Retire Scheyer?

[buckshot]

Assuming Scheyer keeps playing the way he has, is he worthy of having his number retired? I know it is early, but it seems that we would meet all the requirements (graduation, potential all American status, potential school record with season assist / turnover)
What do you guys think?

[Kedsy]

Assuming Scheyer keeps playing the way he has, is he worthy of having his number retired? I know it is early, but it seems that we would meet all the requirements (graduation, potential all American status, potential school record with season assist / turnover)
What do you guys think?

Personally, I'd rather just appreciate the way he's playing and worry about this sort of thing after the season. Which is a long way off. But possibly that's just me.

[rthomas]

I'd like to see a long run in March and he gets a ring.

[DoubleDuke Dad]

Retire Scheyer?

No, I think we should let him play the rest of the year. :)

[CDu]

Not unless he wins National Player of the Year and/or leads the team to a national championship. There are a number of Duke greats who don't have their numbers retired, including three guys who topped 2,000 points (Alarie, Banks, Spanarkel).

Scheyer is having a great senior season to cap a very solid Duke career. But unless the team has a great March/April AND Scheyer continues his phenomenal start individually, I just don't see him getting his jersey retired.

But that's not a discredit to Scheyer. It's just a credit to the great careers of the guys whose numbers are retired. I agree with the poster who said let's just enjoy Scheyer's season as is.

[BlueintheFace]

No Gene Banks then No Jon Scheyer. He MUST lead us to a championship before I consider it. That is that.

[91_92_01_10_15]

Not unless he wins National Player of the Year and/or leads the team to a national championship. There are a number of Duke greats who don't have their numbers retired, including three guys who topped 2,000 points (Alarie, Banks, Spanarkel).

Scheyer is having a great senior season to cap a very solid Duke career. But unless the team has a great March/April AND Scheyer continues his phenomenal start individually, I just don't see him getting his jersey retired.

But that's not a discredit to Scheyer. It's just a credit to the great careers of the guys whose numbers are retired. I agree with the poster who said let's just enjoy Scheyer's season as is.

I'm pretty sure that Duke has standard qualifications that must be met before a jersey can be retired. IIRC, when JJ and Shelden were being considered for the honor, they said that it was automatic if a player is voted national player of the year or defensive player of the year.

[Kedsy]

I'm pretty sure that Duke has standard qualifications that must be met before a jersey can be retired. IIRC, when JJ and Shelden were being considered for the honor, they said that it was automatic if a player is voted national player of the year or defensive player of the year.

Nothing is automatic. Tommy Amaker, Billy King, and Wojo all won national defensive player of the year, and you won't ever see any of their jerseys in the rafters (well, Amaker's number is up there, but not because he wore it).

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

One of the intangible qualifications which is shared by the Duke players whose numbers are retired is program changing influence.

I love watching Jon play and think he's a premier player, but I'm not sure that he's significantly changed the Duke program..... yet.

At this point, if any player's number were to be retired, it would be Gene Banks who was overlooked earlier.

As for being automatic, retiring a number at Duke is anything but that. For many years Eddie Cameron would not agree to any retirement other than Dick Groat's number. In recent years the qualifications have become more nearly consistent, there's no automatic selection.

[DukieInKansas]

Retire Scheyer?

No, I think we should let him play the rest of the year. :)

My thoughts exactly!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Coach K recently mentioned the retirement requirements, I think on last week's TV show. NPOY or NDPOY are among the requirements, as is graduation (paging Elton Brand, paging Elton Brand). The show was a retrospective and had a segment on retired jerseys - he wasn't talking about any current players.

Once a player is in the Hall of Honor, and Banks, Alarie and Spanarkel are, supposedly you can't/won't have your jersey retired. I still wish Dunleavy had stayed for his senior year so there could have been a "double" #34 ceremony for him and Jimmy.

After last night's game, I'm starting to think Jon Scheyer may just get his NPOY. I sure hope so because it would mean great things for this Duke team!:cool::D

[91_92_01_10_15]

Nothing is automatic. Tommy Amaker, Billy King, and Wojo all won national defensive player of the year, and you won't ever see any of their jerseys in the rafters (well, Amaker's number is up there, but not because he wore it).

msdukie sounds like he knows what he's talking about here:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=117781&postcount=19

Incidentally, that thread was eventually shut down by Jumbo:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=117821&postcount=23

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

If you want to get a sense of the stature of players whose numbers are retired, take a few minutes to look at the pictures of the members of the Duke Hall of Fame.

[Devilsfan]

Absolutely!!!! (Even if he is "alarmingly unathletic").

[SilkyJ]

Absolutely!!!! (Even if he is "alarmingly unathletic").

you're alarming unathletic. I predict a scheyer breakaway dunk during the month of January, just like JJ did.

[uh_no]

From my understanding, graduation isn't the requirement, the requirement is that the player earned their degree....so for instance if G won NPOY last year, and then got his degree down the road, he could possibly retired

maybe i'm wrong, but that's how I've read K quoted

[hq2]

No chance. Scheyer's career has not been as good as Mark Alarie, Gene Banks, Jim Spanarkel, or Jack Marin, and they're not up there either. Forget it.

[AlaskanAssassin]

If it doesn't retire, I believe Seth is going to take it next season. What are your thoughts on that? I think it could be too soon.

[superdave]

Scheyer has never even been to the Final Four. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

If it doesn't retire, I believe Seth is going to take it next season. What are your thoughts on that? I think it could be too soon.
Too soon for what? He's still alive as far as I know. Your claim on your number, if you even have a claim, ends when you leave school.

[CameronBornAndBred]

After last night's game, I'm starting to think Jon Scheyer may just get his NPOY.
I hope so too, but he has a Wall blocking his way right now.

[InSpades]

I hope so too, but he has a Wall blocking his way right now.

Does he really? If the NPOY goes to the guy who has the most highlight reel dunks then Wall is in his way. If it goes to the guy who makes more "OMG" plays per game than anyone else, then Wall is in his way. Ditto on "most NBA potential", "most athletic" or probably a dozen other categories. If you give it to the guy who has played the best then Scheyer is standing in Wall's way.

This is to take nothing away from John Wall, he's ridiculously talented. However if I had a college basketball game to win tomorrow and could have Wall or Scheyer as my PG, I'd choose Scheyer and I don't think that's my bias speaking.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

FF or NPOY. Then Maybe.

[Dev11]

Coach K told us during a speech my freshman year that you need to graduate and you need some kind of national recognition - POY type award OR setting a national record (I believe this is how Bobby Hurley got his, with the national assists record, since he didn't get any POY awards). Those are "hard" requirements. We've certainly had more alumni win POY/DPOY awards, so there are soft considerations that must go into it. It's hard to tell right now how Scheyer stacks up on the soft stuff against guys like Amaker, and without any records, national awards, or major postseason success yet, I would be surprised if his jersey was retired.

And did somebody suggest that Seth is going to take Jon's number? Seth already wears #3 (stolen from GP!), though we only saw it in the Blue-White game. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the freshmen got Jon's number next year though, since a lot of guys who have left in recent years have had theirs reused immediately: Nelson to MP1, King to Williams to Dawkins (really hope that's not an omen), McBob to Smith, Marty to MP2.

[Taco]

Curry wore 30 at Liberty which I think is why it's assumed he'd take it next year.

[blazindw]

Curry wore 30 at Liberty which I think is why it's assumed he'd take it next year.

And his brother, Stephen Curry, wore 30 at Davidson as well.

[AtlDuke72]

No Gene Banks then No Jon Scheyer. He MUST lead us to a championship before I consider it. That is that.

I disagree. Banks was outstanding but Scheyer is better. Johnny Dawkins did not win a championship unless you count ACC Tournsments and no one could question retiring his jersey. If Scheyer's year continues the way it has started it should be an easy call.

[-jk]

I disagree. Banks was outstanding but Scheyer is better. Johnny Dawkins did not win a championship unless you count ACC Tournsments and no one could question retiring his jersey. If Scheyer's year continues the way it has started it should be an easy call.

I'm not sure Tink v. Scheyer is that cut-and-dried. Tink was more - um - athletic. Jon sees and anticipates the game better.

That said, JD set the Duke scoring record - breaking G-Man's jersey-retiring record. I don't see how Jon can do that - JJ put it pretty far out of reach.

Should he remain the primary team leader and take us to the FF, I'll consider it. Or even more than consider it.

-jk

[AlaskanAssassin]

And did somebody suggest that Seth is going to take Jon's number? Seth already wears #3 (stolen from GP!), though we only saw it in the Blue-White game. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the freshmen got Jon's number next year though, since a lot of guys who have left in recent years have had theirs reused immediately: Nelson to MP1, King to Williams to Dawkins (really hope that's not an omen), McBob to Smith, Marty to MP2.

FROM TWITTER:

@sdotcurry You wearing # 30 or # 3 next year? 10:03 PM Dec 10th, 2009 from web in reply to sdotcurry

@Dukefan23inNY 30!!! 10:14 PM Dec 10th, 2009 from Echofon in reply to Dukefan23inNY

[77devil]

I disagree. Banks was outstanding but Scheyer is better. Johnny Dawkins did not win a championship unless you count ACC Tournsments and no one could question retiring his jersey. If Scheyer's year continues the way it has started it should be an easy call.

Make your case between Banks and Scheyer, if you can, but the Dawkins-no championship reference is simply irrelevant to the discussion. JD is arguably the most important Duke player of the Coach K era. Without him, K may not have survived.

Jon's body of work needs a bit more than an AA season to make the case.

[devildownunder]

Does he really? If the NPOY goes to the guy who has the most highlight reel dunks then Wall is in his way. If it goes to the guy who makes more "OMG" plays per game than anyone else, then Wall is in his way. Ditto on "most NBA potential", "most athletic" or probably a dozen other categories. If you give it to the guy who has played the best then Scheyer is standing in Wall's way.

This is to take nothing away from John Wall, he's ridiculously talented. However if I had a college basketball game to win tomorrow and could have Wall or Scheyer as my PG, I'd choose Scheyer and I don't think that's my bias speaking.

Sort of depends on who your opponent is and what you need. Wall isn't just highlight reel dunks, any more than Scheyer is a no-talent klutz whose just so brilliant about basketball that he overcomes his two left feet. Don't get caught up in that false dichotomy that rears its ugly head so often when people discuss players.

Wall averages 17.2 ppg (Scheyer is 19.7) and 7.3 apg (6.1) while shooting 51.9% FG (46.2), 78.6% FT (91.5) and 39.4% on threes (43.2). HIS A/TO ratio is 1.79/1 (4.78/1!) and he always has the ball in his hand for the undefeated Wildcats. I think there is a bit more to him than just being "ridiculously talented".

Scheyer's numbers are great and his level of play has gone way up this year. He has truly become one of the best in the country. This perhaps best shows up statistically in his eye-popping 4.78/1 A/TO ratio -- that's phenomenal. Right now I think he and Wall make up the 1st-team AA backcourt. He is also more experienced than Wall and that always counts for something. But if you just dismiss the notion of Wall possibly being a better choice for any team in any situation, I think you are letting bias get in the way of good judgement.

[shoutingncu]

FROM TWITTER:

@sdotcurry You wearing # 30 or # 3 next year? 10:03 PM Dec 10th, 2009 from web in reply to sdotcurry

@Dukefan23inNY 30!!! 10:14 PM Dec 10th, 2009 from Echofon in reply to Dukefan23inNY

Someone needs to translate this...

;)

[shoutingncu]

Wall averages 17.2 ppg (Scheyer is 19.7) and 7.3 apg (6.1) while shooting 51.9% FG (46.2), 78.6% FT (91.5) and 39.4% on threes (43.2). HIS A/TO ratio is 1.79/1 (4.78/1!) and he always has the ball in his hand for the undefeated Wildcats.


Am I the only one that really wants to see a head-to-head match-up of these two? I'd hate it to be in the finals, much like you all would've had a hard time if UConn had made it last year, but it'd be one for the ages.

[uh_no]

Someone needs to translate this...

;)

he asked seth if he was wearing 3 or 30 next year. seth said 30.

[Richard Berg]

My meaningless historical comparison: Chris Duhon. Blockbuster senior year, great shooter, savvy ballhandler with terrific assist numbers, destined to be a regular face in the NBA but not an All-Star. Result: Hall Of Honor.

[CDu]

My meaningless historical comparison: Chris Duhon. Blockbuster senior year, great shooter, savvy ballhandler with terrific assist numbers, destined to be a regular face in the NBA but not an All-Star. Result: Hall Of Honor.

I'll be honest - I don't see this comparison at all. Scheyer will end up with about 800 more points than Duhon (who reached 10.0 ppg only once). Also, Duhon didn't actually turn out to be the great shooter as you suggest. He ended his career as a 32% 3pt shooter, and was only a 69% free throw shooter. Scheyer by comparison has never shot below 36.5% from 3 and 83.6% from the line. Duhon has a huge edge in assists, though (probably will remain 400 ahead of Scheyer there).

And even the great senior year comparison isn't even. Scheyer is playing on NPOY level, whereas Duhon was simply a very good senior leader. Scheyer is outperforming Duhon across the board.

[RoyalBlue08]

I agree with what I think is the majority opinion here, which is that he needs a NPOY to get his jersey retired. I do think there is an outside chance he could do that. (If voting was today, I think he might be 50/50 to win it....there isn't anyone putting up huge numbers out there....his numbers are clearly superior to Wall's.) At this point, we reallly need to be stringent with retiring jerseys, if for no other reason than running out of numbers!

[uh_no]

At this point, we reallly need to be stringent with retiring jerseys, if for no other reason than running out of numbers!

Goodness

There are only 37 numbers available....lol....this could be of serious concern in the future

[ajgoodfella7]

I would think Scheyer would have to win:

1. ACC player of the year, which is a good possibility and

2. Win either NPOY or lead Duke to at least a final four appearance and probably even a National Title.

... I don't think his 3 previous years have been successful enough tourney-wise to warrant his jersey being retired without these 2 things happening. But he has obviously been a great player for us the past 4 years.

[ajgoodfella7]

I agree with what I think is the majority opinion here, which is that he needs a NPOY to get his jersey retired. I do think there is an outside chance he could do that. (If voting was today, I think he might be 50/50 to win it....there isn't anyone putting up huge numbers out there....his numbers are clearly superior to Wall's.) At this point, we reallly need to be stringent with retiring jerseys, if for no other reason than running out of numbers!

I would agree that he is in the running, but I would be surprised if Wall was not the clear cut favorite right now in the national media.

[CDu]

I agree with what I think is the majority opinion here, which is that he needs a NPOY to get his jersey retired. I do think there is an outside chance he could do that. (If voting was today, I think he might be 50/50 to win it....there isn't anyone putting up huge numbers out there....his numbers are clearly superior to Wall's.) At this point, we reallly need to be stringent with retiring jerseys, if for no other reason than running out of numbers!

Yeah, I think people are too quick to toss out discussion of jersey retirement. The guys with their jerseys retired all had some phenomenal accomplishments. They had some combination of a Final Four appearance (or a championship), a NPOY/NDPOY, 1st Team All-American, and/or graduating as the school's all-time record holder in at least one of the major categories.

As of right now, Scheyer falls short on all counts. He's had a very nice and solid individual career so far but far from jersey retirement to this point. I mean, coming into the season he'd never averaged 15ppg, never made even an All-ACC team. His teams have only even made the Sweet-16 once (and never beyond that point), and only won one ACC title (and no regular season titles). That's not meant to disparage his career, which has been very good. It's just that it should take A LOT to get the jersey retired and he hasn't reached that yet.

I think it'll take a Final Four appearance and a NPOY to get his jersey retired. He needs that level of team success and that level of individual accomplishment to be in consideration, because up until this year he's been essentially a complementary player on teams that have had less national success than those guys in the rafters.

Given that he was more a complementary player for his first three years and never a star, it might even take both a championship AND an NPOY to get it done. Of course, if he keeps playing at this level, maybe we'll see both happen.

[phaedrus]

I agree that Scheyer needs an NPOY type of season, but something about relying on the voters who select the Wooden winner to also select which jerseys get retired at Duke doesn't seem like K's style. If Scheyer maintains his level of play, ultimately gets passed over in the NPOY race for a flashier player, but leads us to a championship, he should get serious consideration for jersey retirement.

[CDu]

... I don't think his 3 previous years have been successful enough tourney-wise to warrant his jersey being retired without these 2 things happening.

I think this is the key. On top of that, Scheyer didn't really play a leading role in any of those previous years. It's really hard to justify retirement of the jersey for a guy who was the third or fourth most prominent player for three years of his career on a team that just didn't have much national success (or even much ACC success relative to the last 30 years for Duke).

As such, it's going to take a monster year (both individually and team-wise) for Scheyer to get the jersey retired. I think it'll take even more than just a Final Four and 1st Team All-American. I think it's going to take a POY award and at least a Final Four. Of course, he's certainly on the right track at the moment.

[Duvall]

You know, it's interesting. If (and that's a giant if) Scheyer continues on his current pace, he really won't fit the profile for the Hall of Honor or a retired jersey. We really haven't had a player spend three years as a purely complementary player and then contend for NPOY honors in his senior season.

[CDu]

You know, it's interesting. If (and that's a giant if) Scheyer continues on his current pace, he really won't fit the profile for the Hall of Honor or a retired jersey. We really haven't had a player spend three years as a purely complementary player and then contend for NPOY honors in his senior season.

Yeah, we've had a few guys be complementary players their first two years and end up getting their jerseys retired. But all of those retired had reached some level of national honor (and/or tournament success) and had major ACC honors by their junior years. For Scheyer, he's always been in the shadows:

Freshman year: 3rd/4th guy (behind McRoberts and Nelson, on par with Paulus)
Sophomore year: 3rd/4th/5th guy (behind Nelson and Singler, on par with Paulus and Henderson)
Junior year: 3rd guy (behind Henderson and Singler)

This year, he's become the main guy. But he's got a lot of ground to make up.

[phaedrus]

I don't think it's fair to characterize Scheyer as the third or fourth best player or a "purely complementary player" for his first three years. Certainly if you look at the numbers and All-ACC honors, there's a strong argument that Nelson, McRoberts, Singler, and Henderson have all been more "prominent" players. But then, Scheyer's contributions have never been summed up by numbers and honors, have they?

We've had well-balanced teams (at least at the top) for all of Jon's seasons. No Redicks or Williamses or Battiers. No player that Scheyer played with was ever our "lead player" like those guys were. Instead, for Scheyer's career, we've had 3-4 players every year who were absolutely essential to our team success (this year, too). Jon has always been one of those players; on many nights, even in his freshman year, he was the most important player, and on many nights it was someone else. But if Jon was merely a complementary player, then so Singler and Nelson et al. have been.

[CDu]

I don't think it's fair to characterize Scheyer as the third or fourth best player or a "purely complementary player" for his first three years. Certainly if you look at the numbers and All-ACC honors, there's a strong argument that Nelson, McRoberts, Singler, and Henderson have all been more "prominent" players. But then, Scheyer's contributions have never been summed up by numbers and honors, have they?

We've had well-balanced teams (at least at the top) for all of Jon's seasons. No Redicks or Williamses or Battiers. No player that Scheyer played with was ever our "lead player" like those guys were. Instead, for Scheyer's career, we've had 3-4 players every year who were absolutely essential to our team success (this year, too). Jon has always been one of those players; on many nights, even in his freshman year, he was the most important player, and on many nights it was someone else. But if Jon was merely a complementary player, then so Singler and Nelson et al. have been.

When talking about honors as great as jersey retirement, I think it's absolutely fair to talk about Scheyer as being the third/fourth most prominent player. That's not to say he wasn't a key contributor to the team each year. But in each of those years, a couple of other players had slightly more prominent roles. So in terms of statistical performance and critical acclaim, Scheyer was very much the 3rd/4th player on each of those teams.

Ultimately, numbers and honors (and just as importantly team success) are what get you a jersey retirement. So while Scheyer brings a lot of "intangibles" to the table, those intangibles haven't to this point resulted in national honors (or even ACC season honors) or national team success. And those are the things that matter with regard to jersey retirement.

[jv001]

On another Duke website(BDN) I had an interesting discussion regarding Duke's all decade team. I suggested that Jon deserved the honor over Chris Duhon. Most thought Chris deserved it because he was on two FF teams with one Championship. My response was to show that Jon had better overall numbers than Chris. The exception being career assists. Chris had other all decade players on his teams. Shelden, JJ, Luol, Dahntay, Boozer, Dunleavy & Jay Williams. Jon had none. I love both guys and would really have a hard time picking one over another. Go Duke!

[CDu]

On another Duke website(BDN) I had an interesting discussion regarding Duke's all decade team. I suggested that Jon deserved the honor over Chris Duhon. Most thought Chris deserved it because he was on two FF teams with one Championship. My response was to show that Jon had better overall numbers than Chris. The exception being career assists. Chris had other all decade players on his teams. Shelden, JJ, Luol, Dahntay, Boozer, Dunleavy & Jay Williams. Jon had none. I love both guys and would really have a hard time picking one over another. Go Duke!

Were you choosing reserves at that point? J.Williams, Redick, Battier, and S.Williams are obvious selections. The fifth spot is interesting. It's amazing how many great players Duhon played with at Duke (FOUR jersey retirees and three/four more big-time NBAers!). That certainly floated his assist totals somewhat, though he was a terrific passer as well.

Out of curiousity, how did Deng and Jones rate as all-decade but not Henderson, Singler, Nelson, or McRoberts? I'd argue that those guys were just as prominent in combination of impact and longevity as Jones and Deng.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Out of curiousity, how did Deng and Jones rate as all-decade but not Henderson, Singler, Nelson, or McRoberts? I'd argue that those guys were just as prominent in combination of impact and longevity as Jones and Deng.

Post season wins means a lot.

[Duvall]

Post season wins means a lot.

Jones won exactly one more postseason game than Singler and Henderson, and he got to play with Jason Williams, Carlos Boozer and Mike Dunleavy for half of them.

[CDu]

The more I think about it, the more I think Spanarkel is the most relevant comparison for Scheyer, both in terms of style and in terms of consideration for jersey retirement.

Spanarkel was a consistently solid player, and had great numbers in three of his four years. He wound up with just over 2,000 points, 399 assists, and 450 rebounds. Spanarkel's teams made one Final Four, and he bagged one First Team All-American honor (which Scheyer may achieve this year). Spanarkel will have at least one more First Team All-ACC honor and one more Second-Team honor.

Unless Scheyer gets a NPOY and a championship, Spanarkel will have had the more distinguished career. Yet Spanarkel did not get his jersey retired. It just shows how high the bar is for jersey retirement.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Jones won exactly one more postseason game than Singler and Henderson, and he got to play with Jason Williams, Carlos Boozer and Mike Dunleavy for half of them.

Scottie Pippen is considered as one of the Nba's 50 greatest players. Now is he really? No, but he did play with the greatest ever in Micheal Jordan.


Point being, Jones played with better talent and had more success IMO.

[CDu]

Scottie Pippen is considered as one of the Nba's 50 greatest players. Now is he really? No, but he did play with the greatest ever in Micheal Jordan.


Point being, Jones played with better talent and had more success IMO.

Not quite the same thing. Pippen was 1st Team All-NBA three times (including the two seasons in his prime without Jordan), 2nd Team All-NBA two times, third-team All-NBA two times, 1st team all-defense 7 times, and a 7-time All Star. He was the second-best player on six championship teams. He was, in fact, arguably one of the 50 best of all time. When you get to the end of that 50-greatest list, I'd bet his credentials stack up fairly well.

Jones had only (very) marginally more postseason success than Singler and Henderson despite playing fourth fiddle to better players in many of those wins. Singler had better individual honors and Henderson had comparable honors. That's not really comparable to the multitude of success that Pippen had, both individually and team.

Robert Horry played with better talent than most and had more success than most. Would you put him on an All-Decade team? I wouldn't.

[mapei]

I don't see Jones and Deng as deserving at all of all-decade. Luol was here for ONE YEAR. He barely qualifies as a Dukie in my book. A good player with tons of potential, sure - but nowhere near a body of work to bump him ahead of several others. I'd say much the same about Maggette the previous decade. As for Dahntay, he was entertaining for sure. But only a 2-year player, and the 4th or 5th option on the team. Henderson, Singler, & McRoberts were/are all better IMO.

Chris D? Absolutely. 4-year player, leader, key contributor to NC team & second FF team, incredible heart, outstanding D, great passer.

Back on topic, I think you can make a good case for Jon to have his number retired. But it isn't stronger, all considered, than the case for Chris IMO, to say nothing of the old-timers (though, IIRC, Tinker never graduated). And it may be a moot point anyway if you need NPOY honors, which is what the Duke U president said in presenting to JJ & Shel. (Hurley doesn't qualify under that criterion, but he was and is the all-time collegiate assist leader, and (I think) a FF MVP. Pretty close.)

[Kedsy]

(though, IIRC, Tinker never graduated)

Gene Banks was a year ahead of me at Duke and I'm almost certain he graduated. A quick google search also suggests that he did. Why do you think he didn't?

[DevilHorns]

Luol was here for ONE YEAR. He barely qualifies as a Dukie in my book.

Thats a terrible thing to say. I hope you take it back.

Obviously we would love all of our players to develop and grow in front of us for 4 years, but for those that end up leaving early, we as fans and past alumni should not fault them for it.

[ajgoodfella7]

On another Duke website(BDN) I had an interesting discussion regarding Duke's all decade team. I suggested that Jon deserved the honor over Chris Duhon. Most thought Chris deserved it because he was on two FF teams with one Championship. My response was to show that Jon had better overall numbers than Chris. The exception being career assists. Chris had other all decade players on his teams. Shelden, JJ, Luol, Dahntay, Boozer, Dunleavy & Jay Williams. Jon had none. I love both guys and would really have a hard time picking one over another. Go Duke!

I would have to say that Battier's 2001 season alone would land him on Duke's all decade team. I would say JWill, Redick, Battier, Boozer, Williams as my starting 5 all decade team. Other guys I would rank ahead of Scheyer would include Dunleavy and Duhon. I think Scheyer would fall in right after them.

[InSpades]

When talking about honors as great as jersey retirement, I think it's absolutely fair to talk about Scheyer as being the third/fourth most prominent player. That's not to say he wasn't a key contributor to the team each year. But in each of those years, a couple of other players had slightly more prominent roles. So in terms of statistical performance and critical acclaim, Scheyer was very much the 3rd/4th player on each of those teams.

Ultimately, numbers and honors (and just as importantly team success) are what get you a jersey retirement. So while Scheyer brings a lot of "intangibles" to the table, those intangibles haven't to this point resulted in national honors (or even ACC season honors) or national team success. And those are the things that matter with regard to jersey retirement.

An interesting comparison as far as "prominent" players go is Battier. Battier wasn't among the top 5 scorers his 1st 2 years at Duke. He led the team in scoring his junior year and was 2nd for his senior year. They actually kind of remind me of one another in a lot of ways. They both came in as freshman and played incredibly intelligent basketball. It may have taken Scheyer a little longer, but he's turned on his offense in much the same way. Obviously Battier was all-world defensively and Scheyer doesn't quite compare in that respect. I definitely think he needs to be an All-American and bring home a NCAA title but stranger things have happened.

[gep]

I was wondering... does the "Senior Class Award" count? :rolleyes: Jon should definitely be in the running for that...

[CDu]

An interesting comparison as far as "prominent" players go is Battier. Battier wasn't among the top 5 scorers his 1st 2 years at Duke. He led the team in scoring his junior year and was 2nd for his senior year. They actually kind of remind me of one another in a lot of ways. They both came in as freshman and played incredibly intelligent basketball. It may have taken Scheyer a little longer, but he's turned on his offense in much the same way. Obviously Battier was all-world defensively and Scheyer doesn't quite compare in that respect. I definitely think he needs to be an All-American and bring home a NCAA title but stranger things have happened.

But Battier was still much more decorated though. Two-time 1st Team All-ACC, 1st Team All-American, three time NDPOY, NPOY, an elite-8, a Final game, and a championship.

Simply getting a 1st Team All-America and winning a title won't get Scheyer to Battier's career stature.

[InSpades]

But Battier was still much more decorated though. Two-time 1st Team All-ACC, 1st Team All-American, three time NDPOY, NPOY, an elite-8, a Final game, and a championship.

Simply getting a 1st Team All-America and winning a title won't get Scheyer to Battier's career stature.

I never said he was as decorated (that much is pretty obvious, no?). Just that you are saying Jon wasn't "prominent" enough when Shane wasn't even as prominent as Jon was in his 1st 2 years. In fact I'd say Jon was significantly more prominent (even his sophomore year when he didn't start).

As for championships... Jon was never surrounded by championship-level talent. Hopefully this year is the exception!

[CDu]

I never said he was as decorated (that much is pretty obvious, no?). Just that you are saying Jon wasn't "prominent" enough when Shane wasn't even as prominent as Jon was in his 1st 2 years. In fact I'd say Jon was significantly more prominent (even his sophomore year when he didn't start).

As for championships... Jon was never surrounded by championship-level talent. Hopefully this year is the exception!

My point was that Battier WAS more prominent in his first three years than Scheyer has been. Battier as a sophomore was third-team All-ACC and the NDPOY. Battier as a junior was 1st Team All-ACC, 2nd Team All-America, and NDPOY. So while Battier definitely played a less prominent role in his first year (due to playing on a much more talented team), he was arguably just as prominent in his sophomore year (again, on a MUCH more talented team) and definitely more prominent by his junior year.

I'll agree that Battier was less prominent as a freshman then Scheyer. But that's because Battier was on an unbelievably deep, talented, and experienced team unlike Scheyer. After that, I'd say it's really hard to argue that Battier was less prominent than Scheyer as a sophomore when considering that Battier was earning NDPOY awards and a third-team All-ACC as a sophomore unlike Scheyer. And it's impossible to argue that they were similarly prominent as juniors when Battier was a 2nd-team All-America and 1st-Team All-ACC as a junior unlike Scheyer.

Look - Scheyer has had a very good career and is having an amazing year so far as a senior. But to compare his career to Battier's is a disservice to Scheyer. We can certainly compare Scheyer's senior year to Battier's senior year. And if Scheyer matches Battier in winning NPOY and a national championship, then he very well may get his jersey retired like Battier in spite of the differences. But through their junior years, it's not really very close in terms of prominence.

If anything, I think Redick and Spanarkel are the better career comps. Scheyer will likely fall somewhere between those two, unless we win a national championship this year.

[BlueintheFace]

I disagree. Banks was outstanding but Scheyer is better. Johnny Dawkins did not win a championship unless you count ACC Tournsments and no one could question retiring his jersey. If Scheyer's year continues the way it has started it should be an easy call.

Johnny Dawkins is in another level and completely incomparable. He was NPOY, a two time All-American, took Duke to the Championship game, and was the most important player in the history of Duke Basketball (if you ask K at least). Scheyer may deserve, but will not win, the NPOY award when it is all said and done. So he needs that championship. However in the absence of that award and a championship, he shouldn't get it. If you look at those rafters, every player under K was a leader on a championship team or a national player of the year, defensive or overall.

The point is, there will be more or equally deserving candidates if Scheyer wins it without a NPOY or Championship.

[JDev]

As many on this thread have illustrated, it is tough to make a good comparison between Jon and any former Dukie. Each comparison brought up illustrates some clear silimarities, but also obvious differences. Another reasonable comparison, as far as career trajectory, might be with Chris Carrawell. He spent his first three years as a large part of the team, but ultimately a complimentary player, less heralded than teammates like McCleod, Langdon, Brand, and Battier. Even so, in those three years he was a double figure scorer twice and earned 3rd Team All-ACC as a junior. Then, as a senior, he had a much more prominent role and elevated his game to even greater heights. He ended 2000 as a 1st Team All-ACC selection, ACC Player of the Year, and 1st Team All-American. Scheyer seems to have the same M.O. - good career, capped by a great senior year that brings a number of individual accolades.
I know that just as with the other comparisons there are obvious differences, the main one being team success and the presence of other 1st Team All-Americans and National Player of the Years in the line-up.

[CDu]

As many on this thread have illustrated, it is tough to make a good comparison between Jon and any former Dukie. Each comparison brought up illustrates some clear silimarities, but also obvious differences. Another reasonable comparison, as far as career trajectory, might be with Chris Carrawell. He spent his first three years as a large part of the team, but ultimately a complimentary player, less heralded than teammates like McCleod, Langdon, Brand, and Battier. Even so, in those three years he was a double figure scorer twice and earned 3rd Team All-ACC as a junior. Then, as a senior, he had a much more prominent role and elevated his game to even greater heights. He ended 2000 as a 1st Team All-ACC selection, ACC Player of the Year, and 1st Team All-American. Scheyer seems to have the same M.O. - good career, capped by a great senior year that brings a number of individual accolades.
I know that just as with the other comparisons there are obvious differences, the main one being team success and the presence of other 1st Team All-Americans and National Player of the Years in the line-up.

I'd put Carrawell on the low end of the comparison scale to Scheyer. Carrawell had better team success, but was much less heralded individually in his first three years (despite actually netting an All-ACC honor as a junior). I think Scheyer was ahead of Carrawell on aggregate through three years. and he'll likely match or exceed Carrawell's senior year (will exceed with an NPOY and/or a championship).

The complicating fact is that Scheyer's case will largely be based on three solid but not highly-acclaimed seasons (with relatively low team success) and one great season. The others with jerseys retired set major school records (scoring, rebounding, assists, blocks, and/or steals), and/or were honored both ACC and nationally in multiple years, and all but Groat were on Final Four or championship teams. Scheyer can only achieve one of those accomplishments. As such, I think the bar for retirement will be set really high for the results of Scheyer's senior season.

[Wander]

On the positive side, we can look at it like this: it's hard to imagine that we'd have a team that won a national championship without any retired jersey players on it, considering that there were 2-3 on each of our previous ones. That makes me feel pretty good about saying this: if we somehow win the NC, he'll get his number retired, even without a NPOY award.

Actually, now that I think about it: has Duke ever had a Final Four team without a jersey retired player on it? Maybe one of the older ones?

[JDev]

On the positive side, we can look at it like this: it's hard to imagine that we'd have a team that won a national championship without any retired jersey players on it, considering that there were 2-3 on each of our previous ones. That makes me feel pretty good about saying this: if we somehow win the NC, he'll get his number retired, even without a NPOY award.

Actually, now that I think about it: has Duke ever had a Final Four team without a jersey retired player on it? Maybe one of the older ones?

Every Final Four team of the Coach K era had at least one jersey retiree. The run from 86-92 featured one or more of Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, and Hill. 1994 had Hill. 1999 had Battier. 2001 had Battier and J. Williams. 2004 had Redick and S. Williams.

I could be forgetting someone, but that still puts a jersey retiree on every FF squad.

[InSpades]

My point was that Battier WAS more prominent in his first three years than Scheyer has been. Battier as a sophomore was third-team All-ACC and the NDPOY. Battier as a junior was 1st Team All-ACC, 2nd Team All-America, and NDPOY. So while Battier definitely played a less prominent role in his first year (due to playing on a much more talented team), he was arguably just as prominent in his sophomore year (again, on a MUCH more talented team) and definitely more prominent by his junior year.

I'll agree that Battier was less prominent as a freshman then Scheyer. But that's because Battier was on an unbelievably deep, talented, and experienced team unlike Scheyer. After that, I'd say it's really hard to argue that Battier was less prominent than Scheyer as a sophomore when considering that Battier was earning NDPOY awards and a third-team All-ACC as a sophomore unlike Scheyer. And it's impossible to argue that they were similarly prominent as juniors when Battier was a 2nd-team All-America and 1st-Team All-ACC as a junior unlike Scheyer.

Look - Scheyer has had a very good career and is having an amazing year so far as a senior. But to compare his career to Battier's is a disservice to Scheyer. We can certainly compare Scheyer's senior year to Battier's senior year. And if Scheyer matches Battier in winning NPOY and a national championship, then he very well may get his jersey retired like Battier in spite of the differences. But through their junior years, it's not really very close in terms of prominence.

If anything, I think Redick and Spanarkel are the better career comps. Scheyer will likely fall somewhere between those two, unless we win a national championship this year.

Either prominence matters or it doesn't matter. You keep saying that Battier was less prominent because his teams were so good... then does prominence not matter? Battier played the 5th most minutes of anyone on the team his sophomore year (by a good margin trailing 4th most) and scored the 6th most points. Scheyer played 9 minutes less than Singler his sophomore year and Singler played the 2nd most minutes. He was also 3rd in scoring. How can you really say Scheyer didn't play a more prominent role his sophomore year than Battier?

[JDev]

I'd put Carrawell on the low end of the comparison scale to Scheyer. Carrawell had better team success, but was much less heralded individually in his first three years (despite actually netting an All-ACC honor as a junior). I think Scheyer was ahead of Carrawell on aggregate through three years. and he'll likely match or exceed Carrawell's senior year (will exceed with an NPOY and/or a championship).

The complicating fact is that Scheyer's case will largely be based on three solid but not highly-acclaimed seasons (with relatively low team success) and one great season. The others with jerseys retired set major school records (scoring, rebounding, assists, blocks, and/or steals), and/or were honored both ACC and nationally in multiple years, and all but Groat were on Final Four or championship teams. Scheyer can only achieve one of those accomplishments. As such, I think the bar for retirement will be set really high for the results of Scheyer's senior season.

As I said, any and every comparison has its validity, and also has its flaws.

[CDu]

Either prominence matters or it doesn't matter. You keep saying that Battier was less prominent because his teams were so good... then does prominence not matter? Battier played the 5th most minutes of anyone on the team his sophomore year (by a good margin trailing 4th most) and scored the 6th most points. Scheyer played 9 minutes less than Singler his sophomore year and Singler played the 2nd most minutes. He was also 3rd in scoring. How can you really say Scheyer didn't play a more prominent role his sophomore year than Battier?

I said Battier was less prominent as a freshman, but more prominent (at the ACC and national level) as a sophomore and junior. To illustrate that argument (again), here are their sophomore year accomplishments:

Battier: NDPOY, 3rd-Team All-ACC, championship game appearance
Scheyer: none of the above

Perhaps you are getting hung up on the performance relative to the rest of the team, and not seeing the forest because of all the trees? It seems like you're nitpicking a particular point and missing the bigger picture. Yes, Scheyer played more minutes and scored more points relative to his teammates as a sophomore than did Battier. But Battier played major enough minutes on a much better team to earn a national award and an ACC honor. The rest of the world seemed to recognize that Battier was more prominent as a sophomore than Scheyer, right?

And this is ignoring the fact that Battier was MUCH more prominent as a junior than Scheyer - winning NDPOY, 2nd-Team All-America, and 1st-Team All-ACC.

See my other post on this. Battier won multiple national and ACC honors (including a NPOY and three NDPOY) and his teams had great national success in multiple years. That is why he has his jersey retired. Scheyer's case is going to be weaker than Battier's even if he wins player of the year and a national championship. It may still be strong enough to get the jersey retired, though, if he gets to a Final Four and wins a NPOY.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Every Final Four team of the Coach K era had at least one jersey retiree. The run from 86-92 featured one or more of Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, and Hill. 1994 had Hill. 1999 had Battier. 2001 had Battier and J. Williams. 2004 had Redick and S. Williams.

I could be forgetting someone, but that still puts a jersey retiree on every FF squad.

True but that doesn't have to be Jon, that retiree can very well be Kyle or even Nolan if he continues to grow over this year and next. A long shot but i think it is possible.

[CDu]

On the positive side, we can look at it like this: it's hard to imagine that we'd have a team that won a national championship without any retired jersey players on it, considering that there were 2-3 on each of our previous ones. That makes me feel pretty good about saying this: if we somehow win the NC, he'll get his number retired, even without a NPOY award.

Actually, now that I think about it: has Duke ever had a Final Four team without a jersey retired player on it? Maybe one of the older ones?

Every Final Four team has had a retired jersey along with it with the exception of the 1966 team (led by Marin and Verga). And only Groat has made the rafters without playing in a Final Four. Every Final Four team since 1978 has a jersey retired. Of course, those jersey retirements also correspond with an All-American honor and NDPOY/NPOY and/or multiple major school records. So I don't think merely getting to the Final Four will result in one of our players getting the jersey retired. I think it'll take a major national honor as well.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

I think unless he wins NPOY he isn't going to get his jersey retired. Even with a Championship you would have to give props to our other players because that is a great TEAM award. But with a NPOY i think it should be undisputable that his jersey should be retired.

[CDu]

I think unless he wins NPOY he isn't going to get his jersey retired. Even with a Championship you would have to give props to our other players because that is a great TEAM award. But with a NPOY i think it should be undisputable that his jersey should be retired.

I agree that it'll take a NPOY honor. Whether or not it also requires a Final Four or a championship is really the only question I have. Groat is the only point of comparison for a NPOY without a Final Four, but he graduated with the scoring record at the time.

If Scheyer wins NPOY and we win the title this year, I think he's a shoe-in. If Scheyer doesn't get NPOY, I don't think he gets the honor. Somewhere in between is the murkiness in my opinion.

[Johnboy]

(though, IIRC, Tinker never graduated).

Geez (http://tinyurl.com/yalkr7g). Tink was a commencement speaker at his graduation. he is one of the great success stories of the program in every way. What an awful thing to say, even "IIRC".

[The Gordog]

Goodness

There are only 37 numbers available....lol....this could be of serious concern in the future

Actually there are only, let me see:

1,2,3,JJ,5
Groat,Hurley,12,13,14,15
20,21,JWill,Shel,Johnny,Heyman
30,31,Leattner,Grant,34,Ferry
40,41,42,GMan,Mullins,45
50,51,52,53,54,55

That leaves 23 numbers, unless I am missing someone.

[mkirsh]

Actually there are only, let me see:

1,2,3,JJ,5
Groat,Hurley,12,13,14,15
20,21,JWill,Shel,Johnny,Heyman
30,31,Leattner,Grant,34,Ferry
40,41,42,GMan,Mullins,45
50,51,52,53,54,55

That leaves 23 numbers, unless I am missing someone.

22 left - Battier's #31 is retired

21 left if you are Jason Evans and think that Shav's #42 is going up there as well.

Even if Jon gets to a final four, if he doesn't win NPOY or a title, his career would be pretty similar to Trajan Langdon and probably come up just short of retirement.

[Kedsy]

22 left - Battier's #31 is retired

21 left if you are Jason Evans and think that Shav's #42 is going up there as well.


Well, there could be 0 (zero) too, unless K has a thing against it. Plus some day the basketball powers will allow numbers ending in 6 through 9.

[Duvall]

Well, there could be 0 (zero) too, unless K has a thing against it. Plus some day the basketball powers will allow numbers ending in 6 through 9.

And 00 (double zero). But both have been disfavored at Duke.

[Clipsfan]

On the positive side, we can look at it like this: it's hard to imagine that we'd have a team that won a national championship without any retired jersey players on it, considering that there were 2-3 on each of our previous ones. That makes me feel pretty good about saying this: if we somehow win the NC, he'll get his number retired, even without a NPOY award.

Actually, now that I think about it: has Duke ever had a Final Four team without a jersey retired player on it? Maybe one of the older ones?

I think that there is a good chance that the player who would end up getting their jersey retired from this team would be Singler, especially if he performs at the level which people expect over the rest of this year and next year.

[JEA]

Actually there are only, let me see:

1,2,3,JJ,5
Groat,Hurley,12,13,14,15
20,21,JWill,Shel,Johnny,Heyman
30,31,Leattner,Grant,34,Ferry
40,41,42,GMan,Mullins,45
50,51,52,53,54,55

That leaves 23 numbers, unless I am missing someone.

This has the makings of a pretty cool t-shirt, in the hands of someone with more design skills than I have.

[Richard Berg]

I'll be honest - I don't see this comparison at all. Scheyer will end up with about 800 more points than Duhon (who reached 10.0 ppg only once). Also, Duhon didn't actually turn out to be the great shooter as you suggest. He ended his career as a 32% 3pt shooter, and was only a 69% free throw shooter. Scheyer by comparison has never shot below 36.5% from 3 and 83.6% from the line. Duhon has a huge edge in assists, though (probably will remain 400 ahead of Scheyer there).

And even the great senior year comparison isn't even. Scheyer is playing on NPOY level, whereas Duhon was simply a very good senior leader. Scheyer is outperforming Duhon across the board.
Ok, can't argue with that. Duhon's senior season was mine too...plus I've gotten to watch his continued improvement up here with the Knicks...guess those experiences made my memory of 2004 overly rosy.

[Lord Ash]

Chris Duhon was a great, great player, but Jon Scheyer's Duke career so far can match that of any player who does NOT have their jersey retired, IMHO.

However, to retire his jersey would take some additional supreme effort; for example, a NPOY award of some sort, or a title, or some incredible Duke record, or something similar.

Jon Scheyer's nose for the basketball is as good as any player I have ever seen at Duke... indeed, his pure ability to be in the right place at the right time is almost unparalleled.

Oh, and I love Jon... LOVE him, he will be one of my all time personal favorites... but not in the same breath as Shane, please... Talk about Shane, take another deep breath, and then start talking about Jon:)

[CDu]

Chris Duhon was a great, great player, but Jon Scheyer's Duke career so far can match that of any player who does NOT have their jersey retired, IMHO.

However, to retire his jersey would take some additional supreme effort; for example, a NPOY award of some sort, or a title, or some incredible Duke record, or something similar.

Jon Scheyer's nose for the basketball is as good as any player I have ever seen at Duke... indeed, his pure ability to be in the right place at the right time is almost unparalleled.

Oh, and I love Jon... LOVE him, he will be one of my all time personal favorites... but not in the same breath as Shane, please... Talk about Shane, take another deep breath, and then start talking about Jon:)

Well said. I have felt very uncomfortable in this thread, because I feel like it appears that I'm disparaging Scheyer (which is the furthest from my intentions). It's just that I think some people are underestimating just how great an honor it is to have your jersey retired at Duke. Scheyer has had a great career, but it's going to take a LOT more the rest of this year to get his jersey retired.

[uh_no]

Actually there are only, let me see:

1,2,3,JJ,5
Groat,Hurley,12,13,14,15
20,21,JWill,Shel,Johnny,Heyman
30,31,Leattner,Grant,34,Ferry
40,41,42,GMan,Mullins,45
50,51,52,53,54,55

That leaves 23 numbers, unless I am missing someone.

00 and 0 are also eligible numbers, so long as both aren't on the team at the same time

[Indoor66]

00 and 0 are also eligible numbers, so long as both aren't on the team at the same time


Maybe 0 will be less desirable after the escapades of Agent 0!

[gumbomoop]

Jon Scheyer's nose for the basketball is as good as any player I have ever seen at Duke... indeed, his pure ability to be in the right place at the right time is almost unparalleled.

Oh, and I love Jon... LOVE him, he will be one of my all time personal favorites... but not in the same breath as Shane, please... Talk about Shane, take another deep breath, and then start talking about Jon:)

Just waiting for the Tech game, so I got nothing to do but.... quibble, a little.

When a few posters [including me] began just very tentatively mentioning that JS had some Shane-like characteristics, we took your advice and took a couple of breaths first. We broached this comparison very cautiously and gingerly. But precisely because so many of us agree with your first paragraph above ["nose...any player...ever...pure ability...right place, right time...almost unparalleled"], we - well, I at least - will push to talk about JS in the same paragraph as SB. Same breath? You're right: not yet.

But would you agree that on O, JS is better than SB at getting his own shot, and gets into lane pretty consistently? Or that he consistently beats his defender to the shot-spot with clock running down?

[GLTBD]

Well, there could be 0 (zero) too, unless K has a thing against it. Plus some day the basketball powers will allow numbers ending in 6 through 9.

Why is this?

[Kedsy]

Why is this?

You mean why don't they allow numbers including 6 through 9? I'm pretty sure it's because refs would have trouble signalling to the scorer's table if they couldn't represent a player's jersey digit with a single hand.

[GLTBD]

You mean why don't they allow numbers including 6 through 9? I'm pretty sure it's because refs would have trouble signalling to the scorer's table if they couldn't represent a player's jersey digit with a single hand.

Thanks, please bear with me I am new to trying to understand the game of basketball as well as becoming a Duke fan as I have learned a lot on this forum. Also why would K not like zero?

[kmspeaks]

This has the makings of a pretty cool t-shirt, in the hands of someone with more design skills than I have.

I'd buy one!

[Duke79UNLV77]

A championship put him over the top! 2,000+ points, 400+ assists.
You want me to start as a freshman, coach? Fine. Come off the bench as a sophomore? Fine. Switch to point guard mid-way through junior year? Fine. Let Nolan share some more playmaking responsibility mid-way through senior year? No problem.

[4decadedukie]

I strongly suspect that will happen.

[mgtr]

I agree, Scheyer is the definition of team player. To quote the memorable words of Larry the Cable Guy -- get 'er done!

[banneheim]

YES! I agree...I will miss him.

[J_C_Steel]

Even though he was never a First-Team All-American, I have to agree. The guy played all kinds of positions, did everything you could want, and led the team his senior year to an unlikely national championship.

He will be Duke's #30 forever.

[mikepp33]

i want his or singler's jersey...btw where can you get authentic jerseys like the ones they have been wearing...u can see D's and some other stuff in the white part of the jersey but I cant find them anywhere online

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

I'm so happy right now, what the heck. YESS Retire it.

[InSpades]

If Kyle comes back and wins another national championship I don't think they can deny him :).

[The Gordog]

A championship put him over the top! 2,000+ points, 400+ assists.
You want me to start as a freshman, coach? Fine. Come off the bench as a sophomore? Fine. Switch to point guard mid-way through junior year? Fine. Let Nolan share some more playmaking responsibility mid-way through senior year? No problem.

Anybody know his points total tonight? Did he make it to 17 (the # needed to match JW)?

[scheyersbiggestfan]

Maybe I will start that group on Facebook...

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Anybody know his points total tonight? Did he make it to 17 (the # needed to match JW)?

Aww na he only had 15

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Anybody know his points total tonight? Did he make it to 17 (the # needed to match JW)?

15pts

[4decadedukie]

As I have written in several threads during the last months, I strongly suspect Jon will return to the Duke bench, wearing a business suite and as a coach.

[mgtr]

He would look funny in a business suite. I do believe that he may end up in coaching, however. Hopefully he has an NBA run first.

[BlueintheFace]

It won't happen. He hasn't met the benchmarks needed so don't get your hopes up guys.

That doesn't take away from the fact that he is now a Duke Legend.

[basket1544]

Truly I think the benchmarks needed can be thrown out the window by Coach K and Coach just may do so for this guy.
Even if it isn't retired he'll always be #30 to me, even though Seth may be borrowing it next year.

[darthur]

It won't happen. He hasn't met the benchmarks needed so don't get your hopes up guys.

That doesn't take away from the fact that he is now a Duke Legend.

It's crazy to imagine that we could win the national championship with and yet have no jerseys be retired. And yet...

[turnandburn55]

Has Duke even had a Final Four team in which no jerseys were retired??

[David]

Has Duke even had a Final Four team in which no jerseys were retired??

No for a natl championship - Laett, Hurley and Hill from 91 and 92; Battier and JWill from 01. There must be some Final4 teams with no retired numbers.

This was a true team and it would be fitting if their 'only' banner was from the natty champ.

[pfrduke]

There will be no number retired this year. Which is fitting for the biggest team effort of any champion that Duke's had.

[brevity]

There will be no number retired this year. Which is fitting for the biggest team effort of any champion that Duke's had.

Well said. If Scheyer gets the nod, it will be years from now, after careful deliberation and perspective. Our present excitement shouldn't influence our opinion.

You know what's so great about Jon Scheyer's career, now that it's over? It makes for such great debate. Scheyer is a stat geek's dream -- people can pore over the numbers and compare them to players of other eras, as fans do in baseball. (I look forward to reading Olympic Fan's take on the subject.)

At the same time, Scheyer is full of intangibles -- versatility, glue guy presence, leader, champion. Even people not all that interested in stats can put forth good arguments on his behalf.

My take? I'm of the belief that jersey retirements, like Halls of Fame, are stronger when they're less inclusive. There can be greatness outside of the pantheon.

[striker219]

If they retire #30 what does Seth Curry wear next year?



THANK YOU JON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

No for a natl championship - Laett, Hurley and Hill from 91 and 92; Battier and JWill from 01. There must be some Final4 teams with no retired numbers.

This was a true team and it would be fitting if their 'only' banner was from the natty champ.

Every previous Duke Final Four team has had at least one player whose jersey was retired.

[anon]

If they retire #30 what does Seth Curry wear next year?



THANK YOU JON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uh... even if Jon never has his jersey number retired, I feel quite confident that Seth Curry will not wear number 30 next year. There at least should be a one-year moratorium.

[DevilDawg]

Tonight I'll go with the vibe and say yes, but once the championship euphoria begins to diminish...

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Every previous Duke Final Four team has had at least one player whose jersey was retired.

Except the 1966 team.

[greybeard]

My favorite Scheyer play perhaps ever, yes more favorite than "the shot" against Tech, was his tip, close to dunk, off a shot that missed everything. He came from almost behind the basket, contacted the ball at rim height, seemed to catch it in this fingers, and touched it back in. Too bad he's not "athletic." :rolleyes: By the way, one of at least my keys to the game was not getting the ball stolen while occupying the ball up top--a key source of easy scores by Butler. Saw none of that.

Scheyer, I think, grew as much as anyone on that team in his senior year. In one sense he lead the way for his fellow seniors by being inclusive; when the guy in control is inclusive, fully inclusive, of guys who are reaching, it creates the opportunity for growth. At the same time, I belive that he learned from Zoubek and Lance, learned from their extroverted, out-their styles which reached back to the Plumlees and claimed a piece of the leadership mantel, which Scheyer was not only pleased to share but clearly took joy in seeing manifest.

Some leaders have to lead all the time--take that roll so seriously that they inadvertently suppress full expression by others. Jon didn't do that and embraced the roll of being able to relax a bit when Zoubek and Lance took over leading into timeouts.

Jumbo picked a winner with Scheyer; Scheyer picked a winner with Duke.

[gumbomoop]

My favorite Scheyer play perhaps ever, yes more favorite than "the shot" against Tech, was his tip, close to dunk, off a shot that missed everything. He came from almost behind the basket, contacted the ball at rim height, seemed to catch it in this fingers, and touched it back in. Too bad he's not "athletic."

As a Scheyer devotee, I appreciate greybeard's sarcasm re the view that JS is not athletic.

He is plenty athletic, but in ways too subtle for the casual, if paid, sports analysts - scribes for and to The Stoopids - to notice. For example, the belief that JS can't get into the lane. Bollix. What The Stoopids mean is that, as he has no crossover, and doesn't look speedy, it should logically be impossible for JS to drive for layups against a competent defender. But JS's intangibles are so numerous and sophisticated that they make his tangibles pretty athletic. So in fact JS does intermittently get into the lane, because he figures out how to approach the defensive problem, and he solves it. He knows it's important to get into the lane occasionally [his knowing an intangible], and so he uses a combination of his court sense [intangible] and his real - true, not G-level unreal - physical ability [tangible] to make both normal and, yep, circus lay-ups.

I'm not an NBA devotee. But I'm guessing he plays some there. I guess he'd have to work on his handle and his ability to fight off physical defense. It seems foolish to underestimate JS's intangibles and his application thereof to advance his tangibles.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

I think a senior captian on every championship team number should be retired. With that said.....RETIRE SCHEYER!!!!!!

[Classof06]

It's a done deal. Truthfully, I thought Scheyer probably needed a national title to ensure having his number retired...and that's exactly what he did. Throw in the fact that I personally believe he's one of Coach K's favorite players ever, and that he's from Chicago like K, and I have no doubts.

And not at all to slight any former players, but if Redick and Shelden Williams can get their numbers retired (as they both most clearly deserved), then Scheyer should undoubtedly be up there as well. He might not have the individual awards they did, but he has the ultimate team accomplishment that those two did not.

Book it, nobody will ever wear #30 for Duke again. And they shouldn't.

[RoyalBlue08]

Not to be a downer here, but I think this championship was the ultimate team effort. You can make an argument that Jon, Nolan, Kyle, and Brian all were equally important in making it happen. I think jersey retirements should be for individual greatness, not team accomplishments. Those guys earned that banner that will be hanging next year. I'm not so sure that Jon will go down as one of the top X players in Duke history, as much as I love the kid. In fact, I think in a few years we will all agree that Kyle was the best player on this team....

[Houston]

Great player! Duke Hall of Fame athlete! However, we can not retire everyone's number. The numbers on the rafters were the best of the best.

[juise]

It's a done deal. Truthfully, I thought Scheyer probably needed a national title to ensure having his number retired

I don't know how the championship gets credited to Jon. He was a key part and maybe if he was the MOP at every tournament site, we'd be talking. But he really didn't carry Duke through this tournament. He didn't get any first team A-A honors or ACC POY honors. This is almost like saying that if the '99 team had won, that Duke should have retired Carawell's jersey (who actually won an ACC POY). It just doesn't add up.

I love the kid, but I don't see the jersey retirement happening. Duke has many more greats to come and we're going to need some numbers!



Book it, nobody will ever wear #30 for Duke again. And they shouldn't.

I wore my Dahntay jersey in honor of Jon last night... and I think I just might wear it again next season. ;)

[TheBrianZoubekExperience]

Love Scheyer but hes not worthy of jersey retirement. Not a national player of the year. Great, solid Duke player but not worthy of having his jersey retired.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Looking at his overall career stats topping it off with a title I think he derserves it.

[DevilDawg]

It's a done deal. Truthfully, I thought Scheyer probably needed a national title to ensure having his number retired...and that's exactly what he did. I think you could argue that he wasn't even the best player on this team. This title was a team effort and although Jon was an essential part of the title, others were just as responsible.


Throw in the fact that I personally believe he's one of Coach K's favorite players ever, and that he's from Chicago like K, and I have no doubts. And none of this is really relevant to whether Scheyer is good enough to have his number retired. Because he is from Chicago like Coach K. Really? That's part of the final consideration for retiring a jersey? If so, Duke should just go ahead and stop retiring jerseys and even take down the others hanging in the rafters.


And not at all to slight any former players, but if Redick and Shelden Williams can get their numbers retired (as they both most clearly deserved), then Scheyer should undoubtedly be up there as well. He might not have the individual awards they did,
Redick : 2-time ACC POY, multiple National NPOY Awards, 2-time 1st Team All American, Most points at Duke, Most 3 pointers at Duke
Shelden : 2-time National DPOY, 1st Team AA, Most blocks at Duke, most rebounds at Duke
Scheyer:No NPOY or DPOY, 2nd Team AA this year

Only one other player with a retired jersey did not receive a National POY award, but Mullins was a two-time AA and an ACC POY.


but he has the ultimate team accomplishment that those two did not. The emphasis being on TEAM of course. Jon Scheyer has had a phenomenal career, and will be fondly remembered, but he has not personally accomplished what is necessary to have his number in the rafters.

[juise]

Only one other player with a retired jersey did not receive a National POY award, but Mullins was a two-time AA and an ACC POY.

We agree on almost everything, but I have to nitpick (it's what we do around here, right?). I'm pretty sure Bobby Hurley didn't win any NPOY awards. The NCAA assist records is pretty decent, I suppose. ;)

[CDu]

It's a done deal. Truthfully, I thought Scheyer probably needed a national title to ensure having his number retired...and that's exactly what he did. Throw in the fact that I personally believe he's one of Coach K's favorite players ever, and that he's from Chicago like K, and I have no doubts.

And not at all to slight any former players, but if Redick and Shelden Williams can get their numbers retired (as they both most clearly deserved), then Scheyer should undoubtedly be up there as well. He might not have the individual awards they did, but he has the ultimate team accomplishment that those two did not.

Book it, nobody will ever wear #30 for Duke again. And they shouldn't.

I disagree. Jersey retirement is an individual honor, based on a collection of criteria. Winning a championship is a team accomplishment. There are plenty of great Duke players who have championship rings but no jersey retirement, just as there are plenty of players without championship rings who have their jerseys retired.

There is no requirement that a championship team must also have a player with his jersey retired, just as there is no requirement that a player win a championship to have his jersey retired.

Scheyer had a wonderful career. But I don't think he had quite enough individual success to warrant jersey retirement. That's not a slap at Scheyer - it is just a compliment to those whose jerseys are retired. The bar to get a retired jersey is very high (we're talking major team/national records, ACC PoY awards, NPoY or NDPoY awards, 1st Team All-American honors, etc). Scheyer had a fantastic career and went out on a championship team, but he has none of those individual accomplishments.

[Relics]

The words worthy and rafters in the same discussion have a dirty ring to them...

[Jumbo]

Retire it. Retire it now. I don't want to hear about what Dick Brodhead supposedly said about "requirements" for jersey retirement -- there are not set standards. I don't want to hear about how Jon Scheyer finished just short of X award or Y award, or how X player or Y player doesn't have his jersey retired. I don't want to hear about how Scheyer deferred -- for the good of the team -- early in his career. I just know that Jon Scheyer was the best player and best leader on a national championship team. And I don't ever want to see anyone else wearing No. 30 at Duke ever again.

[diveonthefloor]

Best thing about this discussion:

Jon could not care less about having his jersey retired.

He wanted to win a NCAA title with this team. Nothing more, nothing less.

I now have two favorite Duke players of all time, and no one comes close:

Shane Battier
Jon Scheyer

(and not necessarily in any order)

[phaedrus]

Retire it. Retire it now. I don't want to hear about what Dick Brodhead supposedly said about "requirements" for jersey retirement -- there are not set standards. I don't want to hear about how Jon Scheyer finished just short of X award or Y award, or how X player or Y player doesn't have his jersey retired. I don't want to hear about how Scheyer deferred -- for the good of the team -- early in his career. I just know that Jon Scheyer was the best player and best leader on a national championship team. And I don't ever want to see anyone else wearing No. 30 at Duke ever again.


Yes.

[Wander]

There is no requirement that a championship team must also have a player with his jersey retired

Given how rare national championships are, there should be.

[DevilHorns]

Bobby Hurley was retired without national player of the year recognition. So Broadhead's statement is inconsistent and in my eyes, crap.

Hurley did have AP 1st-team honors in 1993 and NCAA tourney MOP in 1992.

Sigh. I want Jon up there as well. I think he may go down as my favorite Duke player of all time. The guy is just class. We'll see.

[kexman]

I'm not sure if any of them get retired at this point. Kyle has a chance if he comes back and has an excellent year. I was thinking seeing a jersey that said "The 3 S's" would be cool. As a group of 3 they were outstanding. Feel a little bad not having Z and Lance on the jersey, but I wouldn't mind honor them as a single unit!

[terrih]

Best thing about this discussion:

Jon could not care less about having his jersey retired.

He wanted to win a NCAA title with this team. Nothing more, nothing less.

I now have two favorite Duke players of all time, and no one comes close:

Shane Battier
Jon Scheyer

(and not necessarily in any order)

This!!!!!!! Couldn't have said it any better.

[-bdbd]

Retire it. Retire it now. I don't want to hear about what Dick Brodhead supposedly said about "requirements" for jersey retirement -- there are not set standards. I don't want to hear about how Jon Scheyer finished just short of X award or Y award, or how X player or Y player doesn't have his jersey retired. I don't want to hear about how Scheyer deferred -- for the good of the team -- early in his career. I just know that Jon Scheyer was the best player and best leader on a national championship team. And I don't ever want to see anyone else wearing No. 30 at Duke ever again.

After the game I spoke with my dad who is now a modest Duke fan. Dad is a bit of an expert on "character," as retired semior Navy officer of 30 years. Anyway, he was telling me that as things were tight throughout the second half he really believed Duke was going to win. Why? "Because, having watched Scheyer in several tight games, I was very confident that he just wouldn't ALLOW his team to lose. I thought that was insightful. And no doubt that sort of attitude is contagious.

But I think all of this discussion about "retirement standards" and NPOY awards, etc. is missing the big picture. Sure, Jon put up some gaudy numbers. But what he did to really deserve the retirement was less tangible. It was his LEADERSHIP. It was his knack for being at the right place, always doing the little things. His example. Even if we were to replace his stats - certainly Dawkins is physically capable of most of those averages, there's no way we win the NC without his character and leadership.
Throughout the tournament I kept thinking back to his statement very early in the year where he set the standard for this team, what most of us thought at the time was impossibly high, telling whoever would listen that he expected this team to vie for a National Championship. I have to believe that statement was in the back of some players' minds during those "doubting momenmts" of the tournament.

He deserves it. But certainly not solely, or even mostly, for his stats.


:cool:

[scheyeronfire]

Bobby Hurley was retired without national player of the year recognition. So Broadhead's statement is inconsistent and in my eyes, crap.

Hurley did have AP 1st-team honors in 1993 and NCAA tourney MOP in 1992.

Sigh. I want Jon up there as well. I think he may go down as my favorite Duke player of all time. The guy is just class. We'll see.

You have to either win a National POY award or set an NCAA record. BH set the NCAA record for most career assists. Now if you want to amend the requirements that's fine, or JS can go down as a great player on a championship team (Dunleavy, Boozer etc) that will not have their numbers retired.

[loran16]

No on Retiring his #.

The Requirements are very high, as seen by the fact that this is a question. But there are plenty of key starters on our championship teams that were not retired. If you retire scheyer, well....then you have to make a case to retire them as well....

I mean put it this way, if you retire scheyer, then next year you have to retire Smith, even if duke doesn't make the F4 next year and Smith isn't a National All American (1st Team). There's no way you can argue otherwise...and this opens floodgates on future championship teams.

I love Jon, but the requirements exist for a reason.

-----------------

As to us winning a championship and not retiring a number? Well, that's an incredible thing, no? Shows how much of a team thing this was. It's not something to be ashamed of.

[licc85]

You have to either win a National POY award or set an NCAA record. BH set the NCAA record for most career assists. Now if you want to amend the requirements that's fine, or JS can go down as a great player on a championship team (Dunleavy, Boozer etc) that will not have their numbers retired.

Close but not quite . . . I believe the requirements for Jersey retirement at Duke are that you need to make first team all-america or get a national POY award of some kind AND YOU HAVE TO GRADUATE. The last part is important. This is why Elton Brand's jersey is not retired. Look it up, every number hanging in cameron fits those requirements, and going by that, Jon just barely missed out.

[Starter]

I think Krzyzewski would personally want him retired as a testament to the prototype Duke player in the new age of college basketball. For four years, Jon did everything asked of him. Starting, bench, out of position at point guard. And he was professional and capable in every role and every situation. Before Singler and Zoubek turned it on midway through this season, he kept things moving forward, and he totally bailed out the team last season after the position switch.

Players like Jon are few and far between in today's ego-driven college game. I would think Krzyzewski would love to hold him up as a standard that a player like Jon is still even possible.

We'll see how it goes. If I had to bet, I'd say Jon blended in enough to not make them want to hang his number. But I would have zero problem with putting him up there.

[papa whiskey]

I feel the same way about retiring jerseys as I do about pro sports Halls of fame. When you say the persons name, in your head do you immediately think that there is no doubt that his jersey should be retired? If not, the answer is no. I love Jon and will miss him so much, but honestly is he JJ, J-Wil, Christian, G-Hill, ......? I'm not sure.

[gumbomoop]

Retire it. Retire it now. I don't want to hear about what Dick Brodhead supposedly said about "requirements" for jersey retirement -- there are not set standards. I don't want to hear about how Jon Scheyer finished just short of X award or Y award, or how X player or Y player doesn't have his jersey retired. I don't want to hear about how Scheyer deferred -- for the good of the team -- early in his career. I just know that Jon Scheyer was the best player and best leader on a national championship team. And I don't ever want to see anyone else wearing No. 30 at Duke ever again.

Despite papa whiskey's strong point [post 144], I'm with the irascible Jumbo on this one.

I don't particularly respect the requirements - if indeed they exist as absolutes - for they seem, in my irascible judgment, too dependent on "award standards" that predictably overemphasize points scored and eye-test athleticism. Jon's greatness as a player and leader emanates substantially from his astounding court sense and bb IQ, which are Shane-like.

Fellow posters will perhaps forgive me for quoting yet again The Playcaller, who observed in December '08, "Jon Scheyer is real good at playing basketball." By which deliberately understated praise Playcaller meant, "Jon Scheyer is way, way better than merely good; his play looks mundane but is actually remarkable." Shane-like.

I'd be very hesitant to judge Jon by papa whiskey's implicit standard: "If it's not obvious, then it's a no." For Jon's brilliance is not eye-test obvious.

[papa whiskey]

Despite papa whiskey's strong point [post 144], I'm with the irascible Jumbo on this one.

I don't particularly respect the requirements - if indeed they exist as absolutes - for they seem, in my irascible judgment, too dependent on "award standards" that predictably overemphasize points scored and eye-test athleticism. Jon's greatness as a player and leader emanates substantially from his astounding court sense and bb IQ, which are Shane-like.

Fellow posters will perhaps forgive me for quoting yet again The Playcaller, who observed in December '08, "Jon Scheyer is real good at playing basketball." By which deliberately understated praise Playcaller meant, "Jon Scheyer is way, way better than merely good; his play looks mundane but is actually remarkable." Shane-like.

I'd be very hesitant to judge Jon by papa whiskey's implicit standard: "If it's not obvious, then it's a no." For Jon's brilliance is not eye-test obvious.

Jon is one of my all-time favs. If his jersey ends up in the rafters I will not object and will honor it always. Smart minds can agree or disagree on whether or not a player is deserving. I can't argue with any sure conviction that his jersey should definately not hang. I was just pointing out that only the absolute best should be honored. I tremble to think sometimes what our team would have been without Jon for the last four years. I guess I was just trying to offer perspective on the matter.

[Surfsideron]

Jon will be retired, as will Singler and Smith when the time comes. There is no doubt!

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Jon will be retired, as will Singler and Smith when the time comes. There is no doubt!

Umm not to sure, but I hope you're right

[oldnavy]

Here is a practical question. When do you run out of numbers? For some crazy reason, basketball uniforms cannot contain a number higher than 5 (it was explained to me that is so a ref can use on hand or two to signal the scorers table in one motion). So here are the available numbers:
0,1,2,3,4,5
00,10,12,13,14,15
20,21,22,23,24,25
30,31,32,33,34,35
40,41,42,43,44,45
50,51,51,52,54,55

Duke has already retired: 10,25,44,43,24,35,32,11,33,31,22,23,4

That leaves 36-13= 23 numbers left.

If we retire, 30, 12, 2 we are down to 20....

At what point do you have to stop? 15?

I think that the rules should be modified to allow any number 1-99, but that is just me....

[GODUKEGO]

Rank Player Points
1. Johnny Dawkins 2556
2. Christian Laettner 2460
3. Mike Gminski 2323
4. Danny Ferry 2155
5. Mark Alarie 2136
6T Gene Banks 2079
6T Jason Williams 2079
8. Jon Scheyer 2077

Assist:
1. Bobby Hurley 1076
2. Chris Duhon 819
3. Tommy Amaker 708
4. Jason Williams 644
5. Quin Snyder 575
6. Johnny Dawkins 555
7. Danny Ferry 506
8. Steve Wojciechowski 505
9. Grant Hill 461
10. Jon Scheyer 440

This year as our point guard, he had 194 assist.


Love Jon and he is a tremendous representative of Duke basketball. When you look at the names above him, it does makes you wonder. One more 3 point shot over his four years and he would have been 6th overall.

[JohnGalt]

I don't particularly respect the requirements - if indeed they exist as absolutes - for they seem, in my irascible judgment, too dependent on "award standards" that predictably overemphasize points scored and eye-test athleticism. Jon's greatness as a player and leader emanates substantially from his astounding court sense and bb IQ, which are Shane-like.

I believe the only requirements are the player graduating and some sort of national recognition (POY, All-American, Defensive All-American, et al). That being said, if points scored is subconsciously overemphasized, there should be no discussion. Scoring 2000+ points should be his golden ticket regardless of the rest of his body of work.
Fortunately for him however, he ranks in the top 10 for assists even though he played the 1 only 1.5 seasons and as we've heard ad nauseam, "isn't a real point guard", in the top 10 for rebounds for guards, has the 2nd highest free throw percentage in Duke history, and is in the top 10 for steals.

There are multitudes of other indications such as his career 2:1 A/T ratio and near 3:1 his senior year, the only entire year he played the 1.

I agree with a previous poster that - for whatever reason - at first glance, Jon doesn't register on the litmus test. However, I disagree with the post quoted in that in order to truly view how valuable Jon has been (sad to say that) to the program, all one needs to do is look at the "predictably overemphasized" statistical totals.

Couple the stats with the the leadership he has displayed, his commitment to team basketball as he has displayed (coming off the bench as a Soph.) and I only see one end result...

...to have seen the last of #30 in Durham...

[hq2]

Right now, in the afterglow of winning the N-C, there will be a big push to do it. However, we should note that even though they did win it, Scheyer was not even finals MVP. In 2001, Shane Battier personally took the game over down the stretch to win it, as NPOY. That's why his jersey is in the rafters, (among other reasons). Once everyone settles down a bit and compares Scheyer's career with Gene Banks, Mark Alarie, Jim Spanarkel, Bob Verga, Jack Marin, and most appropriately, Trajan Langdon, I think folks will agree he was not a better player than most of them. Consequently, I don't see it happening; or if it does, all of them deserve it too.

[DukieInBrasil]

what a great discussion. I have some issues with some of the "criteria" for jersey retirements. AA awards, NPOY awards and statistical records seem to be the main criteria, and anyone who achieves any of those is obviously an excellent player. However, records are obviously based on stats and often times AA and NPOY awards are also based on stats, which often times but not always, require that X player forsake team development for personal achievement.
Earlier in the year, there was a discussion about who was a better PG, John Wall or Mr. Scheyer. Staistically they were pretty close, with maybe a slight edge to Wall. Mr. Jason Evans (I believe) made the astute observation that, (paraphrasing) "the only way you can argue that Wall is better than Scheyer is if you ignore turnovers and defense". I think that this statement gets to the heart of the Scheyer Dilemma. He is really good at everything but not dominant at anything, and in my opinion, that is by choice. I believe that Jon could have easily averaged around 25ppg and gotten more ooohs and ahhhhs if he had made that his goal, but he made winning a championship his goal and he knew that if he went for personal glory the team would suffer.
If Jon had averaged ~25ppg he may very well have been an AA and ACC POY, but Duke probably wouldn't have won the title. In that situation, does he then become more deserving of jersey retirement b/c he won national accolades but not the title? Does Duke University value personal sacrifice for group achievement? I know Coach K does.

[Genedoc]

Love the kid. Will be an all time favorite based on the last couple of years and the "Scheyer face".

No jersey retirement.

[Duvall]

Yes.

Regretfully, no. The supreme honor of jersey retirement should be reserved for players who, in addition to making indelible contributions to Duke basketball, could also stake a plausible claim to being the best or most important player in college basketball at some point during their career. I love Jon Scheyer, but I just don't think you can say that about him.

Also, it's hard to see how Duke can retire #30 without also retiring #12, regardless of Kyle's offseason decision. For most of the three years that the two played together, Kyle was the better and more important player for Duke - including nearly every game of Duke's remarkable 18-1 finishing stretch to the season.

[GODUKEGO]

Rank Player Points
1. Johnny Dawkins 2556
2. Christian Laettner 2460
3. Mike Gminski 2323
4. Danny Ferry 2155
5. Mark Alarie 2136
6T Gene Banks 2079
6T Jason Williams 2079
8. Jon Scheyer 2077

Assist:
1. Bobby Hurley 1076
2. Chris Duhon 819
3. Tommy Amaker 708
4. Jason Williams 644
5. Quin Snyder 575
6. Johnny Dawkins 555
7. Danny Ferry 506
8. Steve Wojciechowski 505
9. Grant Hill 461
10. Jon Scheyer 440

Steals:

Player #
1. Chris Duhon 300
2. Shane Battier 266
3. Tommy Amaker 259
4. Christian Laettner 243
5. Jason Williams 235
6. Grant Hill 218
7. Jon Scheyer 208
8. Steve Wojciechowski 203
9. Bobby Hurley 202
10. Thomas Hill 194


This year as our point guard, he had 194 assist.


Love Jon and he is a tremendous representative of Duke basketball. When you look at the names above him, it does makes you wonder. One more 3 point shot over his four years and he would have been 6th overall.

Forgot steals!!

[papa whiskey]

Rank Player Points
1. Johnny Dawkins 2556
2. Christian Laettner 2460
3. Mike Gminski 2323
4. Danny Ferry 2155
5. Mark Alarie 2136
6T Gene Banks 2079
6T Jason Williams 2079
8. Jon Scheyer 2077

Assist:
1. Bobby Hurley 1076
2. Chris Duhon 819
3. Tommy Amaker 708
4. Jason Williams 644
5. Quin Snyder 575
6. Johnny Dawkins 555
7. Danny Ferry 506
8. Steve Wojciechowski 505
9. Grant Hill 461
10. Jon Scheyer 440

This year as our point guard, he had 194 assist.


Love Jon and he is a tremendous representative of Duke basketball. When you look at the names above him, it does makes you wonder. One more 3 point shot over his four years and he would have been 6th overall.

I think there is a name missing from the player points list.

[Genedoc]

I think there is a name missing from the player points list.
Some kid named Redick scored a bucket or two in his tenure.

[papa whiskey]

Some kid named Redick scored a bucket or two in his tenure.

Just a couple.

[NSDukeFan]

I feel the same way about retiring jerseys as I do about pro sports Halls of fame. When you say the persons name, in your head do you immediately think that there is no doubt that his jersey should be retired? If not, the answer is no. I love Jon and will miss him so much, but honestly is he JJ, J-Wil, Christian, G-Hill, ......? I'm not sure.

I agree with DukieinBrasil that it has been a good discussion and I don't have a strong opinion either way. I thought papa whiskey made an interesting point here. I wonder though if when you look back at Jon's contribution to Duke, including this fantastic championship run, will he be remembered with the greats? Certainly he won't be as an NBA prospect, but what about as a college player at Duke? Also, just because he may not have been the best player on his team does not preclude jersey retirement. If Kyle returns, I expect there would not be much of a discussion about number 12.

[Troublemaker]

I don't think national recognition (1st team AA, etc) should matter because then you are letting outsiders judge and influence what should be a completely internal matter based on an internal determination of a player's value to a program over the course of his career, not just in games, but in practice, in the classroom, as a leader, etc, overall as a superior representative of the university.

Jon appears to be in the Alarie / Shelden zone where it could go either way for him. Personally, I say retire his jersey (and Mark's, too). I would err on the side of allowing too many players in rather than not allowing enough. But that's just my vote and I respect all dissenting opinions.

[miramar]

what a great discussion. I have some issues with some of the "criteria" for jersey retirements. AA awards, NPOY awards and statistical records seem to be the main criteria, and anyone who achieves any of those is obviously an excellent player. However, records are obviously based on stats and often times AA and NPOY awards are also based on stats, which often times but not always, require that X player forsake team development for personal achievement.
Earlier in the year, there was a discussion about who was a better PG, John Wall or Mr. Scheyer. Staistically they were pretty close, with maybe a slight edge to Wall. Mr. Jason Evans (I believe) made the astute observation that, (paraphrasing) "the only way you can argue that Wall is better than Scheyer is if you ignore turnovers and defense". I think that this statement gets to the heart of the Scheyer Dilemma. He is really good at everything but not dominant at anything, and in my opinion, that is by choice. I believe that Jon could have easily averaged around 25ppg and gotten more ooohs and ahhhhs if he had made that his goal, but he made winning a championship his goal and he knew that if he went for personal glory the team would suffer.
If Jon had averaged ~25ppg he may very well have been an AA and ACC POY, but Duke probably wouldn't have won the title. In that situation, does he then become more deserving of jersey retirement b/c he won national accolades but not the title? Does Duke University value personal sacrifice for group achievement? I know Coach K does.

February 2009: Duke has lost four out of six, and one of those victories was in OT against Miami (in Cameron!), so it could have easily been five of six. Clemson beats Duke by 27 and Carolina hangs 101 points on the Blue Devils.

It appears that Duke will have one more late-season swoon, while UNC goes from strength to strength and is already preparing a spot in the trophy case for another national championship. Carolina has become the undisputed national powerhouse while Duke is the national disappointment. With UNC's premier recruiting class coming in, it's only going to get worse, so we probably should shut down DBR just to spare the Duke faithful further agony.

Coach K, who all the experts agree is past his prime, puts the alarmingly unathletic Jon Scheyer at the point even though there is no way that he can provide the ball pressure and penetration that Duke needs from its point guard in order to be successful. Clearly a desperation move from a coach who can't recruit the kind of players that he used to. No one would be surprised if Duke ends up in the NIT, which would be the ultimate insult for Duke or Carolina.

April 2010: The senior class finishes with two ACC titles and an NCAA championship, and Jon is a key component in all of it. The guys from the wrong side of the tracks get to see a Broadway play.

Scheyer has my vote. His 2,000 points are only one part of his contribution to Duke basketball. He's a unique player under unique circumstances.

[greybeard]

The prevailing thought is that the three years that preceeded this one were years of relative draught for Duke. I dissent. I have always thought and said that they were three years of some of the greatest innovations a coach had made from one year to the next to fit personnel and in the process make the game wildly entertaining. Was Scheyer the best player on any of those teams? Depends. You take Scheyer off those teams, what might have been.

For one, you only thought you saw discontentment from McRob. He would have imploded way before down the stretch had it not been for Jon's incredible steadiness in (1) taking care of the ball when the three other littles, not one of them could, and that would be Paulus, Nelson, and G. 2 scoring the ball with a high percentage from the exterior. 3, for a freshman, playing incredible defense in multiple positions and doing more than his share on the defensive board

For seconds, where would Nelson have been in his senior year if Scheyer had not been the stealth defender in a defense that featured wing pressure that invited, begged other teams to make penetrating passes to a seemingly one-on-one big in front of the rim, only to see Jon shoot the gap, steal the ball, take a bounce or two up the floor to let Nelson shake out of his defense stance and create some separation and then get it to him. Where would Nelson have been if there was not someone wohom you could give the ball to in the half court and know not only that it would be safe, but someone, often Nelson or G, would end up with it with advantage? Anyone else on that team responsible for creating the rhythm and control on offense that allowed two stellar offensive players who had no ability to create for others have someone lead an offense, from the point or know, that got it to them. Had Scheyer not played that roll it might well have gotten downright ugly for Duke, and G unquestionably would have been on the court at Duke for his senior year instead of living large in the pros as we speak.

For three, when the point position was a shambles, who took care of it and made Duke's wing-attack offense the marvel of the league, at least until injuries started wearing Duke down and other teams kicked the crap out of Singler and wore him out?

ACC Championships in the reafters because one guy did what it took to hold the team together.

Talking about holding the team together, that's exactly what Jon did this year while Kyle wandered in the desert of an experiment that K thankfully jettisoned and until Zouberman emerged from a crater after his space craft crashed.

I don't know what it takes to have one's Jersey retired at Duke. It really is none of my affair and I will not weigh in on that discussion.

I can say as a guy who thinks perhaps foolishly that he sees the nuance of great basketball and has enjoyed the heck out of the last four years that Jon played, that Jon made an enormous contribution in diverse years each and every year during what I regard as one of the most vibrant periods in college basketball and any team has displayed. I think that wihout his extraordinary abilities at work in each season there probably would have been the draught that everyone says there was anyway.

I thought that Jon deserved POTY honors in the ACC and certainly the Cousy Award which is a position that no less anti-Duker than Doug Gottlieb was out in front on. Having missed those honors, I am sure that Jon can live with the fact that there are those in the Duke community who question where he stands in Duke lore.

There are four things that I think matter to Jon: first, the love and respect of his coach; second, the love and respect of his teammates; third, having spent four years at Duke; fourth, a clean sweep, regular season, ACC, and National Championship. Pretty good list if you ask me.

[PADukeMom]

Coming off Monday's emotional victory my first response was yes #30 goes to the rafters. In retrospect now I don't think so either. I have nothing but love for Jon & an grateful to have experienced his growth as a player for the past 4 years at DUKE. My main obstacle was him not winning NPOY.

It will be hard for me to see another player wearing the # 30 jersey just as it is everytime a player wears #21. That will always be Trajan to me. Trajan isn't in the rafters & neither will Jon.

Our standards are higher for that honor. Remember we are not Carolina or Maryland.

[weezie]

There are four things that I think matter to Jon: first, the love and respect of his coach; second, the love and respect of his teammates; third, having spent four years at Duke; fourth, a clean sweep, regular season, ACC, and National Championship. Pretty good list if you ask me.

Well said greybeard, outstanding analysis. Nailed it.

[DevilDawg]

Edit to remove the opening. Didn't need the first part and sounded a little snide. Sorry.

If Duke lost on that desperation 3 at the end of the game and didn't win the championship, would you still be considering Scheyer's number to be retired? Someone posted some stats, but made a few errors.

Originally Posted by GODUKEGO
Rank Player Points
1. JJ Redick 2,769 (139 games)
2. Johnny Dawkins 2556 (133)
3. Christian Laettner 2460 (148)
4. Mike Gminski 2323 (122)
5. Danny Ferry 2155 (143)
6. Mark Alarie 2136 (133)
7T Gene Banks 2079 (124)
7T Jason Williams 2079 (108)
9. Jon Scheyer 2077 (144)
10. Jim Spanarkel 2012 (114)

Assist:
1. Bobby Hurley 1076
2. Chris Duhon 819
3. Tommy Amaker 708
4. Jason Williams 644
5. Quin Snyder 575
6. Johnny Dawkins 555
7. Danny Ferry 506
8. Steve Wojciechowski 505
9. Greg Paulus 468
10. Grant Hill 461
11. Jon Scheyer 440

Steals:

Player #
1. Chris Duhon 300
2. Shane Battier 266
3. Tommy Amaker 259
4. Jim Spanarkel 253
5. Christian Laettner 243
6. Jason Williams 235
7. Grant Hill 218
8. Jon Scheyer 208
9. Steve Wojciechowski 203
10. Bobby Hurley 202
11. Thomas Hill 194


I'll add rebounds:
1. Shelden Williams 1,262
2. Mike Gminski 1,242
3. Christian Laettner 1,149
4. Randy Denton 1,067
5. Mike Lewis 1,051
6. Danny Ferry 1,003
7. Gene Banks 985
8. Ronnie Mayer 954
9. Bernie Janicki 923
10. Shane Battier 887
11. Cherokee Parks 874
12. Art Heyman 865
13. Mark Alarie 833


Jon is sitting at the cusp of the top ten in several categories, but he is just short of being in the top tier. Looking at those lists, I think an argument can be made for Scheyer, but I think similar strong arguments could be made for Mark Alarie, Gene Banks, and Jim Spanarkel - all three excellent players who did not receive national individual awards.

If the only reason to retire the number is because of a title that was the result of a strong and determined team and not the result of Jon being the dominant player in either the WV or Butler game, but Jon is really humble, is a solid player overall, a really good leader, and a really, really nice guy, then there really should not be much discussion regarding retiring his jersey. It should be no. I love the guy and he was my favorite player this year, but I think he falls just short of the greatest Duke players ever in order to have his jersey retired.

[ReformedAggie]

All those numbers aside, retire his jersey. It just may be that you can't mathmatically quantify what Jon really brought to Duke basketball. He embodies the attributes of the quintessential college player: "I'll do whatever the team needs." He did, and he did it well. How do you put numbers on that? Thanks, Jon. For everything.

[throatybeard]

In 2001, Shane Battier personally took the game over down the stretch to win it, as NPOY. That's why his jersey is in the rafters, (among other reasons).

Shane's jersey had already been retired before the NCAAT. The title had nothing to do with it.

[superdave]

I think if Duke had a Final Four in Jon's previous years, then he would have gotten a bump from prior success to be first team AA this year rather than 2nd/3rd. So success breeds reputation which breeds more success.

But Jon was 3/18 from the field vs. Villanova last year and was the third option on the team. I think you've got to be the #1 option and the alpha dog for more than 1/2 a season to get over the hump. Shelden is the only #2 option who made it but by senior year he was more like #1b.

Jon is just shy in my mind.

[gumbomoop]

Coming off Monday's emotional victory my first response was yes #30 goes to the rafters. In retrospect now I don't think so either. I have nothing but love for Jon & an grateful to have experienced his growth as a player for the past 4 years at DUKE. My main obstacle was him not winning NPOY.

It will be hard for me to see another player wearing the # 30 jersey just as it is everytime a player wears #21. That will always be Trajan to me. Trajan isn't in the rafters & neither will Jon.

Our standards are higher for that honor. Remember we are not Carolina or Maryland.

No NPOY: Like Troublemaker [post 162], I prefer not to let outside judgments weigh too heavily. I don't think JS was NPOY; nor do I think that eliminates him from the CIS rafters.

Trajan: No argument that #21 is Trajan, but given hard choice between Trajan and Jon, I take Jon. Tough choice.

Not UNC/Md: For me, this might relate to oldnavy's good post [#150], re available jersey #s, and where would we have to stop, just to have enough #s left. So here's my question: Is the ref to UNC/Md a ref to their practice of retiring jerseys rather than numbers? Some years down the road, oldnavy's point kicks in, and we either cannot retire any more numbers, or we have to retire jerseys, not numbers.

I cheerfully accept JohnGalt's [post #152] corrective to my denigration of the overemphasis on mere numbers, as Jon's numbers seem to get him right up to the doorstep. For me, his court-sense-intangibles get him in. For others, not quite. Fair enough, honest difference.

I feel it only fair, however, to warn all no-voters that, whereas my own heart is filled with sweetness, light, and the very milk of human kindness, in that of the irascible Jumbo [perhaps others, as well, who knows how Jon's magic has affected them] there lurks, I fear, vengeful malevolence unbounded. I will do my best to protect you, worthy posters, but no guarantees.

Go Jon! To the rafters, to the NBA, to wherever your magic carpet delivers you next.

[magjayran]

We were discussing this during the NC game and I think that Jon should be the first player to have jersey "honored" but not retired. This will be the only time that I suggest that we steal a page from UNC's book.

[jimsumner]

If you want to start a list of Duke-players-whose-numbers-should-be-retired, that list should start with Bob Verga.

[uh_no]

We were discussing this during the NC game and I think that Jon should be the first player to have jersey "honored" but not retired. This will be the only time that I suggest that we steal a page from UNC's book.

UNC also has an absurd propensity for hanging meaningless banners.....not sure we should take any sort of banner traditions from UNC

[ReformedAggie]

UNC also has an absurd propensity for hanging meaningless banners.....not sure we should take any sort of banner traditions from UNC

and I think many may have have an absurd propensity to grip numerical quantification to a Duke career that cannot be measured in fractions and integers. not sure we should take any sort of banner traditions as tho Moses brought them down on stone tablets. plus, no cookies for you.

[hurleyfor3]

If you want to start a list of Duke-players-whose-numbers-should-be-retired, that list should start with Bob Verga.

But his number IS retired!

[jv001]

If you want to start a list of Duke-players-whose-numbers-should-be-retired, that list should start with Bob Verga.

Amen! One of Duke's very best players..ever! Go Duke!

[jimsumner]

Well, Verga's number may be retired but VERGA's number isn't, if you know what I mean.

A few years back, i wrote an article for BDW about retired jerseys at Duke and ranked Verga, Spanarkel, Alarie and Banks as the four guys worthy of re-evaluation. IMO.

Won't happen. That ship has sailed.

Trivia question. Duke has had one player during K's tenure selected first-team All-ACC three times. Name him. Bonus points for not having to look it up.:)

[CameronBornAndBred]

Already posted, but here's another thought. If they retire Jon, they need to (finally) retire Gene Banks' jersey as well.

[77devil]

Well, Verga's number may be retired but VERGA's number isn't, if you know what I mean.

A few years back, i wrote an article for BDW about retired jerseys at Duke and ranked Verga, Spanarkel, Alarie and Banks as the four guys worthy of re-evaluation. IMO.

Won't happen. That ship has sailed.

Trivia question. Duke has had one player during K's tenure selected first-team All-ACC three times. Name him. Bonus points for not having to look it up.:)

I'll try Danny Ferry

[Indoor66]

Danny Ferry

[Nugget]

Trajan Langdon?

On the retire Scheyer's jersey front, count me with those who vote that Jon falls just short, notwithstanding what a great career he has had and the incredible season he and the team gave all of us this year.

I don't see Jon as standing out above the numerous other players who it has been noted were also great, on par (at least) with Jon, but who have not had what ought to be reserved as the ultimate honor of jersey retirement:

Jim Spanarkel
Bob Verga
Gene Banks
Jack Marin
Mark Alarie
Trajan Langdon
Tommy Amaker
Chris Duhon.

All great -- but if they fall on just this side of the all-time honor, then so does Jon (and, personally, I thought Shelden Williams did too).

[Devilsfan]

I vote for Jon to get his jersey retired. He will graduate and since his adapting to being our point guard, he has led the team to the top spot in America. How many DUKE players on your list could change their position at the end of their junior year and lead their team to a national championship?

[jimsumner]

Trajan Langdon is the correct answer to the trivia question. Not Dawkins, not Ferry, not Laettner, not Hill, not Battier, not Williams, not Redick.

"Jim Spanarkel
Bob Verga
Gene Banks
Jack Marin
Mark Alarie
Trajan Langdon
Tommy Amaker
Chris Duhon."

And we haven't even mentioned Steve Vacendak, Mike Lewis, Randy Denton, Tate Armstrong, Roshown McLeod, Chris Carrawell, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy or other players who would be icons at other schools.

The competition is pretty fierce here folks.

[Newton_14]

I love Jon, and he will always be one of my favorite players of all time. But he falls just short of worthy of jersey retirement. Had he stayed on the path he was on in January and won both the National and ACC Player of The Year Awards, to go along with the National Title, then I would vote him in.

But as is, I just can't go with retiring his number. Honor it, yes. Retire it, no.

Just my opinion and I certainly respect those that feel it should be retired.

[CameronBornAndBred]

And we haven't even mentioned Steve Vacendak, Mike Lewis, Randy Denton, Tate Armstrong, Roshown McLeod, Chris Carrawell, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy or other players who would be icons at other schools.

The competition is pretty fierce here folks.
McLeod was a transfer...that puts him him out of the running up front. Maybe if he came in as a freshmen he would have done greater things, but while he was good, he was never great, so that puts him out the running after the fact, too.

[JohnGalt]

And we haven't even mentioned Steve Vacendak, Mike Lewis, Randy Denton, Tate Armstrong, Roshown McLeod, Chris Carrawell, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy or other players who would be icons at other schools.

The competition is pretty fierce here folks.

I'm pretty sure it's at least an unwritten rule that you have to graduate to have your number retired...

[phaedrus]

Trajan Langdon is the correct answer to the trivia question. Not Dawkins, not Ferry, not Laettner, not Hill, not Battier, not Williams, not Redick.

"Jim Spanarkel
Bob Verga
Gene Banks
Jack Marin
Mark Alarie
Trajan Langdon
Tommy Amaker
Chris Duhon."

And we haven't even mentioned Steve Vacendak, Mike Lewis, Randy Denton, Tate Armstrong, Roshown McLeod, Chris Carrawell, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy or other players who would be icons at other schools.

The competition is pretty fierce here folks.

Sure a lot of great players without their jerseys in the rafters. But these players have something else in common, too - something else they didn't get hung in the rafters. That's the key, to me.

[JohnGalt]

:

Jim Spanarkel
Bob Verga
Gene Banks
Jack Marin
Mark Alarie
Trajan Langdon
Tommy Amaker
Chris Duhon.

All great -- but if they fall on just this side of the all-time honor, then so does Jon (and, personally, I thought Shelden Williams did too).

I agree with you about Shelden. That being said, I also think if Shelden's in, Jon has to be.

The simple fact is that none of the players you quoted above (sans Duhon's freshman year) were able to bring a NC to Duke, let alone their senior year playing at a new position because the team required it.

If Duhon beats UCONN and wins the NC his senior year, he's in. If Trajan beats UCONN his senior year, he's in. If Tommy Amaker goes on to beat Indiana and wins it all, he's probably in too.

IMO, Jon is truly a unique case here due in large part to what he brought to Duke aside from raw numbers. He started as a frosh only to come off the bench as a sophomore because that's what K required...and he never complained (actually flourished). Middle of the way through his junior year he's asked to play the 1 and the team finishes 10-2. As a senior he has the highest A/T Ratio in the country for a reasonable part of the season (finishes top 10), in contention for the Naismith, and for the Cousy Award, ALL playing what is still a relatively new position to him. Oh, and he wins the NC. This is all on top of his numbers which already put him at the doorstep of having his number retired.

Jon is the consummate team player and, thus, deserves to the be last to wear #30. Isn't that what having your jersey retired is all about?

[DevilDawg]

That being said, I also think if Shelden's in, Jon has to be.

Why? Even if I agree that Shelden may have been a tough case for retirement, he was a two-time National Defensive Player of the Year winner. He left Duke as the all-time leading rebounder and all-time leading shot blocker. Jon is now leaving Duke the all-time leader in...what? Heart? Leadership? Team Playerishness? Jon has some really good numbers. But not better than Gene Banks or Mark Alarie, or Jim Spanarkel.


The simple fact is that none of the players you quoted above (sans Duhon's freshman year) were able to bring a NC to Duke, let alone their senior year playing at a new position because the team required it.

Plenty of players have been moved from one position to another and have been asked to fill different roles as the team dynamics change from year to year or during the course of the year. Singler has had to do it throughout his career as well. Also, Jon did not single-handedly bring a title to Durham. He was one of the consummate team players on a team full of consummate team players. The championship banner will hang from the rafters in Cameron commemorating his accomplishments and his success, but it doesn't have to be his jersey number.

[phaedrus]

Why? Even if I agree that Shelden may have been a tough case for retirement, he was a two-time National Defensive Player of the Year winner. He left Duke as the all-time leading rebounder and all-time leading shot blocker. Jon is now leaving Duke the all-time leader in...what? Heart? Leadership? Team Playerishness? Jon has some really good numbers. But not better than Gene Banks or Mark Alarie, or Jim Spanarkel.



Plenty of players have been moved from one position to another and have been asked to fill different roles as the team dynamics change from year to year or during the course of the year. Singler has had to do it throughout his career as well. Also, Jon did not single-handedly bring a title to Durham. He was one of the consummate team players on a team full of consummate team players. The championship banner will hang from the rafters in Cameron commemorating his accomplishments and his success, but it doesn't have to be his jersey number.

But see, you're considering both arguments separately without seeing that it's the two, in conjunction, that put Jon's number up there.

His stats and individual accomplishments speak for themselves. The 2000+ points, the Second-team All-America season, etc. He's in a category with the best players not to be retired: Spanarkel, Langdon, etc.

But that's only scratching the surface of Jon's career. "Consummate team player" is such an understatement. Consider his career from start to finish, and it's hard to imagine a better arc, or someone more deserving of acclaim.

It's the championship banner, and the way it was won over the course of 4 years, in addition to all those objective criteria (which are pretty remarkable in themselves).

[JohnGalt]

Why? Even if I agree that Shelden may have been a tough case for retirement, he was a two-time National Defensive Player of the Year winner. He left Duke as the all-time leading rebounder and all-time leading shot blocker. Jon is now leaving Duke the all-time leader in...what? Heart? Leadership? Team Playerishness? Jon has some really good numbers. But not better than Gene Banks or Mark Alarie, or Jim Spanarkel.

Where is it written you need to be the "all time leader" in something to have your jersey retired? There are only a few "all time leaders" in Duke history and many of those with their jerseys retired don't own a single "all time" record. I'll tell you one thing that Jon is the all-time leader in ahead of Williams, Banks, Alarie, and Spanarkel and that's championships. The purpose of Duke basketball isn't to put up big numbers, but to win championships. Gushiness aside, Jon led the team to one; the others did not. Couple that with his above average, albeit not stand-out, numbers and you he has to be let in.


Plenty of players have been moved from one position to another and have been asked to fill different roles as the team dynamics change from year to year or during the course of the year. Singler has had to do it throughout his career as well. Also, Jon did not single-handedly bring a title to Durham. He was one of the consummate team players on a team full of consummate team players. The championship banner will hang from the rafters in Cameron commemorating his accomplishments and his success, but it doesn't have to be his jersey number.

Agreed and agreed, but I would argue that few players have had as critical a move as Scheyer had. The 1 and the 5 are the critical positions for most championship teams. Without Scheyer playing as he did at the 1, Duke does not hang the banner this year.

I know everyone is emotionally charged after the win and Jon is such a likable guy (I mean Duke haters didn't even really hate him) that most think it's an argument based on the moment, but I really think the retiring of jerseys is more than just looking at a piece of paper. There are too many intangibles in basketball that need to be taken into account . If you look at raw numbers, Scheyer's numbers are better than Battier's. Does anyone really think Jon had a better career at Duke than Shane? Probably not, because they differ in what they brought to the team in terms of what cannot be expressed on the stat sheet. Jon brought a lot, Shane brought a truckload. And fortunately for us, they both brought championships.

[superdave]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NCAA_Men's_Basketball_All-Americans

He's also DPOY twice, all-time rebounder and shot-blocker.

I'm not really sure how you make this argument. But keep beating the dead horse, folks!

[PADukeMom]

This has the makings of a pretty cool t-shirt, in the hands of someone with more design skills than I have.

I should annoy my son to have a go at that. Heck $85,000 in student loans for a degree in Graphic Design should get me something other than another check to Sallie Mae.

I wouldn't have any problems if Jon goes to the rafters however if Jon goes so should Trajan.
Has Boozer been retired?

[JohnGalt]

I'm not really sure how you make this argument. But keep beating the dead horse, folks!

I'm willing to bet the decision on whether to retire his number hasn't been determined. The horse is alive and kickin', folks.

[JDev]

As I said on another board, I heard K himself address this very thing on his "Inside Duke Basketball" program. If I had enough computer savvy to get the clip from my television to computer, I would put it ip here. He said getting your jersey retired at Duke is unique and a big deal because it is harder to do here than at any other school. He detailed the criteria. The player has to have graduated from Duke. Then they need to have earned one or more of the following: national recognition (player of the year or defensive player of the year) or set a national record. All of the jerseys retired on his watch fit into that category:
Johnny Dawkins (NPOY)
Danny Ferry (NPOY)
Christian Laettner (NPOY)
Bobby Hurley (All-time assists leader)
Grant Hill (NDPOY)
Shane Battier (NPOY, 3x NDPOY)
Jason Williams (2x NPOY)
J.J. Redick (NPOY)
Shelden Williams (2x NDPOY)

Jon had a wonderful career at Duke, capped by consecutive ACC Championships and an NCAA Championship, but he does not meet the criteria that K discussed. That fourth banner hanging up in the rafters will be all the rememberance he and his senior class will need. Everytime I see it I will think of him and that group and all they accomplished. He is a Duke great, but he will not see his number in the rafters. That doesn't take away from him as a player and all he accomplished.
I know some will say that the criteria is loose, and more general guidelines, and that may very well be the case. I do know what K said, and I do know that it applies to all the numbers he has seen retired.

[Jumbo]

Why? Even if I agree that Shelden may have been a tough case for retirement, he was a two-time National Defensive Player of the Year winner. He left Duke as the all-time leading rebounder and all-time leading shot blocker. Jon is now leaving Duke the all-time leader in...what? Heart? Leadership? Team Playerishness? Jon has some really good numbers. But not better than Gene Banks or Mark Alarie, or Jim Spanarkel.



Plenty of players have been moved from one position to another and have been asked to fill different roles as the team dynamics change from year to year or during the course of the year. Singler has had to do it throughout his career as well. Also, Jon did not single-handedly bring a title to Durham. He was one of the consummate team players on a team full of consummate team players. The championship banner will hang from the rafters in Cameron commemorating his accomplishments and his success, but it doesn't have to be his jersey number.

Good to see you posting again. But your reliance on numbers is misguided, your comparisons are not apt and your understanding of the subtleties of the way Scheyer impacted a game during his career are missing. None of the players you mentioned sacrificed as much of their game over the course of their careers purely for the good of the team as Scheyer. He was the best player on this year's team, and I can make a darn good argument (with the help of my trusty friend, plus/minus) that he was the best player last year, too. And maybe even the year before that.

How do you measure a wing defender who doesn't let a great shooter touch the ball (which was what Scheyer did to Ellington for three years) with numbers? How do you measure a guy who occupies defenders to create space for his teammates to drive, or who makes the pass that leads to the pass that leads to the basket with assists? How do you even begin to use rebounds as a measuring stick for a guy who is 6'5"? None of the guys you mentioned did as many things as well as Scheyer. All of them played with better teammates and yet were also featured in scoring roles more often than Scheyer, who had to give up much of his scoring role -- again -- for the good of the team. And the fact that this team won a national title DOES matter, largely because Scheyer was absolutley the driving force behind it, the guy who made all the other pieces fit and kept changing his game accordingly to make everything work and whose will -- beginning in the summer, when things looked bleak -- took hold and urged this team on. We'll all agree that Duke has had many other teams with better overall talent than this one that didn't win it all. Those teams didn't have Scheyer. That's the difference.

[Jumbo]

I should annoy my son to have a go at that. Heck $85,000 in student loans for a degree in Graphic Design should get me something other than another check to Sallie Mae.

I wouldn't have any problems if Jon goes to the rafters however if Jon goes so should Trajan.
Has Boozer been retired?

Why is Trajan even in this conversation? He did one thing extremely well -- he was a terrific shooter. Jon Scheyer was far superior in every basketball skill AND made many, many more intangible impacts on his team. I loved Trajan, but he's not even in my top 5 of "unretired All-Stars" in Duke history.

[Jumbo]

I've read all the comments in this thread and respect those who disagree. Lord knows we've had some silly jersey retirement arguments before (people brought up everyone from Wojo to Daniel Ewing -- even Duhon wasn't worthy of a serious discussion), but this one is legit. Jon Scheyer has an incredible case to be up there in the rafters. And I think Coach K knows it.

Think, again, about all the different things he's had to do since his freshman year, all the curveballs that have been thrown his way, and not just the way he held the team together, but the way he continued to improve and win games in a variety of ways.

Here's another thought exercise: If Coach K hadn't been so loyal to Paulus and made the logical move when Scheyer was a sophomore -- put Scheyer at the point, move Paulus to the bench, let DeMarcus Nelson gaurd the ball -- how much more would he have accomplished? Granted, that "what if" really can't be part of the criteria for retiring a jersey, but it sure is interesting to consider.

Scheyer was a truly great player at Duke. Not good. Great. And great in a way that, as some people have mentioned, was too subtle for some of the idiots who hand out national awards, which is why they shouldn't be playing any part in deciding who Duke does, or doesn't, put in the rafters.

Think about how you'd feel if Seth Curry is running around in #30 next year, or if someone else is three years from now. Think of all the ways this guy helped the program, of where the team was when he inherited it, of how he basically had to function as the team's leader as a freshman, and where he took it and the shape he's leaving it in. He didn't just make the program better; he made other players better. Nolan Smith would not be the player he is today if not for Jon Scheyer, and Nolan Smith would not have the season I expect from him -- nor display the leadership I expect to see from him and for him to pass down to the next guy -- had he not played with Jon Scheyer. His belief and leadership is measurable -- it's measurable in the influence he's had on everyone around him.

In just about every debate we've had about a borderline player, I've sided with not retiring the number. I couldn't feel stronger about the fact that Scheyer has earned this honor, and that his accomplishments have nothing to do with those of Bob Verga, Mark Alarie, Gene Banks or anyone else anyone wants to mention.

Anyone know how to start one of those online petitions? Because I'd sign it. And I bet a ton of other people would, too.

[ACCBBallFan]

After he graduates, the only criteria Jon falls short on is some sort of national recognition.

Singler falls well short too, nowhere near top 10 all time at Duke in anything other than the new stats Offensive and Defensive rebounding and 3 pt attempts unless he returns a fourth season. I started a thread on this a couple days ago. With the NCAA Most Outstanding Player and after graduation, with comparable stats to this year or to his 3 year average, Singler would then earn this very elusive distinction. Of course he could remove all doubt with NPOY.

I think that may weigh into his decision, something millions of $$ a year earlier cannot buy.

[Wander]

He was the best player on this year's team

Don't get me wrong, I won't be complaining if Duke decides to retire Scheyer's jersey - national championships are the ultimate argument as far as I'm concerned. But by the end of the season, Singler was definitely the best basketball player at Duke. For sure. That said, our other title teams had at least two jersey retirements, and Singler, Scheyer, and Smith were all ABOUT equal, so... how do feel about doing the triplet, assuming that Smith and Singler return and perform at a level we can realistically expect of them (say, both first team ACC and some level of national recognition)?



Singler falls well short too


I think I agree. But if Singler returns for his senior year, I think he's realistically a lock. Being the best player on a national title team while staying for four years and graduating should be an absolute lock for jersey retirement, no matter what else happens.

[Spam Filter]

I have to agree with Jumbo on this one.

You cannot evaluate a player purely based on number's or awards. They are helpful, but they should not be the only factors.

I've always felt that Jon Scheyer is a great player, I was probably one of the first person on this board to advocate moving him to the PG position (early in the 2009 season when the main debate was whether it should be Great Paulus or Nolan Smith) because it was clear to me that Scheyer, despite not being a pure PG, could do a better job than either due to his steady ball handling and his basketball smarts.

If I had to make a All-Basketball IQ team of players under Coach K, I think the only 2 players I would put on that team without hesitation would be Shane Battier and Jon Scheyer, the other 3 I would have to think about for a bit, but those 2 stand out as head and shoulder above everyone else as the 2 smartest players ever to play for Coach K, they have a knack for making the right decision and avoiding mistakes that help their team win that often don't show up in box scores.

You can argue that another player who put up the same statistics as Jon Scheyer would not warrant having his number retired, and I might even agree with you. But Jon Scheyer the player was far more than just the statistics Jon Scheyer put up. We aren't retiring his statistics, we are retiring Jon Scheyer the player, and Jon Scheyer the player is one of the best all time basketball players to play for Duke.

[brevity]

Title: Shelden's credentials exceed Jon's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NCAA_Men's_Basketball_All-Americans

He's also DPOY twice, all-time rebounder and shot-blocker.

I'm not really sure how you make this argument. But keep beating the dead horse, folks!


I'm willing to bet the decision on whether to retire his number hasn't been determined. The horse is alive and kickin', folks.

Please read more closely. superdave's post chastises those who want to revisit Shelden's jersey retirement. Not really sure why you chose to quote the last line out of context.

[Cockabeau]

I think consistency and statistics determine retirement of jersey.
I agree with a previous poster though, how the heck did Duhon and Tragdon get thrown in this discussion? Its almost a slap in the face to great players like Ferry, Hill, Laettner,Etc.

You have to be GREAT to have your jersey retired. Jon was a brilliant player from his freshmen year and had one truly excellent senior. 3 solid years + 1 superb year does not equal this prestigious honor.

[Kim*]

Has Boozer been retired?

Well his number is surely hanging in the rafters. Just not with his name on it. ;)

[JohnGalt]

Please read more closely. superdave's post chastises those who want to revisit Shelden's jersey retirement. Not really sure why you chose to quote the last line out of context.

I suggested Jon and Shelden are equally deserving of the honor. Superdave argued against it citing a few stats then followed with "I'm not really sure how you make this argument. But keep beating the dead horse, folks!" I interpreted this as meaning he thinks Jon's credentials do not exceed Shelden's, thereby insinuating his number shouldn't be retired.

How am I out of context?

[JohnGalt]

Trivialities aside, his number should be retired for playing an instrumental role in a championship season in conjunction with his overall statistical accomplishments.

[Jumbo]

But by the end of the season, Singler was definitely the best basketball player at Duke. For sure.

I will respectfully disagree. Scheyer had a shooting slump late in the season and I won't ignore that. But once he got his shot back when it mattered most, he was again the best player on Duke's team, in my mind, doing far more things to influence the game in many more ways. He controlled the game; that's something your best player does.

Meanwhile, seriously, does anyone know how to start one of those online petitions? I'm ready to go grassroots with this stuff.

[phaedrus]

Meanwhile, seriously, does anyone know how to start one of those online petitions? I'm ready to go grassroots with this stuff.

Create a facebook page. Of course, then you'll be exposed as Scheyer's dad.

[tele]

Don't get me wrong, I won't be complaining if Duke decides to retire Scheyer's jersey - national championships are the ultimate argument as far as I'm concerned. But by the end of the season, Singler was definitely the best basketball player at Duke. For sure. That said, our other title teams had at least two jersey retirements, and Singler, Scheyer, and Smith were all ABOUT equal, so... how do feel about doing the triplet, assuming that Smith and Singler return and perform at a level we can realistically expect of them (say, both first team ACC and some level of national recognition)?


.

I agree that Singler was the best player on this year's Duke team. I thought so all year. Opposing teams were focusing their defenses on stopping Singler and the other players on the team benefited. Kyle also had to switch positions this year and still was able to score and rebound well from the perimeter.

Scheyer had a fine career and his helping to play the point on offense filled a key need on the team. I'm not sure if this would have worked out so well, if at all, without Nolan to defend the opposing team's point guard and help handle the ball on offense against pressure.

They were called the big three all season for a reason, so if one jersey goes up in the rafters, then maybe all three should go up.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

As I said on another board, I heard K himself address this very thing on his "Inside Duke Basketball" program. If I had enough computer savvy to get the clip from my television to computer, I would put it ip here. He said getting your jersey retired at Duke is unique and a big deal because it is harder to do here than at any other school. He detailed the criteria. The player has to have graduated from Duke. Then they need to have earned one or more of the following: national recognition (player of the year or defensive player of the year) or set a national record. All of the jerseys retired on his watch fit into that category:
Johnny Dawkins (NPOY)
Danny Ferry (NPOY)
Christian Laettner (NPOY)
Bobby Hurley (All-time assists leader)
Grant Hill (NDPOY)
Shane Battier (NPOY, 3x NDPOY)
Jason Williams (2x NPOY)
J.J. Redick (NPOY)
Shelden Williams (2x NDPOY)



Jeff Mullins didn't meet that criteria. He played in two Final Fours (1963 & 1964), but no championships and not a consensus first-team All-American. He didn't play for Coach K, but his jersey was retired in 1994, which was on Coach K's "watch."

[devildeac]

Forgot steals!!

PS: Some young man named JJ;)

[corbinhill]

I guess ill throw my two cents in.
Im not going to question if Duke does retire the #30 or does not retire it. I think there is a valid argument either way. My suggestion would be instead of his jersey retirement would be naming an award after him ex. The Jon Scheyer Senior Leadership award. Giving it to the Senior leader of the Duke team. IMO I Think the jersey should go up there, but if it doesnt then I understand why.

[basket1544]

I can argue with myself on this for hours. Do I want to see Seth in #30 next year? Not really. It's Jon's jersey but then again I say the same thing when I see Miles in Trajan's jersey.
Does Jon's jersey belong beside #31, 32 and 33? Not really. He is one of the greatest in alot of categories but isn't the greatest at any of them.
A team won this championship and they will be rewarded by the Championship Banner being raised.
Having said that, I can see the argument for Kyle if he comes back next year (If he scores the same amount of points as he did this year, he'll finish with Laettner-like points for example).

[Wander]

I will respectfully disagree. Scheyer had a shooting slump late in the season and I won't ignore that. But once he got his shot back when it mattered most, he was again the best player on Duke's team, in my mind, doing far more things to influence the game in many more ways. He controlled the game; that's something your best player does.

I can accept reasonable disagreement because I think we'd both agree that the margin between the two isn't very much and we obviously don't win the title without either playing well overall in March. But there is a reason that Singler or Nolan were recognized as the most outstanding player in each of the four postseason mini-tournaments (OK, to be honest, I have no idea if the Jacksonville rounds recognize an all-Jacksonville subregional team, but if they did, I'm sure they picked Singler or Nolan as the MVP there).

But I agree with you that Scheyer was the best player on the season overall. I can go either way with his jersey retirement, while leaning toward supporting it.

Either way, it's certainly better to be arguing about who was the best player on our national championship team than about why we got crushed by Villanova. :)

[VaDukie]

I think Jumbo may have changed my mind with the observation "How would you feel seeing someone else wear #30?" It's not a very objective measurement, but to me #30 will always be Jon Scheyer. Hang it up.

[SoCalDukeFan]

but not quite up to the level of jersey retirement.

He really does not have the individual numbers. He was obviously a major contributor to the NC and we could not have won it without his brilliance as over being forced to be the primary ball handler. But more than any other this was a TEAM win.

I will always remember his play.

I won't be upset if the powers at be decide to retire #30 but don't thinik it is the right decision.

SoCal

[Dev11]

I think Jumbo may have changed my mind with the observation "How would you feel seeing someone else wear #30?" It's not a very objective measurement, but to me #30 will always be Jon Scheyer. Hang it up.

I don't like this argument, because when guys like Duhon and Wojo retired, could you have imagined anybody wearing #12 or #21 again? No, and yet we see those numbers on the team now. Heck, Wojo met the two hard criteria, and his number may well be retired next year with somebody else's name on it (hopefully we're having that discussion next year). Right now, sure, Jon is #30, but we will likely see it on somebody else next year, and though he was the senior point guard on a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP team (I can't help but all caps it, its still too exciting), he hasn't made the career long impact that the retired jerseys, at least in the K era, made in their time.

I'd say its an interesting and fitting phenomenon that nobody on this 'overachieving' NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP (there it is again!) team could get their jersey retired.

[Devilsfan]

Yes I could on the other two, but Scheyer is #30! They won it all against all experts beliefs. Jon led them on their remarkable journey. Retire his Jersey now!

[ACCBBallFan]

I think I agree. But if Singler returns for his senior year, I think he's realistically a lock. Being the best player on a national title team while staying for four years and graduating should be an absolute lock for jersey retirement, no matter what else happens.

No doubt if Singler returns and plays anywhere his three year average or this past season stats, he's a lock. With a true PG and NdotSmitty, plus Curry and Dawkins along side him, should not be a problem to replicate those stats.

In that regard, he could potentially be, with same stats as this year:

#1 in Duke history in Games played, Games started and minutes played,

#2 in FG Attempts,

#3 in Offensive Rebounds,

# 3-4 in points scored,

#5 in FG Made,

#6 in Defensive Rebounds,

#7 in FT attempts,

#8 in FT Made,

and also be a senior captain along with Nolan Smith.

[Jumbo]

With a true PG ...

It's simply staggering that anyone could type that phrase after what Scheyer did this year. Amazing. Some people will never learn, I suppose.

[Indoor66]

It's simply staggering that anyone could type that phrase after what Scheyer did this year. Amazing. Some people will never learn, I suppose.

You know, Jumbo. You have to pass the eye test. :confused:

[COYS]

I can accept reasonable disagreement because I think we'd both agree that the margin between the two isn't very much and we obviously don't win the title without either playing well overall in March. But there is a reason that Singler or Nolan were recognized as the most outstanding player in each of the four postseason mini-tournaments (OK, to be honest, I have no idea if the Jacksonville rounds recognize an all-Jacksonville subregional team, but if they did, I'm sure they picked Singler or Nolan as the MVP there).

But I agree with you that Scheyer was the best player on the season overall. I can go either way with his jersey retirement, while leaning toward supporting it.

Either way, it's certainly better to be arguing about who was the best player on our national championship team than about why we got crushed by Villanova. :)

The statistics for Jon and Kyle, in my opinion, point to Jon being the better player even if, by the end of the season, Kyle was draining some really pretty shots and otherwise playing out of his mind. The fact that Kyle started playing so well is the reason that Jon didn't have to be the scorer he was earlier in the year (yet he still scored a ton of points in the tourney). Jon's lowest offensive rating for his entire career was 116.7 (according to Kenpom), Jon's freshman year, which his higher than Singler's this season (116.2). His offensive rating of 127 for this season was top ten in the nation. This is with Jon being the primary ball handler, the guy who sets up the offense, gets the ball where it needs to go, etc. Why did Singler start getting such good looks off of curls closer to the hoop? Jon set them up. What helped this years team achieve highest adjusted offensive efficiency in the land? Jon's efficiency. Why did we beat Baylor even though Kyle played one of his worst offensive games in a Duke uniform? Smith certainly scored the points we needed, but Jon navigated the team through a fearce and aggressive Baylor defense whose bountiful "athletes" were supposed to chew us up. He may not pass the eye test, but the efficiency stats, the raw numbers, the assists, the few turnovers, and the stewardship of the offense makes Jon the best offensive player on the team this season. And this doesn't even count defense, where Jon is consistently underrated.

[tele]

He may not pass the eye test,.

Eye test? Do you mean starting the offense from the wing?

[Wander]

The statistics for Jon and Kyle, in my opinion, point to Jon being the better player even if, by the end of the season, Kyle was draining some really pretty shots and otherwise playing out of his mind.

He may not pass the eye test, but the efficiency stats, the raw numbers, the assists, the few turnovers, and the stewardship of the offense makes Jon the best offensive player on the team this season. And this doesn't even count defense, where Jon is consistently underrated.

First of all, if Scheyer doesn't pass someone's eye test, the problem is with their eyes, and not with Scheyer.

The statistics you're using are season-long ones, and I've admitted that Scheyer was Duke's best player when looking at the season as a whole. But in the nine postseason games, Singler actually not only scored more but also scored more efficiently.

And, yes, Scheyer is a pretty good defender - but Singler is a little better.

[SoCalDukeFan]

to figure out a way to honor the TEAM as opposed to just Jon.

Maybe a special banner with the senior starter numbers. Don't retire the numbers but don't ever forget who wore them.

Obviously we don't win the NC (and probably not the ACC regular season or tournament) without Jon's great play. But what set this team apart from last year's was the improved play of a healthy Zoubek. And Lance Thomas gave it up for the team for 4 years.

Of course Nolan's improved production was vital and Kyle was probably the best player on the team. And we needed the Plumlee's. etc etc etc

SoCal

[gumbomoop]

He may not pass the eye test, but the efficiency stats, the raw numbers, the assists, the few turnovers, and the stewardship of the offense makes Jon the best offensive player on the team this season. And this doesn't even count defense, where Jon is consistently underrated.

I think the "eye test" standard, raised by several posters who vote No on retire Scheyer, is a legitimate one. Though I haven't quoted COYS's entire post, COYS votes Yes, and the last part of the quote tag summarizes why.

But I want to try to convince No's, and even Yes's who grant that JS "may not pass the eye test," that JS does pass it.

In general, the eye test seems to refer to an intuitive judgment based on what the eye sees. The problem is, JS's brilliance isn't nearly as easy to see, in the usual sense of that word, as, say, that of Grant, JJ, Christian. Now, we come closer to a fair comparison when we talk Shane; and it's significant that those who for a year or two have been singing JS's praise, have compared him somewhat to Shane, especially in terms of bb IQ, court sense, intangibles.

My argument is that JS's bb IQ, court sense, and intangibles are attributes that make him tangibly a superior player, one who does meet the eye test. He doesn't [I]look [normal eye test] physically gifted, but [more subtle eye test] he is. Routinely he makes astounding physical plays, especially hustle blocks-from-behind [remember, real recently?], hang-time-off-hand-reverse-spin-weird-angle-in-the-lane-bank-shots [remember?], passing-lane-steals [remember?], near-lock-down-defense on opponents' go-to-guy [remember?]. I know you remember jumping-over-bench-behind-the-back-down-actually-up-court-miracle pass v. Texas last year.

In short [not my strength], JS's athleticism is subtle, not obvious. But oh so real. And by definition, bb IQ, court sense, and intangibles, however incredible, aren't so easy to see, normally, and thus don't play into the normal eye test. But JS is such a different player that the normal eye test is insufficient. I am quite aware of the intuitive criteria that goes, "If it isn't obvious, then it's a No." But this intuitive test is too simplistic. [Did Wojo meet the eye test as a big-time PG? Did Laettner meet the eye test as a 3-pt-bomber?] And, irony of ironies, this intuitive standard fails to recognize JS's intuitive brilliance.

So, by all means administer the eye test. But administer it with intelligent sophistication.

P.S. - Thanks for this thread, and lots of good arguments, pro and con. It's all forced me to figure out why I've joined the Cult of Jon.

[CDu]

to figure out a way to honor the TEAM as opposed to just Jon.

Isn't that what the national championship banner will be?

[uh_no]

Easy, yes or no....obviously its been argued to death, but what is the overall distro?

[DevilDawg]

Good to see you posting again. But your reliance on numbers is misguided, your comparisons are not apt and your understanding of the subtleties of the way Scheyer impacted a game during his career are missing. None of the players you mentioned sacrificed as much of their game over the course of their careers purely for the good of the team as Scheyer. He was the best player on this year's team, and I can make a darn good argument (with the help of my trusty friend, plus/minus) that he was the best player last year, too. And maybe even the year before that.

I respect your point of view regarding Scheyer, but the condescension you present in paragraph is unnecessary. I am neither suggesting that Scheyer is anything less than a phenomenal player, nor am I relying solely on stats for my opinion. I watched Jon play and mature from his freshmen year through this senior season. I take some amount of umbrage in your position that my opinion is misguided and my understanding of his game is missing. My opinion is my own and I can use or discount any information at my choosing. That being said, I may not have written about the "subtleties" of Scheyer's game, but please don't suggest that I fail to consider anything outside of stats when I question the possibility of retiring his jersey. I have watched him mature into a better offensive and defensive player, seem him move and adapt to changing roles over the course of his career, watched his grit, determination, and leadership help his teams over and over again, and I respect him for his hard wark and dedication to becoming a better player. I just presented the stats to demonstrate how Jon is just shy of the Duke "greats" that have had their jersey retired and in the company of some other fantastic players that don't have their numbers retired.

I guess my perspective is this: Based on watching Scheyer play for the last four years and knowing how much he has grown as a leader and player, I see him as being just at the cusp of being great enough to have his number retired. And then when I look at his stats, I realize that he lies squarely in the category of Duke players that were great but just shy of those players who were the greatest in school history. So that is where I stand.

I think what makes this discussion that everyone agrees that Scheyer is a great player, the argument concerns determining how great Jon Scheyer is in school history. I respect and understand the arguments for his inclusion, but I can just as easily see the arguments against retiring his number. I would not grouse over his inclusion or consider it unwarranted, and I would be happy for Scheyer. I just think he is just shy of such an accolade.

[superdave]

Wow. I cant believe I voted no. I sort of didnt think Shelden got over the hump either. I loved watching Scheyer for 4 years get better and better. But I just could not get to yes.

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

Wow. I cant believe I voted no. I sort of didnt think Shelden got over the hump either. I loved watching Scheyer for 4 years get better and better. But I just could not get to yes.

I say yes because Scheyer stated in the first Duke Blue Planet Magazine, at the beginning of the season, that he wanted to win the ACC regular season, ACC Tournament and a National Title. He stated he often dreamt of this and would go down fighting to do so. He also stated he felt Duke would have a really good team. Little did we know this good. I really do feel Scheyer was a key catalyst in Duke's success. He was a terrific leader and floor general.

[Turtleboy]

Not until Mark Alarie's is retired.

[DukeGirl4ever]

Jon Scheyer ranks in my Top 5 Duke players of all-time. However, I voted no because his numbers just didn't stand out as shocking.

He was one of the greatest team players this University has ever seen....and he will be hanging in the rafters with the National Championship banner...that's exactly where he belongs...a GREAT member of a GREAT team.

And, I keep thinking what numbers will be left to wear over the next couple of years....haha. We have so many jerseys retired (but deservedly so).

[ivydevil]

I voted yes just because Jon is a special special player. Regardless of the outcome, I think we might see #30 in the rafters by the time Seth Curry is done with it. (Transfers can be retired, right?) In my heart, Scheyer's name will always be on that jersey. :)

[The Gordog]

The supreme honor of jersey retirement should be reserved for players who, in addition to making indelible contributions to Duke basketball, could also stake a plausible claim to being the best or most important player in college basketball at some point during their career. I love Jon Scheyer, but I just don't think you can say that about him.

When he was running an A/T ration of 5 and we kept winning in spite of no inside presence I think he was the best player in college basketball. It was widely acknowleged that if finished with numbers like that he would be 1st team AA.


Earlier in the year, there was a discussion about who was a better PG, John Wall or Mr. Scheyer. Staistically they were pretty close, with maybe a slight edge to Wall. Mr. Jason Evans (I believe) made the astute observation that, (paraphrasing) "the only way you can argue that Wall is better than Scheyer is if you ignore turnovers and defense". I think that this statement gets to the heart of the Scheyer Dilemma. He is really good at everything but not dominant at anything, and in my opinion, that is by choice. I believe that Jon could have easily averaged around 25ppg and gotten more ooohs and ahhhhs if he had made that his goal, but he made winning a championship his goal and he knew that if he went for personal glory the team would suffer.
If Jon had averaged ~25ppg he may very well have been an AA and ACC POY, but Duke probably wouldn't have won the title. In that situation, does he then become more deserving of jersey retirement b/c he won national accolades but not the title? Does Duke University value personal sacrifice for group achievement? I know Coach K does.

Nobody scores 25 ppg easily.


Right now, in the afterglow of winning the N-C, there will be a big push to do it. However, we should note that even though they did win it, Scheyer was not even finals MVP. In 2001, Shane Battier personally took the game over down the stretch to win it, as NPOY. That's why his jersey is in the rafters, (among other reasons). Once everyone settles down a bit and compares Scheyer's career with Gene Banks, Mark Alarie, Jim Spanarkel, Bob Verga, Jack Marin, and most appropriately, Trajan Langdon, I think folks will agree he was not a better player than most of them. Consequently, I don't see it happening; or if it does, all of them deserve it too.

I think this is a strong point but none of them won a title.

I would not be surprised if he does get it retired. In fact, I would be happy, but I think the odds are slightly against it.

[brody]

I'm all for Jon's jersey getting retired, but I'm puzzled that he was ever allowed to wear 30 in the first place. What about Tony Moore?

[Spy]

I voted yes just because Jon is a special special player. Regardless of the outcome, I think we might see #30 in the rafters by the time Seth Curry is done with it. (Transfers can be retired, right?) In my heart, Scheyer's name will always be on that jersey.

I voted no. I want to say yes, but I couldn't bring myself to vote yes. And isn't Seth Curry going to wear #3?

[WordLife565]

If we honored players like Carolina, then he definitely would be up in the rafters as an honored jersey

but retired? nah.

In my eyes, you need to win one of the POTY awards or Defensive POTY awards or at least break some type of NCAA record.

[ivydevil]

I voted no. I want to say yes, but I couldn't bring myself to vote yes. And isn't Seth Curry going to wear #3?

He wore 3 this year, but he was 30 at Liberty. (Stephan was also 30.) Not sure, but he'll probably go with 30 next year.

[WordLife565]

He wore 3 this year, but he was 30 at Liberty. (Stephan was also 30.) Not sure, but he'll probably go with 30 next year.

Stephen* just to clear it up. Man I can't wait for Curry to play, I used to go to Davidson Basketball camp with him, and boy can he shoot the rock.

[CDu]

I respect your point of view regarding Scheyer, but the condescension you present in paragraph is unnecessary.

...

I think what makes this discussion that everyone agrees that Scheyer is a great player, the argument concerns determining how great Jon Scheyer is in school history. I respect and understand the arguments for his inclusion, but I can just as easily see the arguments against retiring his number. I would not grouse over his inclusion or consider it unwarranted, and I would be happy for Scheyer. I just think he is just shy of such an accolade.

I think the issue is that so much of the argument for Scheyer's inclusion is based on his team's national success in one year and individual intangibles.
Based on individual honors, Scheyer doesn't match up well with many/most of the players retired. In fact, he matches up much moreso with the players who are honored rather than retired. As such, I completely agree that deriding anybody's OPINION over whether Scheyer should have his jersey retired is unnecessary (and pointless).

We all place differing weights on the team component and the intangibles component. Placing a different weight on the intangibles/team components doesn't mean you don't understand/appreciate what Scheyer did at Duke.

I personally don't think his jersey should be retired. But I very much appreciate all that he did for the school, and I'm very very glad we got him for four years. I certainly won't be shocked or offended if he does get the honor, and I can certainly respect an opposing viewpoint on this issue.

[Devilsfan]

Seems like there is lots of jealousy here too. Jon led us to a NC. We only have four in all the great years of Duke Basketball. I say hang his jersey from the rafters Coach K. Without Jon you would still have three banners.

[M B Walker]

Jon led us to a NC. We only have four in all the great years of Duke Basketball. I say hang his jersey from the rafters Coach K. Without Jon you would still have three banners.

Don't understand the logic here. So Zoubek should get his jersey retired, too? After all, didn't Coach K say he was the difference maker during the post-game press conference?

Or how about Lance? He was co-team leader, so you could argue he led us to the the championship.

Based on individual stats, none of these three players deserve to have their jerseys retired. Put Scheyer in the Hall of Honor -- in no way does that short change his contributions to the basketball program, but he just doesn't have the stats to have his jersey retired.

[Jumbo]

Don't understand the logic here. So Zoubek should get his jersey retired, too? After all, didn't Coach K say he was the difference maker during the post-game press conference?

Or how about Lance? He was co-team leader, so you could argue he led us to the the championship.

Based on individual stats, none of these three players deserve to have their jerseys retired. Put Scheyer in the Hall of Honor -- in no way does that short change his contributions to the basketball program, but he just doesn't have the stats to have his jersey retired.

No, it doesn't mean Zoubek nor Thomas should be in the discussion, because neither was remotely close to being as good a player as Scheyer. The point is that Scheyer was a great player AND won a national title, which only enhances his greatness.

This isn't baseball. Statistics are important in basketball (and I certainly quote them a lot), but they tell far too little of the story to be held in such esteem. Whether it's the assist -- which often reflects the fact that one guy has the ball all the time, rather than passing ability -- or steals and blocks, which only measure a tiny portion of defensive ability, basketball statistics leave a lot to be desired. Scheyer's contibutions simply cannot be accurately reflected through stats, although next-level stats like ORtg help. They are a crutch, although even using that crutch, what Scheyer did in 4 years, stat-wise, is pretty damn remarkable. (BTW, how about this one -- he had all of 3 more turnovers than STEALS in his career!)

Basically the only arguments against Scheyer that I've seen are either based on a flawed statistical ranking system (how can you compare guys with different roles in different eras in points, for instance, when they are being asked to do totaly different things) or subjective votes by people who watched Scheyer even less than we did (those who vote for national awards).

I have said for four years that Scheyer is as underrated a player as I've ever seen at Duke. This thread is only enhancing my viewpoint.

[gvtucker]

Basically the only arguments against Scheyer that I've seen are either based on a flawed statistical ranking system (how can you compare guys with different roles in different eras in points, for instance, when they are being asked to do totaly different things) or subjective votes by people who watched Scheyer even less than we did (those who vote for national awards).

Your argument sounds pretty subjective to me. And the subjective opinion of the folks on this website is that he shouldn't have his jersey retired, by a 2 to 1 margin. And I think most of the folks at DBR watched Scheyer a great deal.

[Wander]

Basically the only arguments against Scheyer that I've seen are either based on a flawed statistical ranking system (how can you compare guys with different roles in different eras in points, for instance, when they are being asked to do totaly different things) or subjective votes by people who watched Scheyer even less than we did (those who vote for national awards).


There's simply no way you can rationally think that he's so much of a lock for jersey retirement that everyone who disagrees with you must be flawed in their opinion.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Isn't that what the national championship banner will be?

When I think of the 91/92 team I think of the great players - Laettner, Hurley, Hill. When I think of the of the 2001 team I think of Battier and Williams. All have their jerseys retired.

My guess is that 10 or years from now, when I think of the 2010 team, I will think of the great team. Trying to think of some way to recognize that as well as the banner.

SoCal

[CDu]

Your argument sounds pretty subjective to me. And the subjective opinion of the folks on this website is that he shouldn't have his jersey retired, by a 2 to 1 margin. And I think most of the folks at DBR watched Scheyer a great deal.

Ah, but the vote just further proves the empirical fact that people underrate Scheyer! ;)

Just kidding. You're right though - the entire debate is subjective. As such, there's no proving anybody right or wrong. Ultimately, people will base their opinions on some sort of subjective, intangible belief. And those on the other side of the argument will say "that's a flimsy, subjective argument."

[tallguy]

Basically the only arguments against Scheyer that I've seen are either based on a flawed statistical ranking system (how can you compare guys with different roles in different eras in points, for instance, when they are being asked to do totaly different things) or subjective votes by people who watched Scheyer even less than we did (those who vote for national awards).

How about this: a very strong argument can be made that he wasn't even the second best player on the team his senior year. Singler and Smith both played a greater role on the defensive end, and were just as vital on the offensive end of the court. I don't think it's even debatable that both Nolan and Kyle played at a higher level than Jon did in the NCAA tournament. So explain to me how winning a national championship puts Jon over the hump in terms of jersey retirement so to speak, when he wasn't even the key player of our NCAA run?

It's the same "RIINNGGS" argument that people make when they argue that Roelisberger is better than Peyton Manning. Would you be making the argument for Scheyer's retirement without this title? No. Was Scheyer the best or 2nd best player on the team for the title run? No. Does Scheyer have the requisite awards/stats (rightly or wrongly, those flawed stats/awards do matter) to justify his jersey retirement? No. So explain to me how a title run in which he took the backseat to two other people should push him into rarefied air?

As a huge fan of tempo free statistics, I love Scheyer's game. His combination of minutes played and offensive rating will probably never be replicated. However, part of the reason he was so efficient was due to the fact that he wasn't the focus of the opposing team's defense. He rarely drew the other team's best defender, and wasn't schemed against. So to counter the intangibles people are citing in favor, I will throw out this intangible: if a player isn't feared by opposing teams, is he really worthy of jersey retirement?

Disclaimer: in no way am I suggesting that Scheyer wasn't a key contributor to Duke's run to the championship. He was, and there wouldn't be a banner if he hadn't been there.

[OldPhiKap]

I haven't read the whole thread, and am jumping in late. So please excuse this if this is already covered:

1. I always thought that the university's criteria was that the person was at least a first-team All-American. There is some pre-existing criteria that he either meets or doesn't. Per Wikipedia, FWIW: " To be eligible to receive this honor at Duke, a player must graduate from Duke University and also be recognized at the national level (such as be named National Player of the Year or Defensive Player of the Year, set an NCAA record, or be named as an All-American)."

2. I love Jon's game and think he is one of the toughest players we have ever had. But has he meant more to Duke than say Trajan, Billy King (national defensive player of the year), Amaker (ditto), Wojo (ditto), Carowell (general bad@#$), Nate (ditto), etc.?

3. NO ONE'S JERSEY SHOULD BE RETIRED UNTIL MARK ALARIE'S JERSEY IS RETIRED FIRST.

4. See Point 3, which bears repeating.

5. Who is the MVP of this year's team? I can't pick one. (And, if forced to say who made the difference between Champs and falling short, I would almost have to say Zoubek although again the beauty of this team is that they cared more about the wins than the personal accolades).