MBB: NC State 88- Duke 74 Post Game Thread

[BlueintheFace]

Keep it civil...

[FerryFor50]

This was more about how well NCSU shot and played than how poorly Duke played. Defensively, they weren't all there, but overall, it wasn't a terrible showing. State just couldn't miss....

[BlueintheFace]

State shot 58% (a lot of them jumpers) and Smith abused Plumlee early on. They just were on fire and hit those late ridiculous shots you need to pull off an upset. Kudos to them

[CLW]

total defensive let down by just about everyone that touched the floor. they looked slow and made so.... many mental mistakes it was ugly. combine that with another poor shooting tonight and this team had no chance to get out of NC State with a W.

[Kfanarmy]

I thought they seemed meek right from the tip off...even when they made a little run, no emotion. Have to have some emotion, even on someone elses court if you're going to compete.

[dyedwab]

at least we weren't exposed as fundamentally flawed. We just had a game of uninspired and silly basketball.

No fight on defense, bad shot selection, unforced turnovers....

...at least everything is correctable...

[jipops]

Duke didn't play tonight, or should I say didn't compete. Not at all. This game wasn't remotely competitive.

[DevilHorns]

Scheyer was off today with decision-making, singler was tossing up shots that were not high%. only nolan showed up tonight. IMO, i think miles should've got more minutes but i think his very early play got him benched and zoubs played decently but i guess no poorly enough to let miles have another shot.

[Duke79UNLV77]

He had a very similar stretch last year. Given their modest athleticism, Singler and Scheyer need to be consistently superb shooters to be great players. So far in their careers, they just aren't.

Also, how few minutes did our "most talented player," according to Bilas and others, receive, not to mention his brother?

[Son of Mojo]

Bad defense/State hitting improbable shots combined with only our big 3 scoring but not shooting well = loss. There needs to be a step-up in our game by Saturday night. Were the Plumlees and Dawkins even out there (yes, I know they were, I mean figuratively)?? Only positive that may come from this game is getting a fire lit under Coach and the kids to not underperform for the rest of the year. NEXT.

[KShip21]

"at least Carolina lost"- from poster in the in game thread

after Saturday we could be sitting right next to them in the standings. Not so funny anymore is it?

[PumpkinFunk]

They came to play, we didn't. It showed most of the game that we were hurt, looking ahead to Clemson, and just did not come physically or mentally prepared. State jumped out to an early lead and got a crowd behind them, and it just got worse and worse for us from that point on.

[SCMatt33]

I don't think that this is one of those losses that "exposes" something specific that other teams can exploit going forward (though I'd imagine that there will be some practice time spent on rotating in help defense), but it certainly hurts.

State gets all the credit in the world for playing lights out while we were, well, flat (to keep it civil).

This loss may haunt us on selection Sunday specifically. State is outside the RPI top 100 as of now and I'd imagine will hover around that mark for the rest of the year. That goes down as a "bad loss" by the committee and if we're on the edge of one seed line to the next (1-2 or 2-3 depending on the rest of the season), it could very well be what bumps us down. It could, and I stress could, be like that question on a test where you mistakenly filled in the wrong bubble and you went from an A- to a B+ because of it.

[BlueintheFace]

Duke didn't play tonight, or should I say didn't compete. Not at all. This game wasn't remotely competitive.

you are wrong, i mean... that is all

[-bdbd]

Very disappointing. I didn't watch the whole thing, but am eager to see the box score. Seemed like the refs did us no favors either. This was just an awful performance by our guys though. State worked harder than us. NCSU was playing mostly out of their minds. That State three with 1 on the shot clock and around 6 min to go - with the lead down to 8 - that was killer! And a total prayer. NCSU just wanted it more. Everything down the stretch just seemed to bounce their way -- loose balls, rebounds, close ref calls, and 60% FT shooters making all their FT's, while our guys (with higher season %) kept missing... Bleeech!!!

I just hope this result lights a fire for us, like Clemson did last year...
It better.





:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Kane]

Where are all of those on this board now that were so concerned by Plumlees' "woofing" against Wake a.k.a. playing with an attitude? Attitude wins games and State's Smith showed attitude and almost beat Duke by himself while Duke's bigs allowed him to dominate inside. We could have used some attitude, but we had none this game. We need some Laettner like attitude every game and we had it against Wake, but not against State. If I want to see a "boys choir" I'll go to Duke Chapel, but the rest of time I want to see attitude and if that includes "woofing" then so be it!

[VaDukie]

I don't know if we can take anything away from that other than we can't turn the ball over like that and State couldn't miss. How much of it was their shooting touch and how much was our inability to defend dribble penetration is unknown.

[jv001]

We made a pretty good team look great by not playing defense coming out of the dressing room. Miles looked worse tonight than he did at times last year. I guess the patting on the back after the Wake game did nothing to help him get ready for tonights game. As for the Big 3, only Nolan actually played well. That's all I'm going to say until I've had a night to sleep on this game. Go Duke!

[devildownunder]

Ferryfor50, this team's stock and trade needs to be its defense, so this was the worst kind of performance because the team let down at what is most important to it. Yes, state shot well, but they had wide open shots all night. Anybody would shoot well under those circumstances.

I refuse to believe this team will continue to play this poorly. The last couple of times out, at home anyway, were relatively easy. Maybe they got away from thinking about defense so much. I hope that's the case anyway. There is enough to work with on this team that tonight's loss can be a springboard, a la the game in charlottesville on the way to the first NC in '90-'91.

Oh, one other bright spot, Singler at least made some noise. He looked marginally more comfortable offensively.

And that WAS a great shot by Nolan.

[arydolphin]

It's only one game in the middle of January, but I really hope that's the worst game that Duke plays all year. The defense allowed way too many easy buckets, and the offense was not clicking tonight. It was really distressing to see how perimeter-oriented the offense was throughout the game.

Stats of the game: Duke 22-57 from the field (38.6%), NC State 32-55 from the field (58.2%). Also alarming: Mason Plumlee 1-3 for 2 points, Miles Plumlee 0-1 for 0 points. For Duke, the big 3: 61 points, the rest of the team: 13 points.

[dukelifer]

State played a great game- lets face it- it was their night. This road thing is getting into Duke's head. But the only positive is that this Duke team is not peaking early. The reality is that Duke is a good team but they are not coming together on the road and it is hard to figure out why. They are blowing out teams by 20+ at home and neutral courts and falling apart on the road. The talent is there. They need leadership and toughness to overcome the runs by opponents in hostile arenas. Once they figure it out - they will be okay. The only question is when will they figure it out. But give credit to State- they could not miss- and when you shoot like that- it is hard to come back.

[Dukie4Life]

Just a bump in the lovely road we all call the ACC. Even though we have the big three in Scheyer, Singler and Smith, we are still a relatively young team...that has showed on our road games...

Its a learning experience and we have just about the only coach left that is not on a stress related leave of absence or blaming his team for not knowing what play to run on the 54th day of practice.

I believe this showing will not be seen again... I guess I'm also really hoping!

[Coballs]

at least we weren't exposed as fundamentally flawed. We just had a game of uninspired and silly basketball.

No fight on defense, bad shot selection, unforced turnovers....

...at least everything is correctable...

I agree. We didn't show a particular achilles heel......because all aspects of the game were horrible.

I would have been much better off watching re-runs of Jersey Shore tonight.

[dukebsbll14]

I have to disagree. From my perspective, we didn't show up. We took State as a 1-3 ACC team and they took advantage of that. Give State credit, they hit some pretty tough shots (a lot of them), but they also got a lot of wide open looks under the basket which could have easily been stopped, had we played with a little bit of fire

[Daniel tosh]

This loss will make for an interesting game in Clemson on Saturday with both teams coming off of losses.I hope we handle the full court pressure better then than we did tonite.It will be a tough one Saturday.

[SCMatt33]

Just for the record, I'm surprised to see that most people seem to be on the same page about, this. Don't know what that means. Probably nothing, but interesting nonetheless.

[Greg_Newton]

0-3 on the road now... starting to get a little worried about that. This is first game that's really bothered me... like another posted said, it's the first game where we didn't even really compete. And to (arguably) the worst team in the ACC.

Next play, I guess.

[jipops]

I agree. We didn't show a particular achilles heel......because all aspects of the game were horrible.

I would have been much better off watching re-runs of Jersey Shore tonight.

Unfortunately the Achilles heel we've shown is playing on someone else's home floor.

[SCMatt33]

Unfortunately the Achilles heel we've shown is playing on someone else's home floor.

...Which is why I'm glad that the most important games are on neutral courts, and with no North Carolina sites, we shouldn't have to deal with UNC fans in the tourney.

[Coballs]

Unfortunately the Achilles heel we've shown is playing on someone else's home floor.

Hahaha. I stand corrected. Time to start counting those road games. At least the NCAA tourney games are at neutral sites.

[_Gary]

It's only one game in the middle of January...

I tempted to say I've heard that before, but I won't. :D

In all seriousness, because Duke teams over the last several seasons have had a penchant for starting strong and then fading I'm not going to blame anyone that is having horrible flashbacks after this performance. If Duke can come out and get wins in 3 of it's next 4 then I'll say this was probably an anomaly. If not we might be looking at a problem.

[Saratoga2]

Was able to watch the game on Raycom by loading computer software.

Our defense wasn't able to stop NC State, who stayed on fire for the entire game (poor defense). Nothing coach K tried worked well tonight, but really it was up to the kids to get something done. Nolan played well throughout and both Jon and Kyle played hard but didn't shoot well. Kyle was also trying to force the ball inside and can be stripped when doing it. Jon's shot just isn't falling with regularity.

As far as our big men, they were not much of a factor tonight. Zoubek was the best of the lot. Thomas played hard but sometimes I don't see him as thinking through what he does. When he dove for a ball for iinstance, it would have gone to a Duke player and instead went back to NC State. Neither Plumlee nor Dawkins did much notable.

My takeaways are, 1) we haven't proven we can win on the road, 2) we were overly optimistic in thinking the team rated up there in the top 8, 3)The ACC has some good teams and on any given night, Duke can lose and probably will lose several more along the way.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Can we get a motm Tread so i can vote for Nolan?

[CDu]

Well, that was awful. A lot of credit goes to NC State for playing the game of their lives, but we certainly didn't do much to help ourselves.

NC State really made our bigs look awful. Smith dominated everybody he faced. Horner stretched the defense. Teams with good-shooting bigs will probably give us trouble, as our bigs don't defend well away from the basket.

As good as Mason looked last game, he made a couple of really dumb fouls and aside from a nice dunk was completely nonexistent. The Plumlees obviously still have a lot of developing to do, as they were complete nonfactors. Thomas managed 12 rebounds, but he had a pretty poor game as well with a lot of mental errors. Zoubek played pretty well on the offensive end, but he just couldn't defend the quicker Smith and it showed.

The backcourt didn't play particularly well either. Scheyer had another tough night. He shot 5-16 from the floor and only had one assist. But beyond that, he just didn't look comfortable out there. He did hit some open threes, which was nice. But I have to wonder if he's sick or something. He just didn't seem to have his usual cool/calm/collected game out there. In fairness, he did end up with 21 thanks to a lot of free throws. But given how dependent the offense is on him, he's got to do more in terms of creating for the bigs. And on defense he just couldn't seem to stay in front of either Degand or Gonzalez. Those two got in the lane a ton, and it set up a lot of easy baskets.

Singler again struggled with his shot, but I really liked that we made a concerted effort to post him up. He attacked the basket a lot and was rewarded with 12 free throw attempts. He did a good job of preventing shots for Wood for a while, too. It was nice to see him play well.

It's just a frustrating game. The team looked so tough and together against Wake and seemed so uncomfortable and disorganized against State. We'll have to play a LOT better to compete with Clemson at Clemson. The Plumlees have got to play smarter and make themselves a positive factor.

Hopefully Coach K can get this ship righted quickly, because we're going to face possibly our toughest road games of the season this weekend and next weekend.

[dukebsbll14]

Maybe we should have taken all our shots in mid-air like Nolan? :)

[Vincetaylor]

We should have played more than one road game before conference play started. Playing just one was very poor scheduling. Now we have to figure out how to win on the road during the heart of our conference schedule. It won't be easy and it will result in some losses which will hurt our seeding and our chances in the NCAA tourney. The neutral site games early on are ok, but the first couple rounds of the NCAA tourney will feel more like an away game to Duke since everyone always cheers against them and for the underdog.

[Oriole Way]

The road trend continues. We will see what kind of adjustments Duke makes and how effective they are against Clemson; our next home game will not mean much in terms of results because we are a different team at home.

This could be a good loss only if Coach K finally changes his rotation and starts using his bench. More importantly, a few changes need to be desperately made.

1. Lance Thomas needs to hit the bench permanently, just like Greg Paulus last season. He needs to play less, as I have been advocating since the beginning of the season. More on this point in my next post.

2. Mason Plumlee must be inserted into the starting lineup. He and his brother need to play together for as many minutes as humanly possible. I would play them together until they foul out.

3. Andre Dawkins and Ryan Kelly need more minutes. Andre, 20+ minutes a game, Kelly 10+ minutes a game. I don't care if they get lost on defense, or if they make mistakes. They need game action in order to learn from their mistakes and get used to the speed and skill-level of ACC play. They are the future of this program, and they should be developed with that in mind. I'm pretty sure Dawkins and Kelly didn't even take a single shot tonight. They can't walk over to Coach K and demand to be put in the game. And they can't run over to Jon Scheyer and Kyle Singler and yank the ball out of their hands. Smith, Scheyer, and Singler need to look for Dawkins and Kelly as well, especially Dawkins. We're playing too much 3-on-5 basketball and it's one reason we struggle on the road. The team that lost tonight was a bunch of upperclassmen who looked like they couldn't keep up, regardless of how well NC State played. They got all the minutes they could handle and they got blitzed. Now it's time to let the give the younger kids minutes.

I'm interested to see if K can make these changes. Otherwise, several more losses, more than are necessary given the talent and experience level of this team, will plague us in the future.

[DukeBlueNikeShox]

Duke didn't play tonight, or should I say didn't compete. Not at all. This game wasn't remotely competitive.

X_____________________________________________

[KyDevilinIL]

Just for the record, I'm surprised to see that most people seem to be on the same page about, this. Don't know what that means. Probably nothing, but interesting nonetheless.

I think it just means this is one of those games that leaves folks with very little to say. Duke was awful tonight – anyone who tries to suggest otherwise isn't being honest with themselves, frankly – but it happens. It's January. The main disappointment is State's margin of victory.

Three time's a story, as they say, and this road thing is now an issue. But if this squad has any designs on becoming a real contender in March, it's gotta show something on Saturday. I'm sure the guys are ticked off, but being ticked off doesn't do much good unless you're able to channel it into something good.

[superdave]

We might have had one problem exposed tonight - we cant guard a quick power forward who can score both facing up and back to the basket. Smith ate up Z, Miles, Lance, Mason and maybe the rest of our roster.

Our guys need to watch some game film of how lazy their D was tonight. Everyone was a step slow.

We should have slowed the game down and packed in the lane to make NCSU hit jumpers (which they likely would have hit).

I'd like to call a few guys out individually, but I'm no Roy Williams so I'll refrain!

[UrinalCake]

I had the misfortune of watching the game at a bar full of State fans. They spent about 90% of their total viewing time hollering "Duke foul! Duke foul!" repeatedly. At no point did they ever display any remotely intelligent basketball knowledge. Nor did they ever actually cheer for their team or recognize the good things their players were doing. Sometimes they'd mix it up and say "That's a Duke foul, but they never call fouls on Duke."

Pretty much the same thing that I've seen whenever I've gone to a game at the RBC center. It's like I'd like to feel happy for their fans for getting a great win for their program, but I just can't because they're such idiots.

[ajgoodfella7]

The only positive I can get is at least they didn't play like this with Quincy Miller and Hairston in the crowd... I know I'm reaching here.

Obviously this just wasn't their night in any phase of the game.

[RockyMtDevil]

Losing by double digits to a really under-talented State team exposes this team for what it really is. We don't have the talent we are all used to people, so get used to it. Nothing against our guys, I love them, they are great kids but we don't have elite talent anymore and so we will lose our share of games we shouldn't.

It's time for some type of change, not sure what it is, but something has to change....Can anyone in their right mind think this team can move past the Sweet 16? Really good teams don't let a pathetic State team beat them by 14. I don't care who you are.

[The Kidd]

I think the road losses MUST end at Clemson. They need to stuff some of the "home" swagger in their suitcases and bring it on the road. No more excuses!!

[dukeblue225]

Bad game defensively and offensively. I'm more worried about the 58% shooting of NC State above all else. Although it is unpleasant to see such a poor performance from the Plumlees.

We have lost all 3 of our true road games this year. I really thought we would be a better road team, so far, due to our leadership and experience. On the bright side I didnt expect Singler to play so poorly, and once he does well be a different team. I think we'll be fine offensively and win some road games.

Saturday at LittleJohn will be Redemption City,

[jipops]

...Which is why I'm glad that the most important games are on neutral courts, and with no North Carolina sites, we shouldn't have to deal with UNC fans in the tourney.

Yes but a game like this and more like it could have severe effects on our seeding. Now we could be looking at facing somebody like Pittsburgh in the 2nd round and here we go again...

We didn't lose to a pretty good team. This was domination from a bad team. We were dreadful once again offensively but I care very little about that compared to how horrid the defense was. We started seeing the defense go way down hill late last season. Are we seeing this again?

[FireOgilvie]

What a weird game and a surprisingly poor effort. The interior defense was the worst I've seen. Also, 8 points from the bench. Scheyer had 1 assist. Lance had 12 rebounds.

Andre hasn't hit a 3 since 2009 (6 games).

[CDu]

We might have had one problem exposed tonight - we cant guard a quick power forward who can score both facing up and back to the basket. Smith ate up Z, Miles, Lance, Mason and maybe the rest of our roster.

Our guys need to watch some game film of how lazy their D was tonight. Everyone was a step slow.

We should have slowed the game down and packed in the lane to make NCSU hit jumpers (which they likely would have hit).

I'd like to call a few guys out individually, but I'm no Roy Williams so I'll refrain!

The irony is that we have played well against that type of player. We shut down Booker in Cameron. But for whatever reason, we couldn't handle Smith at all.

[jimrowe0]

I really hate when I have to walk out of a game after losing at the home teams floor, but we will bounce back. Overall state played about as good as they will play all year. Honestly though I just didn't see the fight in our team tonight.

[Oriole Way]

Losing by double digits to a really under-talented State team exposes this team for what it really is. We don't have the talent we are all used to people, so get used to it. Nothing against our guys, I love them, they are great kids but we don't have elite talent anymore and so we will lose our share of games we shouldn't.

It's time for some type of change, not sure what it is, but something has to change....Can anyone in their right mind think this team can move past the Sweet 16? Really good teams don't let a pathetic State team beat them by 14. I don't care who you are.

I would disagree. I think this team is more talented than any Duke team since 2005-2006. There are just lineup flaws and offensive issues which need to be addressed.

[arydolphin]

Hahaha. I stand corrected. Time to start counting those road games. At least the NCAA tourney games are at neutral sites.

News flash: practically every game that Duke plays in the NCAA Tourney is going to sound like a road game, the Duke hatred runs that deep. I saw it last year at the Sweet 16 in Boston.

[BlueintheFace]

There were defensive breakdowns and the Plumlees are still disappointingly inconsistent, but I don't understand this "lack of effort" talk.

[RockyMtDevil]

At least Kyle will be back next year. I think we've all expected too much of him and he seems to have hit a major wall.

Good starting 5 next year, with some actual NBA talent. Wow, who would have thought it??????

[dbd4ever]

We might have had one problem exposed tonight - we cant guard a quick power forward who can score both facing up and back to the basket. Smith ate up Z, Miles, Lance, Mason and maybe the rest of our roster.

What about Trevor Booker? We did a real good job on him the first game against Clemson.

[The Kidd]

Hey RockyMT,

I don't think it's lack of talented players. We have talented players. I think what we lack is on the mental side of the game. The desire and will to win ALL THE TIME. To mentally be in the game ALL THE TIME. No Duke team is perfect, BUT the prior Duke "elite" teams refused to lose. They had the "it" factor. This team seems to have "it" at home but not on the road.

[CDu]

There were defensive breakdowns and the Plumlees are still disappointingly inconsistent, but I don't understand this "lack of effort" talk.

Yeah, I don't think there was a lack of effort. There was a lack of cohesion and organization. But not a lack of effort.

I was just shocked at how easily Degand and Gonzalez were getting into the lane. They blew by Scheyer and Smith quite frequently, and it set up a lot of easy layups.

And of course we had no answer for Tracy Smith. The guy posted up Thomas and the Plumlees, and drove around Zoubek with equal success.

[gwwilburn]

Paging Mr. Jumbo...Paging Mr. Jumbo...

[jipops]

Can we get a motm Tread so i can vote for Nolan?

I don't see anyone worthy of a vote tonight. Nolan's D sucked too. Maybe Kyle, atleast he showed a little effort on that end of the floor. Then again... nope... not gonna vote in this one.

[dukelifer]

Yes but a game like this and more like it could have severe effects on our seeding. Now we could be looking at facing somebody like Pittsburgh in the 2nd round and here we go again...

We didn't lose to a pretty good team. This was domination from a bad team. We were dreadful once again offensively but I care very little about that compared to how horrid the defense was. We started seeing the defense go way down hill late last season. Are we seeing this again?

Was it horrible against Wake? Have you seen a trend recently or just tonight?

[Masticatee]

I had the misfortune of watching the game at a bar full of State fans. They spent about 90% of their total viewing time hollering "Duke foul! Duke foul!" repeatedly. At no point did they ever display any remotely intelligent basketball knowledge. Nor did they ever actually cheer for their team or recognize the good things their players were doing. Sometimes they'd mix it up and say "That's a Duke foul, but they never call fouls on Duke."

Pretty much the same thing that I've seen whenever I've gone to a game at the RBC center. It's like I'd like to feel happy for their fans for getting a great win for their program, but I just can't because they're such idiots.

I assume it's their standard response due to being the least regarded of the three (Duke and Carolina being the others). Take any cheap shots you can at big brother I guess.

[huied]

The only thing that gives me solace is the fact that State played out of their minds today. I haven't seen a team play so well in a long while, and some of the shots they hit were just crazy. That long 3 with Miles in his face? Sometimes you've just got it.

As someone mentioned in the chat, we can't blame it all on bad defense - they didn't dunk everything. It's just too bad they didn't miss any of the non-dunks.

Still...ick...

[AlaskanAssassin]

At least Kyle will be back next year. I think we've all expected too much of him and he seems to have hit a major wall.

Good starting 5 next year, with some actual NBA talent. Wow, who would have thought it??????

There are some pros and cons with having Kyle back. If Kyle comes back, the recruitment of Ross and other SFs would look elsewhere. But having Kyle back could definitely put us as a national contender.

[loran16]

This is not meant to be an angry rant. And please don't yell at me for naysaying so early. I know, i know, the team can get better. But I have to get this out.

I'm 22. I was born in 87 and was not a duke fan growing up. I hated the NBA and didn't care about basketball in general. I was a rabid Mets and Islander fan, as well as a Jet Fan (much less rabid). But college basketball was nothing to me.

In 1998, my brother got a scholarship to Duke. And i, being a sports junkie, began to follow Duke. And honestly, my brother couldn't have picked a better 4 years unless he was born 9 years earlier. I watched as Duke went to the title game in the 98-99 season, rebuilt the next year, and then won it in 00-01.

My Sister then followed my brother and went to Duke. She was there from the 01-02 season through the 04-05 season. She saw a Final Four (04) team and understandably this was a step down from my bro's experience.

All this time I became a rabid duke fan, to the point where high school kids would joke about it to me (and at me) in school.

-------------------------------------------------------
In 2005, I was a senior in high school and was deciding between Duke and Washington University in St. Louis. In all honesty, i was probably leaning toward Duke anyhow, but I was sure when my brother took me to the NCAA Regional (S16 and E8) that year at Syracuse, which featured UNC AND NC State. Needless to say, it was a depressing result, but well...the passion and energy of the atmosphere made it clear. I was going to Duke, where I was going to watch my team from inside Cameron make the F4 and win championships.

Needless to say, that didn't happen. As some of you might know from hearing me in snrubchat, i get loud and angry when things go bad. So the LSU game cost me my voice Frosh year. Sophomore year was beyond depressing (the Paulus-Mcroberts sophomore year). Each year Duke was supposed to be better, make it back to prominence. Each year, they failed, and the naysayers, who i took very personally, mocked us.

I graduated last May, and always felt like i missed out. But still, this was my team. Scheyer, Lance, Zoo, Smith, Singler, even Miles....I knew these players. They were the guys I had watched. And they were supposed to be great again, even without G. So I figured I'd accept this as if i was still there.....

and now here we are. The season's far from over, but I stand here depressed. I just spent two hours in the law school library because i don't get ESPN360 elsewhere watching Duke play horribly, with me unable to scream due to well....being in a library. And as friends and I texted back in forth about the game as it went on, I just sat there with my head down in the 2nd half. Will I ever see the return of the team that brought me such passion? that made me such a crazed fan? That gave my brother a bonus for coming to Duke instead of Yale?

I know....it's a long season. But here I am, a Duke alum who thought he was going to see greatness. And 4 years later, nothing. A half-year after that, still not there yet. And i just can't keep from basically crying.

[BlueintheFace]

It's time for some type of change, not sure what it is, but something has to change....Can anyone in their right mind think this team can move past the Sweet 16? Really good teams don't let a pathetic State team beat them by 14. I don't care who you are.

Now children, gather round. What we have here is a fine specimen of the Post-Loss Negative Nancy. This specific breed is easy to spot as they like to demand changes and extrapolate wildly based on one game. If we wait around this thread long enough we might get to see the very rare, Player-Bashing Negative Nancy. They have become quite rare for obvious reasons, but every once in a while they get caught in a trap following a loss....

[devildownunder]

There were defensive breakdowns and the Plumlees are still disappointingly inconsistent, but I don't understand this "lack of effort" talk.

well, the defensive effort sure looked pretty abysmal. We just didn't look all that interested in making good rotations out on the shooter or down to seal of the basele or whatever. We didn't move our feet w/any urgency, to my eye anyway.

[WiJoe]

loran16: you need to see dr. melfi

[jipops]

The only thing that gives me solace is the fact that State played out of their minds today. I haven't seen a team play so well in a long while, and some of the shots they hit were just crazy. That long 3 with Miles in his face? Sometimes you've just got it.

As someone mentioned in the chat, we can't blame it all on bad defense - they didn't dunk everything. It's just too bad they didn't miss any of the non-dunks.

Still...ick...

I disagree. State did not play out of their minds. They missed a ton of open layups. A good team would have shot 80% against us tonight. The pts in the paint stat has to be ridiculous for State. You would be hard pressed to recall a more meek defensive performance than this game. The offense has terrible, but the lack of D killed us in this one.

[dukelifer]

At least Kyle will be back next year. I think we've all expected too much of him and he seems to have hit a major wall.

Good starting 5 next year, with some actual NBA talent. Wow, who would have thought it??????

A wall? Really? His shooting is down- but the kid is contributing in many ways. I see no wall- just someone who is still uncomfortable with his new role - and someone who just two days ago was wearing a brace on his shooting hand- geez.

[KyDevilinIL]

This is not meant to be an angry rant. And please don't yell at me for naysaying so early. I know, i know, the team can get better. But I have to get this out.

I'm 22. I was born in 87 and was not a duke fan growing up. I hated the NBA and didn't care about basketball in general. I was a rabid Mets and Islander fan, as well as a Jet Fan (much less rabid). But college basketball was nothing to me.

In 1998, my brother got a scholarship to Duke. And i, being a sports junkie, began to follow Duke. And honestly, my brother couldn't have picked a better 4 years unless he was born 9 years earlier. I watched as Duke went to the title game in the 98-99 season, rebuilt the next year, and then won it in 00-01.

My Sister then followed my brother and went to Duke. She was there from the 01-02 season through the 04-05 season. She saw a Final Four (04) team and understandably this was a step down from my bro's experience.

All this time I became a rabid duke fan, to the point where high school kids would joke about it to me (and at me) in school.

-------------------------------------------------------
In 2005, I was a senior in high school and was deciding between Duke and Washington University in St. Louis. In all honesty, i was probably leaning toward Duke anyhow, but I was sure when my brother took me to the NCAA Regional (S16 and E8) that year at Syracuse, which featured UNC AND NC State. Needless to say, it was a depressing result, but well...the passion and energy of the atmosphere made it clear. I was going to Duke, where I was going to watch my team from inside Cameron make the F4 and win championships.

Needless to say, that didn't happen. As some of you might know from hearing me in snrubchat, i get loud and angry when things go bad. So the LSU game cost me my voice Frosh year. Sophomore year was beyond depressing (the Paulus-Mcroberts sophomore year). Each year Duke was supposed to be better, make it back to prominence. Each year, they failed, and the naysayers, who i took very personally, mocked us.

I graduated last May, and always felt like i missed out. But still, this was my team. Scheyer, Lance, Zoo, Smith, Singler, even Miles....I knew these players. They were the guys I had watched. And they were supposed to be great again, even without G. So I figured I'd accept this as if i was still there.....

and now here we are. The season's far from over, but I stand here depressed. I just spent two hours in the law school library because i don't get ESPN360 elsewhere watching Duke play horribly, with me unable to scream due to well....being in a library. And as friends and I texted back in forth about the game as it went on, I just sat there with my head down in the 2nd half. Will I ever see the return of the team that brought me such passion? that made me such a crazed fan? That gave my brother a bonus for coming to Duke instead of Yale?

I know....it's a long season. But here I am, a Duke alum who thought he was going to see greatness. And 4 years later, nothing. A half-year after that, still not there yet. And i just can't keep from basically crying.

Sir, I tend to swing toward the pessimistic, but this is just crazy talk.

[The Kidd]

From now on before each road game, Coach K should take the team to the stadium and measure all the dimensions of the court and the hoop just to prove that it really is the same as Cameron Indoor Stadium. Maybe THAT will inspire our team on the road.

[dukelifer]

This is not meant to be an angry rant. And please don't yell at me for naysaying so early. I know, i know, the team can get better. But I have to get this out.

I'm 22. I was born in 87 and was not a duke fan growing up. I hated the NBA and didn't care about basketball in general. I was a rabid Mets and Islander fan, as well as a Jet Fan (much less rabid). But college basketball was nothing to me.

In 1998, my brother got a scholarship to Duke. And i, being a sports junkie, began to follow Duke. And honestly, my brother couldn't have picked a better 4 years unless he was born 9 years earlier. I watched as Duke went to the title game in the 98-99 season, rebuilt the next year, and then won it in 00-01.

My Sister then followed my brother and went to Duke. She was there from the 01-02 season through the 04-05 season. She saw a Final Four (04) team and understandably this was a step down from my bro's experience.

All this time I became a rabid duke fan, to the point where high school kids would joke about it to me (and at me) in school.

-------------------------------------------------------
In 2005, I was a senior in high school and was deciding between Duke and Washington University in St. Louis. In all honesty, i was probably leaning toward Duke anyhow, but I was sure when my brother took me to the NCAA Regional (S16 and E8) that year at Syracuse, which featured UNC AND NC State. Needless to say, it was a depressing result, but well...the passion and energy of the atmosphere made it clear. I was going to Duke, where I was going to watch my team from inside Cameron make the F4 and win championships.

Needless to say, that didn't happen. As some of you might know from hearing me in snrubchat, i get loud and angry when things go bad. So the LSU game cost me my voice Frosh year. Sophomore year was beyond depressing (the Paulus-Mcroberts sophomore year). Each year Duke was supposed to be better, make it back to prominence. Each year, they failed, and the naysayers, who i took very personally, mocked us.

I graduated last May, and always felt like i missed out. But still, this was my team. Scheyer, Lance, Zoo, Smith, Singler, even Miles....I knew these players. They were the guys I had watched. And they were supposed to be great again, even without G. So I figured I'd accept this as if i was still there.....

and now here we are. The season's far from over, but I stand here depressed. I just spent two hours in the law school library because i don't get ESPN360 elsewhere watching Duke play horribly, with me unable to scream due to well....being in a library. And as friends and I texted back in forth about the game as it went on, I just sat there with my head down in the 2nd half. Will I ever see the return of the team that brought me such passion? that made me such a crazed fan? That gave my brother a bonus for coming to Duke instead of Yale?

I know....it's a long season. But here I am, a Duke alum who thought he was going to see greatness. And 4 years later, nothing. A half-year after that, still not there yet. And i just can't keep from basically crying.

You need to learn patience- we all did. You have not seen bad- just look at K's second and third years. Now that would make you cry.

[wilko]

I really hate when I have to walk out of a game after losing at the home teams floor, but we will bounce back. Overall state played about as good as they will play all year. Honestly though I just didn't see the fight in our team tonight.

I know what you mean. I was there too. And I went with a buddy, a poster on the board (who shall remain nameless), but I hereby dub him my bad luck token :-p

That was a big steaming pile of a game, no zip, no hustle, no pizazz, no W.
State Fans were very hospitable for the most part, hats off to them for that. When they dont miss and you cant put it in the cup, it makes for a long nite.

The only Duke player who acted like he had a fire was Kyle.
So those of you worried about his hand, fear not. Thats about the best silver lining I got right now..

Now I just hope the Pack makes themselves useful and beats UNC.. THIS year.

[BlueintheFace]

This is not meant to be an angry rant. And please don't yell at me for naysaying so early. I know, i know, the team can get better. But I have to get this out.

I'm 22. I was born in 87 and was not a duke fan growing up. I hated the NBA and didn't care about basketball in general. I was a rabid Mets and Islander fan, as well as a Jet Fan (much less rabid). But college basketball was nothing to me.

In 1998, my brother got a scholarship to Duke. And i, being a sports junkie, began to follow Duke. And honestly, my brother couldn't have picked a better 4 years unless he was born 9 years earlier. I watched as Duke went to the title game in the 98-99 season, rebuilt the next year, and then won it in 00-01.

My Sister then followed my brother and went to Duke. She was there from the 01-02 season through the 04-05 season. She saw a Final Four (04) team and understandably this was a step down from my bro's experience.

All this time I became a rabid duke fan, to the point where high school kids would joke about it to me (and at me) in school.

-------------------------------------------------------
In 2005, I was a senior in high school and was deciding between Duke and Washington University in St. Louis. In all honesty, i was probably leaning toward Duke anyhow, but I was sure when my brother took me to the NCAA Regional (S16 and E8) that year at Syracuse, which featured UNC AND NC State. Needless to say, it was a depressing result, but well...the passion and energy of the atmosphere made it clear. I was going to Duke, where I was going to watch my team from inside Cameron make the F4 and win championships.

Needless to say, that didn't happen. As some of you might know from hearing me in snrubchat, i get loud and angry when things go bad. So the LSU game cost me my voice Frosh year. Sophomore year was beyond depressing (the Paulus-Mcroberts sophomore year). Each year Duke was supposed to be better, make it back to prominence. Each year, they failed, and the naysayers, who i took very personally, mocked us.

I graduated last May, and always felt like i missed out. But still, this was my team. Scheyer, Lance, Zoo, Smith, Singler, even Miles....I knew these players. They were the guys I had watched. And they were supposed to be great again, even without G. So I figured I'd accept this as if i was still there.....

and now here we are. The season's far from over, but I stand here depressed. I just spent two hours in the law school library because i don't get ESPN360 elsewhere watching Duke play horribly, with me unable to scream due to well....being in a library. And as friends and I texted back in forth about the game as it went on, I just sat there with my head down in the 2nd half. Will I ever see the return of the team that brought me such passion? that made me such a crazed fan? That gave my brother a bonus for coming to Duke instead of Yale?

I know....it's a long season. But here I am, a Duke alum who thought he was going to see greatness. And 4 years later, nothing. A half-year after that, still not there yet. And i just can't keep from basically crying.
http://depressionintrospection.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/zoloft.jpg

[buckshot]

Well, at least Zoubek won the beard-off...

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

On this day the better team was State. Let's just hand it to them for playing a great game. We are still a work in progress. I don't think we have become the team we will be come March. I am sad, but I am far from despondent. We have a lot of excitement ahead, a lot of ball left to be played.

GO DUKE!

[loran16]

You need to learn patience- we all did. You have not seen bad- just look at K's second and third years. Now that would make you cry.

Oh i know. And god knows what i'd do if i saw those years. I'd have a freaking breakdown.

The mets the last few years have made me gain some distance from them....stop caring as much. I DONT WANT to do that with Duke. But...well....

[Coballs]

This is not meant to be an angry rant. And please don't yell at me for naysaying so early. I know, i know, the team can get better. But I have to get this out.

I'm 22. I was born in 87 and was not a duke fan growing up. I hated the NBA and didn't care about basketball in general. I was a rabid Mets and Islander fan, as well as a Jet Fan (much less rabid). But college basketball was nothing to me.

In 1998, my brother got a scholarship to Duke. And i, being a sports junkie, began to follow Duke. And honestly, my brother couldn't have picked a better 4 years unless he was born 9 years earlier. I watched as Duke went to the title game in the 98-99 season, rebuilt the next year, and then won it in 00-01.

My Sister then followed my brother and went to Duke. She was there from the 01-02 season through the 04-05 season. She saw a Final Four (04) team and understandably this was a step down from my bro's experience.

All this time I became a rabid duke fan, to the point where high school kids would joke about it to me (and at me) in school.

-------------------------------------------------------
In 2005, I was a senior in high school and was deciding between Duke and Washington University in St. Louis. In all honesty, i was probably leaning toward Duke anyhow, but I was sure when my brother took me to the NCAA Regional (S16 and E8) that year at Syracuse, which featured UNC AND NC State. Needless to say, it was a depressing result, but well...the passion and energy of the atmosphere made it clear. I was going to Duke, where I was going to watch my team from inside Cameron make the F4 and win championships.

Needless to say, that didn't happen. As some of you might know from hearing me in snrubchat, i get loud and angry when things go bad. So the LSU game cost me my voice Frosh year. Sophomore year was beyond depressing (the Paulus-Mcroberts sophomore year). Each year Duke was supposed to be better, make it back to prominence. Each year, they failed, and the naysayers, who i took very personally, mocked us.

I graduated last May, and always felt like i missed out. But still, this was my team. Scheyer, Lance, Zoo, Smith, Singler, even Miles....I knew these players. They were the guys I had watched. And they were supposed to be great again, even without G. So I figured I'd accept this as if i was still there.....

and now here we are. The season's far from over, but I stand here depressed. I just spent two hours in the law school library because i don't get ESPN360 elsewhere watching Duke play horribly, with me unable to scream due to well....being in a library. And as friends and I texted back in forth about the game as it went on, I just sat there with my head down in the 2nd half. Will I ever see the return of the team that brought me such passion? that made me such a crazed fan? That gave my brother a bonus for coming to Duke instead of Yale?

I know....it's a long season. But here I am, a Duke alum who thought he was going to see greatness. And 4 years later, nothing. A half-year after that, still not there yet. And i just can't keep from basically crying.

Dude, get a grip. My advice to you would be to start drinking heavily.

[micah75]

Now children, gather round.

James Taylor?


What we have here is a

Strother Martin?


caught in a trap....

Elvis?

[dbd4ever]

Now children, gather round. What we have here is a fine specimen of the Post-Loss Negative Nancy. This specific breed is easy to spot as they like to demand changes and extrapolate wildly based on one game. If we wait around this thread long enough we might get to see the very rare, Player-Bashing Negative Nancy. They have become quite rare for obvious reasons, but every once in a while they get caught in a trap following a loss....

Thank you!! I was waiting for someone to say something about this blatant negativity. The sky is not falling! We need to regroup and move on. And hopefully Saturday, every player will remember what it felt like last year when coach called the timeout and the end of the game in Littlejohn to let them listen to the crowd as we were dismantled by Clemson. So that when they step on that floor, that memory and tonight's game will be fresh on their minds and we can destroy Clemson once more and break this road streak.

[Duvall]

But I have to get this out.

loran, I am not saying this to mock you, but if you are this upset over a January loss you may want to do some serious thinking about your priorities, and maybe talk to someone.

[JonnyWonder]

http://depressionintrospection.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/zoloft.jpg

You're sure clever, but not particularly funny if you know someone who is clinically depressed and on Zoloft.

I do agree though that the post you were responding to is a bit overdramatic. We were flat this game. It happens, even to championship teams. Our guys were probably pretty drained from the Wake rugby match, hopefully we'll see them bounce back Saturday.

I'd also love to see someone get even remotely warm from behind the arc. Like, maybe two in a row. That would be super.

[bird]

Now I just hope the Pack makes themselves useful and beats UNC.. THIS year.

you know, what really frosts me about getting upset in conference is you know state will roll over for unc

[KyDevilinIL]

OK, well, off to bed. Deep breath. We're gonna be OK. I'm less annoyed by this loss than either Wisconsin or Tech, but I'm not sure why I feel that way. Maybe it's because we were just so bad tonight. I can't imagine that's gonna be the rule from here on out.

That said, Saturday might end up being the key to the whole thing. I'm actually glad we're on the road again after this game. Heck, I wish we could stay on the road until we win a couple, just to shake off this silly road funk and move on to more important matters.

LGD.

[Crisker]

The road trend continues. We will see what kind of adjustments Duke makes and how effective they are against Clemson; our next home game will not mean much in terms of results because we are a different team at home.

This could be a good loss only if Coach K finally changes his rotation and starts using his bench. More importantly, a few changes need to be desperately made.

1. Lance Thomas needs to hit the bench permanently, just like Greg Paulus last season. He needs to play less, as I have been advocating since the beginning of the season. More on this point in my next post.

2. Mason Plumlee must be inserted into the starting lineup. He and his brother need to play together for as many minutes as humanly possible. I would play them together until they foul out.

3. Andre Dawkins and Ryan Kelly need more minutes. Andre, 20+ minutes a game, Kelly 10+ minutes a game. I don't care if they get lost on defense, or if they make mistakes. They need game action in order to learn from their mistakes and get used to the speed and skill-level of ACC play. They are the future of this program, and they should be developed with that in mind. I'm pretty sure Dawkins and Kelly didn't even take a single shot tonight. They can't walk over to Coach K and demand to be put in the game. And they can't run over to Jon Scheyer and Kyle Singler and yank the ball out of their hands. Smith, Scheyer, and Singler need to look for Dawkins and Kelly as well, especially Dawkins. We're playing too much 3-on-5 basketball and it's one reason we struggle on the road. The team that lost tonight was a bunch of upperclassmen who looked like they couldn't keep up, regardless of how well NC State played. They got all the minutes they could handle and they got blitzed. Now it's time to let the give the younger kids minutes.

I'm interested to see if K can make these changes. Otherwise, several more losses, more than are necessary given the talent and experience level of this team, will plague us in the future.

I know you've been beating this drum against some difficult blue-kool aid opposition, but I'm with you -- yet again. Finding that perfect seven man rotation at mid-season, and riding your three horses home has not worked in the past and is not working now. Maybe with three very special athletes, but we don't have that. I am seeing deja vu.

[Exiled_Devil]

He had a very similar stretch last year. Given their modest athleticism, Singler and Scheyer need to be consistently superb shooters to be great players. So far in their careers, they just aren't.



I'm sorry, are you saying that Scheyer is in a slump because he isn't shooting 50% from the floor? That has got to be one of the wildest expectations I have ever heard.

Tonight was disappointing, but people, this doesn't mean that we will flame out in the NCAA tourney. What disappoints me is the idea that we just looked past NCState and suffered for it.

As for Smith - the announcers were speculating that we were not doubling him at all. I think maybe he was overlooked for Woods.

[BlueintheFace]

you know, what really frosts me about getting upset in conference is you know state will roll over for unc

but will it matter? ;)

[Coballs]

News flash: practically every game that Duke plays in the NCAA Tourney is going to sound like a road game, the Duke hatred runs that deep. I saw it last year at the Sweet 16 in Boston.

Thanks for the News Flash arydolphin. I've been a Duke fan for twenty years. I am keenly aware that most college basketball fans hate Duke.

[SCMatt33]

News flash: practically every game that Duke plays in the NCAA Tourney is going to sound like a road game, the Duke hatred runs that deep. I saw it last year at the Sweet 16 in Boston.

I've been in the band at every tournament game the past two years. That's not necessarily true. The UNC fans were worse at the Texas game than 'Nova fans in Boston. It was purely a numbers thing. Also being a Philly guy, I can tell you that the Philly fans in Boston are about as bad as it will get otherwise. We're a pretty nasty bunch. It won't be as bad in a place like Jacksonville.

[devildownunder]

From now on before each road game, Coach K should take the team to the stadium and measure all the dimensions of the court and the hoop just to prove that it really is the same as Cameron Indoor Stadium. Maybe THAT will inspire our team on the road.

Win.

[RelativeWays]

Loran suffers from 2007 Season PTSD. Most Duke fans have it but don't realize. That extra glee you feel for Huckleberry taking it on the nose for his season full of media relations gafs and the losing streaks? Feels better than the typical UNC Schadenfreude feels, doesn't it? Well. thats because you have 2007 Season PTSD. I still have a hard time watching the games because of it.

[fgb]

what seems really crappy is that the elite teams of this season--texas, kentucky, kansas--all have had off games against inferior teams, but they pull it together enough to win at the end. it's that old nfl adage: great teams start by winning the games they're supposed to win.

[BlueintheFace]

Duke will win @ Clemson. That is all I have to say about that.

[dukelifer]

Hi,

On this day the better team was State. Let's just hand it to them for playing a great game. We are still a work in progress. I don't think we have become the team we will be come March. I am sad, but I am far from despondent. We have a lot of excitement ahead, a lot of ball left to be played.

GO DUKE!
Every year folks claim the regular season means nothing and what matters is March. If a supposedly lousy State team can beat Duke than a decent Duke team that has been blowing people out at home can go on a 6 game run in March. This team has the pieces- if it stays healthy to pull it together. All that really matters is that Duke ends the season well and if that means taking some lumps - so be it. Nobody here would be jumping for joy if this Duke team beat State tonight by 20 and then limped into the tourney. We just have to see how this will play out. Right now- not a perfect team- but we have seen glimpses of greatness and that should give hope for a late run. BTW- UNC is looking weak right now and I still think they could make a run as well. It can turn on a dime folks. Sometimes the lightbulb goes off.

[JonnyWonder]

I know you've been beating this drum against some difficult blue-kool aid opposition, but I'm with you -- yet again. Finding that perfect seven man rotation at mid-season, and riding your three horses home has not worked in the past and is not working now. Maybe with three very special athletes, but we don't have that. I am seeing deja vu.

Have to strongly disagree with you guys. Bench Lance? This guy has been a spark plug and a defensive stopper enough that he's earned his minutes. Not to mention he's developing a pretty little midrange jumper that can keep the defense honest. So he had a bad night, so did the entire team.

I agree that we need a spark and have been stagnating the past few years - and I think the Plumlees will have many more nights like Wake than like tonight - but benching Lance is knee-jerk backseat coaching at its worst.

[fgb]

you know, what really frosts me about getting upset in conference is you know state will roll over for unc

i don't want for us to need state to roll over.

[Oriole Way]

Oh i know. And god knows what i'd do if i saw those years. I'd have a freaking breakdown.

The mets the last few years have made me gain some distance from them....stop caring as much. I DONT WANT to do that with Duke. But...well....

It will get better next season. And I really think the team will improve this season, but if you experienced the Paulus years, I don't understand why you'd be down about this season's team. You've basically seen the same thing for the third time in a row, and 4 seasons ago was the worst Duke team since 1995.

You will see this team improve drastically once Lance Thomas gets benched, not unlike Greg Paulus getting bench last year. So there is still hope for an enjoyable ride for this season.

[SoCalDukeFan]

The talent level of this team is an interesting question. There are certainly talented players. However there is no Jason Williams. Had to see who is going to do well in the Association.

I guess the good news is that no one should realistically be leaving early.

The other good news is that the talent level declines each year in college basketball.

I personally think that K will have the team ready for tournament play. Success will depend on the matchups.

SoCal

[CDu]

I'm sorry, are you saying that Scheyer is in a slump because he isn't shooting 50% from the floor? That has got to be one of the wildest expectations I have ever heard.

Tonight was disappointing, but people, this doesn't mean that we will flame out in the NCAA tourney. What disappoints me is the idea that we just looked past NCState and suffered for it.

As for Smith - the announcers were speculating that we were not doubling him at all. I think maybe he was overlooked for Woods.

Well, Scheyer has in fact been in a shooting slump - just not as long a slump as the previous poster was suggesting. Look at his FG numbers in each of the past four games (all under 40%).

He's still had some good point totals and until tonight was still getting plenty of assists. But he has been in a FG shooting slump of late.

[dukelifer]

Oh i know. And god knows what i'd do if i saw those years. I'd have a freaking breakdown.

The mets the last few years have made me gain some distance from them....stop caring as much. I DONT WANT to do that with Duke. But...well....

Never should have become a Mets fan- I could have told you that.

[Greg_Newton]

On the bright side, a miserable, embarrassing loss is good every now and then to remind me that my happiness has become way too dependent on a group of 18-22 year olds I have never met. :)

I wonder when the last time Duke and Carolina lost on the same night was? This feel weird...

[UrinalCake]

Anyone else feel like coach k was lettng his guys play through the tough spots instead of calling a timeout? Time will tell how much the players will learn from this game.

[CDu]

Duke will win @ Clemson. That is all I have to say about that.

We'll have to play a lot better than we did tonight if we're going to do so. Hopefully you end up being correct.

[-jk]

You need to learn patience- we all did. You have not seen bad- just look at K's second and third years. Now that would make you cry.

Amen. I went to each and every home game and pretty much every away game those two seasons. (Tickets were, well, easy; the drives home weren't.)

The early '70s weren't much fun either.

This was one game. Not a good game, by any stretch, but one game in a generally good season. There are several hundred schools out there that would trade places in a heartbeat.

We have some talented kids, and they're good kids. We have one of the best coaches in the business. We'll survive this game.

And I, too, am not satisfied with tonight's performance, but games like this do happen to all but the most dominant teams. We're good this year, but we're not dominant. I do trust that it'll be a learning experience for them, though. (At least it's a short trip home.)

-jk

[devildownunder]

Oh i know. And god knows what i'd do if i saw those years. I'd have a freaking breakdown.

The mets the last few years have made me gain some distance from them....stop caring as much. I DONT WANT to do that with Duke. But...well....

loran, man, I feel your pain -- especially since I'm a diehard Mets fan, too. (AAAAUGH!) But you've gotta give yourself just enough distance from the game and the team to keep from letting it get you so down. It's about developing an even keel. Your highs will still be plenty high enough but the lows won't be SO bad they make you antagonize people who used to be/want to be your friends, or engage in other self-destructive behavior.

I realized during the 2000 Subway Series that I had grown to seriously dislike one of my best friends just because he was a Yankee fan. That's when I finally realized I had to gain some perspective. If a junkie like me did it, anybody can.

Peace

[Oriole Way]

I know you've been beating this drum against some difficult blue-kool aid opposition, but I'm with you -- yet again. Finding that perfect seven man rotation at mid-season, and riding your three horses home has not worked in the past and is not working now. Maybe with three very special athletes, but we don't have that. I am seeing deja vu.

I am beating this drum because I am right.

In 2001, K sort of won with a 7-man rotation, but as you pointed out, he had a stable full of NBA players including 2 of the best players who ever wore the Duke uniform. And K only played Casey Sanders because of Carlos Boozer's injury. Who knows what might have happened if Boozer never suffered the injury and Duke used a rotation which no doubt would have been a player shorter had it not been for Sanders starting and getting more minutes. I'd like to think the team with the most talent still would have won, but 2002 and 1999 are evidence to the contrary.

[Duvall]

In 2001, K sort of won with a 7-man rotation, .

Sort of won?

[tecumseh]

Needless to say, that didn't happen. As some of you might know from hearing me in snrubchat, i get loud and angry when things go bad. So the LSU game cost me my voice Frosh year. Sophomore year was beyond depressing (the Paulus-Mcroberts sophomore year). Each year Duke was supposed to be better, make it back to prominence. Each year, they failed, and the naysayers, who i took very personally, mocked us.

I graduated last May, and always felt like i missed out. But still, this was my team. Scheyer, Lance, Zoo, Smith, Singler, even Miles....I knew these players. They were the guys I had watched. And they were supposed to be great again, even without G. So I figured I'd accept this as if i was still there.....

and now here we are. The season's far from over, but I stand here depressed. I just spent two hours in the law school library because i don't get ESPN360 elsewhere watching Duke play horribly, with me unable to scream due to well....being in a library. And as friends and I texted back in forth about the game as it went on, I just sat there with my head down in the 2nd half. Will I ever see the return of the team that brought me such passion? that made me such a crazed fan? That gave my brother a bonus for coming to Duke instead of Yale?

I know....it's a long season. But here I am, a Duke alum who thought he was going to see greatness. And 4 years later, nothing. A half-year after that, still not there yet. And i just can't keep from basically crying.

Sorry to rant....BUT....missed out on what exactly. Getting to see tremendous games in an atmosphere that is second to none, that may be the best venue in the United States for seeing a sporting event and you have the best seat in the house. Missed out on what? I live in Illinois and this is why I love Cubs fans, they are Cubs fans win lose or draw with the emphasis on the losing. It's not like Duke has had losing seasons and nothing to cheer for. I LOVE watching Scheyer, if you understand basketball he is joy to watch. A national championship? I am sorry but if it takes a national championship to make you happy, you are not much of a fan.

[jv001]

I am beating this drum because I am right.

In 2001, K sort of won with a 7-man rotation, but as you pointed out, he had a stable full of NBA players including 2 of the best players who ever wore the Duke uniform. And K only played Casey Sanders because of Carlos Boozer's injury. Who knows what might have happened if Boozer never suffered the injury and Duke used a rotation which no doubt would have been a player shorter had it not been for Sanders starting and getting more minutes. I'd like to think the team with the most talent still would have won, but 2002 and 1999 are evidence to the contrary.

Add 2004 to that as well. Go Duke!

[Oriole Way]

Sort of won?

Sort of - emphasis on 7-man rotation.

[CDu]

Sort of won?

I think he/she meant "won with sort of a 7-man rotation" rather than "sort of won..."

[jipops]

Amen. I went to each and every home game and pretty much every away gamI do trust that it'll be a learning experience for them, though. (At least it's a short trip home.)

-jk

I'm wondering if K is pulling a '92 and the learning experience is continuing in a practice right now.

[-jk]

I know everyone is a little on edge tonight. Let's keep it civil, though.

-jk

[Crisker]

Have to strongly disagree with you guys. Bench Lance? This guy has been a spark plug and a defensive stopper enough that he's earned his minutes. Not to mention he's developing a pretty little midrange jumper that can keep the defense honest. So he had a bad night, so did the entire team.

I agree that we need a spark and have been stagnating the past few years - and I think the Plumlees will have many more nights like Wake than like tonight - but benching Lance is knee-jerk backseat coaching at its worst.

Yes, pretty much benched is the word. The stagnation begins with the failure to develop younger more talented players, even when they are off or are being boneheaded. When a player (or two or three) with superior upside gets yanked, or loses valuable learning minutes, because we need a "defensive stopper" with no offensive game because he has earned his minutes, we are in trouble. I've seen this trouble before, and it hasn't helped us. God bless Lance and Zoubs, but at some point you must stop playing for the immediate win and look forward to the tournament(s) future, where superior athletes always win out.

[Kedsy]

Boy, our defense was terrible tonight. That's why we lost the game and hopefully it won't happen again.

For those who persist on hammering Lance and Z, while it's true neither of them shone on defense today, Lance shot 2 for 3 and had 12 (!) rebounds, and Z had 6 points and 9 rebounds in 14 minutes. Those are pretty decent stats by both of them, and calling for either of them to be permanently benched or to lose minutes seems kind of silly to me.


Yes but a game like this and more like it could have severe effects on our seeding. Now we could be looking at facing somebody like Pittsburgh in the 2nd round and here we go again...


Pittsburgh is currently the #11 team in the country (although they did lose to Georgetown today). They have a 2 seed in Lunardi's latest bracketology. So to meet them in the 2nd round we'd have to be a 7 seed. I know you're disappointed in our team effort tonight, but to say something like that is just a little bit ludicrous.


At least Kyle will be back next year. I think we've all expected too much of him and he seems to have hit a major wall.

Good starting 5 next year, with some actual NBA talent. Wow, who would have thought it??????

Well, I'm not yet convinced Kyle will stay, but whether he does or not, this year's team has between 5 and 7 players (Kyle, Nolan, MP2, MP1, Andre, Jon, Ryan) who will someday make an NBA roster. Is that not enough "actual NBA talent" for you?


I don't think it's lack of talented players. We have talented players. I think what we lack is on the mental side of the game. The desire and will to win ALL THE TIME. To mentally be in the game ALL THE TIME. No Duke team is perfect, BUT the prior Duke "elite" teams refused to lose. They had the "it" factor. This team seems to have "it" at home but not on the road.

1988: 7 losses; Final Four
1989: 8 losses; Final Four
1990: 9 losses; final game
1991: 7 losses; national champ
1994: 6 losses; final game
2004: 6 losses; Final Four

So unless you're not counting those teams as "elite," they didn't refuse to lose all the time, did they?


I graduated last May, and always felt like i missed out. But still, this was my team. Scheyer, Lance, Zoo, Smith, Singler, even Miles....I knew these players. They were the guys I had watched. And they were supposed to be great again, even without G. So I figured I'd accept this as if i was still there.....

and now here we are. The season's far from over, but I stand here depressed. I just spent two hours in the law school library because i don't get ESPN360 elsewhere watching Duke play horribly, with me unable to scream due to well....being in a library. And as friends and I texted back in forth about the game as it went on, I just sat there with my head down in the 2nd half. Will I ever see the return of the team that brought me such passion? that made me such a crazed fan? That gave my brother a bonus for coming to Duke instead of Yale?

I know....it's a long season. But here I am, a Duke alum who thought he was going to see greatness. And 4 years later, nothing. A half-year after that, still not there yet. And i just can't keep from basically crying.

Don't cry. Winning is nice, but that's not where the passion comes from. During my four years, Duke made zero (0) Final Fours, and only got past the 1st game of the NCAA tourney once (actually only made the NCAA tourney twice in my four years). But we were just as passionate and crazy (maybe moreso) than the students in the "golden" years. We had the passion because Duke was our school and we loved basketball.


Losing by double digits to a really under-talented State team exposes this team for what it really is. We don't have the talent we are all used to people, so get used to it. Nothing against our guys, I love them, they are great kids but we don't have elite talent anymore and so we will lose our share of games we shouldn't.

It's time for some type of change, not sure what it is, but something has to change....Can anyone in their right mind think this team can move past the Sweet 16? Really good teams don't let a pathetic State team beat them by 14. I don't care who you are.

Yeah, we should apply for Division II status immediately.

And I know there are plenty of other examples, but here's one I remember from my own college days: on January 27, 1979 Magic Johnson's Michigan State team lost by 18 to a Northwestern team that was significantly worse than this year's NC State team and yet the Spartans went on to win the national championship. So you're wrong; really good teams sometimes lose to not-so-good teams, occasionally by large margins.

[91devil]

How about the next game we have fewer pre-game posts about the UNC game and more interest in our game?

It's called 'Karma'. More people seemed to care about the UNC vs Wake game than did our game.

Awful.

[devildownunder]

I'm wondering if K is pulling a '92 and the learning experience is continuing in a practice right now.

Wasn't that in '91, post Charlottesville?

[1999ballboy]

A lot of people are probably going to say that Tracy Smith beat us that game, but he didn't. There are a number of ways we could have won despite our incapacity to adequately defend him.

1. Don't turn the ball over.
2. Screen well, shoot threes, and establish a perimeter game.
3. Establish a scoring option in the post.
4. Shut down the NCSU perimeter offense (remember the "let Tyler get his points" game in Chapel Hill a couple years back? It worked.)
5. Hope NCSU doesn't make ridiculous shots.

1. State's press frazzled us, and the early turnovers were probably the main factor that set the tone for the rest of the game. Our ballhandling in the first fifteen minutes of the game was atrocious.
2. I didn't see many guys looking to get open on the perimeter. Our minutes, highlighted by only 14 for Zoubs, 13 for Mason, and 10 for Miles, along with nearly 40 apiece for our big 3 and 9 for Andre Dawkins, indicated that we played a good amount of small ball. That sometimes works when we get dominated by an opposing big man, but not if we're not moving the ball around.
3. Well, Miles Plumlee is usually our best scoring option in the post, and K benched him for most of the first half and the start of the second, presumably for poor defense. I have to question this move when he's coming off a career game against Wake, we need someone to score inside, and no one else was doing much better on D anyway. When he came back in, his defense did look a little better but he got very few touches on offense and I had to wonder whether he was playing with his tail between his legs.
4. Forgot to mention- it only worked against Carolina because Wayne Ellington went something like 1-12 from beyond the arc that game. They were pretty hard to shut down, whether it was Gonzalez shooting impossible threes, Farnold passing extremely well, or Horner working in every way possible and playing a Singler-esque kind of game. It's hard to beat a team that's clicking like that.
5. Too bad.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I am reading about how bad State is on some other posts. Is that really true? They lost on a heart breaker to Florida. That put them in a bit of funk, but they have some nice pieces, and they were playing at home. Maybe they wanted it more tonight and we still haven't learned to be as intense as we need to be on the road?

GO DUKE!

[Kfanarmy]

They need to stuff some of the "home" swagger in their suitcases and bring it on the road. No more excuses!!
Need to show some confidence and agressiveness on the road...

[Duvall]

Hi,

I am reading about how bad State is on some other posts. Is that really true? They lost on a heart breaker to Florida. That put them in a bit of funk, but they have some nice pieces, and they were playing at home. Maybe they wanted it more tonight and we still haven't learned to be as intense as we need to be on the road?

GO DUKE!

Well, aside from Boston College they're the worst team left on Duke's schedule. So there's that.

[devildownunder]

How about the next game we have fewer pre-game posts about the UNC game and more interest in our game?

It's called 'Karma'. More people seemed to care about the UNC vs Wake game than did our game.

Awful.

I'll admit that pre-tipoff I was licking my chops at the prospect of being able to post "Duke wins and UNC loses, that's called a good night." as my facebook status for the second time in a week.

Somehow, though, I think our awful D had more to do w/the loss.

[Troublemaker]

Between the Wiscy game and this game, I think we've uncovered a matchup problem for our defense. Namely, an offense with big men that can shoot from outside and make precise passes. NC State picked us apart and while I think there was a lack of defensive energy which was mentioned by the coaches and players in the postgame, irrespective of that, the Wolfpack would've still caused matchup issues for Duke with the particular talent they have. The key is that Wood and Horner are very good outside shooters. They spread us out allowing Tracy Smith, who is their leading scorer, to operate 1-on-1 inside. The spread also allowed their guards to penetrate and backdoor us with impunity since the help defense is too far away to recover in time and challenge. Duke's defense collapses if the help isn't getting there in time, and that's what we saw tonight.

Flipping to the other side of the court, once again, the offense struggled on the road. We're too much of a jumpshooting team that can't penetrate well enough and whose bigs don't score back-to-basket well enough. Jumpshots go down easy in the comfortable shooting environs of Cameron but they miss a lot on the road with an unfamiliar shooting background Therefore, we need to start using Kyle Singler even more in the post. The only consistent offense we generated tonight was when Kyle got the ball in the post. He's our best postscorer, hands down, with nice touch and post moves, and if we want to be able to go on the road and find consistent offense, he needs to post up a heck of a lot more than he's been doing this season.

[Oriole Way]

For those who persist on hammering Lance and Z, while it's true neither of them shone on defense today, Lance shot 2 for 3 and had 12 (!) rebounds, and Z had 6 points and 9 rebounds in 14 minutes. Those are pretty decent stats by both of them, and calling for either of them to be permanently benched or to lose minutes seems kind of silly to me.

I have always called for Zoubek to get less minutes, but he played well tonight and he has been an offensive rebounding beast all season. He has settled into a nice role, and the ~15 minutes a game he has been getting recently are actually exactly what he should be getting. He is coming off the bench... that's exactly where he needs to be and I have no problem with that.

Lance, however, also needs to be on the bench, and he's getting entirely too many minutes. As I have said in the past, Thomas has a clear history of playing his best in November and December against inferior, out of conference competition. Yes, he has improved this season overall, but that does not mean he needs to be starting. Even after Thomas had a great start to the season, I got into a huge argument with Jumbo over how Thomas will be much less affective against ACC teams, and how Thomas has shown that he deteriorates considerably when the opposition goes from smaller, slower, and less talented to bigger, faster, stronger, and BETTER. Lance does not have adequate post moves for ACC play. I hope you saw that tonight. There were two pivotal plays where Lance couldn't make a simple post move and he turned the ball over. His inability to get up a decent shot combined with a turnover in those situations were devastating considering Duke really needed scores at those points.

Furthermore, Thomas was responsible for a bad turnover early in the first half. He was inbounding the ball on the baseline, and he had Scheyer wide open to his left. For some reason, he didn't hit him right away, and instead he hesitated and wound up passing it to Smith, who in turn caught the pass on a jump and made a mediocre pass back back to Thomas, who fumbled it and turned it over. On the next Duke inbounds possession, Andre Dawkins somehow turned it over (the TV coverage was shoddy and cut back too late to see what happened). I also blame that turnover on Thomas, because if Thomas had gotten the ball to his point guard like he should have on the previous Duke possession, Dawkins wouldn't have been in a position to turn the ball over again under his own basket.

I have watched basketball for decades and I can evaluate talent. Thomas will not cut it starting as this team's power forward, or 4, or "player" as Coach K will have it, or whatever you want to call him. If Duke wants to take the next step as a team, both Plumlees need to be starting alongside each other. The time is now, and the future is now, because the Plumlees are the future, and Lance is a senior leader who has had many chances and plenty of playing time. Just like Greg Paulus, I expect Lance to come off the bench and still give 100% and be a great representative of Duke. And just like with Greg, I will be thankful that he did.

[Philsfan]

I was there tonight and to me, overall the guys just looked tired from the get-go. From what I listened to, K said as much in his post-game comments. And, of course, State made some shots that had no business going in.

[Coballs]

How about the next game we have fewer pre-game posts about the UNC game and more interest in our game?

It's called 'Karma'. More people seemed to care about the UNC vs Wake game than did our game.

Awful.

I agree with you about paying less attention to Carolina, unless they're on the same court as Duke. Although it's always enjoyable to see Carolina lose, the big picture is that they've won 2 of 5 NCs and are ready to reload once again. They could lose every game the rest of this season, but it wouldn't really mean all that much because when it's their time to be elite again in 1-2 years I'm sure that they will be. I really hope that the same holds true for Duke.

[gumbomoop]

Game not televised where I am this eve, so I guess I was lucky.

I am with those who have posted, "Stuff happens; State couldn't miss, we should all calm down; our guys will bounce back, etc." But I'm also with those disappointed in reduced minutes for DD, and no min for RK. [Admittedly, on one of the "highlights" I saw this eve, DD got lost on D, giving Horner an open lay-up.]

Surprised though not horrified by this unanticipated loss, I'm reluctantly forced to reconsider my pre-season ACC predictions. I had Duke/UNC as clear top-tier, challenged possibly by talented GaTech, and then a "middle-muddle" of Clemson, Wake, FSU, Md, maybe BC. I though State and UVa were clearly bottom-tier. Suffice it to say that each of those teams has been a surprise so far.

It sure looks like the top-tier is Duke, Clemson, GaTech, and Wake, and a 4-way tie at 10-6 doesn't seem all that improbable. I'm having difficulty believing UNC is playing so poorly, but if it walks like a duck......

If someone were to say, "Maybe it will be a 6-team tie for 1st at 9-7," well, even that would seem to "make sense" just at this moment.

I'm going to assume the "real Duke" will win a few on the road, and wind up tops at 11-5, but even that is less than the 13-3 finish I vaguely predicted after the GaTech loss. It sure is true that any road win is gold. To win Sat eve at Littlejohn would be the gold standard. The next play looms large.

Congrats to State for an inspired game, and to Sid. I trust K will praise Sid and his guys, and will be forthright about what went awry for the Devils.

[Kfanarmy]

Said it before I think but on top of confidence, Duke HAS to have an outside threat to relive pressure on the interior...In the 2nd half there were moments where NCState had three and four men in the paint on defense...someone needs to get hot on the outside when that is occuring, the interior was just packed at times in the 2nd half...

[moonpie23]

this game should humble our step for a bit.......I was there and it did seem like we had ZERO enthusiasm....

and ZERO leadership.....


let's hope it gets corrected....




oh, yeah....and UNC LOST AGAIN..... YAY

[dukestheheat]

State shot extremely well and we simply didn't. We had little answer for their inside game and this does trouble me somewhat; look for Duke to bounce right back, though. Was at the game tonight.

dth.

[Troublemaker]

In the end, I still think very highly of this team, especially vis a vis a very weak national field. We're one of the five best teams in the country. I really do believe that. But on defense, the big lineup is susceptible to teams that can spread us, and on offense, we need to get the ball into the post to Kyle Singler much more because that's one of the few ways this team can generate high percentage shots consistently.

[Oriole Way]

Also, for the record, I am NOT pinning this loss squarely on Lance Thomas. The entire team played terribly on both sides of the ball.

But one of the problems I have seen with this team all season is not fielding our best starting 5 (post- return of Mason Plumlee), in addition to a poor rotation and distribution of minutes where talented players who could be helping this team now aren't getting enough of a chance to develop and contribute. I feel very strongly that the best way for Duke to start improving as a team would be to remove Thomas from the starting lineup and play the Plumlees together as much as possible.

[Kedsy]

I have watched basketball for decades and I can evaluate talent. Thomas will not cut it starting as this team's power forward, or 4, or "player" as Coach K will have it, or whatever you want to call him. If Duke wants to take the next step as a team, both Plumlees need to be starting alongside each other. The time is now, and the future is now, because the Plumlees are the future, and Lance is a senior leader who has had many chances and plenty of playing time. Just like Greg Paulus, I expect Lance to come off the bench and still give 100% and be a great representative of Duke. And just like with Greg, I will be thankful that he did.

I hear you, and when Mason is ready (which he isn't yet) I expect Lance to come off the bench and I won't have a problem with it, but I also expect him to play 20+ minutes off the bench. I realize he didn't play great defense tonight, but (a) he played better defense than either Plumlee; (b) he has (in my opinion) played excellent defense for most of the year, with his best effort against Booker and Clemson (not against a slow, terrible OOC team); and (c) even in a "poor" outing he managed to pull down 12 rebounds tonight. I don't think anybody expects him to be a post scorer, but he was 2 for 3 tonight when he chose to take his shot. And finally, yes, he had 3 turnovers tonight, but so did Kyle, and Nolan had 2 (and they both played a few more minutes than Lance did, but not that many more). I just think you're being too hard on Lance.

[gwwilburn]

My pessimistic self says: This loss concerns me. Every year, it seems we hit a wall somewhere in conference play. I'm not saying this is it, but the current Duke team is displaying signs of it. Last year this time, we had one loss, were on the verge of a #1 ranking, and playing in a much more difficult ACC. I hope I am wrong, but the future isn't bright. Some expect us to win vs. Clemson, but I don't see it happening. We've got seven road games left. It could get ugly.

My optimistic self says: A lot of time is left in the season. The '04 team lost to State and Tech, too. (Though this State might not have Julius Hodge.) We dominated Clemson earlier in the season. Everything should be all right.

[devildownunder]

Also, for the record, I am NOT pinning this loss squarely on Lance Thomas. The entire team played terribly on both sides of the ball.

But one of the problems I have seen with this team all season is not fielding our best starting 5 (post- return of Mason Plumlee), in addition to a poor rotation and distribution of minutes where talented players who could be helping this team now aren't getting enough of a chance to develop and contribute. I feel very strongly that the best way for Duke to start improving as a team would be to remove Thomas from the starting lineup and play the Plumlees together as much as possible.


The Plumlees remain very inconsistent offensively and, even at their best, aren't as good defensively as Thomas, so I don't think you can just push Lance to the end of the bench just yet. I'm usually very much in favor of the idea that you don't really develop until you get the chance to do so on the floor but, in this case, both plumlees are getting minutes so I'm not worried about them stagnating. They're just very young and K doesn't have to live with their youthful mistakes for 30 minutes a night each, so he won't -- and he shouldn't.

[dukestheheat]

^^^^

Troublemaker,

I agree with your post on 'the big lineup being susceptible to teams that can spread us'; we just couldn't contain Smith or Horner. What could we have done to slow these guys down? It just seemed to me that State's whole performance boiled down to those two guys and especially Smith for the first half and cruising in.

dth.

[Wander]

The more I watch college basketball, the more I become convinced that a team that fields (for a majority of minutes) only three of five players who are good on offense or only three of five players who are good on defense can't realistically win the national championship.

[Oriole Way]

I hear you, and when Mason is ready (which he isn't yet) I expect Lance to come off the bench and I won't have a problem with it, but I also expect him to play 20+ minutes off the bench. I realize he didn't play great defense tonight, but (a) he played better defense than either Plumlee; (b) he has (in my opinion) played excellent defense for most of the year, with his best effort against Booker and Clemson (not against a slow, terrible OOC team); and (c) even in a "poor" outing he managed to pull down 12 rebounds tonight. I don't think anybody expects him to be a post scorer, but he was 2 for 3 tonight when he chose to take his shot. And finally, yes, he had 3 turnovers tonight, but so did Kyle, and Nolan had 2 (and they both played a few more minutes than Lance did, but not that many more). I just think you're being too hard on Lance.

I really don't think I'm being too hard on Lance.

As I mentioned (very belatedly) in the Georgia Tech game thread, I really do believe that Miles Plumlee should be getting a lot of credit for Thomas' defensive success up through Clemson. Having a mobile, athletic, shot-blocking big man makes things much easier when you are defending in the post. Zoubek also deserves some credit, because having that kind of size coming as help in the post limits what opposing forwards can do when Lance is guarding them.

Also, Thomas was 2 of 3 from the field tonight, but one of his made baskets was a direct result of his ineptitude and an NC State turnover. At around the two minute mark in the first half, Thomas missed a fairly easy layup when he was rejected by the rim, leading to an NC State fast break. Degand then turned the ball over at the other end of the court. Nolan Smith made a nice pass to Thomas, who was open at the opposite end of the floor only because he either fell after bricking his layup and was just getting down court, or because he was simply late hustling back down the floor.

I find it a little hard to accept that Thomas played better defense than either Plumlee when Lance (33 minutes) got 10 more minutes than the Plumlees combined (10 and 13 minutes). What does it say about Lance's defense that he played a lion's share of the game, and NC State shot lights out the entire time? While the Plumlees didn't play particularly well, they also didn't particularly get any minutes in this game, and I have a hard time understanding that. I think it's another example of K pulling young players too early as punishment for defensive lapses. I think it's a flaw of his and it hurts the team. After all, Lance made a multitude of mistakes tonight and he was free to play the majority of the game. There's an incongruence there which needs to be rectified.

[verga]

a couple of thoughts on tonights game and the season so far. The lack of a true pg was never more evident than tonight. Duke just had no one who could set the offense up and deliver a pass for a layup in crunch time. We are very average athletically and that also showed itself tonight, we were constantly beaten to loose balls and could not finish under the basket. Our zone defense signalled to me that we were incapable of stopping NC State, thats right NC State. This team has to do one thing and that is get tough, they lose to many balls that are stripped from them, they fail to make even the simplest shot under the basket. The season is not lost but this team isn't "special", they may make a run but as far as the national scene, well lets just say, we have a lot of work to do. GTHCGTH

[Kedsy]

I really don't think I'm being too hard on Lance.

You choose to look at the mistakes Lance made and gloss over the good stuff. That's certainly your prerogative. In your posts you have described each of Lance's three turnovers and his only missed shot in great detail, but I haven't noticed one word from you about his oustanding rebounding, for example.

I don't deny he made some mistakes tonight. Nor would I deny that he makes some mistakes in most games. However, I prefer to look at the good stuff and think it outweighs the bad, while hoping at least some of the mistakes get rectified. I suppose it's just a different way of looking at the world.

[Kedsy]

a couple of thoughts on tonights game and the season so far. The lack of a true pg was never more evident than tonight. Duke just had no one who could set the offense up and deliver a pass for a layup in crunch time. We are very average athletically and that also showed itself tonight, we were constantly beaten to loose balls and could not finish under the basket. Our zone defense signalled to me that we were incapable of stopping NC State, thats right NC State. This team has to do one thing and that is get tough, they lose to many balls that are stripped from them, they fail to make even the simplest shot under the basket. The season is not lost but this team isn't "special", they may make a run but as far as the national scene, well lets just say, we have a lot of work to do. GTHCGTH

I'm not saying whether your conclusions are right or wrong, but I think you're drawing way too much from one game. Was the 1991 team "special"? If this board had existed then, I wonder what the post-game commentary would have been after our 17 point shellacking at UVa that year. Actually, I don't wonder at all.

[duke23]

I really don't think I'm being too hard on Lance.

As I mentioned (very belatedly) in the Georgia Tech game thread, I really do believe that Miles Plumlee should be getting a lot of credit for Thomas' defensive success up through Clemson. Having a mobile, athletic, shot-blocking big man makes things much easier when you are defending in the post. Zoubek also deserves some credit, because having that kind of size coming as help in the post limits what opposing forwards can do when Lance is guarding them.

Also, Thomas was 2 of 3 from the field tonight, but one of his made baskets was a direct result of his ineptitude and an NC State turnover. At around the two minute mark in the first half, Thomas missed a fairly easy layup when he was rejected by the rim, leading to an NC State fast break. Degand then turned the ball over at the other end of the court. Nolan Smith made a nice pass to Thomas, who was open at the opposite end of the floor only because he either fell after bricking his layup and was just getting down court, or because he was simply late hustling back down the floor.

I find it a little hard to accept that Thomas played better defense than either Plumlee when Lance (33 minutes) got 10 more minutes than the Plumlees combined (10 and 13 minutes). What does it say about Lance's defense that he played a lion's share of the game, and NC State shot lights out the entire time? While the Plumlees didn't play particularly well, they also didn't particularly get any minutes in this game, and I have a hard time understanding that. I think it's another example of K pulling young players too early as punishment for defensive lapses. I think it's a flaw of his and it hurts the team. After all, Lance made a multitude of mistakes tonight and he was free to play the majority of the game. There's an incongruence there which needs to be rectified.

If you believe the Plumlees deserved minutes over Lance in this game, it's hard to take anything else you say very seriously. Mason committed several silly fouls in the first half and neither Plumlee could stay with Smith. Tracy Smith had 12 points in the first 9+ minutes. He had 11 in the last 30, when Lance had the lion's share of the time. The Plumlees will have many a great game, but unfortunately, neither played their best today. Lance deserved his 33 minutes.

[NYBri]

The early '70s weren't much fun either.


-jk

I was there in the early 70's, and believe me, they made this team look like the Lakers.

[COYS]

I have always called for Zoubek to get less minutes, but he played well tonight and he has been an offensive rebounding beast all season. He has settled into a nice role, and the ~15 minutes a game he has been getting recently are actually exactly what he should be getting. He is coming off the bench... that's exactly where he needs to be and I have no problem with that.

Lance, however, also needs to be on the bench, and he's getting entirely too many minutes. As I have said in the past, Thomas has a clear history of playing his best in November and December against inferior, out of conference competition. Yes, he has improved this season overall, but that does not mean he needs to be starting. Even after Thomas had a great start to the season, I got into a huge argument with Jumbo over how Thomas will be much less affective against ACC teams, and how Thomas has shown that he deteriorates considerably when the opposition goes from smaller, slower, and less talented to bigger, faster, stronger, and BETTER. Lance does not have adequate post moves for ACC play. I hope you saw that tonight. There were two pivotal plays where Lance couldn't make a simple post move and he turned the ball over. His inability to get up a decent shot combined with a turnover in those situations were devastating considering Duke really needed scores at those points.

Furthermore, Thomas was responsible for a bad turnover early in the first half. He was inbounding the ball on the baseline, and he had Scheyer wide open to his left. For some reason, he didn't hit him right away, and instead he hesitated and wound up passing it to Smith, who in turn caught the pass on a jump and made a mediocre pass back back to Thomas, who fumbled it and turned it over. On the next Duke inbounds possession, Andre Dawkins somehow turned it over (the TV coverage was shoddy and cut back too late to see what happened). I also blame that turnover on Thomas, because if Thomas had gotten the ball to his point guard like he should have on the previous Duke possession, Dawkins wouldn't have been in a position to turn the ball over again under his own basket.

I have watched basketball for decades and I can evaluate talent. Thomas will not cut it starting as this team's power forward, or 4, or "player" as Coach K will have it, or whatever you want to call him. If Duke wants to take the next step as a team, both Plumlees need to be starting alongside each other. The time is now, and the future is now, because the Plumlees are the future, and Lance is a senior leader who has had many chances and plenty of playing time. Just like Greg Paulus, I expect Lance to come off the bench and still give 100% and be a great representative of Duke. And just like with Greg, I will be thankful that he did.

I think that the plan at the start of the season was to start both Mason and Miles. Mason's injury prevented that. He missed some of the most important games of the season for acclimating as a freshman and it clearly shows from his slow start after coming back to his inconsistency now. He commits too many silly fouls (which he did against Wake, too, it just didn't matter because he scored so much more), struggles to think and react quickly enough on defense, and needs to pick his spots a little more on offense before he can start. He needs time on the bench watching and observing and being coached (something that I think is WAY too undervalued by many on this board). Plus, obviously practice is important too.

As for our rotation, the only thing I think we really need to do is get Andre a few open looks. We will need his offense at some point and that can earn him a few extra minutes. I feel that coach K knows this, too. Tonight was a bad example because everything went wrong, but in the past two games, K has inserted Andre into the game and the team has gotten him a look or two almost right away. They just haven't been staying down for him. That will change.

You bring up 2001 as a year when we had a short bench but essentially lucked our way to a win on the backs of five NBA players. Ignoring the obvious fact that most NC teams have 3 or more players that will spend at least some time in the NBA, I think an important point is that Casey Sanders learned enough in practice to be a major factor when he was called on to play. I think the same is true for Mason and Miles. They've gotten a lot of burn, each. I don't see how reinforcing bad habits for Mason or encouraging a regression for Miles helps the team now or in the future. The staff, players, and even the national media have all said that the Plumlees, especially Mason, must become major players for this team to reach its ceiling. I think staff is clearly working towards that ceiling. But there's no reason to rush our players.

[Oriole Way]

If you believe the Plumlees deserved minutes over Lance in this game, it's hard to take anything else you say very seriously. Mason committed several silly fouls in the first half and neither Plumlee could stay with Smith. Tracy Smith had 12 points in the first 9+ minutes. He had 11 in the last 30, when Lance had the lion's share of the time. The Plumlees will have many a great game, but unfortunately, neither played their best today. Lance deserved his 33 minutes.

Dennis Horner, who was Thomas' assignment, shot 8-15 from the field for 20 points, so I don't really see how Thomas played great defense either aside from rebounding well.

I saw the Plumlees make mistakes and get pulled. I saw Thomas play mediocre defense, make several crucial mistakes on offense, and get constant minutes in a convincing loss. Feel free not to take anything else I say seriously, but we'll have to agree to disagree here.

[duke23]

Dennis Horner, who was Thomas' assignment, shot 8-15 from the field for 20 points, so I don't really see how Thomas played great defense either aside from rebounding well.

I saw the Plumlees make mistakes and get pulled. I saw Thomas play mediocre defense, make several crucial mistakes on offense, and get constant minutes in a convincing loss. Feel free not to take anything else I say seriously, but we'll have to agree to disagree here.

I believe, though I'm not certain, that Lance was guarding Smith and not Horner for large portions of the 2nd half, especially whenever Zoubek left the game. I certainly don't recall Horner scoring in a situation where I felt Lance was at fault (or anybody else for that matter... the kid just had a good game).

In general, I saw Lance and Z provide effective minutes, despite physical mistakes, and the Plumlees provide less effective minutes, including mental mistakes, such as Mason fouling a jump shooter from behind twice just moments apart. Their minutes in THIS game were deserved on all sides.

The ironic thing is that in general I would agree that I'd like to see the Brothers Plumlee more, but harping on that in this game just doesn't make sense IMO. I apologize for the comment about not taking anything else you say seriously - that was unwarranted - but I get frustrated when I see unequivocal, equally unwarranted criticism of a player whose every minor fault is scrutinized and all positive contributions are ignored or played off (such as the comments about Lance's defense against Booker/Favors).

I look forward to seeing all the big men continue to improve, they've all already done so just since the start of the season. Go Duke!

[NYC Duke Fan]

What this game shows me, and I have been criticized in the past when I posted it, is that this Duke team cannot win a national championship. They are just not consistant enough to win 6 straight games against at least 5 good teams.

That doesn't mean that we will have a poor season, we will not, but we are at best a Sweet 16 or maybe an Elite 8 team come tournament time. I will probably be criticized again for saying so, but I think that I am realistic.

If Duke plays the way it did tonight they will get blown away on Saturday against Georgetown.

[bluesin]

Oriole Way, it seems you have dug in on the, I'm right and everyone else (including the HoF coach with 3 NC's) is wrong and an idiot for not seeing the special things I can see, point of view (if you'll forgive a little judicious paraphrasing of your own statements). I have a few things to say in general, and a few more specific things to say about what you've written.

1) This team did not play well tonight, NCSU came in with a fire lit under them and took it too our players. For whatever reason our guys did not respond well. Blame it on the emotional let down from the Wake game, blame it on the crowd and the hostile arena (I was there and NCSU's fans were ready to play along with their team, and they really played off each other well despite the fans having a marginal grasp of the rules of the game as a whole). Or just blame it on poor play, poor defense as a team and bad shooting against an opponent who was shooting the lights out for pretty much the entire game. Whatever you want to blame it on it happened, and it really doesn't change too much about what kind of team we are now, and it only points to the kinds of things we need to do to improve into the team we can be.

2) This is just a loss, it's not a season ending, fatal flaw exposing, doom and gloom loss. It's a loss to a team that came to play on their home court that could have very well had 3-4 more wins and been 3-1 in ACC play up to this point had a few more bounces gone their way earlier in their season. They went their way this game, and on top of they they executed brilliantly in the half court against our mediocre defense.

3) Your arguments about Lance needing to sit on the bench are logically flawed, in oh so many ways. For one thing you're asserting that Lance (apparently) does not play particularly well on either end of the floor. I would ask Dino, Paul and Oliver how Lance played on the defensive end of those games. I think you'll find they would have been much happier if the foul prone MP's 1&2 had stayed in the game at his expense. (Paul might not care too awful much but only because of the result)

You can say Lance benefits from having Z or one of the athletic Plum brothers on the court with him to cover his mistakes, but you are glossing over some very important things. For one Miles seems to have a reoccurring gap in his basketball knowledge, it's in the part of his brain that remembers he is the help side defense. Mason has a little more latitude from me in forgetting his assignment in the help situation because of his injury and his freshman status, so I'll leave him out of this particular part of the discussion for simplicity's sake. Lance understands how the defensive scheme works, and he knows how to deny a player the ball without gathering touch fouls like they were dollar bills falling from the sky. Miles CAN do this, I've seen him do it. But he can't do it very consistently. Simply put your solution of putting Lance on the bench and playing him much more sparingly takes perhaps our best defender off the floor and puts either one, or both, of our most foul prone and defensively vulnerable bigs on the floor.

In addition, Lance can guard outside of the lane, he can do a servicable to excellent job on a guard should he find himself on the switch guarding a smaller faster player. Miles and Mason both simply cannot do as well at guarding outside the lane, for a number of reasons. Taking Lance out and putting either one of them in would in effect give the other team an area to exploit (it's in the playbook on Duke, switch them till you have a miss-match of a big on the guard or vice versa and use that to your advantage). And don't forget with Lance on the bench that means MP1 Z or MP2 are on the floor at the same time, one post defender who can't guard outside isn't so bad and can be managed, 2 is a much different matter.

Simply stating that Lance's defensive assignment tonight scored a lot of points doesn't actually prove he isn't a better defensive player or worse option than anyone on the court. It could imply that our help side defense was not there and Lance was defending more on his own against a bigger post player, it could illustrate that our ball pressure was not good, or it could illustrate that while he was playing good help defense on ball penetration the penetration itself was successful in this game at opening up the post for NCSU (I would hazard a guess that all three in a combination were the culprit tonight). Nevermind the fact that NCSU had other players in the game who scored points, and at some point Miles or Mason were guarding them when there were in the game (and not on the bench because they were fouling, being ineffective on offense and missing defensive rotations). Without checking I'd venture to guess that some of the points Lance's assignment was responsible for came because of poor help side defense or because he got switched off of him or because he just made a good move in a game where state was playing their offense very well (though I could in fact be totally wrong, it doesn't negate any of my other points if I am especially). I hardly see how ALL of that can be Lance's fault.

I would also ask what exactly you have seen defensively that indicates that Miles or Mason are so much more advanced than Lance that they should eat up his minutes. Was it Miles's stellar game against Wake, where for the first half he was mostly out of position on help? I'm not saying Miles can't defend, or that he shouldn't start or play more, but I have seen little in the way of defense that screams out to me that right now he's superior individually, or as a team member, to Lance.

4) Lance's offense is obviously not exemplary, he's never going to average 12 points a game or "go off" on a team for 20 (though how sweet would that be? :D). I'm not going to advocate that he touch the ball more on offense or that he's being denied opportunities to score by his teammates selfishly not passing to him. At the same time he scored 5 points on 66% shooting tonight. He turned the ball over at the same rate as our other more offensively gifted players, and on a given night one or two of his post turnovers could have been called as fouls or he might not have lost his grip on the ball. (As a side not to anyone still reading this, did it seem to anyone else like the ball had grease on it when we touched it?)

You disregard his one basket on the Nolan pass because it was made while he was upcourt and was an easy to convert bucket. I can understand your reasoning there, even if I don't agree with it (though I do sort of cringe at the implication that he was just strolling back on defense instead). But, you're also advocating more time for MP's 1&2, who's only collective bucket this evening came on Mason's fairly easy transition dunk. So it's ok for Mason to get more playing time, when he gets an easy dunk (and apparently tonight Miles should have gotten playing time because his brother scored while he was sitting on the bench) but when Lance scores an easy basket he's not doing something right? I know Lance isn't as offensively talented as either of them, but tonight NONE of our players outside of the big 3 were scoring, and they were ALL given time and opportunity to play offense.

It's easy to say that Miles and Mason should get more playing time because of their offense, but tonight they fouled too much and didn't produce in the time they had offensively, Lance produced 12 rebounds, 5 points, and played good team defense. He outclassed Miles and Mason (together!) on the floor in the categories that should probably be most important for a big man on both offense and defense.

5) To address Dawkins getting more playing time -- Dawkins doesn't move off the ball particularly well right now. On quite a few plays in the last few games he's been in, and either stood in the corner with his man about 3 feet away or run off one or two screens and not been open for his shot. And when he is open it hasn't fallen. I don't know why he's not moving without the ball well, and as a freshman I'm sure there are many aspects to this particular weakness. However, since his defense is not exactly stellar at this point (during one particular play in the State game during the first half his man ran across the court and was completely open, with Dawkins standing on the low opposite block, he looked up panicked and found him before NCSU did, but still it illustrates the point that his defense is not there for him to be stealing minutes from other players, particularly our guards). I absolutely LOVE the kid, I think he's a good player now, and he'll be a tremendous player in the future. In this game he was not however.

6) I realize I may sound as thought I'm negative on Miles and Mason, and perhaps Dawkins. I'm not trying to be, but I am trying to illustrate that the reasons for advocating they should get more burn and Lance should get less are mostly flawed as you have presented them. If the two of them play significantly better on both ends of the floor (as we all know they can) I have no problem starting them over Lance, and him giving up some of his minutes. But as of right now they aren't there, and they're getting time to show what they can. Jumbo likes to point out that playing time in games and playing time in practice are different animals and they each serve a purpose, and simply saying playing more in a game doesn't mean you'll get better. I happen to agree with him on this quite forcefully.

Miles was not defensively sound in all of his games where he was allowed to play more. But he did produce on the offensive end, and didn't foul as much. The same goes for Mason. That didn't happen in this game, and toward the end the propensity for fouling probably kept them off of the floor over Lance, because we were losing and NCSU was in the bonus, meaning every defensive lapse where they fouled could have resulted in more points for NCSU. I'm not saying this is the absolute reason they weren't on the floor, I have my suspicions as to why they weren't, but it is certainly something I think you should consider.

I don't post on here often. Usually someone who I respect says what I'm thinking, and I find no reason to post something that reads like -- I agree with everything you've said Jumbo/Stray/Mullet/etc. keep up the good work. I think this might be my third post in about 8 years, and apparently I've decided I'm only going to post in post-loss threads in which OW makes points I disagree with. I apologize if it seems this is the case, I recognize that you're a passionate fan, with your own opinions and you want the team to be successful, I can't fault you for that and I applaud your willingness to defend what you think is right. I just happen to think that you are painfully wrong, and it seems to me like you're throwing Lance under the bus without giving him a fair shake. I'll also say I don't much care for your Paulus comments, but he's gone now so I won't get into a fight over that.

Excuse the length and any errors I may have missed in spelling and grammar, it's been a long night and I didn't get home until 1:30 from the game (seriously getting out of that place was worse than losing the game, especially if you drive the wrong way around 440). And please, if I've missed some crucial point, or if there is anything you feel I need to know to understand better let me know, I honestly have no overt hostility and and perfectly willing to listen and/or be proved wrong.

[ice-9]

This is not meant to be an angry rant. And please don't yell at me for naysaying so early. I know, i know, the team can get better. But I have to get this out.

I'm 22. I was born in 87 and was not a duke fan growing up. I hated the NBA and didn't care about basketball in general. I was a rabid Mets and Islander fan, as well as a Jet Fan (much less rabid). But college basketball was nothing to me.

In 1998, my brother got a scholarship to Duke. And i, being a sports junkie, began to follow Duke. And honestly, my brother couldn't have picked a better 4 years unless he was born 9 years earlier. I watched as Duke went to the title game in the 98-99 season, rebuilt the next year, and then won it in 00-01.

My Sister then followed my brother and went to Duke. She was there from the 01-02 season through the 04-05 season. She saw a Final Four (04) team and understandably this was a step down from my bro's experience.

All this time I became a rabid duke fan, to the point where high school kids would joke about it to me (and at me) in school.

-------------------------------------------------------
In 2005, I was a senior in high school and was deciding between Duke and Washington University in St. Louis. In all honesty, i was probably leaning toward Duke anyhow, but I was sure when my brother took me to the NCAA Regional (S16 and E8) that year at Syracuse, which featured UNC AND NC State. Needless to say, it was a depressing result, but well...the passion and energy of the atmosphere made it clear. I was going to Duke, where I was going to watch my team from inside Cameron make the F4 and win championships.

Needless to say, that didn't happen. As some of you might know from hearing me in snrubchat, i get loud and angry when things go bad. So the LSU game cost me my voice Frosh year. Sophomore year was beyond depressing (the Paulus-Mcroberts sophomore year). Each year Duke was supposed to be better, make it back to prominence. Each year, they failed, and the naysayers, who i took very personally, mocked us.

I graduated last May, and always felt like i missed out. But still, this was my team. Scheyer, Lance, Zoo, Smith, Singler, even Miles....I knew these players. They were the guys I had watched. And they were supposed to be great again, even without G. So I figured I'd accept this as if i was still there.....

and now here we are. The season's far from over, but I stand here depressed. I just spent two hours in the law school library because i don't get ESPN360 elsewhere watching Duke play horribly, with me unable to scream due to well....being in a library. And as friends and I texted back in forth about the game as it went on, I just sat there with my head down in the 2nd half. Will I ever see the return of the team that brought me such passion? that made me such a crazed fan? That gave my brother a bonus for coming to Duke instead of Yale?

I know....it's a long season. But here I am, a Duke alum who thought he was going to see greatness. And 4 years later, nothing. A half-year after that, still not there yet. And i just can't keep from basically crying.


I'm not going to join in the chorus mocking you, because I salute your passion. Love it man!

These past few seasons in a way have been good for Duke fans...because it has made us realize just how difficult and rare true greatness is to achieve.

As much as you think we've underperformed relative to history, look at what happened to other premier programs: Kentucky, UCLA, Florida, UConn. They've had seasons that were far worse than ours (i.e. the McRoberts season).

Duke will be great again. It might not be this year (though I still think we have a chance), it might not be next year, but it'll happen a few more times in our lifetime.

And when it comes, cherish it, because it is hard to be truly great.

[oldnavy]

Classic "trap" game. State caught us coming off a very emotional and physical game against WF, and looking towards Clemson. That coupled with NCSU's hunger to knock us off was to much to overcome tonight.

Our guys didn't match State's energy, and we paid the price. I trust Coach K to adjust and teach from this and we will grow as a team. Nothing that we have not been through before.

Someone mentioned K's first couple of years as being bad, and they were. We lost to State then as well, Appalachian State!

I actually stopped watching this game because of the Raycom broadcast. I was so upset with them cutting away from the action on the floor to show, either a close up of one of the coaches, a player running down the court, or someone in the stands, like say Tommy Burleson. I couldn't take it any more so I shut down the TV and listened to Bob Harris call the game. Someone needs to tell those morons at Raycom, that the game is interesting enough, without some "artist" trying to improve on it by creative camera work. JUST SHOW THE D^#@ GAME!

[dukelifer]

What this game shows me, and I have been criticized in the past when I posted it, is that this Duke team cannot win a national championship. They are just not consistant enough to win 6 straight games against at least 5 good teams.

That doesn't mean that we will have a poor season, we will not, but we are at best a Sweet 16 or maybe an Elite 8 team come tournament time. I will probably be criticized again for saying so, but I think that I am realistic.

If Duke plays the way it did tonight they will get blown away on Saturday against Georgetown.

Is there any team in the ACC that has been consistent- except UVa and gee I am not sure I am taking a bet they are winning the NC. I am sure people said the same thing about Fla the first year they won a NC- or Villanova or NC State or a host of teams. Hard to predict how teams will come together come tourney time. This year- there is no clear favorite.

[kong123]

Hey Bluesin, you just wrote over 2000 words in a post, thats insane. You must have a lot of thoughts running around inside that head of yours. Be careful, don't hurt yourself. :)

[Saratoga2]

It appeared that the coaches felt that we had superior size with athletic big men and had experienced and large sized guards (compared to NC State) and a large experienced wing. With that going for us, it appeared that we felt we could play one on one defense. That didn't prove to be the case as State was able to make the entry pass to Smith with relative ease. Our bigs started playing behind Smith and letting him catch the entry without pressure around 10 to 12 feet from the basket. There was no help defense from the guards and Smith just powered and quickd his way to the basket. Why didn't our bigs play more aggressively with a hand at least obstructing the pass in? Why weren't our guards at least able to make the pass in a difficult one?

Our pressure defense (semi-press) later on just did not woork and was easily beat by State. They often then got the ball down floor while we were at a man or two advantage. I thought our pressure defense just did not work and should have been abandoned after the first couple of tries.

I too thought Lance continued to make a lot of mental mistakes but his defense was not the main issue. Zoubek did about as well as normal. The Plumlees however did not play solid defense. They looked confused out there as did Dawkins.

[CDu]

Between the Wiscy game and this game, I think we've uncovered a matchup problem for our defense. Namely, an offense with big men that can shoot from outside and make precise passes. NC State picked us apart and while I think there was a lack of defensive energy which was mentioned by the coaches and players in the postgame, irrespective of that, the Wolfpack would've still caused matchup issues for Duke with the particular talent they have. The key is that Wood and Horner are very good outside shooters. They spread us out allowing Tracy Smith, who is their leading scorer, to operate 1-on-1 inside. The spread also allowed their guards to penetrate and backdoor us with impunity since the help defense is too far away to recover in time and challenge. Duke's defense collapses if the help isn't getting there in time, and that's what we saw tonight.

I agree with this. We have had the good fortune of facing teams played multiple bigs with limited range. Clemson, GT, Wake, UConn, Gonzaga, and ISU all had two men in the post. The teams that didn't employ this strategy were generally just so overmatched inside and outside that it didn't matter. State had a good enough big man to isolate him on the blocks, and Horner was good enough from the perimeter to allow the team to spread the floor. What it illustrates is that our bigs aren't terribly good at defending on the perimeter. Essentially, Mason and Thomas couldn't handle Horner outside. They have good up and down the court speed, but I don't think that they necessarily are that great laterally. Or perhaps maybe it's just a focus issue.

The other thing that was problematic was that our guards were consistently getting beat off the dribble. And as you said, once they got beaten off the dribble, the spread offense limited the effectiveness of our help defense. When a big came over to help, Degand and Gonzalez simply dropped it off for easy buckets to the opposing big. When they didn't help, Degand and Gonzalez just took the layup.

I hope that this was just a situation in which we had a lack of energy after a draining game and with a tough game coming up. But it is reason for concern if a very mediocre team can exploit us so well with an offensive approach of two PG, two wing forwards, and one post. We won't face that style much in the ACC this year (thankfully) because everyone is big, but I'm sure we'll run into it in the tournament.


Flipping to the other side of the court, once again, the offense struggled on the road. We're too much of a jumpshooting team that can't penetrate well enough and whose bigs don't score back-to-basket well enough. Jumpshots go down easy in the comfortable shooting environs of Cameron but they miss a lot on the road with an unfamiliar shooting background Therefore, we need to start using Kyle Singler even more in the post. The only consistent offense we generated tonight was when Kyle got the ball in the post. He's our best postscorer, hands down, with nice touch and post moves, and if we want to be able to go on the road and find consistent offense, he needs to post up a heck of a lot more than he's been doing this season.

I disagree a bit with this. I don't feel like we were a jumpshooting team last night. Singler and Smith went to the basket with a purpose for much of the night. Scheyer drew a lot of fouls, even though he didn't have his best game. But I do agree that we need to get the ball to Singler in the post more. We also have to find a way to consistently get offense from someone other than our big three. Tonight we got 61 points from our big three, but only 13 from the rest of the team. Getting so little from the rest of the team offensively puts a ton of pressure on the big three offensively and/or the team defensively.

Part of that falls on the big three. We rely heavily on them to create offense for others, and tonight they really struggled with that. Smith had a couple of plays in which he set up others, but Scheyer just didn't seem to have it tonight as a distributor. It's the first time this year in which he looked like the player he was last year - very capable scorer, good at protecting the ball, but not really a creator. But a big part of it falls on the Plumlees to step up and make themselves a presence. I don't expect them to dominate the offensive boards like they did against Wake every night, because quite frankly that is unrealistic. But they have to make themselves a presence somehow. They took a big step back last night. Hopefully they can right the ship against Clemson.

[left_hook_lacey]

He had a very similar stretch last year. Given their modest athleticism, Singler and Scheyer need to be consistently superb shooters to be great players. So far in their careers, they just aren't.

Also, how few minutes did our "most talented player," according to Bilas and others, receive, not to mention his brother?

You don't think Scheyer is consistant as a shooter? I know he didn't have a stellar game last night, but you would be hard pressed to find a player more consistant than Scheyer.

[weezie]

Someone needs to tell those morons at Raycom, that the game is interesting enough, without some "artist" trying to improve on it by creative camera work. JUST SHOW THE D^#@ GAME!


Say it brother. I thought hubby was going to explode at one point.

[CDu]

It appeared that the coaches felt that we had superior size with athletic big men and had experienced and large sized guards (compared to NC State) and a large experienced wing. With that going for us, it appeared that we felt we could play one on one defense. That didn't prove to be the case as State was able to make the entry pass to Smith with relative ease. Our bigs started playing behind Smith and letting him catch the entry without pressure around 10 to 12 feet from the basket. There was no help defense from the guards and Smith just powered and quickd his way to the basket. Why didn't our bigs play more aggressively with a hand at least obstructing the pass in? Why weren't our guards at least able to make the pass in a difficult one?

Our pressure defense (semi-press) later on just did not woork and was easily beat by State. They often then got the ball down floor while we were at a man or two advantage. I thought our pressure defense just did not work and should have been abandoned after the first couple of tries.

I too thought Lance continued to make a lot of mental mistakes but his defense was not the main issue. Zoubek did about as well as normal. The Plumlees however did not play solid defense. They looked confused out there as did Dawkins.

As was noted by Troublemaker, State just did a great job of exploiting us in isolations and pick and rolls. We really struggled with one-on-one defense and we struggled with rotations. I think that a large part of that was the freshmen and Miles, our guards didn't do a good job of staying in front of their man either, and Singler was so focused on preventing open looks for Wood.

I agree that Thomas was not the main problem defensively. He did make a number of dumb mistakes, but those can be expected. Despite that, he played MUCH better defense than the Plumlees, and that's why he stayed on the floor. Zoubek was very effective when Smith was out of the game, but he just had no chance against Smith when he was in there. But his offensive rebounding contributions again made him more valuable than the Plumlees last night. The game did illustrate the weaknesses of Thomas (lack of offense and overzealousness) and Zoubek (mobility/quickness). Ultimately, we're better served if they aren't overexposed - in more limited minutes they can be really effective. But it's up to the Plumlees to actually warrant limiting the minutes of the seniors, and last night they didn't come close to doing so.

[CDu]

You don't think Scheyer is consistant as a shooter? I know he didn't have a stellar game last night, but you would be hard pressed to find a player more consistant than Scheyer.

Actually, it has been well documented that Scheyer is a very inconsistent shooter. I think you may be confusing shooting with scoring. Scheyer is a much more consistent scorer, but he is a very streaky shooter.

[duke23]

It appeared that the coaches felt that we had superior size with athletic big men and had experienced and large sized guards (compared to NC State) and a large experienced wing. With that going for us, it appeared that we felt we could play one on one defense. That didn't prove to be the case as State was able to make the entry pass to Smith with relative ease. Our bigs started playing behind Smith and letting him catch the entry without pressure around 10 to 12 feet from the basket. There was no help defense from the guards and Smith just powered and quickd his way to the basket. Why didn't our bigs play more aggressively with a hand at least obstructing the pass in? Why weren't our guards at least able to make the pass in a difficult one?

Our pressure defense (semi-press) later on just did not woork and was easily beat by State. They often then got the ball down floor while we were at a man or two advantage. I thought our pressure defense just did not work and should have been abandoned after the first couple of tries.

I too thought Lance continued to make a lot of mental mistakes but his defense was not the main issue. Zoubek did about as well as normal. The Plumlees however did not play solid defense. They looked confused out there as did Dawkins.

It seemed to me that the bigs did not intend to play behind Smith, rather they did not do a good job handling the screen at the top of the key. They did not hedge enough to force the ball handler out of his rhythm, and yet they did not recover back to the paint quickly enough to get position on the screener before the ball was swung around the perimeter and inside. Zoubek and Lance did a better job on this, and this is why Smith hurt us less later on in the game. The Plumlees will get the handle on this soon enough - I'm sure they understand the concept, they just need to be more consistent.

If anything, this game showed me just how critical Kyle is in our defensive scheme, in a "curious incident of the dog in the night-time" sort of way. Generally, you'll see Kyle rotating down, cutting off the baseline or the drop-off pass. Kyle's absence in such plays was noticeable yesterday - he was clearly instructed to not leave Wood's side. Wood had shot 28-56 from 3 in the 8 games previous, but Kyle locked him down. Coach K has always chosen to let interior guys beat us 1-on-1 rather than give up open 3's; the result is that sometimes those guys blow up. We saw some Smith-like performances even when Shelden was patrolling the paint.

[dukelifer]

As was noted by Troublemaker, State just did a great job of exploiting us in isolations and pick and rolls. We really struggled with one-on-one defense and we struggled with rotations. I think that a large part of that was the freshmen and Miles, our guards didn't do a good job of staying in front of their man either, and Singler was so focused on preventing open looks for Wood.

I agree that Thomas was not the main problem defensively. He did make a number of dumb mistakes, but those can be expected. Despite that, he played MUCH better defense than the Plumlees, and that's why he stayed on the floor. Zoubek was very effective when Smith was out of the game, but he just had no chance against Smith when he was in there. But his offensive rebounding contributions again made him more valuable than the Plumlees last night. The game did illustrate the weaknesses of Thomas (lack of offense and overzealousness) and Zoubek (mobility/quickness). Ultimately, we're better served if they aren't overexposed - in more limited minutes they can be really effective. But it's up to the Plumlees to actually warrant limiting the minutes of the seniors, and last night they didn't come close to doing so.

The Plumlee boys are still pretty young and with that comes inconsistency. Ultimately- they will be the best two down low- but they played like youngsters on the road. For Duke to win on the road, they will need to step up and play more under control- that will take time. But once they figure it out - and they will- Duke will be able to get some separation in games. Whether this team figures it out in the next few games remains to be seen. State does offer problems for Duke- given the shooting ability of their bigs. When that is going and their guards are on (which is iffy)- they are not bad. Still I would not trade their team for ours in terms of playing against the field.

[duke23]

I disagree a bit with this. I don't feel like we were a jumpshooting team last night. Singler and Smith went to the basket with a purpose for much of the night. Scheyer drew a lot of fouls, even though he didn't have his best game. But I do agree that we need to get the ball to Singler in the post more. We also have to find a way to consistently get offense from someone other than our big three. Tonight we got 61 points from our big three, but only 13 from the rest of the team. Getting so little from the rest of the team offensively puts a ton of pressure on the big three offensively and/or the team defensively.

Part of that falls on the big three. We rely heavily on them to create offense for others, and tonight they really struggled with that. Smith had a couple of plays in which he set up others, but Scheyer just didn't seem to have it tonight as a distributor. It's the first time this year in which he looked like the player he was last year - very capable scorer, good at protecting the ball, but not really a creator. But a big part of it falls on the Plumlees to step up and make themselves a presence. I don't expect them to dominate the offensive boards like they did against Wake every night, because quite frankly that is unrealistic. But they have to make themselves a presence somehow. They took a big step back last night. Hopefully they can right the ship against Clemson.

The offense might not have looked the prettiest, but it was definitely not the problem. We did not shoot very well, but we actually did dominate the offensive boards, pulling down almost half our misses, plus we got to the line, as you said. The efficiency numbers aren't up on kenpom yet, but I think we'll find the offense was barely below average, if at all, while the defensive number will almost certainly be the worst of the season.

[arnie]

Dennis Horner, who was Thomas' assignment, shot 8-15 from the field for 20 points, so I don't really see how Thomas played great defense either aside from rebounding well.

I saw the Plumlees make mistakes and get pulled. I saw Thomas play mediocre defense, make several crucial mistakes on offense, and get constant minutes in a convincing loss. Feel free not to take anything else I say seriously, but we'll have to agree to disagree here.

I generally agree with Oriole Way on this. Lance an inept offensive player - I don't really understand it, but he doesn't have the instincts or hands to even make average plays. Therefore, the only reason for playing him is for his defensive and rebounding presence. He had a very good rebounding night (which is unusual for him), but unless he's truly locking down another player, he hurts us. I still believe we play Mason more and use Lance to sub - otherwise Mason's development slows down.

[DUKIE V(A)]

Let me preface by saying I am a big MP1 fan -- I am just sticking with my recollection of the facts last night. This has been pointed out by several others and I agree that the likely reason MP1 sat was because Smith went something like 6-6 from the field against him in the early going. Not sure if it was exactly 6 for 6 but he was scoring at will on MP1. Again, this is not to critcize MP1 who I am a fan of -- I am just sticking with what happened last night. Lance came in and guarded Smith for the bulk of the rest of the first half and did an outstanding job of denying him the ball. I think he held him to two points for the rest of the half. That was huge and kept us close. Smith's points in the second half came largely at the expense of Zoubs who got caught double-teaming several times. Also, IIRC Horner did very little against Lance at the beginning of the game. State did an outstanding job of getting him the ball when our guards were on him and he took advantage in the post. That really got him going and then of course he hit some bigtime 3-pointers.

I am one that thinks all our big guys bring something different and important to the table. Lance brings a nice defensive game and is able to match up with bigger and smaller guys (and by the way rebounded extremely well last night). Zoubs crashes the boards and is tough to shoot over. MP1 brings a nice offensive game and I believe MP2 could be our best overall player in time. Of course, none of the guys are limited to what I mentioned, but I think they are all assets to this year's team.

[NYDukie]

but some that I think are worth noting, both good and bad.

1. As many have said, worse defensive effort all year. State, a team that struggles each year to score, and who is averaging just over 70pts a game that is considered a offensive explosion by many this year, just dropped 88 points on us and could have had more. Unexcusable on so many levels! Two areas that were exposed were the teams inability to neutralize quick PGs and quick guards in general and those forwards that can bully their way into the lane off the dribble or step out. We don't have the perimeter quickness as a whole to effectively offset quick perimeter teams. This will a key to follow going forward during the season and also with whom we are in the same brackets with come tourney time. I know some will say we shut down Booker last time, but it seems it has been more the rule than the exception that when we fact those combo forwards that can go in or out, that our defense struggles. Either Z or the Plumlees can't go outside and guard or Lance or Kyle get bullied a bit down low.

2. Lack of guard depth is starting to rear it's ugly head. Combine this with Kyle being better suited to play the 4 at the college level and this issue just snowballs. Dawkins has hit the freshman wall as many do. Since mid December he has only played 20 minutes once with the majority of time being 12 minutes or less. The reasons may vary but the fact is he is playing less and we have no other place to turn at the guard spot after Jon and Nolan. In addition, if we could do a "do over" in a perfect world, I think the best Duke lineup would have Kyle at the 4 but because of the lack of guards, we are limited here and Kyle is stuck at the 3 this year. Would Coach K make another mid season lineup change similar to EWill last year by inserting Andre into the starting lineup to maximize Kyle's ability? I don't know because of the lack of guard depth? This would possibly force Dawkins into playing 20 minutes a game regularly to maxmize Kyle's abilities at the 4. Just a thought! But the lack of antoher "trusted" guard (EWill would have been this) is having a trickle down affect both in the guard rotation, the ability to move Kyle to a more effective 4 spot at the college level and having another quick perimeter guard to defend the opponents top quick perimeter guard.

3. To a good point in my eyes. The season is still smack in the middle. Whereas, the past number of years it always seemed we had peaked at this time, I do not get the feeling this team has. There is still a learning curve here, specifically with the Plumlees. I also think Dawkins will get his second wind as he also gets his head cleared from his family's tragedy in December. This team is better than the teams of the past 4-5 years. They do have their warts but have fixed some, such as rebounding. Some issues are fixable, such as adjusting defensive strategy based on the opponent. Some are not, as we can not miraculously come up with another guard. But we will see.

As a side note, where many have been quick to knock the SEC and Pac-10, even the Big 10 at times, for which leagues I have been a critic of also, I think we should take a look in the mirror with regards to the ACC as a whole. Right now, there are no elite teams in the ACC. The Duke team probably has the best potential for a Final 4 berth, but tourney matchups will dictate that. You just can't reasonably take this Duke team and automatically put them in the Final 4 without looking at the other teams as easily as you may, say Kansas, UK or Texas. I'm not so sure you can just slot them into the Elite 8 without thinking hard about it right now. In line with Duke you have Clemson and Ga. Tech as the lead teams in the ACC right now at the national level. I'm sorry but I just don't see either breaking down the door on the way to the Final 4 or Elite 8. UNC, Florida St, Va. Tech and Maryland all have issues. Virginia???? Not a believer though I think they are on the right track! What we have here are a bunch of mediocre teams, good teams if you rather say that and 2 or 3 very good teams with some room to grow. 11 wins will win the ACC this year, maybe even 10 given the parity. Though better than the SEC and Pac 10, this is not a good ACC year!

[Gewebe14]

But there is too much to wade through... I only caught 2nd half, but why on earth did MP1 not get some more minutes when Zoubek was getting taken to the rim on what seemed like 5 straight plays for T. Smith dunks?

EDIT: This is not one of those "i hate zoo gettting minutes/we don't have depth" questions, just a legitimate question about that specific situation. I like Zoo a lot.

[airowe]

Bump in the road. Anomaly. I didn't have a good feeling going into this game. Saturday will be a better gauge for me on how much fight this team has in them on the road. Hopefully, they'll come out with more fight in their dadgum little finger than they did this game.

[Acymetric]

Also, for the record, I am NOT pinning this loss squarely on Lance Thomas. The entire team played terribly on both sides of the ball.

But one of the problems I have seen with this team all season is not fielding our best starting 5 (post- return of Mason Plumlee), in addition to a poor rotation and distribution of minutes where talented players who could be helping this team now aren't getting enough of a chance to develop and contribute. I feel very strongly that the best way for Duke to start improving as a team would be to remove Thomas from the starting lineup and play the Plumlees together as much as possible.

At the rate Mason has been picking up fouls its not going to matter if he starts because he'll ride the bench for the final 16 or 17 minutes of the half anyway. Not really sure what your point is, Mason is playing as much as fouls allow the past couple games.

[airowe]

I generally agree with Oriole Way on this. Lance an inept offensive player - I don't really understand it, but he doesn't have the instincts or hands to even make average plays. Therefore, the only reason for playing him is for his defensive and rebounding presence. He had a very good rebounding night (which is unusual for him), but unless he's truly locking down another player, he hurts us. I still believe we play Mason more and use Lance to sub - otherwise Mason's development slows down.

I don't agree with much of what Oriole Way said but if you don't think K wants to play Mason more you haven't been watching the same games as me. Mason was picking up fouls at an alarmingly unathletic rate. Compare Mason's minutes in the games where he doesn't pick up quick Freshmen fouls to his minutes in the games when he does. Therein lies your answer.

[left_hook_lacey]

0-3 on the road now... starting to get a little worried about that. This is first game that's really bothered me... like another posted said, it's the first game where we didn't even really compete. And to (arguably) the worst team in the ACC.

Next play, I guess.

I have to totally disagree. I do think we competed, I think we played hard, but the shots just were not falling.

And I don't see State as the worst team in the ACC at all. They've lost some heartbreakers that they should've won. Florida beat them with a buzzer beater in OT. They lost by 2 at Arizona. They lost by single digits to Clemson(too lazy to look up the score). I mean, a bucket here, a bucket there and State would be undefeated, at least in the ACC. I think right now, the worst team in the ACC is BC, followed by GASP!, UNC.

[Lord Ash]

Anyone else feel like coach k was lettng his guys play through the tough spots instead of calling a timeout? Time will tell how much the players will learn from this game.

Very much so; during a few runs, K let the guys play, and honestly, I don't mind.

This loss annoyed me a lot more than GTech. Not sure why... we just seemed flat.

[dbd4ever]

After watching the game last night and sleeping on it, the team just seemed flat. We could cut into their lead but never get over the hump and actually tie the game. Everytime we got close or made a run, they hit a big shot or we got called for another silly foul. And i think at one point, Coach K was content to let them battle back on their own and let this team mature a lil bit. Hopefully this loss will be a turning point for these guys.

I don't know if I am off base, but it seems like we are committing a lot of silly fouls. And what I mean is we are not committing fouls to stop layups and drives to the basket, but we are committing fouls 30ft from the basket with a big covering a guard or fouls slapping at the ball after we have turned the ball over or the other team has grabbed a defensive rebound. And a lot of our fouls start with not being in position from the start.

Another thing is that I think in some games we have to be determined to through the ball in the post for Singler, MP1, MP2, Zoub, etc.. to at least try to create something. I always feel very good when Mason receives the ball on the offensive end in the offense and can look to create for himself or someone else, whether it be in the post or out on the perimeter. He seems to be very comfortable handling the ball for a freshman. He just seems to get a lil out of control when we get into a trading baskets situation and the pace is amped up. But that's expected from a freshman.

It also seems that a lil of the fallout towards Lance was kind of brought on by expectations of.... well... ourselves. After the Clemson and Iowa State games we labeled Lance as a sort of our defensive stopper in the post. And granted he did do a good job on Booker and Brackens, but he was by no means a defensive stopper. He plays great in spurts, but also has stretches where he seems to be lost and makes uncontrolable mistakes. And last night was one of those nights where he just couldn't catch a break. He would commit a foul on one end and then travel or turn the ball over on the other end. I agree that some of this is unacceptable but at the same time, Lance brings length, mobility, and experience to our team that we need.

The one thing that just burned me up everytime we would lose ground on NCSU, was that none of the upper classmen would step up and show a fire to lead the guys out on the floor. A lot of times last year and some this year, Lance was that guy to pull everyone together and refocus out on the floor. Scheyer has also been a leader on the floor, but last night it was like nobody had enough guts or energy to step up in the huddle and reassure the other players that we could make this comeback and get back in this game and have a chance to win. And as far as that goes, we have to have a leader in big games(especially on the road) and come March. Everyone plays a special role on a great team and someone has to be THE guy that steps up and pulls everyone together when things aren't going as planned or you aren't playing as well as usual.(see Battier, Hurley, Redick) And nobody did that last night.
Who is the so-called Coach on the Floor???

I have confidence we will finish strong. I also believe that we can go into Clemson and win this Saturday. We need a road win right now more than anything. And it would be nice to do it at Gameday.

[Neals384]

How about a little perspective from another sport?

In the late 80s I was lucky to score tickets to a 49ers game against the Broncos. They didn't play well, the starting quarterback struggled and got hurt when the line didn't protect well, the field goal kicker hit both goal posts and the defense let the Broncos score in OT. The team fell to 6-5 and most fans, who expected the 49ers to win the Superbowl every year, were ready to write off the season.

Do I have to tell you that was the last loss of the year? They ran the table for 11-5 regular season record and a Superbowl win.

Lesson: real fans love their team and keep rooting for them, keep hoping for the best, and

NEVER GIVE UP

[Steve68]

Losing by double digits to a really under-talented State team exposes this team for what it really is. We don't have the talent we are all used to people, so get used to it. Nothing against our guys, I love them, they are great kids but we don't have elite talent anymore and so we will lose our share of games we shouldn't.

It's time for some type of change, not sure what it is, but something has to change....Can anyone in their right mind think this team can move past the Sweet 16? Really good teams don't let a pathetic State team beat them by 14. I don't care who you are.

The 1991 National Championship team lost seven games, some of them by more than 14 points. This is one game in January. Sure, we played badly against State, but this is a little early to come to such a negative conclusion. Let the season play out before you give up so easily. If the team takes this same attitude, they might prove you right. Wouldn't that be fun?

[mcdukie]

Before I say a bunch of negative things, I am going to wait until Saturday at Clemson. It is not a good thing that we are so bad on the road. Also, to be elite we are going to have to develop some sort of inside presence. What I am interested to see is as the season goes on, will Nolan become the player we rely on more than Scheyer?

I have said all along that whoever wins that ACC will have 3 or 4 losses. No one is that dominant.

[duke23]

The offense might not have looked the prettiest, but it was definitely not the problem. We did not shoot very well, but we actually did dominate the offensive boards, pulling down almost half our misses, plus we got to the line, as you said. The efficiency numbers aren't up on kenpom yet, but I think we'll find the offense was barely below average, if at all, while the defensive number will almost certainly be the worst of the season.

Update:

Offensive efficiency was 106.8. Not fantastic, but not atrocious. We've had 4 other games with worse offensive efficiency, and we won 3 of them. As a contrast, in last year's losses to Nova and Clemson, and other recent memorable losses, our offensive efficiency was around 75.

Defensive efficiency was 127.0. This IS atrocious. In the 7 years of Pomeroy data going back to 2004, we've had only 2 games worse than this - last year against the holes, and 2005 against a Wake team led by Chris Paul.

In a way, this is almost comforting. The defensive number is so ludicrous that is makes it easier to call this an outlier and move on. Trap game, the Pack played well, we didn't. I have a sneaking suspicion we're going to come out smoking on Saturday, and this game will quickly fade from our collective consciousness.

[DukeDevilDeb]

Well, Scheyer has in fact been in a shooting slump - just not as long a slump as the previous poster was suggesting. Look at his FG numbers in each of the past four games (all under 40%).

He's still had some good point totals and until tonight was still getting plenty of assists. But he has been in a FG shooting slump of late.

I agree with your statement but not your sentiment. Jon had 21 points last night, our second highest scorer. He found ways to get points even when his shots weren't falling. But take away the big 3 and you have 13 points from the other guys. That just isn't acceptable... We get anything from the Plumlees almost anywhere in the game, and that helps. I also think underclassmen are more prone to letting their performances get into their heads... Mason looked like he got worse as he didn't perform.

Next game, guys. This is NOT the end of the season, nor is it the end of the world! :)

[airowe]

The one thing that just burned me up everytime we would lose ground on NCSU, was that none of the upper classmen would step up and show a fire to lead the guys out on the floor. A lot of times last year and some this year, Lance was that guy to pull everyone together and refocus out on the floor. Scheyer has also been a leader on the floor, but last night it was like nobody had enough guts or energy to step up in the huddle and reassure the other players that we could make this comeback and get back in this game and have a chance to win. And as far as that goes, we have to have a leader in big games(especially on the road) and come March. Everyone plays a special role on a great team and someone has to be THE guy that steps up and pulls everyone together when things aren't going as planned or you aren't playing as well as usual.(see Battier, Hurley, Redick) And nobody did that last night.
Who is the so-called Coach on the Floor???

I have confidence we will finish strong. I also believe that we can go into Clemson and win this Saturday. We need a road win right now more than anything. And it would be nice to do it at Gameday.

Boozer, I was at the game and if you could have seen Scheyer in the huddles you would be singing a much different tune. I have never seen him so fired up off the court before. If there's one guy who really took this loss personally and will use it to fire up the team and carry them through this one game struggle, it's Jon.

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

It's a short walk from the Penthouse to the Outhouse! After beating WF we were dishing out high praises and now after the NCST loss we're back in the sewer! Like most of you I was totally shocked to see the lack of defense Duke played against NCST. Heck, if we weren't going to play defense then put the best 5 offensive players on the court and let them have at it (S-S-S, MP2, Dawkins). A lot of times we stood around looking like we were watching Avatar in 3D for the first time. It appeared as though we were playing in mud and without a sense of urgency whatsoever. I kept waiting for Duke players to realize that NCST point guards weren't looking to score when they penetrated but looking to dish off to Smith at the last possible moment but Duke kept leaving Smith and NCST would simply throw a little wrap around pass each time. Wow, they made Tracy Smith look like Dwight Howard. OK, our bigs aren't particulary decent shot blockers but can they at least put their hands straight up in an effort to alter a shot or make the shot more difficult...many times our players hands were straight down. I really believe Zoubs can alter shots if he keeps his arms up and not down on the shoulders of the opposing player. I'm hoping this game will serve as a wake up call. We really need for Dawkins to get back going...perhaps run some plays for him. Ryan Kelly supposedly has a nice jumper with 3pt ability...well we need that skill set to appear real soon...the deer in headlights syndrome should be over by now. On the bright side, can anyone honestly think that we have already peaked? There is so much room for improvement and as the season goes on, I think Duke will be a force once all the squeaky parts are greased. It's still early in conference play but we have got to start now.

[NYDukie]

The 1991 National Championship team lost seven games, some of them by more than 14 points. This is one game in January. Sure, we played badly against State, but this is a little early to come to such a negative conclusion. Let the season play out before you give up so easily. If the team takes this same attitude, they might prove you right. Wouldn't that be fun?

My only issue is that year we didn't lose to a team that was considered a bottom feeder of their conference as State is con. UNC blew us out that year and they were top 10 while UVA was a middle of the pack ACC team.

[MChambers]

Oriole Way, it seems you have dug in on the, I'm right and everyone else (including the HoF coach with 3 NC's) is wrong and an idiot for not seeing the special things I can see, point of view (if you'll forgive a little judicious paraphrasing of your own statements). I have a few things to say in general, and a few more specific things to say about what you've written.

1) This team did not play well tonight, NCSU came in with a fire lit under them and took it too our players. For whatever reason our guys did not respond well. Blame it on the emotional let down from the Wake game, blame it on the crowd and the hostile arena (I was there and NCSU's fans were ready to play along with their team, and they really played off each other well despite the fans having a marginal grasp of the rules of the game as a whole). Or just blame it on poor play, poor defense as a team and bad shooting against an opponent who was shooting the lights out for pretty much the entire game. Whatever you want to blame it on it happened, and it really doesn't change too much about what kind of team we are now, and it only points to the kinds of things we need to do to improve into the team we can be.

2) This is just a loss, it's not a season ending, fatal flaw exposing, doom and gloom loss. It's a loss to a team that came to play on their home court that could have very well had 3-4 more wins and been 3-1 in ACC play up to this point had a few more bounces gone their way earlier in their season. They went their way this game, and on top of they they executed brilliantly in the half court against our mediocre defense.

3) Your arguments about Lance needing to sit on the bench are logically flawed, in oh so many ways. For one thing you're asserting that Lance (apparently) does not play particularly well on either end of the floor. I would ask Dino, Paul and Oliver how Lance played on the defensive end of those games. I think you'll find they would have been much happier if the foul prone MP's 1&2 had stayed in the game at his expense. (Paul might not care too awful much but only because of the result)

You can say Lance benefits from having Z or one of the athletic Plum brothers on the court with him to cover his mistakes, but you are glossing over some very important things. For one Miles seems to have a reoccurring gap in his basketball knowledge, it's in the part of his brain that remembers he is the help side defense. Mason has a little more latitude from me in forgetting his assignment in the help situation because of his injury and his freshman status, so I'll leave him out of this particular part of the discussion for simplicity's sake. Lance understands how the defensive scheme works, and he knows how to deny a player the ball without gathering touch fouls like they were dollar bills falling from the sky. Miles CAN do this, I've seen him do it. But he can't do it very consistently. Simply put your solution of putting Lance on the bench and playing him much more sparingly takes perhaps our best defender off the floor and puts either one, or both, of our most foul prone and defensively vulnerable bigs on the floor.

In addition, Lance can guard outside of the lane, he can do a servicable to excellent job on a guard should he find himself on the switch guarding a smaller faster player. Miles and Mason both simply cannot do as well at guarding outside the lane, for a number of reasons. Taking Lance out and putting either one of them in would in effect give the other team an area to exploit (it's in the playbook on Duke, switch them till you have a miss-match of a big on the guard or vice versa and use that to your advantage). And don't forget with Lance on the bench that means MP1 Z or MP2 are on the floor at the same time, one post defender who can't guard outside isn't so bad and can be managed, 2 is a much different matter.

Simply stating that Lance's defensive assignment tonight scored a lot of points doesn't actually prove he isn't a better defensive player or worse option than anyone on the court. It could imply that our help side defense was not there and Lance was defending more on his own against a bigger post player, it could illustrate that our ball pressure was not good, or it could illustrate that while he was playing good help defense on ball penetration the penetration itself was successful in this game at opening up the post for NCSU (I would hazard a guess that all three in a combination were the culprit tonight). Nevermind the fact that NCSU had other players in the game who scored points, and at some point Miles or Mason were guarding them when there were in the game (and not on the bench because they were fouling, being ineffective on offense and missing defensive rotations). Without checking I'd venture to guess that some of the points Lance's assignment was responsible for came because of poor help side defense or because he got switched off of him or because he just made a good move in a game where state was playing their offense very well (though I could in fact be totally wrong, it doesn't negate any of my other points if I am especially). I hardly see how ALL of that can be Lance's fault.

I would also ask what exactly you have seen defensively that indicates that Miles or Mason are so much more advanced than Lance that they should eat up his minutes. Was it Miles's stellar game against Wake, where for the first half he was mostly out of position on help? I'm not saying Miles can't defend, or that he shouldn't start or play more, but I have seen little in the way of defense that screams out to me that right now he's superior individually, or as a team member, to Lance.

4) Lance's offense is obviously not exemplary, he's never going to average 12 points a game or "go off" on a team for 20 (though how sweet would that be? :D). I'm not going to advocate that he touch the ball more on offense or that he's being denied opportunities to score by his teammates selfishly not passing to him. At the same time he scored 5 points on 66% shooting tonight. He turned the ball over at the same rate as our other more offensively gifted players, and on a given night one or two of his post turnovers could have been called as fouls or he might not have lost his grip on the ball. (As a side not to anyone still reading this, did it seem to anyone else like the ball had grease on it when we touched it?)

You disregard his one basket on the Nolan pass because it was made while he was upcourt and was an easy to convert bucket. I can understand your reasoning there, even if I don't agree with it (though I do sort of cringe at the implication that he was just strolling back on defense instead). But, you're also advocating more time for MP's 1&2, who's only collective bucket this evening came on Mason's fairly easy transition dunk. So it's ok for Mason to get more playing time, when he gets an easy dunk (and apparently tonight Miles should have gotten playing time because his brother scored while he was sitting on the bench) but when Lance scores an easy basket he's not doing something right? I know Lance isn't as offensively talented as either of them, but tonight NONE of our players outside of the big 3 were scoring, and they were ALL given time and opportunity to play offense.

It's easy to say that Miles and Mason should get more playing time because of their offense, but tonight they fouled too much and didn't produce in the time they had offensively, Lance produced 12 rebounds, 5 points, and played good team defense. He outclassed Miles and Mason (together!) on the floor in the categories that should probably be most important for a big man on both offense and defense.

5) To address Dawkins getting more playing time -- Dawkins doesn't move off the ball particularly well right now. On quite a few plays in the last few games he's been in, and either stood in the corner with his man about 3 feet away or run off one or two screens and not been open for his shot. And when he is open it hasn't fallen. I don't know why he's not moving without the ball well, and as a freshman I'm sure there are many aspects to this particular weakness. However, since his defense is not exactly stellar at this point (during one particular play in the State game during the first half his man ran across the court and was completely open, with Dawkins standing on the low opposite block, he looked up panicked and found him before NCSU did, but still it illustrates the point that his defense is not there for him to be stealing minutes from other players, particularly our guards). I absolutely LOVE the kid, I think he's a good player now, and he'll be a tremendous player in the future. In this game he was not however.

6) I realize I may sound as thought I'm negative on Miles and Mason, and perhaps Dawkins. I'm not trying to be, but I am trying to illustrate that the reasons for advocating they should get more burn and Lance should get less are mostly flawed as you have presented them. If the two of them play significantly better on both ends of the floor (as we all know they can) I have no problem starting them over Lance, and him giving up some of his minutes. But as of right now they aren't there, and they're getting time to show what they can. Jumbo likes to point out that playing time in games and playing time in practice are different animals and they each serve a purpose, and simply saying playing more in a game doesn't mean you'll get better. I happen to agree with him on this quite forcefully.

Miles was not defensively sound in all of his games where he was allowed to play more. But he did produce on the offensive end, and didn't foul as much. The same goes for Mason. That didn't happen in this game, and toward the end the propensity for fouling probably kept them off of the floor over Lance, because we were losing and NCSU was in the bonus, meaning every defensive lapse where they fouled could have resulted in more points for NCSU. I'm not saying this is the absolute reason they weren't on the floor, I have my suspicions as to why they weren't, but it is certainly something I think you should consider.

I don't post on here often. Usually someone who I respect says what I'm thinking, and I find no reason to post something that reads like -- I agree with everything you've said Jumbo/Stray/Mullet/etc. keep up the good work. I think this might be my third post in about 8 years, and apparently I've decided I'm only going to post in post-loss threads in which OW makes points I disagree with. I apologize if it seems this is the case, I recognize that you're a passionate fan, with your own opinions and you want the team to be successful, I can't fault you for that and I applaud your willingness to defend what you think is right. I just happen to think that you are painfully wrong, and it seems to me like you're throwing Lance under the bus without giving him a fair shake. I'll also say I don't much care for your Paulus comments, but he's gone now so I won't get into a fight over that.

Excuse the length and any errors I may have missed in spelling and grammar, it's been a long night and I didn't get home until 1:30 from the game (seriously getting out of that place was worse than losing the game, especially if you drive the wrong way around 440). And please, if I've missed some crucial point, or if there is anything you feel I need to know to understand better let me know, I honestly have no overt hostility and and perfectly willing to listen and/or be proved wrong.

Thanks for saying everything I was thinking, and saying it far better than I could.

[CDu]

I agree with your statement but not your sentiment. Jon had 21 points last night, our second highest scorer. He found ways to get points even when his shots weren't falling. But take away the big 3 and you have 13 points from the other guys. That just isn't acceptable... We get anything from the Plumlees almost anywhere in the game, and that helps. I also think underclassmen are more prone to letting their performances get into their heads... Mason looked like he got worse as he didn't perform.

Next game, guys. This is NOT the end of the season, nor is it the end of the world! :)

I'm not sure what you mean by my sentiment. I was merely commenting on a factual error. I said nothing about his overall level of play - just his shooting. I completely agree that he was still relatively efficient as a scorer.

Tonight's game from Scheyer looked a lot like his game last year. Still a pretty efficient scorer, but not much of a distributor. A big part of why we've been so good this year is that he'd made great strides as a distributor. Hopefully he bounces back to that against Clemson.

[wiscodevil]

Andre hasn't hit a 3 since 2009 (6 games).

They never looked for him. Not once.

[NYC Duke Fan]

The 1991 National Championship team lost seven games, some of them by more than 14 points. This is one game in January. Sure, we played badly against State, but this is a little early to come to such a negative conclusion. Let the season play out before you give up so easily. If the team takes this same attitude, they might prove you right. Wouldn't that be fun?


You are not thinking that this Duke team is a National Championship Team....Are You ? I hope not because you are going to very disappointed come March. Be more realistic and the season will be just fine.

[roywhite]

Boozer, I was at the game and if you could have seen Scheyer in the huddles you would be singing a much different tune. I have never seen him so fired up off the court before. If there's one guy who really took this loss personally and will use it to fire up the team and carry them through this one game struggle, it's Jon.

One small point on Scheyer's play...he came close to a number of steals. He got his hand on quite a few balls but didn't come away with them. Seems to me he is reaching and doesn't commit to the steal...meaning he would be better to drop his shoulder, really go for the ball and run on through the position.

This was another game where we didn't get the 50/50 balls, similar to Wiscy, and GaTech games.

One other observations---this is the time of the season that is often about the low point for freshmen. They've been knocked back by the intensity and physical nature of league play and are mistake-prone, not playing with confidence. Not just this year...almost every year.

The freshman play will get better, and needs to.

[NYC Duke Fan]

Is there any team in the ACC that has been consistent- except UVa and gee I am not sure I am taking a bet they are winning the NC. I am sure people said the same thing about Fla the first year they won a NC- or Villanova or NC State or a host of teams. Hard to predict how teams will come together come tourney time. This year- there is no clear favorite.

No clear cut favorites but teams that are better than Duke...Kentucky, Kansas, Texas, Villanova, probably a few Big East Schools, ( let's see what happens on Saturday ).

I just do not think that this Duke team can win 5 or 6 straight games in March, whereas I think that the 4 that I mentioned can.

[CDu]

No clear cut favorites but teams that are better than Duke...Kentucky, Kansas, Texas, Villanova, probably a few Big East Schools, ( let's see what happens on Saturday ).

I just do not think that this Duke team can win 5 or 6 straight games in March, whereas I think that the 4 that I mentioned can.

Note that three of those four have something that gives us real trouble - two (or more) guards who can consistently beat their man off the dribble. And all but Kentucky play 4-out, 1-in (and even Kentucky does it to some degree). We've had success mostly against teams that play 2 men in the paint, which allows our bigs to stay more in their comfort zone (and we always have help in the lane). We're going to need to show that we can beat teams who spread the floor and attack off the dribble if we're going to make a deep NCAA run.

We can probably win the ACC without showing that, because most of the teams in our conference (1) don't spread the floor well and (2) don't have multiple guards who can beat you off the dribble. That's both a blessing and a curse though from a national perspective, because it means we won't get many opportunities for our bigs to get experience against that style.

[Steve68]

What this game shows me, and I have been criticized in the past when I posted it, is that this Duke team cannot win a national championship. They are just not consistant enough to win 6 straight games against at least 5 good teams.

That doesn't mean that we will have a poor season, we will not, but we are at best a Sweet 16 or maybe an Elite 8 team come tournament time. I will probably be criticized again for saying so, but I think that I am realistic.

If Duke plays the way it did tonight they will get blown away on Saturday against Georgetown.

No one will argue with your last statement. However, what if we play like we did against UConn, Gonzaga, Clemson, or Wake? We didn't play that badly in our two previous losses, so why assume that we will continue to play as badly as we did one time all year?

[roywhite]

No clear cut favorites but teams that are better than Duke...Kentucky, Kansas, Texas, Villanova, probably a few Big East Schools, ( let's see what happens on Saturday ).

I just do not think that this Duke team can win 5 or 6 straight games in March, whereas I think that the 4 that I mentioned can.

That's a reasonable view looking at current strong points and weak points, but it's still 2 months off and teams can change, either positively or negatively.

Isn't there more to following Duke basketball than constantly stressing about past and future NCAA tournament performance?

[hq2]

State is better than their record; they've had some close losses to good teams. This game shows that certain teams are going to give Duke matchup problems, regardless of how hard we try. We don't have sufficient backcourt
quickness and depth to stop quick, deep teams that penetrate well. This sort of backcourt, coupled with a couple of big horses to jam up the middle, is one we simply have a hard time matching up with. It's pretty much how Villanova blew us out last year. If we run into this type of team in the NCAAs, we'll be in trouble no matter how hard we try. Note also that the Plumlees once again did not do a lot against a team with better defensive players, so don't start the Plumlee party just yet. I'd say our March success will hinge a lot on what teams are in our bracket; a game against this type of team could mean an early exit.

[SupaDave]

I know....it's a long season. But here I am, a Duke alum who thought he was going to see greatness. And 4 years later, nothing. A half-year after that, still not there yet. And i just can't keep from basically crying.

I would expect to maybe see this from a State fan but I don't think things are this bad.

[BlueintheFace]

Dennis Horner, who was Thomas' assignment, shot 8-15 from the field for 20 points, so I don't really see how Thomas played great defense either aside from rebounding well.

I saw the Plumlees make mistakes and get pulled. I saw Thomas play mediocre defense, make several crucial mistakes on offense, and get constant minutes in a convincing loss. Feel free not to take anything else I say seriously, but we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Horner was not his primary assignment, so there is that

[BlueintheFace]

But there is too much to wade through... I only caught 2nd half, but why on earth did MP1 not get some more minutes when Zoubek was getting taken to the rim on what seemed like 5 straight plays for T. Smith dunks?

EDIT: This is not one of those "i hate zoo gettting minutes/we don't have depth" questions, just a legitimate question about that specific situation. I like Zoo a lot.

1) Zoubek was our only player with significant minutes with a positive +/-, in fact it was a +9. He dominated the glass when he was on the floor during a stretch when we really needed it.

2) Nobody got abused by Tracy Smith as badly as Miles Plumlee did. I'm not sure, but I think Miles was auditioning for the job of Tracy Smith's agent in the first 5 minutes. It set the tone for the game.

[Kedsy]

I hope that this was just a situation in which we had a lack of energy after a draining game and with a tough game coming up. But it is reason for concern if a very mediocre team can exploit us so well with an offensive approach of two PG, two wing forwards, and one post. We won't face that style much in the ACC this year (thankfully) because everyone is big, but I'm sure we'll run into it in the tournament.


This is a really good point. I may be oversimplifying but it's essentially what Villanova did to us last year. Although I suppose they were really two PGs, two wing guards (or sometimes one wing guard and one wing forward) and one post.

If it's really a problem, though, I'm not sure how to fix it. The zone we used in the second half seemed fairly effective for three or four possessions, but then State got an easy basket and we abandoned it. I'm not sure why we were unable to perform a basic help/rotate scheme. It seemed like we either didn't help or didn't rotate after the help. I thought we did OK with rotating after the help earlier in the year, so perhaps until proven otherwise we have to think/hope that this was a one game anomaly.

[Slackerb]

everyone considering this as such a horrible loss: State's actually not that bad.

It's been said here that State is not that far off, and this game showed that. No, State's not a better team than Duke...not even close, but they're not as bad as the record shows. And what is really not being talked about is that they have played WELL lately.

State beat No.6 Duke by 14.
State lost to Clemson by 3 and had a three pointer clang twice off the rim at the buzzer.
State beat No. 25 Florida State by 7, on the road, but it wasn't even that close.
State lost to Virginia, who is currently playing lights out.
State lost to Florida on a buzzer beater miracle.
State lost to Arizona on a last second shot.
State lost to Wake by 8.

Those are the main games since the first of December. Losses to Wake and Viriginia now don't look too bad.

This team has been in every game against every opponent, has no bad losses since December 1, and is now 2-0 against the top 25.

[Kedsy]

We saw some Smith-like performances even when Shelden was patrolling the paint.

This is another really good point. We saw a ton of them. At one point in 2005-06 it seemed the other team's center was having a career game practically every night.

At that time, the reason for it seemed to be that freshman Paulus was not staying in front of his man and freshman McRoberts was not rotating over after Shelden stepped up to help. We had similar issues last night.

[DukieInBrasil]

I was most shocked at the dramatic drop-off in the Plumlees. They went from 30-21 to 2-6?!? Amazing. I understand that they are young and still learning, but that is an unbelievable turnaround. If they had managed their average, ~14pts and 11 rebounds this game becomes very different.

[Kfanarmy]

You are not thinking that this Duke team is a National Championship Team....Are You ? I hope not because you are going to very disappointed come March. Be more realistic and the season will be just fine.

I personally hope your smog filled crystal ball is incorrect and recommend you just not watch until Duke wins a NC.

[dbd4ever]

No clear cut favorites but teams that are better than Duke...Kentucky, Kansas, Texas, Villanova, probably a few Big East Schools, ( let's see what happens on Saturday ).

I just do not think that this Duke team can win 5 or 6 straight games in March, whereas I think that the 4 that I mentioned can.

May I please ask what makes these teams sooo much better than Duke??? And what are you basing this conclusion off of?

Kentucky has beaten absolutely no one!!!! They beat UNC by 2 @ Rupp, and UCONN by 3 @ MSG. There is not another ranked team on their list of wins so far. The next closest win over a good team was @ Florida. They play 2-3 upper classmen significant minutes. Is their no chance of a so-called freshmen wall for any of their freshmen? So what makes them such a contender.

Kansas is another team of the same MO. The only difference is that they do have senior leadership and tournament experience. Their best win was at Temple. That is their lone win over a currently ranked team.

Villanova has not played a particularly tough schedule either. They have a loss to Temple, but also have no road wins over a ranked opponent. Their most impressive win was their comeback against Louisville. The only other ranked teams they have beat is Dayton by 6 and G-town by 5 both at Nova. I still believe that they will have trouble against teams with strong guards and some size on the inside.

Texas is probably the biggest contender out of these teams. They have a win over Pitt before the return of Dixon and Brown(two of their key players). And they have a win over UNC(not turning out to be such a big deal anymore) and a win over Mich St at Texas. But they seem to come and go with the play of Damion James. But they are definitely not unbeatable.

Another team you might consider would be Syracuse, but they too are not just head and shoulders above the rest. Duke can beat any team on a given night and could definitely get hot and win 6 in a row. I like our chances once March comes barring any injury or anything unforseen. We will be in the discussion come March.

[Kedsy]

Two areas that were exposed were the teams inability to neutralize quick PGs and quick guards in general and those forwards that can bully their way into the lane off the dribble or step out. We don't have the perimeter quickness as a whole to effectively offset quick perimeter teams. This will a key to follow going forward during the season and also with whom we are in the same brackets with come tourney time. I know some will say we shut down Booker last time, but it seems it has been more the rule than the exception that when we fact those combo forwards that can go in or out, that our defense struggles. Either Z or the Plumlees can't go outside and guard or Lance or Kyle get bullied a bit down low.

I agree there are some common themes in our losses, but I don't think it's fair to say we were "exposed" or can't effectively defend quick guards. What BCS team have we played that didn't have some quick guards? UConn has very quick guards. Ish Smith might be the quickest player we see all year. Even Clemson has pretty quick guards. But we neutralized them and beat them handily. The difference is we played better team defense in those games than we did in our losses.

Your other point is more complicated, because you're right that Z and the Plumlees have not proven adept at guarding outside. The answer there should be to play Lance and have him guard the big that goes outside, but then we have to stop the other team's big man one-on-one, which we didn't do so well last night. Alternatively, we could go small and have Kyle on the "wing big" and have Andre guard the other team's 3, although I'm not sure Andre would have been able to shut down Scott Wood last night, either. Hopefully the coaching staff will find a solution to this dilemma.

[Steve68]

You are not thinking that this Duke team is a National Championship Team....Are You ? I hope not because you are going to very disappointed come March. Be more realistic and the season will be just fine.

I'm saying it is a little too early to write them off. I've been a Duke fan far too long (over 45 years) to define an unsuccessful season as any one when we don't win a national championship. I think this team still has a chance to do some great things this season (including a possible national championship or at least a Final Four appearance), but even if they don't accomplish great things, I plan to enjoy the ride.

[Kedsy]

What this game shows me, and I have been criticized in the past when I posted it, is that this Duke team cannot win a national championship. They are just not consistant enough to win 6 straight games against at least 5 good teams.

That doesn't mean that we will have a poor season, we will not, but we are at best a Sweet 16 or maybe an Elite 8 team come tournament time. I will probably be criticized again for saying so, but I think that I am realistic.

If Duke plays the way it did tonight they will get blown away on Saturday against Georgetown.

First of all, we play at Georgetown next Saturday. This Saturday we play at Clemson.

I am not going to criticize you for your opinion, but I do think your logic is flawed. No single game can tell you anything about a team's chances in the NCAA tournament. The sample size is simply too small.

My other comment is, whether you're right or wrong, I don't understand the point of saying something like this. There's plenty of season between now and the Final Four and you act as if none of it matters unless we win the national championship. There's just nothing constructive nor informative about your unsupported speculation (although I'm sure you think it's supported, but in my book a one game sample can't legitimately support any conclusion of this sweeping scope).

[duke4life32182]

I'm am so glad that I found this website. I am a die hard Duke fan and glad to be joining this site. I didn't see a place to introduce myself so if there is someone please help a new member out. As for the game last night, ugly. I would hate to be one of the players today at practice. They showed no heart or energy. That may be b/c Wake Forest took a lot out of them and they have Clemson ahead. Who knows. If we are going to go far in March we better learn to bring it a little better. We also need more than just the big 3 to step it up. I think the Plumlee's need consistency and they should continue to get better. I think the key to our team though producing better is Dawkins. This kid was nocking shots down just a couple of weeks ago. Now he comes in and he is not getting any looks from the outside. We need to get some plays going through him to stretch the D of teams even further. I expect big things from this team but there alot of ifs surrounding them.

[Scorp4me]

I got on here expecting to read the first, instead I see pretty even and actual good analysis. I commented to my dad (I'm in my 30's btw) after the game that when I was young this is the kind of game that would have upset me. But by now in my life I've realized that there are simply some games that you're just not going to win. Every shot they threw up seemed to go in and when Gonzalez hit that 3's with the shot clock winding down from 5 feet out with Miles Plumlee in his face you just had to laugh.

Duke didn't play a great game. We didn't shoot the best, but even early on they mentioned that Nolan was 6-7 while the rest of the team was only 4-10 and I thought...well that's actually not that bad, it was just bad compared to State. Too many turnovers. And Tracy Smith killed us. Today everyone says we can handle tough inside players so I guess Aminu isn't a tough inside player, but actually it's just the common disappearing act our front court players pull.

As someone else already said this game was about State shooting lights out more than anything else. I was pleased with the attempts to try different line-ups, different defenses, anything he could. As the announcer said, and I tend to agree, coach tried all he could and then let the players see what they could do. They just couldn't pull it off.

The refs missed quite a few walks on both ends. But I must say I'm frustrated how Zoo can simply stand there with his hands up and the other player can bounce into him and Zoo will be called for the foul every time. Poor guy can buy a break when it comes to fouls.

[duke4life32182]

Yeah Z doesn't get break for fouls or traveling.

[DeBlueDevil]

I think everyone needs to just let this season play out. No one is going to be able to predict the W/L column this year. All over the country everyone is pretty even depending on match ups. I agree with most that Texas, Kentucky, Kansas, Villanova...LOOK better than us at a glance. But if you look at it there aren't THAT much better.

Texas - once again tough this year, but haven't they been tough the past few years? We defeated them last year in the tourny and remember the day JJ dropped 40 on them? Plus they recently lost to K-State which proves they're human.

Kansas - A very good team but their play recently has proved they can be beaten. I just watched them struggle against a Baylor last night too so they have a lot to work on.

Kentucky - I like Kentucky and they are a great team but still remain young and some how Calipari's teams sometimes do not close. They play in what I think is a kind of weaker conference when compared to Big 12, Big East, ACC...maybe even with ACC but I'm sure they'll be beaten and I need to see them be tested a little more.

Villanova - Will get beat up in the Big East and without Scottie Reynolds scoring 30 a night, who steps up for them? They'll have their share of losses as well.

There are a lot of teams in between that will make some noise and may be better than us or the teams ranked above us (georgetown, purdue, syracuse, msu, wv..etc) But all in all I just think there is no clear cut best team in the country and I think on any given night depending on match ups and coaching anyone can walk away as champs this season...and its foolish not to think we have a shot...it may not be a HUGE one but lets just play this season out...let this team progress and get better..every team has issues to address..so lets wait and see at the end. NC State was a tough loss and I'm not happy either but its a conference loss, they were hungry, had a good night shooting and it was their night. I'm sure K will use these game as motivation to get this team where it needs to be come year end. Keep the faith!

[CDu]

Horner was not his primary assignment, so there is that

Who was Thomas's primary assignment? He began the game guarding Horner, with Plumlee guarding Smith. In the second half (except for when we played zone), Zoubek and Plumlee guarded Smith and he guarded Horner. Seemed like his primary assignment to me.

Now, when Howell and Smith were in together, Thomas did see some time against Smith. But I'd guess that the majority of Thomas's minutes in man-to-man were against Horner.

[grossbus]

have not read the entire thread, but wanted to follow up on the last post on Z. i was very impressed with his effort last night. by far, he was the best of our bigs. the others disappeared. if they kept stats for low value fouls, LT would lead the country.

i believe Z gets some of those foul calls because he comes down a little with his arms instead of keeping them straight up.

props to Z!

[NYDukie]

I agree there are some common themes in our losses, but I don't think it's fair to say we were "exposed" or can't effectively defend quick guards. What BCS team have we played that didn't have some quick guards? UConn has very quick guards. Ish Smith might be the quickest player we see all year. Even Clemson has pretty quick guards. But we neutralized them and beat them handily. The difference is we played better team defense in those games than we did in our losses.

Your other point is more complicated, because you're right that Z and the Plumlees have not proven adept at guarding outside. The answer there should be to play Lance and have him guard the big that goes outside, but then we have to stop the other team's big man one-on-one, which we didn't do so well last night. Alternatively, we could go small and have Kyle on the "wing big" and have Andre guard the other team's 3, although I'm not sure Andre would have been able to shut down Scott Wood last night, either. Hopefully the coaching staff will find a solution to this dilemma.

Exposed is probably harsh and a lil knee-jerk on my part. What I should have said is that this area seems to be an area of weakness that tends to be one of the majors factors in the losses, when they do occur.

Obviously, like you mention there are many a matchups we can put out there to defend other teams forwards and bigs. It is complicated and that is why Coach K is a Hall of Famer paid the big bucks to figure it out...LOL I like overall how our forwards and bigs have defended and this game was more the exception than norm. However, those combo forwards seem to be a thorn in our side where we just can get that right matchup. Z and Miles are not quick enough and Lance and Kyle are not physical enough. That's why teams like Texas and UK worry me come tourney time with guys like James and PP that can do a bit of both.

[ncexnyc]

"Just a word of caution. Don't sell State short. We're coming off a tough, emotional, physical win. This is the perfect trap game."

That's what I wrote the day after the WF game, yet needless to say I saw a number of board members prior to last night's game predicting a 20+ point win for our team. The lack of respect some of you have shown to other teams is amazing. I know we've had some big wins, but we are a team that is still growing and as we clearly saw last night, under the right conditions we can look really bad.

It's funny how all of those calling for major changes were nowhere to be found after those 20 point wins, but for some odd reason they magically appear after a loss.

Do we need Dre? Yes, we need a bonafide scorer coming off the bench to keep defenses honest and keep the pressure on the other team. His time will increase and his shot will start falling again, have faith.

Are Mason and Miles essential for our team to go far? Yes, but both are young and still learing. Remember Miles never really seemed to catch on last season and this year he is getting a lot more playing time and his improvement shows. Mason is just a Freshman who lost early season playing time due to injury. He's shown talent, but he does make Freshman mistakes. There is still a lot of time for him to improve, just be patient.

As for Ryan Kelly, this kid will be a very productive player for our team in the FUTURE, but he just isn't ready right now. In the WF game he came in and in a span of about 1 minute, he had two defensive lapses and 1 turnover, all of which led to 6 Wake points.

Every season has bumps in the road, some more than others. This team will be fine and at the end of the season I'm confident we will be the winner of the ACC's regular season.

I am also going to out on a limb and say that this weekend's game at Clemson will be decided by the 10 minute mark. Either Clemson will blow us out early or we'll come out fired up and catch them off guard and they'll be the ones on the receiving end of the blowout.

[DU Band Prez 88]

First of all, we play at Georgetown next Saturday. This Saturday we play at Clemson.

I am not going to criticize you for your opinion, but I do think your logic is flawed. No single game can tell you anything about a team's chances in the NCAA tournament. The sample size is simply too small.

My other comment is, whether you're right or wrong, I don't understand the point of saying something like this. There's plenty of season between now and the Final Four and you act as if none of it matters unless we win the national championship. There's just nothing constructive nor informative about your unsupported speculation (although I'm sure you think it's supported, but in my book a one game sample can't legitimately support any conclusion of this sweeping scope).


Thanks for noting that in fact we play Clemson on Saturday night. This the ONLY thing that matters to the team right now, and the only thing that SHOULD matter to us at this point as fans. I would love to be a fly on the wall at Duke's practice today to observe how they address what went wrong in last night's game and get down to business in preparing for Clemson. Coach K & staff will do a great job, I think, in getting the team ready and in addressing the key things that went wrong last night (e.g., team defense being A#1 priority).

Let's forget for right now about whether this team can win the national title--or even get as far as the elite 8 for the first time since 2004. It'd be great, and I do think that Duke's team could get that far & even to the Final Four, as they continue to play together and as players such as Mason P. get more experience, but we have over two months of the season to go, for crying out loud!! As numerous other posters have noted, a key factor in our NCAA succes will on how Duke's region matchups line up. We know nothing about any of that until mid-March. Frankly, we should now just be focused on just supporting Duke in their quest to actually win the ACC regular season in what is turning out to be one of the more competitive years, top-to-bottom, in recent history.

Let's focus on the Clemson game, which is going to be a huge test, & let's go Blue Devils!

[duke23]

Who was Thomas's primary assignment? He began the game guarding Horner, with Plumlee guarding Smith. In the second half (except for when we played zone), Zoubek and Plumlee guarded Smith and he guarded Horner. Seemed like his primary assignment to me.

Now, when Howell and Smith were in together, Thomas did see some time against Smith. But I'd guess that the majority of Thomas's minutes in man-to-man were against Horner.

I feel like he started on Horner but spent a lot of time guarding Smith in the second half, especially because there were at least 5 minutes of a lineup 3S - Dawkins - Lance, when Z picked up his fouls. However, I don't feel much like rewatching this game to find out for certain, and I doubt anyone else does either...

[DUKIE V(A)]

Who was Thomas's primary assignment? He began the game guarding Horner, with Plumlee guarding Smith. In the second half (except for when we played zone), Zoubek and Plumlee guarded Smith and he guarded Horner. Seemed like his primary assignment to me.

Now, when Howell and Smith were in together, Thomas did see some time against Smith. But I'd guess that the majority of Thomas's minutes in man-to-man were against Horner.

Thomas guarded Smith man-to-man for the bulk of the first half AFTER Smith had hit his first 6 shots. Thomas held him to two points. Horner got untracked AFTER Thomas was guarding Smith. He also had a ton of rebounds. Thomas did his job on the defensive end for the most part last night.

[Wander]

Before the NC State game, kenpom had us at #1 in the country on offense and #9 on defense. After last night, that dropped to #1 and #18. I imagine that's an unusually big drop for one game. So as much as I would like to complain about Plumlee, Plumlee, and Dawkins combining for two points on only four shot attempts (!), that doesn't appear to have anything to do with why we lost this particular game.

[MChambers]

Before the NC State game, kenpom had us at #1 in the country on offense and #9 on defense. After last night, that dropped to #1 and #18. I imagine that's an unusually big drop for one game. So as much as I would like to complain about Plumlee, Plumlee, and Dawkins combining for two points on only four shot attempts (!), that doesn't appear to have anything to do with why we lost this particular game.

I think that those three didn't get a lot of time or shots because their defense was poor.

[pfrduke]

Before the NC State game, kenpom had us at #1 in the country on offense and #9 on defense. After last night, that dropped to #1 and #18. I imagine that's an unusually big drop for one game. So as much as I would like to complain about Plumlee, Plumlee, and Dawkins combining for two points on only four shot attempts (!), that doesn't appear to have anything to do with why we lost this particular game.

Part of it was that NC State simply shot well (also attributable, at least in part, to poor defense). 2 point jump shots are, typically, the worst shots in basketball. Most teams shoot ~35% from the season on 2 pointers that are not layups or dunks. Forcing those types of shots usually equals successful defense. Last night, Duke was only ok at forcing those shots - 19 jumpers for NC State, or ~35% of their shots. That number needs to be higher - closer to 45 or 50%. But NC State also shot them well - 10 of 19 on their 2-point jumpers. They also shot above their season average on threes. All told, they hit 15 of 31 jumpers (2s and 3s) - any team that hits 50% of their non-layups and dunks is shooting the ball really well.

They were 17-24 from close range, which is about average, or maybe a touch above (layups tend to not be as easy as people assume). But 24 attempts is simply too many close-range attempts allowed.

The two biggest problems from a defensive point of view was allowing too many layups and not turning NC State over. Those two problems meant we weren't going to win. The exacerbating factor (and the thing that made it a 14-point game rather than a 4- or 6-point game) was that NC State shot above their heads even when we kept them away from the rim.

[CDu]

Part of it was that NC State simply shot well (also attributable, at least in part, to poor defense). 2 point jump shots are, typically, the worst shots in basketball. Most teams shoot ~35% from the season on 2 pointers that are not layups or dunks. Forcing those types of shots usually equals successful defense. Last night, Duke was only ok at forcing those shots - 19 jumpers for NC State, or ~35% of their shots. That number needs to be higher - closer to 45 or 50%. But NC State also shot them well - 10 of 19 on their 2-point jumpers. They also shot above their season average on threes. All told, they hit 15 of 31 jumpers (2s and 3s) - any team that hits 50% of their non-layups and dunks is shooting the ball really well.

They were 17-24 from close range, which is about average, or maybe a touch above (layups tend to not be as easy as people assume). But 24 attempts is simply too many close-range attempts allowed.

The two biggest problems from a defensive point of view was allowing too many layups and not turning NC State over. Those two problems meant we weren't going to win. The exacerbating factor (and the thing that made it a 14-point game rather than a 4- or 6-point game) was that NC State shot above their heads even when we kept them away from the rim.

Yes. Nearly everything went wrong defensively. We did a poor job of preventing easy baskets, and they did a good job of making jumpshots when we did prevent easy baskets.

[dukeblue225]

I'll probably be bashed for this but honestly I have to question the leadership on the court. We have lance as a high energy leader but I feel our big three needs to start playing with an edge and become better leaders if we are goin to turn this thing around in time for saturday. Coach k has said Jon is a good leader by example but we need vocal leadership. We also need the big three to impose their will as much as possible while still playing under control and not taking bad shots.

[Wildcat]

We looked worn out from the win against Wake. We don't have the player personnel to have emotional/psychological/physical victories in back to back games this year. We need some easy wins in between that our guys can rest some; albeit pretty hard to do in the ACC. Here's when our depth/bench development would benefit us; when the big three are emotionally exhausted.

The only guy that wasn't was Nolan. (He's playing to leave, IMO) This is when we could be benefit from the perpetual development of specific players; ie. Kelly, Dawkins. May be too late now; as I believe rotation and court experience/PT has pretty much been established. But one thing is sure: Kyle and Jon cannot be expected to play to their highest level and take us to the Final Four playing 39 to 40 minutes every game! Won't happen. They will burn out with overblown expectations and physical play.

We need some other scorers, because we don't have the personnel to overpower teams like we did in years past. We've got to mine our bench for some additional resources.

[Kewlswim]

We looked worn out from the win against Wake. We don't have the player personnel to have emotional/psychological/physical victories in back to back games this year. We need some easy wins in between that our guys can rest some; albeit pretty hard to do in the ACC. Here's when our depth/bench development would benefit us; when the big three are emotionally exhausted.

The only guy that wasn't was Nolan. (He's playing to leave, IMO) This is when we could be benefit from the perpetual development of specific players; ie. Kelly, Dawkins. May be too late now; as I believe rotation and court experience/PT has pretty much been established. But one thing is sure: Kyle and Jon cannot be expected to play to their highest level and take us to the Final Four playing 39 to 40 minutes every game! Won't happen. They will burn out with overblown expectations and physical play.

We need some other scorers, because we don't have the personnel to overpower teams like we did in years past. We've got to mine our bench for some additional resources.

Hi,

Did you mean "playing to lead?" I don't know what you meant by "playing to leave" means? Did you mean, leave early? Did he have a more pressing date that evening?

If you are referring to leaving after his junior year, who or what leads you to believe that? He is going to play with Irving and Curry next year in the back court. Some expected him to leave to be with "Uncle Johnny" at Stanford, but he decided Duke was where he belonged.

GO DUKE!

GO DUKE!

[Devilsfan]

I believe we got so beat up and used so much energy beating Wake last Sunday that we were flat and didn't have any legs. State was great because of our lackluster D. When Zoub who's playing the best ball of his life, imo, well.... Miles played unbelievably on Sunday but might as well of missed the bus last night. He seem totally spent. I love Dre, but he looked lost on the court last night. Maybe playing so many games and practicing so hard compared to High School has gotten to him and he needs to get his second wind. I have never seen Jon foul a three point shooter so late after the ball has been released. And most of Kyle's shots were short. Wrist, tired or both? I think we just forget about last night, let the team have some much needed rest and get on with the season. Be thankful we are Duke and not carolina.

[pfrduke]

I have never seen Jon foul a three point shooter so late after the ball has been released.

He didn't. Kyle did. And it was a really, really dumb foul....

[gofurman]

A lot of people are probably going to say that Tracy Smith beat us that game, but he didn't. There are a number of ways we could have won despite our incapacity to adequately defend him.

1. Don't turn the ball over.
2. Screen well, shoot threes, and establish a perimeter game.
3. Establish a scoring option in the post.
4. Shut down the NCSU perimeter offense (remember the "let Tyler get his points" game in Chapel Hill a couple years back? It worked.)
5. Hope NCSU doesn't make ridiculous shots.

1. State's press frazzled us, and the early turnovers were probably the main factor that set the tone for the rest of the game. Our ballhandling in the first fifteen minutes of the game was atrocious.
2. I didn't see many guys looking to get open on the perimeter. Our minutes, highlighted by only 14 for Zoubs, 13 for Mason, and 10 for Miles, along with nearly 40 apiece for our big 3 and 9 for Andre Dawkins, indicated that we played a good amount of small ball. That sometimes works when we get dominated by an opposing big man, but not if we're not moving the ball around.
3. Well, Miles Plumlee is usually our best scoring option in the post, and K benched him for most of the first half and the start of the second, presumably for poor defense. I have to question this move when he's coming off a career game against Wake, we need someone to score inside, and no one else was doing much better on D anyway. When he came back in, his defense did look a little better but he got very few touches on offense and I had to wonder whether he was playing with his tail between his legs.
4. Forgot to mention- it only worked against Carolina because Wayne Ellington went something like 1-12 from beyond the arc that game. They were pretty hard to shut down, whether it was Gonzalez shooting impossible threes, Farnold passing extremely well, or Horner working in every way possible and playing a Singler-esque kind of game. It's hard to beat a team that's clicking like that.
5. Too bad.

this is the concern going to Littlejohn

[basket1544]

I got a laugh today while I was mourning this loss. I was so upset that Kyle turned the ball over 3 times but was reminded that he kept the State's high scorer from taking a shot in the first half. I too was upset about Nolan's shooting thinking it was lackluster, but he shot 50% - that's great. I was all ready to explain about Jon's lack of greatness last night. A co-worker asked what he did wrong and I said he didn't shoot well, he didn't take care of the ball well and he missed 2 free throws (he had 20 points, 1 turnover). I think we expect such greatness from our big 3 that our standards may be a bit high. There wasn't anything Duke could do against a team that can beat the shot clock with a 25 foot heave that swishes. Some nights that just happens.
That being said, I'm not sure where the Plumlees were, but they should be ready to go for the Clemson game. This is still a great team but we need to focus on the positives instead of narrowing our vision on the negatives.

[Hermy-own]

I got a laugh today while I was mourning this loss. I was so upset that Kyle turned the ball over 3 times but was reminded that he kept the State's high scorer from taking a shot in the first half. I too was upset about Nolan's shooting thinking it was lackluster, but he shot 50% - that's great. I was all ready to explain about Jon's lack of greatness last night. A co-worker asked what he did wrong and I said he didn't shoot well, he didn't take care of the ball well and he missed 2 free throws (he had 20 points, 1 turnover). I think we expect such greatness from our big 3 that our standards may be a bit high. There wasn't anything Duke could do against a team that can beat the shot clock with a 25 foot heave that swishes. Some nights that just happens.
That being said, I'm not sure where the Plumlees were, but they should be ready to go for the Clemson game. This is still a great team but we need to focus on the positives instead of narrowing our vision on the negatives.

Great Post. Our real problem was on defense, not offense. Some of it was the 25 foot swishes, some of it was NC State having a great night, and some of it was absolutely terrible defense. But in general, we are overreacting to one loss in which our team was clearly not motivated enough. It does show something bad about our team - a lack of consistency - but it doesn't suddenly prove that our team is less talented.

Also, just an observation: The two teams that we have severely struggled with - Wisconsin and NC State - both had big men who could shoot from the perimeter. I don't think that's a coincidence. I really hope we get favorable matchups in the NCAA tourney with regards to players like that. I also hope that Kelly can become that player, given a year or two.

[tele]

NCstate did a nice job with their interior passing. Their big guy got a lot of easy baskets and he only missed maybe one shot the entire first half.

Nolan had one good interior pass to Zoubek for a nice basket and a foul shot too I think. Otherwise, Zoubek made a couple of nice passes out to perimeter shooters.

Good win for Coach Lowe. They gave up 20 pts apiece to Scheyer, Singler, and Smith and were still able to hold on for the win. State had good balanced scoring too, 5 players in double figures, and shot a high percentage. Tough to beat a team playing like that on their own court.

When Duke has 4 or 5 players in double figures they will be equally tough to beat.

[DBFAN]

What was the last year we went to the Final 4?

And

What was the last year we lost to State?

[gep]

Tonight's game from Scheyer looked a lot like his game last year. Still a pretty efficient scorer, but not much of a distributor. A big part of why we've been so good this year is that he'd made great strides as a distributor. Hopefully he bounces back to that against Clemson.

A comment... maybe Jon wasn't much of a distributor in the NCST game because there was no one to distribute to? (sorry, I only saw parts of the game) :rolleyes:

[Kedsy]

What was the last year we went to the Final 4?

And

What was the last year we lost to State?

2004

and

2007 ACC Tournament

These are not difficult things to look up.

[DBFAN]

2004

and

2007 ACC Tournament

These are not difficult things to look up.

you know what else is not difficult,.....being polite. This was not really meant to be answered. But the last time we lost to State in a regular season game, was 2004, which is also the last time they made the Final 4. Just trying to give everyone something to be positive about. Next time I will be more clear:rolleyes:

[UrinalCake]

I was actually at that game in 2004 and it was eerily similar to wednesday's game... we couldn't get anything going and they hit everything. Their otherwise pedestrian guards would penetrate at will, make the extra pass and give their bigs a dunk. JJ forced a ton of off-balance runners that never went.

Anyways, hopefully we'll get this turned around. Better to have a game like this now than in March.

[Saratoga2]

I found it interesting that the Virginia coach has stressed taking care of the ball in a forceful way with the team and the results are that his kids are better in that regard than the rest of the, ACC including Duke. He runs extremely high pressure drills, much more than would be experienced in a game and if a player turns the ball over, he has running and negative feedback.

Bennett has focused on:

1. Don't turn the ball over
2. Don't try to make homerun play
3. Lots of screens
4. Going deep into the play clock until a good shot appears

Some of our guys could benefit from this type of emphasis. Too many unforced turnovers. Bennett might cut the PT of players who make the unforced turnovers.

I wonder if he would consider foolish fouls among the silly turnovers.

[Kedsy]

you know what else is not difficult,.....being polite. This was not really meant to be answered. But the last time we lost to State in a regular season game, was 2004, which is also the last time they made the Final 4. Just trying to give everyone something to be positive about. Next time I will be more clear:rolleyes:

OK, sorry. Since we lost to them in 2007 I didn't quite get the reference. Without that connection, I assumed you were actually asking the question. My bad.

[Wander]

Some of our guys could benefit from this type of emphasis. Too many unforced turnovers. Bennett might cut the PT of players who make the unforced turnovers.

Duke is really good at not turning the ball over. We've got a lot of concerns this season but this isn't one of them (unless you're specifically talking about the Clemson game tomorrow).

[Saratoga2]

Yes, Duke has been good with the ball, with Scheyer being very steady. Against Clemson, there will be more pressure.

The guys who worry me are Thomas with his traveling. Ditto with Zoubek. Mason is making some passes that get picked off and Kyle tends to get stripped when he drives into the lane.

I am also worried about making silly fouls against Clemson. Thomas gets called far away from the basket reaching in. Singler seems to retaliate when he is stripped. Both Plumlees tend to bring their hands down on an opponent, with Mason being the worst of the two in that regard. Zoubek gets called bor breathing.

To beat Clemson, we need to limit our turnovers, avoid silly fouls (I am not talking about aggressive rebounding fouls) and keep enough pressure on them to force turnovers on them. I think we can outrebound them and also our offensive efficiency should be better (provided Booker doesn't have a career night. We should also shoot better from the line. If we do those things we should win on Saaturday