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DukieBoy
12-09-2009, 10:45 AM
On FirstTake on ESPN this morning, Jalen Rose and Skip Bayless were discussing on 1st and 10 whether LeBron James showboats too much.

Jalen started off by saying, and this is basically an exact quote...

"The first kid in that video, from UNC, Danny Green, needs to sit down and shut up. He had issues with showboating in college but he got it done then. He needs to sit down until he does something."

I knew I liked Jalen for a reason :)

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-09-2009, 11:33 AM
No offense, but you must not be old enough to remember some of the epic Duke/Michigan battles of the early 90's then. There's no one on the Fab Five that would ever be my favorite anything.

On top of being cocky, egotistical players, they brought in the baggy shorts AND handed UNC a championship.

All, inexcuseable.

As a young Duke fan, very little made me happier than watching our clean-cut, team-oriented squads defeat Steve Fisher's teams.

roywhite
12-09-2009, 12:02 PM
No offense, but you must not be old enough to remember some of the epic Duke/Michigan battles of the early 90's then. There's no one on the Fab Five that would ever be my favorite anything.

On top of being cocky, egotistical players, they brought in the baggy shorts AND handed UNC a championship.

All, inexcuseable.

As a young Duke fan, very little made me happier than watching our clean-cut, team-oriented squads defeat Steve Fisher's teams.

Fab Five's record vs Duke
0-5

moonpie23
12-09-2009, 12:19 PM
they brought in the baggy shorts

and? you'd prefer the tighty-shortys?



As a young Duke fan, very little made me happier than watching our clean-cut, team-oriented squads defeat Steve Fisher's teams.

define "clean cut"

sagegrouse
12-09-2009, 12:21 PM
define "clean cut"

How about Grant Hill's veal chop haircut? The sidewalls were clean as a whistle.

sagegrouse

DukieinIndy
12-09-2009, 12:25 PM
On top of being cocky, egotistical players, they brought in the baggy shorts AND handed UNC a championship.



As a young Duke fan, very little made me happier than watching our clean-cut, team-oriented squads defeat Steve Fisher's teams.


Aaaaaaand it's comments like that that may cause some people to think that Duke is elitist. I may be reading your comments the wrong way but this instantly comes across in an offensive way.

I'm with Moonpie, I want to know what you mean by "clean cut."

sagegrouse
12-09-2009, 12:31 PM
Here's the back story. To get the complete picture, you needed to see Joakim Noah start giving his critique. This actually happened, never mind the "dream/nightmare" conceit:


From an earlier thread:
Or maybe it was a nightmare.

Here’s what I dreamed last night. There was a Cavs-Bulls game in Cleveland. There was a clip of former UNC clown and Cavaliers guard, Danny Green, teaching LeBron James some of Danny’s dance steps.

Then it seemed like during the game, LeBron began to show off some of those steps in a celebration near the Bulls bench. Bulls forward Joakim Noah took exception. I guess Joakim learned dancing from either his father Yannick, tennis star and pop singer, or his mother Cecilia, a former Miss Sweden. A shouting match ensued.

The refs assessed LeBron a technical foul, although it was not clear in the dream whether it was for the shouting, the taunting behavior, or the ineptitude of the dancing. Or for aping Danny Green, which I suppose was the real crime.


sagegrouse

Duvall
12-09-2009, 12:41 PM
Context, with video (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Video-Joakim-Noah-takes-exception-to-LeBron-Jam?urn=nba,206931).

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-09-2009, 12:50 PM
Aaaaaaand it's comments like that that may cause some people to think that Duke is elitist. I may be reading your comments the wrong way but this instantly comes across in an offensive way.

I'm with Moonpie, I want to know what you mean by "clean cut."

Okay, fair enough. Those early 90's Duke teams were very much old-school basketball. They didn't woof after big plays, they passed the ball around, no baggy shorts - heck, back then, they didn't even have the Nike swoosh on their jerseys, I think. Duke graduated their players and didn't have criminal records.

The Duke program as a whole was just hitting it's stride - generally thought of as a "can't win the big game" program. K was in Dean's shadow. Duke fans were actually excited about things like #1 rankings and final fours rather than complaining about the lack of championships.

Duke was everything that Michigan was not. Michigan's class came in with lots of whispers of allegations (later garnering sanctions from the NCAA) and all the attitude with none of the accomplishments.

Certainly, Duke's program has changed with the times - some of our guys in recent years have had a little more swagger than K would have allowed in the early years and even that second championship team in 1992 developed a sharp sense of entitlement. Nothing stays the same forever.

What I am saying is, it was extemely satisfying watching a Duke program that did things the "right way" beat up on a Michigan program that seemed like it was not.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-09-2009, 12:54 PM
Aaaaaaand it's comments like that that may cause some people to think that Duke is elitist. I may be reading your comments the wrong way but this instantly comes across in an offensive way.

I'm with Moonpie, I want to know what you mean by "clean cut."

As far as finding it offensive or elitist, I think you are taking me the wrong way entirely. If I were posting on a Michigan fan site, I wouldn't say these things and smack talk their most successful era. But, I've heard diehard Michigan fans struggle to defend the early 90's Steve Fisher teams.

I'm on a Duke site and I am reminiscing about good times and Duke teams that I took pride in supporting. I'm certainly not looking to offend anyone here.

Am I off base?

juise
12-09-2009, 12:56 PM
Context, with video (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Video-Joakim-Noah-takes-exception-to-LeBron-Jam?urn=nba,206931).

Thanks. I hadn't seen that. I love how Luol is just sitting there with a stone cold expression... not impressed by any of that extra-curricular garbage.


It is definitely disturbing to see the best player in the game take on Danny Green's shtick. I enjoy Rose's take on the situation. (And for the record, I would have been cocky if I was 19 and part of the most publicized recruiting class ever. As Duke fans, the only thing we have to be bitter about is the UNC championship... 'cause, as others have noted, Duke owned the Fab 5.)

BD80
12-09-2009, 01:07 PM
Fab Five's record vs Duke
0-5

Golly. Is that why they were called the Fab Five?

alteran
12-09-2009, 01:19 PM
Aaaaaaand it's comments like that that may cause some people to think that Duke is elitist. I may be reading your comments the wrong way but this instantly comes across in an offensive way.

I'd prefer comments like that not be made, but let's get real-- comments like that are what people use to RATIONALIZE calling Dukies elitist-- but they're going to call us elitist either way. Whether those comments are said or not is immaterial.

Random shmoes saying elitist things from Maryland, UNC, Virginia, or anywhere else don't seem to get the "hey, that's why people say all your fans are smug" treatment.

I'd prefer to note that implying everyone associated with a team is "elitist" because one of their fans says something construable as elitist is stupid beyond belief. For my money, I wish we all would avoid the trap of playing along with that foolishness. JMEO.

alteran
12-09-2009, 01:22 PM
No offense, but you must not be old enough to remember some of the epic Duke/Michigan battles of the early 90's then. There's no one on the Fab Five that would ever be my favorite anything.

On top of being cocky, egotistical players, they brought in the baggy shorts AND handed UNC a championship.

All, inexcuseable.

As a young Duke fan, very little made me happier than watching our clean-cut, team-oriented squads defeat Steve Fisher's teams.

Yeah, but as someone noted, they always lost.

I love the smell of Fab Five trash talk in the morning. Smells like... Duke victory.

Hard to really hate guys that talk smack and always lose to you. (Not that I'm against hate per se.)

And if they talk junk on tarholes? Gotta give 'em props for that.

DukieinIndy
12-09-2009, 01:23 PM
Certainly, Duke's program has changed with the times - some of our guys in recent years have had a little more swagger than K would have allowed in the early years and even that second championship team in 1992 developed a sharp sense of entitlement. Nothing stays the same forever.

What I am saying is, it was extemely satisfying watching a Duke program that did things the "right way" beat up on a Michigan program that seemed like it was not.

I see what you're saying especially in regards to the sanctions. My apologies for misunderstanding your comments.

DukieinIndy
12-09-2009, 01:28 PM
I'd prefer to note that implying everyone associated with a team is "elitist" because one of their fans is an elitist is stupid beyond belief. For my money, I wish we all would avoid the trap of playing along with that foolishness. JMEO.

I definitely agree with you but it just gives people more ammunition for calling us elitist. I hate the fact that because of one or a few people the rest of the group gets the label, but, why even give them the opportunity.

Anyways, I have to like Jalen Rose because of his time with the Pacers :D

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-09-2009, 01:28 PM
I see what you're saying especially in regards to the sanctions. My apologies for misunderstanding your comments.

Apology accepted. We're all on the same side here.

Seriously, I can't get past Chris Webber's timeout.

Kills me. They got a banner for that.

jipops
12-09-2009, 01:33 PM
No offense, but you must not be old enough to remember some of the epic Duke/Michigan battles of the early 90's then. There's no one on the Fab Five that would ever be my favorite anything.

On top of being cocky, egotistical players, they brought in the baggy shorts AND handed UNC a championship.

All, inexcuseable.

As a young Duke fan, very little made me happier than watching our clean-cut, team-oriented squads defeat Steve Fisher's teams.

For Duke fans, comments like these can be a tad embarrassing and I think you can see why.

I love Jalen's comments btw. 100% correct.

Duvall
12-09-2009, 01:35 PM
For Duke fans, comments like these can be a tad embarrassing and I think you can see why.


And even then, 1992 was a long time ago, and Jalen Rose is no longer a teenager.

alteran
12-09-2009, 01:37 PM
Apology accepted. We're all on the same side here.

Seriously, I can't get past Chris Webber's timeout.

Kills me. They got a banner for that.

LOL. I take back my not hating them.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-09-2009, 01:49 PM
For Duke fans, comments like these can be a tad embarrassing and I think you can see why.

I love Jalen's comments btw. 100% correct.

No offense, but how many of the people who are "offended" or "embarassed" by this were basketball fans and remember this Michigan team?

Bandwagon fans were coming out of the woodwork to watch this "team" play. They were guns for hire and thought they just had to show up and everything would be handed to them. They were early 90's UNLV without the defense and the coaching.

I really don't see anything embarassing about taking pride in a program that does things correctly definitively beating a program that is suspect.

Now, I feel compelled to comment that I completely agree with Jalen's comments stated by the original poster. I'm really not meaning to hijack this thread into a talk about the perceptions of 1990's Duke v. 1990's Michigan. I thought that an offhand comment about how Jalen Rose was a member of one of the only non-UNC teams I've ever really hated wouldn't be cause for lots of discussion or alarm.

Anyway, back to focus - Jalen is right. GO DUKE.

Indoor66
12-09-2009, 01:55 PM
Apology accepted. We're all on the same side here.

Seriously, I can't get past Chris Webber's timeout.

Kills me. They got a banner for that.

They also got a banner for Freddie Brown's pass! :mad:

DukeBlueNikeShox
12-09-2009, 01:58 PM
So LeBronze can dance and showboat, but he can't shake hands after the game when he loses?!

What got me about the whole situation was that LeBronze was acting so hard, talking so much ish, and wanted to fight.....but he was wearing a pink sleeve and pink shoes!! lmao

LeBronze is a joke. Can't stand the dude (but he's a good basketball player)

weezie
12-09-2009, 02:02 PM
Did LeBronnie ever apologize for his refusal to address the media or the fans after the Cavs final loss last year? I recall being nonplussed at this revelation as to what a sad representative he was for his team and his home town.
Was there any further blow back on his behavior?

juise
12-09-2009, 02:20 PM
What got me about the whole situation was that LeBronze was acting so hard, talking so much ish, and wanted to fight.....but he was wearing a pink sleeve and pink shoes!! lmao


Similiar to what the NFL did in October, that pink is meant to lift breast cancer screening awareness (http://nikelebron.net/2009/12/05/cavs_handle_bulls_james_named_potm_debuts_pink_nik e_lbj7/). I give respect to any man who wears pink on a national stage for this cause... but that's just me.

For all of the attention and scrunity Lebron has had from a very young age, I think it's a credit to him that the non-handshake is considered his biggest error thus far. It was not a good thing and may reflect poorly on his character, but overall, I would say that Lebron has carried himself pretty well. I think that his being easily influenced by an incredibly annoying rookie Heel is probably the most concerning thing decision I've seen on his part. :p

Wheat/"/"/"
12-09-2009, 02:27 PM
....AND handed UNC a championship.


Revisionist history that only basketball fans with limited knowledge of the facts keep repeating.

Fact:
UNC played an outstanding game, was in the lead as the clock wound down to 11 seconds remaining. At that point, trapping defense and the pressure of the moment forced a mental TO from Chris Webber, denying a last ditch attempt to try and take the lead from a defense that was set...better coaching for Michigan may have prepared him better....better players...a better team...would have never been behind in that situation.

The best team won.

Duvall
12-09-2009, 02:31 PM
Revisionist history that only basketball fans with limited knowledge of the facts keep repeating.

True.

Casual fans blame Webber for his timeout error; more knowledgeable fans blame the entire Fab Five for 40 minutes of choking against a substantially less-talented opponent.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-09-2009, 02:44 PM
True.

Casual fans blame Webber for his timeout error; more knowledgeable fans blame the entire Fab Five for 40 minutes of choking against a substantially less-talented opponent.

Hey now - "casual fans" v. "more knowledgeable fans?" That's a little caustic don't you think? I've been a very intense and "learned" basketball fan for the last thirty years. Whatever happened to simply disagreeing?

Regardless, Michigan would have had a chance to win if Webber hadn't had his regretable transgression.

From Wikipedia's entry on Chris Webber (these sentences sum up everything I've been saying):

On April 5, 1993, at Michigan's second consecutive NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Championship game, Webber infamously called a time-out with 11 seconds left in the game when his team, down 73-71, did not have any remaining, resulting in a technical foul that effectively clinched the game for North Carolina. The game marked the end of Webber's acclaimed two year collegiate basketball career. In his second season, he was a first team All-American selection and a finalist for the John R. Wooden Award and Naismith College Player of the Year.[2] These awards and honors have been vacated due to University of Michigan and NCAA sanctions related to the University of Michigan basketball scandal.

emphsis mine

/can't believe montross has a ring

Rich
12-09-2009, 02:54 PM
That was one tough final to watch. Those were easily Duke's two most despised "rivals" at the time.

Regarding the timeout, people also seem to forget that Webber walked at the beginning of the possession and the refs blew the call. He should never had a chance to call a timeout with possession of the ball.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-09-2009, 02:55 PM
Hey now - "casual fans" v. "more knowledgeable fans?" That's a little caustic don't you think? I've been a very intense and "learned" basketball fan for the last thirty years. Whatever happened to simply disagreeing?

Regardless, Michigan would have had a chance to win if Webber hadn't had his regretable transgression.

From Wikipedia's entry on Chris Webber (these sentences sum up everything I've been saying):

On April 5, 1993, at Michigan's second consecutive NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Championship game, Webber infamously called a time-out with 11 seconds left in the game when his team, down 73-71, did not have any remaining, resulting in a technical foul that effectively clinched the game for North Carolina. The game marked the end of Webber's acclaimed two year collegiate basketball career. In his second season, he was a first team All-American selection and a finalist for the John R. Wooden Award and Naismith College Player of the Year.[2] These awards and honors have been vacated due to University of Michigan and NCAA sanctions related to the University of Michigan basketball scandal.

emphsis mine

/can't believe montross has a ring

Here's what happened and the correct sequence of events in the final minute.....

"Michigan answered UNC’s 72-67 lead with four straight points, as Chris Webber’s score inside narrowed the Tar Heels’ lead to 72-71 with 0:36 to go. Pat Sullivan was then fouled, and the UNC forward hit his first free throw but missed his second.

Webber snatched the rebound, dribbled downcourt and found himself trapped by the Tar Heel defense on the right wing. Webber quickly put his hands together to signal timeout.

One problem, however. There were none left for Webber & Co. to call. A technical foul was called, Williams hit two free throws, and the Tar Heels led 75-71 with 11 seconds left..."

UNC put 73 on Mich. to their 71 before the "time out", which was forced to some extent.
Nobody on Michigan's team drained those pressure packed free throws for Williams after Webber's "time out" to seal it either......

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-09-2009, 02:57 PM
That was one tough final to watch. Those were easily Duke's two most despised "rivals" at the time.
Regarding the timeout, people also seem to forget that Webber walked at the beginning of the possession and the refs blew the call. He should never had a chance to call a timeout with possession of the ball.

Thanks for validating that for me. I was starting to think I had lost my mind.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-09-2009, 02:59 PM
That was one tough final to watch. Those were easily Duke's two most despised "rivals" at the time.

Regarding the timeout, people also seem to forget that Webber walked at the beginning of the possession and the refs blew the call. He should never had a chance to call a timeout with possession of the ball.

I wasn't even going to bother mentioning that poor call.....

UNC took that game, nobody "gave" it to them.

juise
12-09-2009, 02:59 PM
Regarding the timeout, people also seem to forget that Webber walked at the beginning of the possession and the refs blew the call. He should never had a chance to call a timeout with possession of the ball.

True (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH1ujxNwrkA).

sagegrouse
12-09-2009, 03:05 PM
Webber snatched the rebound, dribbled downcourt and found himself trapped by the Tar Heel defense on the right wing. Webber quickly put his hands together to signal timeout.

One problem, however. There were none left for Webber & Co. to call. A technical foul was called, Williams hit two free throws, and the Tar Heels led 75-71 with 11 seconds left..."



IIRC Webber was in front of the Michigan bench. His teammates were screaming "No time outs! No time outs!" He, of course, heard that as "Time out! Time out!" He called the TO.

He realized his mistake and then had a big embarrassed grin on his face, which made it appear he thought it was funny. As far as I was concerned, that was a "See ya!" move, and announced he was through with college.

sagegrouse

Wheat/"/"/"
12-09-2009, 03:11 PM
IIRC Webber was in front of the Michigan bench. His teammates were screaming "No time outs! No time outs!" He, of course, heard that as "Time out! Time out!" He called the TO.

He realized his mistake and then had a big embarrassed grin on his face, which made it appear he thought it was funny. As far as I was concerned, that was a "See ya!" move, and announced he was through with college.

sagegrouse

I always thought that dragging his foot there at the start of the play threw him off, took away his concentration all the way down the floor. It was almost like he was thinking about how lucky he was that wasn't called and then woke up to find himself trapped.....then it was an Oh *&^! moment.

Rich
12-09-2009, 03:23 PM
Have any of the Fab 5 won a post high school championship of any kind?

oldnavy
12-09-2009, 03:38 PM
Apology accepted. We're all on the same side here.

Seriously, I can't get past Chris Webber's timeout.

Kills me. They got a banner for that.

That and Freddy Brown tossing the ball to Worthy! Those two championships galvanized in my mind that UNC had/has a golden horseshoe.

ChicagoCrazy84
12-09-2009, 03:43 PM
The only former Michigan player I have a problem with is Rumeal Robinson because of his problems off the court and what he did to his mom. Jalen Rose is a cool guy and Chris Webber and Juwan Howard, I have no gripes with. Not sure whatever happened with Ray Jackson or...I can't remember the fifth.
Anyway, because Duke beat the crap out of Michigan in the Final Four in '92, I don't have any negative memories of them. Actually, I thought they were good for college basketball if anything.

Rich
12-09-2009, 03:51 PM
Jalen Rose is a cool guy and Chris Webber and Juwan Howard, I have no gripes with. Not sure whatever happened with Ray Jackson or...I can't remember the fifth.

Jimmy King

oldnavy
12-09-2009, 04:00 PM
I always thought that dragging his foot there at the start of the play threw him off, took away his concentration all the way down the floor. It was almost like he was thinking about how lucky he was that wasn't called and then woke up to find himself trapped.....then it was an Oh *&^! moment.

Have to agree with Wheat again (dang it, that's twice now!). UNC won that game. Webber made a bone head play, but UNC was in the lead, so there is no guarantee that they score.

In fairness, if we had been in that game I doubt anyone would be questioning the validity of the banner.

Indoor66
12-09-2009, 04:23 PM
In fairness, if we had been in that game I doubt anyone would be questioning the validity of the banner.

We weren't so we do.

rasputin
12-09-2009, 04:35 PM
We weren't so we do.

Well, that banner is hardly at the top of the list of questionable UNC banners.;)

allenmurray
12-09-2009, 04:38 PM
only basketball fans with limited knowledge of the facts

I've always enjoyed your posts. But when an avowed unc fan comes on a Duke board, and refers to its posters Duke fans as you just did, it is not hard to see why many find you to be a bit of a troll.

moonpie23
12-09-2009, 04:51 PM
exactly which of these guys is not "clean cut" ?

I'm just curious..

flyingdutchdevil
12-09-2009, 04:54 PM
exactly which of these guys is not "clean cut" ?

I'm just curious.. is that "code" for something else?

What does that sign mean? Never seen anything like it before.

roywhite
12-09-2009, 05:03 PM
That and Freddy Brown tossing the ball to Worthy! Those two championships galvanized in my mind that UNC had/has a golden horseshoe.

Which could be further validated by the 1957 NCAA championship, where the Heels won two triple-overtime games in the Final Four, defeating Michigan State amd Kansas for the title. And of course the 1924 "championship". :rolleyes:

jipops
12-09-2009, 05:06 PM
No offense, but how many of the people who are "offended" or "embarassed" by this were basketball fans and remember this Michigan team?

Bandwagon fans were coming out of the woodwork to watch this "team" play. They were guns for hire and thought they just had to show up and everything would be handed to them. They were early 90's UNLV without the defense and the coaching.

I really don't see anything embarassing about taking pride in a program that does things correctly definitively beating a program that is suspect.


It's not as embarrassing if one can recognize that one's own program's poop can stink too.

It's not like everyone we've had has come with a halo around his head. We're essentially talking about teenagers here.

As a basketball fan, how could you have not been intrigued by this assemblage of players? They had a lot to do with altering the landscape of college basketball, both good and bad. Like them or not, this was a landmark team for college basketball. I recognize there were some infractions (maybe there is a better word) that surrounded this team. But I really don't like this notion of 'we've got better people than you' kind of attitude. It's how people may generally see the ideology of Duke fans and it's a stereotype that sucks. I don't like seeing it reinforced.

jipops
12-09-2009, 05:12 PM
True.

Casual fans blame Webber for his timeout error; more knowledgeable fans blame the entire Fab Five for 40 minutes of choking against a substantially less-talented opponent.

What I remember is Donald Williams completely torching a team from the 3pt line and George Lynch playing excellent defense. And I despise UNC.

roywhite
12-09-2009, 05:18 PM
It's not as embarrassing if one can recognize that one's own program's poop can stink too.

It's not like everyone we've had has come with a halo around his head. We're essentially talking about teenagers here.

As a basketball fan, how could you have not been intrigued by this assemblage of players? They had a lot to do with altering the landscape of college basketball, both good and bad. Like them or not, this was a landmark team for college basketball. I recognize there were some infractions (maybe there is a better word) that surrounded this team. But I really don't like this notion of 'we've got better people than you' kind of attitude. It's how people may generally see the ideology of Duke fans and it's a stereotype that sucks. I don't like seeing it reinforced.


They weren't that bad? "Everybody does it" Let's not be too judgmental?

If you recall, it came out that:
Ed Martin had made "loans" or outright payments of over $600,000 to at least 4 Michigan players, one of whom was Chris Webber
Michigan ended up on probation
Steve Fisher lost his job
All or part of 5 seasons were vacated
Scholarships were reduced
1992/1993 NCAA appearance were wiped from the books
Chris Webber All-America honors were stripped

It was a huge mess and shame on the Michigan players, coaches, and boosters. I don't mind saying it.

Duvall
12-09-2009, 05:23 PM
What I remember is Donald Williams completely torching a team from the 3pt line and George Lynch playing excellent defense. And I despise UNC.

I was mostly trying to tweak Wheat.

I hadn't noticed the "Nickel Nose" bit before. Nice.

DukieBoy
12-09-2009, 05:26 PM
To clarify other things that Jalen said during his segment, Skip did point out that Jalen was a member of the infamous Fab 5. His response went something along the lines of

"Yes, but what we did was on the court. We trash talked teams but we never danced on the sidelines during games and even during plays"

I respect him for that. And yes, I am a young Duke fan and never have seen either of Duke's games against the Fab 5 in the '92 season. However, I don't think you can hate someone just because they played on an opposing team in college.

The Gordog
12-09-2009, 05:59 PM
Have to agree with Wheat again (dang it, that's twice now!). UNC won that game. Webber made a bone head play, but UNC was in the lead, so there is no guarantee that they score.

In fairness, if we had been in that game I doubt anyone would be questioning the validity of the banner.

It's not the validity per se, but the worthiness of its owners.


Edit: I AM LAETTNER !!!!!!!

Wheat/"/"/"
12-09-2009, 06:59 PM
I've always enjoyed your posts. But when an avowed unc fan comes on a Duke board, and refers to its posters Duke fans as you just did, it is not hard to see why many find you to be a bit of a troll.

You guys have the home court advantage on me here already...now you don't expect me to play tough? :)

I understand your point and will take it to heart. It was a quick response and I probably should have been a little kinder, in hindsight...I'll work on harnassing my competitive nature a little better.

This is a great board, an intellectual hoops playground. When people see a post around here that should remain in the sandbox and away from the swing set, there is usually a nanny that comes out.

This time it was me.

It proved too difficult for me not to counter a post disparaging a hard fought UNC national title.

I might get a little overly defensive at times, but I just can't sit idly by an see a comment that was so disrespectful and so easily challenged as:

"Seriously, I can't get past Chris Webber's timeout. Kills me. They got a banner for that"...

" ....AND handed UNC a championship..."

Please....no-one would respect me in the morning :)

Wheat/"/"/"
12-09-2009, 07:03 PM
I was mostly trying to tweak Wheat.


I enjoy my "tweaks" shaken, not stirred...:)

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-09-2009, 07:44 PM
exactly which of these guys is not "clean cut" ?

I'm just curious..

Yes, they are fine looking young gentlement.

If we are going to get into semantics, I suppose I should clarify that what I was referring to was the general stink of the program in the Fab Five era. The fallout and sanctions which came henceforth confirmed what everyone knew - something wasn't right.

Yes, sure, they "changed the game." But if you cheat to change the game, should I really put you on an altar?

It was said best earlier in the thread. In the early 1990's Michigan was just below UNC as far as our rivals went. Much like in the early 2000's, Maryland occupied that space. Would I get killed for saying that I disliked Lonnie Baxter or Steve Blake?

I am concerned that the Fab Five has been cannonized for "changing the game." They didn't win a championship and they cheated. As far as I'm concerned, they are Memphis in 2007.

Yeah, sure, I should give Carolina more credit for the 1993 NCAA Championship, but geez guys, this is a Duke board and I don't feel uncomfortable saying I hate Carolina. I don't really want to give them credit for much of anything.

So, at the end of the day, I did some research on Jalen Rose and it seems he has done some good philanthropic work. Fine, geez, I take it back. Rose probably isn't a bad guy. He probably loves his mother and goes to church.

It's much more fun to have villains like Calipari, Tarkanian, and Doherty in our world, isn't it?

DukieBoy
12-09-2009, 07:57 PM
I am concerned that the Fab Five has been cannonized for "changing the game."

No one said they made a huge positive impact or anything. They changed the entire nature of the game. They brought the long shorts, trash-talking, cocky swagger into the game of college basketball.

killerleft
12-09-2009, 08:01 PM
They weren't that bad? "Everybody does it" Let's not be too judgmental?

If you recall, it came out that:
Ed Martin had made "loans" or outright payments of over $600,000 to at least 4 Michigan players, one of whom was Chris Webber
Michigan ended up on probation
Steve Fisher lost his job
All or part of 5 seasons were vacated
Scholarships were reduced
1992/1993 NCAA appearance were wiped from the books
Chris Webber All-America honors were stripped

It was a huge mess and shame on the Michigan players, coaches, and boosters. I don't mind saying it.

They were, however, clean-cut! Seriously, I (and, I bet, nearly everyone else here) figured Mountain_Devil was referencing the shady nature of the Michigan program. But what would we do without the ever-ready Politically Correct Thought Police? That was a nice touch to not really SAY the word 'racist', though.

That Michigan program was as slimy as any I can remember. At what age can we finally expect young people to know the difference between right and wrong?

Stray Gator
12-09-2009, 08:19 PM
I enjoy my "tweaks" shaken, not stirred...:)

Wheat,

Check your DBR private messages re: the tickets we discussed last week.

77devil
12-09-2009, 09:09 PM
I
He realized his mistake and then had a big embarrassed grin on his face, which made it appear he thought it was funny. As far as I was concerned, that was a "See ya!" move, and announced he was through with college.

sagegrouse

A friend of mine bought Chris Webber's house in Philadelphia a few years back. He found some interesting pictures in a closet that Chris should not have left behind. Chris and his "friends" had big grins on their faces.

dukestheheat
12-09-2009, 09:31 PM
That was one tough final to watch. Those were easily Duke's two most despised "rivals" at the time.

Regarding the timeout, people also seem to forget that Webber walked at the beginning of the possession and the refs blew the call. He should never had a chance to call a timeout with possession of the ball.

.....on the fully obvious walk by Webber, but as I remember telling myself, I wonder if many refs (or, any refs?) would make that call in that game at that particular point of the game?

dth.

jipops
12-09-2009, 10:04 PM
They weren't that bad? "Everybody does it" Let's not be too judgmental?

If you recall, it came out that:
Ed Martin had made "loans" or outright payments of over $600,000 to at least 4 Michigan players, one of whom was Chris Webber
Michigan ended up on probation
Steve Fisher lost his job
All or part of 5 seasons were vacated
Scholarships were reduced
1992/1993 NCAA appearance were wiped from the books
Chris Webber All-America honors were stripped

It was a huge mess and shame on the Michigan players, coaches, and boosters. I don't mind saying it.

Please indicate where I said "Everybody does it". I NEVER stated this and it has nothing to do with my point. Yes, there was shame put on the program. My point was - please don't put forth the 'Duke is holier than thou' attitude.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-09-2009, 10:07 PM
.....on the fully obvious walk by Webber, but as I remember telling myself, I wonder if many refs (or, any refs?) would make that call in that game at that particular point of the game?

dth.

Too obvious not to call....even in that situation.

That guy can't show up at the annual Ref Christmas party even today without being snickered at...:)

roywhite
12-09-2009, 10:21 PM
Please indicate where I said "Everybody does it". I NEVER stated this and it has nothing to do with my point. Yes, there was shame put on the program. My point was - please don't put forth the 'Duke is holier than thou' attitude.

You are of course correct that you did not state "everybody does it". I put that in quotes just to characterize an implied theme of equivalence, which I think is often made.

In this case, Duke was holier than those.

jipops
12-09-2009, 10:27 PM
You are of course correct that you did not state "everybody does it". I put that in quotes just to characterize an implied theme of equivalence, which I think is often made.


This was certainly not the intended implication but I can see how it would appear that way.



In this case, Duke was holier than those.

Yes, as were many other programs.

RelativeWays
12-09-2009, 10:31 PM
I don't know what Mountain Devil is talking about. Christian Laettner was the embodiment of a cocky, "I'm better than you and we all know it" athlete. If any Duke player ever had swagger, its him (and Hurley was not far behind). I loved Laettner because it and wish we had more players like him. I think Kyle is close to turning the corner. You know he thinks he's better than anyone he plays against, you can see it in his eyes,

juise
12-09-2009, 10:35 PM
.....on the fully obvious walk by Webber, but as I remember telling myself, I wonder if many refs (or, any refs?) would make that call in that game at that particular point of the game?

dth.

This reminds me of the non-call when Boozer in the 2002 loss to Indiana. Ever since then, I have not been a fan of the situational officiating argument. Call the game consistently throughout and make the right call down the stretch. If the game ends on free throws, so be it.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-09-2009, 10:52 PM
Call the game consistently throughout and make the right call down the stretch. If the game ends on free throws, so be it.

Agreed.

A grey area call, like a pushing battle for position in the paint, fine. A ref might make a call early to get some control, and let 'em play late.

But not something like an obvious walk. That's simply a mistake by the player that must be penalized. Especially at crunch time.

Imagine if that was Duke playing that game, Webber dragged that foot, no call, collected himself and went on to hit a fade away jumper at the buzzer to win.......

This place would go nutz, and rightfully so.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-09-2009, 10:58 PM
I don't know what Mountain Devil is talking about. Christian Laettner was the embodiment of a cocky, "I'm better than you and we all know it" athlete. If any Duke player ever had swagger, its him (and Hurley was not far behind). I loved Laettner because it and wish we had more players like him. I think Kyle is close to turning the corner. You know he thinks he's better than anyone he plays against, you can see it in his eyes,

Don't forget JJ.

The biggest compliment a fan can pay a player is to whine about how much they hate him....speaking of Hans, he had a double double tonight you know :)

roywhite
12-09-2009, 11:07 PM
speaking of Hans, he had a double double tonight you know :)

And played hard?

And found another missing doggy?

jipops
12-09-2009, 11:12 PM
Don't forget JJ.

....speaking of Hans, he had a double double tonight you know :)

on 4-14 shooting, nice. The 11 boards is impressive though.

allenmurray
12-10-2009, 08:28 AM
Don't forget JJ.

The biggest compliment a fan can pay a player is to whine about how much they hate him....speaking of Hans, he had a double double tonight you know :)

wow!

jv001
12-10-2009, 10:12 AM
Don't forget JJ.

The biggest compliment a fan can pay a player is to whine about how much they hate him....speaking of Hans, he had a double double tonight you know :)

does hanstravel getting a dbl/dbl have anything to do with the Jalen Rose thread? Go Duke!

Kedsy
12-10-2009, 11:47 AM
Too obvious not to call....even in that situation.

I completely agree. I was there, in the end zone on that side of the court, and I could not believe they let it go. My recollection is he also had kind of a funny dribble later in the possession that was a borderline carry before he ultimately called the TO he didn't have (for which I entirely blame the Michigan coaching staff).

I dislike the Heels as much as anybody, but to say they didn't deserve the championship because the other team made a mistake is crazy.

Kedsy
12-10-2009, 12:14 PM
The other thing this thread reminds me of is that we recruited Chris Webber pretty hard. In my opinion that was a much bigger miss than either Patterson or Monroe, but whether you agree with that or not, at the very least it should give food for thought to those who believe our missing on big man recruits is a recent phenomenon, or has something to do with Wojo or the Olympics.

barjwr
12-10-2009, 12:32 PM
. . . Christian Laettner was the embodiment of a cocky, "I'm better than you and we all know it" athlete. If any Duke player ever had swagger, its him . . .

But Laettner backed it up by, you know, winning something (actually two somethings). And he did it without illegal "recruiting" money in his pocket.

gus
12-10-2009, 12:44 PM
...to say [something to disparage, minimize or outright deny a rival team's accomplishments] is crazy.

true, but it's not like college basketball fanhood epitomizes rationality. if we're shopping together my wife rolls her eyes when I refuse to consider something soley because it's too pale of a blue. Some would consider that a little crazy.

Bostondevil
12-10-2009, 01:17 PM
true, but it's not like college basketball fanhood epitomizes rationality. if we're shopping together my wife rolls her eyes when I refuse to consider something soley because it's too pale of a blue. Some would consider that a little crazy.

My MAN!!! Carolina blue does not touch my skin. Ever. I have a great story to tell about that sometime for anyone who wants to hear it.

But, back to Jalen Rose. Sounds like someone I'd like to listen to, I'll pay attention next time. And maybe, just maybe, '93 left a bad taste in his mouth regarding a certain championship team. So, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Welcome, Jalen Rose.

sagegrouse
12-10-2009, 01:41 PM
true, but it's not like college basketball fanhood epitomizes rationality. if we're shopping together my wife rolls her eyes when I refuse to consider something soley because it's too pale of a blue. Some would consider that a little crazy.

My wife is a past master at sneaking a color past her mate. When she showed me a living-room paint color that appeared to be pale blue, I challenged her. "Not really Carolina blue," she said. "It's more of a robin's egg blue and has some green in it. Besides, you can't really tell one pastel color from another." [Ouch]

sagegrouse
'What color is sage? How the heck do I know? I just eat it.'

Indoor66
12-10-2009, 02:02 PM
My wife is a past master at sneaking a color past her mate. When she showed me a living-room paint color that appeared to be pale blue, I challenged her. "Not really Carolina blue," she said. "It's more of a robin's egg blue and has some green in it. Besides, you can't really tell one pastel color from another." [Ouch]

sagegrouse
'What color is sage? How the heck do I know? I just eat it.'

Green - and the sagegrouse is the most stupid bird in the world. In Wyoming we call them sage chickens.

SBell
12-10-2009, 05:15 PM
IIRC Webber was in front of the Michigan bench. His teammates were screaming "No time outs! No time outs!" He, of course, heard that as "Time out! Time out!" He called the TO.

He realized his mistake and then had a big embarrassed grin on his face, which made it appear he thought it was funny. As far as I was concerned, that was a "See ya!" move, and announced he was through with college.

sagegrouse

Obviously Webber wasn't in front of the Michigan bench after getting a defensive rebound. However, one U-M player, bench-warmer Michael Talley, was signaling for one from the sideline on the other end of the court.

And didn't most of the Michigan players have shaved heads? Hard to get cleaner cut than that!

RainingThrees
12-10-2009, 07:06 PM
Getting back to Lebron and Green, Lebron doesn't have the right to do any of that dancing till he wins a ring, (and I have never seen stars with rings acting like that, Bill Russell and kareem certainly didn't ). Danny Green as a rookie has as much right to taunt and dance around as I do to command the military.

allenmurray
12-10-2009, 07:19 PM
Getting back to Lebron and Green, Lebron doesn't have the right to do any of that dancing till he wins a ring, (and I have never seen stars with rings acting like that, Bill Russell and kareem certainly didn't ). Danny Green as a rookie has as much right to taunt and dance around as I do to command the military.

Hard as it may be to believe, a) LeBron does not care what we think, and 2) his primary job is to sell tickets.

devildownunder
12-10-2009, 07:35 PM
Okay, fair enough. Those early 90's Duke teams were very much old-school basketball. They didn't woof after big plays, they passed the ball around, no baggy shorts - heck, back then, they didn't even have the Nike swoosh on their jerseys, I think. Duke graduated their players and didn't have criminal records.

The Duke program as a whole was just hitting it's stride - generally thought of as a "can't win the big game" program. K was in Dean's shadow. Duke fans were actually excited about things like #1 rankings and final fours rather than complaining about the lack of championships.

Duke was everything that Michigan was not. Michigan's class came in with lots of whispers of allegations (later garnering sanctions from the NCAA) and all the attitude with none of the accomplishments.

Certainly, Duke's program has changed with the times - some of our guys in recent years have had a little more swagger than K would have allowed in the early years and even that second championship team in 1992 developed a sharp sense of entitlement. Nothing stays the same forever.

What I am saying is, it was extemely satisfying watching a Duke program that did things the "right way" beat up on a Michigan program that seemed like it was not.


The 91-92 Duke squad had more swagger than a little bit, and Christian Laettner did PLENTY of trash-talking. None of that bothers me but your description of the 91-92 team as a bunch of pristinely mannered choirboys does because it strikes me as a caricature -- and i think the same could be said for your description of the kids from Michigan.

devildownunder
12-10-2009, 07:42 PM
It's not as embarrassing if one can recognize that one's own program's poop can stink too.

It's not like everyone we've had has come with a halo around his head. We're essentially talking about teenagers here.

As a basketball fan, how could you have not been intrigued by this assemblage of players? They had a lot to do with altering the landscape of college basketball, both good and bad. Like them or not, this was a landmark team for college basketball. I recognize there were some infractions (maybe there is a better word) that surrounded this team. But I really don't like this notion of 'we've got better people than you' kind of attitude. It's how people may generally see the ideology of Duke fans and it's a stereotype that sucks. I don't like seeing it reinforced.

To borrow a term from another blog, "This".

jipops, you hit the nail on the head and the attitude you describe is exactly what helps Duke cop some of the heat it does. I loved it when Duke played the "fab 5" because they were a good, high-profile team and competing with and beating them was a thrill. When people start to see this "good triumphs over evil" stuff in it, I think we start to drift toward some darker elements of human nature.

devildownunder
12-10-2009, 07:48 PM
Hard as it may be to believe, a) LeBron does not care what we think, and 2) his primary job is to sell tickets.

as a Cavs fan and former Cleveland resident, I'd rather see LeBron focus on being as good as he always says he wants to be. His team has some issues that need to be addressed right now. Plus, the business w/the Bulls the other night was over the top. I mean, c'mon, he spent half the game dancing on the sidelines. You can't show up other elite-league pros like that and not expect repercussions.

Kedsy
12-10-2009, 08:26 PM
Obviously Webber wasn't in front of the Michigan bench after getting a defensive rebound. However, one U-M player, bench-warmer Michael Talley, was signaling for one from the sideline on the other end of the court.

What are you talking about? When he called that timeout he was directly in front of the Michigan bench after (badly) dribbling from the baseline to over half court, where he got trapped.

juise
12-10-2009, 11:30 PM
What are you talking about? When he called that timeout he was directly in front of the Michigan bench after (badly) dribbling from the baseline to over half court, where he got trapped.

Yeah, I posted a link on page two of this thread if anyone needs a video refresher.

AnimalFriendly
12-11-2009, 09:40 AM
What are you talking about? When he called that timeout he was directly in front of the Michigan bench after (badly) dribbling from the baseline to over half court, where he got trapped.

Actually if you look closely, you'll see that Webber was about to call a timeout right after he grabbed the rebound off the missed free throw - this was before the egregious uncalled travel even happened.

allenmurray
12-11-2009, 10:40 AM
as a Cavs fan and former Cleveland resident, I'd rather see LeBron focus on being as good as he always says he wants to be. His team has some issues that need to be addressed right now. Plus, the business w/the Bulls the other night was over the top. I mean, c'mon, he spent half the game dancing on the sidelines. You can't show up other elite-league pros like that and not expect repercussions.

I agree with you completely. However, that doesn't diminish my two points. Basketball is primarily entertainment. Winning sells tickets, but so do other things. There is a correlation between winning and selling tickets, but it is not a 1:1 correlation. Also, LeBron does care what the fans think in the aggregate (because they have to sell tickets). However, he doesn't care what individual fans think. So as long as fans in the aggregate like his show, the show will continue, despite what folks like you and I might want to see.

jipops
12-11-2009, 10:53 AM
I agree with you completely. However, that doesn't diminish my two points. Basketball is primarily entertainment. Winning sells tickets, but so do other things. There is a correlation between winning and selling tickets, but it is not a 1:1 correlation. Also, LeBron does care what the fans think in the aggregate (because they have to sell tickets). However, he doesn't care what individual fans think. So as long as fans in the aggregate like his show, the show will continue, despite what folks like you and I might want to see.

However, if he continues to dance AND lose in the playoffs, fans in the aggregate will tire of the show. The entertainment value will sharply diminish.

Winning seems to sell the most.

theAlaskanBear
12-11-2009, 11:10 AM
I agree with you completely. However, that doesn't diminish my two points. Basketball is primarily entertainment. Winning sells tickets, but so do other things. There is a correlation between winning and selling tickets, but it is not a 1:1 correlation. Also, LeBron does care what the fans think in the aggregate (because they have to sell tickets). However, he doesn't care what individual fans think. So as long as fans in the aggregate like his show, the show will continue, despite what folks like you and I might want to see.

my 2 cents:

while Danny Green is probably one of the most annoying players ever to grace Carolina, and LeBron showboating like that was a bonehead move, this is incident is blown out of proportion.

the real story in cleveland is that they are no where near as good a team as last year. Mike Brown may be the most offensively inept coach in the league, and adding Shaq is going to get them nowhere. In fact, it has undermined the one thing Brown is good at: defense.

At this point there is not the slightest chance James stays in Cleveland, but thats a good thing, because I want to see him grow as a player under a good coach. James is as good as he is ever going to be on a Mike Brown team.

Mcluhan
12-12-2009, 12:21 PM
Hi everyone, longtime lurker here, born and raised in Durham, now lurking from San Francisco.

I almost hate to bring it up now that the conversation appears to have died down a bit, but it must be mentioned that of the gee-whiz squeaky clean bunch in 1992 we did have one convicted drunk driver and one player who was widely considered at least as arrogant as the brash Fab Five and also something of a dirty player. Things I'm willing to forgive-- I too was in college once-- but the kind of things that I really do think stick on a 'blacker' programs record longer than it did with most people's memories of our program.

I love them both, and I love that whole team, but it is funny how people form perceptions. I disliked the Fab Five back then, and it was satisfying to beat them each and every time they trash talked us, but I have to say, they've truned out to be a fairly likable and successful bunch. Juwan Howard has always been considered one of the classiest players in the league, and a valuable locker room guy even if he's not getting minutes. Webber and Rose have both gotten good broadcast careers underway, and Webber in particular strikes one as a nice person. Like Grant, he apparently has a sizable Af-Am art collection.

phaedrus
12-12-2009, 12:47 PM
Winning seems to sell the most.

Hence, the NBA's dream Spurs-Pistons final in '05?

roywhite
12-12-2009, 01:19 PM
Hi everyone, longtime lurker here, born and raised in Durham, now lurking from San Francisco.

I almost hate to bring it up now that the conversation appears to have died down a bit, but it must be mentioned that of the gee-whiz squeaky clean bunch in 1992 we did have one convicted drunk driver and one player who was widely considered at least as arrogant as the brash Fab Five and also something of a dirty player. Things I'm willing to forgive-- I too was in college once-- but the kind of things that I really do think stick on a 'blacker' programs record longer than it did with most people's memories of our program.

I love them both, and I love that whole team, but it is funny how people form perceptions. I disliked the Fab Five back then, and it was satisfying to beat them each and every time they trash talked us, but I have to say, they've truned out to be a fairly likable and successful bunch. Juwan Howard has always been considered one of the classiest players in the league, and a valuable locker room guy even if he's not getting minutes. Webber and Rose have both gotten good broadcast careers underway, and Webber in particular strikes one as a nice person. Like Grant, he apparently has a sizable Af-Am art collection.

In time people may forget the shame that the Fab5 brought to the University of Michigan and college basketball. They disgraced a proud university and nearly ruined the basketball program there through their greed and disregard for the rules.

The same was not true of the 1992 Duke Blue Devils.

Why people seek to find some equivalence is mysterious.

Mcluhan
12-12-2009, 02:05 PM
In time people may forget the shame that the Fab5 brought to the University of Michigan and college basketball. They disgraced a proud university and nearly ruined the basketball program there through their greed and disregard for the rules.

The same was not true of the 1992 Duke Blue Devils.

Why people seek to find some equivalence is mysterious.

Fair enough. I hear you on that. I went into my post more wanting to address issues of clean cutness, baggy pants, etc., and certain manichean frames being used to frame the Duke-Fab5 matchup.