College of Charleston 82, uncch 79

[devilboomer]

Henson just got his soft putback TOSSED. ahahahahahaha.

CofC giving UNC a good game. Up 2 w/ 4min left in the first half. No doubt UNC will win in the end, but still great to see Henson dominate.

[SCMatt33]

37-36 CofC @ half

[MChambers]

Nice. We can dream, can't we?

[SupaDave]

You're not dreaming - that's UNC having a hard time with the College of Charleston. I think Davidson has already proven to us to not sleep on the Southern Conference...

[Duvall]

You're not dreaming - that's UNC having a hard time with the College of Charleston. I think Davidson has already proven to us to not sleep on the Southern Conference...

Yeah, but Clemson has made a strong argument (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/boxscore?gid=200912190120) for sleeping on College of Charleston.

There is no excuse for UNC letting Charleston stay in this game.

[Channing]

is this game on tv?

[devilboomer]

this kid Simmons is blocking everything. i love it.

[Dukeface88]

this kid Simmons is blocking everything. i love it.

If he doesn't foul out, this game could go from amusing to hilarious.

[Duvall]

is this game on tv?

espnu.

[devilboomer]

Roy only knows how to play one way: run, run, run.

most of UNC's pts have been on the fast break, but they've had a very large # of turnovers and bad shots b/c these players weren't built to play at this speed.

[SupaDave]

Yeah, but Clemson has made a strong argument (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/boxscore?gid=200912190120) for sleeping on College of Charleston.

There is no excuse for UNC letting Charleston stay in this game.

I can't say that. This is the same school that has lot to Hampton amongst others. This is what they do from time to time. Not to mention that CoC loss to Clemson was @ Clemson. This game here is at the CoC - which is totally strange.

[Duvall]

I can't say that. This is the same school that has lot to Hampton amongst others. This is what they do from time to time. Not to mention that CoC loss to Clemson was @ Clemson. This game here is at the CoC - which is totally strange.

Home court advantage is usually worth about 4 points. I don't think that the eight point swing explains the 30-point difference in final margin.

It's just a terrible effort by the Heels tonight.

[Duvall]

Bwahahahahahahaha

[chattpanther]

Holy CRAP!!! Overtime! Go Cougars!!!

[Dukeface88]

Wow. Just...wow.

[devilboomer]

as soon as the CofC guy dribbled the ball off his foot, straight to his teammate, I knew that they would hit the game-tying 3. it is just that kind of night!

[chattpanther]

Charleston has been in serious foul trouble for the last 11 mins of this game. This a loss for UNC regardless. They should be embarrassed. I love it!

[FerryFor50]

I like the confidence level of Charleston... let's hope they keep it up!

[SupaDave]

Home court advantage is usually worth about 4 points. I don't think that the eight point swing explains the 30-point difference in final margin.

It's just a terrible effort by the Heels tonight.

There is no swing when you're playing a different team. Different match-ups. Different results.

A skilled Trevor Booker was probably too much for them in the early running as he only played 23 mins. Not to mention that they were somewhat competitive in the first half before gettting blown out in the second.

To further the fact that home court advantage does mean SOMETHING. CoC has pasted UNC for a bazillion threes thus far.

They were 8-27 for three @ Clemson. Clemson was 5 for 12.

This game? They are currently 12-30 for three.

UNC? 0-5 for three.

(man - I can't wait to SEE these guys!!!!)

[CrazyCat]

This game is just so freaking incredible, I almost can't stand it. Go Cougars. Wipe you paws on those tarholes.

[FerryFor50]

A couple of late whistles there for UNC.... and a bad three attempt.

COME ON CoC... don't blow it!!!

[FerryFor50]

Wonder if UNC regrets scheduling a home and home with Charleston now? :D

[WiJoe]

this game neither helps nor hurts the holes (unless someone gets injured as has to join the two dolts in civvies on the bench).

[FerryFor50]

This one is about over.... I'm LOVIN IT!!!

[FerryFor50]

this game neither helps nor hurts the holes (unless someone gets injured as has to join the two dolts in civvies on the bench).

Helps me by making my night!

[Duvall]

This one is about over.... I'm LOVIN IT!!!

Why do people say things like this? How can they not know better?

[FerryFor50]

Why do people say things like this? How can they not know better?

Because I'm dumb.

I'll keep quiet till it's actually over...:p

[FerryFor50]

I just saw the FT discrepency... wow.

[CBDUKE]

Oh my, look at those free throws for UNC

[Cameron]

It's ova.

:)

[FerryFor50]

It's ova.

:)

I said it first! :p:D

[chattpanther]

There is no swing when you're playing a different team. Different match-ups. Different results.

A skilled Trevor Booker was probably too much for them in the early running as he only played 23 mins. Not to mention that they were somewhat competitive in the first half before gettting blown out in the second.

To further the fact that home court advantage does mean SOMETHING. CoC has pasted UNC for a bazillion threes thus far.

They were 8-27 for three @ Clemson. Clemson was 5 for 12.

This game? They are currently 12-30 for three.

UNC? 0-5 for three.

(man - I can't wait to SEE these guys!!!!)

UNC has 24 points off of free throws to CofC's 3.

[CrazyCat]

18 seconds in overtime and the Tarholes created a foul, handing The Cougars the game. What idiots. And it's The Cougars ball. OMG this is outstanding.

[SupaDave]

UNC has 24 points off of free throws to CofC's 3.

You do the math on 13 3's vs. 24 points at the strip...

[FerryFor50]

What a dumb, dumb timeout.

Coach of the decade my butt.

[SupaDave]

And the IC explodes in 3... 2... 1...

[DukieBoy]

Wow. Just turned on Sportscenter to see this. What an upset

[FerryFor50]

If I'm charleston... I foul when they catch it.

[CrazyCat]

You think Roy is gonna slap his players silly with his sling and that ugly blue sweater vest?

[FerryFor50]

You think Roy is gonna slap his players silly with his sling and that ugly blue sweater vest?

He should start with himself for not having his team ready.

[SupaDave]

By the way - can we just give Bobby Cremins a shout out? Let's not forget he's an ACC guy who has played many UNC teams...

[jimrowe0]

AND UNC LOSEsss!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GLTBD]

Oh happy day!!!!! GTHC

[FerryFor50]

Duke beats down Clemson on Sunday... UNC loses to a 7-6 team on Monday... GREAT start to the week. :D

[DukieBoy]

Think C of C is going to riot tonight? Storm the court guys. It doesn't get better than this.

GTHC

[Exiled_Devil]

Yeah Bobby Cremins!!!

I do feel bad for the UNC player (Drew?) who was stuck in the mob scene that came on the court. But he did mope his way back to the bench.

[HCheek37]

what a night! love seeing ole Roy lose....:D

[FerryFor50]

Yeah Bobby Cremins!!!

I do feel bad for the UNC player (Drew?) who was stuck in the mob scene that came on the court. But he did mope his way back to the bench.

Maybe that'll teach him not to lose! :D

[chattpanther]

You do the math on 13 3's vs. 24 points at the strip...


I just figured you wanted to include that stat since you included everything else. Also add the missed, uncontested layup by UNC with 6 seconds left.:D

[RainingThrees]

HELL YEAH!!!! It's over, GTHC!!!!

[diesel]

Where is Wheat when we need to talk to him?

[slower]

we're ALL Charlestonians!!! :D

[grossbus]

bad coaching by ole roy down the stretch??

and then that possession down 3 in OT and dribble around and then drive for 2...and miss...and foul.

[CrazyCat]

Do hope the Tarholes have a safe drive home. It is gonna be a long trip back to Chapel Hell.

[mgtr]

It was a beautiful thing!

[JaMarcus Russell]

I saw the last 3 minutes of the second half as well as overtime. That was definitely a fun game to watch :D Congrats to Cremins and the College of Charleston.

Hopefully the media will stop pretending as if this year's UNC team is a top 10-15 squad now. I think they are the most overrated team in the country next to Michigan State, and it is certainly not just based on this game.

[FerryFor50]

bad coaching by ole roy down the stretch??

and then that possession down 3 in OT and dribble around and then drive for 2...and miss...and foul.

How about the timeout on the FT miss to "set up a play" instead of taking your chances on driving the court... and then have that play be a throw away? Priceless.

[Duvall]

How about the timeout on the FT miss to "set up a play" instead of taking your chances on driving the court... and then have that play be a throw away? Priceless.

Roy learned from the master.

[Native]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X1VIyZe3Ws

[HateCarolina]

Joy to the world....I absolutely despise Carolina and all of the UNC fans that I work with tomorrow better cower in their offices because there is going to be some $h!t talk from me tomorrow!!!

[OldSchool]

This game could be Exhibit A for the proposition that college basketball is for the most part a guard's game.

Thompson and Davis went 12 for 22 with 23 rebounds and 7 blocks. Not too shabby.

But UNC still lost (YESS!!!) because of weak guard play.

Party on, Charleston!!

[IBleedBlue]

So much for the "toughest schedule" in the entire world that heels have this season. It's all crap. Roy cannot coach defense and doesn't have shooters to shoot over zone D. All he has in his playbook are two things- run and throw the ball inside. Well, Mr.Roy, it doesn't work all the time. :D

[Jim3k]

Do hope the Tarholes have a safe drive home. It is gonna be a long trip back to Chapel Hell.

They'll be flying. About 310 miles by car. Even so, that plane will be quiet.

GTHC

[camion]

I swear I was in the gym when CofC beat UNC back in January of 2010. :D

[CrazyCat]

Joy to the world....I absolutely despise Carolina and all of the UNC fans that I work with tomorrow better cower in their offices because there is going to be some $h!t talk from me tomorrow!!!

Oh you have fun with that. I wish I could be there to see the look on their faces when you walk in that door with a big eat sh***n grin on your face. :D

[RainingThrees]

To every Carolina fan I will ask the same question, What happened to mighty Carolina who they predicted would make another deep tourney run?

[cspan37421]

Anyone looking forward to payback? That's what make rivalries so satisfying, and right now, I rather like the cards in our hand vs. what UNC must have.

[CrazyCat]

They'll be flying. About 310 miles by car. Even so, that plane will be quiet.

GTHC

O.K. which ever mode of transportation they use, it will be very quite indeed.

[roywhite]

They'll be flying. About 310 miles by car. Even so, that plane will be quiet.

GTHC

Next comes the part where Roy throws a player or two under the bus when discussing the game with the media.

[YourLandlord]

To every Carolina fan I will ask the same question, What happened to mighty Carolina who they predicted would make another deep tourney run?

chances are good this post could come back to bite you. we're a long way from march, and they're a young team.

[CrazyCat]

Next comes the part where Roy throws a player or two under the bus when discussing the game with the media.

Oh you know it. Wished the network stayed with that game long enough for us to hear Ole Roy make a .. out of himself and scrap up some lame excuse why they just got handed their .. by CofC

[Lord Ash]

So much for the "toughest schedule" in the entire world that heels have this season.

Well, for them it IS awful tough.

However, it is just one game. Carolina could still be dangerous.

[Mike Corey]

Easy to love a loss like this. But dUNCe has a lot of growing to do, which it very well could by February/March. But man, is their guard-play lacking.

[Dukeface88]

Oh you know it. Wished the network stayed with that game long enough for us to hear Ole Roy make a a** out of himself and scrap up some lame excuse why they just got handed their as**s by CofC

Clearly it was the CofC fans and their lack of decency. They should have more respect than to cheer that loudly against guests. Roy should have had them all thrwon out :D

[airowe]

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Cameron]

I said it first!


Yes, but without the seasoned touch of the man who solved the Nikki Simpson case. ;)

I've already got this one rewound on my Dish and the recorder is in action. We've got about 6:31 to play; Carolina up four.

Think this one's going the distance? :D

[jv001]

ole roy learned from the best, old deannie boy. dean and roy never give the opponent credit. It was always they(unc) gave the game away. I hate carolina. Go Duke!

[Vincetaylor]

Happy UNC lost, but not surprised at all. Playing on the road against decent opponents is never easy. It's unfortunate that we only have one true road game all season against a non-conference team(the loss to Wisconsin) because I would like to see how we would handle similar matchups.

[Jim3k]

Both Ginyard and Graves were in street clothes for this. It's still a nice victory for CofC, but the return of those two will make Orange County CC a different team.

That said, it's still wonderful. But no gloating for me.

heh heh heh heh heh!!! GTHC!

[Duvall]

Both Ginyard and Graves were in street clothes for this. It's still a nice victory for CofC, but the return of those two will make Orange County CC a different team.

That said, it's still wonderful. But no gloating for me.

heh heh heh heh heh!!! GTHC!

Ginyard would have helped them defensively, but since when is Will Graves any kind of difference maker?

[Jarhead]

Frankly, I think Roy showed some of his weaknesses in this game. Clock management at end game is one of them. And what was that cross court inbounds play at the very end? The coach just gave that game away.

[78Devil]

Interesting to view insidecarolina.com. Lots of handwringing over this loss. The most fun is to see how many people concede that while "Ole Roy" is a master recruiter, he's not much of a coach in game situations. What people on this Board have been saying for years....

Also interesting to see how much hate they have for Coach K. In one poll -- who do you hate more, Calipari or K -- only a small minority recognized that Coach K was an enemy that while hated has been good for the game. I think most of us, irrespective of our hatred of UNC, would rather have Roy Williams as an honorable opponent than Calipari any day.

[El_Diablo]

Happy UNC lost, but not surprised at all. Playing on the road against decent opponents is never easy. It's unfortunate that we only have one true road game all season against a non-conference team(the loss to Wisconsin) because I would like to see how we would handle similar matchups.

Georgetown?

[Duvall]

Happy UNC lost, but not surprised at all. Playing on the road against decent opponents is never easy. It's unfortunate that we only have one true road game all season against a non-conference team(the loss to Wisconsin) because I would like to see how we would handle similar matchups.

Well, we also take on the #12 team in the country on their home floor. But I guess that doesn't give you the same experience as playing at a 7-6 squad from the Southern Conference.

Charleston isn't a decent opponent.

[Biscuit King]

the weauxfgods can eat my shorts. we all know carolina has a bunch of talent this year, but the fact is, UNC lost to a team that was 7-6 and rated around #200 by Ken Pomeroy. that, my friends, is worth celebrating.

and it's also a clear sign that UNC just isn't that good (yet). maybe they'll make big strides in the coming months, but right now, they are the fourth or fifth best team in the ACC. sorry, it's not a weauxf. it's the truth.

[Devilsfan]

What upset? And Gynyard? Some senior leadership he provided in Texas and Kentucky. Maybe they needed Barnes more than we did.

[roywhite]

Well, we also take on the #12 team in the country on their home floor. But I guess that doesn't give you the same experience as playing at a 7-6 squad from the Southern Conference.

Charleston isn't a decent opponent.

Now, wait a second. Charleston lost to Clemson by only 39 points.

[Devilsfan]

Is it really a true college? Carleston West Virginia?

[Wander]

Now, wait a second. Charleston lost to Clemson by only 39 points.

So this means we'll beat UNC by 63 points, right? :D

[OldSchool]

From the AP recap of the game:


North Carolina coach Roy Williams has a beach home just north of the city in the Wild Dunes resort and, with the university on winter break, brought the Tar Heels in on Saturday night with the team staying at the swanky Charleston Place hotel.

So there we have the explanation -- the team grew soft being pampered before the game at a swanky hotel!

Next time, barracks at Parris Island.

[weezie]

Oh this is so fun!!

"Wheat"?"?"" toast anybody?

[Jim3k]

Ginyard would have helped them defensively, but since when is Will Graves any kind of difference maker?

You may be right, but Graves shoots treys in the 40% range. CofC was better off without him on the floor. Ginyard could have turned them over a bit more than happened tonight.

[roywhite]

From the AP recap of the game:



So there we have the explanation -- the team grew soft being pampered before the game at a swanky hotel!

Next time, barracks at Parris Island.

Word has it that Roy started to launch a tirade against the home cooking officiating, until one of the men in stripes pointed to the score sheet:

College of Charleston 6 free throws
UNC 34 free throws

ooops...carry on, guys. And have a Coke on me.

[Jarhead]

Is it really a true college? Carleston West Virginia?

Are you joking? It's in South Carolina, one of the nicest cities to visit.

[I_am_a_Blue_Devil]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/bracketology

check out our predicted opponent in the latest braketology. a funny coincedence.

[CrazyCat]

Clearly it was the CofC fans and their lack of decency. They should have more respect than to cheer that loudly against guests. Roy should have had them all thrown out :D

You are so correct. My goodness, where were their manners, LOL:D.

[dukebballcamper90-91]

and its funny how when we lose or any other top team does its plastered everywhere and I browse to espn.com and they got tcu on the front page. go figure, i hate espn

[Jim3k]

From the AP recap of the game:



So there we have the explanation -- the team grew soft being pampered before the game at a swanky hotel!

Next time, barracks at Parris Island.

I stayed there for a week-long conference 2 years ago. It's a decent hotel but looks more swanky than it really is. Admittedly, it has a grande dame architecture, but those kids wouldn't appreciate it. They'd be more interested in the game room -- which doesn't exist, IIRC. Food is OK, but there is better outside.

If they'd stayed at a La Quinta or equivalent, the result would have been the same.

[Mike Corey]

From the AP recap of the game:



So there we have the explanation -- the team grew soft being pampered before the game at a swanky hotel!

Next time, barracks at Parris Island.

He's also got a mansion on the ocean in Wrighstville Beach.

He's got more houses than John McCain!

[Devilsfan]

Where's Michael when they need him?

[NYDukie]

and its funny how when we lose or any other top team does its plastered everywhere and I browse to espn.com and they got tcu on the front page. go figure, i hate espn

At least SI had the UNC loss share top billing with the Boise St-TCU game...LOL I guess Seth Davis has some pull or is trying to get back on Duke's good side...LOL

[bl33dblu3]

way to go Coach Cremins...happy new year indeed

[roywhite]

At least SI had the UNC loss share top billing with the Boise St-TCU game...LOL I guess Seth Davis has some pull or is trying to get back on Duke's good side...LOL

Mr. Bracketology, Joe Lunardi, picks up on the theme with our projected first round matchup:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/bracketology

[SCMatt33]

That win alone might be enough to get them above a 15 seed if CofC does get in.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

UNC obviously played poorly in this one, but it would not be fair to CoC if it's not pointed out how well they played. They hit some tough shots the 2nd half, especially the one to send it to OT, and played some inspired D at the rim.

Congrats to them, a great road crowd, and to Cremmins, I always liked him.

UNC struggled with getting a outside shot, again, and then in getting one to fall with the freshman wings available.

They lost it at the line, missing clutch FT's, which everybody knew would bite them at the rate they've been shooting FT's all season. It will again if they don't get better.

The one bright spot was better play from McDonald than we had been seeing.

All in all I'm not overly sweatiing this one. Two starters out at the already weakest positions, and they played like the very young team we expected to lose a few like this,.... Oh, and I don't care what their record is, CoC played very well. They shot lights out second half, most from deep or heavily contested.

Like coach K's decision not playing his bench at times, I scratch my head at Roy's decision to push, push, push with this team. But, they know what they are doing, both are heading to the HOF, and it's their team.

I like this UNC team, and still believe they will be a tough out come tourney time, but they need to make better decisions, find a leader, and find some chemistry.

I wouldn't write them off just yet.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

At least SI had the UNC loss share top billing with the Boise St-TCU game...LOL I guess Seth Davis has some pull or is trying to get back on Duke's good side...LOL

After all, the Boise State - TCU game is a bowl game.

[dukeman28428]

I can't think of a better way to start the New Year.... GTHC

[camion]

Happy UNC lost, but not surprised at all. Playing on the road against decent opponents is never easy. It's unfortunate that we only have one true road game all season against a non-conference team(the loss to Wisconsin) because I would like to see how we would handle similar matchups.

You won't see how we handle similar road matchups this year because CofC is currently ranked around 80 spots lower than the WORST team in the ACC. I think we'll do just fine, but you should be terrified for UNC.

[moonpie23]

look folks, let's not get carried away.....this is the team that played UK at their house and lost by 2. unc isn't nearly as bad as this game and they will prove it as the season wears on...


that being said...


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...



love it..

[wallyman]

:)
If ever it was a pleasure to watch idiots storm the court, this was it. Great to see the Holes lose and nice to see Cremins get such a big win.

That said, way too early to bury them -- especially given who didn't suit up. And Wheat remains a contradiction in terms -- an honorable Heel. Always glad to read his posts here.

[JG Nothing]

If they'd stayed at a La Quinta or equivalent, the result would have been the same.

Perhaps unc should have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

[jipops]

UNC obviously played poorly in this one, but it would not be fair to CoC if it's not pointed out how well they played. They hit some tough shots the 2nd half, especially the one to send it to OT, and played some inspired D at the rim.

Congrats to them, a great road crowd, and to Cremmins, I always liked him.

UNC struggled with getting a outside shot, again, and then in getting one to fall with the freshman wings available.

They lost it at the line, missing clutch FT's, which everybody knew would bite them at the rate they've been shooting FT's all season. It will again if they don't get better.

The one bright spot was better play from McDonald than we had been seeing.

All in all I'm not overly sweatiing this one. Two starters out at the already weakest positions, and they played like the very young team we expected to lose a few like this,.... Oh, and I don't care what their record is, CoC played very well. They shot lights out second half, most from deep or heavily contested.

Like coach K's decision not playing his bench at times, I scratch my head at Roy's decision to push, push, push with this team. But, they know what they are doing, both are heading to the HOF, and it's their team.

I like this UNC team, and still believe they will be a tough out come tourney time, but they need to make better decisions, find a leader, and find some chemistry.

I wouldn't write them off just yet.

Spoken like a true level-headed fan. Anybody writing off the heels needs a sanity check.

[Duvall]

look folks, let's not get carried away.....this is the team that played UK at their house and lost by 2.

Wall drinks his Gatorade and the Heels lose that game by 20.

[uh_no]

look folks, let's not get carried away.....this is the team that played UK at their house and lost by 2. unc isn't nearly as bad as this game and they will prove it as the season wears on...


that being said...


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...



love it..

the same UK that barely scraped by the uconn juggernaut...and was taken to the wire by louisville....

[brevity]

I like this UNC team, and still believe they will be a tough out come tourney time, but they need to make better decisions, find a leader, and find some chemistry.

Fair assessment. You hope that the Heels learn from their mistakes. We hope they don't.

I felt a little bad for Larry Drew II, who got caught in the court-storming. Stuck right in the middle, it took him about half a minute to navigate his way out. To his credit, he looked very calm and patient.

The comments over at The Charlotte Observer are like a coming out party for NC State fans, still nursing their wounds after the Florida loss. I wanted to see more hand-wringing from the Chapel Hill West faithful. Maybe tomorrow.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/story/1160566.html

[Cockabeau]

I know the kid wasnt bright to begin with when he drank the Roy koolaid.

But still, the kid should be bright enough to see with Barnes AND Bullock and PJ Hairston coming in the following year it might be wise to get out of dodge as PT will become slim pickings.

[roywhite]

Spoken like a true level-headed fan. Anybody writing off the heels needs a sanity check.

Fair point. They have some talent, particularly in the frontcourt. The challenges I see are:

Does their style of play match the talent?
To the above point, will Roy adjust the style of play?
Larry Drew appears to be an improving PG
Shooting guards---go with the older guys or lean to Strickland and McDonald?

The issues all seem to involve guard play.

[Wildcat]

Not at all. CoC played UNC tough for a half a couple of years ago at the Dean Dome. We shouldn't be surprised, Bobby C is/was one of the better recruiters in the ACC and in College basketball. The guy knows talent when he sees it. Those guys on the floor tonight could flat out play. UNC has great talent, but there guard play ruins it for them. They are totally out of control at times. But to think that they aren't that good is a total misread. PLEASE, they have quickness, strength, depth, decent coaching, loads of potential and will have had much game experience against top ranked teams.

Roy did Bobby a favor by going into their home court. Great gesture, and a sign of humility. They will be a better team in the long run.

[Duvall]

Not at all. CoC played UNC tough for a half a couple of years ago at the Dean Dome. We shouldn't be surprised, Bobby C is/was one of the better recruiters in the ACC and in College basketball. The guy knows talent when he sees it. Those guys on the floor tonight could flat out play.

If they can "flat out play," why are they only 7-6? How did they lose to Hawaii (Sagarin 200, Pomeroy 190)? How did they lose to East Tennessee State (Sagarin 142, Pomeroy 125)?

[DevilHorns]

Not at all. CoC played UNC tough for a half a couple of years ago at the Dean Dome. We shouldn't be surprised, Bobby C is/was one of the better recruiters in the ACC and in College basketball. The guy knows talent when he sees it. Those guys on the floor tonight could flat out play. UNC has great talent, but there guard play ruins it for them. They are totally out of control at times. But to think that they aren't that good is a total misread. PLEASE, they have quickness, strength, depth, decent coaching, loads of potential and will have had much game experience against top ranked teams.

Roy did Bobby a favor by going into their home court. Great gesture, and a sign of humility. They will be a better team in the long run.

NOT A TRUE UPSET? THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF A TRUE UPSET! CoC lost to Clemson by 30 points! Did you see the comments from the CoC coach after the game?

Losing to Wisconsin away, now thats not a true upset.

[elvis14]

What a great 2 days of hoops. Next week UNC will drop down to about #12 in the rankings and CoC will be in the top 25. 9F

[FerryFor50]

Not at all. CoC played UNC tough for a half a couple of years ago at the Dean Dome. We shouldn't be surprised, Bobby C is/was one of the better recruiters in the ACC and in College basketball. The guy knows talent when he sees it. Those guys on the floor tonight could flat out play. UNC has great talent, but there guard play ruins it for them. They are totally out of control at times. But to think that they aren't that good is a total misread. PLEASE, they have quickness, strength, depth, decent coaching, loads of potential and will have had much game experience against top ranked teams.

Roy did Bobby a favor by going into their home court. Great gesture, and a sign of humility. They will be a better team in the long run.

Someone has the Carolina blue glasses on...

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Not at all. CoC played UNC tough for a half a couple of years ago at the Dean Dome. We shouldn't be surprised, Bobby C is/was one of the better recruiters in the ACC and in College basketball. The guy knows talent when he sees it. Those guys on the floor tonight could flat out play. UNC has great talent, but there guard play ruins it for them. They are totally out of control at times. But to think that they aren't that good is a total misread. PLEASE, they have quickness, strength, depth, decent coaching, loads of potential and will have had much game experience against top ranked teams.

Roy did Bobby a favor by going into their home court. Great gesture, and a sign of humility. They will be a better team in the long run.


That's the most ridiculous statement I've heard all night. Not a true upset? We're talking a 7-6 CofC team against the defending national champs. How can you not think this is an upset?

[Dukeface88]

That's the most ridiculous statement I've heard all night. Not a true upset? We're talking a 7-6 CofC team against the defending national champs. How can you not think this is an upset?

I disagree. IMO, it comes in second to "College of Charleston 82, uncch 79"

[CameronBlue]

Congratulations to Bobby, always liked him...and Keet Boot says hi!

[-bdbd]

Fair point. They have some talent, particularly in the frontcourt. The challenges I see are:

Does their style of play match the talent?
To the above point, will Roy adjust the style of play?
Larry Drew appears to be an improving PG
Shooting guards---go with the older guys or lean to Strickland and McDonald?

The issues all seem to involve guard play.

Wahoo! What a way to kick off the new year! Talk about your late Christmas present. Now everyone be sure to write your 'thank you' notes to Bobby Cremmins!

Re. RoyWhite's post, I think the perimeter woes of NC@Chapel Hill are well established. This just demonstrates, once again, how to beat them this year. To some degree pack it in around their bigs and make he perimeter guys beat you. Can Roy adapt to match the strengths of his players like K seems to revel doing? I don't see it. Huck was clearly out-coached in this one, obviously. Great win for Bobby and a team that, on paper, comes in with much less talent and/or facillities and resources compared with the "IBM Corp of College BB" -- NC@Chapel Hill.

Certainly you never write off a team with this many McD AA's, but I'm starting to see a real possibility of them drifting down into the ACC 2nd tier pack of Clemson, GT, MD, Miami. They certainly are not playing the optimal style for the talents of their players. And they will lose other close games, too, b/c they can't shoot FT's down the stretch.

To the Tarheel fans posting that this was some form of "gentlemanly gesture" by ole Huck, playing in Charleston, I say, "bah, humbug." Spin it however you want, there are as many self-serving reasons for playing there too. I used to live there, and can say with authority that there is a large base of NC fans in the Charleston area -- a base which Huck was certainly trying to encourage/support with a local game. (Not entirely unlike Duke playing non-conference games in DC and NYC.) Certainly that was at least part of the motivation. Coaches play those games, as well, to prepare their team to play in hostile arenas later during conference and tournament play. I just wonder if Huck tried to have the whole stadium thrown out, justified as "drunken, uncooperative behavior," for daring to make noise during his team's free throws....

It is really fun to see the Tarheels squirm and spin the result so hard. What an embarassing performance against a team their fans certainly had penciled in pre-season as probably a 30 point win.

Wahoo!! Given Duke's strength at guard (if not depth), I find myself pretty encouraged.

:D:D:D

[JaMarcus Russell]

Just made someones college career relevant..damn.

That's a lot of arrogance coming from a guy averaging 3 points per game.

http://twitter.com/JohnHenson31

[DevilHorns]

That's a lot of arrogance coming from a guy averaging 3 points per game.

http://twitter.com/JohnHenson31

arrogant, but true.

[striker219]

arrogant, but true.

Yeah, but mostly arrogant. I would HOPE that we wouldn't see this kind of thing from a Duke player (please don't prove me wrong internets), and if so I'm pretty confident that he would be dealt with.

Just kind of a classless move. Hey John, hows about you go on a diet, watch some tape, and try to improve your game.

[BlueintheFace]

Speaking of twitter:


"tythornton1 way to start the decade off UNC.smh! lls "

[JaMarcus Russell]

He has contributed slightly more than any poster on this site to the historical legacy of UNC as a basketball power.

[Duvall]

Roy's management of the rotation has bitten them in the butt. Specifically, why on earth would Tyler Zeller only play 14 minutes (http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2009-2010/cofc0104.html)?

[Kane]

Let's pretend we're humble . . . like a true devil licking his chops, with a gleam in his eye hungry, hungry, hungry like a starved satanic beast yearning to thrust that blue pitch fork into the heart of the ram and watch it quiver, struggle, bleed and slowly die a cruel suffering death! Untl then . . . just smile ;-)

[Duvall]

That's a lot of arrogance coming from a guy averaging 3 points per game.

http://twitter.com/JohnHenson31

You can tweet the game, but can you play the game?

[roywhite]

Roy's management of the rotation has bitten them in the butt. Specifically, why on earth would Tyler Zeller only play 14 minutes (http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2009-2010/cofc0104.html)?

UNC had 9 players who played at least 14 minutes. Is this the kind of rotation some posters are lobbying for? Good for resting the starters and providing court time for the reserves, who presumably will develop faster? I'm not seeing the benefits for this years Tarheel team just yet.

[camion]

Sure you can tweet the tweet, but can you gotta mete the feat. :o


Yeah, it's tough rhyming that.

[oldnavy]

Not at all. CoC played UNC tough for a half a couple of years ago at the Dean Dome. We shouldn't be surprised, Bobby C is/was one of the better recruiters in the ACC and in College basketball. The guy knows talent when he sees it. Those guys on the floor tonight could flat out play. UNC has great talent, but there guard play ruins it for them. They are totally out of control at times. But to think that they aren't that good is a total misread. PLEASE, they have quickness, strength, depth, decent coaching, loads of potential and will have had much game experience against top ranked teams.

Roy did Bobby a favor by going into their home court. Great gesture, and a sign of humility. They will be a better team in the long run.

First, there are a lot of ways to describe Roy Williams, but humility and Roy do not belong in the same sentence.

If I were a UNC fan, I would be concerned by this, because thus far and we are what over 1/3 of the way in, this team just doesn't seem to get it. I have seen them play about 30 minutes of good ball all year, spread out over their 15 games. Either they figure it out very soon, or this year is going to go down in flames. If they think CoC was tough at home, how are they going to do on the road in the ACC? Having Ginyard and Graves out did hurt them and may well have cost them, but even with those two in the game, this team is not very impressive. I do not have faith that Roy will right the ship either. I do not think he can coach his way out of this, but I may be wrong. He has help on the way next year, because he is a GREAT recruiter, but I just don't think he is that good at coaching outside the "run faster than your opponent" style he prefers.

[jdj4duke]

Charleston TV of course grabbed the C of C players on the court at the end of the game for their reactions but the best comment was from freshman Willis Hall, from Charlotte, who just screamed into the camera "I have been for Duke my whole life and came here and this is just great!"

Send that boy a shirt!

[slower]

Roy did Bobby a favor by going into their home court. Great gesture, and a sign of humility. They will be a better team in the long run.

The announcers said it was a 3-game series, with 1 game at CoC and 2 in the SinkHole.

How does that equate to a "favor" in your mind? Also, to Roy, I'd think that a "great gesture" involves raising one finger. And "humility" ?????? Please, dude. ;)

[MulletMan]

That's a lot of arrogance coming from a guy averaging 3 points per game.

http://twitter.com/JohnHenson31

Another classic:

"Hahahahahahha RT @eddavis32: I don't understand why everybody on team wanna be rappers now. I tell them stay in school get there education."

Clearly freshman English at UNC hasn't gotten to their vs. there yet.

[Lord Ash]

UNC had 9 players who played at least 14 minutes. Is this the kind of rotation some posters are lobbying for? Good for resting the starters and providing court time for the reserves, who presumably will develop faster? I'm not seeing the benefits for this years Tarheel team just yet.

Hm, I think we would all agree, ultimately, this game doesn't mean THAT much, as much fun as it is, and that the idea of resting players and giving players real, game time experience is NOT one that is meant to pay off in early January... and given UNCs March successes versus our own over the last five years, I am not ready to say much.

[allenmurray]

Where is Wheat when we need to talk to him?

Busy posting abut Hansborough's NBA career and defending the Helms award, I guess. ;)

[Duvall]

Where is Wheat when we need to talk to him?

Well, I think we can answer his question about how Duke will deal with UNC's frontcourt players - if UNC's starting backcourt turns in another 5-21 shooting performance, they won't have to.

[whereinthehellami]

I like this UNC team, and still believe they will be a tough out come tourney time, but they need to make better decisions, find a leader, and find some chemistry.

I love this. You might want to add outside shooting to this list of items you want for Christmas too.


Not at all. CoC played UNC tough for a half a couple of years ago at the Dean Dome. We shouldn't be surprised, Bobby C is/was one of the better recruiters in the ACC and in College basketball. The guy knows talent when he sees it. Those guys on the floor tonight could flat out play. UNC has great talent, but there guard play ruins it for them. They are totally out of control at times. But to think that they aren't that good is a total misread. PLEASE, they have quickness, strength, depth, decent coaching, loads of potential and will have had much game experience against top ranked teams.

Roy did Bobby a favor by going into their home court. Great gesture, and a sign of humility. They will be a better team in the long run.

Look at their record and their RPI. No amount of spin can make that look good.

[Carlos]

Not at all. CoC played UNC tough for a half a couple of years ago at the Dean Dome. We shouldn't be surprised, Bobby C is/was one of the better recruiters in the ACC and in College basketball. The guy knows talent when he sees it. Those guys on the floor tonight could flat out play. UNC has great talent, but there guard play ruins it for them. They are totally out of control at times. But to think that they aren't that good is a total misread. PLEASE, they have quickness, strength, depth, decent coaching, loads of potential and will have had much game experience against top ranked teams.

Roy did Bobby a favor by going into their home court. Great gesture, and a sign of humility. They will be a better team in the long run.

The "talent" that Bobby signed lost to Coastal Carolina, a team Duke beat by 25. They squeaked out a 3-point win over UNCG, a team that Duke beat by 34 points on a night when Nolan Smith wasn't playing. They were destroyed by Clemson, spanked by Hawaii, and defeated by Western Michigan. Their best win prior to beating the Heels... beating a barely .500 Davidson squad at home. (Sorry, this is not the same quality of Davidson team that was on the floor a couple of years ago.) The combined record of the teams that C of C had defeated prior to the UNC win was 35-59 and the average margin of victory in those games was just over 9 points.

So, despite your admiration for Bobby's ability to spot talent, this is not a particularly great C of C team and beating a ranked Tar Heel squad is very much an upset.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Hm, I think we would all agree, ultimately, this game doesn't mean THAT much, as much fun as it is, and that the idea of resting players and giving players real, game time experience is NOT one that is meant to pay off in early January... and given UNCs March successes versus our own over the last five years, I am not ready to say much.
I think it will mean more than the heels care to think about. It won't be good for morale to have a losing record away from home, and two of their losses are now against unranked teams. (Yes, Syracuse is ranked now, but they weren't at game time) I think the selection committee will look at a game like this as well, it could be the difference between a 3, 4 or a 5 seed. Not having the players on the court is a weak argument in my mind. If your team has two players that are the difference between being a top 10 team and losing to a team with a 7-6 record, it does not bode well for you when likely there are more injuries on the horizon. Make no mistake..Charleston is not a good team. They were blown out by almost 40 against the same Clemson team that Duke just routed. Their other wins are not against impressive teams.

[devilboomer]

I think it will mean more than the heels care to think about. It won't be good for morale to have a losing record away from home, and two of their losses are now against unranked teams. (Yes, Syracuse is ranked now, but they weren't at game time) I think the selection committee will look at a game like this as well, it could be the difference between a 3, 4 or a 5 seed. Not having the players on the court is a weak argument in my mind. If your team has two players that are the difference between being a top 10 team and losing to a team with a 7-6 record, it does not bode well for you when likely there are more injuries on the horizon. Make no mistake..Charleston is not a good team. They were blown out by almost 40 against the same Clemson team that Duke just routed. Their other wins are not against impressive teams.

Syracuse was ranked #24 at game time. The UNC players and the selection committee will look at Syracuse as a top 10, potential 1/2 seed team...so that's not a bad loss at all.

The C of C game is a bad loss, but the UNC guys have big enough egos that it won't hurt their confidence. Agree that this is the type of game that might push them from a 3 to 4 seed.

The announcer during the game yesterday said that Ginyard may miss the VaTech game as well. Anyone have an update on this?

[moonpie23]

this is the kind of game that is bittersweet......i love having them lose to a much lower ranked team like COC.....but now, and for awhile......I'll have to listen to the dreaded "no big deal, we're just getting ready for next year !" from their fans.

:(

[slower]

Hm, I think we would all agree, ultimately, this game doesn't mean THAT much, as much fun as it is, and that the idea of resting players and giving players real, game time experience is NOT one that is meant to pay off in early January... and given UNCs March successes versus our own over the last five years, I am not ready to say much.

As much as I hate the Holes (and I DO) and as good as this upset makes me feel (and it DOES), I still believe the Holes have the ability to beat ANYBODY on any given day. Write them off or underestimate them at your own risk.

[uncwdevil]

Check out John Henson's tweet after the game last night:

Freshman John Henson (johnhenson31): Just made someone's college career relevant ... damn

You can see others here:

http://aboverim.blogspot.com/2010/01/tar-heels-tweet-reactions-to-upset.html

[FerryFor50]

As much as I hate the Holes (and I DO) and as good as this upset makes me feel (and it DOES), I still believe the Holes have the ability to beat ANYBODY on any given day. Write them off or underestimate them at your own risk.

Apparently, so does the College of Charleston. :D

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Busy posting abut Hansborough's NBA career and defending the Helms award, I guess. ;)

I'm here for some reasoned and civil discussion, almost anytime.

This game was absolutely an upset. UNC should have won it. Poor execution late by the Heels. Nobody to blame but themselves.

But upsets happen in basketball, so after many years you just learn to deal with them.

Last night, the biggest issue was the 3 spot. When UNC starts a 6'10" freshman, a natural 4/5 man, at the 3 there are issues. It was compounded by poor play by Strickland at the 2.

Teams will still need to shoot it really well to beat this UNC team, because they will score inside on you, even when the D is packed in.

Graves is the key player at this point with this team, and his shooting is needed to get them in rythem, but even then, we all know he is not Danny Green or Ellington.

It is what it is, as they say.

This team will still beat a lot of people.

[RoyalBlue08]

I think it will mean more than the heels care to think about. It won't be good for morale to have a losing record away from home, and two of their losses are now against unranked teams. (Yes, Syracuse is ranked now, but they weren't at game time) I think the selection committee will look at a game like this as well, it could be the difference between a 3, 4 or a 5 seed. Not having the players on the court is a weak argument in my mind. If your team has two players that are the difference between being a top 10 team and losing to a team with a 7-6 record, it does not bode well for you when likely there are more injuries on the horizon. Make no mistake..Charleston is not a good team. They were blown out by almost 40 against the same Clemson team that Duke just routed. Their other wins are not against impressive teams.

Having now seen this Carolina squad play a few times, I think they should be happy if they end up with a 4 or a 5 seed. IMO, there are a lot more losses coming....

[superdave]

Ahhhh...a favorite topic on the DBR boards.

I didnt see the game but noticed in the DBR writeup that UNC was up 11 with 5 minutes to go. Might stall ball have worked?

Larry Drew is a good enough ball handler to do it, if he can slow down a bit and make good decisions. Or UNC could have just pounded the ball inside to draw fouls and kill CofC momentum.

Hey Wheat - is this loss a sign that UNC is a notch below where we thought they were? Or is it a brain fart for a young team that will be a peaking in March?

[FerryFor50]

I'm here for some reasoned and civil discussion, almost anytime.

This game was absolutely an upset. UNC should have won it. Poor execution late by the Heels. Nobody to blame but themselves.

But upsets happen in basketball, so after many years you just learn to deal with them.

Last night, the biggest issue was the 3 spot. When UNC starts a 6'10" freshman, a natural 4/5 man, at the 3 there are issues. It was compounded by poor play by Strickland at the 2.

Teams will still need to shoot it really well to beat this UNC team, because they will score inside on you, even when the D is packed in.

Graves is the key player at this point with this team, and his shooting is needed to get them in rythem, but even then, we all know he is not Danny Green or Ellington.

It is what it is, as they say.

This team will still beat a lot of people.

UNC will get better when Roy realizes that he needs to play more of Zeller and McDonald and less of Strickland and the Wear twins...

[FerryFor50]

Ahhhh...a favorite topic on the DBR boards.

I didnt see the game but noticed in the DBR writeup that UNC was up 11 with 5 minutes to go. Might stall ball have worked?

Larry Drew is a good enough ball handler to do it, if he can slow down a bit and make good decisions. Or UNC could have just pounded the ball inside to draw fouls and kill CofC momentum.

Hey Wheat - is this loss a sign that UNC is a notch below where we thought they were? Or is it a brain fart for a young team that will be a peaking in March?

You mean they aren't who we thought they were? :D

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/lbrownie/dennis-green-crown.jpg

[davekay1971]

This team will still beat a lot of people.

And in 2031 I'm planning on awarding them the Kay Award as the 2009-2010 National Champions. They can hang that up there next to the other banners...

(Don't take it wrong, Wheat...we're just having fun with this for awhile).

[moonpie23]

hey wheat.....would you say that UNC really didn't foul them but 6 times? or would you say they played without the proper aggression?

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

Man I loved it when Bremmon(?) blocked Ed Davis shot and sent it 6 rows back into the stands. It was like someone throwing a football in the stands after a TD...fans were reaching out to catch the ball (like TBS..."Very Funny"). Oh, one more nice play was when Drew thought he had an open lane for a lay-up and from out of nowhere Simmons smacked the shot off the backboard and yelled "Gimme that"! Did anyone else hear that?

To bad ESPN didn't do a Top 10 plays today, instead they had Top 10 NFL plays of the year. C of C was bound to have had perhaps 2 plays in the top 10. Do you think this was by coincidence? Stuart Scott didn't even want to call the highlights on the show. He could have at least said that C of C guards did great and were "as cool as the other side of the pillow" under pressure.

One last statement...Why won't my co-workers (all UNC fans) make eye contact with me today (hmmm), all of a sudden everyone has a lot of work to do and have isolated themselves in their offices (I love it).

[Neals384]

From the AP recap of the game:

Williams has a beach home just north of the city in the Wild Dunes resort and, with the university on winter break, brought the Tar Heels in on Saturday night with the team staying at the swanky Charleston Place hotel.

So there we have the explanation -- the team grew soft being pampered before the game at a swanky hotel!

Next time, barracks at Parris Island.

When scheduling this game, perhaps Mr. Williams put his own desires (spending more time at his "beach home just north of the city in the Wild Dunes resort") ahead of what's best for the team.

Neal

[Wildcat]

But any good coach warns his team about being fooled by a teams "record." That's what we call a dangerous opponent. You've gotta be careful because they might not be all that disciplined, they may not show up to play every night, and they may loose more than they should, BUT: they have the capability of doing things like we witnessed last night. Remember Cinderella in 1983? Remember their record in the conference that season?

Maybe the interpretation of humility on Roy's part was a far reach. I do believe it was a kind gesture to go into their house and play them, regardless of what the other motivations are. I thought it was a way of saying, "hey we are UNC, but we aren't too good, or we are too good, but we will still come into your house, though you are nowhere near ranked, and play you." That's the humbling gesture I was speaking of.

[CDu]

UNC will get better when Roy realizes that he needs to play more of Zeller and McDonald and less of Strickland and the Wear twins...

Yes on Zeller, no on Strickland.

Zeller is clearly better than the Wear twins, who are merely minutes filler at this point in their careers. They'll likely develop into more, but right now they have no real impact on the games that they play. Zeller does. But it should probably be noted that one Wear played minimally and the other Wear probably played most of his minutes at the 3 with Graves and Ginyard out. Once those guys return, I suspect the Wears go to ~3-5 mpg apiece.

As for Strickland, he has to play because he's the ONLY backup that the Heels have at PG. McDonald is probably a better SG (though he struggled badly early in the season), but considering the tempo at which the Heels play, Strickland will have to play significant minutes to sub for Drew.

I think this loss is simply evidence of how inexperienced and thin the Heels are, especially in the backcourt/wing spots. Without Graves and Ginyard (who aren't great by any means but are at least experienced and can be adequate), they had to play two freshman, a sophomore, and Watts. And they had to play David Wear out of position at the 3 as well.

The Heels would have won this game (probably comfortably) with Ginyard and Graves playing. That's not saying THAT much, but their absences were relevant. But ultimately, this team will go as far as the PG combo of Drew/Strickland can develop and/or how much Strickland/McDonald can develop as perimeter scoring threats.

That said, it's always fun to see the Heels take a loss. Hopefully they don't develop sufficiently and aren't prepared to make a deep run come tourney time. And hopefully the learning curve results in several ACC losses along the way.

[PumpkinFunk]

Charleston TV of course grabbed the C of C players on the court at the end of the game for their reactions but the best comment was from freshman Willis Hall, from Charlotte, who just screamed into the camera "I have been for Duke my whole life and came here and this is just great!"

Send that boy a shirt!

Apparently he turned down a Duke Football offer to play basketball at Charleston, too.

[MChambers]

Yes on Zeller, no on Strickland.

Zeller is clearly better than the Wear twins, who are merely minutes filler at this point in their careers. They'll likely develop into more, but right now they have no real impact on the games that they play. Zeller does. But it should probably be noted that one Wear played minimally and the other Wear probably played most of his minutes at the 3 with Graves and Ginyard out. Once those guys return, I suspect the Wears go to ~3-5 mpg apiece.

As for Strickland, he has to play because he's the ONLY backup that the Heels have at PG. McDonald is probably a better SG (though he struggled badly early in the season), but considering the tempo at which the Heels play, Strickland will have to play significant minutes to sub for Drew.

I think this loss is simply evidence of how inexperienced and thin the Heels are, especially in the backcourt/wing spots. Without Graves and Ginyard (who aren't great by any means but are at least experienced and can be adequate), they had to play two freshman, a sophomore, and Watts. And they had to play David Wear out of position at the 3 as well.

The Heels would have won this game (probably comfortably) with Ginyard and Graves playing. That's not saying THAT much, but their absences were relevant. But ultimately, this team will go as far as the PG combo of Drew/Strickland can develop and/or how much Strickland/McDonald can develop as perimeter scoring threats.

That said, it's always fun to see the Heels take a loss. Hopefully they don't develop sufficiently and aren't prepared to make a deep run come tourney time. And hopefully the learning curve results in several ACC losses along the way.

Ginyard and Graves would have made a difference, no doubt. And while Graves isn't all that great, he's the only real "3" the Heels have.

The Wears and Henson just aren't ready to play on the perimeter. Don't know if the Wears ever will be. Carolina has a funny roster this year.

[roywhite]

Ginyard and Graves would have made a difference, no doubt. And while Graves isn't all that great, he's the only real "3" the Heels have.

The Wears and Henson just aren't ready to play on the perimeter. Don't know if the Wears ever will be. Carolina has a funny roster this year.

Exactly. The pieces don't fit together very well.

Can Roy make this work or will it go down as a rebuilding year? Hard to say at this point. At the least, the C of C loss was an entertaining event on a cold winter evening. :)

[Duvall]

Teams will still need to shoot it really well to beat this UNC team, because they will score inside on you, even when the D is packed in.


Is that true, though? Charleston shot 43.6% from the field and 40.6% from 3. That's not bad, but it's far from unconscious.

[MChambers]

But if you look at Pomeroy's ranking of UNC now and the system's prediction for the rest of the season, UNC is on the bubble, with a predicted 7-9 conference record.

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=North%20Carolina

It's early, but I can hope.

Also interesting to see that many ACC teams are predicted to win only 7 or 8 games. I think only Duke, FSU, and Clemson are predicted to have a winning conference record.

[ncexnyc]

I had a lot of fun with this at work last night. The heel fans went running to the computer terminals to checkout the score, because they thought I was messing with them.

Let's have some fun with this for a couple of days, but let's not get to carried away. I seem to recall many of you who are writing off this current crop of holes were the same folks who were attempting to shovel dirt on last year's team after they lost back to back ACC games.

This current team isn't as bad as some of you have tried to make them out to be. Yes, they have issues on the perimeter, but only last night's loss can be called a bad one.

[InSpades]

But if you look at Pomeroy's ranking of UNC now and the system's prediction for the rest of the season, UNC is on the bubble, with a predicted 7-9 conference record.

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=North%20Carolina

It's early, but I can hope.

Also interesting to see that many ACC teams are predicted to win only 7 or 8 games. I think only Duke, FSU, and Clemson are predicted to have a winning conference record.

Is there anything better than talking about if UNC will make the NCAAs? :).

If you look at their schedule so far... they've beaten Michigan State which is obviously an NCAA team and Ohio St. who may be an NCAA team. Based on their performance so far I'd say Ohio St. is clearly in but playing without Turner they could end up having a rough Big 10 season and not making it (they are off to an 0-2 start). Which would leave UNC with 1 win over an NCAA team and 1 bad loss to CoC. Does 7-9 get UNC into the big dance? :). They are lucky they only have to play Clemson and Florida St. once this year.

[airowe]

Ginyard and Graves would have made a difference, no doubt. And while Graves isn't all that great, he's the only real "3" the Heels have.

The Wears and Henson just aren't ready to play on the perimeter. Don't know if the Wears ever will be. Carolina has a funny roster this year.

And it's not as if no one(including roy) should be surprised at this. Lawson and Ellington had tested the waters a year before and were clearly going pro. Instead of bolstering their SF position, they signed three guys projected as PFs (Where? Twins and the muppet) and 2 SGs(McDonald and "System". They have a lot of guys who were talented in high school on their roster but teir vaunted Freshman class has shown thus far that maybe, maybe they peaked in high school. There are 6 PFs on that roster and none of them are the dominant bigs that roy's system needs to work. There are 6 SGs on the roster, with none of them having the ability to push the ball like the PG roy's system needs to be dominant.

While Duke has a whole that is greater than the sum of it's parts, UNC is quite the opposite. It remains to be seen if the recruiter can be the coach that is desperately needed to make the pieces come together.

[jjasper0729]

looking at some of henson's tweets... seems that he pulled a few that have been reported to have been there earlier...

what a lark!

[CDu]

And it's not as if no one(including roy) should be surprised at this. Lawson and Ellington had tested the waters a year before and were clearly going pro. Instead of bolstering their SF position, they signed three guys projected as PFs (Where? Twins and the muppet) and 2 SGs(McDonald and "System". They have a lot of guys who were talented in high school on their roster but teir vaunted Freshman class has shown thus far that maybe, maybe they peaked in high school. There are 6 PFs on that roster and none of them are the dominant bigs that roy's system needs to work. There are 6 SGs on the roster, with none of them having the ability to push the ball like the PG roy's system needs to be dominant.

While Duke has a whole that is greater than the sum of it's parts, UNC is quite the opposite. It remains to be seen if the recruiter can be the coach that is desperately needed to make the pieces come together.

I think a big part of it was expecting (or hoping for) more out of McDonald and Strickland, and having a healthy Ginyard. If the trio of Drew/Strickland/McDonald was ready to play the lion's share of the 80 minutes at guard, then Ginyard could be the primary 3 and Graves could be the backup 3. But the freshmen guards have progressed slowly, and that's meant that Ginyard and Graves have become emphasis players rather than complementary players.

[jjasper0729]

I think it's been shown in a couple of places (not just here, but in "expert's" columns) that Graves isn't much more than an 18-20 minute player at most and you can't extrapolate 30+ minutes into his stats. You get the same no matter how many more minutes he plays

[dukelifer]

I'm here for some reasoned and civil discussion, almost anytime.

This game was absolutely an upset. UNC should have won it. Poor execution late by the Heels. Nobody to blame but themselves.

But upsets happen in basketball, so after many years you just learn to deal with them.

Last night, the biggest issue was the 3 spot. When UNC starts a 6'10" freshman, a natural 4/5 man, at the 3 there are issues. It was compounded by poor play by Strickland at the 2.

Teams will still need to shoot it really well to beat this UNC team, because they will score inside on you, even when the D is packed in.

Graves is the key player at this point with this team, and his shooting is needed to get them in rythem, but even then, we all know he is not Danny Green or Ellington.

It is what it is, as they say.

This team will still beat a lot of people.

It is fun for us Duke fans when UNC loses a game they should win but I do not think this games shows much of anything- other than UNC's young backcourt is not top notch- and everyone knew that. UNC's margin of victory is not what it used to be but they are very good up front and the the guards can have good nights. They are a dangerous team. Still it is always nice to see them sweat.

[Devilsfan]

"How sweet it is!" around the work place with so many dejected soles with their tails beween their legs. I pulled out my sissy blue shirt to wear today to make sure they remembered last night. The excuses are flying. "Gynyard and graves would of made a diiference", "if roy weren't on pain killers" (this was my favorite), and on and on... I took the liberty of reminding them that Gynyard and graves were not Jordan and Pipin or Malone and Stockton or the best one JJ and Sheldon!

[MADevil30]

Is anyone else starting to notice that this year is kind of the perfect storm for us in the UNC rivalry? In the year when we are forced by our roster make-up to start playing zone for the first time in years, UNC has NO ONE who is a reliable 3 pt shooter. Their strength is down low with Thompson and Zeller, and we finally have 4 big men we can throw at them to, if nothing else, eat up fowls (because none of the Hole big men can shoot fts, exhibt A being Thompson missing both in crunch time last night), but even better, we actually have some lock-down defenders in the post (MP1, LT) who can match up with them. On top of that, we have a quicker guard to match up with them (Nolan - didn't even play @CH last year) than we have shown in a few years, and their guards are really turn-over prone. We move the ball well on offense, they play lazier d than normal.

It all adds up to the match up being being in our favor. I'm really starting to look forward to the second Wednesday in February and the first Saturday in March.

[Kedsy]

Is anyone else starting to notice that this year is kind of the perfect storm for us in the UNC rivalry?

I'm not sure I want to go there just yet, but it is kind of amusing to remember how many DBR posters this off-season (as late as October, IIRC) were lamenting how we've fallen hopelessly behind in the rivalry with no chance of catching up this year or anytime soon.

My, how quickly things change.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

... and we finally have 4 big men we can throw at them to, if nothing else, eat up fowls .

Mmmm - Chicken Piccata for dinner tonight ;)

[NSDukeFan]

I think a big part of it was expecting (or hoping for) more out of McDonald and Strickland, and having a healthy Ginyard. If the trio of Drew/Strickland/McDonald was ready to play the lion's share of the 80 minutes at guard, then Ginyard could be the primary 3 and Graves could be the backup 3. But the freshmen guards have progressed slowly, and that's meant that Ginyard and Graves have become emphasis players rather than complementary players.
I agree and would add that I don't think anyone expected a top 5 ranked recruit (ranked just ahead of Xavier Henry) to have very little impact at this point. If I recall correctly, Henson was expected by many to step in and start at the 3 even though he may be a 4.

I'm not sure I want to go there just yet, but it is kind of amusing to remember how many DBR posters this off-season (as late as October, IIRC) were lamenting how we've fallen hopelessly behind in the rivalry with no chance of catching up this year or anytime soon.

My, how quickly things change.

I had forgotten those "woe are us" discussions and do find it a bit humorous to recall that now. I am certainly not discounting the Heels this year and expect them to improve and give us at least 2 very difficult games that could go either way. But, as of right now, the Blue Devils look to be the significantly better team.

[shoutingncu]

Geez, I go off-grid for a while and miss out on a spirited discussion of, ahem, "national" championships and an ugly, ugly rivalry game that made me think to myself, for two hours on an early Saturday in January at least, that I would root for Duke over Kentucky in the tournament, so long as it wasn't in the Final Four.

And now this.

Spin as I might (road game, down two starters, looking ahead, three point shooting, point guard foul trouble), to me, this one simply comes down to those pre-season question marks getting answered.

Going into the season, I had hoped it would compare favorably to either 2006 or 2007. The '06 rebuilding team had talent stretched very thin (starting point guard Bobby Frasor, back-up center Byron Sanders), but the team played with great heart and was fun to watch, win or lose.

2007 was chock full of championship caliber talent, but they played young and inconsistently, took losses that they shouldn't have and never really gelled, in my opinion, into an elite team.

I had hoped this year would be a less talented version of '07 (even on paper, Strickland, McDonald and Henson are not as good as Lawson, Ellington and Wright), but make up for it with some of the heart from '06.

And while I do think they're certainly trying... the talent gap is just too great between this team and the freshmen of '07.

The potential was there, if certain things happened (point guard play, three point shooting, freshman progression... I think only one of the three has been positive), but it's hard to imagine the team improving enough to challenge... in the tournament or the regular season.

I've said twice that I think Carolina and Duke split road games this year. I'm not sure I see that happening now. But it will be fun to find out...

[Jim3k]

Another classic:

"Hahahahahahha RT @eddavis32: I don't understand why everybody on team wanna be rappers now. I tell them stay in school get there education."

Clearly freshman English at UNC hasn't gotten to their vs. there yet.

And "they're" will really confuse him when they do.

[BD80]

Both Ginyard and Graves were in street clothes for this. It's still a nice victory for CofC, but the return of those two will make Orange County CC a different team. ...

Good. I want carowhina to have excuses. Let the delusion continue.


... Maybe they needed Barnes more than we did.

Who??

Who cares?


... Roy did Bobby a favor by going into their home court. Great gesture, and a sign of humility. ...

Bet ol' roy doesn't do it again!

Humility? (Expression deleted to save moderators time and effort). Roy wanted some R&R at his beach house and sets the team up in a luxury hotel. All kinds of humble. BTW - is there a limit to what they can provide scholarship players in terms of luxuriousnes and duration of accomodations?


Sure you can tweet the tweet, but can you gotta mete the feat. :o

Yeah, it's tough rhyming that.

Come come, tis no great feat
to rhyme tweet,
Rather, tis sweet
imagining ol' roy in his luxury suite
basking before a roaring fire to warm his feet,
his team surrounded by bon-bons to eat,
unafraid of an opponent much less fleet,
leading to ignomanious DEFEAT.
But now like rams to the slaughter they bleat, and Tweet.

Anybody want a peanut?


But if you look at Pomeroy's ranking of UNC now and the system's prediction for the rest of the season, UNC is on the bubble, with a predicted 7-9 conference record. ...

It's early, but I can hope. ...

How about hoping for a complete melt down? The pressure of being the defending national champions, ol' roy having a bunch of young, inexperienced players and having to actually coach. Practices will start getting testy, some players feel (based on recruiting rankings and pre-season reports) that they should be getting more playing time, questioning ol' roy's judgment. No "go to" guy in close games, a couple more close losses to inferior teams. Pressure builds. ol' roy blows up in an interview.

Anyone have Matt D's cell phone number?

[airowe]

BD80, that was a beautiful post. Thought this would be the funniest thing on this page, then I read your post.

http://www.midmajority.com/2010/01/tmm-am---january-5-2010.php

[striker219]

Looking at Pomeroy rankings, I think it's interesting to look at Duke/Clemson versus the rest of Duke's schedule, and Carolina/CoC versus the rest of Carolina's schedule.

Duke wins by 20 over 18-Clemson and only plays two teams currently ranked higher (14-Georgetown, 16-Florida St.) for the rest of the season. Carolina loses by a couple to 176-CoC and the the next weakest team they play for the rest of the year is 95-BC.

This means that if Carolina puts this same team on the floor for the rest of the season (without Barnyard or Grave) they won't win at all, right? While of course we don't lose a game and never win by less then 15, right?

Numbers are fun.

[jjasper0729]

gotta love ESPN (they're pro-Duke, right?)

UNC/CoC Instant Classic (http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/unc-fans-can-re-live-last-nights-classic)

[Battierfan01]

A few years ago (2006), we lost JJ, Shelden, Lee, Sean and others to graduation and transfers. The following season, (the 2006-07 season) we were very young and didn't have a lot of experience. In fact I don't think that we even had a senior on the roster. We lost some tough games that year and eventually lost to VCU in the first round of the NCAA's. The entire year the media (mostly ESPN) was ALL OVER Duke. In fact a Duke loss would be the top story on Sportscenter most nights. I remember after our second straight loss to Georgia Tech to start the ACC season, the media was talking about us like we hadn't won a game all year. They even started making comments like: Coach K has lost his ability to coach in this age of college basketball. I never ONE time heard the statement made the Duke was "in a rebuilding year". My guess is that you will never hear these comments by the media this year about Roy and TarHoles. The media will continue to state that "UNC is in a rebuilding year" and that they will be fine next year. This is just a reminder of how the media hates Duke and how much they love the TarHoles.

[shoutingncu]

...I never ONE time heard the statement made the Duke was "in a rebuilding year". My guess is that you will never hear these comments by the media this year about Roy and TarHoles. The media will continue to state that "UNC is in a rebuilding year" and that they will be fine next year. This is just a reminder of how the media hates Duke and how much they love the TarHoles.

Not to add too much fuel to your fire, but what was Duke rebuilding in 2007? Did they lose underclassmen to the draft, or did they have seniors that stayed longer than should have been expected?

I'm not sure the media cares that Duke had been ACC Champions the year before.

Now, had Carolina lost last year in the tournament, followed by what seems to be happening this year... I'm pretty sure the media would be questioning the program. Two flame-outs and then losing to College of Charleston? That would be newsworthy. As was Duke's struggle of '07.

(sorry if this post goes against my yearly resolution to be less snarky... it never works)

[91_92_01_10_15]

Not to add too much fuel to your fire, but what was Duke rebuilding in 2007?

(sorry if this post goes against my yearly resolution to be less snarky... it never works)
No, you don't sound snarky. I think though, that it is reasonable to consider that there would be a recovery period after losing two first-team All-Americans in 2006 (Redick and Williams). Some would call it rebuilding.

And if you call a loss in the Sweet 16 "flaming out," you must not think a lot of Dean Smith and his remarkable string of sweet 16 appearances (it really was remarkable; I'm not being sarcastic.)

[Battierfan01]

Shoutingncu, I agree with some of your points. However I don't agree that if Carolina had lost in the Sweet 16 last year, that the media would be all over Roy like they were all over Coach K in 2007. Duke may not have been trying to "rebuild" after a National Championship, but they were trying to "rebuild" an offense that lost over 70% of their scoring and won 3 ACC Championships and went to a Final Four during that time. To be fair to UNC, the media is never as harsh to progrmas like UConn or Kentucky either, and they have been "rebuilding" for years. No matter what anybody says the media just hates Duke more then any other program.

[uh_no]

Shoutingncu, I agree with some of your points. However I don't agree that if Carolina had lost in the Sweet 16 last year, that the media would be all over Roy like they were all over Coach K in 2007. Duke may not have been trying to "rebuild" after a National Championship, but they were trying to "rebuild" an offense that lost over 70% of their scoring and won 3 ACC Championships and went to a Final Four during that time. To be fair to UNC, the media is never as harsh to progrmas like UConn or Kentucky either, and they have been "rebuilding" for years. No matter what anybody says the media just hates Duke more then any other program.

The media hates duke all the way to having them on national television more than any other team....

[Battierfan01]

The media hates duke all the way to having them on national television more than any other team....

Just because it benefits them and increases their TV ratings. Love em or hate em people love to watch Duke.

[stickdog]

RPI Forecast (http://www.rpiforecast.com/teams/North%20Carolina.html) predicts that UNC's final RPI will be 55, up from its current RPI of 59.

It also predicts UNC will have an 8-8 conference record. It calculates that there is a 93.6% chance that UNC will suffer at least 10 regular season defeats and end up with a final RPI rating lower than 25.

http://www.rpiforecast.com/graphs/hist-North%20Carolina.png

Will UNC's bubble burst? Stay tuned ...

[BD80]

Reporter: "Hey coach, your team just outrebounded your opponent 56-36 and was 24 of 34 (71%) from the line, compared to your opponent's 3-of-6 from the charity stripe. How do you feel?"

ol' roy: "I don't give a sh!t about Carolina right now!"


didn't want to lose sight of what is truly funny right now

[shoutingncu]

Shoutingncu, I agree with some of your points. However I don't agree that if Carolina had lost in the Sweet 16 last year, that the media would be all over Roy like they were all over Coach K in 2007. Duke may not have been trying to "rebuild" after a National Championship, but they were trying to "rebuild" an offense that lost over 70% of their scoring and won 3 ACC Championships and went to a Final Four during that time. To be fair to UNC, the media is never as harsh to progrmas like UConn or Kentucky either, and they have been "rebuilding" for years. No matter what anybody says the media just hates Duke more then any other program.

That's a fair assessment. And I certainly don't want to play the "what if" game imagining Carolina losses, but after 40-12 in '08, I think an '09 loss with all that talent would very likely cause the "He can't win it all with his players" arguments to come up quite loudly.

[Kedsy]

Not to add too much fuel to your fire, but what was Duke rebuilding in 2007? Did they lose underclassmen to the draft, or did they have seniors that stayed longer than should have been expected?

I'm not sure the media cares that Duke had been ACC Champions the year before.

Both JJ and Shelden would have been first round picks in 2005, so the answer to your second question is yes. The answer to your first question is the 2006 Duke team was #1 in the country for most of the year, won the ACC regular season as well as the ACC tournament, and was the overall #1 seed in the NCAA tournament. I don't think the fact that they lost their third game in the NCAAT should have any bearing on whether they were a strong enough team to rebuild, nor on whether they were rebuilding after losing two first-team AAs.

[juise]

I don't think the fact that they lost their third game in the NCAAT should have any bearing on whether they were a strong enough team to rebuild, nor on whether they were rebuilding after losing two first-team AAs.

I agree. This sentiment that the quality of a team is almost exclusively judged by NCAAT performance seems to really be taking over. Maybe I just hadn't been aware of it previously. For instance, ESPN named the winningest program in the decade, in arguably the most difficult conference (with unprecidented performance in the conference tournament), the 5th best program of the decade.

Shoutingncu is definitely a reasonable poster, though, and the other point he made was about the fact that the player losses (Shelden/JJ) Duke incurred in 2006 should have been expected. I would counter with the point that much of the star power Duke recruited to replace them (Deng/Humphries/Livingston) never showed up or didn't stick around long enough to assume a leadership role.

[Kedsy]

Shoutingncu is definitely a reasonable poster, though, and the other point he made was about the fact that the player losses (Shelden/JJ) Duke incurred in 2006 should have been expected.

Well, UNC's losses from last year were just as expected as Duke's 2007 losses from 2006. Everyone knew a year in advance that none of Hansbrough, Lawson, Ellington, and Green were going to stick around past the 2009 championship game.

The original point was that there's a perception that this year's UNC team is rebuilding but 2007 Duke was proof of decline. I continue to support those who say 2007 was a rebuilding year for us as much as this year is a rebuilding year for them.

[juise]

The original point was that there's a perception that this year's UNC team is rebuilding but 2007 Duke was proof of decline. I continue to support those who say 2007 was a rebuilding year for us as much as this year is a rebuilding year for them.

Agreed again. My second paragraph was actually more responding to shoutingncu than to you. You addressed the point about tournament success and I was attempting to address the point about player losses. Your point about Ellington/Lawson/Green is a good one, too.



I definitely see similarities between this year's UNC team and the 06/07 Duke team. I would be pleased to see Carolina go 8-8 in conference, but (in reference to the "bubble" thread) I really don't see there being any doubt about them making the NCAAT. Duke went 22-10, 8-8, lost in the first round of the ACCT and got a 6-seed. That's nothing like the mediocre Arizona teams (for example) that have earned 8/9 seeds last decade. I would be pleasantly surprised if Carolina ends up lower than a 5-seed.

Let's also keep in mind that the 06/07 Duke team gave UNC all they could handle in Cameron that year, leading for the first 3/4 of the game. I will be ecstatic if Duke beats UNC in all of the team's meetings this year and finishes first in the ACC regular season. It's been a way too long since that happened and I definitely do not take such things for granted.

[chrisheery]

I love that they lost and all, but we almost lost to Rhode Island last year. Rhode Island. At home. So, we should just be glad that kid missed that last 3, I guess. I hope they have a terrible year too, but I don't think we can bank on it . . . yet.

[pfrduke]

I love that they lost and all, but we almost lost to Rhode Island last year. Rhode Island. At home. So, we should just be glad that kid missed that last 3, I guess. I hope they have a terrible year too, but I don't think we can bank on it . . . yet.

Well, last year's Rhode Island team did go 23-11, 11-5 in the A-10, and got an NIT bid. They finished the season 71st in the Pomeroy Ratings. I don't think Charleston is likely to get that high.

That said, this games strikes me as one of those 5-20-5 games - each time has 5 games a year where they play above their heads, 20 where they play average (for that team), and 5 where they play below what they should do. This has to be a "third 5" game for UNC.

[jimsumner]

FWIW, the '07 Duke team was much younger than this year's UNC team. No recruited seniors and one recruited junior (Nelson). McRoberts, Paulus, McClure, and Pocius were sophomores, Scheyer, Henderson, Thomas and Zoubek freshmen.

By contrast, a healthy 2010 UNC starts three upperclassmen, fifth-year senior Ginyard, fourth-year junior Graves and true senior Thompson.

As far as the '06 Duke team is concerned, that team won the ACC regular season at 14-2, won the ACC Tournament, was ranked number one in the final AP poll, had the consensus national POY, the national defensive player of the year and finished the season 32-4. The disappointing and premature end to that season shouldn't obscure its many accomplishments.

I understand why UNC's struggles have resulted in much mirth on this board. For the record, I voted them number two in the ACC preseason and may well have overrated them.

But I'm more than a little wary of those 7-9 ACC prognostications. There are some real back-court issues and Roy Williams has the public persona of someone preparing for a tax audit. But this team still has considerable resources and I expect them to come back from the abyss and be a credible ACC team this season, maybe more than credible.

[juise]

FWIW, the '07 Duke team was much younger than this year's UNC team. No recruited seniors and one recruited junior (Nelson). McRoberts, Paulus, McClure, and Pocius were sophomores, Scheyer, Henderson, Thomas and Zoubek freshmen.

By contrast, a healthy 2010 UNC starts three upperclassmen, fifth-year senior Ginyard, fourth-year junior Graves and true senior Thompson.


Those are good points about the experience on that UNC roster, Jim. I am still concerned about their front court scoring and depth. Let's not forget that they are undefeated in conference play! :p

[Duvall]

I love that they lost and all, but we almost lost to Rhode Island last year. Rhode Island. At home. So, we should just be glad that kid missed that last 3, I guess. I hope they have a terrible year too, but I don't think we can bank on it . . . yet.

Is it time to mention again that College of Charleston isn't actually good? That they lost to Clemson by 39, and don't belong in the same conversation as last year's Rhode Island team?

[FerryFor50]

Well, last year's Rhode Island team did go 23-11, 11-5 in the A-10, and got an NIT bid. They finished the season 71st in the Pomeroy Ratings. I don't think Charleston is likely to get that high.

That said, this games strikes me as one of those 5-20-5 games - each time has 5 games a year where they play above their heads, 20 where they play average (for that team), and 5 where they play below what they should do. This has to be a "third 5" game for UNC.

Plus, Duke didn't actually lose....;)

[davekay1971]

Best line of the week...on local Charlotte sports radio (The Chris McLain show, or Mac Attack, or whatever they call it).

Host 1: "When was the last time Carolina lost in front of 5,000 people?"

Host 2: "The Meineke Car Care Bowl"

[shoutingncu]

I agree. This sentiment that the quality of a team is almost exclusively judged by NCAAT performance seems to really be taking over. Maybe I just hadn't been aware of it previously. For instance, ESPN named the winningest program in the decade, in arguably the most difficult conference (with unprecidented performance in the conference tournament), the 5th best program of the decade.

Shoutingncu is definitely a reasonable poster...

This is true (your overall post, not necessarily that last part quoted ;)), but let's look at it another way (although this is more a Rivalry Thread segue, I'd imagine).

How many Final Fours has Duke been to? Fourteen? Take the last win away from each of those, be it championship or elite eight. Duke would still be the fourth winningest program in history and would still have the most wins of last decade. But would you be the same elite program that you are on a national scale? Does Syracuse belong in the "Blue Blood" conversation along with Kansas and UCLA and Indiana? Because the Orange have the fifth most wins overall, ahead of two of those. On the national scene, the national championship is what makes all those regular season wins count.

Another example: Say a team from, I don't know, a really long time ago goes undefeated for the season while playing in arguably the most difficult conference, or say, region. And an organization decides to go back and recognize that team years later as the nation's best, even though the dominance really only played out in region. Should that team's accomplishment be lauded on a national scale, or in the grand scheme, is that team just the best team in conference at the time?

Duke's sustained excellence, with or without championships, is definitely an admirable accomplishment. But without the championships, I'm not sure it would matter to anyone outside Tobacco Road.

[Kedsy]

Duke's sustained excellence, with or without championships, is definitely an admirable accomplishment. But without the championships, I'm not sure it would matter to anyone outside Tobacco Road.

Does that mean Dean Smith didn't matter until 1982?

[shoutingncu]

Does that mean Dean Smith didn't matter until 1982?

Coach K wasn't awarded the fifth best coach of last decade. Duke, the program, was considered fifth best (by ESPN, I believe is what was said).

So Dean Smith kept the program of North Carolina very good prior to '82, just as Krzyzewski did with Duke in the late 80's, but I feel it's the championships that make both schools elite. Once again, Syracuse. Boeheim was certainly an elite coach prior to 2003. But is Syracuse an elite program in the same way that Duke, Carolina, Kansas, etc. are?

Now I do think it's a combination of sustained winning and championships. NC State won it all with the greatest player our conference has ever had. And then won it again through magic. Two championships make them better than most programs, as far as that metric goes. But I wouldn't consider them elite.

Kansas is the opposite. Prior to 40-12, how long had it been since Manning's group won the school's second, and how long had it been in between those two? But their overall wins during that time and continued post season success (Final Fours) kept them elite, in my mind.

[striker219]

I know this is late to the party, but I made this up for my work neighbor buddy, huge Carolina fan.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2754/4258707880_e4f9b77125_b.jpg