MBB: Georgia Tech 73, UNC-CH 71

[jjasper0729]

Watching this game. The 'holes look incredibly sloppy (like they did at clemson) and 'ol roy is looking pretty agitated. I'm also wondering how he gets away with being so far out on the court during game action all the time.

[Cockabeau]

Aw shucks!

[chadlee989]

I love watching the holes get beat

[JaMarcus Russell]

Down 27-9 at home :D If they lose this game, I wonder if voters will still keep sticking them in the top 25 based on reputation.

[DukeUsul]

10 TOs and 3 FG so far? U-G-L-Y

[DukieInKansas]

Enjoying the start - but will wait on the final outcome.

Go Jackets!

[kestrel]

Ol' Roy needs to remind his team that the idea is to have more turnovers than points. Not vice versa.

[RoyalBlue08]

Carolina cuts the deficit to 14, and the crowd goes wild. I could watch this all day! LOL.

[jjasper0729]

why do i have a gut feeling gt will choke this one away?

[Cockabeau]

lol at you, trash talker

[_Gary]

Once observation I think is really funny. Last week when Duke lost to GT there was some talk about lucky bounces and such. I didn't agree in totality with that assessment but there's no doubt the Yellowjackets did get some fortuitous bounces. Yet that was never even hinted at once by the announcers. Yet in this game against UNC where the same thing is happening, the announcer just mentioned that GT was getting lucky with some of the bounces. This kind of double-tongued announcing is what bugs me so much. It's like there's a different standard for Duke and UNC with some announcers.

[BlueintheFace]

Paul Hewitt hates winning

[Duke09]

Once observation I think is really funny. Last week when Duke lost to GT there was some talk about lucky bounces and such. I didn't agree in totality with that assessment but there's no doubt the Yellowjackets did get some fortuitous bounces. Yet that was never even hinted at once by the announcers. Yet in this game against UNC where the same thing is happening, the announcer just mentioned that GT was getting lucky with some of the bounces. This kind of double-tongued announcing is what bugs me so much. It's like there's a different standard for Duke and UNC with some announcers.

especially when a few different bounces and the 4 point Duke game might be different while UNC is just getting beat, down 14 at half.

[hudlow]

I'd bet there'll be more home cooking in the Dean Dome during the second half than there is in a week's worth of Paula Deen shows.

hud

[devildownunder]

Once observation I think is really funny. Last week when Duke lost to GT there was some talk about lucky bounces and such. I didn't agree in totality with that assessment but there's no doubt the Yellowjackets did get some fortuitous bounces. Yet that was never even hinted at once by the announcers. Yet in this game against UNC where the same thing is happening, the announcer just mentioned that GT was getting lucky with some of the bounces. This kind of double-tongued announcing is what bugs me so much. It's like there's a different standard for Duke and UNC with some announcers.

Wasn't it Nessler and Bilas for Duke/GT? It's Patrick and Elmore for GT/UNC, completely different broadcast team. Why would you expect consistency in the comments?

[jjasper0729]

gt didn't shoot a free throw until the second f-ing half

[Stray Gator]

I'd bet there'll be more home cooking in the Dean Dome during the second half than there is in a week's worth of Paula Deen shows.

hud

Yep--according to the box score on ESPN, in the first half, UNC was only awarded 8 free throw attempts. Of course, Tech had none. :rolleyes:

[devildownunder]

So Mike Patrick just mentioned that GT has now taken its first free throw. And it's the 2nd half already. That means a physical team with a tough inside game went an entire half on the road without shooting a free throw, even though it dominated play. We all know the howling there would be if such a thing happened to a road team at Cameron.

[_Gary]

Wasn't it Nessler and Bilas for Duke/GT? It's Patrick and Elmore for GT/UNC, completely different broadcast team. Why would you expect consistency in the comments?

I know, but tell me when you've ever heard Patrick be an apologist for Duke like he seems to be for UNC today. Do you honestly believe he'd be saying the same thing if it was Duke in UNC's place? If so, I've got some swamp land here in Florida to sell you.

[devildownunder]

I know, but tell me when you've ever heard Patrick be an apologist for Duke like he seems to be for UNC today. Do you honestly believe he'd be saying the same thing if it was Duke in UNC's place? If so, I've got some swamp land here in Florida to sell you.

Do I think he'd be saying what, exactly? All he and Elmore are saying right now is how awesome Gani Lawal is.

[RoyalBlue08]

Honestly, I could easily be convinced that Mike Patrick is calling this game today while intoxicated. He seems to have very little idea of what is going.

[_Gary]

Do I think he'd be saying what, exactly? All he and Elmore are saying right now is how awesome Gani Lawal is.

At the moment he is, but he also went out of his way earlier to pull out the "luck card" and use it. I can't ever remember him doing that when Duke was on the losing end of the stick. Patrick, over the last several years, has seemed to me to buy into the "Duke gets all the calls" mentality that a guy like Elmore generally mentions on several occasions every time he does a Duke game. Just noting what I consider to be an inconsistency.

[calltheobvious]

Honestly, I could easily be convinced that Mike Patrick is calling this game today while intoxicated. He seems to have very little idea of what is going.

And that would distinguish this broadcast from any of his others how, exactly?

[jjasper0729]

let the choking begin. gt has let them weasel their way back into the game.. only up 8 5 mins into the second half

[Stray Gator]

The officiating in this game is so one-sided in favor of UNC it's utterly laughable. Now 18 free throws to 4.

[dukebluelemur]

Meh, like how the Heel blatantly trips the Tech guy out of bounds on the fast break...Refs, no foul... ESPN... no replay... barely acknowledges it, and the comment is something about how "oh, well these things even out."

So different than if a Duke player had done something like that :( We'd have gotten 8 replays and missed the next two minutes of game time for a lecture on how that kind of play has no place in basketball.

[weezie]

And the beat goes on. The buzz cut ref is surely one of the worst in the league.

[jjasper0729]

how about elmore talking about the basketball knowledge by the unc crowd when they were booing about Hewitt being outside the coach's box?

seems to me i have been seeing 'ol roy on the COURT DURING PLAY and nary a word about it

[Cockabeau]

Deon Thompson is a very weak player. when he plays against a team with similar size he folds like a cheap tent

[Stray Gator]

I must say, I've watched a lot of ACC basketball since the 1960s, but I've rarely seen a more blatant display of the "Carolina Double Standard" than we're seeing with these officials today.

[Dukeface88]

how about elmore talking about the basketball knowledge by the unc crowd when they were booing about Hewitt being outside the coach's box?

seems to me i have been seeing 'ol roy on the COURT DURING PLAY and nary a word about it

Let's remember this is the same guy that complained about the Crazies chanting "airball". This should probably be expected.

[Devilsfan]

Not a very smart coaching job by Hewitt. Big lead and rushing shots allowing a comback by the opposing team. Terrible.

[BlueintheFace]

Not a very smart coaching job by Hewitt. Big lead and rushing shots allowing a comback by the opposing team. Terrible.

I'm actually not even sure if Tech has any set plays outside of the pick and roll...

[jjasper0729]

i thought the tech set play was to get down court and jack up a three

[dukebluelemur]

Jump ball! Jump baa... oh, no... changed my mind, thats a tech foul.

[DevilHorns]

unc can only score on the FT line. The refs are trying as hard as they can to get them there.

[dukebluelemur]

Graves has hit some pretty clutch 3s though, ill give them that.

Tech was doing pretty good getting it inside beginning of the second half, but they were getting absolutely mugged and not getting any whistles... so now they're just chucking up ugly mid/long range shots.

[jv001]

Looks like Peacock is on the take for this game. Go Duke!

[weezie]

Geez tech. Got all impressed with yourselves.

[dukebluelemur]

Come on espn, lets see a replay of that 'block'.... i dare ya.

[jjasper0729]

i know the refs have to look at a lot (like 'ol roy to get the call right) but can they go back to the rule book and discover what a travelling call is? geez... both teams are taking steps like they are going to break one for 6

[jjasper0729]

Come on espn, lets see a replay of that 'block'.... i dare ya.

hold your breath while yo uwait for it.. i dare ya :p

[Cockabeau]

How hard is it to make sure Graves doesnt shoot a 3?

[Cameron]

This is why threads on these UNC games shouldn't be created.

Every time.

[DevilHorns]

WOw what a great play by Wear. He's a freshman. I really hope he doesn't develop.

[dukebluelemur]

And drew misses it... RAH!

FTs... Facepalm... tech is cold because they havent HAD any tonight...

[devildeac]

justice.

[DevilHorns]

Look at those Heel fans aching to get out as the shot is taken!

[CrazyCat]

Love to be a fly in the UNC locker room right now. Ol' Roy looks like he is a little unhappy.

[Cockabeau]

It ended the very best way. With Roy thinking he had the game won only to lose at the end.

Awwww Shucks!

[Newton_14]

This type of loss by the holes is really enjoyable! First you get to watch them getting blown out of Roy's Gym by 20. Then, they come all the way back and have the lead with 30 seconds to go with the team and crowd fulling believing they are now going to win, only to see GT put a dagger in them and pull out the win!

Wonderful way to spend a Saturday!! Ol Roy is gonna blow some fuses and blood vessels before this season ends. Would love to be in the post-game press conference...

[Stray Gator]

Georgia Tech deserved that win--and it shouldn't have been nearly that close.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Nice losing streak, heels. That sixth man in stripes gave his all for you!

[SCMatt33]

I feel like this is the second time in four games that Ol' Roy has cost his team a good look at a last second shot with a bad time out. Both times, he chose to give up some of his time on the clock to advance it to half court which left his team not enough time for a good play.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

And the great weekend continues! :cool::D

[RainingThrees]

I'm starting to feel like some Carolina fans a couple weeks ago in that i really like Larry Drew at point guard. Without Graves hitting some huge shots and GT refusing to guard him this game would have been a blowout.

[oldnavy]

I feel like this is the second time in four games that Ol' Roy has cost his team a good look at a last second shot with a bad time out. Both times, he chose to give up some of his time on the clock to advance it to half court which left his team not enough time for a good play.

What are you saying, Roy isn't a good in game coach? Come on!! This is the man who let Georgetown beat his team by watching them take 23 outside shots (missing 22 of them) all the while, Hansblah is posted on the block, and never touches it!

[jjasper0729]

think i may have missed the post game interview. I wonder how many times 'ol roy has said that the coach needs to work harder. After clemson he said that over and over that the head coach wasn't doing his job well...

[roywhite]

Tarheels go to 1-2 in the league and 12-6 overall.

I'm sure the polls will drop them from #13 to oh....maybe #17 or so...:)

Really, without some one-sided officiating, this would have been a double-digit home loss.

[SupaDave]

I'd like to take this time out to give Paul Hewitt a shout out for coaching a GREAT game. He takes a lot of flack but he's officially had a GREAT week. Think anyone cares that he lost to Georgia now?

[Devilsfan]

I love moral victories when carolina is moral victor. Great comeback for another L. Hewitt just let his team play an AAU type first one down hoists up a shot. He almost let the inferior team win. And how about that point guard not finishing a layup with 4 seconds to play? I love watching the heels lose almost as much as watching us win.

[RainingThrees]

it was so great seeing roy do his signature squat and constipation face only to still lose the game. I wonder if there is any chance of roy changing his game plan to fit his team instead of forcing his team into a system? nawwww.

[tbyers11]

I feel like this is the second time in four games that Ol' Roy has cost his team a good look at a last second shot with a bad time out. Both times, he chose to give up some of his time on the clock to advance it to half court which left his team not enough time for a good play.

I came on this thread to bring up this very point, but you beat me to it. At least they got a shot off this time as opposed to the end of the Charleston game. I really think that Drew dribbling the ball could have got off at least as a good a shot as Graves' contested 35 footer.

If Roy wants to implement this strategy they need to 1) advance the ball to half court with just a pass. This takes a lot less time. They probably would have had about 3 seconds to inbound the ball instead of 1.7. Or 2) they need to design a play that advances the ball a heck of alot closer to the hoop then where Graves caught the ball today. 1.7 seconds is plenty of time for a dribble or a shot fake and if you catch the ball 25 feet away instead of 40 either of these things might result in a decent shot.

Wait, Roy doesn't need to do listen to me at all. I love watching Carolina lose close games. :D

[CDu]

I'd like to take this time out to give Paul Hewitt a shout out for coaching a GREAT game. He takes a lot of flack but he's officially had a GREAT week. Think anyone cares that he lost to Georgia now?

Well, sorry to pour some cold water on the great week by Hewitt, but his team did lose to UVa this week. So he now has two really good wins to balance the two really bad losses.

[gwwilburn]

I'd like to take this time out to give Paul Hewitt a shout out for coaching a GREAT game. He takes a lot of flack but he's officially had a GREAT week. Think anyone cares that he lost to Georgia now?
Tech loses to UVa and Georgia, but beats UNC and Duke in a span of two weeks. Go figure. (That being said, this is not the same UNC team as in the past couple of years, and Duke was really, really, REALLY off.)

[Greg_Newton]

I'd like to take this time out to give Paul Hewitt a shout out for coaching a GREAT game. He takes a lot of flack but he's officially had a GREAT week. Think anyone cares that he lost to Georgia now?

Seriously. Just look at the last minute of each half today, Paul pretty much dominated Roy.

When GT shows up, they are really good. I really hope their game against Clemson this Tuesday is on TV... Lawal vs. Booker is going to be an epic battle.

[RainingThrees]

Well, sorry to pour some cold water on the great week by Hewitt, but his team did lose to UVa this week. So he now has two really good wins to balance the two really bad losses.

Well UVA must be a good team. I mean they're on top the ACC and on track to go undefeated in conference play.

[jdj4duke]

it was so great seeing roy do his signature squat and constipation face only to still lose the game. I wonder if there is any chance of roy changing his game plan to fit his team instead of forcing his team into a system? nawwww.

The "constipation face"! At last- a fitting description! That is hysterical.

Some of those older Rams Clubbers in the stands just welling up tears like there has been a death in the family are really just awful. Gosh dern it but that Dome crowd is annoying. At least they don't play the Zombie song-

[Indoor66]

At least they don't play the Zombie song-

Actually, if it should be played at all, it should be played at the Dean Dump! ;):D

[blazindw]

Any coach or writer that still feels that a 6-loss UNC team that has lost 2 games in a row (one bad and the other worse than the final score indicated) should still be ranked in the Top 25 should no longer have the privilege of voting in the AP or Coaches Poll. That is all.

[dukemsu]

Happy as I am with the result, I'll sound the alarm bell. During that comeback, it appeared that the Heels figured some things out. They looked like a damn good team that half, till Tech took care of business at the end.

dukemsu

[gwwilburn]

At least they don't play the Zombie song-
I second this. Must be one a handful of schools in the league, including Duke, who does not.
On another note, during the Heel's second half run, it seemed to me that a Georgia Tech player ended up flung to the ground after a shot or rebound, with no call. I'm not saying it was a foul every time, but it sure did happen a lot. I'm honestly surprised UNC did not win this game. Everything, including foul calls in my opinion, was going there way.

[Newton_14]

Nice losing streak, heels. That sixth man in stripes gave his all for you!

I was thinking the same thing. I only got to see the last 10 minutes, but the worst call I saw came somewhere near the 3 minute mark when Lawal got the ball on a 2 on 1 fast break, and gets his arms raked by Drew with no call. Drew then gets the rebound and Graves hits a 3 on the other end. That was a critical 5 point swing and I honestly did not think Tech would recover from it. Credit to them as somehow they did, but that was a horrible no call and as others have stated there was no replay coming no matter what...

[devildeac]

I'd like to take this time out to give Paul Hewitt a shout out for coaching a GREAT game. He takes a lot of flack but he's officially had a GREAT week. Think anyone cares that he lost to Georgia now?

I dunno, SD. After all, he did lose to uva in the middle of the week...

[BlueintheFace]

Could the tournament really be in doubt for the holes? It very well might be...

[tbyers11]

Seriously. Just look at the last minute of each half today, Paul pretty much dominated Roy.

When GT shows up, they are really good. I really hope their game against Clemson this Tuesday is on TV... Lawal vs. Booker is going to be an epic battle.

Clemson @ GT, 7:00pm ESPN2. Should be fun to watch

[RainingThrees]

Oh one other thing, what has happened to Ginyard? I thought he was going to be a breakout star, the senior leader that leads this young team to a tie on top the ACC with Duke. Didn't he get his first points late in the second half?

[jdj4duke]

but the worst call I saw came somewhere near the 3 minute mark when Lawal got the ball on a 2 on 1 fast break, and gets his arms raked by Drew with no call. ... that was a horrible no call and as others have stated there was no replay coming no matter what...

Len Elmore was absolutely speechless about the no call. He just kept saying something like "huh" or "what" or something to that effect. Why he actually didn't call out the refs I don't understand, but it was clear that he was completely befuddled over the no call.

The IC boards must be nearly in flames by now

[devildeac]

Len Elmore was absolutely speechless about the no call. He just kept saying something like "huh" or "what" or something to that effect. Why he actually didn't call out the refs I don't understand, but it was clear that he was completely befuddled over the no call.

The IC boards must be nearly in flames by now

He'll only call out the ref if it's a...

Oh, never mind. We've had that discussion a few dozen times around here already.

[devildeac]

Could the tournament really be in doubt for the holes? It very well might be...

Doubt it. They do have some talent down the road there. Plus, they do shoot a lotta FT:rolleyes:.

[chadlee989]

Happy as I am with the result, I'll sound the alarm bell. During that comeback, it appeared that the Heels figured some things out. They looked like a damn good team that half, till Tech took care of business at the end.

dukemsu

What to let the refs keep them in the game b/c they were shooting free throws well that game. All i remember was graves making 3's and everyone else scoring from the line. And by the way i would not expect Graves to keep up the great 3 point shooting.

[CDu]

Oh one other thing, what has happened to Ginyard? I thought he was going to be a breakout star, the senior leader that leads this young team to a tie on top the ACC with Duke. Didn't he get his first points late in the second half?

Well, first of all, I don't know that anyone was really expecting Ginyard to be a breakout star. I think UNC fans were hoping he'd have a Noel-like senior year, but nobody really expected it.

Aside from that, he's also recovering from an ankle/foot injury that forced him to miss three games in late December/early January. He's had his three worst scoring games of the season in his three games since returning.

[Newton_14]

Doubt it. They do have some talent down the road there. Plus, they do shoot a lotta FT:rolleyes:.

I agree. I just cannot see them collapsing to the point where they miss the dance. Even though they have now lost 2 in a row, the losses were to 2 of the better teams in the ACC. I think they will get enough wins against the lesser ACC teams to get them into the tourney.

[El_Diablo]

At least they don't play the Zombie song

This one? lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjMiDZIY1bM

[CameronBornAndBred]

Without Graves hitting some huge shots and GT refusing to guard him this game would have been a blowout.
Credit where credit is due....Graves was just flat out scary..those shots he was hitting were from 3'-4' beyond the arc.

[SCMatt33]

Could the tournament really be in doubt for the holes? It very well might be...

I have to agree with everyone that this isn't likely. First, they have wins over Mich. St. and Ohio St. Even without beating any top ACC teams those are likely two top 25 wins as long as Ohio St. continues to roll with Turner back. All of their losses other than CoC are to quality teams with only one at home.

That said, I had a general selection committee question that I was wondering about. I know that the committee will give less weight to Ohio State's losses with Evan Turner out because they have reestablished that they he is back and they are better with him back. My question is does the committee explicitly give a team like Carolina more credit for beating OSU than a team that beat them with Turner out? Also, do they get any pass from the committee for the CoC loss with Ginyard and Graves out or do they only look at long term injuries to clearly dominate players like Turner?

[_Gary]

Could the tournament really be in doubt for the holes? It very well might be...

For me it really doesn't matter. They've won two national titles in the last 4 years, so even if they did collapse and miss the dance (very doubtful if you ask me) it's no big deal. I know I'd take that deal for Duke every time. Having some "consecutive tournament appearances" record broken is no big deal if you can sandwich a couple of national championships in between.

[InSpades]

I have to agree with everyone that this isn't likely. First, they have wins over Mich. St. and Ohio St. Even without beating any top ACC teams those are likely two top 25 wins as long as Ohio St. continues to roll with Turner back. All of their losses other than CoC are to quality teams with only one at home.

That said, I had a general selection committee question that I was wondering about. I know that the committee will give less weight to Ohio State's losses with Evan Turner out because they have reestablished that they he is back and they are better with him back. My question is does the committee explicitly give a team like Carolina more credit for beating OSU than a team that beat them with Turner out? Also, do they get any pass from the committee for the CoC loss with Ginyard and Graves out or do they only look at long term injuries to clearly dominate players like Turner?

For what it's worth... KenPom.com had them finishing 7-9 in the ACC and that was with a win vs. GT today. 7-9 might get it done for them (based on name alone) but they would definitely be on the bubble. 2 good OOC wins balanced by 1 bad OOC loss...

Edit: It may also depend on how they finish the season... KenPom has them as underdogs in 7 of their last 10 games. If they finish the year like that... maybe they dont' get in.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Here's my thoughts, take them as you all wish...and I just got in from a road trip in time for the game, am pressed for time, so it will be a stream of consiousness thing...

GT made some big plays, earned a tough win on the road. Shumpert had a great game and should get the game ball...

UNC is certainly playing poorly at times, and the losses are dissapointing, but this team is as not as bad as you all seem to think, and I expect them to get much better taking care of the ball. They are just a really young team, and it shows.

I've been quiet about my thoughts on Duke, and the Heels for that matter lately because I have been having a tough time getting a feel for both teams this season, But I will say it now, I like the way UNC matches up with Duke this year. You guys have fun now bashing them, but you better hope you shoot it like Shumpert, bring the A game, because if Duke has an off, or average night against the Heels, the Heels will win.

UNC has lacked confidence, but I sensed they gained a lot of it back that 2nd half today. They are mad now, you can bet on it, and I suspect it will show from this game forward.

Hopefully this was that breakout game expected from Graves. He showed some toughness out there on both ends of the floor and has stepped up as the teams leader in my book.

Drew is pressing to make things happen, makes a few bad passes, so everybody wants to get down on him, and he can play much better, without doubt, but you do realize he had nine assists, right? That GT double teamed him a lot in the 2nd half with some big strong guards? And he was a bad break away from being the crunch time hero.... and he is a soph...you guys continue underestimating him, and expect too much at the same time, imo.

UNC is struggling with teams playing very physical with them, and GT was doing a lot of banging and pushing that could have just as easily been called as some of those missed UNC fouls. That's obviously the scouting report on UNC and coaches are looking to put a body on someone every time in the paint.

I agree is was a horribly officiated game, but it was equally bad. I won't bother to point some of them out because teams have to play through bad calls, but there were a lot of missed calls on GT fouls...

Roy coached a fine game, and he came up just short. He made some good ajustments 2nd half. like sitting Strickland and playing T wear more...Roy didn't turn it over that first half and got them to overcome a 20 point lead, it's not his fault that UNC struggled to finish the plays...and threw it away so much to dig the hole in the first place.

These Wear kids can play, I'm tellin ya. You guys are going to hate them for 4 years.

This is a team that continues to work on it's chemistry...the TO's and dumb plays continue at the most in-opportune times...and you lose that way...as a fan, I take the glass half full approach and ponder how good they can be if they play more consistanly like I know they can, and hope they develope with the team work like we see from a much more experienced team., like Duke.

UNC is not that far off from being very tough to beat, and can get there if they start believing in themselves.

[Spam Filter]

I basically disagree with everything you said.

UNC is not very good, because their backcourt is very medicore, and that's not going to change.

And their turnover problems will not be solved. I've rarely, if ever, seen a team that is turnover prone solve that problem during a season. It's like a bad free throw shooting team. It is what it is. There might be games that they don't turn it over as much and you will think they've made progress and they next game they're turning it over 20+ again.

Turnovers, like FTs, are usually only improved in the off season with more maturity, more practice, different personnel, etc, fans teams with turnover problems always say to themselves "we can be much better if we can improve our turnovers", but it never happens.

[gwwilburn]

I don't think Mr. Wheat's post was as off the mark as some may think. UNC did look to gain some confidence, though it might be gone after the end of the game. However, I'm not going to write them off. Drew looks overwhelmed, but given time, I think he can be a decent contributor to the team. He's a skilled player who needs to grow up a little, though. Also, I wrote off the 05-06 team, but they really got things together. I'm not sure this team has a Hansbrough, though.
I would be extremely worried had UNC successfully pulled of this comeback. That could be disastrous for everyone else in the ACC.

[roywhite]

UNC is not very good, because their backcourt is very medicore, and that's not going to change.



That's the story on this year's edition of the Tarheels, at least so far.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=300160153

Looking at the ESPN boxscore (which is occasionally off some), they're getting very little from Ginyard, and got some assists from Drew, but also several turnovers. And outside shooting has been a consistent problem; Graves breaks out with a 5-8 day from 3-pt, but the rest of the team was 2-9. Do we see this kind of shooting from Graves on a regular basis, and if he is playing big minutes, does he add much in terms of ball handling and defense?

Obviously, they lost a ton from last year's team, but they have overall talent (at least based on high school credentials) and have a distribution of classes. This is not a classically "young" team and I hate to see that excuse.

Just my guess; they get over .500 in the league and go to the NCAA tourny but not a good year, at least by recent standards.

[loran16]

Mr. Wheat, I expect Duke/UNC to be a toss up both games, just because UNC will take it to another level. Well it'll at least be a toss up at Carolina, but probably not at Duke.

But, still....I have to disagree with a lot of what you said:

I don't think we'll ever really fear the Wear Twins. Neither has ever looked particularly impressive (for example see today's box score), and they are so clearly inferior to the frontline bigs of Thompson and Ed Davis that it's a huge difference with them in the game.

The loss of Zeller was huge...he looked to be growing as a dangerous third frontcourt player. But without him, they're totally reliant on those two guys in the front court.

Henson looks very soft as well.

Meanwhile, the backcourt is an utter mess. Drew is a mess facing any sort of pressure, and Ginyard seems to be having issues (and graves wont do this every game). UNC's best hope is probably that Strickland emerges as a star down the stretch, as he HAS shown flashes.

But really...I don't see anywhere near a great team here. Maybe not even a good team. And certainly not a team i fear.

I might fear UNC next year...but not with these players.

[Saratoga2]

UNC booked really difficult matchups, early in the season, particularly since they are a young team. It was understandable when they lost to Syracuse, UK and Texas. The last three losses though make them more suspect. College of Charleston, Clemson (very good team) and now GT at home. I dare say, they can expect to lose several more ACC games this year and could easily finish with 10 or more losses. With so much talent on the squad, it is difficult to give old Roy a lot of credit for his coaching. I still think UNC is going to finish 4th in the ACC regular season behind Duke, Clemson and either GT or possibly Miami.I'll need to see how Miami does in a number of ACC games before giving them a lot of credit.

[Cockabeau]

To someone who can photoshop.

Please post a pic with Roy in an arm cast and a flea collar in the "constipation squat"

[slower]

But really...I don't see anywhere near a great team here. Maybe not even a good team. And certainly not a team i fear.

It's just like a horror movie, where you think the bad guy is dead and then he rises up and kills you. The Tarhole beast is NEVER dead until you see the evil toilet-water blue light leave its eyes. As I've said before, hate them, ridicule them, but you underestimate them at your own risk.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

This is not a classically "young" team and I hate to see that excuse.


Huh? This is an extremely young team overall, I would think by anyone's standard.

And speaking for myself, I just try to make points, not excuses.

As to why Drew looks "overwhelmed" at times with the ball? My opinion is it's because UNC lacks a slasher, a player who can put it on the floor and get to the rim in the half court from the outside...with the possible exception of the freshman Strickland, who is usually not playing alongside of Drew, and is better in the open floor anyways.

Teams are very aggressive defending with Drew, pressuring him heavily, because they know they have the quickness to recover before Graves, or Ginyard, or D. Wear, McDonald, Henson...the only options available, can make them pay for it off the dribble when he succesfully passes out of the double team or pressure.

Teams can/do get better taking care of the ball as the season goes along. Players get better too. Look no farther than how much McDonald has progressed at this point from how he looked early in the year.

[jv001]

unc is missing the key ingredient from the past years successful teams. lawson was the player that made unc consistent. They don't have anyone who approaches his level of play. Before lawson it was felton who kept the holes on top. Now that those two guys are no longer wearing that ugly blue, the tarholes are just an average college bb team. There will be nights that they don't turn the ball over and can compete, but for most games that will not be the case. They have some good young players but without the steading influence from the point guard position, they are not in the top 20. Maybe not in the top 25. The only way they beat Duke is for the Devils to play awful or the holes play over their heads. Go Duke!

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I don't think we'll ever really fear the Wear Twins. Neither has ever looked particularly impressive (for example see today's box score), and they are so clearly inferior to the frontline bigs of Thompson and Ed Davis that it's a huge difference with them in the game.


Travis Wear took a nice entry pass today with the game clock under a minute and everything on the line, turned on a good defender in position and buried a really nice jump hook.

It was a big time move for a freshman, I thought.

He also did a lot of other nice things defensively, on the boards, and has nice hands catching and moving the ball.

No need to fear him, Duke has excellent young players too, but you should respect him.

Losing Zeller is tough too, but you dance with the one that brung ya, or something like that. It's why you recruit quality guys deep into the roster. Stuff happens.

[Dukeface88]

Huh? This is an extremely young team overall, I would think by anyone's standard.


UNC's starters have more cumulative experience than Duke's, and three of those Duke starters were not playing the same position at this time last year. Yet Duke is somehow "experienced" while UNC is "young".

More directly matchup related, UNC's only favorable match-up against Duke is Davis, and Duke hasn't exactly had trouble dealing with post players this year (Brackins, Booker, Favors).

[roywhite]

Huh? This is an extremely young team overall, I would think by anyone's standard.

And speaking for myself, I just try to make points, not excuses.



Today, UNC started:

Graves---4th year junior
Thompson--SR
Davis---Soph (but experienced and talented; potential lottery pick)
Ginyard--5th year SR
Drew--Soph

How is that "extremely young"?

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Your missing the bench^

[roywhite]

Your missing the bench^

Fill in all those McDonald's All-America guys coming off the bench...it's still not "an extremely young team by anyone's standards", is it?

[Dukeface88]

Your missing the bench^

Who doesn't have frosh and sophmores coming off the bench?

[77devil]

Here's my thoughts, take them as you all wish...and I just got in from a road trip in time for the game, am pressed for time, so it will be a stream of consiousness thing...

GT made some big plays, earned a tough win on the road. Shumpert had a great game and should get the game ball...

UNC is certainly playing poorly at times, and the losses are dissapointing, but this team is as not as bad as you all seem to think, and I expect them to get much better taking care of the ball. They are just a really young team, and it shows.

I've been quiet about my thoughts on Duke, and the Heels for that matter lately because I have been having a tough time getting a feel for both teams this season, But I will say it now, I like the way UNC matches up with Duke this year. You guys have fun now bashing them, but you better hope you shoot it like Shumpert, bring the A game, because if Duke has an off, or average night against the Heels, the Heels will win.

UNC has lacked confidence, but I sensed they gained a lot of it back that 2nd half today. They are mad now, you can bet on it, and I suspect it will show from this game forward.

Hopefully this was that breakout game expected from Graves. He showed some toughness out there on both ends of the floor and has stepped up as the teams leader in my book.

Drew is pressing to make things happen, makes a few bad passes, so everybody wants to get down on him, and he can play much better, without doubt, but you do realize he had nine assists, right? That GT double teamed him a lot in the 2nd half with some big strong guards? And he was a bad break away from being the crunch time hero.... and he is a soph...you guys continue underestimating him, and expect too much at the same time, imo.

UNC is struggling with teams playing very physical with them, and GT was doing a lot of banging and pushing that could have just as easily been called as some of those missed UNC fouls. That's obviously the scouting report on UNC and coaches are looking to put a body on someone every time in the paint.

I agree is was a horribly officiated game, but it was equally bad. I won't bother to point some of them out because teams have to play through bad calls, but there were a lot of missed calls on GT fouls...

Roy coached a fine game, and he came up just short. He made some good ajustments 2nd half. like sitting Strickland and playing T wear more...Roy didn't turn it over that first half and got them to overcome a 20 point lead, it's not his fault that UNC struggled to finish the plays...and threw it away so much to dig the hole in the first place.

These Wear kids can play, I'm tellin ya. You guys are going to hate them for 4 years.

This is a team that continues to work on it's chemistry...the TO's and dumb plays continue at the most in-opportune times...and you lose that way...as a fan, I take the glass half full approach and ponder how good they can be if they play more consistanly like I know they can, and hope they develope with the team work like we see from a much more experienced team., like Duke.

UNC is not that far off from being very tough to beat, and can get there if they start believing in themselves.

So what you're saying is that the 6 loss holes have significantly underperformed to date, been poorly coached, or both. Ok, got it.

[MChambers]

These Wear kids can play, I'm tellin ya. You guys are going to hate them for 4 years.

Not possible, since I like them this year. Nice, average players.

[grossbus]

77devil, Why quote the entire post?

[MChambers]

Huh? This is an extremely young team overall, I would think by anyone's standard.

According to www.kenpom.com, they rank 290th in experience. Gotta give you that one.

[Cockabeau]

UNC has a below average PG, no outside threats outside of Graves and inside they are finesse. Those are bad combinations.

The Wears are stiffs. I am not afraid of them because UNC will always have better bigs than them.

[moonpie23]

Roy coached a fine game, and he came up just short.


short is correct-a-mundo....

[natedog4ever]

Fill in all those McDonald's All-America guys coming off the bench...it's still not "an extremely young team by anyone's standards", is it?

No, you are correct, they are not young at all by today's standards.

The problem is that they have some players who might be good when they get older, and then some older players who just aren't what they have been built up to be. All of last year and over the summer we heard that Ginyard was this epic defender and team leader. Of course, people were just projecting a mythological combination of Jackie Manuel and David Noel, and he's really never been anything close to that.

And Wheat, if you think that Duke better bring their A-game and hit all of their outside shots to beat UNC, you are probably counting on Graves bringing the same game he had today, and a little more. But trust me when I say, it won't be as easy for him against Duke.

[striker219]

I enjoy reading your posts. They're well written and frequently provide thoughtful incite about the Enemy. You clearly see things in a different shade of blue then I do, but I can't fault a person for that. I agree with some of what you said here; UNC lacked confidence and seemed to gain it back in the second half, for example. I disagree with some; I'm having trouble fearing the Where?'s, for example, and I'm not sure about Graves' breakout game coming because he hit 5 unguarded three pointers from the same spot on the floor. I sort of agree with some; while I do think that Duke and Carolina match up well against each other, I wouldn't be surprised to see Duke hold Carolina to 12 points in a half. I don't think it will happen, but it wouldn't surprise me.

What really stood out for me was this...


UNC is not that far off from being very tough to beat, and can get there if they start believing in themselves.

...because while I agree that they aren't very far from being a very tough team, I don't feel that they can get there if they start believing in themselves. It seems to me that they are a "good" team that is very close to being a "very good" team, but there is a ten foot brick wall in between those two locations. A brick wall that they can't shoot over. I don't know whether to call that brick wall a personnel issue or a coaching issue or some combination, but through the first of their season I haven't seen the kind of growth or improvement that indicates that there are better things to come.

Roy is one of the best recruiters in the land, no question, but I'm not sure about his ability to adapt and coach a team that doesn't have the personnel to play his system. Another poster commented on this, but at times this season has been like watching him try to jam a square peg into a round hole.

Or it could just be that the talent is short on experience and the experience is short on talent. Whatever the case, it would still be a bad move for anyone to sleep on this team.

(Also, Roy might want to find that baby blue sling and put it back on, things haven't been going so well since he took it off)

[Newton_14]

It seems Larry Drew II has the simple solution to their woes. Here is his quote:

Point blank," point guard Larry Drew II said, "we've got to come out and swing first instead of always being swung on first."

Unlike Wheat, I think this team is quite far at the moment from being a team that is "tough to beat". That seems to imply that when they reach that level it would take an extraordinary effort from good teams to beat the heels. Huh?

Teams that are "tough to beat" don't lose to C of C and fall 20 points behind in back to back games against teams not even ranked in the Top 10.

The heels are not a terrible team, and like I said earlier, they will win enough games to make the tourney and will likely rise up and beat a team they should not beat somewhere along the way. But they are likely not much more than a middle of the pack ACC team that could challenge for the 3rd or 4th spot in the conference if they can put it together.

[Duvall]

Unlike Wheat, I think this team is quite far at the moment from being a team that is "tough to beat". That seems to imply that when they reach that level it would take an extraordinary effort from good teams to beat the heels. Huh?

Teams that are "tough to beat" don't lose to C of C and fall 20 points behind in back to back games against teams not even ranked in the Top 10.

The heels are not a terrible team, and like I said earlier, they will win enough games to make the tourney and will likely rise up and beat a team they should not beat somewhere along the way. But they are likely not much more than a middle of the pack ACC team that could challenge for the 3rd or 4th spot in the conference if they can put it together.

QFT.

The regular season is half over; at this point, a team is its record. UNC's record is that of a high-end bubble team, and it's time to stop pretending otherwise.

[jipops]

QFT.

The regular season is half over; at this point, a team is its record. UNC's record is that of a high-end bubble team, and it's time to stop pretending otherwise.

If Ginyard becomes fully healthy again, this bubble talk becomes laughable, and I think it already might be. There is no way a team with two legit NBA bound front court players and front court depth (even without Zeller) to go along with the experience of Ginyard and Graves, an improving Drew II, 3 additional McD AllAmerican freshmen coming off the bench.... breath out... will struggle to get to the tournament.

[SCMatt33]

QFT.

The regular season is half over; at this point, a team is its record. UNC's record is that of a high-end bubble team, and it's time to stop pretending otherwise.

I think that is overstating it quite a bit. Despite the six losses, you'd be hard pressed to find 34 at-large teams with better resumes. Remember, a team isn't its record, a team is it's wins and losses. I can't think of 34 at-large candidates that have two wins as good as OSU and Mich St. I also can't think of 34 teams w/o a bad loss, so they can get away with CoC.

[arnie]

If Ginyard becomes fully healthy again, this bubble talk becomes laughable, and I think it already might be. There is no way a team with two legit NBA bound front court players and front court depth (even without Zeller) to go along with the experience of Ginyard and Graves, an improving Drew II, 3 additional McD AllAmerican freshmen coming off the bench.... breath out... will struggle to get to the tournament.

Of course, it would help if they win some games - the tourney selection commitee might like for them to go at least 7-9 in conference play, particularly since Roy doesn't like the ACC tournament.

[moonpie23]

it's fun to pile on....but let's not forget.....they only lost by 1 to a team that beat duke.....

if you take them lightly, you're gonna be depressed at certain times...

[diveonthefloor]

To someone who can photoshop.

Please post a pic with Roy in an arm cast and a flea collar in the "constipation squat"

Sorry couldn't find one in the sling...but this one is funny:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_drUMJ9HF-tQ/R7w3_0XGvXI/AAAAAAAABpU/KSaCntDqewo/s400/roy-williams.jpg

[quickgtp]

it's fun to pile on....but let's not forget.....they only lost by 1 to a team that beat duke.....

if you take them lightly, you're gonna be depressed at certain times...

If today's game was at Tech, UNC would have lost by 15-20. Big difference from Duke losing and having a chance to win it in the last minute or two.

[Kewlswim]

it's fun to pile on....but let's not forget.....they only lost by 1 to a team that beat duke.....

if you take them lightly, you're gonna be depressed at certain times...

We barely lost to them at GTech...let's see what might happen when UNC has to play in Atlanta. So far Duke has protected its home court. Tomorrow should be an interesting match.

GO DUKE!

[devildeac]

Sorry couldn't find one in the sling...but this one is funny:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_drUMJ9HF-tQ/R7w3_0XGvXI/AAAAAAAABpU/KSaCntDqewo/s400/roy-williams.jpg

This one just screams: I need a large glass of prune juice.

[verga]

i've always thought of Roy Wiliams as a great recruiter and an average coach. Nothing has changed in my mind, he is those things. When he has the right talent (future pro's) his running game is amazing and they win. This year he doesn't have that but yet he still plays at a breakneck speed, hence the turnovers. I'm not one to dismiss unc this year but i do see ahead a long and frustrating season. Until roy decides to coach some half court offense and constantly pound the ball down low, they will continue to be a middle of the road team. One thing lost in all this talk about roy & unc is how good Ga. Tech is becoming, now there is a team to be feared down the road.

[roywhite]

i've always thought of Roy Wiliams as a great recruiter and an average coach. Nothing has changed in my mind, he is those things. When he has the right talent (future pro's) his running game is amazing and they win. This year he doesn't have that but yet he still plays at a breakneck speed, hence the turnovers. I'm not one to dismiss unc this year but i do see ahead a long and frustrating season. Until roy decides to coach some half court offense and constantly pound the ball down low, they will continue to be a middle of the road team. One thing lost in all this talk about roy & unc is how good Ga. Tech is becoming, now there is a team to be feared down the road.


"Great recruiter and average coach"---applies to Paul Hewitt also.

[ChicagoHeel]

Here is another Heel fan's take on the team/ game:

1. It was a very painful loss; one that goes beyond standard sting of a conference loss at home. A big comeback capped by a LD II game-winning layup would have gone a long way toward restoring this team's confidence. We could have written the first 10 minutes off to a Clemson hangover and left feeling positive. Instead, it's a home loss, the third in four games, and another negative experience. Confidence is the most important intangible, perhaps other than chemistry, and UNC definitely does not have it right now. Being more confident would not make us into a Final Four team, but it might reduce the "deer in the headlights" portions of games during which dig ourselves into a 20-point deficit.

2. This team's upside is not as high as I thought. Many (non-Duke) fans tend toward the view that the Heels have their problems but they are not far from being a very tough team I used to be among them, but now I'm not so sure. Our experienced players- Ginyard and Thompson- are role players/ specialists rather than first options that can carry a team. Ginyard adds defensive intensity and Thompson has a soft touch and sweet turnaround, but both lack the ability to be a primary option on the offensive end or to really step up and take over a game. They may want to be leaders- Ginyard certainly gets pressured to fill that role- but ultimately leading is by example and neither can do it on the court. They are what they are- talented but limited. The freshman and sophomores have a lot of room to get better- and they will. Three years from now Duke fans should have a well-deserved distaste for all five of our freshman. But none of them is going to improve so rapidly as to become a consistent contributor on the offensive end and correct the fundamental flaw of current team, which is an offense so bad that it undermines all efforts at defense. In particular, LD II is not suddenly going to find his game. I admire all the work he put in this summer, but the reality is that he's Quentin Thomas, i.e. he should be the third option off the bench coming in to give a solid 10-12 minutes of rest for the first two options. With the exception of the MSU game, he's been overwhelmed by genuine competition. He makes more turnovers than he credited with because so many of his passes are ill-advised/ poorly delivered and place teammates in awkward positions. Strickland and McDonald have shown signs, but they make a lot of typical freshman mistakes. The backcourt will improve this year, but not enough to make us a top-ten team.

3. All of the above is cause for NO concern- we're the National Champs and so this year is like playing with house money. After last year, when expectations were so high I was wringing my hands any time we won by less than 20, this year is almost a relief.

[moonpie23]

typical......last year was great, but this year "a relief"......sure....it's a relief heading down the tube to a crappy year.

you WERE the national champs....in 2009......this is 2010 and you've go 6 losses already.

[wallyman]

Well, they are the defending national champs (i know different team, you're not defending, blah blah). And, as someone else said here, if you win 2 NCs in 4 years, you can live with a lousy year like this one unless it looks like the beginning of something alarming, which it doesn't. I think most Duke fans could live with that. As with Wheat, it's a pleasure to get the perspective of sane Heels posters like ChicagoHeel whose post is thoughtful and clear eyed and no more mired in light blue fantasy than many of us are in a darker hue.

[mo.st.dukie]

Well, they are the defending national champs (i know different team, you're not defending, blah blah). And, as someone else said here, if you win 2 NCs in 4 years, you can live with a lousy year like this one unless it looks like the beginning of something alarming, which it doesn't.

It certainly is understandable why UNC is struggling this year and I fully expected it to happen, you don't lose what they lost and not miss a beat. The thing that I find so funny about all this, and why I'm enjoying their struggles so much, is that many UNC fans and the talking heads of college basketball were predicting this Carolina team to pick up right where they left off (i.e. get back to the Final Four).

Furthermore, the ones that didn't think Carolina would get back to the Final Four this year just assumed that the next five years would take the same path as the last five years (have a better than expected year after title, get to Elite 8, get to FF, win title). And maybe UNC's great 09 class will end up being great in the end but there's no guarantee, Henson may just get incrementally better and never make a big leap, Strickland may leave early for the pros, etc.

[DukeBlood]

Alot of you need to be a little nicer with the UNC fans on this board. They have yet to say anything out of place or anything of the sort so in this thread(or in a long time in any others). Wheat and ChicagoHeel made good points even if I happen to disagree with some. We should attempt to go a little easier on them as many of us enjoy what they bring to this community IMO.

Anyway, It was nice checking ESPN.com and seeing the final score! :) I didn't get to watch the game, but have watched three or four UNC games this year. I do have to agree that Drew II is not the PG of the future for the Heels. I just don't see that upside in him, Maybe a Solid ACC type player but thats the limit. If UNC is going to win another championship in the next couple years, I strongly believe its with Drew II contributing 12-18 MPG off the bench.

UNC will make the Dance, They have a couple of really good wins(which usually overshadow bad losses). Well, I have been too nice! I hope the wheels fall off and the lose every game left!

[stickdog]

Which NCAA team will John Henson make relevant next? Find out the next time he plays ...

[oldnavy]

Here's my thoughts, take them as you all wish...and I just got in from a road trip in time for the game, am pressed for time, so it will be a stream of consiousness thing...

GT made some big plays, earned a tough win on the road. Shumpert had a great game and should get the game ball...

UNC is certainly playing poorly at times, and the losses are dissapointing, but this team is as not as bad as you all seem to think, and I expect them to get much better taking care of the ball. They are just a really young team, and it shows.

I've been quiet about my thoughts on Duke, and the Heels for that matter lately because I have been having a tough time getting a feel for both teams this season, But I will say it now, I like the way UNC matches up with Duke this year. You guys have fun now bashing them, but you better hope you shoot it like Shumpert, bring the A game, because if Duke has an off, or average night against the Heels, the Heels will win.

UNC has lacked confidence, but I sensed they gained a lot of it back that 2nd half today. They are mad now, you can bet on it, and I suspect it will show from this game forward.

Hopefully this was that breakout game expected from Graves. He showed some toughness out there on both ends of the floor and has stepped up as the teams leader in my book.

Drew is pressing to make things happen, makes a few bad passes, so everybody wants to get down on him, and he can play much better, without doubt, but you do realize he had nine assists, right? That GT double teamed him a lot in the 2nd half with some big strong guards? And he was a bad break away from being the crunch time hero.... and he is a soph...you guys continue underestimating him, and expect too much at the same time, imo.

UNC is struggling with teams playing very physical with them, and GT was doing a lot of banging and pushing that could have just as easily been called as some of those missed UNC fouls. That's obviously the scouting report on UNC and coaches are looking to put a body on someone every time in the paint.

I agree is was a horribly officiated game, but it was equally bad. I won't bother to point some of them out because teams have to play through bad calls, but there were a lot of missed calls on GT fouls...

Roy coached a fine game, and he came up just short. He made some good ajustments 2nd half. like sitting Strickland and playing T wear more...Roy didn't turn it over that first half and got them to overcome a 20 point lead, it's not his fault that UNC struggled to finish the plays...and threw it away so much to dig the hole in the first place.

These Wear kids can play, I'm tellin ya. You guys are going to hate them for 4 years.

This is a team that continues to work on it's chemistry...the TO's and dumb plays continue at the most in-opportune times...and you lose that way...as a fan, I take the glass half full approach and ponder how good they can be if they play more consistanly like I know they can, and hope they develope with the team work like we see from a much more experienced team., like Duke.

UNC is not that far off from being very tough to beat, and can get there if they start believing in themselves.

Of course it is roy's fault. This wasn't a one time fluke event, this is a pattern. Since when can you seperate how a team plays from the coach? Has roy reached that level over at UNC that he is now immune from his team's sorry play? The UNC nation needs to understand what they have in roy, and that is a superb recruiter and an below average coach. Face it, you and I could have "coached" last years team to the NC. What can he do with talent that doesn't fit his style? Nothing but bang his head on a scorers table!

[hurleyfor3]

um... people? It's two titles in five years for uncch. Florida won twice, then Kansas. Am I gonna hafta edit people's posts for giving them too much credit? And which of you other mods changed my thread title, anyway? I liked the one I had.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

i've always thought of Roy Wiliams as a great recruiter and an average coach. Nothing has changed in my mind, he is those things. When he has the right talent (future pro's) his running game is amazing and they win. This year he doesn't have that but yet he still plays at a breakneck speed, hence the turnovers. I'm not one to dismiss unc this year but i do see ahead a long and frustrating season. Until roy decides to coach some half court offense and constantly pound the ball down low, they will continue to be a middle of the road team. One thing lost in all this talk about roy & unc is how good Ga. Tech is becoming, now there is a team to be feared down the road.

I fail to see any reasoning to back up how Roy Williams is an "average" coach.
Look at his record, the titles, how he runs his program, no way he can be considered average.

With that said, I agree he can be stubborn sometimes to a fault. But it is his team, an he is the coach. Having his team push the ball, is a very similar situation to coach K refusing to play/develop his bench, rest his players, as much as many would like. Who here wants to call coach K an "average" coach because of that?

To the point of Roy not coaching some half court offense, and not constantly pounding the ball down low...we must watch two different teams... UNC absolutly does that as first option, every time that they get set in the half court. The T Wear shot in the cluch I mentioned is a great example of that commitment.

To the fina[ point...GT played really well, shots fell, breaks went their way. They are a good team. They earned the win. Same with Clemson, and CoC played really well that night. On the other hand, on top of not playing well, UNC had issues with injuries and just hit a stretch where breaks didn't help them.

Breaks happen and teams have to deal with them. (UNC not so well lately)

What if tomorrow the front page reads..."Scheyer out indefinately with broken foot" think Duke's fortunes as a team would change? (I really like Scheyer, so nobody get after me for that hypothisis).

Stuff happens to good teams.

But, just because it's Natioal Champion UNC playing does not mean they do not have to finish the plays, and play with the players available.
Nobody should think there are excuses hidden in there from me.

I'll wait until we get into the conversation of how Duke/UNC match up. Plenty of time for that.

[CDu]

I didn't disagree with most of what you said, until the end where you dropped these two nuggets.


These Wear kids can play, I'm tellin ya. You guys are going to hate them for 4 years.

I disagree. The Wears are exactly what I thought they'd be. They are fundamentally sound, but not impact players at all. If left wide open (as one of them was today on a few occasions), they'll hit their shots. Occasionally, one of them might even hit a nice hook shot at a key point. But they aren't impact players right now. I don't hate them now (I like it when they're on the floor instead of Thompson/Davis/Zeller), and I suspect that UNC's bigs next year will be better than them (especially if Davis returns and Henson develops). They are role players right now. And much like Ryan Kelly, they may eventually be be key contributors as upperclassmen. But I highly doubt I'll hate them for four years.

They just don't impact the game. Even if you combine them (which is what you seem to do instead of rating them as individual players), you're looking at a guy who is averaging 5.7 points and 3.6 rebounds per 19.3 minutes. They're the type of guys who won't kill you as 4th/5th options provided you are strong at the other 3 spots, but can't be relied upon to be key pieces.

P.S. - still feel psyched about that idea of matching up the Wears, Henson, Strickland, and Watts against any of our five? Because I am. ;)


UNC is not that far off from being very tough to beat, and can get there if they start believing in themselves.

I think they aren't far away from being a very good team, but I don't think it'll be easy to make that jump. This team doesn't seem to have any mental toughness. It shows up in their turnovers, and it shows up in their lack of ability to handle physical play inside. Unless the freshmen guards make substantial improvement in the next month or so, this team is going to remain an inconsistent team. I'm not saying that they can't make that jump. Just that I don't think it's as simple as gaining confidence.

[slower]

What if tomorrow the front page reads..."Scheyer out indefinately with broken foot"...

If that was on the front page, I would once again lament the inability of professional media types to spell correctly ;)

[Duvall]

P.S. - still feel psyched about that idea of matching up the Wears, Henson, Strickland, and Watts against any of our five? Because I am. ;)


I had forgotten about that (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=338850&postcount=19). That actually happened.

John Henson doesn't actually appear to be good any aspect of the game.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

If that was on the front page, I would once again lament the inability of professional media types to spell correctly ;)

What can I say...I'm not Duke eduKated ;)

[moonpie23]

Alot of you need to be a little nicer with the UNC fans on this board. They have yet to say anything out of place or anything of the sort so in this thread(or in a long time in any others). Wheat and ChicagoHeel made good points even if I happen to disagree with some. We should attempt to go a little easier on them as many of us enjoy what they bring to this community IMO.!

you are correct, and i apologize to chicago heel.....sometimes my responses overrule my gentle snowflake personality...

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I had forgotten about that (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=338850&postcount=19). That actually happened..

Of course it did...and you guys did note the :) and the "just to get you juices flowing" comment, right?

Do I really need to say I was just having a little fun there?

Here's a thought on team depth, which was the whole point back then.

Pick any two Duke starters now and then any 3 from the bench for your team.
I'll do the same.

Give me the D.Wear, Davis, Graves, McDonald and Strickland for an unusual line up and I'll give you a game, probably win...this time I'm serious.

[Duvall]

There is no way a team with two legit NBA bound front court players and front court depth (even without Zeller) to go along with the experience of Ginyard and Graves, an improving Drew II, 3 additional McD AllAmerican freshmen coming off the bench.... breath out... will struggle to get to the tournament.

I agree that a team with all those advantages should not struggle to get into the tournament, but at some point we have to stop talking about what the Heels should be and start talking about what they are. Maybe that time hasn't come yet, but it can't be far off. Right now the Heels are on track to be a 19-win team with an 8-8 conference record, which would put them right on the good side of the bubble. And unless they start getting better and more consistent play out of Drew II and Strickland (not a little better, but a lot better), that's all they're ever going to be.

[elvis14]

Here is another Heel fan's take on the team/ game:

1. It was a very painful loss; one that goes beyond standard sting of a conference loss at home. A big comeback capped by a LD II game-winning layup would have gone a long way toward restoring this team's confidence.

2. This team's upside is not as high as I thought. Many (non-Duke) fans tend toward the view that the Heels have their problems but they are not far from being a very tough team I used to be among them, but now I'm not so sure. Our experienced players- Ginyard and Thompson- are role players/ specialists

3. All of the above is cause for NO concern- we're the National Champs and so this year is like playing with house money. After last year, when expectations were so high I was wringing my hands any time we won by less than 20, this year is almost a relief.

As much as I hate to agree with a Heels fan :D , I pretty much agree with what ChicagoHeel is saying in all 3 of his points (I snipped them for brevity). In fact in point #2, he describes quite well how I have thought of this year's UNC team. I thought that with Davis in the middle and Thompson and Ginyard providing Senior leadership that they had a pretty good upside by March (growing into their youth and talent). Now, like ChicagoHeel, I'm starting to wonder if they really don't have the talent to grow into. The main difference is that if they do have a low ceiling I'll be happy about it :-)

I wasn't very happy with the officiating fueling the UNC comeback. That was not an unbiased effort from the stripes. I thought they were going to do Clemson that way (obvious ignored blatant walking call in the middle of UNC's best stretch in the second half) but UNC just didn't have enough that night to win. I'm used to watching them protect and elevate HansCheater but now that he's gone I expect a more fair call from the refs.

One thing I'm sure of, I'm not going to be calling out the Heels too much until we have a player on our team that's actually beat them in CIS.

[moonpie23]

as much as we love wheat, we should make a rule that he can NOT use any of the material from the last few posts in the event of the heels losing to wake ...

;)

and btw, wheat.....


i'll take smith, scheyer, mason, zoubs and dawkins for a no substitutions game and whip the fire outta D.Wear, Davis, Graves, McDonald and Strickland.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

you are correct, and i apologize to chicago heel.....sometimes my responses overrule my gentle snowflake personality...

I think for the most part the Heel fans here understand that we are playing an away game in a hostile environment when we post here.

After seeing the stuff that goes on at IC (I never post there)...well....We all get carried away at times with our passion for our team. And it's so hard to deliver tone with the written word...how many times do people take the wrong/unintended impression from what we write?
Happens to me all the time, and I try especially hard to use my words carefully here.

At any rate, this continues to be the best college basketball board on the internet, nobody else is even close.

Talk to people like the same way you liked to be talked to and you'll be fine, my grandma used to say.........

[Wheat/"/"/"]

i'll take smith, scheyer, mason, zoubs and dawkins for a no substitutions game and whip the fire outta D.Wear, Davis, Graves, McDonald and Strickland.

What are you gonna do when Z fouls out in the first ten minutes trying to guard Davis? ;)

[moonpie23]

ha....davis will already be OUT of the game trying to guard mason AND zoubs...

davis won't ALWAYS have the ball...

[CDu]

ha....davis will already be OUT of the game trying to guard mason AND zoubs...

davis won't ALWAYS have the ball...

Especially considering that our perimeter defense would keep forcing the UNC guards into turnovers... :)

UNC is experiencing the reality that college basketball is a guard's game. You can do well in stretches with a great frontcourt, but you have to have a good backcourt to win consistently. This is especially true for Roy Williams teams. They put so much emphasis on good guard play to play at the kind of tempo that Roy likes.

I'll freely admit that UNC has one of the most talented frontcourts in the country (though they're a bit soft at times). But the backcourt and wings just don't mesh yet, which limits the amount of good touches that their talented frontcourt can get.

[davekay1971]

I'll hand this to the Holes: they clawed their way back. Yes, I was screaming at the officials, too, and thought this helped the Heels. I was also screaming at Tech and thought they helped the Heels.

HOWEVER...I can't in good conscience feel proud of the comeback State staged against Clemson without tipping a hat to the comeback Carolina staged against Tech. Sure, State was playing a more talented team without any help from the refs...but 20 point comebacks are still 20 point comebacks.

All that being said, despite the fact that this team clearly has spirit, they have problems. Their senior players are role players, not stars or even on-court leaders. Their best talent doesn't have the ball in their hands (ie: Davis and the now-injured Zeller). Their guards are suspect (Drew II) or just very young (Strickland). It's a bad mix.

That's not to say that Roy doesn't have anything to work with. His coaching this season really deserves some criticism. I'm talking about his managing the psyche of this team, his inability to put them in positions to succeed, and his unwillingness or inability to make adjustments in style of play and tactics based on the talent at hand. If he starts making the right moves from here on out, this team can still grow and succeed this season, or at least be in a much better place starting next season. But if he makes no adjustments in what he's doing, this season is going to continue to be rocky and end as a dud, and some of his players are going to go into next season with confidence problems, and wondering what their role on the team is going to be with the (as always) talented class coming in.

[lpd1982]

On any given Saturday flipping the channels you can find Coaches with less OTJ experience than Roy motivating their players beyond their capabilties. I am ASTOUNDED at Roy's body language, press conference language and visual desperation in his current situation. Does he get that his National Championship has made him this front and center public figure and that his team, the student body and UNC fans nationwide take their lead from him in their support of their team? Wins and losses be damned, Stand up man. Lead your team. Pull it together and be a role model, quickly before you become too pathetic to be our rival.

(Sorry Wheat, it's just embarrassing)

[BD80]

What are you gonna do when Z fouls out in the first ten minutes trying to guard Davis? ;)

Wheat's got a point, Z does tend to foul 20' away from the basket, which is about as close to contact as Davis likes to get ...

[striker219]

I think for the most part the Heel fans here understand that we are playing an away game in a hostile environment when we post here.

After seeing the stuff that goes on at IC (I never post there)...well....We all get carried away at times with our passion for our team. And it's so hard to deliver tone with the written word...how many times do people take the wrong/unintended impression from what we write?
Happens to me all the time, and I try especially hard to use my words carefully here.

At any rate, this continues to be the best college basketball board on the internet, nobody else is even close.

Talk to people like the same way you liked to be talked to and you'll be fine, my grandma used to say.........


...Old Testament, real wrath of God type stuff....Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling...Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...The dead rising from the grave...Human sacrifice, Duke fans and Carolina fans conversing like human beings...mass hysteria!

[devildeac]

um... people? It's two titles in five years for uncch. Florida won twice, then Kansas. Am I gonna hafta edit people's posts for giving them too much credit? And which of you other mods changed my thread title, anyway? I liked the one I had.

This is just too funny. I kinda liked his thread title, too.

[devildeac]

What can I say...I'm not Duke eduKated ;)

K'mon Wheat, you Know better than that. The KorreKt word/spelling is: edjumaKated. With the emphasis on the K, of Kourse.;)

[Newton_14]

Of course it did...and you guys did note the :) and the "just to get you juices flowing" comment, right?

Do I really need to say I was just having a little fun there?

Here's a thought on team depth, which was the whole point back then.

Pick any two Duke starters now and then any 3 from the bench for your team.
I'll do the same.

Give me the D.Wear, Davis, Graves, McDonald and Strickland for an unusual line up and I'll give you a game, probably win...this time I'm serious.

And I will take Jon, Nolan, Mason, Zoubs, and either of Andre and Kelly and it likely would not be that close. That would be fun to watch...

and just for kicks lets just make it 6 players each to give us one sub each. You can have the other Wear kid and I will take my 6 above..

[Newton_14]

On any given Saturday flipping the channels you can find Coaches with less OTJ experience than Roy motivating their players beyond their capabilties. I am ASTOUNDED at Roy's body language, press conference language and visual desperation in his current situation. Does he get that his National Championship has made him this front and center public figure and that his team, the student body and UNC fans nationwide take their lead from him in their support of their team? Wins and losses be damned, Stand up man. Lead your team. Pull it together and be a role model, quickly before you become too pathetic to be our rival.

(Sorry Wheat, it's just embarrassing)

I had not thought of that but you actually make a good point. If they are having confidence issues as many seem to think they are, then roy's body language on and off the court is certainly not helping that situation. They won't ever gain confidence if they see/believe that their coach has no confidence in them..

[Kewlswim]

I had not thought of that but you actually make a good point. If they are having confidence issues as many seem to think they are, then roy's body language on and off the court is certainly not helping that situation. They won't ever gain confidence if they see/believe that their coach has no confidence in them..

I sort of er um find the "I've got bad constipation" squat Ole Roy does to get his team going kind of motivating. It makes me glad I eat I a balanced diet. He can be a poster boy for why it is important to have fiber in one's diet. Does Ole Roy have any idea how icky that pose is? :eek:

GO DUKE!

[Kfanarmy]

I.... Does Ole Roy have any idea how icky that pose is? :eek:

GO DUKE! He is coach of a men's team...I hope he doesn't even know that word. ;)

[Greg_Newton]

The Carolina bubble talk, as premature as it may be, brings up another interesting point. At the very least, it seems UNC would not be a "marquee win" should we beat them. So who would our best win be against? UConn, who doesn't look like they'll stay in the top 25 much longer? The host of other ACC teams ranked #18-25? #15 Gonzaga? Maybe Georgetown, if we can pull it out, but we all know what happened with them last season.

It's just interesting that with all the parity in the league, we may not have an opportunity for a top 10-15 win... which doesn't happen much when you play in the ACC. Hopefully it won't hurt our case for a 1 or 2 seed if we're on that bubble.

[Indoor66]

The Carolina bubble talk, as premature as it may be, brings up another interesting point. At the very least, it seems UNC would not be a "marquee win" should we beat them. So who would our best win be against? UConn, who doesn't look like they'll stay in the top 25 much longer? The host of other ACC teams ranked #18-25? #15 Gonzaga? Maybe Georgetown, if we can pull it out, but we all know what happened with them last season.

It's just interesting that with all the parity in the league, we may not have an opportunity for a top 10-15 win... which doesn't happen much when you play in the ACC. Hopefully it won't hurt our case for a 1 or 2 seed if we're on that bubble.

The cure or solution to those issues is to keep on winning. The rest will take care of itself.

[BD80]

... Does Ole Roy have any idea how icky that pose is? :eek:

GO DUKE!


He is coach of a men's team...I hope he doesn't even know that word. ;)

Just look at the color on the team jerseys. He KNOWS icky.

[MrBisonDevil]

It is a know fact that wood benches burn brighter when UNC is a respected opponent.

Am I the only person who wants to play and beat UNC 4 times to Duke each and every year? This means UNC makes the NCAA 65 tourney.

I was at Duke during the Jason Williams years and it was not totally satisfying beating UNC teams that weren't topping the CBB ranks.

[shoutingncu]

...Old Testament, real wrath of God type stuff....Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling...Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...The dead rising from the grave...Human sacrifice, Duke fans and Carolina fans conversing like human beings...mass hysteria!

Is this true?

Yes, it is true. This man has no Duke.

[CDu]

It is a know fact that wood benches burn brighter when UNC is a respected opponent.

Am I the only person who wants to play and beat UNC 4 times to Duke each and every year? This means UNC makes the NCAA 65 tourney.

I was at Duke during the Jason Williams years and it was not totally satisfying beating UNC teams that weren't topping the CBB ranks.

I was just fine when we beat them three times and they didn't make the tournament. :)

Honestly, be careful what you wish for. When UNC is good, there's the chance that they're really good. Those folks who lamented UNC's struggles (in terms of the rivalry) got their wish over the past 5 years.

[oldnavy]

I was just fine when we beat them three times and they didn't make the tournament. :)

Honestly, be careful what you wish for. When UNC is good, there's the chance that they're really good. Those folks who lamented UNC's struggles (in terms of the rivalry) got their wish over the past 5 years.

If it were not for the funk my wife goes into each time the holes lose, I would hope that they never win again.

[cameroncrazy3104]

I was at this game and I tell ya there is nothing sweeter than the sound of every single person (except for me) in Chapel Hill completely sad. You could hear a pin drop from a mile away.

[diveonthefloor]

I was at this game and I tell ya there is nothing sweeter than the sound of every single person (except for me) in Chapel Hill completely sad. You could hear a pin drop from a mile away.

I was also at the game.

Truly a wine and cheese crowd. They cheered twice during the comeback, and never provided any more emotion during the game.

Funny thing I noticed. The students are relegated to a couple of sections in the lower bowl behind the basket, and several sections in the upper bowl also behind the basket. The upper bowl student section was only about half full. Must have been 1500 empty seats. All of the paying seats were full, though (with pretty quiet customers).

I began to feel sorry for Tarhole fans for about 45 milliseconds during the game. Then I caught myself and laughed out loud. HAHAHAH!

[moonpie23]

remember, this is the crowd that sat in their seats, clapped mildly, never raised their voices and left early FROM A FREAKIN KISS CONCERT to get their moca latte's

[SupaDave]

If it were not for the funk my wife goes into each time the holes lose, I would hope that they never win again.

Sadly I can relate to this...

[flyingdutchdevil]

remember, this is the crowd that sat in their seats, clapped mildly, never raised their voices and left early FROM A FREAKIN KISS CONCERT to get their moca latte's

Wow. This may be the first time I've heard a Duke fan call UNCers pretentious (or at least something along those lines).

As a recent Duke grad, I can say that we also enjoy our tasty coffee beverages.

I hate to say it, but if the Dome is a wine and cheese party, what has Wallace Wade been for the past 7-8 years?

[Duvall]

Wow. This may be the first time I've heard a Duke fan call UNCers pretentious (or at least something along those lines).

It's not hard to find pretentiousness from The University of the People.


I hate to say it, but if the Dome is a wine and cheese party, what has Wallace Wade been for the past 7-8 years?

Have you ever been to the Student Activities Center? It's a shrine to passive self-satisfaction.

[flyingdutchdevil]

It's not hard to find pretentiousness from The University of the People.

While I agree that pretentiousness exists at UNC, I would find it hard to believe that they are more pretentious than us. As a student body - and I am only referring to the student body - Duke has an air about themselves in which they believe themselves to be better than most schools and carry themselves that way. I can't speak for the pro-Duke Durham crowd, but the student body is fairly pretentious. And, in all honesty, I don't view this to be a major problem.

However, calling UNC's student body more pretentious than Duke's is like Sarah Palin calling Biden too old when her running mate has standing right next to her.

[davekay1971]

I did undergrad at Duke, then did a year of post-bac pre-med courses at UNC and NCSU. Having gone to all 3, I can testify that both Duke and UNC have equally pretentious student bodies (though, given my relative GPA at Duke vs UNC, Duke's pretentious student body is MUCH smarter). The NCSU kids were some of the most down to earth people I've ever been around and a breath of fresh air.

[moonpie23]

condemnation of one group does not, by omission, abdicate some other group.


just because i am quick to ride the tarheel audience like a rented donkey does not in any way relate to the duke fans....

[Matches]

I was just fine when we beat them three times and they didn't make the tournament. :)

Honestly, be careful what you wish for. When UNC is good, there's the chance that they're really good. Those folks who lamented UNC's struggles (in terms of the rivalry) got their wish over the past 5 years.

I was also very satisfied when we (and everyone else) beat the stuffing out of them. I took to calling them "UNCG at Chapel Hill" and ate up every minute of it. I'm not sure I would ever get tired of watching them lose, but I'd love to try. :D