The FSU penalty

[Olympic Fan]

I'm not the biggest Bobby Bowden fan, but I think the guy is getting screwed by a typically inconsistent NCAA enforcement policy.

We've all been hearing and reading about FSU's penalty being confirmed in the last day or so. While the school accepted certain scholarship restrictions for clear academic violations, they appealed the ruling that 14 football wins be vacated and that those wins would be removed from Bobby Bowden's career record. At the time the ruling was first made, Bowden was neck and neck with Paterno for the all-time wins record.

As it turns out, he's retiring five wins -- or 19 wins, depending on the NCAA ruling -- behind Paterno. He's second all-time, no matter how the ruling goes.

Still, there is the principle of the thing. The NCAA has vacated team wins in the past, but I know of no case in history where a coaches' win total was docked -- even when he was directly involved in the violations (and in this case, the NCAA has never alledged that Bowden was involved or even aware of the academic cheating scandal that involved players from six FSU sports).

Look at John Calipari's record, and he's still credited for every one of his (vacated) wins at UMass and Memphis. Larry Brown's college record includes his (vacated) wins at UCLA and Kansas. Steve Fisher's record includes seven vacated wins from his days at Michigan.

Actually, I don't know what "vacated" actually means ... even in a team sense. Just last week, Kentucky celebrated its 2,000th victory and got a lot of national attention. But among those 2,000 wins were two 1988 NCAA victories that were officially vacated by the NCAA.

Those ill-gotten wins count and Bowden's wins won't???

[uh_no]

I think you do misunderstand the meaning of vacated. bobby Bowdens wins don't count anymore. calipari's wins and final four don't count any more...memphis had to take the banner down. Jim Calhouns sweet 16 in 96 was vacated and doesn't count anymore.....not sure what your point is....you use ineligible players and the wins don't count...thats how it works

[CBDUKE]

If you look at Calipari's wins, I think you will see that his wins at UMass and Memphis are still being counted in "his" win total. The schools may not count them, but it seems that he still can. ???

[hurleyfor3]

Northwestern effectively vacated several players several years back who admitted to taking money from bookies to lose by more than the point spread. The players are no longer acknowledged by the athletic department in any form, as I understand. This seems far more extreme than taking away a coach's wins.

Michigan still acknowledges Chris Webber, with an asterisk. Literally. His name is shown as Chris Webber*.

[Stray Gator]

The NCAA will subtract those 14 wins from the official records for FSU and Bowden; but what I'm hearing around here--no great surprise--is that FSU fans and Bowden himself will disregard that part of the sanction when they cite the records. That's probably what Calipari does; and I suspect that the University of Kentucky, given its historic disdain for NCAA regulations, will continue to promote Calipari's "resume" as if it includes the two Final Four trips and vacated wins.

I won't deny that I am naturally biased against FSU; and I'll confess that, based on my observations at close range while living in Tallahassee through most of the Bowden era, I believe that after his first MNC in 1993 Bobby quickly changed from being a great football coach and genuinely good guy to a self-aggrandizing phony. Having said that, I respectfully but strenuously disagree with OF about the propriety of vacating those wins as a sanction. The only reason it can be said that Bobby Bowden didn't know about the academic violations is because he deliberately insulated himself from the "gory details" of what had to be done to keep his program competitive. In fact, it's an open secret, and source of humor even among FSU fans, that Bowden hasn't known the names of most of his players or taken an active role in the day-to-day running of the program for more than a decade.

If you accept the notion that this coach should not bear responsibility for the sins of his program that occurred on his watch, you only encourage other coaches to tacitly allow cheating while distancing themselves from any discernible link of responsibility. Bobby Bowden has a long history of winking at the rules and trying to help violators in his program evade punishment. Of all the coaches who have benefited unfairly from violations of the rules, he is among the least deserving of sympathy for these consequences, IMO.

[Olympic Fan]

I think you do misunderstand the meaning of vacated. bobby Bowdens wins don't count anymore. calipari's wins and final four don't count any more...memphis had to take the banner down. Jim Calhouns sweet 16 in 96 was vacated and doesn't count anymore.....not sure what your point is....you use ineligible players and the wins don't count...thats how it works

I agree that I am confused about the term "vacated" -- I quite understand that SCHOOLS have had titles and victories vacated -- although in Kentucky's case, the two vacated wins they had in 1988 were counted toward the 2,000 win total they celebrated last week. So what does vacated mean?

My point is that while the NCAA has vacated wins from programs THEY HAVE NEVER BEFORE SUBTRACTED WINS FROM A COACHES TOTAL.

Even in the NCAA record book, Eddie Sutton is given credit for the two wins he earned in the 1988 tournament. John Calipari is credited with every NCAA win at UMass -- even those that are vacated (the most recent NCAA record book was published before his Memphis wins were vacated).

Stray, whether you like Bowden or not -- and I'm not a big fan either -- this petty pursuit of his career win record is unprecedented. Maybe he does run a sleazy program, but from where I sit, there are few coaches more sleazy than Joe Paterno, a guy who has shown his willingness to play (and protect from the police) criminals who can help him win ... a guy who once sent a drug addled LB to the NFL and complained that nothing he did could stop the guy doing drugs (funny, but it never occurred to Joe to stop playing him).

Actually, if this is going to be the new NCAA standard, it gives Bowden hope of becoming the all-time NCAA wins leader. He was retiring five wins short of Joe Paterno, a gap that could never been made up. Now he's going to be 19 games back ... plus whatever wins Paterno adds before he quits.

But what happens if a scandal at Penn State is revealed in a few years and Paterno loses games? And what if it turns out that Calipari is working the same magic at Kentucky that he worked at UMass and Memphis -- will the NCAA retroactively go back and decide that UNC was actually the first to 2,000 (legitimate wins)?

And what's going to happen when we extend this to other sports? Do we erase the single-season home run totals by the druggies? Does that mean that Roger Maris is once again the single-season home run record holder?

I just think this was an awfully strange time to go after a coach and his record. If you want to start doing this, wouldn't it make more sense to a coach who was actively involved in the scandal?

[roywhite]

I agree that I am confused about the term "vacated" -- I quite understand that SCHOOLS have had titles and victories vacated -- although in Kentucky's case, the two vacated wins they had in 1988 were counted toward the 2,000 win total they celebrated last week. So what does vacated mean?

My point is that while the NCAA has vacated wins from programs THEY HAVE NEVER BEFORE SUBTRACTED WINS FROM A COACHES TOTAL.

Even in the NCAA record book, Eddie Sutton is given credit for the two wins he earned in the 1988 tournament. John Calipari is credited with every NCAA win at UMass -- even those that are vacated (the most recent NCAA record book was published before his Memphis wins were vacated).

Stray, whether you like Bowden or not -- and I'm not a big fan either -- this petty pursuit of his career win record is unprecedented. Maybe he does run a sleazy program, but from where I sit, there are few coaches more sleazy than Joe Paterno, a guy who has shown his willingness to play (and protect from the police) criminals who can help him win ... a guy who once sent a drug addled LB to the NFL and complained that nothing he did could stop the guy doing drugs (funny, but it never occurred to Joe to stop playing him).Actually, if this is going to be the new NCAA standard, it gives Bowden hope of becoming the all-time NCAA wins leader. He was retiring five wins short of Joe Paterno, a gap that could never been made up. Now he's going to be 19 games back ... plus whatever wins Paterno adds before he quits.

But what happens if a scandal at Penn State is revealed in a few years and Paterno loses games? And what if it turns out that Calipari is working the same magic at Kentucky that he worked at UMass and Memphis -- will the NCAA retroactively go back and decide that UNC was actually the first to 2,000 (legitimate wins)?

And what's going to happen when we extend this to other sports? Do we erase the single-season home run totals by the druggies? Does that mean that Roger Maris is once again the single-season home run record holder?

I just think this was an awfully strange time to go after a coach and his record. If you want to start doing this, wouldn't it make more sense to a coach who was actively involved in the scandal?

wow....your comments on Joe Paterno are fightin' words.

No real sense in getting into it, but I'll say that IMO Joe Paterno is a great coach and a great man, on the order of say...Mike Krzyzewski, and I mean that as a compliment to both. I've followed Joe Paterno's career for over 40 years, met and spoke with him personally, and spoken to many, many people associated with Penn State University and college football in general that hold him in the highest regard.

As to the penalty imposed on Bowden and FSU, it seems strange, but did succeed in getting FSU riled up and perhaps will give them incentive to avoid trouble in the future.

[Stray Gator]

I agree that I am confused about the term "vacated" -- I quite understand that SCHOOLS have had titles and victories vacated -- although in Kentucky's case, the two vacated wins they had in 1988 were counted toward the 2,000 win total they celebrated last week. So what does vacated mean?

My point is that while the NCAA has vacated wins from programs THEY HAVE NEVER BEFORE SUBTRACTED WINS FROM A COACHES TOTAL.

Even in the NCAA record book, Eddie Sutton is given credit for the two wins he earned in the 1988 tournament. John Calipari is credited with every NCAA win at UMass -- even those that are vacated (the most recent NCAA record book was published before his Memphis wins were vacated).

Stray, whether you like Bowden or not -- and I'm not a big fan either -- this petty pursuit of his career win record is unprecedented. Maybe he does run a sleazy program, but from where I sit, there are few coaches more sleazy than Joe Paterno, a guy who has shown his willingness to play (and protect from the police) criminals who can help him win ... a guy who once sent a drug addled LB to the NFL and complained that nothing he did could stop the guy doing drugs (funny, but it never occurred to Joe to stop playing him).

Actually, if this is going to be the new NCAA standard, it gives Bowden hope of becoming the all-time NCAA wins leader. He was retiring five wins short of Joe Paterno, a gap that could never been made up. Now he's going to be 19 games back ... plus whatever wins Paterno adds before he quits.

But what happens if a scandal at Penn State is revealed in a few years and Paterno loses games? And what if it turns out that Calipari is working the same magic at Kentucky that he worked at UMass and Memphis -- will the NCAA retroactively go back and decide that UNC was actually the first to 2,000 (legitimate wins)?

And what's going to happen when we extend this to other sports? Do we erase the single-season home run totals by the druggies? Does that mean that Roger Maris is once again the single-season home run record holder?

I just think this was an awfully strange time to go after a coach and his record. If you want to start doing this, wouldn't it make more sense to a coach who was actively involved in the scandal?

Olympic Fan,

It may seem overly simplistic and idealistic, but yes, I would apply a uniform rule that strips coaches and athletes alike of any records procured through cheating--which I would characterize as "ill-gotten gains." In my mind, the "record" is not legitimate, and thus does not merit recognition, if it was achieved by violating the rules, for the simple reason that records are meaningless if not earned in compliance with the rules that are designed to ensure that the competition is conducted fairly on a level playing field. Of course, you need to understand that I'm a hopeless purist--I still regard the season home-run record as being held by Babe Ruth. :D

[Lavabe]

Actually, I don't know what "vacated" actually means ... even in a team sense. Just last week, Kentucky celebrated its 2,000th victory and got a lot of national attention. But among those 2,000 wins were two 1988 NCAA victories that were officially vacated by the NCAA.

Those ill-gotten wins count and Bowden's wins won't???

Just to clarify your point about the vacated wins.

I live in Lexington, and between the "UK2K," Calipari, and Wall stories, I dislike everything BIG BLUE.

However, UK does NOT count the two 1988 NCAA victories in its list of 2,000 wins. The official list can be found at:
http://www.ukathletics.com/sports/m-baskbl/archive/all-time-results.html#1980
Regarding 1988, the following is quoted from the web link I posted:

"*As part of sanctions imposed upon the UK basketball
program in 1989, the National Collegiate Athletic Association
ordered Kentucky to erase from the record three NCAA
tournament games from the 1987-88 season. Kentucky's 99-84
win over Southern, a 90-81 win over Maryland and an 80-74
loss to Villanova have been deleted from the records, thus
changing the 1987-88 season record from 27-6 to 25-5."

The last official UK win that year was against UGA 62-57 in the SEC tourney. If you add up all the wins on the site, the 2,000th win against Drexel this season did NOT include the three NCAA games in question. If the vacated games were included, the Drexel game would have been win #2,002 (they were 2-1 in those games). Even the loss was vacated.

As for the 2,000 wins, I'm more bothered by the 11-10 UK win over the Lexington YMCA in 1903.:D

[gvtucker]

I am pretty sure that Calipari vacated wins at Memphis. If he had those wins that were taken away by the NCAA, then he'd be the all time winningest coach at Memphis. Instead, he's in second place, behind Larry Finch.

Olympic Fan, I think you're wrong here. Coaches in the past have had wins taken away, just as Bowden is getting wins taken away.