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Channing
12-08-2009, 03:04 PM
In my mind, the best player in college football is Suh (witness, e.g., the Big XII title game). The stats he puts up as an interior lineman are absurd.

The best offensive player in the country, imo, is Toby Gerhart.

I think those are the two least likely of the five to win it. If McCoy or Tebow win it it will have to be as some sort of career achievment award, because neither had spectacular seasons. What are other thoughts?

blazindw
12-08-2009, 03:09 PM
I disagree. I think McCoy's had a great season. And, no disrespect to Suh, but no one outside of Big 12 circles had really talked about him until the Big 12 title game. I don't think that he was the best player in college football this year, and I don't think giving it to McCoy would be a "career achievement". I think Spiller should have been a finalist. He has dominated this year and at times singlehandedly carried Clemson on his back to victory (like during the Miami game). If I had a vote, it would go McCoy 1st, Spiller 2nd, Gerhart 3rd.

Duke4Ever32
12-08-2009, 03:27 PM
I disagree. I think McCoy's had a great season. And, no disrespect to Suh, but no one outside of Big 12 circles had really talked about him until the Big 12 title game. I don't think that he was the best player in college football this year, and I don't think giving it to McCoy would be a "career achievement". I think Spiller should have been a finalist. He has dominated this year and at times singlehandedly carried Clemson on his back to victory (like during the Miami game). If I had a vote, it would go McCoy 1st, Spiller 2nd, Gerhart 3rd.

I agree with it going to McCoy. Interestingly enough, I just had ESPN on, and a crawler at the bottom of the screen was talking about their "Heisman Predictor" and the mathematical formulas and historical analysis that goes into it. It had McCoy winning the Heisman.

NashvilleDevil
12-08-2009, 03:29 PM
I disagree. I think McCoy's had a great season. And, no disrespect to Suh, but no one outside of Big 12 circles had really talked about him until the Big 12 title game. I don't think that he was the best player in college football this year, and I don't think giving it to McCoy would be a "career achievement". I think Spiller should have been a finalist. He has dominated this year and at times singlehandedly carried Clemson on his back to victory (like during the Miami game). If I had a vote, it would go McCoy 1st, Spiller 2nd, Gerhart 3rd.

You never heard about Suh because all the talking heads were busy blowing up Tebow and McCoy and that makes sense since they are the QBs for two very high profile programs. But Suh has been this dominant in every game this year. Unfortunately I can only catch a handful Husker games (miss going to games at Memorial Stadium) but when they were on you knew that Suh was going to make a handful of plays that just blew your mind.

Suh won't win Saturday as a Husker fan I'm glad he will represent the university in New York. I think the order will be Ingram, Gehart, Suh. Ingram has bounced back from the game against Auburn and I think the fact that Alabama has never had a Heisman winner will give him enough votes to edge out Gehart.

NashvilleDevil
12-08-2009, 03:33 PM
I agree with it going to McCoy. Interestingly enough, I just had ESPN on, and a crawler at the bottom of the screen was talking about their "Heisman Predictor" and the mathematical formulas and historical analysis that goes into it. It had McCoy winning the Heisman.

This site has been spot on the last 7 years in predicting the winner, http://stiffarmtrophy.com/

I also think their may be a backlash with awarding it to another QB. Same thing happened in 1997 when Woodson won it over Manning.

Wander
12-08-2009, 03:41 PM
McCoy is a very good college quarterback but he hasn't quite had a Heisman-worthy season. Clausen of Notre Dame is an example of a QB who's been better this year, and you can't be the best player in the country if you're not the best player at your position.

Suh, on the other hand, has been awesome. It's insane to think how much he influences games as a defensive tackle. I think Gerhart is also a good choice.

I have no idea why Tebow is even a finalist. That's a joke.

Channing
12-08-2009, 03:41 PM
McCoy failed to throw for 200 yards 4 times this season. Twice UT blew out their opponent and twice it was a lot closer than people thought it would be. McCoy had a good season, but I don't think he had a Heisman season. Not only that, he looked pretty pedestrian in his two statement games (vs. OU and vs. Neb). Against a pretty mediocre, to say the least, schedule this year (only one team UT played finished the year ranked - Nebraska), McCoy should have put up more dominant numbers. Casey Keenum put up equally, if not more, gaudy stats, but isnt in NY because of the level of competition. I see the same for McCoy, he is just living off his name right now.

I heard Suh mentioned all year. He was largely dismissed because he is an interior defensive lineman, but his dominance was so obvious in the big XII championship game that it gave him the push he needed. Almost every pundit out there is calling him a once in a generation type player - the same type of verbage used to describe Tebow last year and the year before.

Gerhart carried the ball over 100 more times than Spiller, scored twice as many touchdowns, and had the same yds/rush average. Spiller was more of a weapon in the passing and return game, but his rushing numbers were not, on the whole spectacular (failing to break 100 yards on multiple occasions).

JasonEvans
12-08-2009, 03:55 PM
I think Gerhart was the best player in college football this year, slightly better than Spiller.

I think McCoy will win the Heisman and I am fine with that.

If Tebow sniffs a win, I will be disgusted. He hasn't even been among the 5 best players in college ball this season... not even close.

--Jason

hc5duke
12-08-2009, 04:10 PM
Why is Gerhart even being mentioned? If you knock McCoy for Texas's perceived weak schedule (SOS 30), Stanford (SOS 64) shouldn't even be in the discussion. Hell, let's talk about Keenum (SOS 91) whose numbers (420 yards per game on 71% completion on a 10-2 team) trump both of these guys.

My vote would go Ingram or McCoy - right now Ingram because I think McCoy has had more unspectacular games

pfrduke
12-08-2009, 04:24 PM
Why is Gerhart even being mentioned? If you knock McCoy for Texas's perceived weak schedule (SOS 30), Stanford (SOS 64) shouldn't even be in the discussion. Hell, let's talk about Keenum (SOS 91) whose numbers (420 yards per game on 71% completion on a 10-2 team) trump both of these guys.

My vote would go Ingram or McCoy - right now Ingram because I think McCoy has had more unspectacular games

Because Gerhart was the nation's leading rusher and leading touchdown guy, and because he did this in Stanford's biggest games this year:

Oregon: 38 carries, 223 yards, 3TDs
USC: 29, 178, 3
Cal: 20, 136, 4 (plus 29 rec. yards)
Notre Dame: 29, 205, 3 (plus 33 rec. yards)
Arizona: 28, 123, 2 (plus 18 rec. yards)

He also had a TD pass in one of those games (I think ND).

He struggled in just 2 games - at Oregon State (still put up 2 TDs, though), and at Wake.

If your criteria is "more unspectacular games," both McCoy and Ingram had more than Gerhart.

Mal
12-08-2009, 04:26 PM
Tebow ... hasn't even been among the 5 best players in college ball this season... not even close.

This can't possibly be true; how can he be The Greatest College Player Ever And Probably The Most Perfect Human Being to Walk The Earth Since You Know Who, yet not be among the 5 best players in college ball this season? ESPN wouldn't steer me wrong, right?

Kidding aside, I don't follow college football at all close enough to have an informed opinion, so I'll say I'm all in favor of a defensive lineman winning, and secondarily in favor of a guy from Stanford winning. "Toby Gerhardt" sounds like someone from U of C who would have won the Heisman had it existed in the late 1910's, then gone on to be a nuclear physicist involved with early reactor tests.

hc5duke
12-08-2009, 04:33 PM
If your criteria is "more unspectacular games," both McCoy and Ingram had more than Gerhart.

No, that was sort of a tie-breaker between the two for me.


Because Gerhart was the nation's leading rusher and leading touchdown guy, and because he did this in Stanford's biggest games this year:


Again, Keenum should get it over Gerhart if that is the criteria.

A-Tex Devil
12-08-2009, 04:34 PM
- If McCoy wins it, it is a little bit of career achievement, but he's still the most accurate passer in college ball. As a UT fan, I don't think he deserves it this year, but he definitely deserved it last year over Bradford and his 7 future NFL skill position players and 4 NFL OL around him. McCoy had maybe 3. I'm still steamed about last year.

- If Gerhart wins it, I am pissed if I am a Spiller fan. Spiller had a better season in every objective measure but yards. I think Gerhart has a real possibility because the midwest and southeast votes are split.

- Tebow - enough said. His best statistical year at Florida was Florida's worst of his 4 years. Hmmmm.......

- If Ingram wins it and everyone says "look what he did against Florida!!" I say, "Look what he did against Auburn!!" If McCoy gets slammed for Saturday, Ingram should for the Auburn game. He was bad before he got his "hip pointer". Frankly, I hope Ingram wins it based on past Heisman performances in championship games (other than Matt Leinart).

- Suh. Suh played his best game Saturday, but if you haven't been watching, he's been a monster all year. The Mizzou game was a prime example. As Matt Hinton of Dr. Saturday has pointed out -- he's the human version of an exploded bomb at the line of scrimmage. The guy esentially plays middle linebacker at the tackle position. He leads the Nebraska defense in tackles. That is absurd against a league that plays mostly spread offenses.

So my vote:

1. Suh
2. McCoy
3. Spiller
4. Gerhart
5. Ingram
6. Earl Thomas (look for him next year. Kid may be a better all around safety than Eric Berry -- you just haven't heard about him yet.)

If I was to vote on all around good guy with better character than every other player out there because the media told me he has better character than every other player out there. Well, then I'd vote for Tim Tebow. :cool:

pfrduke
12-08-2009, 05:01 PM
- If Gerhart wins it, I am pissed if I am a Spiller fan. Spiller had a better season in every objective measure but yards. I think Gerhart has a real possibility because the midwest and southeast votes are split.

And touchdowns (by a lot - 27 all told for Gerhart, 21 for Spiller).

And the yardage difference was not small. Spiller played in 13 games and picked up 1145 yards on the ground. Gerhart played in 12 and gained 1736 yards. Even if you factor in receiving yards, Gerhart's +300 in one fewer game.

The yard/carry numbers are almost identical - 5.7 Spiller, 5.6 Gerhart.

Spiller gets a bump for his return game. And he played a ridiculous championship game against Georgia Tech. But through 12 games, he had 1330 rushing/receiving yards and 16 TDs - 500 yards and 10TDs below Gerhart.

Spiller may have been better by subjective measures - I can't really say, since I don't think I saw a single Clemson game this year. But by objective measures, it's Gerhart in a landslide.

pfrduke
12-08-2009, 05:06 PM
Again, Keenum should get it over Gerhart if that is the criteria.

I would agree that Keenum is among the top 5 players in football this season. He had a ridiculous statistical year.

I'm just curious as to why you don't believe Gerhart should even be mentioned. He had a great season - by statistical measures, the best of any running back. He was also huge in Stanford's biggest games this season - every other finalist (except Suh, who was ridiculous all year long) has had big games in which they were unimpressive.

BlueintheFace
12-08-2009, 05:13 PM
McCoy wasn't even the most deserving candidate on his team (helllllooooo Mr. Shipley), but he might have it coming to him for career accomplishment.

I say Suh for the win as well. Look at the numbers of the rest of the DT's in the nation and then look at Suh. We all saw his impact on a game against UT, and I assure you he has been doing it all year long.

I say Ingram over the other RBs a MILLION times over again. Just look at the competition. Seriously, the SEC was just amazing this year top to bottom. Vandy was the ONLY easy game and those defenses.... oh man.

I guess if I had to rank on this season alone, I'd say:

Suh
Ingram
Shipley

If I had to do it the way the Heisman voters do it:

McCoy
Suh
Ingram

roywhite
12-08-2009, 05:27 PM
It's been a year where there have some good offensive performances, but nothing that reaches truly outstanding, slam-dunk, separate from the field type year.

Give it to Suh. He's truly outstanding, truly dominating at what he does, and why not have a defensive player win it occasionally?

NashvilleDevil
12-08-2009, 05:32 PM
At stiffarmtrophy.com they have updated the ballots. It is Ingram, Gerhardt and Suh with McCoy and Tebow a distant 4th and 5th. Of the ballots that they have seen Suh has the most 1st place votes by a good margin but he is not getting many 2nd or 3rds. Tebow had more 1st place votes last year as well.

blazindw
12-08-2009, 05:43 PM
I had heard about Suh, as I follow Texas since my brother went there. But I hadn't heard much about him. Again, people talk about unspectacular games against OU and Neb, but he also had a heckuva game against A&M, another big rivalry and statement game. He also torched Mizzou and OK State, teams that were ranked and considered contenders to beat Texas when they played. I pay great attention to national and local football news, and in my opinion, while Suh was great, he wasn't anything special until Nebraska was on the national stage. McCoy has done it all year, Spiller has done it all year. Ingram, in my opinion, while he torched Florida, disappeared against Auburn and another game that I can't recollect right now. McCoy for Heisman. Tebow should be in the peanut gallery with a Heisman ballot, not sitting with 4 other finalists.

And A-Tex, agree with you about Earl Thomas. I walk around with a #12 Texas jersey on, I actually say it's an Earl Thomas jersey (he's in my brother's frat). He will crack skulls next year.

ChicagoCrazy84
12-08-2009, 05:50 PM
Im not a huge fan of the Heisman because it is so political. I would go with Toby Gerhart as he has almost carried Stanford. Some of the games he has had this year, just ridiculous. Plus, this was a team that just last year was in obscurity. It's seriously a toss up between him and Ingram though so Ingram would probably ge the nod because of Alabama's trip to the NC game. McCoy will probably win it though. He has ridiculous numbers, besides the Big 12 championship game. McCoy will win it, but I think Gerhart deserves it more.

For the record, Tebow is a joke. He should not even be mentioned in the same breath as McCoy and even Clausen.

NashvilleDevil
12-08-2009, 05:52 PM
I pay great attention to national and local football news, and in my opinion, while Suh was great, he wasn't anything special until Nebraska was on the national stage.

Nebraska was on national TV 4 times this year, Mizzou, Oklahoma, Colorado and Texas. They were regional for Va. Tech. Each of those games he dominated and made a number of plays a DT should not be making.

I am sorry if you follow that closely you would know that Suh is an extremely special player and not just when he was on TV for the whole country to see.

A-Tex Devil
12-08-2009, 05:55 PM
I've watched 3 Alabama games this year, and in 2 of them Ingram wasn't even the best player on his offense. I can't speak to the rest. He seems to me like a product of a dominant O-Line more than anything else (meaning you could put about a dozen running backs back there and they'd do what he did). Although, that game where he got >200 yards with a lot out of the wildcat was very impressive.

I like Gerhart, but if I am looking at yards per touch, Spiller is where I go. He didn't get the ball nearly as often as Gerhart.

If any of the finalists win besides Tebow, I'm fine with it. I would actually like to see Colt NOT get it the more I think about it. I really think there are better candidates this year.

I'd also love to see a defense for the handful of first place votes Tebow is bound to get.

Edited to add: The joke on UT message boards is that Colt might have PTSD when he sits next to Suh at the awards ceremony Saturday....

And for those that only know Suh from the Big XII championship -- he's been killing it all year and might be the best DT prospect since Warren Sapp, if not better.

YourLandlord
12-08-2009, 06:02 PM
I disagree. I think McCoy's had a great season. And, no disrespect to Suh, but no one outside of Big 12 circles had really talked about him until the Big 12 title game. I don't think that he was the best player in college football this year, and I don't think giving it to McCoy would be a "career achievement". I think Spiller should have been a finalist. He has dominated this year and at times singlehandedly carried Clemson on his back to victory (like during the Miami game). If I had a vote, it would go McCoy 1st, Spiller 2nd, Gerhart 3rd.

There is zero chance Colt McCoy wins the Heisman Trophy. Just letting you know that.

Channing
12-08-2009, 06:17 PM
I had heard about Suh, as I follow Texas since my brother went there. But I hadn't heard much about him. Again, people talk about unspectacular games against OU and Neb, but he also had a heckuva game against A&M, another big rivalry and statement game. He also torched Mizzou and OK State, teams that were ranked and considered contenders to beat Texas when they played. I pay great attention to national and local football news, and in my opinion, while Suh was great, he wasn't anything special until Nebraska was on the national stage. McCoy has done it all year, Spiller has done it all year. Ingram, in my opinion, while he torched Florida, disappeared against Auburn and another game that I can't recollect right now. McCoy for Heisman. Tebow should be in the peanut gallery with a Heisman ballot, not sitting with 4 other finalists.

And A-Tex, agree with you about Earl Thomas. I walk around with a #12 Texas jersey on, I actually say it's an Earl Thomas jersey (he's in my brother's frat). He will crack skulls next year.

This just reads like burnt orange tinted glasses. If you really followed the big XII, and I am sure you do, you know that Suh has absolutely dominated just about every week this year. Remember how good Glen Dorsey was? Suh makes Dorsey look average at best. McCoy played against inferior competition this year, and while he had some great games, he laid eggs in his two big ones. If you are pointing to Texas A and M, Mizzou, and Oklahoma State this year as solid competition, especially for a national championship team, it was just a weak year. The one game he really had a chance to shine he nearly blew the game on one of the most boneheaded plays of the season.

Sorry, I just don't see McCoy as the top player this year. Last year ... a whole different story.

And as for the SEC being stacked this year .... uhhhh, did you watch any SEC games? This was one of the SEC's weakest years in recent memory. There were a lot of decent teams, but besides UF and Bama, no other really good teams. In any other year, I think this UF team loses at least 2 games.

Mal
12-08-2009, 06:22 PM
I like Gerhart, but if I am looking at yards per touch, Spiller is where I go. He didn't get the ball nearly as often as Gerhart.


Didn't someone right upthread note that Gerhart's only .1 yard per carry less (per touch can't be the right measure, or you'd better be advocating for the nation's best WR to win the Heisman)? Also, not getting the ball nearly as often as another player speaks to having less value than that other player, no? Somehow, you're not as critical a player to your team in my mind if you get the ball only 2/3 as much as a guy at the same position on another team.

jimsumner
12-08-2009, 06:25 PM
I've always felt that the Heisman was the most useless major award in American sports. It goes to the quarterback or running back on a top-20 team that's on TV a lot who plays the best in November.

Suh winning would go a long way towards changing my mind. But I'm not holding me breath.

YourLandlord
12-08-2009, 06:27 PM
I've always felt that the Heisman was the most useless major award in American sports. It goes to the quarterback or running back on a top-20 team that's on TV a lot who plays the best in November.

Suh winning would go a long way towards changing my mind. But I'm not holding me breath.

Most years, that's probably one of the top players in the nation. Unless you have some quantitative way of determining "best" or "value" or "outstanding"...

I don't recall there being frequent controversy as to the winner.

juise
12-08-2009, 06:38 PM
Didn't someone right upthread note that Gerhart's only .1 yard per carry less (per touch can't be the right measure, or you'd better be advocating for the nation's best WR to win the Heisman)?

I had the same question (I think the post upthread was rushing average only), so I looked it up. Here are the averages:

Spiller - 5.7 rushing, 13.5 receiving
Gerhart - 5.6 rushing, 14.9 receiving

The only other "per touch" factor I could think of is factoring in kick returns. At first, I thought this might be a somewhat trivial factor, until I saw that he has 1 punt return TD and 4 kickoff return TD's. I didn't check to see who those came against or how important they were, but those 5 TD's seem significant. Having said that, Gerhart still has way more scores. Both players have a single passing TD.

A-Tex Devil
12-08-2009, 06:41 PM
Somehow, you're not as critical a player to your team in my mind if you get the ball only 2/3 as much as a guy at the same position on another team.

You are right on rushing. They are close. My bad. I disagree with this statement, though. Just because a guy gets 30 plus carries/game, allowing him to get his yards, or just because his team has ZERO other threats, doesn't make one guy a better player. I am fine if Gerhart wins it. I am. He has played well enough to deserve it. I just don't get the love for him over Spiller when you consider everything that Spiller has done receiving and on special teams (especially on special teams).

Gerhart will be going up against the best defense he's faced all year in the Sun Bowl. Potentially without Andrew Luck at QB. I will be interested to see how that goes for him.

A-Tex Devil
12-08-2009, 06:49 PM
Most years, that's probably one of the top players in the nation. Unless you have some quantitative way of determining "best" or "value" or "outstanding"...

I don't recall there being frequent controversy as to the winner.

What's funny is that the one time a defensive player did win it, it was VERY controversial. Woodson had a great season, but won the Heisman at the Ohio St. game if I recall. Volunteer fans are still up in arms over that one.

Some other controversial picks -- Jason White, Chris Weinke, Reggie Bush (thanks almost solely to Fresno St.'s atrocious defense on a Thursday night in the San Joaquin Valley and VY's one mediocre game of the year against A&M coming with 3 weeks of the vote).

Although some have been made to look bad in hindsight even though they were probably right when awarded (Bradford (begrudgingly), Troy Smith)

texas
12-08-2009, 07:12 PM
i watched every texas game this year and only caught a few nebraska games but i think it should go to Suh. he is just an amazing player and had a superb season. agree with many comments above about colt not having that heisman-like year and if he won it would be the career award for being the winningest QB in college football history.

G man
12-08-2009, 08:56 PM
Why is Gerhart even being mentioned? If you knock McCoy for Texas's perceived weak schedule (SOS 30), Stanford (SOS 64) shouldn't even be in the discussion. Hell, let's talk about Keenum (SOS 91) whose numbers (420 yards per game on 71% completion on a 10-2 team) trump both of these guys.

My vote would go Ingram or McCoy - right now Ingram because I think McCoy has had more unspectacular games

McCoy has not been very good in big games this year. Suh has been the best player in every game he has played in. I think none of the QB's should win they have not been great at all this year. They get love because they win a lot of games for big programs. The award is for best overall player in football. You think any of the Heisman finalists are going to get drafted in from of Suh? They won’t he is the best football player in college. I would be ok with a running back because they flat out were better this year than the QB's.

sagegrouse
12-08-2009, 09:21 PM
Here's my make on the Heisman (and lucky for all, I don't have a vote):

1. I never heard of Suh, although I did watch some of the Nebraska-Texas game

2. Gerhard was a stud against USC and ND and fully qualified

3. Ingraham is amazingly powerful plus explosive

4. Colt McCoy is the name of a character on an ABC Western in the 1960s. He seems to be very mobile and with a good arm, but I thought he had thrown the Nebraska game on purpose with his play at the end (I do watch some college FB)

5. If I hear one more thing about Tebow, I am going to throw up

I'd give the Heisman to Ingraham.

sagegrouse
'With apologies for such a lame post. My excuse: this is primarily a college hoops and Duke athletics site'

A-Tex Devil
12-08-2009, 09:25 PM
Great blog post on past Heisman "hose jobs". Funny how many came from Notre Dame.

Heisman Hose Jobs (http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/2009/12/08/a-heisman-history-of-hose-jobs-hijinks/)

I forget about the Marshall Faulk/Gino Toretta year. That was awful.

blazindw
12-08-2009, 09:27 PM
This just reads like burnt orange tinted glasses. If you really followed the big XII, and I am sure you do, you know that Suh has absolutely dominated just about every week this year. Remember how good Glen Dorsey was? Suh makes Dorsey look average at best. McCoy played against inferior competition this year, and while he had some great games, he laid eggs in his two big ones. If you are pointing to Texas A and M, Mizzou, and Oklahoma State this year as solid competition, especially for a national championship team, it was just a weak year. The one game he really had a chance to shine he nearly blew the game on one of the most boneheaded plays of the season.

Sorry, I just don't see McCoy as the top player this year. Last year ... a whole different story.

And as for the SEC being stacked this year .... uhhhh, did you watch any SEC games? This was one of the SEC's weakest years in recent memory. There were a lot of decent teams, but besides UF and Bama, no other really good teams. In any other year, I think this UF team loses at least 2 games.

I never said that I never saw Suh, or that I thought he wasn't good. I just don't think he's the most outstanding player in the nation this year...just my opinion. I also don't doubt he will probably be one of the first 2 players taken in the NFL Draft in April and that he will go on to have a great career in the pros. I saw most Big 12 games this year, including the majority of Nebraska's, and while I'll admit I'm a bit biased towards Texas, that doesn't influence my pick.

However, one thing that caters to both Ingram and Suh is that I believe most of the voters didn't vote until after this weekend's games, which has not happened in most years (ie. Leinart, Bush, Bradford). That helps them out greatly, as people who waited to vote will use their excellent play in their respective conference title games to factor into their decision. I still, after seeing every one of these teams play, still believe that McCoy should win the Heisman, and that Spiller and Gerhart would have been 2-3 on my ballot. But, I think we can all agree that Tebow has no business being in that final group, regardless of who wins.

A-Tex Devil
12-08-2009, 09:34 PM
McCoy has not been very good in big games this year. Suh has been the best player in every game he has played in. I think none of the QB's should win they have not been great at all this year. They get love because they win a lot of games for big programs. The award is for best overall player in football. You think any of the Heisman finalists are going to get drafted in from of Suh? They won’t he is the best football player in college. I would be ok with a running back because they flat out were better this year than the QB's.

I'll defend McCoy a bit, even though I'd vote him behind Suh. He had a 4 game stretch as good as any player in the nation at any position, with 3 of those 4 wins coming against bowl teams. I think he played poorly enough in the OU and NU games to cost him the Heisman. But had he played well on Saturday, I think he would have rightly deserved it. And honestly, him not playing well in the OU and NU games has as much to do with a ridiculously horrible gameplan from his OC and the offensive line bringing their lady parts to the those games as it did with Colt's poor play.

Regardless of how "bad" A&M's defense is, Colt did something only 2 other players in HISTORY have done on Thanksgiving night in running for 150 and throwing for 300 in a single game. Other than Suh's Big XII championship, that was the best single game performance of the season.

jimsumner
12-08-2009, 10:22 PM
"Most years, that's probably one of the top players in the nation."

Right. Because the top players in the country are never offensive linemen. Or defensive linemen. Or linebackers. Or never play for 6-6 teams.

Remember when Mario Williams from NC State was the first pick in the NFL draft, over Reggie Bush? Bush was a household name, nobody outside the ACC or hard-core draftniks had ever heard of Williams. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Yet, there's little doubt that Williams was a better football player.

How many Heisman votes did Williams get? There are Williams analogs every year and they get no Heisman support whatsover. Why didn't Dick Butkus win the Heisman? Or Lawrence Taylor? Or Fred Biletnikoff? Or Dave Remington?

Want to know who the top players in the nation are in any given year? Ask NFL scouts. The Heisman in a beauty contest for glamour players at glamour positions for glamour programs.

Beezer7
12-08-2009, 10:30 PM
If it's 4th and short and the end of the game and either Gerhardt or Ingram meets Suh at the line...who are you betting on to win that battle?

For those that don't think he was spectacular all year, swallow his stats for 2009:

82 tackles, 23 tackles for loss, 12 sacks, INT, 3 blocked kicks, 1 forced fumble, 10 pass breakups, 24 QB hurries

A RB would have to rush for well over 2k yards to mirror that sort of production from a DT!

NashvilleDevil
12-08-2009, 11:13 PM
I know it was last year's Gator Bowl but Suh was a main reason that Nebraska held CJ Spiller to 17 yards rushing. Since Pelini took over the guy has gone from talented player to once in a generation player. So glad that the Blackshirts are back. Now if they could find a way to score 21 points another Big Red Dynasty could be on the horizon.

YourLandlord
12-09-2009, 12:03 AM
The Heisman in a beauty contest for glamour players at glamour positions for glamour programs.

Does this offend you?

So is the NFL MVP. And most other MVPs in sports.

Who cares? It is what it is.

ricks68
12-09-2009, 01:42 AM
From a UT football admirer: Suh is the man.

Jim Sumner more than usually knows of what he speaks. I saw that incredible game by Colt, as well as many others. But for a lineman to do what Suh has done this year is the sign of true greatness. Many of us UT fans in Houston think that he will be the best on the board when the NFL draft begins.

ricks

Mike Corey
12-09-2009, 01:49 AM
Does this offend you?

So is the NFL MVP. And most other MVPs in sports.

Who cares? It is what it is.

What it is is precisely what Jim and others are deriding: an award that does not go to the most valuable player, but to the most glorified.

The lack of controversy in years past is largely because the purveyors of the storylines that lead to the election of a winner are the ones that are, for the most part, doing the selecting. And those crafters are also responsible for crafting the public's view. The internet age, and having access to clips and information on more subtle talents--Gerhart among them (indeed, his biggest Heisman flaw is that he was discovered too late)--will hopefully change this in time from what it is to what it ought to be.

So who cares? Lots of people.

brevity
12-09-2009, 07:22 AM
"Most years, that's probably one of the top players in the nation."

Right. Because the top players in the country are never offensive linemen. Or defensive linemen. Or linebackers. Or never play for 6-6 teams.

Remember when Mario Williams from NC State was the first pick in the NFL draft, over Reggie Bush? Bush was a household name, nobody outside the ACC or hard-core draftniks had ever heard of Williams. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Yet, there's little doubt that Williams was a better football player.

How many Heisman votes did Williams get? There are Williams analogs every year and they get no Heisman support whatsover. Why didn't Dick Butkus win the Heisman? Or Lawrence Taylor? Or Fred Biletnikoff? Or Dave Remington?

Want to know who the top players in the nation are in any given year? Ask NFL scouts. The Heisman in a beauty contest for glamour players at glamour positions for glamour programs.

Thank you.

This bit of disgruntlement is actually quite pertinent to this thread. There seems to be a disconnect between people who earnestly are trying to evaluate Suh's unique ability as a game-changer and people who just know their Heisman history.

The Heisman Trophy is kind of like the Golden Globes of college football: both are mostly PR creations that instill a false sense of collective recognition even though the voting bodies are comparatively small. It's a pity that the same amount of media attention isn't given to the position awards, which are probably a better measure of player talent and performance.

JasonEvans
12-09-2009, 07:32 AM
Here is a decent article (http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/10492824/Final-day-of-season-likely-decided-Heisman-race) breaking down the Heisman race. Says Ingram will win.

-Jason

elvis14
12-09-2009, 09:12 AM
Everything I'm hearing makes me believe Ingram will win it. I think it's a shame Spiller wasn't invited to NY, he really had an amazing year and capped it with a performance to remember in the ACC championship game. Tebow lost his chance vs. Alabama, McCoy could win but I agree with others that if he does it'll be more career based. I know next to nothing about Suh. That's a shame, he sounds like he's a fantastic player worth watching.



Gerhart carried the ball over 100 more times than Spiller, scored twice as many touchdowns, and had the same yds/rush average. Spiller was more of a weapon in the passing and return game, but his rushing numbers were not, on the whole spectacular (failing to break 100 yards on multiple occasions).

Clemson isn't a grind it out on the ground kind of team. They used Spiller in many ways because it fit their offense. So I'm OK with him having rushing numbers that weren't fantastic.


This can't possibly be true; how can he be The Greatest College Player Ever And Probably The Most Perfect Human Being to Walk The Earth Since You Know Who, yet not be among the 5 best players in college ball this season? ESPN wouldn't steer me wrong, right?


I didn't know Tiger Woods was even in the running :D



Spiller may have been better by subjective measures - I can't really say, since I don't think I saw a single Clemson game this year. But by objective measures, it's Gerhart in a landslide.

There are objective things that don't show up in the stats. For example, teams stopped kicking to Spiller. As a result, Clemson's average starting position on offense was fantastic. Teams were giving up massive amounts of field position to keep from giving Spiller the chance to run back a kick. Those yards don't show up in Spiller's stats but they were showing up on the score board. Oh and when he did run back kicks, he was fantastic. Clemson scored a lot of points and much of it was because Spiller was either making big plays or drawing attention from defenses allowing others to excel (and Jacoby Ford is really good too).

Note, I'm not saying Spiller should win, he lost the Heisman when he had poor games late in the season, in particular vs. South Carolina. I would have liked to see him in NY, however, because I think he was good enough to be top 5.

Looking forward to seeing who does win. The 5 that did get invited had great seasons. It would be really cool to see Suh win (interior lineman winning the Heisman without all the hype).

BD80
12-09-2009, 09:48 AM
I think Suh should win, but don't think he will win. He is clearly the best player in college football. I also think he will be by far the best pro football player in this year's class. I am watching the NFL draft race to see if my Lions will get the chance to draft Suh. Tampa is the big competition as they would certainly draft Suh (the next Warren Sapp?) and they already have their franchise quaterback. The Browns and Rams already have high-priced defensive lineman and may pass on Suh.

Ingram will probably win handily because of the east coast bias. Should be closer race than it will be.

Rumor has it that Tebow has been posing for the new Heisman statue which will be unveiled this year. Instead of the "stiff arm" pose with knee raised high, he will be standing straight, gazing heavenward, arms slightly outstretched in front, palms up. The sculptor is having trouble with the beatific expression. It won't be until Tebow washes out of the NFL (circa 2012) that they will change the name to "the Tebow."

sagegrouse
12-09-2009, 10:22 AM
Even problems in the Heisman Trophy race.

On this AM's Mike and Mike show, Mike Green was saying that one problem for Tim Tebow in the Heisman race is that people have heard too much about him.

Green: "He has been built up so much that people are tired of him. You know what I would compare it with? Duke basketball. What has Duke basketball done over the past few years, or ever since Krzyzewski has been there?"

Golic: "Win games and graduate players?"

Green: "And do things mostly the right way. Yet Duke has been talked about so much that people are really sick of Duke basketball."

I can take criticism, but comparison to Tim Tebow seems like a low blow to me.

sagegrouse

Reddevil
12-09-2009, 10:33 AM
First of all, the season started with the notion that it would go to Bradford, McCoy, or Tebow based on who had the best season. That is really why McCoy and Tebow are still in play in my mind.

Some define it as the most valuable player. In that case Ingram and Gerhart carried their teams much of the time. Clausen and Locker should also be in this conversation.

Some define it as the most dominant player. Suh is not only the most dominant, but there is a larger gap between him and the next best player at his position than the others.

Then there is the category of most outstanding player. All of the above fit along with others that fit the "most NFL ready" category which should not enter into the equation, but often does. These include of course Spiller, Joe Haden, and Eric Berry.

Regional politics often decide these things. Will the southern vote give enough to Tebow to hurt Ingram, and clear the way for Suh or Gerhart? This is a fun year to watch because the candidates are spread out across the nation. I would like to see Suh get it because he deserves it as much as McCoy, Ingram, and Gerhart, and it is an opportunity to reward a guy in the trenches who really is special. In many years, the other guys performances would not be looked upon as great. Suh's season has been the lone great performance in my mind.

Duke of Nashville
12-09-2009, 10:34 AM
Except for that fact that anyone who thinks rationally would see an outstanding citizen, christian leader, and a role model of success at the collegiate level.

Tim Tebow is hated because he wins 95% of his football games, and does not make excuses for the other 5% he does not win. So what if he cries like a little baby and shows passion for a game that he loves.

Of course people hate Duke Basketball and are tired of hearing about Duke Basketball, this is old news to me. We are good and beat alot of teams with large fans bases, but with these beatdowns comes respect.

Wether it be Duke Basketball or Tim Tebow or whomever, carrying yourself and your team with honor and integrity on and off the field goes a long way in my eyes and I do not see how having our basketball team compared to that would be a bad thing.

JasonEvans
12-09-2009, 11:12 AM
On ESPN radio's The Heard a few moments ago, Eric Cassilias said the only way Ingram finishes ahead of Gerhart is if there is rampant East Coast Bias. He went on to tick off some of Gerhart's crazy numbers against good teams this year. He said, "Pete Carroll wakes up in a cold sweat thinking about what this kid did to his D."

He said if anyone but Gerhart or Sud wins the Heisman, it will be an outrage.

--Jason "should be an interesting award show-- no one seems to know who is going to win" Evans

A-Tex Devil
12-09-2009, 11:29 AM
Except for that fact that anyone who thinks rationally would see an outstanding citizen, christian leader, and a role model of success at the collegiate level.

Tim Tebow is hated because he wins 95% of his football games, and does not make excuses for the other 5% he does not win. So what if he cries like a little baby and shows passion for a game that he loves.

Of course people hate Duke Basketball and are tired of hearing about Duke Basketball, this is old news to me. We are good and beat alot of teams with large fans bases, but with these beatdowns comes respect.

Wether it be Duke Basketball or Tim Tebow or whomever, carrying yourself and your team with honor and integrity on and off the field goes a long way in my eyes and I do not see how having our basketball team compared to that would be a bad thing.

I agree with some of this and disagree with some. Tebow is obviously a good kid and as good of a sports role model as one could ask for based on what we know of him. (Last phrase is key after the Tiger debacle).

I think more people are frustrated with the media's attempts to beatify him, and, frankly, he's not any better of a person than hundreds of other scholar athletes. And there's the difference. Also, there are things Tebow does and says that makes me think he's playing into the hype, (e.g. the "Promise"), but I'll give that a pass since he is a kid and all. It's the media that people are so frustrated with.

Was it Verne Lundquist or Gary Danielsen that said "You will be a better person just by talking to Tim Tebow." Please.

And frankly as a player, the "best of all time" talk was ridiculous. Most decorated? Maybe - considering the media gives the prizes. But best of all time? I'll tick off 10 offensive skill players of the last 20 years that I think were better than Tim Tebow in an instant if someone wants me to. I'll throw out Tommy Frazier as the obvious parallel to start.

Channing
12-09-2009, 12:05 PM
I agree with some of this and disagree with some. Tebow is obviously a good kid and as good of a sports role model as one could ask for based on what we know of him. (Last phrase is key after the Tiger debacle).

I think more people are frustrated with the media's attempts to beatify him, and, frankly, he's not any better of a person than hundreds of other scholar athletes. And there's the difference. Also, there are things Tebow does and says that makes me think he's playing into the hype, (e.g. the "Promise"), but I'll give that a pass since he is a kid and all. It's the media that people are so frustrated with.

Was it Verne Lundquist or Gary Danielsen that said "You will be a better person just by talking to Tim Tebow." Please.

And frankly as a player, the "best of all time" talk was ridiculous. Most decorated? Maybe - considering the media gives the prizes. But best of all time? I'll tick off 10 offensive skill players of the last 20 years that I think were better than Tim Tebow in an instant if someone wants me to. I'll throw out Tommy Frazier as the obvious parallel to start.


As a UGA fan, I can't stand Tebow ... because he is good. Remember JJ? He was hated beyond belief also, because of the media. Its not his fault he is so good at what he does the media latches on to him.

Had Tebow had another Heisman year and won another NC (not unforseeable at the beginning of the year), he would arguably be the greatest college football player of all time. Frazier was great, but injuries got him Herschel was also fantastic, but didnt have the full tenure.

Otto Graham, Jim Brown et al would all be part of the conversation, but you couldnt have had the conversation without Tebow.

Duke4Ever32
12-09-2009, 12:15 PM
As a UGA fan, I can't stand Tebow ... because he is good. Remember JJ? He was hated beyond belief also, because of the media. Its not his fault he is so good at what he does the media latches on to him.

Had Tebow had another Heisman year and won another NC (not unforseeable at the beginning of the year), he would arguably be the greatest college football player of all time. Frazier was great, but injuries got him Herschel was also fantastic, but didnt have the full tenure.

Otto Graham, Jim Brown et al would all be part of the conversation, but you couldnt have had the conversation without Tebow.

This is spot on. I maintain that most of the Tebow-hate out there has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything Tebow himself has done. It's largely hatred based on what the media and UF fans have done. Well, guess what, Tim Tebow doesn't control the media or the UF fans, and to hate him for their behavior is really lame and nonsensical.

NashvilleDevil
12-09-2009, 12:17 PM
Thank you for mentioning Tommie Frazier. I was a freshman at Nebraska in 1995 and what that Husker team did was simply stunning. My friends and I would usually be leaving the stadium by the middle of the 3rd quarter because the Huskers had a 5 TD lead. I think why Frazier is somewhat forgotten is how dominate that '95 team was. I am biased but I think he is the best college QB of the last 25 years. Career record of 33-3, won 2 national titles and Husker fans will argue until they are blue in the face that they were robbed of the title in 1993. Plus he has one of the signature moments in college football history with his 75 yard TD run through the entire Florida team in the championship game.

sagegrouse
12-09-2009, 12:19 PM
This is spot on. I maintain that most of the Tebow-hate out there has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything Tebow himself has done. It's largely hatred based on what the media and UF fans have done. Well, guess what, Tim Tebow doesn't control the media or the UF fans, and to hate him for their behavior is really lame and nonsensical.

True. I have leveled some hate on Tebow in this thread, but it is totally in fun. Seems like a really good kid.

sagegrouse

A-Tex Devil
12-09-2009, 12:29 PM
As a UGA fan, I can't stand Tebow ... because he is good. Remember JJ? He was hated beyond belief also, because of the media. Its not his fault he is so good at what he does the media latches on to him.

Had Tebow had another Heisman year and won another NC (not unforseeable at the beginning of the year), he would arguably be the greatest college football player of all time. Frazier was great, but injuries got him Herschel was also fantastic, but didnt have the full tenure.

Otto Graham, Jim Brown et al would all be part of the conversation, but you couldnt have had the conversation without Tebow.

Why would Tim Tebow be any different than the QB of the 70s Nebraska teams or the 50s OU teams that won so many championships in a short time frame? No one says they are the "greatest ever." It's because he (hypothetically) would have twice won an award we are all agreeing generally goes to the highest profile (read: not necessarily best) player on a top 5 team? Again, I am fine with anointing Tebow "most decorated" if he'd gotten a title and a Heisman this year. He's earned that.

But Tommy Frazier was a better player than Tebow. As were VY, Ricky Williams, Matt Leinart, Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, Charlie Ward, Peyton Manning, Reggie Bush, and I'll say it..... Colt McCoy. This is just off the top of my head.... Michael Vick, Percy Harvin (gasp!), Adrian Peterson, Marshall Faulk, LaDanian Tomlinson, etc. etc.

"Decorated" doesn't mean "best" in a sport as team oriented as football. There is a reason Marshall Faulk or Michael Vick never won a championship. Just look at how Tebow struggled without Harvin and Murphy this year. Put him behind Mississippi St's offensive line (hell, put him behind Texas' offensive line) and we'll see how well that dive play that the Gators run so often works.

I'd take every one of those skill position players listed above before Tebow if I was drafting an all time college football team of the past 20 years.

Indoor66
12-09-2009, 12:45 PM
Best/Glamour: Huarte (Notre Dame) over Nameth (Alabama)?

NashvilleDevil
12-09-2009, 12:45 PM
Minor quibble and it's similar to Duke fans getting upset at the misspelling of Shelden's name. It's Tommie. Now let's carry on with the discussion of his greatness.

DukeBlueNikeShox
12-09-2009, 02:08 PM
Please explain to me:
If Tebow lost the trophy because of his game against Bama, why is Gerhart even being invited after losing to WAKE FOREST?! I'm not even going to mention losing his home rivalry game to Cal...losing to Arizona....losing to Oregon State...

As for Suh, his team lost to VPI and Texas, in addition to two home losses to UNRANKED Texas Tech and UNRANKED Iowa State! His team's highest ranking was #15, and had a stretch of six consecutive weeks of being unranked!

Why didn't Jimmy Clausen get an invite? If you want to invite Gerhart and Suh, then invite Clausen. He's more worthy than they are...

Wander
12-09-2009, 02:16 PM
Please explain to me:
If Tebow lost the trophy because of his game against Bama,

He didn't lose the trophy because of the Alabama game. He's not getting the trophy because he's had a good, but nowhere near Heisman worthy season.

They'll be another Mark Ingram next year, and the year after, and the year after that. But you'll probably go about a decade before you see another Suh.

juise
12-09-2009, 02:39 PM
Please explain to me:
If Tebow lost the trophy because of his game against Bama, why is Gerhart even being invited after losing to WAKE FOREST?! I'm not even going to mention losing his home rivalry game to Cal...losing to Arizona....losing to Oregon State...

As for Suh, his team lost to VPI and Texas, in addition to two home losses to UNRANKED Texas Tech and UNRANKED Iowa State! His team's highest ranking was #15, and had a stretch of six consecutive weeks of being unranked!

Why didn't Jimmy Clausen get an invite? If you want to invite Gerhart and Suh, then invite Clausen. He's more worthy than they are...

I have trouble with most of this post.

(1) I agree with Wander. Nobody is saying that Tebow has been a Heisman front-runner since September.
(2) Are you saying that Gerhart is responsible for Stanford's porous defense or that Suh is responsible for Nebraska's inept offense? That makes no sense to me.
(3) You're bemoaning Stanford's losses to teams that went 8-4 in a deep conference. Why?
(4) Rankings are fairly arbitrary. Why would an individual player's performance rest on how highly his team was ranked.
(5) Do you have any arguments to support Clausen's canidacy? Your other criteria (team performance, rankings) do not support this.

NashvilleDevil
12-09-2009, 03:04 PM
As for Suh, his team lost to VPI and Texas, in addition to two home losses to UNRANKED Texas Tech and UNRANKED Iowa State! His team's highest ranking was #15, and had a stretch of six consecutive weeks of being unranked!


Before the Texas game did you watch Suh? In the Va. Tech he held their QB in check the entire game. Tech got a miracle 80 yard play on a missed assignment by the safety and still needed 3 downs to score. Suh could not help that the offense was one of the worst in the country. In that game the Nebraska offense spent a great deal of time inside the red zone but only managed 5 field goals.

In the Texas Tech game a fumble return for a TD put the Huskers in a whole. In the 2nd half Tech managed 10 yards of offense until their final drive. Again the Husker offense did nothing to help the D.

The Iowa St game is all on the offense. They had 8 turnovers 5 or 6 of them happened inside the Iowa St. 10 yard line. Suh blocked two kicks that kept Nebraska's chances alive to beat freaking Iowa St.

All of Nebraska's losses are because the offense could not score a TD or get a first down when they needed. Suh has been doing this all year and he is a big reason that the Blackshirts were the #2 ranked defense this year.

sagegrouse
12-09-2009, 03:15 PM
(5) Do you have any arguments to support Clausen's canidacy? Your other criteria (team performance, rankings) do not support this.

Well, Clausen was good enough or bad enough to get his coach fired. Has the coach of any Heisman Trophy winner ever been fired the same year?

And the answer, the answer is YES! But only at Notre Dame! There's precedent!

Johnny Lattner won the Heisman in Frank Leahy's last year. Leahy "resigned" after the season. Although Leahy was 9-0-1 that year, he conceded later that ND did not want him back. He was a really, really tough guy, and Los Padres seemed to want to go in a more gentle direction. Welcome, Terry Brennan!

sagegrouse
'My Irish grandmother in heaven -- she certainly went to church enough -- always likes it when I hearken to the old days of Notre Dame football'

blueprofessor
12-09-2009, 04:19 PM
1. Gerhart
2. Tebow
3. Colt

If Florida had not dropped about 7 passes and 2 TDs vs. Bama, Tebow would have had over 450 yards in total offense and that ,plus a win, may have sealed the H for him.
Best regards---Blueprofessor:)

Duvall
12-09-2009, 04:23 PM
If Florida had not dropped about 7 passes and 2 TDs vs. Bama, Tebow would have had over 450 yards in total offense and that ,plus a win, may have sealed the H for him.

Sounds like Percy Harvin is the one that deserved a Heisman.

blueprofessor
12-09-2009, 04:37 PM
Sounds like Percy Harvin is the one that deserved a Heisman.

Harvin did not play vs. Bama in this or last year's SEC championship game won by Florida. The drops this year were by other players.
Best--Blueprofessor:)

Reddevil
12-09-2009, 04:39 PM
If Suh played for Texas, Alabama, or Florida I doubt there would be a discussion. Can the same be said for any of the other candidates? Maybe Gerhart? Of course the others do play for Texas, Alabama, and Florida, but that's my point. Being the best player on a top tier team often distorts the award. This is just another way to look at it.

brevity
12-13-2009, 01:52 AM
The winner (Mark Ingram, RB, Alabama) and breakdown:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4737524

In my opinion, these were the primary considerations for the award's voters:

1. We've never selected an Alabama player.
2. We're tired of quarterbacks.
3. We're only picking sophomores now, right?
4. Colt McCoy still looks like he's short.
5. They play football out West?
...
129. We really want to make Tim Tebow the Grover Cleveland of Heisman winners.

formerdukeathlete
12-13-2009, 09:39 AM
The winner (Mark Ingram, RB, Alabama) and breakdown:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4737524

In my opinion, these were the primary considerations for the award's voters:

1. We've never selected an Alabama player.
2. We're tired of quarterbacks.
3. We're only picking sophomores now, right?
4. Colt McCoy still looks like he's short.
5. They play football out West?
...
129. We really want to make Tim Tebow the Grover Cleveland of Heisman winners.

watching the awards show, I was taken by how well spoken all 5 candidates were. The winner, Mark Ingram, a Dean's list student at Alabama, from Michigan. The next running back, Toby Gerhart, taking 21 credit hours this fall, majoring in management sciences and engineering. Top student athlete Football players are out there who will be attracted to Duke with a via Football program, which we now have.

Devilsfan
12-13-2009, 10:48 AM
Committee wanted the most hype possible for the NC game, imo. The player that impressed me the most was Suh. He's a man playing a boys game (college football). And he's so poised, intelligent and well spoken. No ya' knows. He seemed more of a Duke type than some of our players that were given cameos on Cut's show. Just an opinion and minor point, we should screen and coach all of our guys off the field just as well as we coach them on the field before they represent.. and go on TV.. Don't want to look like carolina. Most are great though.

A-Tex Devil
12-13-2009, 12:35 PM
Ingram is a good kid. But his season is merely "very good." He's not the best RB in the SEC and he's like the 4th or 5th best player on his own team. He may be supplanted in the starting lineup next year by Richardson. This stat should have won Suh the Heisman on its own. But voters are dumb. Oh well.

Line #1
98 Tkl, 23.5 TFL, 9.5 Sk, 20 QBH, 5 PBU, 0 Int, 1 FF, 3 Blk

Line #2
112 Tkl, 33 TFL, 14 Sk, 48 QBH, 5 PBU, 0 Int, 1 FF, 0 Blk

Line #3
116 Tkl, 25.5 TFL, 15.5 Sk, 10 QBH, 7 PBU, 0 Int, 2 FF, 0 Blk

Line #4
82 Tkl, 23 TFL, 12 Sk, 24 QBH, 10 PBU, 1 Int, 1 FF, 3 Blk

Line #1 = Alabama.

Line #2 = Florida.

Line #3 = Texas.

Line #4 = Ndamukong Suh. By himself.

sagegrouse
12-14-2009, 09:12 AM
In reference to the DBR Front page, has Ingram said he is returning to Alabama for his junior year?

sagegrouse

A-Tex Devil
12-14-2009, 09:21 AM
In reference to the DBR Front page, has Ingram said he is returning to Alabama for his junior year?

sagegrouse

He's only a sophomore, so yep, he'll be in WW.

pfrduke
12-14-2009, 10:41 AM
He's only a sophomore, so yep, he'll be in WW.

I think he's a three-year sophomore who's actually on pace to graduate in the spring, so his return is not certain. This is entirely based on my recollection from comments made during the Heisman ceremony (which I was not paying close attention to), so I certainly could be wrong.

NashvilleDevil
12-14-2009, 10:48 AM
I think he's a three-year sophomore who's actually on pace to graduate in the spring, so his return is not certain. This is entirely based on my recollection from comments made during the Heisman ceremony (which I was not paying close attention to), so I certainly could be wrong.

He is a true sophomore. He was in the same recruiting class as their star receiver Julio Jones.

A-Tex Devil
12-14-2009, 12:10 PM
I think he's a three-year sophomore who's actually on pace to graduate in the spring, so his return is not certain. This is entirely based on my recollection from comments made during the Heisman ceremony (which I was not paying close attention to), so I certainly could be wrong.

NashvilleDevil is right. You may be thinking of Gerhart, who is a junior (I think), but on track to graduate. In fact, he is taking 21 hours at Stanford this semester while having a Heisman caliber season. Pretty Impressive.

dukeblue4ever
12-14-2009, 11:00 PM
Ingram is a good kid. But his season is merely "very good." He's not the best RB in the SEC and he's like the 4th or 5th best player on his own team. He may be supplanted in the starting lineup next year by Richardson. This stat should have won Suh the Heisman on its own. But voters are dumb. Oh well.

Line #1
98 Tkl, 23.5 TFL, 9.5 Sk, 20 QBH, 5 PBU, 0 Int, 1 FF, 3 Blk

Line #2
112 Tkl, 33 TFL, 14 Sk, 48 QBH, 5 PBU, 0 Int, 1 FF, 0 Blk

Line #3
116 Tkl, 25.5 TFL, 15.5 Sk, 10 QBH, 7 PBU, 0 Int, 2 FF, 0 Blk

Line #4
82 Tkl, 23 TFL, 12 Sk, 24 QBH, 10 PBU, 1 Int, 1 FF, 3 Blk

Line #1 = Alabama.

Line #2 = Florida.

Line #3 = Texas.

Line #4 = Ndamukong Suh. By himself.What are these stats for?

A-Tex Devil
12-14-2009, 11:14 PM
What are these stats for?

They are the total stats for Alabama, Florida and Texas' entire defensive lines, and the 4th is Suh by himself.

Channing
12-15-2009, 08:46 AM
somewhat on topic, has anyone heard any projections on Toby Gerhart at the next level? The little I saw him play this year, he was like a human bulldozer. Does he project as an RB or FB?

J_C_Steel
12-15-2009, 09:35 AM
Gerhart looks like a player, but there is definitely a "race" issue when it comes to white halfbacks in the NFL.

Look at Brian Leonard of the Bengals. That guy can run and catch, plus he has fantastic instincts and vision. Yet Cincy turned him into a situational fullback.

I hope Gerhart gets a chance. I wouldn't mind my Steelers taking him in the 4th or 5th round of the draft and using him as a backup halfback to Rashard Mendenhall.

MulletMan
12-15-2009, 10:37 AM
Gerhart looks like a player, but there is definitely a "race" issue when it comes to white halfbacks in the NFL.

Look at Brian Leonard of the Bengals. That guy can run and catch, plus he has fantastic instincts and vision. Yet Cincy turned him into a situational fullback.

I hope Gerhart gets a chance. I wouldn't mind my Steelers taking him in the 4th or 5th round of the draft and using him as a backup halfback to Rashard Mendenhall.

Part of me wants to delete this post, but instead, I think I'd like to point out that accusations of racism are very serious... even when hiding behind the anonymity that the internet provides.

Brian Leonard was given a chance to be a featured back in St. Louis, and was beaten out by some guy named Steven Jackson. Furthermore, Leonard wasn't even the star back on his collegiate team. He was a solid player for Rutgers and was the "starter" but in their spectacular year he was outshone on that team by a kid named Ray Rice. Leonard is a solid player, but to think that he is somehow buried on the depth chart because he's white is completely unfounded and somewhat shortsighted. Do you really think that a team like the Bengals would bury a run/catch threat with fantastic instincts because he was white? Do you think that Marvin Lewis and other NFL coaches don't like to keep good white players on the field? Really?

As for Gerhart, I think he projects in the top 10 RBs available this year. CBS has him going in the middle of the second round. There are some very dynamic guys available though, and I don't see Gerhart having the speed to be a dominant NFL running back. I could be wrong, but it seems like his bruising style might shorten his time in the NFL as the guys he'll be colliding with with be bigger and faster than in college. Could see him as a nice complement in a two back system like the Giants have with Jacobs and Ward/Bradshaw... clearly Gerhart would be the Jacobs.

But if he fails to live up to that kind of potential, I sincerely doubt that it will be because he's white. Ugh.

BD80
12-15-2009, 11:28 AM
Gerhart looks like a player, but there is definitely a "race" issue when it comes to white halfbacks in the NFL. ...

I hope Gerhart gets a chance. I wouldn't mind my Steelers taking him in the 4th or 5th round of the draft and using him as a backup halfback to Rashard Mendenhall.


Part of me wants to delete this post, but instead, I think I'd like to point out that accusations of racism are very serious... even when hiding behind the anonymity that the internet provides.
...

But if he fails to live up to that kind of potential, I sincerely doubt that it will be because he's white. Ugh.

There is a difference between discussing an issue of race and an accusation of racism. There are typically 15-20 1000 yard rushers in the NFL each year. I believe the last white player to rush for 1000 yards in the NFL was Craig James in 1985-6. If there were that sort of disparity in race at another position, say at quarterback, would it be a legitimate issue?

That said, I believe the "issue" arises well before the NFL, and particularly at the transition between high school and college. I believe Gerhart has openly discussed the number of big name schools that wanted him, but not as a featured back. The NFL is pretty close to colorblind (except for green); a coach's job is on the line each play, and he don't give a sh*t what color a player is, he wants the player that will do his job each and every play.

The Steelers crowd would love Gerhart, and hail him as the second coming of Rocky Bleier, best known as Franco Harris's running mate (they both rushed for 1000 yards in the same season) and a local celebrity/sportscaster.

J_C_Steel
12-15-2009, 11:29 AM
Part of me wants to delete this post, but instead, I think I'd like to point out that accusations of racism are very serious... even when hiding behind the anonymity that the internet provides.

Brian Leonard was given a chance to be a featured back in St. Louis, and was beaten out by some guy named Steven Jackson. Furthermore, Leonard wasn't even the star back on his collegiate team. He was a solid player for Rutgers and was the "starter" but in their spectacular year he was outshone on that team by a kid named Ray Rice. Leonard is a solid player, but to think that he is somehow buried on the depth chart because he's white is completely unfounded and somewhat shortsighted. Do you really think that a team like the Bengals would bury a run/catch threat with fantastic instincts because he was white? Do you think that Marvin Lewis and other NFL coaches don't like to keep good white players on the field? Really?

As for Gerhart, I think he projects in the top 10 RBs available this year. CBS has him going in the middle of the second round. There are some very dynamic guys available though, and I don't see Gerhart having the speed to be a dominant NFL running back. I could be wrong, but it seems like his bruising style might shorten his time in the NFL as the guys he'll be colliding with with be bigger and faster than in college. Could see him as a nice complement in a two back system like the Giants have with Jacobs and Ward/Bradshaw... clearly Gerhart would be the Jacobs.

But if he fails to live up to that kind of potential, I sincerely doubt that it will be because he's white. Ugh.

I humbly disagree. I'm not saying anything controversial. Mr. Gerhart's race has been discussed on numerous news and sports sites.

Further, you have misinterpreted my post. I did not accuse anyone of actual racism. I simply noted that race is an ISSUE with white halfbacks and tailbacks in the NFL. Over time, coaches and general managers of NFL teams have come to expect that feature backs will be black.

The last white running back in the NFL to gain 1,000 yards in a season is Craig James. He accomplished that feat TWENTY-FOUR YEARS AGO.

Sports columnist Jenni Carlson adroitly discussed Mr. Gerhart's race and the perception that he must deal with in today's NFL:

http://www.newsok.com/one-of-a-kind-toby-gerhart-succeeds-at-a-position-white-players-dont-play-at-as-much-anymore/article/3424161?custom_click=pod_lead_ou-sports

My point is that Toby Gerhart will not just have to prove that he is an NFL-caliber running back, but also that he will be scrutinized based on his race. And overcoming instutional expectations, which is precisely what he will have to do, is no small task. Just ask Joe Gilliam...

J_C_Steel
12-15-2009, 11:33 AM
There is a difference between discussing an issue of race and an accusation of racism.

Thank you for recognizing that I was not accusing anyone of racism. I appreciate that.


There are typically 15-20 1000 yard rushers in the NFL each year. I believe the last white player to rush for 1000 yards in the NFL was Craig James in 1985-6. If there were that sort of disparity in race at another position, say at quarterback, would it be a legitimate issue?

Bingo. It's an institutional expectation.


That said, I believe the "issue" arises well before the NFL, and particularly at the transition between high school and college. I believe Gerhart has openly discussed the number of big name schools that wanted him, but not as a featured back. The NFL is pretty close to colorblind (except for green); a coach's job is on the line each play, and he don't give a sh*t what color a player is, he wants the player that will do his job each and every play.

Kids are definitely funnelled to certain positions based on all sorts of stereotypes, of which race is one. And while the NFL is a more "free market" due to the intense competition and money involved, the coaches and general managers still have institutional biases.


The Steelers crowd would love Gerhart, and hail him as the second coming of Rocky Bleier, best known as Franco Harris's running mate (they both rushed for 1000 yards in the same season) and a local celebrity/sportscaster.

Ah, the 'ole two fullback system. Rocky and Franco. I've watched so many highlights of the beautiful trap play that they ran throughout the '70s.

Gerhart would be a solid complement to Mendenhall in 2010. That said, I believe the Steelers need to draft DEFENSE if they want to make a quick leap back into the NFL's elite.

Kfanarmy
12-15-2009, 12:04 PM
Ingram won for two reasons...1st the heisman has become the award given to the best statistical player on one of the top 10 teams in the country...rarely is that player close to the best in his graduating class as shown in NFL performance...if it going to be this way, they ought to just give it to the offensive line, and not a player.

2nd...ESPN and others began talking him up about halfway through the season, because he was one of the few standouts on Alabama's offense...I'm not sure he is the Most valuable, best, or anything else on Bama's offense, but Bama never had a Heisman winner, he's a RB, and they were on TV every week in a lot of markets. Statistically he was the least deserving of the five, but I told my wife when they announced the five names, he would win it because Bama was ranked #1 and they'd never had one...the award has become a joke, no one even knows what it stands for anymore as evidenced by the discussion. lastly, I am not sure the SEC defense were great this year as much as I'm certain most of the offenses were horrid, so am not sure whether any SEC offensive person is deserving.

Reddevil
12-15-2009, 06:59 PM
It used to be that if a sophomore won it, he'd have to be truly extraordinary, otherwise an upperclassman gets it. That didn't happen this year. The Heisman gets a downgrade in my book. It no longer means much. Maybe it hasn't in a while.