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View Full Version : Scheyer Getting Recognized (and award speculation)



airowe
12-20-2009, 11:38 AM
http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-12-19/scheyer-emerging-among-nations-best-regardless-position


But for whatever the reason, ask even an avid college basketball fan to name the current Blue Devil most likely to be an All-American, and the common answer will be junior forward Kyle Singler.

If Scheyer has many more performances like his last three, including a 20-point, eight-assist, five-rebound effort in Saturday's surprisingly easy 76-41 victory over No. 15 Gonzaga at Madison Square Garden, that is likely to change.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/luke_winn/12/19/duke.gonzaga/index.html


1. Jon Scheyer is an All-America candidate ... and the new front-runner in the ACC Player of the Year race. It feels strange saying those things about the Duke senior who had, up until recently, always been thought of as a complementary player. I imagine a large number of non-Duke fans will begin drafting angry e-mails immediately after seeing "Scheyer" and "ACC Player of the Year" in the same sentence, and not even read the rest of this article. But in this case the numbers back up the argument.

Devilsfan
12-20-2009, 12:01 PM
Sometimes brains and on court composure are as important as how high you jump or how fast you run.

MarkD83
12-20-2009, 12:04 PM
"In that regard, Krzyzewski said Scheyer has a lot in common with a former Duke great. "He's not as big. But in the late '70s Duke had a player like him, Jim Spanarkel, who didn't have a position, but when the ball was in Jim's hands, good things were going to happen......"

Do you think that Coach K likes this team?

CameronBornAndBred
12-20-2009, 12:04 PM
No arguments. He is the best player on the team right now. Nice to see him get the recognition he deserves.

watzone
12-30-2009, 03:47 PM
When I voted on the All ACC team, I wavered on the fifth pick. I was actually interviewing Jon in Greensboro and noticed he took a look down towards my ballot. Confession, I didn't pick Scheyer. On the way home, I realized that nobody had his experience or numbers and that not including him was ludicrous. So, next time I will not worry about being called a homer with my vote. If I were to vote today, Scheyer in my eyes is the ACC Player of the Year at this point in the season and he may be hard to beat down the stretch. Anyhow, here is a post game interview with Jon - http://bluedevilnation.net/2009/12/bdn-locker-room-report-jon-scheyer-talks-duke-basketball/

airowe
12-30-2009, 04:05 PM
Thanks for the link, Mark. At this point it's going to be hard to take him down from the POY. Unless he hits a serious slump entering league play and someone else makes a big push, he'll get the award. Delaney is scoring a ton of points but he doesn't have the complete game Jon does. He's definitely the best PG (;)) in the league by far.

Hermy-own
12-30-2009, 04:12 PM
Thanks for the interview. Nobody would be more deserving of ACC POY than Jon Scheyer. It's been a long journey for this years' seniors. All of them have had their struggles, and none have gained much recognition and praise until this year. I hope they are rewarded with a successful NCAA tourney.

greybeard
12-30-2009, 06:42 PM
I do not like it that Singler makes almost all his catches outside the 3-line. I think it hurts his effectiveness. I see him much more dangerous off of strategic catches closer to the basket. As he develops a change-of-tempo, pull-up game off the dribble, making catches outside the 3-line will be less detrimental to his production. I like it when he catches within the 24-27 foot range and can get to the basket off a single dribble.

I think that Singler is the better candidate, but has yet to show it. I expect he will start to before long, especially if the coaches but more mid-range catches in the offense for him.

That said, Jon is playing terrifically and that body of work puts him out there with anyone. Calling Jon a "smart" player does half the job; a smart player sees the possibilities and decides on a course, Jon executes as well, which is necessarily a function of his intelligence but is usually associated with just out and out physical ability. Jon is a smart and gifted athlete who is showing it. Good for him.

COYS
12-30-2009, 09:09 PM
Jon is also now the number one player for offensive efficiency according to kenpom. I also happened to notice while briefly checking in on the Kentucky game last night that Jimmy Dykes, of all people, actually said that Scheyer was having a year like John Wall's in terms of stats and impact on his team. Wall obviously has a higher NBA ceiling, but Im glad someone in the national media finally realizes that Jon is equallng Wall's season at least. One could make a logical argument that if you factor in defense and turnovers that Jon is out playing Wall.

ricks68
12-30-2009, 10:56 PM
When I voted on the All ACC team, I wavered on the fifth pick. I was actually interviewing Jon in Greensboro and noticed he took a look down towards my ballot. Confession, I didn't pick Scheyer. On the way home, I realized that nobody had his experience or numbers and that not including him was ludicrous. So, next time I will not worry about being called a homer with my vote. If I were to vote today, Scheyer in my eyes is the ACC Player of the Year at this point in the season and he may be hard to beat down the stretch. Anyhow, here is a post game interview with Jon - http://bluedevilnation.net/2009/12/bdn-locker-room-report-jon-scheyer-talks-duke-basketball/

Mark,

Missed you on the boards recently. Is BDN taking up all of your time or are you just tweeting all day long, now?

ricks

JasonEvans
12-30-2009, 10:59 PM
Wall obviously has a higher NBA ceiling, but Im glad someone in the national media finally realizes that Jon is equallng Wall's season at least. One could make a logical argument that if you factor in defense and turnovers that Jon is out playing Wall.

Allow me to turn your statement around in such a way that a true student of the game might ;)

"The only way one could argue that Wall is outplaying Scheyer is if you ignore defense and turnovers."

There, that's better ;)

-Jason "Wall has better PR people working for him, aside from that, the numbers speak for themselves" Evans

ice-9
12-31-2009, 01:32 AM
More pub for Scheyer from Parrish. In naming an All-American team, he also names a few runner-ups...


Q: Who do you regret leaving off most?

A: The Kansas trio. Then there's Duke's Jon Scheyer, who is averaging 18.5 points and 6.0 assists for the seventh-ranked Blue Devils.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/12725177/freshman-wall-among-top-five-players-in-country

oldnavy
12-31-2009, 07:32 AM
Thanks for the link, Mark. At this point it's going to be hard to take him down from the POY. Unless he hits a serious slump entering league play and someone else makes a big push, he'll get the award. Delaney is scoring a ton of points but he doesn't have the complete game Jon does. He's definitely the best PG (;)) in the league by far.

Unfortunately for VT fans and Delaney, it appears that he may be out for most of league play. This only helps Jon in the POY race, but in a way I am sure that Jon or Duke fans would prefer hadn't happened.

airowe
12-31-2009, 07:37 AM
Unfortunately for VT fans and Delaney, it appears that he may be out for most of league play. This only helps Jon in the POY race, but in a way I am sure that Jon or Duke fans would prefer hadn't happened.

That injury happened almost at the exact same time I was posting. Call it the airowe curse if you want. You never want to see a guy get hurt, but it certainly opens things up for Jon.

JasonEvans
12-31-2009, 09:50 AM
Unfortunately for VT fans and Delaney, it appears that he may be out for most of league play. This only helps Jon in the POY race, but in a way I am sure that Jon or Duke fans would prefer hadn't happened.

If Delaney is out for a while, there went Va Tech's shot at an NCAA bid. At 11-1, all they needed to do was go 8-8 in the ACC and they would have been in the dance. Ahh well, gonna be hard for them to get there without Delaney.

No word yet how bad the injury was. They say he is gonna travel with the team to Cancun this weekend so he may not miss too much time.

-Jason "this feels like a down year for the ACC... hope we can still get 6 bids" Evans

jpfrizzle
12-31-2009, 10:30 AM
Why some sport experts does not give Scheyer the credit he deserves as a DUKE Blue Devil? :mad:

Most of this season games, had it not been for Scheyer, we would of lost.

KyDevilinIL
12-31-2009, 10:54 AM
When it comes to maximizing abilities, making the most of talent and simply getting stuff done when it needs to be done, Jon is one of the best I've seen in a while. He might be the best pure basketball player in the country. He only lacks the sort of genetic athletic talents that he can't control. But what he can control, he controls masterfully.

smklin
12-31-2009, 11:58 AM
Noticed an interesting stat today when I was looking over Duke's season thus far: Scheyer has more steals on the season (12) than turnovers (10). How many "point guards" can say that?

Scheyer is getting a lot of talk about his 6.6/1 assist-to-turnover ratio, but I think that the above is at least as important in that it shows that he takes the ball from the other team more than he gives it up to them.

smklin
12-31-2009, 12:03 PM
I got nervous after making my post that the other John out there might have disproved my statement, so I went to Kentucky's stat page. Sure enough, even though he's heralded as an amazing defender with great ability to steal the ball: steals 31, TOs 52. That's a ratio of 0.596/1 compared to Scheyer's 1.2/1.

Mike Corey
12-31-2009, 12:26 PM
Allow me to turn your statement around in such a way that a true student of the game might ;)

"The only way one could argue that Wall is outplaying Scheyer is if you ignore defense and turnovers."

There, that's better ;)

-Jason "Wall has better PR people working for him, aside from that, the numbers speak for themselves" Evans

To be fair to Duke's excellent SIDs, it's harder to "sell" ESPN on a 20-point performance highlighted by a dearth of turnovers than it is easier for Kentucky's SIDs to sell ESPN a 20-point performance highlighted by a reverse alley-oop dunk.

Jon's doing a terrific job in conjunction with Nolan in the backcourt regardless. In due time, the Scheyerface will get more and more national press.

calltheobvious
12-31-2009, 12:44 PM
To be fair to Duke's excellent SIDs, it's harder to "sell" ESPN on a 20-point performance highlighted by a dearth of turnovers than it is easier for Kentucky's SIDs to sell ESPN a 20-point performance highlighted by a reverse alley-oop dunk.

Jon's doing a terrific job in conjunction with Nolan in the backcourt regardless. In due time, the Scheyerface will get more and more national press.

It will be interesting to see how hard Duke's basketball office works to try to shape public opinion here. The only way to win the Scheyer-vs-Wall type of perception battle is with national writers--as you point out, this fight is unwinnable on SportsCenter.

There's no doubt that if Scheyer continues to do what he's doing, the staff at BasketballProspectus (KenPom's home-base) will carry a lot of water for Jon. The question is whether their arguments will gain enough traction to translate into the kinds of broadcaster commentary that will really move needles.

Scheyer also has the Vitale-factor to overcome. He rarely stops prattling long enough to pick up on the subtler aspects of Jon's game that add so much value to his team, nor does he ever take a breath during UK games except to engage in post-dunk cheerleading for the abilities of Mr. Wall.

airowe
01-06-2010, 10:01 AM
Great article on Jon and his return to Illinois:

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/columns/story?co lumnist=powers_scott&id=4798809

91_92_01_10_15
01-06-2010, 10:04 AM
Great article on Jon and his return to Illinois:

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/columns/story?co lumnist=powers_scott&id=4798809

This one works:

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/columns/story?columnist=powers_scott&id=4798809

airowe
01-06-2010, 10:19 AM
This one works:

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/columns/story?columnist=powers_scott&id=4798809

Thanks banner years. What are you going to do when we put up the fourth? You'll have to change your username.

91_92_01_10_15
01-06-2010, 10:35 AM
Thanks banner years. What are you going to do when we put up the fourth? You'll have to change your username.

I would gladly make that sacrifice! I'm nothing if not a team player. ;)

Greg_Newton
01-06-2010, 08:10 PM
Duke getting some MAJOR love on the halftime show on ESPN2 right now. I love how they keep making Gottlieb do the praise-specials on us. I liked us flying under the radar better, but it looks like people are finally starting to take notice.

Jon's still not getting his due respect though. Jimmy Dykes, to his credit, was trying to make his case for putting Jon in the NPOY conversation, when the analyst to his left said "Well, that might be getting a little carried away", and the anchor to his right goes "Yeah, he's not even the best player on his own team. Coming up next-" and then tried to segue into a commercial!

Jimmy was taken aback and (literally) tried to call a timeout so he could respond to this ridiculous dismissal, but was basically squelched as they went into the commercial. Kind of funny... the smarter analysts keep saying "Look, these guys are really good," but the generic talking heads haven't quite caught on yet.

Dukeface88
01-06-2010, 08:26 PM
Duke getting some MAJOR love on the halftime show on ESPN2 right now. I love how they keep making Gottlieb do the praise-specials on us. I liked us flying under the radar better, but it looks like people are finally starting to take notice.

Jon's still not getting his due respect though. Jimmy Dykes, to his credit, was trying to make his case for putting Jon in the NPOY conversation, when the analyst to his left said "Well, that might be getting a little carried away", and the anchor to his right goes "Yeah, he's not even the best player on his own team. Coming up next-" and then tried to segue into a commercial!

Jimmy was taken aback and (literally) tried to call a timeout so he could respond to this ridiculous dismissal, but was basically squelched as they went into the commercial. Kind of funny... the smarter analysts keep saying "Look, these guys are really good," but the generic talking heads haven't quite caught on yet.

To be fair, I think the arguement can be made that Singler is the better player but Scheyer has been playing better, if that makes any sense. Singler also got more preseason hype.

Greg_Newton
01-07-2010, 05:51 PM
To be fair, I think the arguement can be made that Singler is the better player but Scheyer has been playing better, if that makes any sense. Singler also got more preseason hype.

Eh... not sure I'm sold on that, and not sure if it matters either way with regard to the NPOY conversation.

But anyway, Jimmy's been tweeting about Duke and Scheyer a lot recently: here's what he had to say today:


Again. Duke G John Scheyer has to be in any legit conversation for National Player Year. 31 last nite
about 2 hours ago from txt

What kind of asst. numbers would Scheyer have if the bigs for Duke finished around the rim with more efficiency?
about 2 hours ago from txt

I think his second point is an interesting one. I suppose Jon's assist numbers may actually increase late in the season if our bigs continue to progress and they start to click a little better on lobs and transition baskets.

Dukeface88
01-07-2010, 06:28 PM
Eh... not sure I'm sold on that, and not sure if it matters either way with regard to the NPOY conversation.



I agree that it shouldn't matter for POY purposes; I'm just saying it isn't a completely insane statement on its own. It is somewhat symptomatic of the way people dismiss Jon out of hand though. Sometimes I think he'll need another "21 in 75" before people stop doing that.

CDu
01-07-2010, 08:13 PM
Gottlieb gives both Duke and UNC their props in his column today on ESPN. It's an Insider column, so I don't think I can say any more than that he's highly complimentary in that article.

For those who have Insider, here's the link:
http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/insider/columns/story?columnist=gottlieb_doug&id=4804438

For those who don't have Insider, sorry.

gumbomoop
01-07-2010, 11:52 PM
Too darned many Scheyer threads [that's not true], so it's hard to know where to say this, but K's comments quoted in the Karpowicz story [Main Page] are instructive, particularly his reference to JS's instinctual play and little-noticed hang-time. It's not normal [Dr.J, MJ, Kobe, Elgin Baylor{!!}] hang time, but it's real, linked to JS's instincts, and highly effective. It also manifests itself in an unusual variety of guises, involving moves left and right, both hands, both shoulders, north-south and east-west movement, and ball release from anywhere, and almost always soft spin off backboard.

So JS's oft-noticed [by Duke posters at least, and belatedly by the Talking Stoopids] superior court sense/bball smarts is but one manifestation of JS's very unusual - not unique but strikingly rare - instincts.

He's got game, but he doesn't look like it. Unless one looks.

WiJoe
01-08-2010, 12:36 AM
Too darned many Scheyer threads [that's not true], so it's hard to know where to say this, but K's comments quoted in the Karpowicz story [Main Page] are instructive, particularly his reference to JS's instinctual play and little-noticed hang-time. It's not normal [Dr.J, MJ, Kobe, Elgin Baylor{!!}] hang time, but it's real, linked to JS's instincts, and highly effective. It also manifests itself in an unusual variety of guises, involving moves left and right, both hands, both shoulders, north-south and east-west movement, and ball release from anywhere, and almost always soft spin off backboard.

So JS's oft-noticed [by Duke posters at least, and belatedly by the Talking Stoopids] superior court sense/bball smarts is but one manifestation of JS's very unusual - not unique but strikingly rare - instincts.

He's got game, but he doesn't look like it. Unless one looks.

Good to know somebody's reading that Karpowicz stuff :cool:

Jon has been unbelievable. I can't imagine what he might show us next. Sometimes I just laugh when he scores on one of those instinctive plays. He's great to interview. He seems totally honest (I almost fell over when, after the Wisconsin game, he said Wisconsin wanted it more). He really is the face of this team. A fan sitting next to me last night (the two end zone press rows were right next to seats available for purchase for a mere $100) asked whether JJ or Jon was the better college player. I told him Jon is more well-rounded, but that it sure was fun watching JJ stick it in someone's ear from 35 feet.

fgb
01-08-2010, 01:03 AM
scheyer this season is starting to remind me a little of john stockton.

killerleft
01-08-2010, 09:23 AM
scheyer this season is starting to remind me a little of john stockton.

This comment won't resonate with many people, but Jon's game is eerily similar to Tommy Cole's, an Elon All-American way back in the early 1970s.

Cole had that love of contact and the ability to score and draw fouls. But perhaps the striking similarity is the way Cole could and Jon can have opponents scratching their heads, wondering how in the heck the stats pile up.

Another probable future similarity. Cole is a great coach, having taken two different high school programs to state championships here in N.C.

http://www.elon.edu/e-net/Note.aspx?id=937986

sagegrouse
01-08-2010, 09:28 AM
Too darned many Scheyer threads [that's not true], so it's hard to know where to say this, but K's comments quoted in the Karpowicz story [Main Page] are instructive, particularly his reference to JS's instinctual play and little-noticed hang-time. It's not normal [Dr.J, MJ, Kobe, Elgin Baylor{!!}] hang time, but it's real, linked to JS's instincts, and highly effective. It also manifests itself in an unusual variety of guises, involving moves left and right, both hands, both shoulders, north-south and east-west movement, and ball release from anywhere, and almost always soft spin off backboard.

.

Are there any physickers on this site? Then perhaps someone can explain to Coach K and others how it is impossible to not jump high yet still have a long hang time.:):)

sagegrouse

94duke
01-08-2010, 10:08 AM
Perhaps Jon has figured out a way to alter how gravity affects him. :)

Although, it does look like the game has slowed down for Jon this year. He looks so calm and doesn't get rushed by opponents' defense. Of course, if time keeps slowing down for him, we may have to worry about a time paradox. :p

Go Duke! Beat Ga Tech!

MChambers
01-08-2010, 10:29 AM
Perhaps Jon has figured out a way to alter how gravity affects him. :)

Although, it does look like the game has slowed down for Jon this year. He looks so calm and doesn't get rushed by opponents' defense. Of course, if time keeps slowing down for him, we may have to worry about a time paradox. :p

Go Duke! Beat Ga Tech!

Scheyer is actually the first college basketball player to warp the space-time continuum.

Kedsy
01-08-2010, 12:47 PM
This conversation took place in a recruiting thread, but I thought it made more sense here:


I must say everytime I read about [Kyrie] I get chills thinking about what it will be like to have a great PG again at Duke. Not a knock on anyone we have now or have had but this kid is going to be amazing!


How much better does Jon have to play at this position to be considered a very good PG?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/acc/2010-01-07-duke-scheyer_N.htm

This USA Today piece compres Jon's stats to the most prominent Point Guards in college basketball today.

Welcome to the board, and I share your enthusiasm for Kyrie Irving, but I'd like to see Jon suitably recognized. His numbers should speak for themselves.


RW....totally agreed. I am not taking anything away from Jon...my opinion is he has done a phenomenal job and I admire his ability to take on such a task and you don't have to show me stats for me to understand this, trust me I'm with you on that. My only point was that he isn't a pure PG. I don't believe he was recruited as a PG and for his phenomenal ballhandling skills and in now way am I trying to say KI could do a better job. Just saying, if not for this particular situation we are in with guard shortage I don't believe he would be the PG. Like I've heard he and K say, you really can't designate him as a PG he's just a guard and he makes plays.

Anyways, I'm not trying to turn this thread into a debate about Jon as PG and I thank you for the input but I'll leave you with this last point. If Jon and Kyrie were on the team together who do you believe would be pegged as the PG? My guess is KI.

In my mind, Roy's question is the pertinent one. What makes someone a great PG? (For that matter, what makes someone a great player?) Jon is getting a lot of press lately, and it's well deserved, but still many (including Duke fans and DBR posters) do not consider him an elite PG. Even Coach K said something along the lines of "I don't think of him as a point guard, just a guard."

I think this discussion boils down to looks and athleticism vs. statistics. The "looks" part of it come into the discussion of whether Jon is a great player, because if you just look at him you might not think so. But that's true for a lot of point guards so I don't think it's entirely relevant for the PG discussion. Ultimately, then, it comes down to quickness/athleticism vs. statistics. If two players, game in and game out, score 20 points and have 6 assists, are they the same? Well, no, if one player has to be triple-teamed to "contain" him to 20 points and 6 assists and the other isn't guarded so closely because his defenders don't respect his abilities or because his team has other threats who are perceived to be more dangerous. Is that the difference between John Wall and Jon Scheyer? Maybe, maybe not. If you watch Kentucky play it just looks like Wall can't be guarded, but nobody really thinks that about Jon -- in the back of people's minds they think a great, athletic defender could neutralize him.

Ultimately, the answer shouldn't be neither who looks better/more athletic nor who has better statistics. It should be who best helps his team win. A great PG like John Wall (and hopefully Kyrie Irving) draws so much attention from the opposing defenses that his teammates have more freedom and opportunity to succeed -- not just on direct assists from Wall but for everything. The people defending Wall's teammates are constantly looking sideways to see if they need to slide over and help on him so that they lose their man or at the least their man has more room to shoot or an extra step to cut or drive. A great PG like Jon Scheyer helps his team win by not making mistakes and by getting the ball to his teammates when and where they have the best chance to succeed, which is subtly different for every player. Is that something an athletic defender could take away from Jon? I don't know, but I do think the answer to that question will determine how well Duke will perform over the course of the season and post-season.

In the end, Jon Scheyer is a point guard. He is his team's leader, main ballhandler and distributor, and gets plenty of assists. If he continues to play at his current level he's an elite point guard, and should be mentioned in the discussion of great Duke PGs. Is John Wall better? Will Kyrie Irving be better? I don't know, but quite frankly at the moment I don't really care, either.

DeepBlue70
01-08-2010, 01:29 PM
Not sure which Sheyer thread this belongs on but I am curious to know if anyone else remembers a news item from Jon's freshman year. As the legend of Sheyer grows, this should not be forgotten if true. As I recall, the team gives each incoming frosh a battery of physical tests to establish a baseline for their time in the program. One test measures ability to process oxygen efficiently. I seem to remember reading that JS's numbers were more efficient than Lance Armstrongs! That would truly be amazing if true...or maybe I'm just crazy. Anyone confirm?

Kedsy
01-08-2010, 01:34 PM
Not sure which Sheyer thread this belongs on but I am curious to know if anyone else remembers a news item from Jon's freshman year. As the legend of Sheyer grows, this should not be forgotten if true. As I recall, the team gives each incoming frosh a battery of physical tests to establish a baseline for their time in the program. One test measures ability to process oxygen efficiently. I seem to remember reading that JS's numbers were more efficient than Lance Armstrongs! That would truly be amazing if true...or maybe I'm just crazy. Anyone confirm?

I've heard this repeated about a zillion times, so it probably has at least some basis in truth.

MChambers
01-08-2010, 02:32 PM
In my mind, Roy's question is the pertinent one. What makes someone a great PG? (For that matter, what makes someone a great player?) Jon is getting a lot of press lately, and it's well deserved, but still many (including Duke fans and DBR posters) do not consider him an elite PG. Even Coach K said something along the lines of "I don't think of him as a point guard, just a guard."

I think this discussion boils down to looks and athleticism vs. statistics. The "looks" part of it come into the discussion of whether Jon is a great player, because if you just look at him you might not think so. But that's true for a lot of point guards so I don't think it's entirely relevant for the PG discussion. Ultimately, then, it comes down to quickness/athleticism vs. statistics. If two players, game in and game out, score 20 points and have 6 assists, are they the same? Well, no, if one player has to be triple-teamed to "contain" him to 20 points and 6 assists and the other isn't guarded so closely because his defenders don't respect his abilities or because his team has other threats who are perceived to be more dangerous. Is that the difference between John Wall and Jon Scheyer? Maybe, maybe not. If you watch Kentucky play it just looks like Wall can't be guarded, but nobody really thinks that about Jon -- in the back of people's minds they think a great, athletic defender could neutralize him.

Ultimately, the answer shouldn't be neither who looks better/more athletic nor who has better statistics. It should be who best helps his team win. A great PG like John Wall (and hopefully Kyrie Irving) draws so much attention from the opposing defenses that his teammates have more freedom and opportunity to succeed -- not just on direct assists from Wall but for everything. The people defending Wall's teammates are constantly looking sideways to see if they need to slide over and help on him so that they lose their man or at the least their man has more room to shoot or an extra step to cut or drive. A great PG like Jon Scheyer helps his team win by not making mistakes and by getting the ball to his teammates when and where they have the best chance to succeed, which is subtly different for every player. Is that something an athletic defender could take away from Jon? I don't know, but I do think the answer to that question will determine how well Duke will perform over the course of the season and post-season.

In the end, Jon Scheyer is a point guard. He is his team's leader, main ballhandler and distributor, and gets plenty of assists. If he continues to play at his current level he's an elite point guard, and should be mentioned in the discussion of great Duke PGs. Is John Wall better? Will Kyrie Irving be better? I don't know, but quite frankly at the moment I don't really care, either.

To me, Jon is definitely an elite point guard on the offensive end. Defensively, he's not, at least not in a conventional way. Don't get me wrong; he's an excellent defender. But his strong point isn't ball pressure, at least not like a Bobby Hurley or Tommy Amaker.

Kedsy
01-08-2010, 03:11 PM
To me, Jon is definitely an elite point guard on the offensive end. Defensively, he's not, at least not in a conventional way. Don't get me wrong; he's an excellent defender. But his strong point isn't ball pressure, at least not like a Bobby Hurley or Tommy Amaker.

That's a very good point. Jon does seem more comfortable as a wing defender. Maybe that's what K was talking about when he made the quote about "just a guard."

But when people question whether he's an elite PG I think they are talking about offense. Like the poster who suggested Kyrie would be our first great PG in awhile (and I've seen other posters say similar things). I mean, how much have we heard about Kyrie's defense? Or John Wall's, for that matter? I still say it's a perception vs. statistics thing.

CDu
01-08-2010, 03:21 PM
That's a very good point. Jon does seem more comfortable as a wing defender. Maybe that's what K was talking about when he made the quote about "just a guard."

But when people question whether he's an elite PG I think they are talking about offense. Like the poster who suggested Kyrie would be our first great PG in awhile (and I've seen other posters say similar things). I mean, how much have we heard about Kyrie's defense? Or John Wall's, for that matter? I still say it's a perception vs. statistics thing.

I think people who continue to say that Scheyer not an "elite" PG now are simply misusing the term "elite" when they really mean "prototypical." I was in the camp this summer that said he wasn't a prototypical PG, and I had serious reservations as to whether or not he could be an elite PG because of that. But he's proven thus far to be an elite PG this year.

dbdfan
01-08-2010, 04:20 PM
npoy poll..... go vote... bottom of the page

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/

Greg_Newton
01-08-2010, 04:57 PM
In the end, Jon Scheyer is a point guard. He is his team's leader, main ballhandler and distributor, and gets plenty of assists. If he continues to play at his current level he's an elite point guard, and should be mentioned in the discussion of great Duke PGs. Is John Wall better? Will Kyrie Irving be better? I don't know, but quite frankly at the moment I don't really care, either.

I think this is a great point, and one I'm thrilled we're even considering. But it's true, at what point do we start talking about Jon as one of the great Duke PGs?

I mean, look at Jon's YTD stats (not including last game) compared with those of Bobby Hurley, Jason Williams, Chris Duhon, and Johnny Dawkins in their final years (sorry about the formatting). I think his current performance, if sustained, would certainly belong in the company of the all-time great seasons by Duke PGs.

MIN REB AST TO STL PTS
35.1 3.7 6.4 1.3 1.2 18.8

MIN RPG APG TO SPG PPG
35.6 2.6 8.2 3.4 1.5 17.0

MIN RPG APG TO SPG PPG
33.6 3.5 5.3 3.7 2.2 21.3

MIN RPG APG TO SPG PPG
35.4 4.1 6.1 2.8 2.2 10.0

MIN RPG APG TO SPG PPG
33.1 3.6 3.2 2.7 1.3 20.2

killerleft
01-08-2010, 07:14 PM
Scheyer is actually the first college basketball player to warp the space-time continuum.

Actually, Jon has figured out how to "cheat". By being able to shoot earlier in his shooting motion than most players, and hold on to the ball when necessary until almost coming back down, he has effectively made much better use of his airtime around the basket. Combined with the warping trick it's a wonder he doesn't average 30 or 40 points a game!:p

pfrduke
01-08-2010, 07:40 PM
That's a very good point. Jon does seem more comfortable as a wing defender. Maybe that's what K was talking about when he made the quote about "just a guard."

But when people question whether he's an elite PG I think they are talking about offense. Like the poster who suggested Kyrie would be our first great PG in awhile (and I've seen other posters say similar things). I mean, how much have we heard about Kyrie's defense? Or John Wall's, for that matter? I still say it's a perception vs. statistics thing.

One thing commonly used as a proxy for "elite" point guard is the ability to, from a stand-still in isolation, break a man down off the dribble and get into the lane to score or dish. IMO, from a stand-still, Jon is not great at this - he can do it at times, but it's not his strength. We've done some fantastic work, though, to structure the offense so that he rarely has to. A healthy amount of our plays in the half-court involve Jon giving the ball up, then moving off the ball to be able to catch it when he and his defender are both in motion. With that little head start, he's superb at using body position to give himself an edge to get into a position where he can draw the defense and distribute, or take the ball to the paint and score. He really excels at catching the ball off curls in motion and immediately moving with it toward the basket. Basically, he creates the initial disruption in the defense through movement without the ball, rather than movement with the ball.

That said, I certainly agree with everyone that Jon has been playing the PG position at an elite level, if not a prototypical one.

dukestheheat
01-08-2010, 08:27 PM
Cool thing about Scheyer is that he just doesn't turn the ball over that much; and, when he does, he's either stepping out of bounds or throwing it away with a low-post entry pass. I haven't seen too many turnovers that were attributed to Scheyer that led to fast-break points for the enemy.

I'm most thankful for that!

dth.

yancem
01-08-2010, 08:30 PM
npoy poll..... go vote... bottom of the page

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/

That's weird! Wall is leading in all but 6 states. Not surprisingly NY is voting for Wesley Johnson but the states where Scheyer is leading are North and South Dakota and Maine. Wall and Scheyer are tied in Delware and Alaska. I guess the Alaskans are voting for Scheyer because of the Langdon/Boozer-Duke connection the other states? Are the people from Illinois still upset that he spurned the Fighting Illini? How about some love from NC or maybe more realistically NJ since there are more Duke fans from there? North Dakota? South Dakota? Maine? Weird!

yancem
01-08-2010, 08:52 PM
One thing commonly used as a proxy for "elite" point guard is the ability to, from a stand-still in isolation, break a man down off the dribble and get into the lane to score or dish. IMO, from a stand-still, Jon is not great at this - he can do it at times, but it's not his strength. We've done some fantastic work, though, to structure the offense so that he rarely has to. A healthy amount of our plays in the half-court involve Jon giving the ball up, then moving off the ball to be able to catch it when he and his defender are both in motion. With that little head start, he's superb at using body position to give himself an edge to get into a position where he can draw the defense and distribute, or take the ball to the paint and score. He really excels at catching the ball off curls in motion and immediately moving with it toward the basket. Basically, he creates the initial disruption in the defense through movement without the ball, rather than movement with the ball.

That said, I certainly agree with everyone that Jon has been playing the PG position at an elite level, if not a prototypical one.

This is a quality that is often associated with elite pg's but if you look at some of the all time great pg's it not a quality that they all possess. This was not Magic Johnson's best attribute. Nor was it John Stockton's. I also don't think that speed or quickness is the first thought when Steve Nash is mentioned. Jason Kidd used to have that quality but now that he's older not so much but he is still a great pg. Like these other pg's, I think that Scheyer makes up for blazing quickness by using different skills and the results speak for themselves.

Of course it is a quality that Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Derrick Rose possess in spades and they are the current standard bearers for the position. So I can see why people fixate on it.

Greg_Newton
01-08-2010, 10:06 PM
That's weird! Wall is leading in all but 6 states. Not surprisingly NY is voting for Wesley Johnson but the states where Scheyer is leading are North and South Dakota and Maine. Wall and Scheyer are tied in Delware and Alaska. I guess the Alaskans are voting for Scheyer because of the Langdon/Boozer-Duke connection the other states? Are the people from Illinois still upset that he spurned the Fighting Illini? How about some love from NC or maybe more realistically NJ since there are more Duke fans from there? North Dakota? South Dakota? Maine? Weird!

Maine, for example, has a grand total of 11 votes... I wouldn't read to much into this!;)

AlaskanAssassin
01-12-2010, 03:32 PM
Definitely getting recognized:

Midseason All-American team

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4818431


http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/insider/news/story?id=4819134

gumbomoop
01-12-2010, 04:08 PM
In my rambling entry on the post-GaTech thread, which [both my post and the thread overall] tended to discuss problem areas, I neglected to mention a couple of Scheyer plays, and I bet all of you were as wowed as I: (1) pretty early in 1st half, that runner from right to left, when JS put it up over the rim, onto the board with right hand. Few players could think and act that intuitively. The "remarkably unathletic" JS is plenty athletic and consistently, on occasion astoundingly, creative. To wit: (2) that 2-handed, long bounce pass to NS for layup in 2d half. [IIRC, even Mike Patrick noticed!] That pass started face high, and was a needle-threader, thrown with 2 hands and just the barest hint of spin and weird-angle-calculation.

I intend, as do you, to marvel at every second of JS's remaining time at Duke. Smell the roses.

Kedsy
01-12-2010, 04:10 PM
Definitely getting recognized:

Midseason All-American team

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4818431


http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/insider/news/story?id=4819134

Good ol' Jay Bilas, trying so hard not to show a Duke bias. He puts Jon on the mid-season AA team, but he finds it necessary in the writeup to say Jon is "not a true point guard" and "not a great passer." Alas.

gumbomoop
01-12-2010, 04:22 PM
Good ol' Jay Bilas, trying so hard not to show a Duke bias. He puts Jon on the mid-season AA team, but he finds it necessary in the writeup to say Jon is "not a true point guard" and "not a great passer." Alas.

Amen to Kedsy's "alas." Indeed, I wonder where JB found the courage to put JS on the tentative AA team.

What I wonder even more about, however, is how, having himself commented on that great pass by JS to NS in 2d half of GaT game [see my post above for a reminder-description, not that you folks need reminding....], JB could say JS is not a great passer. Well, true, he's only infrequently a flashy passer, but he's sure efficient. I suppose it depends on definition of "great."

Whatever; alas, alas.

Greg_Newton
01-12-2010, 04:24 PM
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/

The ESPN college basketball main page has Jon front and center right now, with a link to Bilas's article and the headline "Three Dog Fight" (referred to the NPOY race between him, Johnson and Wall).

Wonder how long it took them to find that surprisingly presentable picture of Jon?:rolleyes:

Greg_Newton
01-12-2010, 07:35 PM
Wow, not to mention another Insider link on the front page reading Scheyer edges Wall, Johnson in POY debate (http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/insider/news/story?id=4819134&addata=2009_insdr_mod_front_xxx_xxx). This thread title is getting truer every day.

Jumbo
01-12-2010, 08:02 PM
Good ol' Jay Bilas, trying so hard not to show a Duke bias. He puts Jon on the mid-season AA team, but he finds it necessary in the writeup to say Jon is "not a true point guard" and "not a great passer." Alas.


Amen to Kedsy's "alas." Indeed, I wonder where JB found the courage to put JS on the tentative AA team.

What I wonder even more about, however, is how, having himself commented on that great pass by JS to NS in 2d half of GaT game [see my post above for a reminder-description, not that you folks need reminding....], JB could say JS is not a great passer. Well, true, he's only infrequently a flashy passer, but he's sure efficient. I suppose it depends on definition of "great."

Whatever; alas, alas.


Are people really still singing this tune? Bilas argued for Scheyer as his player of the year! C'mon!

gumbomoop
01-12-2010, 08:24 PM
Are people really still singing this tune? Bilas argued for Scheyer as his player of the year! C'mon!

I stand corrected, mostly. Having read more carefully JB's ESPN column, I see that his "not a great passer" comment is admirably qualified by his praise for JS's efficiency, and other qualities. If, however, he says in this column that JS is "his player of the year," I'm still missing it. Did he "argue for" this on a tv game?

In any case, I am still inclined to sing this tune in the sense that JB seems to need to qualify his praise for Duke. But re JS, perhaps I should in fact congratulate rather than criticize JB for forthrightly stating that, so far, JS is an AA. Moreover, I can easily imagine that the ubiquitous Duke-hatred will lead many haters to call JB a homer.

The guy can't win. Half-demerit for me. I take back one of the "alas's."

Jumbo
01-12-2010, 08:30 PM
I stand corrected, mostly. Having read more carefully JB's ESPN column, I see that his "not a great passer" comment is admirably qualified by his praise for JS's efficiency, and other qualities. If, however, he says in this column that JS is "his player of the year," I'm still missing it. Did he "argue for" this on a tv game?

No, it's in the Insider column that Greg Newton linked -- the POY debate article right next to the other one.


In any case, I am still inclined to sing this tune in the sense that JB seems to need to qualify his praise for Duke. But re JS, perhaps I should in fact congratulate rather than criticize JB for forthrightly stating that, so far, JS is an AA. Moreover, I can easily imagine that the ubiquitous Duke-hatred will lead many haters to call JB a homer.

The guy can't win. Half-demerit for me. I take back one of the "alas's."

I think he's just doing his job as an analyst and breaking down Scheyer's game, as best he can.

Duke Parent 06
01-13-2010, 02:26 PM
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/

The ESPN college basketball main page has Jon front and center right now, with a link to Bilas's article and the headline "Three Dog Fight" (referred to the NPOY race between him, Johnson and Wall).

Wonder how long it took them to find that surprisingly presentable picture of Jon?:rolleyes:

Doug Gottlieb in ESPN Mag "Putbacks":

"Duke senior Jon Scheyer has an ugly J, but the results-43.2% from deep-sure look good. "His jumper spins sideways," says Coach K," but Bob Knight taught me you never mess with a guy who is making shots." The wiry guard (19.7 ppg) is playing himself into the only beauty pageant that counts -the draft..."

airowe
01-15-2010, 12:14 PM
http://www.accsports.com/articles/201001156927/crothers-scheyers-cover-is-blown.php

wgl1228
02-15-2010, 03:36 PM
I have no doubt he'll be ACC Player of the Year but do you guys think if he plays as he has lately and on into the ACC Tournament that he could get National Player of the Year? I think so many are in the media are in love with John Wall that they have neglected how unbelievable Scheyer has been. ANyway Discuss......

CDu
02-15-2010, 04:20 PM
I have no doubt he'll be ACC Player of the Year but do you guys think if he plays as he has lately and on into the ACC Tournament that he could get National Player of the Year? I think so many are in the media are in love with John Wall that they have neglected how unbelievable Scheyer has been. ANyway Discuss......

He's been in the discussion since January, but I think his case will depend on the success of the team. Our "struggles" in January along with the decline in his A/TO ratio from ungodly to just really good have hurt his case some.

I actually don't think John Wall is really a runaway favorite for the award. He's been really up-and-down in 2010. If anything Demarcus Cousins is making a pretty strong case right now. He's had a double-double in 11 of the last 14 games, and at least double figures in points or rebounds in those other three games as well.

But I'd think that Scheyer, Wall, Cousins, Wesley Johnson, Scottie Reynolds, and maybe Greg Monroe will be in the discussion for the award. If Duke (and Scheyer) finishes strong, he'll have an excellent case.

Wander
02-15-2010, 04:29 PM
But I'd think that Scheyer, Wall, Cousins, Wesley Johnson, Scottie Reynolds, and maybe Greg Monroe will be in the discussion for the award. If Duke (and Scheyer) finishes strong, he'll have an excellent case.

You're missing Evan Turner, who is actually the second most likely player to get the award after Wall.

I really don't see any way Scheyer will realistically get the award, even if Duke doesn't lose another game. But he'll be at worst a 2nd team All American and very possibly a 1st team, and that's pretty damn good.

CDu
02-15-2010, 05:05 PM
You're missing Evan Turner, who is actually the second most likely player to get the award after Wall.

I really don't see any way Scheyer will realistically get the award, even if Duke doesn't lose another game. But he'll be at worst a 2nd team All American and very possibly a 1st team, and that's pretty damn good.

Yes, that's a bad omission. Evan Turner should be there too. Statistically speaking, he should be ahead of all of those guys (including Wall). I don't think Wall is as big a slam dunk as you suggest. Especially because I think Cousins is making a strong case for himself on Wall's own team. And if Duke wins out (assuming Scheyer maintains his lofty numbers), I think we'll see Scheyer right back in the discussion for player of the year.

wgl1228
02-16-2010, 09:34 PM
Does anyone think if Scheyer continues his great play that he might have a chance at NAtional Player of the Year? I am positive he will win ACC POTY as long as Maryland does not win the ACC. I dont think they'll give it Vasquez unless the Terps were to win the league. As for National Player of The Year I think he should be in the discussion but I think the media has already chosen Wall despite Scheyers stats being just as good. Evan Turner and Wesley Johnson have also made great cases. Discuss...........

D.C. Devil
02-16-2010, 09:42 PM
Scheyer has had a great year, but I just think that the players you mention, especially Wall and Turner, have such an "eyeball test" advantage over Jon.

I say let's appreciate everything Jon has done for Duke and what he's accomplished and not get too torn up if he doesn't get the national accolades we'd love to see him get.

cwaugh
02-16-2010, 09:49 PM
Just the fact that we are even discussing this shows how much Scheyer has accomplished so far this year. I will be happy if he makes the 1st team All-American list. Not many people thought he would be in consideration for that at the end of the year.

superdave
02-16-2010, 10:51 PM
Odds of making 1st team AA
Scheyer 50%
Wall 50%
Turner 40%
W Johnson 40%
Cousins 30%
Reynolds 20%
Harangody 20%
Varnado 20%
Monroe 10%
D James 10%
Aldrich 10%
Collins 10%
K Lucas 10%
Aminu 5%
Downey 5%

That seems in the ballpark. No one is a lock yet.

verga
02-16-2010, 11:50 PM
i personally believe that Evan Turner is the best player in the country, i also think John Scheyer has an excellent chance at being 1st, team AA. If i had a vote (wouldn't that be a hoot) i'd name, Evan Turner, John Scheyer, John Wall, Scotty Reynolds and Greg Monroe. I think probably that DeMarcus Cousinds deserves to be in there somewhere but i don't like him and since i have this phantom vote, i didn't select him. As with everything that concerns me, its just an opinion but an important one. GTHCGTH. :D:):D:)