Big Ten/Eleven Looking to Expand

[juise]

Apparently, the Big Televen is thinking of adding a team (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=4745381). I think they should grab Iowa State and quickly rename themselves the Big 12, then take the existing Big XII to court for naming rights... since they now only have eleven teams. Oh, the irony!

Seriously, though, who do you think they will try to pick up? I doubt it'll be Notre Dame. Some people seem to think that Rutgers or Syracuse are viable, but I don't like the fit.

[hc5duke]

nooooo i was a big fan of their new logo with the "hidden" 11

http://www.collegehoopsjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/BigTenLogo.jpg

[MulletMan]

Apparently, the Big Televen is thinking of adding a team (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=4745381). I think they should grab Iowa State and quickly rename themselves the Big 12, then take the existing Big XII to court for naming rights... since they now only have eleven teams. Oh, the irony!

Seriously, though, who do you think they will try to pick up? I doubt it'll be Notre Dame. Some people seem to think that Rutgers or Syracuse are viable, but I don't like the fit.

Wish list:

Notre Dame
Pitt
Cincy (though I think tOSU would make sure that didn't happen)
West Virginia

I just don't see them bringing in the dead weight of Syracuse football. Rutgers is too far from BigTeleven country.

I don't think that Notre Dame is as far fetched as it was in 99 when they last explored this possibility. Notre Dame is losing its barganing chips quickly and could probably benefit from playing in the Big Ten. Heck, they play half the conference already, so its not like their schedule would take that much of a beating. You get 4 non-cons, so the keep USC, Army, and Navy with a 4th. They don't play BC anymore, and the games with Washington and Wazzou aren't rooted in any kind of history, so I don't think it'd be that big of a deal from a scheduling standpoint for them. Pride yes, scheduling no.

A question I have that I have no idea the answer to... Since every BCS school gets roughly a million dollars for each team from their conference that goes to a BCS game... what does ND get when they don't make a BCS bowl? Diddly-poo? If so, it would seem like joining a conference would be a financial benefit for them.

[Bluedog]

A question I have that I have no idea the answer to... Since every BCS school gets roughly a million dollars for each team from their conference that goes to a BCS game... what does ND get when they don't make a BCS bowl? Diddly-poo? If so, it would seem like joining a conference would be a financial benefit for them.

Notre Dame would NOT benefit financially by going to the Big Ten. They have a REALLY sweet deal with the BCS currently:


Under the new BCS arrangement Notre Dame will be guaranteed one of the at-large slots in a BCS bowl if it is ranked No. 8 or better in the final BCS Standings. It is also guaranteed annual payment for its participation in the BCS. In those seasons in which the Irish play in a BCS game, the school will receive $4.5 million (an amount equivalent that received by a conference that places a second team in a BCS bowl). In those seasons in which Notre Dame does not play in a BCS game, it is projected to be paid $1.3 million for its participation in the BCS arrangement.


The BCS is managed by the commissioners of the 11 NCAA Division I-A conferences, the director of athletics at the University of Notre Dame, and representatives of the bowl organizations. The conferences are Atlantic Coast, Big East, Big Ten, Big 12, Conference USA, Mid-American, Mountain West, Sun Belt, Pacific 10, Southeastern and Western Athletic.

http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/bcs_explained.html

On top of their HUGE contract with NBC Sports, Notre Dame has done very well for itself on the financial side...it's their own the field results that needs work.

[calltheobvious]

Notre Dame would NOT benefit financially by going to the Big Ten. They have a REALLY sweet deal with the BCS currently:





http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/bcs_explained.html

On top of their HUGE contract with NBC Sports, Notre Dame has done very well for itself on the financial side...it's their own the field results that needs work.

And the $4.5 million figure is far larger than it looks. I believe most BCS conferences (I know the SEC does it this way) put all post-season money, TV money, etc. in a pot and divvy it up at the end up the year among their member institutions. So Alabama won't get to keep nearly all of their $13m or whatever they're 'getting' to go to Pasadena. Without a conference affiliation, though, ND doesn't have to share.

That's not to say there aren't good reasons for ND to join a conference, but football and basketball money ain't among 'em.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

That's not to say there aren't good reasons for ND to join a conference, but football and basketball money ain't among 'em.

Well, I believe that they are already in the Big East for all sports except football.

[MulletMan]

Well, I believe that they are already in the Big East for all sports except football.

An excellent point, but the cash cow is football, and I think that as ND football goes, so goes the other sports. That is to say, if ND football and the B10 married, they'd bring the step kids along without worrying too much about The Big East.

[CUNKNNK]

From what I've seen come out in recent discussions, Notre Dame would be their first choice, but Missouri has been tossed around as the most realistic possibility.

[blazindw]

Wish list:

Notre Dame
Pitt
Cincy (though I think tOSU would make sure that didn't happen)
West Virginia

I just don't see them bringing in the dead weight of Syracuse football. Rutgers is too far from BigTeleven country.

I don't think that Notre Dame is as far fetched as it was in 99 when they last explored this possibility. Notre Dame is losing its barganing chips quickly and could probably benefit from playing in the Big Ten. Heck, they play half the conference already, so its not like their schedule would take that much of a beating. You get 4 non-cons, so the keep USC, Army, and Navy with a 4th. They don't play BC anymore, and the games with Washington and Wazzou aren't rooted in any kind of history, so I don't think it'd be that big of a deal from a scheduling standpoint for them. Pride yes, scheduling no.

A question I have that I have no idea the answer to... Since every BCS school gets roughly a million dollars for each team from their conference that goes to a BCS game... what does ND get when they don't make a BCS bowl? Diddly-poo? If so, it would seem like joining a conference would be a financial benefit for them.

Yea, this is a great list. I don't know if either Pitt or WVU would go without the other, at least in football. Cincy would be interesting - would be great for basketball and looking more and more great for football as well. But, the ultimate grab would have to be Notre Dame. They are #1-100 on the Big Ten's list.

With Notre Dame in the fold, here's how I think they could divvy the divisions:

East: Michigan, Michigan Snake, Ohio Snake, Penn State, Purdue, Indiana
West: Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Northwestern, Notre Dame

Somehow, I don't think they'd want Michigan-Ohio Snake as the title game after playing the week before. However, I could see them setting it up so that either (or Penn State) would play Notre Dame. Play each team in their division and 3 in the other division just like the ACC.


An excellent point, but the cash cow is football, and I think that as ND football goes, so goes the other sports. That is to say, if ND football and the B10 married, they'd bring the step kids along without worrying too much about The Big East.

If Notre Dame joined the Big Ten in football, believe that all the other sports would follow suit.

[roywhite]

Wish list:

Notre Dame
Pitt
Cincy (though I think tOSU would make sure that didn't happen)
West Virginia

I just don't see them bringing in the dead weight of Syracuse football. Rutgers is too far from BigTeleven country.

I don't think that Notre Dame is as far fetched as it was in 99 when they last explored this possibility. Notre Dame is losing its barganing chips quickly and could probably benefit from playing in the Big Ten. Heck, they play half the conference already, so its not like their schedule would take that much of a beating.

I agree with MulletMan here, and Notre Dame is a serious possibility IMO. Good match geographically, good academic school, natural rivalries already exist, and the economics could work well for both sides. Penn State, Michigan, and tOSU consistently draw crowds of 100,000+, and the Big 10/11/12 would then be able to have a conference championship. Don't know the numbers, but the Big10 Network has been successful and is an additional revenue producer for the conference schools.

Outside choices---Missouri and Maryland (who's to say the Terps wouldn't listen?). Jim Delany and John Swofford fighting over a school...that would be interesting.

[sagegrouse]

I agree with MulletMan here, and Notre Dame is a serious possibility IMO. Good match geographically, good academic school, natural rivalries already exist, and the economics could work well for both sides. Penn State, Michigan, and tOSU consistently draw crowds of 100,000+, and the Big 10/11/12 would then be able to have a conference championship. Don't know the numbers, but the Big10 Network has been successful and is an additional revenue producer for the conference schools.

Outside choices---Missouri and Maryland (who's to say the Terps wouldn't listen?). Jim Delany and John Swofford fighting over a school...that would be interesting.

It's all about TV markets. I'd give big odds against Notre Dame, about the same as the Irish appointing a Protestant as President. [What, did you say they already had a Protestant as Provost, and this guy -- despite the taint -- is now President of Wake (http://www.wfu.edu/president/), the same college that had compulsory morning Baptist chapel when I was at Duke?] Anyway, I think ND as an independent is in its DNA, and I don't think they'd want to be part of any conference -- plus, this would be the third Indiana school and the third school, along with the Illini and Wildcats, with a Chicago fan base.

I suspect Pitt would be the choice -- pairs up with new member Penn State and has been a recognized football power since the 1920's.

Academics might be a problem for WVa Univ., although I don't know a darn thing about the school.

Syracuse football would get better if added to the Big Ten, but I don't know what upstate NY markets do for ratings. I don't know if the Cuse or anyone (except the Irish) have a strong NYC following.

How about Louisville or even Kentucky? Luoisville seems a bit lame, but -- hmmm -- Kentucky. The Wildcats have not been competitive in the SEC since Bear Bryant was there after WWII, and quite frankly, the other 11 teams int he SEC are hardly compeititive with Kentucky in hoops. It would be more competitive in football in the Big Ten than in the SEC (who wouldn't?), and it would really put the Big Ten at the lead as a basketball conference. Kentucky isn't a huge state, so the argument for either team would be the fit, not the acquisition of a new market.

I don't buy Cincy, and, more importantly, neither do the financially awesome Buckeyes. It doesn't have a football tradition (the athletic tradition there begins and ends with the Big O), and it doesn't bring new fans.

sagegrouse

[hurleyfor3]

Here's a proof justifying the expansion of the Big Ten from a mathematical basis:

10 + 1 = 11
factoring out a 1 gives you
1(0 + 0) = 1(1)
then cancel the 1's
0 = 1
therefore 10 + 1 = 10 + 0 = 10
so to evaluate 11 + 1, we substitute:
11 + 1 = 10 + 0 = 10

QED. Of course they should add a team.

Anyway, the new big 10 school will be a big midwestern state school, because that's what every other school in the big 10 is (they don't need more than one Northwestern). It has to fit the "big enough fanbase to have several designated bars in Chicago where everyone goes on Saturday to get drunk and spend the day watching a meaningless football game" demographic. Ideas? I think they have to raid the Big XII.

Too bad Marquette doesn't play football. They're not a state school, but would otherwise be perfect.

[JasonEvans]

Maryland? You are joking, right Roy?

The ACC is not threatened in any way by this expansion. The Big East and maybe the Big 12 are the BCS conferences that have to worry a little bit.

Clearly, Notre Dame would be the first choice. Despite the recent struggles, adding that team to a conference would be a huge move for any league.

I think Louisville makes a lot of sense. They've been fairly good in football in the past and are a nice upgrade in basketball. Plus, they make sense from a geographic standpoint. Schools like Syracuse and Rutgers would be a travel nightmare for the non-revenue sports.

Conference USA might be a target-- is Houston too far away? They represent a huge TV market and are good in football. Memphis is a basketball stud, but sucks in football.

--Jason "hmmmm... any conference chaos could also lead to a bit more pressure for a football playoff!" Evans

[mlove3]

what about memphis? theyre decent in football and good in besketball, and theyre not too far away. i just have a problem with taking a school form one big conference to go to another, though id like a team from the big east to leave if any

[Mike Corey]

The Big 10 will likely pick off a team from either the Big 12 (not Iowa State) or the Big East.

I hope it's Notre Dame. ND's academics, Olympic sports and national stature all advance the conference, and the school fits within the geographic footprint of the league.

[Bluedog]

It has to fit the "big enough fanbase to have several designated bars in Chicago where everyone goes on Saturday to get drunk and spend the day watching a meaningless football game" demographic. Ideas? I think they have to raid the Big XII.

haha, totally true. The funny thing is that of the 30 bars within a 3-block radius of me (not exaggerating), I think there aren't ANY Northwestern bars...which is the closest school by far. Maybe there's 1. There are at least 5 Iowa and IL bars, a few Michigan, Indiana, and Wisconsin, and at least one Penn St, Ohio St, Minnesota, and Purdue.

Yeah, I think Big XII is prime to raid. Kansas, Iowa St or Missouri seem like good candidates. Although ND already has the bar scene built in so they're ahead of the game. Iowa St and Missouri only have 2 chicago bars each off the top of my head, while Kansas has 3. ;)

[roywhite]

Maryland? You are joking, right Roy?

The ACC is not threatened in any way by this expansion. The Big East and maybe the Big 12 are the BCS conferences that have to worry a little bit.

Clearly, Notre Dame would be the first choice. Despite the recent struggles, adding that team to a conference would be a huge move for any league.

I think Louisville makes a lot of sense. They've been fairly good in football in the past and are a nice upgrade in basketball. Plus, they make sense from a geographic standpoint. Schools like Syracuse and Rutgers would be a travel nightmare for the non-revenue sports.

Conference USA might be a target-- is Houston too far away? They represent a huge TV market and are good in football. Memphis is a basketball stud, but sucks in football.

--Jason "hmmmm... any conference chaos could also lead to a bit more pressure for a football playoff!" Evans

Well, perhaps existing ACC teams are untouchable; I don't have inside information on this.

But I'll venture to say that schools like Cincinnati, Louisville, and Memphis are non-starters, not so much from a sports viewpoint but academically. The Big 10/11 is a collection of large public universities with some pretty hefty research budgets and good academic ratings. Northwestern is not exactly in that mold, but is of course a fine academic school. So I'm pretty sure Delany and crew will be seeking another school that is generally compatible with the existing profile.

This is an important step for the Big10/11/12. I hope they choose well.

[RelativeWays]

Notre Dame's history, location and biggest rivalries (save USC) pretty make it an unoffical Big Ten member. Independents are pretty much dead now and I think its hurting ND competitively not being in a conference. All the biggest independents jumped into leagues and saw benefits form the most paret (though FSU is struggling now). If ND wants to stay relevant, they need to join the big ten.

[dukemsu]

Pitt is the preferred choice according to most people, other than ND.

It seems that the buzz so far points to Mizzou.

Barry Alvarez, for what it's worth (Wisconsin's former football coach and current AD) says it's either Syracuse or Rutgers.

I'd be shocked if the Big 10 can pull this off at all. This league can't even hire a decent basketball officiating crew, much less add a new team.

dukemsu

[jmb]

I think Louisville makes a lot of sense. They've been fairly good in football in the past and are a nice upgrade in basketball. Plus, they make sense from a geographic standpoint. Schools like Syracuse and Rutgers would be a travel nightmare for the non-revenue sports.

Conference USA might be a target-- is Houston too far away? They represent a huge TV market and are good in football. Memphis is a basketball stud, but sucks in football.


Houston is ~800 miles from the NEAREST Big 10 school.

Syracuse is ~900 miles from the FARTHEST Big 10 school. Rutgers around 1000

[dukemsu]

haha, totally true. The funny thing is that of the 30 bars within a 3-block radius of me (not exaggerating), I think there aren't ANY Northwestern bars...which is the closest school by far. Maybe there's 1. There are at least 5 Iowa and IL bars, a few Michigan, Indiana, and Wisconsin, and at least one Penn St, Ohio St, Minnesota, and Purdue.

Yeah, I think Big XII is prime to raid. Kansas, Iowa St or Missouri seem like good candidates. Although ND already has the bar scene built in so they're ahead of the game. Iowa St and Missouri only have 2 chicago bars each off the top of my head, while Kansas has 3. ;)


Not sure where your radius ends, but there are also at least 4 MSU bars within my radius. Plenty of places to watch pointless football. You make a great point, though-it's tough to find a bar showing Northwestern games in Evanston, much less Chicago.

dukemsu

[roywhite]

Pitt is the preferred choice according to most people, other than ND.

It seems that the buzz so far points to Mizzou.

Barry Alvarez, for what it's worth (Wisconsin's former football coach and current AD) says it's either Syracuse or Rutgers.

I'd be shocked if the Big 10 can pull this off at all. This league can't even hire a decent basketball officiating crew, much less add a new team.
dukemsu

This expansion bit is not an easy feat. How do we evaluate the addition of VaTech, Miami, and Boston College at this point? Certainly not a huge success---perhaps revenue has improved, but football has been less than expected, and basketball has gone from best to one of the best.

The Big 10 hit a home run with Penn State in the early 1990's. Now they're looking for a single or a walk, hoping to avoid a whiff.

[uh_no]

Notre Dame's history, location and biggest rivalries (save USC) pretty make it an unoffical Big Ten member.

Other than the fact that except in football, ND is a member of the big east?

[uh_no]

Barry Alvarez, for what it's worth (Wisconsin's former football coach and current AD) says it's either Syracuse or Rutgers.

dukemsu

I'm thinking jim boeheim would have something to say about syracuse leaving the big east...and I'm guessing jim has a bit more say at syracues than whoever their football coach is

[Duvall]

Other than the fact that except in football, ND is a member of the big east?

It's Notre Dame. What do sports other than football matter?

Besides, it's not like the Big East will be around in another decade anyway.

[blazindw]

The Big 10 will likely pick off a team from either the Big 12 (not Iowa State) or the Big East.

I hope it's Notre Dame. ND's academics, Olympic sports and national stature all advance the conference, and the school fits within the geographic footprint of the league.

Exactly right, my man. I really hope it's ND.

[-bdbd]

I think the Big Ten's priority list will ultimately look something like this:

Notre Dame (geogrphic fit, rich football tradition with Big 10 ties, national recogniotion, academics - but I think ND is the one school likely to turn them down...$$!).

Mizzou (brings in much more solidly the mid-size TV markets of St Louis and KC, geographic logic, some Big 10 ties already).

Pitt (they and Mizzou could flip-flop) (Solidifies hold on PA and brings in another mid-sized TV market, secures PA as fertile Big 10 recruiting ground, some existing ties, basketball help - not bad academics)

Rutgers (though bad geography, it opens them, arguably, to the huge NYC/NJ and Philly TV markets, also further secures a solid football/BB recruiting state)

Iowa State (geographic fit, good existing ties - Iowa may push for them, but no new TV or recruiting markets)

Syracuse (geographic undesirability, but new rercruiting territory, BB tradition, and arguably helps some with NY TV market - northeast presence)

Louisville (does open KY market in theory, but I just don't see the fit - same with Cincy)

*** In the end, I think it'll really be between Pitt and Mizzou, with Rutgers having an outside shot (if they think they'll get the NY and Philly markets with it)

[Scoring Point]

I think the Big Ten's priority list will ultimately look something like this:

Notre Dame (geogrphic fit, rich football tradition with Big 10 ties, national recogniotion, academics - but I think ND is the one school likely to turn them down...$$!).

Mizzou (brings in much more solidly the mid-size TV markets of St Louis and KC, geographic logic, some Big 10 ties already).

Pitt (they and Mizzou could flip-flop) (Solidifies hold on PA and brings in another mid-sized TV market, secures PA as fertile Big 10 recruiting ground, some existing ties, basketball help - not bad academics)

Rutgers (though bad geography, it opens them, arguably, to the huge NYC/NJ and Philly TV markets, also further secures a solid football/BB recruiting state)

Iowa State (geographic fit, good existing ties - Iowa may push for them, but no new TV or recruiting markets)

Syracuse (geographic undesirability, but new rercruiting territory, BB tradition, and arguably helps some with NY TV market - northeast presence)

Louisville (does open KY market in theory, but I just don't see the fit - same with Cincy)

*** In the end, I think it'll really be between Pitt and Mizzou, with Rutgers having an outside shot (if they think they'll get the NY and Philly markets with it)

I think this list is pretty accurate. Tiering is really:

ND (by a wide margin)

Mizzou and Pitt

Everybody else

Rutgers and Syracuse keep coming up because of the (ludicrously) misplaced notion that they will somehow deliver the NY metro market to the Big Ten. I have lived in the NY area and still spend a lot of time there, and can sayunequivocally that there is very little local media coverage or general fan interest in either of those schools, or in college sports generally, especially college football.

I think Penn State already gave the Big Ten the Philly market, and recruiting inroads into New Jersey.

No offense to either Louisville or Cincinnati (my hometown and a school I continue to root for), but they are both largely commuter schools and would be an incredibly tough sell to the highly image conscious Big Ten presidents

[uh_no]

It's Notre Dame. What do sports other than football matter?

Besides, it's not like the Big East will be around in another decade anyway.

Hm....i suppose its just going to evaporate?

people said it would be gone when BC miami and VT bolted....it's still there.....

pretty sure if a football school left there are quite a few mid majors that would hop at a chance to get into the basketball cash cow of the big east

[Duvall]

Hm....i suppose its just going to evaporate?

A conference cannot endure permanently half-football and half-basketball.

Eventually the football schools will get tired of sharing their BCS goodies with a bunch of I-AA Catholic schools. Then it's bye-bye BIG EAST.


pretty sure if a football school left there are quite a few mid majors that would hop at a chance to get into the basketball cash cow of the big east

Basketball cash cow? There's really no such thing.

[uh_no]

A conference cannot endure permanently half-football and half-basketball.

Eventually the football schools will get tired of sharing their BCS goodies with a bunch of I-AA Catholic schools. Then it's bye-bye BIG EAST.

Hm....they've existed for 20 years with half football half basketball.....

and there are no reports of contention within the conference....everything i've read seems to indicate everyone in the big east is quite content with the arrangement

also do you have any evidence that football money goes to the nonfootball schools? I highly doubt that's the case




Basketball cash cow? There's really no such thing.

tell that to the 5 day big east tournament in MSG.....tell that to the 18 game regular season schedule with huge match-ups every week....tell that to the other 12 teams in the conference which cashed in from the 4 elite 8 teams last year....and further from the 2 final 4 teams....not to mention the publicity the other schools get simply from having their conference talked about all the time due to the top of the conference's performance in the tournament

the big east has been around for 30 years.....and likely isn't going anywhere anytime soon

[airowe]

I'm just happy the Wolfpack will have somebody to play in the ACC/Big T(welve)en Challenge.

[Scoring Point]

Some interesting perspective here. Most notable is the disparity in football revenue between the Big East and Big Ten, as noted in the discussion of Pitt, which grossed $39 million from football in 2007-0, below the $41 million for Northwestern and the $56 million for Indiana, the Big 10's two lowest grossing programs.

http://www.crimsonquarry.com/2009/12/14/1199034/big-ten-exapansion-talk-again

[johnb]

The Big XII sees itself as every bit as strong as the Big 10/11, and both Missouri and Iowa State have been in that conference for at least 60 years. Leaving aside the finances that I don't know, they might be tired of losing to the likes of OU and Texas every year, but I'm not sure how that's worse than losing to Michigan and Ohio State. At least now they're in the Big XII North and have a shot at being in the conf championship game (in the south, they'd never make it).

I agree about the impossibility of Memphis and Louisville; those schools just aren't strong enough academically (and lack football tradition).

Aside from Notre Dame, I don't see an obvious fit. But then again, I'm still wondering how a sane person could have thought up the ACC expansion.

[sagegrouse]

Aside from Notre Dame, I don't see an obvious fit. But then again, I'm still wondering how a sane person could have thought up the ACC expansion.

Actually, there is some evidence that an insane person would have done better than the President of Duke and the Chancellor of UNC, who were the key votes, inasmuch as both schools were opposed to expansion.

Although both executives were opposed to expansion, if expansion had to occur, they favored Syracuse over Virginia Tech. As a matter of supposed principle, they voted no on everything, leaving VT as the only option that would get 3/4 of the votes.

Why would an insane person have done better, you ask? John Nash (A Beautiful Mind, played by Russell Crowe) won a Nobel Prize in economics for his work on decision-making taking into account the actions (i.e., votes) of others. Nash, as you remember, had serious mental health issues. By ignoring his work, Duke and UNC guaranteed that they would get the worst result rather than the second best.

sagegrouse
'This is my annual rant on ACC expansion -- apologies to those who have read it before'

[Acymetric]

Actually, there is some evidence that an insane person would have done better than the President of Duke and the Chancellor of UNC, who were the key votes, inasmuch as both schools were opposed to expansion.

Although both executives were opposed to expansion, if expansion had to occur, they favored Syracuse over Virginia Tech. As a matter of supposed principle, they voted no on everything, leaving VT as the only option that would get 3/4 of the votes.

Why would an insane person have done better, you ask? John Nash (A Beautiful Mind, played by Russell Crowe) won a Nobel Prize in economics for his work on decision-making taking into account the actions (i.e., votes) of others. Nash, as you remember, had serious mental health issues. By ignoring his work, Duke and UNC guaranteed that they would get the worst result rather than the second best.

sagegrouse
'This is my annual rant on ACC expansion -- apologies to those who have read it before'

You know, for a long time I agreed, but for some reason this morning I realized that I don't want Syracuse in the ACC. I enjoy pulling for them too much, something I might not be able to do as easily if we played them on a regular basis.

Plus, wasn't expansion also meant to boost football? Because Syracuse would have brought Dukes poor football reputation even lower...imagine what the conference would look like if you swapped VT and SU this year...would we even be able to maintain BCS status in the long run?

[MulletMan]

I think this list is pretty accurate. Tiering is really:

ND (by a wide margin)

Mizzou and Pitt

Everybody else

Rutgers and Syracuse keep coming up because of the (ludicrously) misplaced notion that they will somehow deliver the NY metro market to the Big Ten. I have lived in the NY area and still spend a lot of time there, and can sayunequivocally that there is very little local media coverage or general fan interest in either of those schools, or in college sports generally, especially college football.



So first, yes, I think that Rutgers and the Cuse are ludicrous. You really think Syracuse is going to say, "Eh screw tradition and regional rivalries with UConn, G'town and the rest... let's take our crappy football team to the Big Ten where we can really strive for 0-12 every year!"? No.

Right then... everyone seems to agree that it 1. ND, 2a. Pitt, 2b. Mizzou.

So for fun, let's say one of those does agree to join up with the Big 10... then who fills their voids?

I say if ND or Pitt join up and you've got an open spot in the Big East that the logical fill is Memphis. I realize that geographically that's a little far, but it would get their flagship program, Men's Basketball, out of CUSA, and they'd bring a Big East caliber football team along for the ride.

Now, if the Big 10 is able to pilfer Mizzou (or perhaps ISU, as I don't think Mizzou is going anywhere) who takes their spot in the Big12? You'd have to offer it to TCU, right? I mean, that's the logical choice isn't it? Who else could it be?

Thoughts?

[CDu]

An excellent point, but the cash cow is football, and I think that as ND football goes, so goes the other sports. That is to say, if ND football and the B10 married, they'd bring the step kids along without worrying too much about The Big East.

The question is, would Notre Dame want to join the Big Ten? They just signed a nice TV contract extension. They already have a sweet deal with the BCS that means if they have a remotely good season they'll be in a BCS game. If they joined the Big-10, they'd have a tougher time getting into a BCS game AND they'd then have to share that revenue with the other eleven schools.

I think Notre Dame would be the no-brainer choice of the Big Ten. I just don't think the Big Ten is a no-brainer choice for Notre Dame. They already have a good revenue sharing with the Big East for other sports, and they have a great situation with the BCS in football.

[Olympic Fan]

This is the third time the Big Ten (11) has made a serious study of going to 12 teams.

The first two times, the proposed expansion started and stopped with Notre Dame. When the Irish said no, the league shut it down and decided to stay at 11.

Look, we can all agree that from the Big Ten's point of view, Notre Dame is the ideal fit. The 12th spot is clearly theirs if they want it.

Do they want it? I doubt it, based on some of the arguments made earlier in this thread. Financially, their football is MUCH better off (financially) as an independent and the Big East gives them a conference home in every other spot. The only question is whether a decade-plus of mediocrity has convinced the powers at Notre Dame that they need a conference to remain competitive on the field. Personally, I don't think they've reached that point yet.

That brings up the next question: Is the Big Ten really determined to go to 12 schools or is this merely another bid to bring in Notre Dame? I THINK that it's the former. I think the lure of a championship game will push them to finally look elsewhere if Notre Dame again says no.

So the big question is who is next in line?

Like bdbd and others, I agree that Pitt and Missouri are next in line. My only slight disagreement is the feeling that Missouri is far and away the top candidate (after Notre Dame). Geographically, it expands the league's footprint in a very logical and productive way (look at a map of the Big Ten and you'll see that Missouri slides in right underneath Iowa and just to the left of Illinois, almost like the last missing piece of a jigsaw puzzle). It gives you the entire Missouri market (which is one of the top 15 states in population).

On the other hand, Pitt adds nothing to the footprint. The league already has the (Nittany) Lion's share of the Pennsyvania market. Iowa State is already second-fiddle in its state to Big Ten power Iowa.

Missouri, as a large state-supported school, is also more like the majority of the Big Ten schools than Pitt.

Agree that the suggestion of Rutgers and Syracuse are unlikely. Suggesting that Rutgers will bring the New York market is about as silly as the ACC thinking that Boston College would bring the ACC the Boston market.

I have heard about unofficial feelers between Missouri and the Big Ten. We'll see where that goes.

What would the Big 12 do if Missouri was to bolt? Well, remember that the league is just over a decade old -- it was formed when the old Big Eight raided the Southwest Conference and stole its four strongest members (Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech and Baylor), thereby destroying that league.

They could easily fill the gap by bringing in one of the SWC teams it shunned in the 1990s -- TCU is the best football power of the bunch. It could also go after Houston, which might have a more balanced athletic program. Or they could think outside the Texas box and go after somebody like Boise State. They could also try to lure old SWC member Arkansas back from the SEC, but I doubt that happens (the SEC is more profitable than the Big 12).

[roywhite]

It would probably be more interesting to hear Kevin White's take on this than roywhite's take :)...but I think ND will give a new overture from the B10/11 serious consideration and perhaps join this time.

Heard a lot of commentary saying the ND football job is not the same as it was in the Lou Holtz days, not as attractive and more difficult to get top talent. Some of that may be a function of the previous HC choices, but it also could be that the "Independent" status is no real plus, and perhaps a bit of a liability.

[blazindw]

I think academics will play a factor (in addition to the money). All of the Big 10 schools are in the top 71 schools in the country according to US News (say what you will about these rankings, but most people do look at them as the barometer of a school's academic reputation).

NW - 12
Mich - 27
Ill - T-39
Wisc - T-39
PSU - T-47
OSU - T-53
Minn - T-61
Pur. - T-61
Ind. - T-71
MSU - T-71
Iowa - T-71

Possible Big 10 12th member:
ND - 20
Pitt - 56
Mizzou - T-102

I think that geographically, academically, football-and-basketball-ically, ND is choice 1-100. Pitt and Mizzou if the Big 10 really want to expand to 12. But ND has got to strongly consider making the move.

[towerview road]

In case you were curious (following Donald's analysis), here's how the ACC breaks down, in terms of rankings:

Duke - 10
Univ. of Virginia - 24
UNC - T-28
Wake Forest - T-28
Boston College - 34
Georgia Tech - T-35
Univ. of Miami - T-50
Univ. of Maryland - T-53
Clemson - T-61
Virginia Tech - T-71
NC State - T-88
Florida State - T-102

A pretty darn good showing :D Almost half of the conference is ranked 35th or higher!

[biscuit30]

If and when the Big10/11 expands to a 12th school, what will the name of the conference be named? The Big 12 is already used and while The Big 10 works with the hidden 11, do they keep the current name?

[uh_no]

[QUOTE=towerview road;342888 Almost half of the conference is ranked 35th or higher![/QUOTE]

in fact, exactly half the conference is ranked 35th or higher

[formerdukeathlete]

Actually, there is some evidence that an insane person would have done better than the President of Duke and the Chancellor of UNC, who were the key votes, inasmuch as both schools were opposed to expansion.

Although both executives were opposed to expansion, if expansion had to occur, they favored Syracuse over Virginia Tech. As a matter of supposed principle, they voted no on everything, leaving VT as the only option that would get 3/4 of the votes.

Why would an insane person have done better, you ask? John Nash (A Beautiful Mind, played by Russell Crowe) won a Nobel Prize in economics for his work on decision-making taking into account the actions (i.e., votes) of others. Nash, as you remember, had serious mental health issues. By ignoring his work, Duke and UNC guaranteed that they would get the worst result rather than the second best.

sagegrouse
'This is my annual rant on ACC expansion -- apologies to those who have read it before'

UVa was also opposed to expansion, or so thought Nan, so she felt we had the votes to stop the move to 11 / 12, and then make a revote on 10, just Miami, as K suggested. She did not anticipate the Va legislature putting pressure on UVa to back Va Tech.

Your post is excellent indeed. Nan and UNC both went for the blond, blocked each other, neither won, we got the step sister. We might have assigned more weight to the lobbying of UVa by lawmakers and the Conference office, and figured expansion inevitable.

[sagegrouse]

If and when the Big10/11 expands to a 12th school, what will the name of the conference be named? The Big 12 is already used and while The Big 10 works with the hidden 11, do they keep the current name?

I would offer up two considerations:

"The Bigger Ten"

"The Big Ten Plus"

sagegrouse
'Or maybe change to the dodecimal system, in which 12 becomes 10.:p'

[J_C_Steel]

The University of Pittsburgh makes sense. If one accepts the maxim that football is king, then Pitt will improve its standing as a football school by leaving the Big East for the Big Ten. Sure, it will hurt for basketball, but there is something to be said for being a bigger fish in a smaller pond.

Ron Cook of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (tagline: One of America's Great Newspapers) is of a similar mind:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09351/1021570-87.stm

[dukemsu]

Buzz in Chicago today, via the Tribune, is that the Big 10 is looking at adding as many as 3 schools.

Wow. Believe it when I see it, but there's a lot of smoke around this right now.

dukemsu

[Reddevil]

This of course is not the first time this conversation has has come up. Notre Dame is always mentioned, but a few years ago Nebraska was the "hot" team being discussed. I wonder why they are not in the mix this time? BTW, I think they should be called the Great Lakes Conference.

[blazindw]

Buzz in Chicago today, via the Tribune, is that the Big 10 is looking at adding as many as 3 schools.

Wow. Believe it when I see it, but there's a lot of smoke around this right now.

dukemsu

I think that would be a big mistake. Watered down big money sports in football and basketball (unless they get all of ND, Pitt and Mizzou), but also there would be more teams getting a split of the money. I don't see how that helps the conference make more money.

[juise]

In a shocking development, Notre Dame's official comments (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4750901) on Big Televen expansion are pretty much what you'd expect. They're basically saying "the answer is still no," but phrasing it in a way ("preference") that makes it sound as if they aren't the ones who ultimately make the decision.