Air Jordan's?

[oldnavy]

What is going on with the tarholes and all these foot and ankle problems? Could it be that their beloved Air Jordan's are not as supportive as they need to be? Lawson (last year), Zeller, Ginyard, Graves all have had foot and or ankle issues. Time to change brands?

I am only half kidding, I wonder if there is something causing the problems with the heels?

[flyingdutchdevil]

What is going on with the tarholes and all these foot and ankle problems? Could it be that their beloved Air Jordan's are not as supportive as they need to be? Lawson (last year), Zeller, Ginyard, Graves all have had foot and or ankle issues. Time to change brands?

I am only half kidding, I wonder if there is something causing the problems with the heels?

It's all in the nickname...

[greybeard]

Simple, the answer is "polygone de sustentation." For you mooks, if your center of gravity gets pushed outside the polygon that your feet form within which the center must remain (a function of height from the polygon), the thing will fall, unless the body does something to offset the forces of gravity. Stress is put on the polygon through the leg muscles which are working like crazy to keep you upright. Sometimes the polygon breaks.

In simpler terms, you ask guys to do things that they perform less than ideally that puts their weight outside of where it needs to be, the system gets stressed. You might do something with your upper body to keep from falling, even though your center of gravity would otherwise cause it (think skiing here sports fans--your center of gravity on a turn is way outside your skiis to the left you lean with your upper body to the right), but the strain on your feet and ankles can be enormous.

Now, the thing that trainers work the least on are the feet. In fact, form-fitted shoes are usually placed on an athlete's feet BEFORE they begin stretching and working out. NEITHER TRAINERS NOR ATHLETES DO ANYTHING AS PART OF A ROUTINE TO HELP BETTER ALIGN THE METATARSALS OF THE FEET SO, THE MACHINE THAT THEY MAKE WITH THE ANKLE WILL PERFORM OPTIMALLY IN WITHSTANDING STRESS AND TRANSFERING ENERGY.

Thus, Roy has guys running the floor and doing stuff that puts them in positions in which the laws of physics put too much stress on poorly aligned feet.

Or, it might be the water. :o

[CrazieDUMB]

All I know is, every time I work out I make sure to step into my laser-guided foot alignment machine first. I knew those BMEs were on to something...

[SupaDave]

And in Lawson's case - he didn't even tie his shoes...

[PSurprise]

And in Lawson's case - he didn't even tie his shoes...

I think they have a few classes for that at UNC-remedial and advanced. Must not have fit into his schedule...:)

[greybeard]

Go ahead and laugh, or come to me, a soon to be certified Feldenkrais Practitioner, and I could help do wonders for those puppies of yours. :cool:

[greybeard]

Here's a few short, good tips:

When at home, go barefoot as much as possible.

When watching games, instead of twiddling your fingers when you get nervous, play with your toes, each individually, elongate each one, twirl it gently (if you do it gently enough and find the right direction, you will twirl your metatarsals as well), and then interlace the fingers of your hand with your toes from the top (cross your ankle over your other knee before trying this, I will not be responsible for anyone who reaches down to the floor to try this and yanks out his back).

When you get to the gym, take a 6" roller, they all have them, place it about a foot from a wall, put hands gently on wall, and step on roller with one foot, the other on floor, and roll the foot all the way up to the top joint on the toes and then back to the arch, SLOWLY. Make each roll its own thing. Do 10 times. Then step onto the roller with the same foot. Once settled. Step up with the other foot. If the other foot is the LEFT, lift the right shoulder blade towards the ceiling a little as you step up. OH, DO DO THIS WITHOUT YOUR SHOES ON.

Then switch feet. Better than any stretching exercise you could ever do.

Don't mention it. :)

[CrazieDUMB]

Go ahead and laugh, or come to me, a soon to be certified Feldenkrais Practitioner, and I could help do wonders for those puppies of yours. :cool:

Haha i believe it. It's always surprising to me when I hear docs talk about how most knee/back problems are caused by your feet distributing weight improperly. It makes total sense though, I mean there's a reason the hardest part about building a building is setting a foundation. It's also crazy to me when I think about the shoes that Larry Bird played in.

Do you really think though that Roy designs plays that have people cut too hard?

Also, I'm completely blanking here, but wasnt there some incident 10-15 years ago when an NCAA player had his shoe basically explode during a fast break and it completely ruined the public perception of that brand? Anyone know what I'm talking about here?

[greybeard]

Haha i believe it. It's always surprising to me when I hear docs talk about how most knee/back problems are caused by your feet distributing weight improperly. It makes total sense though, I mean there's a reason the hardest part about building a building is setting a foundation. It's also crazy to me when I think about the shoes that Larry Bird played in.

Do you really think though that Roy designs plays that have people cut too hard?

Also, I'm completely blanking here, but wasnt there some incident 10-15 years ago when an NCAA player had his shoe basically explode during a fast break and it completely ruined the public perception of that brand? Anyone know what I'm talking about here?

I think all coaches at a top level have players playing too hard and that that is a major cause of injury in basketball. And, it is not cutting to hard that is the issue necessarily.

If you play fast-break basketball and are required to reach for a pass in an awkward fashion as a big guy on the move, the stresses placed on maintaining balance because you have or are about to move outside the paragon of sustentation will cause injury more than if you are running the floor at a more normal pace.

Closer to home, get down in a slap-the-floor defensive position, are your ankles and feet more tense (less free to move or more). I'm sure you will find that it is the former. Now, your paragon of sustentation will have a greater range of stability, you will be able to shift your upper body and butt from side to side and remain in balance much further than if you were more upright, but if you step wrongly, are pushed or cut in a manner that causes your upper body to shift with great momentum, your feet and your ankle are much less equipped to deal with the sudden force flexibly, to absorb the force. Do it enough, the connective tissue or small bones are more likely to break down, especially if your feet are out of whack to begin with. (And, just stand barefoot sometime, and look at the different shapes and directions of the toes, where the weight is on each foot. A freakin mess that trainers ignore. Not me and my Feldenkrais colleagues we don't.) Just a theory.

By the way, if you try the thing with the roller, and do just one foot, see what it feels like to stand and then walk around a bit. I think you will be surprised how different one side of the body feels, from these simple little movements. (Do not press into the roller when rolling your foot, just let your foot mold to the roller). The same with playing with the toes. Both will considerably diminish the residual tension held in the muscles--in the calves, shins, hammies, quads, gluts and even up into the shoulder girdle. No, it's true.

[oldnavy]

Here's a few short, good tips:

When at home, go barefoot as much as possible.

When watching games, instead of twiddling your fingers when you get nervous, play with your toes, each individually, elongate each one, twirl it gently (if you do it gently enough and find the right direction, you will twirl your metatarsals as well), and then interlace the fingers of your hand with your toes from the top (cross your ankle over your other knee before trying this, I will not be responsible for anyone who reaches down to the floor to try this and yanks out his back).

When you get to the gym, take a 6" roller, they all have them, place it about a foot from a wall, put hands gently on wall, and step on roller with one foot, the other on floor, and roll the foot all the way up to the top joint on the toes and then back to the arch, SLOWLY. Make each roll its own thing. Do 10 times. Then step onto the roller with the same foot. Once settled. Step up with the other foot. If the other foot is the LEFT, lift the right shoulder blade towards the ceiling a little as you step up. OH, DO DO THIS WITHOUT YOUR SHOES ON.

Then switch feet. Better than any stretching exercise you could ever do.

Don't mention it. :)

Greybeard, you are starting to scare me.

[greybeard]

Greybeard, you are starting to scare me.

I see your point, I got the shoulder blades mixed up. You lift the same shoulder blade that you are shifting your weight onto as you step up with your other foot. Otherwise, you would be pushing down on the side you are trying to lift, which would be counterproductive. Wee, glad you caught that. You think I'm starting to scare you? :eek:

[weezie]

play with your toes, each individually, elongate each one, twirl it gently (if you do it gently enough and find the right direction, you will twirl your metatarsals as well), and then interlace the fingers of your hand with your toes from the top


Congratulations on your impending certification but if my husband starts playing with his feet while we are watching a game, I may just freak out. :eek:

[Newton_14]

Greybeard, you are starting to scare me.

Actually this is one of his simpler explanations!:D


His big man/post play diagnosis is much more complex and interesting!


All in fun Greybeard....I am one of your fans!

Carry on..

[Tappan Zee Devil]

Actually this is one of his simpler explanations!:D

His big man/post play diagnosis is much more complex and interesting!

All in fun Greybeard....I am one of your fans!

Carry on..

Let's not go there. Last time we had that discussion, I tried to follow it and ended up with a headache that lasted three days

[jobin]

Here is an interesting tid bit. I currently go to Appalachian State University which is now coached again by Buzz Peterson (MJ's college roommate/teammate). With Buzz coming back the basketball team here is now sponsored by Jordan for this season. I know that during the first week of practice around 7 or 8 players' Jordans blew out and there were some ankle injuries but nothing real severe. So this actually could be the case.

[Jim3k]

As long ago as the 1961-64 years, Jeff Mullins used to go though one pair of Converse All-Stars in a game. Those shoes were the best of their time, yet still couldn't hold up to what an elite athlete like Mullins could do.

[CharlotteExpress]

Being a former D1 basketball player, I can assure you that "air jordans" have absolutly no achillies support. Worst pair of "basketball" shoes on the market. If it wasn't for the name, they would be sold in Payless or would be next to the Starburys in Steve and Barrys.

[oldnavy]

Being a former D1 basketball player, I can assure you that "air jordans" have absolutly no achillies support. Worst pair of "basketball" shoes on the market. If it wasn't for the name, they would be sold in Payless or would be next to the Starburys in Steve and Barrys.

"It must be the shoes!" I refuse to buy Nike shoe for reasons dating back to some ads and sponsors around Christmas several years ago. They offended me, so I stopped buying them for that reason ( I am a rebel at heart!). I prefer Reebok, but that is just me. I know Duke is a Nike school, so I do have some Nike appearal but that is because I love Duke more than I dislike Nike, but no Nike shoes for me.

[Indoor66]

New Balance, New Balance,
New Balance, New Balance,
New Balance, New Balance,
New Balance, New Balance

[greybeard]

Air Jordans stink. Got a pair a few years ago and couldn't jump an inch. Of course, the same was true when I was a teenager playing in my converses. :o

[oldnavy]

New Balance, New Balance,
New Balance, New Balance,
New Balance, New Balance,
New Balance, New Balance

Great running shoe, not such a great basketball shoe IMO.

[oldnavy]

Air Jordans stink. Got a pair a few years ago and couldn't jump an inch. Of course, the same was true when I was a teenager playing in my converses. :o

Remember the PF Flyers? The ad they had that showed a kid jumping over stuff when he put them on? That costs me a few stitches when I didn't clear the cedar fence in my front yard.

[SupaDave]

Remember the PF Flyers? The ad they had that showed a kid jumping over stuff when he put them on? That costs me a few stitches when I didn't clear the cedar fence in my front yard.

OH MY GOD!!! I just spit coffee on the screen. This brought to mind how fast I used to think I was b/c I had some "Zips"...

[SupaDave]

And I thought I'd show exactly what the team is wearing...
http://www.bustersports.com/blog/acc-news/2009/11/15/its-gotta-be-the-shoes-what-the-unc-mens-basketball-team-is-wearing/

Personally I'm a life long Jordan fan. I supported MJ since the first shoe and intentionally got my shoe a half size too big so I wouldn't have to get SKY Jordans which was not considered equal by teenagers at the time.

As far as the shoe goes - if you can afford to play basketball in them - there really is no comparison. Adidas doesn't have the arch support, Reebok is cheap, UnderArmor probably cannot even be mentioned right now, and the rest like Fila, Puma, Pony, AND1, the Starburys, and Converse barely even scratch the surface...

[jjasper0729]

it must be the shoes. Zeller is now out either 4-6 weeks (N&O) or indefinitely (wral) depending on which report you read.

looks like the dave mcclure show over there for him now

[uncwdevil]

it must be the shoes. Zeller is now out either 4-6 weeks (N&O) or indefinitely (wral) depending on which report you read.

looks like the dave mcclure show over there for him now

If Zeller came to Duke Hospital for the Carlos Boozer Treatment, I assume it would be unethical to turn him away?

[greybeard]

I like a wide toe box on my shoes. Toes are very important in making subtle shifts in weight and direction of force. In good feet, they're smart (actually, we have learned to use them well and that ability has become habitual and unnoticeable), and a tremendous asset. If they are scrunched into a narrow fronted shoe, I believe that the foot becomes a less adaptive and therefore effective tool. Arch supports are comfortable, but can they fight? Nope, again they inhibit movement in the foot, elongation in the arch and through the joints in the upper foot, which can be a difference maker. Save em for your high-end casual/outdoor shoes.

[riverside6]

Bobby Frasor agrees and questions the shoes...

http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_NewsBreaker_External.asp?NB=2977 (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_NewsBreaker_External.asp?NB=2977)

[oldnavy]

I like a wide toe box on my shoes. Toes are very important in making subtle shifts in weight and direction of force. In good feet, they're smart (actually, we have learned to use them well and that ability has become habitual and unnoticeable), and a tremendous asset. If they are scrunched into a narrow fronted shoe, I believe that the foot becomes a less adaptive and therefore effective tool. Arch supports are comfortable, but can they fight? Nope, again they inhibit movement in the foot, elongation in the arch and through the joints in the upper foot, which can be a difference maker. Save em for your high-end casual/outdoor shoes.

What is it with you and feet??

[greybeard]

What is it with you and feet??

No one brings up the parts I'm really interested in. :o Actually, if you're interested in sports like basketball, soccer, and lacrosse, which comprise my favs, it seems to me that you have to be very interested in how feet operate and how to maximize the chances that they operate effectively, efficiently, and safely, no?

Many people write about how this player or that has to improve his hops, get quicker, get stronger, etc. The machine that is the feet, their efficiency, has an exponential effect on the amount of force that pressing into the ground generates. Nature knows of no other possibilities. Yet, most people talk about everything under the sun but the feet when discussing the aforementioned. How come?

[oldnavy]

No one brings up the parts I'm really interested in. :o Actually, if you're interested in sports like basketball, soccer, and lacrosse, which comprise my favs, it seems to me that you have to be very interested in how feet operate and how to maximize the chances that they operate effectively, efficiently, and safely, no?

Many people write about how this player or that has to improve his hops, get quicker, get stronger, etc. The machine that is the feet, their efficiency, has an exponential effect on the amount of force that pressing into the ground generates. Nature knows of no other possibilities. Yet, most people talk about everything under the sun but the feet when discussing the aforementioned. How come?

Well, I will agree with you that you need to have feet to play those sports, and many most other sports too. :)

[greybeard]

Well, I will agree with you that you need to have feet to play those sports, and many most other sports too. :)

Use them well my friend, your feet that is, and you will jump higher, run faster, hit harder, shoot with greater ease and accuracy, swing with more fluidity and power, and, I believe that this is where we began, your body will wear better. Or maybe not. As my old man used to say at such a point as this, "You pays your money and you takes your chances."

[Hancock 4 Duke]

What shoes do the Duke players wear? It always seems to me that their shoes are always mismatched (Compared player to player, not that they would have two different shoes on their feet)

[DukieInKansas]

Here's a few short, good tips:

When at home, go barefoot as much as possible.

When watching games, instead of twiddling your fingers when you get nervous, play with your toes, each individually, elongate each one, twirl it gently (if you do it gently enough and find the right direction, you will twirl your metatarsals as well), and then interlace the fingers of your hand with your toes from the top (cross your ankle over your other knee before trying this, I will not be responsible for anyone who reaches down to the floor to try this and yanks out his back).
Don't mention it. :)

I definitely believe in the barefoot at home - although socks are manditory in the winter due to cold floors. Of course, that is probably due to childhood years in Japan - shoes came off at the door and I didn't like slippers.

I'll have to try the toe tips. On the occasions when I polish my toe nails, I use the foam toe separators and leave them in until the toes are totally dry. My feet always feel great when I take them out. Therefore, I think I'm going to love the exercise you describe.


Congratulations on your impending certification but if my husband starts playing with his feet while we are watching a game, I may just freak out. :eek:

Ditto on the congratulations. But Weezie, don't freak out if you husband plays with his feet. Just get him to give you a wonderful foot massage instead. :D

[thomas]

Greybeard appears to have considerable insight into this subject. Let me add a bit more food for thought ...

There is a growing interest in the contribution of shoes, specifically running shoes, to the increasing incidence of foot injuries among runners. I am not aware of any analyses in other sports but some likely exists. The theory is that our dependence on cushioned running shoes has led to the decline in the strength and adaptive ability of the intrinsic muscles of our feet. We have moved further and further away from our origins, which involved running barefoot. In fact, there is a growing interest in training (if not running all the time) without shoes, or running in minimalist shoes, like Nike's Free or Vibram's "5 Finger" shoes to strengthen the feet and reduce injuries.

There is some interesting reading out there if you want to look into this further. Maybe Nike and The K lab ought to explore this also. We've had our own share of foot injuries (Brand and Boozer come to mind). Just don't tell the UNC trainers.

[SupaDave]

Greybeard appears to have considerable insight into this subject. Let me add a bit more food for thought ...

There is a growing interest in the contribution of shoes, specifically running shoes, to the increasing incidence of foot injuries among runners. I am not aware of any analyses in other sports but some likely exists. The theory is that our dependence on cushioned running shoes has led to the decline in the strength and adaptive ability of the intrinsic muscles of our feet. We have moved further and further away from our origins, which involved running barefoot. In fact, there is a growing interest in training (if not running all the time) without shoes, or running in minimalist shoes, like Nike's Free or Vibram's "5 Finger" shoes to strengthen the feet and reduce injuries.

There is some interesting reading out there if you want to look into this further. Maybe Nike and The K lab ought to explore this also. We've had our own share of foot injuries (Brand and Boozer come to mind). Just don't tell the UNC trainers.

Man I'm all about inserts. I NEVER have foot problems...

[TheBrianZoubekExperience]

I have the KSO model of the the Virbram Five Finger shoes and really like them. I run in them, wear them in the house sometimes and on errands. Can't play basketball in them but I like them as an everyday shoe. They are really comfortable (need to get the right size in a shoe store, would not suggest ordering online, need a tight fit) once you get used to them. They look really weird but are super comfortable, let you toes stretch out and supposedly strengthen your feet.

http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/indexNA.cfm

[greybeard]

Man I'm all about inserts. I NEVER have foot problems...

If you stand up barefoot, without even looking down, you might be surprised what a mess your feet are. Some toes hammered, some curled, all pointing in differnet direction, some not touching the floor at all, feet themselves pointing in different directionsm weight distributed wildly differently on each foot.

The toes being askew are a function of the muscles of the leg. You got no muscles in the feet themselves that would cause such a mess. The mess among your toes goes up into the metatarsals, prevents natural ability of em to rotate, and the joint in the upper foot, which can't move much, to move even the little which is important. The lower joints of the toe itself, there are two, also function pretty wierdly, have tendencies to move in different directions (vectors) although the vectors are somtimes curved.

You play with your toes even the little I have suggested (see a post last year I think for a more detailed regimen), and you will be surprised for the better. Guaranteed.

Inserts are fine. I am not sure at all about shoes that lock one's foot in. I know that shoes that crunch the toes together cannot possibly be good--in the sense of maximizing the ease and efficacy of using your feet to amulate.

[Ultrarunner]

I have the KSO model of the the Virbram Five Finger shoes and really like them. I run in them, wear them in the house sometimes and on errands. Can't play basketball in them but I like them as an everyday shoe. They are really comfortable (need to get the right size in a shoe store, would not suggest ordering online, need a tight fit) once you get used to them. They look really weird but are super comfortable, let you toes stretch out and supposedly strengthen your feet.

http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/indexNA.cfm

I'm headed for Vegas for a convention tomorrow - the shoe store is on my list of things to do. I can barely get decent running shoes where I'm at much less Five Fingers. Usually, I order online and take my chances. A store in Vegas has them though - it's only a four mile run from the hotel to the store in balmy 50-60 degree weather. I'll be checking them out. Might not work for me though as one foot is larger (substantially so) than the other. :confused:

I did just get a pair of NB trail shoes (MT100's) that are incredibly light and responsive. They also have a rock plate under the ball of the foot to minimize stone bruises.

I wonder if some of the foot problems Zoubs had were shoe related. He's looking much more comfortable in lateral movements this year.

[diesel]

Here's a few short, good tips:

When at home, go barefoot as much as possible.

When watching games, instead of twiddling your fingers when you get nervous, play with your toes, each individually, elongate each one, twirl it gently (if you do it gently enough and find the right direction, you will twirl your metatarsals as well), and then interlace the fingers of your hand with your toes from the top (cross your ankle over your other knee before trying this, I will not be responsible for anyone who reaches down to the floor to try this and yanks out his back).

When you get to the gym, take a 6" roller, they all have them, place it about a foot from a wall, put hands gently on wall, and step on roller with one foot, the other on floor, and roll the foot all the way up to the top joint on the toes and then back to the arch, SLOWLY. Make each roll its own thing. Do 10 times. Then step onto the roller with the same foot. Once settled. Step up with the other foot. If the other foot is the LEFT, lift the right shoulder blade towards the ceiling a little as you step up. OH, DO DO THIS WITHOUT YOUR SHOES ON.

Then switch feet. Better than any stretching exercise you could ever do.

Don't mention it. :)

Thanks, Greybeard, for what is possibly the most useful of the two useful pieces of advice I have received from DBR.

Your advice may actually help offset the effects of the other piece of useful advice: the Duke vs kentucky recommendations on barbecue!