The End of Georgetown Basketball!!!!!

[MulletMan]

Clearly (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4764768), JTIII is a terrible coach, and can't relate to his players. The Hoyas are in trouble!

[dukelifer]

Clearly (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4764768), JTIII is a terrible coach, and can't relate to his players. The Hoyas are in trouble!This must be a mistake. Only players from Duke transfer.

[Greg_Newton]

"At least five Hoyas players have transferred to other schools in the last three years.

Marc Egerson left for Delaware, Jeremiah Rivers went to Indiana, Vernon Macklin departed for Florida, and Omar Wattad is at Chattanooga."

Appreciate that rough guesstimation, ESPN. I know, I know, it would have taken forever to get an exact count of those names...:rolleyes:

[juise]

I did some mocking on this subject in the Czyz thread (http://dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=344512&postcount=224) earlier today.

[wolfpackdevil]

Im sorry, but whoever started this thread has no idea what their talking about. JTIII has a different way of coaching, and some guys don't want to play by his rules.

Georgetown has only one loss this year, and they have beaten Butler and Washington. Georgetown is also ranked 13th in the polls right now. So if you think their falling apart, you're an idiot. Maybe the reason this guy is transferring is because he's mad he's not getting enough PT; That's not the coaches falt. That's the falt of the player for not earning minutes.

[-jk]

Im sorry, but whoever started this thread has no idea what their talking about. JTIII has a different way of coaching, and some guys don't want to play by his rules.

Georgetown has only one loss this year, and they have beaten Butler and Washington. Georgetown is also ranked 13th in the polls right now. So if you think their falling apart, you're an idiot. Maybe the reason this guy is transferring is because he's mad he's not getting enough PT; That's not the coaches falt. That's the falt of the player for not earning minutes.

Out of the mouths of babes...

-jk

[Newton_14]

:rolleyes:
"At least five Hoyas players have transferred to other schools in the last three years.

Marc Egerson left for Delaware, Jeremiah Rivers went to Indiana, Vernon Macklin departed for Florida, and Omar Wattad is at Chattanooga."

Appreciate that rough guesstimation, ESPN. I know, I know, it would have taken forever to get an exact count of those names...:rolleyes:

I assume we should expect an article from Adam Gold tomorrow telling us how this latest Hoya transfer is the reason HB chose not to go to Georgetown as well. Has to mean that JTIII and Georgetown do not promote a "family" atmosphere which was a big deal to HB..:rolleyes:

[SMO]

Clearly (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4764768), JTIII is a terrible coach, and can't relate to his players. The Hoyas are in trouble!

Sounds like someone needs to insert himself into this situation. Ouch!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Sounds like someone needs to insert himself into this situation. Ouch!
Insert Big Johnson?

[kcduke75]

So if you think their falling apart, you're an idiot.

Sarcasm isn't universally appreciated - but I love it.

thanks Ozzie

[MulletMan]

Im sorry, but whoever started this thread has no idea what their talking about. JTIII has a different way of coaching, and some guys don't want to play by his rules.

Georgetown has only one loss this year, and they have beaten Butler and Washington. Georgetown is also ranked 13th in the polls right now. So if you think their falling apart, you're an idiot. Maybe the reason this guy is transferring is because he's mad he's not getting enough PT; That's not the coaches falt. That's the falt of the player for not earning minutes.

Ummmm... yeah. I was being sarcastic. Thanks for calling me an idiot, though :D

Also... spell check and grammar. These things will be useful for you going forward.

My apologies for not paying attention to your previous posts on this topic, juise... I wasn't going to wade through that thread after being away from the board for a few days. :rolleyes:

[wolfpackdevil]

No need for the smiley faces. Sorry for the misunderstanding. My spelling and grammar is fine by the way.

[Bob Green]

My spelling and grammar is fine by the way.

You typed their but the proper word is they're. And you spelled fault falt, which is wrong.

[juise]

My apologies for not paying attention to your previous posts on this topic, juise... I wasn't going to wade through that thread after being away from the board for a few days. :rolleyes:

No need to apologize. I thought that some wouldn't have thought to look in that thread, but was trying to avoid starting more new threads about other programs (at least this wasn't UK). I am glad that someone shared my mocking, sarcastic inclination. ;)

[juise]

My spelling and grammar is fine by the way.

We all make mistakes. I often look at my posts and cringe at the things I overlook when I post hastily.

Oh... and because you made a list (spelling and grammar), I believe that you should have used a plural conjugation of the verb "to be." You probably should have said that your spelling and grammar are fine. :)

(These are the kinds of responses you get when you call someone an idiot. :) It was big of you to apologize for missing the sarcasm, though.)

[Poincaré]

Clearly (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4764768), JTIII is a terrible coach, and can't relate to his players. The Hoyas are in trouble!

I agree with your real position (yes, I got the sarcasm), but isn't what you are saying a vast oversimplification of the actual position taken by those who have expressed concern about transfers here at Duke? Nobody has actually taken the position that K is a terrible coach for this happening. In fact, the arguments I've read have seem to make the point that K has been so good for so long that he may have become blind to some flaws in the way the program may be run. I think that this is untrue because K has adopted successfully to many changes in the recent past, but I would not want to simply make fun of those who have taken the opposite position. I just don't think that we have to actively antagonize some participants of the board in this way. Before we think about it carefully, yes, transfers are very troubling on the surface. Yes, this discussion may be a repeat of past discussions. However, each year, 2000 new Dukies are freshly minted. Even more children of Duke fans are probably born each year. This means that a steady stream of many new Duke fans are guaranteed to visit this site each year. Are we really going to mock them for not having read last year's thread on transfers?

We can make this an even nicer place than it already is, if we want to do so.

[brevity]

Good rule of thumb regarding sarcasm on this or any other board:

If you're not sure if a person is being sarcastic or not, assume that they ARE being sarcastic. Respond accordingly, if you must, and when they persist in their opinion, with no attempt at humor, reply, "Wait, you were serious the first time?" Then let them have it.

You may also consider not responding, and letting other respondents test those particular waters.

Back on topic: I think there's a very, very good conversation to be had about the seeming disconnect between recruiting and playing at Georgetown. Great school, great program, not-so-great fit for a few people recently. I would appreciate any inside-the-Beltway knowledge on the subject.

[sagegrouse]

We all make mistakes. I often look at my posts and cringe at the things I overlook when I post hastily.

Oh... and because you made a list (spelling and grammar), I believe that you should have used a plural conjugation of the verb "to be." You probably should have said that your spelling and grammar are fine. :)

(These are the kinds of responses you get when you call someone an idiot. :) It was big of you to apologize for missing the sarcasm, though.)

Uh, juise, don't you think the subject verb agreement mistake was intentional and, in this instance, sarcastic?

sagegrouse

[Devilsfan]

Didn't Georgetown once have pretty decent bb teams when their center was Ewing? I think it was in the 70's. Also excuse my ignorance but who is Adam Gold. Probably some famous sports writer for Sports Illustrated or Sporting News. I just keep missing his column somehow.

[juise]

Uh, juise, don't you think the subject verb agreement mistake was intentional and, in this instance, sarcastic?

sagegrouse


It could have been a joke, I suppose. I didn't read it that way. It looks like Bob Green didn't either. The rest of the post seemed sincere, so I didn't assume a tone of "harsh or bitter derision or irony (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm)."

[sagegrouse]

It could have been a joke, I suppose. I didn't read it that way. It looks like Bob Green didn't either. The rest of the post seemed sincere, so I didn't assume a tone of "harsh or bitter derision or irony (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm)."

You were too polite to mention that any poster with "wolfpack" in his name loses the benefit of the doubt on grammatical errors at DBR. :D

sagegrouse

[MChambers]

"He becomes the ninth Hoya in the past five seasons to leave Georgetown before his eligibility expired.

Two players, forwards Jeff Green and DaJuan Summers, left early for the NBA. The other six (in addition to Mescheriakov) transferred: Omar Wattad, Vernon Macklin, Jeremiah Rivers, Octavius Spann, Marc Egerson and Josh Thornton."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/22/AR2009122203195.html

[MulletMan]

"He becomes the ninth Hoya in the past five seasons to leave Georgetown before his eligibility expired.

Two players, forwards Jeff Green and DaJuan Summers, left early for the NBA. The other six (in addition to Mescheriakov) transferred: Omar Wattad, Vernon Macklin, Jeremiah Rivers, Octavius Spann, Marc Egerson and Josh Thornton."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/22/AR2009122203195.html

So I think you're seeing my point... players are transferring all over the nation at top programs. It not unique to Duke. Kids in the current generation, especially the ones that are being recruited by top flight programs are coddled and told how great they are and that they are the best and that they're going to have the world handed to them on a silver platter. Then they get to a program with competition for PT and a no nonsense coach and they basically say, "Forget this... I'm awesome and deserve PT," (see T.K., and Humphries) or they come to the realization that they aren't good enough to play at this level or for this school and go somewhere else for any number of reasons... playing time, being closer to family, finding a different environment, etc. (see Boykin*, Boateng, and perhaps Czyz?).


I guess the point is that kids are transferring everywhere for a myriad of reasons. It doesn't signal anything wrong with the program, it doesn't mean anyone needs to be inserted anywhere and it doesn't necessarily mean that a coach can't see the forest through the trees.

I can't find a comprehensive list of last year's transfers (which would include E-Will) but here is the list from 2 years ago. Its a long list. And you'll see Kentucky, UNC, etc. on the list with Duke.

2007-2008 Transfer List (http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=667122)

*After his performance last night against Kansas, I think he'd have been just fine if he stayed.

[Wander]

I guess the point is that kids are transferring everywhere for a myriad of reasons. It doesn't signal anything wrong with the program, it doesn't mean anyone needs to be inserted anywhere and it doesn't necessarily mean that a coach can't see the forest through the trees.

Because some kids transferred from Georgetown, kids transferring out of a program doesn't matter? That doesn't seem very logical to me. Georgetown would very likely have a better team this year if they still had Macklin and Rivers.

[Kedsy]

Because some kids transferred from Georgetown, kids transferring out of a program doesn't matter? That doesn't seem very logical to me. Georgetown would very likely have a better team this year if they still had Macklin and Rivers.

Of course it matters. I believe the original point was it's inevitable and systemic and it happens to everyone, not just Duke.

[Wander]

Of course it matters. I believe the original point was it's inevitable and systemic and it happens to everyone, not just Duke.

It's inevitable to a degree, but I think for Georgetown (not for Duke) it may have crossed the line into a real problem.

[DukeUsul]

I think the number of transfers at other major schools undermines one of the arguments people who are worried about Duke's transfers makes. Some have suggested that Duke having a number of transfers creates a perception among recruits that there is a problem or issue or "non-family" atmosphere ... but if many major programs have similar numbers of transfers, then said recruits would be drawing the same conclusions about the schools we're competing with. If you can draw the same conclusion about the schools we're competing with, then it can't be a disadvantage.

That being said, if we never had any transfers, someone might make the argument that could be an advantage over these other schools. Maybe.

[PhillyDuke]

My issue with Duke transfers is Elliott Williams. When he was with us he sat the bench for two-thirds of the season, then became a starter who was a defensive specialist. Now with Memphis he's dropping 20 points a game, and is being mentioned as a possible lottery pick in the draft!?! How come we didn't get all that offensive productivity when he was with us? That's the question!

We played 3 on 5 offensively in every game last season. If he had that type of ability, we failed to get it from him. We darn sure could have used against Villanova.

[Bob Green]

My issue with Duke transfers is Elliott Williams....
We played 3 on 5 offensively in every game last season....

Elliot Williams is Memphis' first option on offense. Through 10 games, he is averaging 12.7 field goal attempts per game. Last season, at Duke, over the last 12 games of the season, Elliot Williams was Duke's fourth offensive option and he averaged six field goal attempts per game. Over those same 12 games, Gerald Henderson averaged 15 attempts, Kyle Singler 12.7 attempts, and Jon Scheyer 10.8 attempts. Nolan Smith was our fifth offensive option averaging five attempts per game (in the nine games in which he played).

There are a finite number of possesions in a basketball game and any team's top options are going to be given the most opportunities to score the ball.

In the Villanova game, Elliot Williams, our fourth offensive option, scored the fourth most points on the team.

[mapei]

FWIW, Georgetown fans are just as concerned about the transfers as Duke fans are. Or, more accurately, their fans have the same mix of (1) concern and (2) sarcastic disdain for those who are concerned. It's been a lively topic on the Hoya board since Nikita M anounced his decision. Over there, Duke is cited as evidence that "it's not just us," as Gtown is cited here.

Personally, I think there is reason for *some* concern at both places. But with a sense of proportion.

[MulletMan]

Because some kids transferred from Georgetown, kids transferring out of a program doesn't matter?

When did I say that?

I think those who think that transferring students are some horrible problem are short sighted and overly pessimistic.

That's what I'm saying.

[SMO]

Elliot Williams is Memphis' first option on offense.

To build on Bob's point, he's also now a Soph and appears to have elevated his game vs. his first year, as one might expect. It's really unfair to ask "where was that last year?" about various elements of college players' games because most D1 players add skills and dimensions to their games during college.

[Kedsy]

My issue with Duke transfers is Elliott Williams. When he was with us he sat the bench for two-thirds of the season, then became a starter who was a defensive specialist. Now with Memphis he's dropping 20 points a game, and is being mentioned as a possible lottery pick in the draft!?! How come we didn't get all that offensive productivity when he was with us? That's the question!

We played 3 on 5 offensively in every game last season. If he had that type of ability, we failed to get it from him. We darn sure could have used against Villanova.

Have you considered the possibility that he's doing as well as he is, at least in part, because he was handled properly last year and developed his game to the point where he could do what he's doing now?

Elliot left for family reasons having nothing to do with our program. If he were here now he'd be getting plenty of minutes filled with plenty of production and everybody would be happy. But he's not and it's a shame and personally I think we should all move on.