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Jim3k
12-24-2009, 02:08 AM
From the Binghamton Gannett outlet (http://www.pressconnects.com/article/20091223/SPORTS03/912230377/1118/Knowles-departs-Cornell-to-join-Duke-staff).

Jim Knowles has been the Cornell head coach for 6 years. His teams this year was 2-8; he has an overall record of 26-34./ He played there 1983-87 and loves the the University. He worked for Coach Cutcliffe at Ole Miss where he was the linebackers coach, so this is a reunion of sorts. It's a step down in authority, but a step up in salary.

Hard to leave the place you love -- just for the money. At least it's not just for the money -- he must really like working with Coach Cut.

gep
12-24-2009, 02:20 AM
From the Binghamton Gannett outlet (http://www.pressconnects.com/article/20091223/SPORTS03/912230377/1118/Knowles-departs-Cornell-to-join-Duke-staff).

Jim Knowles has been the Cornell head coach for 6 years. His teams this year was 2-8; he has an overall record of 26-34./ He played there 1983-87 and loves the the University. He worked for Coach Cutcliffe at Ole Miss where he was the linebackers coach, so this is a reunion of sorts. It's a step down in authority, but a step up in salary.

Hard to leave the place you love -- just for the money. At least it's not just for the money -- he must really like working with Coach Cut.

Sorry... I plead ignorance. Who was, and what happened to the current defensive coordinator? I thought Coach Cut has his "A" team with him already?:rolleyes:

Jim3k
12-24-2009, 02:59 AM
Sorry... I plead ignorance. Who was, and what happened to the current defensive coordinator? I thought Coach Cut has his "A" team with him already?:rolleyes:

He did have his 'A team,' but DC Mike MacIntyre became the HC at San Jose State about a week ago (http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_14022785?source=rss&nclick_check=1), opening the slot now being filled by Knowles

gep
12-24-2009, 03:15 AM
He did have his 'A team,' but DC Mike MacIntyre became the HC at San Jose State about a week ago (http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_14022785?source=rss&nclick_check=1), opening the slot now being filled by Knowles

Thanks for the quick answer... I wish him well at San Jose State... hope he doesn't take any other of Coach Cut's "team" with him... :)

Devilsfan
12-24-2009, 06:46 AM
2-6 in his sixth year? Hope they lost every game 6-3 because of lack of offense.

RelativeWays
12-24-2009, 08:08 AM
2-6 in his sixth year? Hope they lost every game 6-3 because of lack of offense.

Some guys may have the knowledge to be great defensive coordinators, but they may not be cut out for the HC job *looks in Ted Roof's general direction*

killerleft
12-24-2009, 10:54 AM
Some guys may have the knowledge to be great defensive coordinators, but they may not be cut out for the HC job *looks in Ted Roof's general direction*

True, dat! Best of luck to Coach MacIntyre at SHS. Welcome to Coach Jim Knowles!

cornellian2
12-24-2009, 01:15 PM
http://www.theithacajournal.com/article/20091223/NEWS03/91223018/Knowles-resigns-as-Cornell-football-coach

http://elf.elynah.com/read.php?7,151963

ChrisP
12-24-2009, 10:28 PM
Some guys may have the knowledge to be great defensive coordinators, but they may not be cut out for the HC job *looks in Ted Roof's general direction*

In fairness to Coach Roof, he did not have NEAR the resources that Coach Cut has available to him. I actually think TR might make someone a fine head coach one day if given the right situation. Duke significantly stepped up their support for the FB program for Coach Cut. Not saying that's a bad thing but...let's be fair.

sagegrouse
12-24-2009, 11:24 PM
True, dat! Best of luck to Coach MacIntyre at SHS.

That's SHS, as in San Ho-say State! I'm with you.

sagegrouse

formerdukeathlete
12-25-2009, 12:50 PM
From the Binghamton Gannett outlet (http://www.pressconnects.com/article/20091223/SPORTS03/912230377/1118/Knowles-departs-Cornell-to-join-Duke-staff).

Jim Knowles has been the Cornell head coach for 6 years. His teams this year was 2-8; he has an overall record of 26-34./ He played there 1983-87 and loves the the University. He worked for Coach Cutcliffe at Ole Miss where he was the linebackers coach, so this is a reunion of sorts. It's a step down in authority, but a step up in salary.

Hard to leave the place you love -- just for the money. At least it's not just for the money -- he must really like working with Coach Cut.

Knowles will have recruiting contacts in the Northeast which will be helpful for Duke in landing higher-rated talent for the Football program.

killerleft
12-25-2009, 10:00 PM
That's SHS, as in San Ho-say State! I'm with you.

sagegrouse

Er..., yeah!:o

CameronBornAndBred
12-27-2009, 08:21 PM
On Dukeupdate.com, they have an article linked (which I can't read due to being a paysite, duke.rivals.com) that Coach Hobby was to be named the D Coordinator, followed of course by the news that Duke has hired Knowles. I hope the outside hiring doesn't lead to any internal strife. I don't mind the Knowles hire, I like that we brought in someone from outside (even though the Cutcliffe connection is there), I just find it curious that someone posted that Hobby was to be the named replacement.

Acymetric
12-27-2009, 08:45 PM
On Dukeupdate.com, they have an article linked (which I can't read due to being a paysite, duke.rivals.com) that Coach Hobby was to be named the D Coordinator, followed of course by the news that Duke has hired Knowles. I hope the outside hiring doesn't lead to any internal strife. I don't mind the Knowles hire, I like that we brought in someone from outside (even though the Cutcliffe connection is there), I just find it curious that someone posted that Hobby was to be the named replacement.

Well, technically Hobby was already the (co) D-Coordinator, he wasn't just a position coach. My suspicion is that Hobby is now D-Coordinator and Knowles will be co-DC. We'll find out whenever we get an official announcement. Additionally, at least some of these guys probably worked with Knowles during his year under Cut at Ole Miss, so its not like its some totally new, unknown guy coming in.

Devil in the Blue Dress
12-27-2009, 08:53 PM
Well, technically Hobby was already the (co) D-Coordinator, he wasn't just a position coach. My suspicion is that Hobby is now D-Coordinator and Knowles will be co-DC. We'll find out whenever we get an official announcement. Additionally, at least some of these guys probably worked with Knowles during his year under Cut at Ole Miss, so its not like its some totally new, unknown guy coming in.

Not only do the remaining staff members already know Knowles, the arrival of someone else from their time at Ole Miss presents an opportunity for some internal shifts or adjustments which may promote even greater use of their strengths.

NYC Duke Fan
12-27-2009, 08:59 PM
Knowles will have recruiting contacts in the Northeast which will be helpful for Duke in landing higher-rated talent for the Football program.

I hate to break a bubble, but the Northeast is not a hotbead of football recruiting. Now if Coach Cut had hired someone from Florida, we would be talking about something special.

CameronBornAndBred
12-27-2009, 09:09 PM
I hate to break a bubble, but the Northeast is not a hotbead of football recruiting. Now if Coach Cut had hired someone from Florida, we would be talking about something special.
Some states up there get as serious about their HS football as Florida and Texas..Pennsylvania particularily stands out. If they didn't have pesky hockey diverting their attention spans, more of those bruisers would be putting on football pads instead of skates.

NYC Duke Fan
12-27-2009, 10:01 PM
Some states up there get as serious about their HS football as Florida and Texas..Pennsylvania particularily stands out. If they didn't have pesky hockey diverting their attention spans, more of those bruisers would be putting on football pads instead of skates.

You are absolutely correct about Pennsylvania and now to some extent New Jersey, but I could be mistaken but I don't think that the reference to Northeast was meant to be Pennsylvania...more New York, Mass., Conn., Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont...none of which are considered hotbeads for football recruiting.

Now, as you indicated correctly, if Duke were to field an ice hockey team, then we are on the right trail.

-bdbd
12-28-2009, 01:19 AM
Well, I checked, and I count about a dozen players on the Colgate roster out of PA, and another 15 out of NJ. If you throw in the 15 or so from mostly upstate NY, then you have almost half the Colgate roster from what I believe to be solid football country. I do agree with NYC insomuch as New York metro, and most of New England isn't as nearly as intense on football as PA, NJ, & upstate NY. My wife is from Binghamton, near Colgate, and we used to live in Rochester, so I feel pretty good in saying there's a lot of intensity for HS FB once you get north of White Plains in NY state, especially along the Southern Tier (where Colgate is located) where they often play against PA HS teams. Certainly NJ (where PSU recruits well) and PA are first-rate recruiting areas.

Mostly, the "match" to me, in addition to him being a former Cut staffer, is that Colgate is a school not all that different than Duke in many ways, and he does bring at least some NE HS contacts, where the current staff was probably lacking a little.

Now let's just bring in 2-3 more 3-4-star recruits for 2010, and all will be good... :D

NYC Duke Fan
12-28-2009, 07:51 AM
He was the head coach of Cornell not Colgate and Colgate a member of The Patriot League, like Cornell, a member of the Ivy League does not give out football scholorships..

Hancock 4 Duke
12-28-2009, 02:06 PM
http://bluedevilnation.net/2009/12/3265/

Mal
12-28-2009, 03:07 PM
Now, as you indicated correctly, if Duke were to field an ice hockey team, then we are on the right trail.

Well, moreso than for football, true. Although, save for Massachusetts, you'd still be better off going for the Midwest in this case, where 2/3 of the U.S.-born collegiate hockey players come from. Now, if we wanted to start a basketball team...oh, wait.

Now, as for Knowles, I'm not concerned with the pedestrian record at Cornell - we're not asking him to build a program, and it's I-AA or FCS or whatever it is these days and he couldn't even give out scholarships - so that's really apples and oranges. I'm a little concerned that, looking over Cornell's schedule this year, they gave up an awful lot of points. Like, a lot. And without running any numbers, it looks like defense has gotten weaker at Cornell over his tenure.

That said, I think Cutcliffe's earned our trust, and thereby Knowles the benefit of the doubt, unless he proves otherwise. Welcome aboard!

formerdukeathlete
12-28-2009, 03:32 PM
I hate to break a bubble, but the Northeast is not a hotbead of football recruiting. Now if Coach Cut had hired someone from Florida, we would be talking about something special.

The Northeast is a far better BCS Football Program to millions of population ratio than the Southeast, including Florida.

Take the rivals top 250 and then set an SAT cutoff of 1000 math verbal and then take a look at where they come from. I believe you will find players coming from California, Illinois, Ohio, PA, NJ, NY, New England, and fewer from the Southeast. For top-rated players willing to consider a Duke education, who might consider Duke over a top Program (Tomlinson picking Duke over Ohio State) the Northeast, Midwest are indeed "hotbeds."

Mal
12-28-2009, 04:49 PM
??? Better evidence is needed for this, please. You've made a statement counter to conventional wisdom and anecdotal experience, then as proof offered only your perusal of a top 250 recruit list for the current year (which covers a sample of, what, 10% of the D-1 recruits in one season?), setting SAT parameters you know will eliminate a disproportionate number of kids from the South (I think your intent was to set for better Duke targets academically but your blanket statement fails to make a distinction between high academic achiever recruits and others), and then dropped California, Illinois and Ohio into the list of examples bolstering your claim. Perhaps a breakdown of roster members on BCS squads from the Northeast (PA does not count for football - we all know the majority of its recruits come from the western half of the state, and what's now Big Ten territory), as opposed to the Southeast may be more convincing.

Also, number of recruits per capita, which appears to be your measure, is meaningless. Raw number of recruits is more important. Wyoming may have a higher number of rare talents per 1,000 people than California, but scouts aren't going to pour in there anytime soon.

When we see 7 or 8 guys from Jersey and New York on every SEC team and not 7 or 8 guys from Florida and Georgia on every Big East team, the presumption might change. Until then, I'm afraid I'm quite unconvinced.

Regardless, I don't think access to a new recruiting ground in which our new coordinator has been coaching at a non-scholarship institution is worth all that much, so the whole discussion is more academic than anything. Knowles may have set up some connections with high school coaches in the area, but he wasn't even approaching the kinds of talent Duke's now looking for, much less directly competing with Rutgers and UConn. If some stud QB emerges out of Ithaca HS, his time there may help, but that's about it.

Acymetric
12-28-2009, 04:50 PM
On Dukeupdate.com, they have an article linked (which I can't read due to being a paysite, duke.rivals.com) that Coach Hobby was to be named the D Coordinator, followed of course by the news that Duke has hired Knowles. I hope the outside hiring doesn't lead to any internal strife. I don't mind the Knowles hire, I like that we brought in someone from outside (even though the Cutcliffe connection is there), I just find it curious that someone posted that Hobby was to be the named replacement.


Well, technically Hobby was already the (co) D-Coordinator, he wasn't just a position coach. My suspicion is that Hobby is now D-Coordinator and Knowles will be co-DC. We'll find out whenever we get an official announcement. Additionally, at least some of these guys probably worked with Knowles during his year under Cut at Ole Miss, so its not like its some totally new, unknown guy coming in.

GoDuke.com just updated to include Knowles, and it appears that I was correct. Hobby has been promoted to "Assistant Head Coach - Defensive Coordinator" and Knowles is DC/Safeties coach. My guess is that Hobby will be calling the plays.

To keep track of the positions, it appears the power structure is this:

David Cutcliffe - Head Coach

Ron Middleton - Associate Head Coach (special teams coordinator/tight ends)

Marion Hobby - Assistant Head Coach (Defensive Coordinator)

Kurt Roper (Offensive Coordinator, QBs)/Matt Luke (Offensive Coordinator/running game, O-Line)/Jim Knowles (Defensive Coordinator - Safeties)

Jim Collins (Linebackers)/Scottie Montgomery (Receivers)/Derek Jones (secondary)/Zac Roper (Recruiting Coordinator, RBs, special teams)


I don't think there should be any issue with Knowles coming in ahead of Collins and Jones, because he has quite a bit of experience as an assistant, and is the only other person on the team with prior HC experience.

As a sidenote, having an assistant with experience as a head coach is really a huge plus for the program, in my opinion.


Edit: Official announcement (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22672&SPID=1843&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204862683) from Duke.

Tappan Zee Devil
12-28-2009, 05:26 PM
He was the head coach of Cornell not Colgate and Colgate a member of The Patriot League, like Cornell, a member of the Ivy League does not give out football scholorships..

The head coach at Colgate is Dick Biddle, who was in my class (1970) at Duke. I was in Suitcase Simpson's Poli-Sci class with him. He played linebacker and was a hellofa football player - but at that time was probably the most callous, brutal person I had ever met.
I am (pleasantly) surprised that he has been a success as a coach at a school like Colgate.

Jim

DevilWolf
12-28-2009, 05:36 PM
He was the head coach of Cornell not Colgate and Colgate a member of The Patriot League, like Cornell, a member of the Ivy League does not give out football scholorships..

It's pronounced Colonel, and it's the highest rank in the military
- Creed

Devil in the Blue Dress
12-28-2009, 05:39 PM
The head coach at Colgate is Dick Biddle, who was in my class (1970) at Duke. I was in Suitcase Simpson's Poli-Sci class with him. He played linebacker and was a hellofa football player - but at that time was probably the most callous, brutal person I had ever met.
I am (pleasantly) surprised that he has been a success as a coach at a school like Colgate.

Jim

Suitcase Simpson's class were something of a melting pot of athletes and non-athletes.

Did you also take any of Dr. Rankin's classes?

Tappan Zee Devil
12-28-2009, 06:06 PM
Suitcase Simpson's class were something of a melting pot of athletes and non-athletes.

Did you also take any of Dr. Rankin's classes?

No - I was a physics major, so had only limited opportunity to take non-science courses. For all that the class had a large number of athletes and Dr. Simpson referred to the football players as "my gladiators", I thought it actually was a good course in which I learned a lot about about American constitutional history.

He sat us alphabetically so I sat between Wes Chesson and Marcel Courtillet with Biddle immediately in front of me. I think that the only time that Suitcase saw me all semester was on the Fridays when the team was traveling.

Jim

Indoor66
12-28-2009, 06:21 PM
No - I was a physics major, so had only limited opportunity to take non-science courses. For all that the class had a large number of athletes and Dr. Simpson referred to the football players as "my gladiators", I thought it actually was a good course in which I learned a lot about about American constitutional history.

He sat us alphabetically so I sat between Wes Chesson and Marcel Courtillet with Biddle immediately in front of me. I think that the only time that Suitcase saw me all semester was on the Fridays when the team was traveling.

Jim

Kind of a rose among all the thorns...:D

Jim3k
12-28-2009, 06:58 PM
I think it is fair to say that Suitcase...err...Dr. Simpson....was a very fine professor. He helped me out my senior year permitting me to add a class after the deadline...it was urban government (or something along those lines) and he was really knowledgeable and effective.

Devil in the Blue Dress
12-28-2009, 07:04 PM
I think it is fair to say that Suitcase...err...Dr. Simpson....was a very fine professor. He helped me out my senior year permitting me to add a class after the deadline...it was urban government (or something along those lines) and he was really knowledgeable and effective.
Dr. Simpson was an overlooked gem. He put his students ahead of university politics. His memory was extraordinary... as I have mentioned on the past, he remembered my dad as a former student of his and even quoted his final grade. It was in his class I met several people who were influential in my life after college.

gep
12-28-2009, 07:17 PM
I'm reluctant to keep this going in this direction, but is there a story of some kind as to why Dr. Simpson is referred to as "Suitecase"? Thanks... He sounds like a great prof. I also had a chuckle when reading about TZD's "obscurity". ;-)

Jim3k
12-28-2009, 08:40 PM
I'm reluctant to keep this going in this direction, but is there a story of some kind as to why Dr. Simpson is referred to as "Suitecase"? Thanks... He sounds like a great prof. I also had a chuckle when reading about TZD's "obscurity". ;-)

I don't really know...but major league player -- outfielder and first baseman -- Harry Simpson was known as 'Suitcase Simpson' because he played for so many teams -- he had played in the Negro Leagues for years before getting on with the Indians in the early '50s. He was on the 1957 Yankee World Series team, too.

I suspect that Professor Simpson just got tagged with 'Suitcase' because they shared the same last name.

I certainly never heard why students called him Suitcase -- but they did -- and I believe he enjoyed it.

gep
12-28-2009, 09:44 PM
Thanks...

-bdbd
12-28-2009, 10:29 PM
He was the head coach of Cornell not Colgate and Colgate a member of The Patriot League, like Cornell, a member of the Ivy League does not give out football scholorships..

That's what I get for posting in the middle of the night! Thanks NYC for catching my typo - nobody tell my wife I messed up in typing the name of her "hometown" school (!). But I actually WAS talking about Cornell. And the point remains: CORNELL in Ithaca, NY (right along the PA/NY border) has about 35 players from, and obviously recruits quite a bit in, the football-rich High Schools of PA, upstate NY and NJ. And the academic and small-school environment is remarkably similar to Duke. Given the southern orientation of Cut's current staff, gaining those HS contacts is clearly a very good thing, esp. as FDA points out, for attracting Duke-type athletes. Obviously a significant proportion of the Duke student body already comes from that part of the world as well -- so the "sell"/value pitch maybe meets a somewhat receptive audience there. :confused::confused::confused:

Time will tell. I certainly like Cut's focus on team speed -- one of those things that's hard to "teach." Now, let's keep bringing in those high-3 and maybe 4-star recruits! Getting a NEW foot in the door in an important and "natural" recruiting area for Duke can only be good.
:D

Devil in the Blue Dress
12-28-2009, 11:02 PM
I'm reluctant to keep this going in this direction, but is there a story of some kind as to why Dr. Simpson is referred to as "Suitecase"? Thanks... He sounds like a great prof. I also had a chuckle when reading about TZD's "obscurity". ;-)

My dad was a member of the Class of 1933 and was one of Dr. Simpson's undergraduate students. (Dr. Simpson may have been a graduate student then.) Dad told me the nickname came from an incident which happened on campus while my dad time as a student.

One day Dr. Simpson went out to his car to go home and apparently was carrying enough that he placed his briefcase on top of his car and loaded the rest in the car. Somehow he forgot that the briefcase full of students' papers and tests was still on top of the car and drove off scattering the papers as he sped off to his home on Dollar Ave. Some students witnessed the event and gave him his popular nickname.

Another colorful figure on campus during the same period of time was "Nurmi" Shears whose nickname came from the name of a famous Olympic runner from Scandinavia I think. Nurmi earned his nickname because of how fast he could run even in his later years. He was a math tutor for some of the athletes and would frequently challenge some of them to a foot race with him in the quad. He was also known for wearing several watches on his arm all set for different timezones. He was still tutoring and running foot races in the last sixties.

gep
12-28-2009, 11:18 PM
Thanks to you too... I enjoy these interesting stories of Duke personalities.

formerdukeathlete
12-29-2009, 02:34 AM
??? Better evidence is needed for this, please. You've made a statement counter to conventional wisdom and anecdotal experience, then as proof offered only your perusal of a top 250 recruit list for the current year (which covers a sample of, what, 10% of the D-1 recruits in one season?), setting SAT parameters you know will eliminate a disproportionate number of kids from the South (I think your intent was to set for better Duke targets academically but your blanket statement fails to make a distinction between high academic achiever recruits and others), and then dropped California, Illinois and Ohio into the list of examples bolstering your claim. Perhaps a breakdown of roster members on BCS squads from the Northeast (PA does not count for football - we all know the majority of its recruits come from the western half of the state, and what's now Big Ten territory), as opposed to the Southeast may be more convincing.

Also, number of recruits per capita, which appears to be your measure, is meaningless. Raw number of recruits is more important. Wyoming may have a higher number of rare talents per 1,000 people than California, but scouts aren't going to pour in there anytime soon.

When we see 7 or 8 guys from Jersey and New York on every SEC team and not 7 or 8 guys from Florida and Georgia on every Big East team, the presumption might change. Until then, I'm afraid I'm quite unconvinced.

Regardless, I don't think access to a new recruiting ground in which our new coordinator has been coaching at a non-scholarship institution is worth all that much, so the whole discussion is more academic than anything. Knowles may have set up some connections with high school coaches in the area, but he wasn't even approaching the kinds of talent Duke's now looking for, much less directly competing with Rutgers and UConn. If some stud QB emerges out of Ithaca HS, his time there may help, but that's about it.

Ohio has one high major program - Ohio State, and year on and off, Pennsylvania one - Penn State, throw in Pitt for certain timeframes. NY, NJ, NE have none. Sure Rutgers is better, UConn, Boston College, but, I would not call these insurmountable competition for Duke Football. In the Southeast, you have much smaller populations, even today, and tons and tons of high major programs, as well as programs which engender in state and regional bias and preferences which are difficult to overcome. If you follow Duke Football recruiting closely, it is disappointing of late. We have missed out on a number of kids we thought we had a pretty good chance on, who may not have been Duke Football student athlete material in a traditional academic sense, but which Cutcliffe had been going after. The recruits simply chose better Football programs. Many were not very good students, so what would be their motivation in choosing Duke?

Cutcliffe has concentrated his recruiting efforts and staff time regionally, players he might like who he could get in with the relaxed admissions standards. Stanford on the other hand faces much higher admissions hurdles, team average criteria, and screened the top 250 and beyond (likely high 3 star players or better) firstly on the basis of academic criteria, and then concentrated their sales pitch on the better students who could make the cut.

Coming from a fairly prominent high school program in the Northeast, I also think you are wrong on what the new Defensive Coordinator may add in our recruiting equation.

Firstly, he will know the larger programs at better high schools which produce football recruits. Some of these may go the BCS route and others may go the route of the Ivy League. He has talked some kids into Cornell who had scholarship offers with better programs than Duke. He knows coaches, principals, guidance counselors. He knows what it takes to sell an elite education. If he could talk kids into freezing weather and attending Cornell, sometimes over full scholarship offers with BCS programs, he just might help us talk academically well-qualified who are highly ranked Football players into coming down to Duke, a higher ranked school than Cornell, Ivy equivalent school, to play BCS football.

In the day of the internet, camps, combines, if someone in Wyoming playing ball is a top talent, he will be found and offered. Our chances of landing that top talent will depend on the regional competition and how well-qualified academically, how academically-motivated the recruit. The national approach works much better, firstly screening on the basis of high academics. Stanford's recruiting advantage over Duke is explained in large part by their approach. Duke's relative disadvantage is also explained largely in our approach.

Mal
12-29-2009, 11:26 AM
Here is your initial proclamation: "The Northeast is a far better BCS Football Program to millions of population ratio than the Southeast, including Florida." [emphasis added] Who Duke targets or should be targeting, and our recruiting history, has nothing to do with that statement. I'm asking you to prove your initial thesis, because it's counterintuitive. That is, if I can assume what the intended wording was; I think you meant to say something along the lines of "The Northeast is a far better pipeline of BCS football talent in terms of good recruits per million inhabitants than the Southeast, including Florida." On its face, that's ludicrous. So, if you'd like, back it up with some non-skewed to your benefit, sufficient sample size numbers.

Your point about the scant number of top flight programs in the Northeast also argues against your thesis - for one, that's less players playing collegiate ball up there, even if all those teams were stocked with local kids. But when the Big East programs still look to Texas, Florida and Georgia to fill out their rosters to a much greater degree than the reverse happens, it makes your statement look even more untrue.

formerdukeathlete
12-29-2009, 07:03 PM
Here is your initial proclamation: "The Northeast is a far better BCS Football Program to millions of population ratio than the Southeast, including Florida." [emphasis added] Who Duke targets or should be targeting, and our recruiting history, has nothing to do with that statement. I'm asking you to prove your initial thesis, because it's counterintuitive. That is, if I can assume what the intended wording was; I think you meant to say something along the lines of "The Northeast is a far better pipeline of BCS football talent in terms of good recruits per million inhabitants than the Southeast, including Florida." On its face, that's ludicrous. So, if you'd like, back it up with some non-skewed to your benefit, sufficient sample size numbers.

Your point about the scant number of top flight programs in the Northeast also argues against your thesis - for one, that's less players playing collegiate ball up there, even if all those teams were stocked with local kids. But when the Big East programs still look to Texas, Florida and Georgia to fill out their rosters to a much greater degree than the reverse happens, it makes your statement look even more untrue.

Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts have really two high major programs - Ohio State and Penn State. Yes Cincy and Pitt are doing well of late. But they are not high major programs, and, particularly in the case of Cincy, offer nothing close to the level of education at the only two consistent high major programs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population

That is two programs per 62.2 million people.

A lot of good Football players come out of these states.

I notice you have not addressed the recruiting disappointments for Duke Football this and last year. You may not follow these that closely.

Some of the recruiting mishaps have been self-inflicted wounds which suggest little weight is given superior academic credentials in the recruiting process. For example, Duke's snub of high major offered DE Henry Anderson whose high school coach confirmed that he wanted to come to Duke but that our coaching staff snubbed him entirely.

http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=8&c=1&nid=4023411

You are aware of Stanford's tremendous success.

http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=9&c=14&yr=2010

Notice 7 of 21 of the verbal commits for 2010 are from the South. Yes there are good Football players in the South who are very well qualified academically. Our chances of landing them are much improved if we target and screen firstly for the best students - like Stanford. But this is SEC country.

Cold, snowy winters up north may also help us in recruiting, where kids commonly dont grow up dreaming of playing for Alabama, but where they may grow up dreaming of going to Penn or Harvard. Enter stage left - our new Defensive Coordinator.

Inonehand
12-29-2009, 07:24 PM
Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts have really two high major programs - Ohio State and Penn State. Yes Cincy and Pitt are doing well of late. But they are not high major programs, and, particularly in the case of Cincy, offer nothing close to the level of education at the only two consistent high major programs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population

That is two programs per 62.2 million people.

A lot of good Football players come out of these states.

I notice you have not addressed the recruiting disappointments for Duke Football this and last year. You may not follow these that closely.

Some of the recruiting mishaps have been self-inflicted wounds which suggest little weight is given superior academic credentials in the recruiting process. For example, Duke's snub of high major offered DE Henry Anderson whose high school coach confirmed that he wanted to come to Duke but that our coaching staff snubbed him entirely.

http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=8&c=1&nid=4023411

You are aware of Stanford's tremendous success.

http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=9&c=14&yr=2010

Notice 7 of 21 of the verbal commits for 2010 are from the South. Yes there are good Football players in the South who are very well qualified academically. Our chances of landing them are much improved if we target and screen firstly for the best students - like Stanford. But this is SEC country.

Cold, snowy winters up north may also help us in recruiting, where kids commonly dont grow up dreaming of playing for Alabama, but where they may grow up dreaming of going to Penn or Harvard. Enter stage left - our new Defensive Coordinator.


Love it how recruiting success is based on the average number of stars recruits get. Our freshman all-america receiver had 2 stars from rival. I tend to trust the coaches' decisions on players...and anyway, that other kid we 'snubbed' only had 3 stars. Wouldn't have raised our average that much anyway.

Mal
12-29-2009, 08:49 PM
Ohio, Pennsylvania...

Ummm, pancake bunny? Perhaps I should start over from the beginning. Can you provide a workable transcription for the following statement? "The Northeast is a far better BCS Football Program to millions of population ratio than the Southeast, including Florida." Please note that the foregoing contains absolutely no reference to Duke, Duke football, its history or recruiting, academic standards of any sort, Stanford, our new defensive coordinator, underlying reasons, or number of BCS programs in various regions. It is a blanket, unqualified assertion.

Next, can you support that assertion with actual fact?

I'm willing to wager you can't, because it is rather obviously incorrect on its face. The rest of your posts in response to my initial inquiry about it have provided nothing in support of the blanket statement to which I've objected, and instead acted as though the initial statement had some mention of Duke in it. There was no such context. I haven't "addressed" recent Duke football recruiting disappointments because they have zero to do with what I'm talking about. You basically stated that the NE is a significantly more fertile ground for producing D-1 quality college football players, person for person, than the SE. I'm calling you on it. If that's not what you intended to say, feel free to restate the thesis with appropriate context. Otherwise, defend it or don't, but please stop obfuscating.

Also, Ohio is not part of the Northeast.

Acymetric
12-29-2009, 10:08 PM
Can we make a new thread where we move all of FDA's posts so that every thread about football doesn't get hijacked and turned into a thread about how Duke should only recruit kids from New England Catholic schools?

Its not that there's no room for discussion on that matter, its that this happens to every football thread that comes up. I would prefer to talk about the new coach, what differences we might see in the defense with Hobby now in charge and Knowles backing him up, things like that.

formerdukeathlete
12-29-2009, 11:13 PM
Ummm, pancake bunny? Perhaps I should start over from the beginning. Can you provide a workable transcription for the following statement? "The Northeast is a far better BCS Football Program to millions of population ratio than the Southeast, including Florida." Please note that the foregoing contains absolutely no reference to Duke, Duke football, its history or recruiting, academic standards of any sort, Stanford, our new defensive coordinator, underlying reasons, or number of BCS programs in various regions. It is a blanket, unqualified assertion.

Next, can you support that assertion with actual fact?

I'm willing to wager you can't, because it is rather obviously incorrect on its face. The rest of your posts in response to my initial inquiry about it have provided nothing in support of the blanket statement to which I've objected, and instead acted as though the initial statement had some mention of Duke in it. There was no such context. I haven't "addressed" recent Duke football recruiting disappointments because they have zero to do with what I'm talking about. You basically stated that the NE is a significantly more fertile ground for producing D-1 quality college football players, person for person, than the SE. I'm calling you on it. If that's not what you intended to say, feel free to restate the thesis with appropriate context. Otherwise, defend it or don't, but please stop obfuscating.

Also, Ohio is not part of the Northeast.

High major to population in the states I have mentioned, 2 per 62.5 million, 1 per 31.25. As opposed to the Southeast, plus Texas where high major programs include all the SEC schools except Vandy, Kentucky, plus Texas, Texas Tech, Texas A and M, Oklahoma and the list goes on with about 95 million in population, about 14 per 95 million, 1 per 6.79 million. In North Carolina where there are 5 BCS including ECU per 9.2 million or 1 per 1.84 million.

"You basically stated that the NE is a significantly more fertile ground for producing D-1 quality college football players, person for person, than the SE. I'm calling you on it." This is incorrect. I did say that these states were more fertile grounds for Duke, if as we should be, as Stanford is targeting rivals top 250 ranked players with above 1000 SATs. Based on reviewing the rivals data base, prior conversations with coaches, statements of Duke coaches including Carl Franks, New England, PA OH NJ NY will have more of those kids than the SE. An Ivy league type school with better weather and big time athletics. Its an attactive combination for good student top prospects who grew up in the general vacinity of the Ivy League.

towerview road
12-31-2009, 06:11 AM
I think it goes both ways. When we have kids like Quinn Barham (Hillside HS grad from Durham) playing for Paterno at Penn State (http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/barham_quinn00.html), we need to work on getting the best in-state talent possible given our in-state rivals.

At the same time, there are some academically-strong, top prospects in the Northeast that could be great catches.

Take, for example, Penn State's Brett Bracket from Lawrenceville (NJ): http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/brackett_brett00.html

I also think Duke could try to make in-roads with schools where we already get a good number of (non-athlete) students from. I know that sounds elitist perhaps, but I think it might work for us. Consider that both Varner and Vernon came from a school where we traditionally enroll several students every year(the same school, Gulliver Prep, actually).

Hopefully we go after guys like Max Gruder (Charlotte Country Day) who plays for Pitt (http://www.pittsburghpanthers.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/gruder_max00.html) or alternately, look at the roster for UConn football this year (http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/conn-m-footbl-mtt.html). Lots of alma maters listed where Duke traditionally enrolls (non-athlete) students from every year - St. Paul's, Hotchkiss, Friends Academy, Greenwich High School, The Hill School, Punahou, Hun School, McDonough (private in Maryland), Walt Whitman (public HS in Bethesda, MD - I think Duke has like 6 or 7 students from this school), the Peddie School, et cetera.