RESOLVED: Krzyzewski's management of the rotation will bite us in the...

[Duvall]

Omnibus thread for discussion of minutes, or lack thereof.

[BlueintheFace]

Dude, uncool (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=347033&postcount=65)

;)

[camion]

For any game that we lose this year a contributing factor will be that one or more players had a subpar shooting night. It will not be possible to prove that the poor shooting wasn't caused by tired legs. Those who believe will continue to believe; those who don't will continue to dispute.

The End

[KenTankerous]

This thread should be chock full of useful information to the person that wins that Iron Duke auction item to coach Duke in an ACC game at Cameron while Coach K post his thoughts and suggestions on DBR.

[davekay1971]

Duke just beat a top 25 team by 20 points. It's obvious that we're not going to make the final four because Kyle didn't get to rest the last 2 minutes of this game. What was Coach K thinking?

Phew, I have now completed one of the mandatory post subjects to be a complete DBR poster.

got the "coach K doesn't develop the bench/rest the starters enough" subject done.

Next up: We're too reliant on the 3
After that: We need to recruit a super-athletic one-and-done stud.

On my way, baby!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Duke just beat a top 25 team by 20 points. It's obvious that we're not going to make the final four because Kyle didn't get to rest the last 2 minutes of this game. What was Coach K thinking?

Phew, I have now completed one of the mandatory post subjects to be a complete DBR poster.

got the "coach K doesn't develop the bench/rest the starters enough" subject done.
1A all the way, baby, 1A.

If you don't know what 1A is, go read the HPR. If you don't know what the HPR is, you haven't been around here very long, have you?

[BlueintheFace]

Players Over 30 MPG

85-86= Johnny Dawkins (33.1), Tommy Amaker (30.2)
86-87= Tommy Amaker (35.6), Danny Ferry (33.2)
87-88= Danny Ferry (32.5)
88-89= Danny Ferry (33.2), Quin Snyder (30.4
89-90= Bobby Hurley (33.4), Phil Henderson (31.5), Christian Laettner (30.0)
90-91= Christian Laettner (30.2), Bobby Hurley (34.7)
91-92= Bobby Hurley (33.6), Christian Laettner (32.2), Thomas Hill (30.6), Grant Hill (30.3), Brian Davis (30.9)
92-93= Bobby Hurley (35.6), Thomas Hill (31.9), Grant Hill (31.6)
93-94= Grant Hill (35.7), Cherokee Parks (30.5), Chris Collins (31.0), Antonio Lang (30.1)
94-95= Cherokee Parks (35.2)
95-96= Jeff Capel (34.9), Chris Collins (34.6), Ricky Price (31.9)
96-97= None
97-98= None
98-99= William Avery (31.0), Trajan Langdon (31.0)
99-00= Shane Battier (35.5), Chris Carrawell (35.6), Jason Williams (34.0)
00-01= Jason Williams (31.8), Shane Battier (34.9)
01-02= Chris Duhon (35.1), Jason Williams (3.6), Mike Dunleavy Jr. (32.4)
02-03= Chris Duhon (36), Dahntay Jones (30.7), JJ Redick (30.7)
03-04= Chris Duhon (35.4), JJ Redick (31.1), Luol Deng (31.1), and Daniel Ewing (30.6)
04-05= JJ Redick (37.3), Daniel Ewing (34.5), Shelden Williams (33.6)
05-06= JJ Redick (37.1), Shelden Williams (33.3), Greg Paulus (32.3)
06-07= Josh McRoberts (35.3), Jon Scheyer (33.7), Greg Paulus (32.4), Demarcus Nelson (31.9)
07-08= Demarcus Nelson (30.9)
08-09= Jon Scheyer (32.8), Kyle Singler (32.2)
09-10= Jon Scheyer (35), Kyle Singler (33.7), Nolan Smith (33.0)

Those are the numbers and I leave it to you to make comparisons and extrapolate as needed for now, but I do have one thing to say:

The difference between 35 mpg and 30 mpg in a 30 game season is 150 minutes of game time. That is literally 2.5 hours of hard basketball over the course of ~5 months. These 18-22 yr old kids practice/ lift/ exercise/ etc... for hours upon hours every day. There is NO WAY those 2.5 hours are the difference between fresh and tired legs in March. If practices are consistently long and grueling, then that might be a different story.... but lots of game time... no way. Does anybody disagree with this?

[-jk]

Does anybody disagree with this?

Is this a rhetorical question? ;) There's a wide array of viewpoints expressed on the board.

I do think practice has more to do with the physical fatigue than game time.

-jk

[Wander]

The difference between 35 mpg and 30 mpg in a 30 game season is 150 minutes of game time. That is literally 2.5 hours of hard basketball over the course of ~5 months. These 18-22 yr old kids practice/ lift/ exercise/ etc... for hours upon hours every day. There is NO WAY those 2.5 hours are the difference between fresh and tired legs in March. If practices are consistently long and grueling, then that might be a different story.... but lots of game time... no way. Does anybody disagree with this?

On the other hand, there are reasons that there aren't any coaches in the country who play their five starters 40 minutes every game.

[BlueintheFace]

On the other hand, there are reasons that there aren't any coaches in the country who play their five starters 40 minutes every game.

Yes, and I think common sense says it has to do with players' performance in each specific game, not in March. I am pretty sure if you asked each coach why he doesn't play player X 40 minutes, they would answer that it is because he would be less effective in that game.

[-jk]

Yes, and I think common sense says it has to do with players' performance in each specific game, not in March. I am pretty sure if you asked each coach why he doesn't play player X 40 minutes, they would answer that it is because he would be less effective in that game.

In a slightly different vein, I do know that K has kept stats on player productivity vs. minutes played in a game. One season, Ricky Price (if memory serves; I'm getting old) was good for about 28 minutes a game. After that, he started making way more mental mistakes. K managed his playing time so that he was available towards the end of the game with some of those 28 productive minutes left.

I feel sure K still does it with all of his meaningful players. This also goes to the per-40-minute stats discussed earlier: some players have a 40 minute game in them. Some don't. One of K's jobs is to balance and maximize everyone's productive time as best he can. It's a bit more subtle than just minutes per game.

-jk

[Wander]

Yes, and I think common sense says it has to do with players' performance in each specific game, not in March. I am pretty sure if you asked each coach why he doesn't play player X 40 minutes, they would answer that it is because he would be less effective in that game.

I agree with you. I have no worries whatsoever about long term fatigue. My concern is only about developing a more balanced team by the end of the season.

[BlueintheFace]

Carolina 08-09= Wayne Ellington (30.4), Ty Lawson (30.0), Tyler Hansbrough (30.3)
Kansas 07-08= Mario Chalmers (30.0)
Florida 06-07= Taurean Green (33.2) and Lee Humphrey (30.4)
Florida 05-06= Taurean Green (33.4)
Carolina 04-05= Raymond Felton (31.7)
UConn 03-04= Ben Gordon (34.5), Taliek Brown (30.5), Emeka Okafor (32.4)
Syracuse 02-03= Carmelo Anthony (36.4), Gerry McNamara (35.3), Hakim Warrick (32.7)
Maryland 01-02= Juan Dixon (33.6), Steve Blake (32.0)

[DevilHorns]

Carolina 08-09= Wayne Ellington (30.4), Ty Lawson (30.0), Tyler Hansbrough (30.3)
Kansas 07-08= Mario Chalmers (30.0)
Florida 06-07= Taurean Green (33.2) and Lee Humphrey (30.4)
Florida 05-06= Taurean Green (33.4)
Carolina 04-05= Raymond Felton (31.7)
UConn 03-04= Ben Gordon (34.5), Taliek Brown (30.5), Emeka Okafor (32.4)
Syracuse 02-03= Carmelo Anthony (36.4), Gerry McNamara (35.3), Hakim Warrick (32.7)
Maryland 01-02= Juan Dixon (33.6), Steve Blake (32.0)

Remember the difference between 35ish min and 30ish min is pretty sizable. If you have a bench rotation that can reliably soak up about 1/4 of a game for some of your stars without giving up too much ground then I would classify a team as having solid depth. If you're running at an avg of about 35ish, then I would classify you as reliant.

Though this stat becomes difficult to read into given the varying prowess of different opponents. I'm guessing some blowouts significantly change these averages.

[Duvall]

Remember the difference between 35ish min and 30ish min is pretty sizable. If you have a bench rotation that can reliably soak up about 1/4 of a game for some of your stars without giving up too much ground then I would classify a team as having solid depth. If you're running at an avg of about 35ish, then I would classify you as reliant.

Well, Duke *doesn't* have solid depth at the guard and wing positions - the only backup Duke has there is an 18-year-old freshman. So Duke *is* reliant on Scheyer, Smith and Singler, and if something happens to one or more of them Duke will be well and truly boned. But that's a separate question from whether those three are going wear out.

[BlueintheFace]

Remember the difference between 35ish min and 30ish min is pretty sizable.

Sizable in what way? Is being more reliant on your star players to the tune of 5 extra mpg detrimental? In what significant way?

[DevilHorns]

Well, Duke *doesn't* have solid depth at the guard and wing positions - the only backup Duke has there is an 18-year-old freshman. So Duke *is* reliant on Scheyer, Smith and Singler, and if something happens to one or more of them Duke will be well and truly boned. But that's a separate question from whether those three are going wear out.

It was my take that most posters aren't concerned with whether the three S' will "wear out" by playing a lot of minutes in individual games throughout the year.... it was more that we would become overly reliant on them and then in certain situations where a solid contributing bench player would be useful or even necessary we would fall short. The argument therefore is to try and develop players like dawkins by giving him more than just a few minutes since he is almost the entirety of our guard depth. Maybe that may payoff down the road this year during the tourney?

Just want to make clear that I was completely in agreement with how the minutes were heavy on the 3 amigos this game. Clemson is a hard team to face due to their press and you need experienced ball-handlers to rely on.

[DevilHorns]

Sizable in what way? Is being more reliant on your star players to the tune of 5 extra mpg detrimental? In what significant way?

This is certainly just my opinion. I have no data to support any of it, but I believe that if you have a deep bench that can keep your top players a little more fresh by giving them 3-5 min more bench rest then you are giving yourself a more peak performance overall as a team and better flexibility in case of foul trouble for thos few games a year when you have foul trouble.

Luckily, neither Kyle, Nolan, or Jon tend to get into foul trouble and are less likely to have that problem since they by position play on the perimeter.

[mgtr]

OK, if I agree that Coach K has no concept of the correct management of playing time, particularly at the end of games, then we have to start looking to dump him and get a different coach. Any of the Duke assistants would be a waste, since they would just be Coach K writ small. We need new blood -- say, how about the Herricks, are they still around? Of course the team would need refresher courses on how many point you get for making a three point basket. Tim Floyd is clearly looking for work, and John Calipari will be looking once more in a few years.
Sounds as if there are plenty of opportunities out there for us to latch on to a real scumbag. At that point, the quailing about minutes played would cease immediately, since everybody would be busy looking over their shoulders for the NCAA gestapo to swoop down upon the Duke campus and make allegations which would make the Lax mess seem tame.
Aren't we happy that we have none of those problems, and probably won't have any of them, and just have to complain about some players getting too much playing time?

[Wander]

BlueintheFace - here are the numbers I am concerned about. Here are the scoring averages for the top five players on the recent national champions, our three national champions, and our current team:

Duke 2010: 19, 18, 16, 9, 7
UNC 2009: 21, 17, 16, 13, 11
Kansas 2008: 13, 13, 13, 11, 10
Florida 2007: 13, 13, 13, 12, 11
Florida 2006: 14, 13, 13, 11, 11
UNC 2005: 18, 16, 13, 13, 11
UConn 2004: 19, 18, 11, 9, 9
Syracuse 2003: 23, 15, 13, 11, 9
Duke 2001: 22, 20, 13, 13, 12
Duke 1992: 22, 15, 14, 13, 11
Duke 1991: 20, 12, 12, 11, 11

We all remember that Coach K said one of our problems last year was that it felt like we were playing three on five. In my opinion he was dead-on and it's something we need to work at getting better at this season. And we are working at it. But I say we can do better.

I'm not panicking and asking for a massive lineup change or for Ryan Kelly to get some huge jump in playing time. But, yes, I really do think that we'll be a better team in the long run if we play our fourth leading scorer more than five minutes and start using Mason more as he continues to work his way back from his injury throughout January. I'm obviously very happy with a 20 point victory over a ranked team.

[BlueintheFace]

BlueintheFace - here are the numbers I am concerned about. Here are the scoring averages for the top five players on the recent national champions, our three national champions, and our current team:

Duke 2010: 19, 18, 16, 9, 7
UNC 2009: 21, 17, 16, 13, 11
Kansas 2008: 13, 13, 13, 11, 10
Florida 2007: 13, 13, 13, 12, 11
Florida 2006: 14, 13, 13, 11, 11
UNC 2005: 18, 16, 13, 13, 11
UConn 2004: 19, 18, 11, 9, 9
Syracuse 2003: 23, 15, 13, 11, 9
Duke 2001: 22, 20, 13, 13, 12
Duke 1992: 22, 15, 14, 13, 11
Duke 1991: 20, 12, 12, 11, 11

We all remember that Coach K said one of our problems last year was that it felt like we were playing three on five. In my opinion he was dead-on and it's something we need to work at getting better at this season. And we are working at it. But I say we can do better.

I'm not panicking and asking for a massive lineup change or for Ryan Kelly to get some huge jump in playing time. But, yes, I really do think that we'll be a better team in the long run if we play our fourth leading scorer more than five minutes and start using Mason more as he continues to work his way back from his injury throughout January. I'm obviously very happy with a 20 point victory over a ranked team.

...worked for Carolina last year. Additionally, if our 4th leading scorer is a spot up three point shooter who can't create his own shot, drive the ball, handle the ball, or play good defense... that is a problem. We NEED a post player to be the 4th leading scorer and the post players are getting the minutes and opportunities.

[Duvall]

...worked for Carolina last year. Additionally, if our 4th leading scorer is a spot up three point shooter who can't create his own shot, drive the ball, handle the ball, or play good defense... that is a problem.

Not to mention the fact that most of Dawkins' minutes come in relief of Singler, Scheyer or Smith, which would do little to relieve the "3 on 5" problem.

That said, I have no problem with Dawkins getting plenty of minutes on nights when he isn't struggling and facing a terrible matchup. Like last night.

[InSpades]

Could we possibly not jump to conclusions based on the results of *1* game. Yes, it was our 1st ACC game... it was also a game against probably the must aggressive defensive team we will face all year long. It's very possible that K just felt that Ryan and Andre weren't quite ready to face that kind of defense and therefore he went with his only other option (which is to play his 3 best players a lot, which isn't exactly a bad option).

Let's also remember that while Elliot Williams didn't play that much in early ACC action last year, he certainly didn't waste away on the bench. He made a lot of progress and became a huge part of the team as the season wore on.

I also don't think the "playing 3 on 5" will be as big of a deal this year as it was last year. While I loved McClure, he wasn't nearly the threat that our other players are this year. Lance has also seemed to make some progress on being a bigger offensive threat this year (if his free throw shooting can translate into his mid-range jumpers then we are in business there).

[dukejim1]

Kobe Bryant 36.5 MPG career(38.5 this year), Lebron James 40 MPG for career, Dwayne Wade 37.8 mpg for career. Two of these guys started straight out of high school so physical maturity could be considered comparable (although Lebron probably doesn't compare to anybody). More games, more travel, probably more night life and they have always been ready for the playoffs. So three veteran guys playing big minutes on the perimeter does not bother me as much as some people. Go Devils.

[jv001]

It only took one game into the ACC regular season for the "too many minutes" complaining to begin. Enjoy a very good win against a pretty good team. Wow, if this keeps up all year, I will scroll thru plenty of posts. Go Duke!

[NSDukeFan]

Could we possibly not jump to conclusions based on the results of *1* game.

Unfortunately not. There is always a minority of posters who give the board a bit of a manic-depressive feel, though much less so than other boards.

[Kedsy]

I don't think the "3 on 5" problem was as much about points (or minutes) as it was about offensive threat. For example, Villanova was able to double-team G pretty much the entire game without fear, because even when wide-open, Dave McClure and last year's Lance and Z and freshman Elliot Williams weren't a significant threat to make Nova pay for the double-team.

This year, to me, it feels different. Every single player on our team will score if they get the ball in an advantageous position. And they all attempt to get into position. If they are unguarded they will score, which means opposing teams have to think twice about a double-team.

Put another way, as long as our supporting players have to be guarded, it's not "3 on 5" even if those supporting players don't score much.

[COYS]

I don't think the "3 on 5" problem was as much about points (or minutes) as it was about offensive threat. For example, Villanova was able to double-team G pretty much the entire game without fear, because even when wide-open, Dave McClure and last year's Lance and Z and freshman Elliot Williams weren't a significant threat to make Nova pay for the double-team.

This year, to me, it feels different. Every single player on our team will score if they get the ball in an advantageous position. And they all attempt to get into position. If they are unguarded they will score, which means opposing teams have to think twice about a double-team.

Put another way, as long as our supporting players have to be guarded, it's not "3 on 5" even if those supporting players don't score much.

Our ball movement is also better than it was last year. Scheyer, who was already good, is even more improved. Nolan has improved his court vision significantly since the beginning of this season and seems like a totally different player compared to last season. G, for all his gifts, wasn't much of a passer for us last year. Singler is significantly better in this regard. Zoubs is also improved. I think Mason and possibly Kelly will also prove to be excellent at keeping the ball moving on offense. This will go a long way toward limiting that 3 on 5 look.

[dw0827]

The difference between 35 mpg and 30 mpg in a 30 game season is 150 minutes of game time. That is literally 2.5 hours of hard basketball over the course of ~5 months. These 18-22 yr old kids practice/ lift/ exercise/ etc... for hours upon hours every day. There is NO WAY those 2.5 hours are the difference between fresh and tired legs in March. If practices are consistently long and grueling, then that might be a different story.... but lots of game time... no way. Does anybody disagree with this?

I agree with you.

I have always felt that fatigue is more of a mental phenomenon than physical. Remember Kyle as a freshman? People said that he got physically fatigued near the end of the year. I wonder. I rather believe that he succumbed to the mental grind of playing high-level high-stakes ACC basketball.

When I was 18 - 21, I could play ball non-stop for hours and hours every day . . . endlessly. And so can these guys. In fact, it's fun. The difference between what I did and what these guys are going through, I suspect, has to do with the pressure of performing on a national stage where the stakes are so high.

I'll bet that the coaching staff spends more time worrying about the care and feeding of the team psyche - individually and collectively - than they do physical conditioning.

I'm not saying physical fatigue doesn't exist . . . but I submit that mental fatigue often leads to physical fatigue. Just ask someone suffering from depression.

[Devilsfan]

It is what it is. If we had landed two more players of the Scheyer, Smith, Singler quaity then we might have more scoring balance. Our defencive effort by Lance has been stellar, imo. As soon as Dawkins grows up and plays less tentative we will have another scorer. We don't have the bench to play a Clemson with more than a 8 man rotation as witnessed yesterday. You have to be a MAN to play a Clemson tough. We pay millions to coach and his staff, deservedly so. When you pay out that kind of money you sure as hell had better not be an Al Davis type micro-manager. I'm satified I hope the rest of you are.

[ncexnyc]

I agree with you.

I have always felt that fatigue is more of a mental phenomenon than physical. Remember Kyle as a freshman? People said that he got physically fatigued near the end of the year. I wonder. I rather believe that he succumbed to the mental grind of playing high-level high-stakes ACC basketball.

When I was 18 - 21, I could play ball non-stop for hours and hours every day . . . endlessly. And so can these guys. In fact, it's fun. The difference between what I did and what these guys are going through, I suspect, has to do with the pressure of performing on a national stage where the stakes are so high.

I'll bet that the coaching staff spends more time worrying about the care and feeding of the team psyche - individually and collectively - than they do physical conditioning.

I'm not saying physical fatigue doesn't exist . . . but I submit that mental fatigue often leads to physical fatigue. Just ask someone suffering from depression.

Thank you very much for your post. In the past I've tried to point out it's a combination of factors that can contribute to people being fatigued at the end of the season.
Unfortunately, some want to keep one component (pratice time) and dismiss the other two (game minutes and mental stress).

[PSurprise]

Looking at the poll (so far) of whether posters would like a few more losses and a deeper run in the tourney, it would seem that people would want more bench players getting more time, with a result (a BIG maybe) of a few more losses, especially during this part of the year.

We all know that all tourney games are hard, mentally and physically and the officiating can also be a little suspect. What happens if Jon and/or Nolan foul out or each get 4 fouls in the tourney (or get injured??) I would want AD with alittle more good experience from ACC play in there than throwing him in with little experience. Same thing with Kelly. These guys might surprise the team too-we all know they have some skills.
Just my $.02.

[Duvall]

Looking at the poll (so far) of whether posters would like a few more losses and a deeper run in the tourney, it would seem that people would want more bench players getting more time, with a result (a BIG maybe) of a few more losses, especially during this part of the year.

We all know that all tourney games are hard, mentally and physically and the officiating can also be a little suspect. What happens if Jon and/or Nolan foul out or each get 4 fouls in the tourney (or get injured??) I would want AD with alittle more good experience from ACC play in there than throwing him in with little experience. Same thing with Kelly. These guys might surprise the team too-we all know they have some skills.
Just my $.02.

Well, okay, but what's makes you think that Dawkins won't have good experience by tournament time? This was only the second time all season that he's gotten less than 15 minutes in a game.

Kelly is trickier, because we're splitting 80 frontcourt minutes five ways.

[PSurprise]

Well, okay, but what's makes you think that Dawkins won't have good experience by tournament time? This was only the second time all season that he's gotten less than 15 minutes in a game.

Kelly is trickier, because we're splitting 80 frontcourt minutes five ways.

Yeah, Kelly is a bit trickier-for him, it would hopefully be more confidence and a better game for years in the future. He won't always be splitting minutes with so many guys. I just hope K has enough confidence in these guys to play them meaningful minutes this time of year which will help their development for bigger games later on.

Everyone too seems to blame Coach K (a lot)for lack of minutes. These guys need to work HARD for their time. If they don't, they don't deserve the minutes. I trust Coach K to do what he thinks is right. He's had a little bit of success in the past. :)

[dukeimac]

This is what makes me laugh about this website!

Great coaches we have here, just how many NCAA banners do you collectively have hanging in the gym named after you? Let's see, one of you printed one out on your HP printer and have it hanging over your bed. Another one used their kodak printer and that banner is hanging over your dresser, another one used a canon printer and has that banner is hanging over his mirror while another one has the banner hanging over his bedroom door. Okay, that is 4 and you have more than Coach K so lets just all give way to these experts.

So having that, who is our next coach. Billy is all done with his issues in Kentucky or maybe Matt Dourgthy (?), sounds like his days at SMU are numbered or maybe a guy from the mid majors, we could call on them.

Or maybe it is that guys are not developing, thus Coach K doesn't have much of a bench and that he is working on developing them in practice, where they can get confidence rather than play them in a big time conference game where if they make a mistake their confidence goes out the window for the rest of the year. Ooops the bench just got shorter.

This all sounds so ridicules. You don't know what is going on in practice so you have no clue on why Coach K isn't playing guys more. I remember when this site was sooooooo high on guys like King and Czyz and where the heck are they? Oh but their youtube videos show just how GREAT they are...

This dribble really has me questioning the intelligence of Duke fans. Actually, I've been questioning it for a while, during the discussions of football on a website titled "Basketball Report" or discussions about other schools and their basketball teams or how you have been on another schools blog. Seriously, I've only come to one conclusion Duke has no better fans than UNC.

[jafarr1]

This is what makes me laugh about this website!

This dribble really has me questioning the intelligence of Duke fans. Actually, I've been questioning it for a while, during the discussions of football on a website titled "Basketball Report" or discussions about other schools and their basketball teams or how you have been on another schools blog. Seriously, I've only come to one conclusion Duke has no better fans than UNC.

The irony is strong in this one.

(FWIW, while you make some valid points, starting off a rant with the "how many banners have you hung in your gym" chestnut and finishing by essentially calling Duke fans stupid isn't going to win you many points on this or any other message board.)

[ncexnyc]

This is what makes me laugh about this website!

Great coaches we have here, just how many NCAA banners do you collectively have hanging in the gym named after you? Let's see, one of you printed one out on your HP printer and have it hanging over your bed. Another one used their kodak printer and that banner is hanging over your dresser, another one used a canon printer and has that banner is hanging over his mirror while another one has the banner hanging over his bedroom door. Okay, that is 4 and you have more than Coach K so lets just all give way to these experts.

So having that, who is our next coach. Billy is all done with his issues in Kentucky or maybe Matt Dourgthy (?), sounds like his days at SMU are numbered or maybe a guy from the mid majors, we could call on them.

Or maybe it is that guys are not developing, thus Coach K doesn't have much of a bench and that he is working on developing them in practice, where they can get confidence rather than play them in a big time conference game where if they make a mistake their confidence goes out the window for the rest of the year. Ooops the bench just got shorter.

This all sounds so ridicules. You don't know what is going on in practice so you have no clue on why Coach K isn't playing guys more. I remember when this site was sooooooo high on guys like King and Czyz and where the heck are they? Oh but their youtube videos show just how GREAT they are...

This dribble really has me questioning the intelligence of Duke fans. Actually, I've been questioning it for a while, during the discussions of football on a website titled "Basketball Report" or discussions about other schools and their basketball teams or how you have been on another schools blog. Seriously, I've only come to one conclusion Duke has no better fans than UNC.

If you sincerely believe that a player can improve their game, then why can't another person improve what they do in life? How many wins does Coach Knight have? How many titles? I would guess many on this board would say he has his flaws. Just because Coach K has established the outstanding resume he has, doesn't mean that he is perfect as either a person or a coach. As we've seen in the last year alone he has made changes in the way he does things. From adjusting practices to working on integrating a zone defense into our system.

What's truly ridiculous is for you to completely shutout any comments which may differ from what is currently being done and dismissing them in the fashion you did.

[Kedsy]

Looking at the poll (so far) of whether posters would like a few more losses and a deeper run in the tourney, it would seem that people would want more bench players getting more time, with a result (a BIG maybe) of a few more losses, especially during this part of the year.

I wouldn't base too many decisions on the results of that poll. Perhaps if those early losses could guarantee a deeper run in the tourney, we could have a reasonable discussion about it, but obviously it can't be guaranteed. More than that, there's a logical disconnect here. Just because people would trade some early losses for some late wins it doesn't necessarily follow that the bench should be playing more now, because there's no objective proof that playing the bench wins national championships.

Coach K likes to win NCs. My guess is he believes the decisions he makes give him the best chance to do so. Put another way, he can't possibly think that giving the young bench players more time now will help him win in the NCAAT, because if he thought that, he'd do it.

Obviously you don't have to agree with him, but as other posters have pointed out, (a) if we're weighing the relative benefits of a DBR poster's opinion vs. Coach K's, K's opinion should probably be given the benefit of the doubt; and (b) he's not going to change because the fans want him to, so we might as well just sit back and accept it.

[oldnavy]

Players Over 30 MPG

85-86= Johnny Dawkins (33.1), Tommy Amaker (30.2)
86-87= Tommy Amaker (35.6), Danny Ferry (33.2)
87-88= Danny Ferry (32.5)
88-89= Danny Ferry (33.2), Quin Snyder (30.4
89-90= Bobby Hurley (33.4), Phil Henderson (31.5), Christian Laettner (30.0)
90-91= Christian Laettner (30.2), Bobby Hurley (34.7)
91-92= Bobby Hurley (33.6), Christian Laettner (32.2), Thomas Hill (30.6), Grant Hill (30.3), Brian Davis (30.9)
92-93= Bobby Hurley (35.6), Thomas Hill (31.9), Grant Hill (31.6)
93-94= Grant Hill (35.7), Cherokee Parks (30.5), Chris Collins (31.0), Antonio Lang (30.1)
94-95= Cherokee Parks (35.2)
95-96= Jeff Capel (34.9), Chris Collins (34.6), Ricky Price (31.9)
96-97= None
97-98= None
98-99= William Avery (31.0), Trajan Langdon (31.0)
99-00= Shane Battier (35.5), Chris Carrawell (35.6), Jason Williams (34.0)
00-01= Jason Williams (31.8), Shane Battier (34.9)
01-02= Chris Duhon (35.1), Jason Williams (3.6), Mike Dunleavy Jr. (32.4)
02-03= Chris Duhon (36), Dahntay Jones (30.7), JJ Redick (30.7)
03-04= Chris Duhon (35.4), JJ Redick (31.1), Luol Deng (31.1), and Daniel Ewing (30.6)
04-05= JJ Redick (37.3), Daniel Ewing (34.5), Shelden Williams (33.6)
05-06= JJ Redick (37.1), Shelden Williams (33.3), Greg Paulus (32.3)
06-07= Josh McRoberts (35.3), Jon Scheyer (33.7), Greg Paulus (32.4), Demarcus Nelson (31.9)
07-08= Demarcus Nelson (30.9)
08-09= Jon Scheyer (32.8), Kyle Singler (32.2)
09-10= Jon Scheyer (35), Kyle Singler (33.7), Nolan Smith (33.0)

Those are the numbers and I leave it to you to make comparisons and extrapolate as needed for now, but I do have one thing to say:

The difference between 35 mpg and 30 mpg in a 30 game season is 150 minutes of game time. That is literally 2.5 hours of hard basketball over the course of ~5 months. These 18-22 yr old kids practice/ lift/ exercise/ etc... for hours upon hours every day. There is NO WAY those 2.5 hours are the difference between fresh and tired legs in March. If practices are consistently long and grueling, then that might be a different story.... but lots of game time... no way. Does anybody disagree with this?

Absolutely not, in fact I have been saying the exact samething myself. Also, I bet that if you were to ask the players not be one of them that would say that they would like to sit out and rest during a game no matter the score.

That reminds me, does anyone remember the thing where the UNC players could signal Dean that they were tired, and then could re-enter themselves into the game? Does this happen anymore (obviously not with Dean, but at other schools as well)? I do not remember seeing it happen in a while.

[dukelifer]

I am not sure I understand the concern with being worn out at the end of the year. Duke has won the ACC tournament 7 times in the last 10 years and got to the finals in one other year. Three games in three days and they won it 7 times. How do you win it when you are dead tired? How do you win it over teams that supposedly have a long bench and make sure everyone is rested during the course of a season. So are Duke players really tired at the end of the season?

Now has Duke done as well in the NCAA tourney?. Now perhaps they are tired AFTER winning the ACC tourney. That is something to debate. Given the recent attention on resting players in the NFL- one has to wonder if the ACC tourney is wearing out teams- particularly Duke. UNC won their last two NCAA banners without getting to the finals. Duke has never one one without getting to the finals. But you cannot win the ACC championship 7 times and be tired- so even if you are not happy with the short bench - it is not affecting the team at the end of the season. After the ACC tourney- I am not so sure. Is playing to win the ACC tourney tiring out Duke players?

[jv001]

I am not sure I understand the concern with being worn out at the end of the year. Duke has won the ACC tournament 7 times in the last 10 years and got to the finals in one other year. Three games in three days and they won it 7 times. How do you win it when you are dead tired? How do you win it over teams that supposedly have a long bench and make sure everyone is rested during the course of a season. So are Duke players really tired at the end of the season?

Now has Duke done as well in the NCAA tourney?. Now perhaps they are tired AFTER winning the ACC tourney. That is something to debate. Given the recent attention on resting players in the NFL- one has to wonder if the ACC tourney is wearing out teams- particularly Duke. UNC won their last two NCAA banners without getting to the finals. Duke has never one one without getting to the finals. But you cannot win the ACC championship 7 times and be tired- so even if you are not happy with the short bench - it is not affecting the team at the end of the season. After the ACC tourney- I am not so sure. Is playing to win the ACC tourney tiring out Duke players?

Rest players in the ACC Tournament? Could be like ole roy and just not care about the tourney. Naw, let's win both tourneys. Go Duke!

[Rudy]

I moved this from the post game thread.

Coaching is a results oriented profession. Judge the man on his results and when you do you will see that there is no better coach in the game right now.
I can't think of any other college coach I'd rather have in charge of my favorite team. Before one of mine became a Dukie I always admired Duke's program but was more devoted to UVa or Penn (when they were good). I have watched Duke's team very closely for only about six years. My impression has been that its players, particularly its jump shooters (including the best ever) had tired legs by the second round of the NCAA tournament, and by that I mean more tired than other teams' shooters. So those "results" cause some concern or maybe hypersensitivity among some fans to the issue of over working the star players.

[bill brill]

there is no way that this team will have balanced scoring, but it does have a vastly improved rotation of big men, who all getting good minutes. we will see more minutes for mason as he gains experience. dawkins has played like a freshman recently and has lost minutes accordingly. he was overmatched last night. kelly has been coming on in practice and the staff is very happy with him. but he won't just arbatrarily sub for kyle just because a dbr member thinks he should. the big three will get major minutes unless it proves harmful. they have been trained specifically for that purpose. singler has a much different class schedule than a normal junior (no classes before 11:30). he is in training for his future profession. but he will not play 40 if it is counter productive, which hasn't been the case. K thought clemson was his best overall effort. my guess, however, is that jon and nolan will be the leading scorers. these are smart, terrific players. after 13 games, duke's overall season stats are perhaps the best of any K team, certainly in top three. I'd prefer the cup half full approach. bb

[Greg_Newton]

I agree with you.

I have always felt that fatigue is more of a mental phenomenon than physical. Remember Kyle as a freshman? People said that he got physically fatigued near the end of the year. I wonder. I rather believe that he succumbed to the mental grind of playing high-level high-stakes ACC basketball.

When I was 18 - 21, I could play ball non-stop for hours and hours every day . . . endlessly. And so can these guys. In fact, it's fun. The difference between what I did and what these guys are going through, I suspect, has to do with the pressure of performing on a national stage where the stakes are so high.

I'll bet that the coaching staff spends more time worrying about the care and feeding of the team psyche - individually and collectively - than they do physical conditioning.

I'm not saying physical fatigue doesn't exist . . . but I submit that mental fatigue often leads to physical fatigue. Just ask someone suffering from depression.

Great post.

The problem with playing guys 37-40 minutes on a consistent basis isn't the physical wear from the extra 5 minutes of gametime. People in the post-game thread were saying things like "It was obvious that we needed Schmingler (:rolleyes:) on the floor the whole time". And that right there, IMO, is the issue.

If it gets to the point where you feel like you can't come out of a competitive game, that your team will just fall apart if you're not on the floor and facilitating everything all the time, it can be extremely draining. Having stars is one thing - having several guys that the team develops a complete dependence on is another animal, which is why I get a little uneasy when I see The Firm consistently playing 37+ minutes and generating an overwhelming majority of our offense. It's physically exhausting, yes, but it's also just so much stress and pressure to sustain over a period of months... I don't think it's trivial to suggest that that may have a small effect on that extra fire and drive you need to have in March to win 9 straight games against great teams (ACC + NCAA).

There have been exceptional individuals like Hurley, Hill, Battier and Williams that have been able to shoulder this kind of burden and still more left in the tank than anyone else. (Although did they ever consistently play 37-40? Maybe, I'm just not sure) I'm not saying it will be our downfall, but this is my biggest worry regarding this team.

[devildownunder]

When you're loaded like we were in 98, 99, 01 or 02, you can address the issue of cumulative minutes and keeping guys fresh for the stretch run. This year, we have a good team but a team heavily reliant on three guys to score. We don't have luxury of being able to sit any of them down for long stretches and still keep scoring at a high rate against good competition. The big 3 are just going to have to prepare for all the minutes they can handle. I'm sure they wouldn't have it any other way.