MBB: Duke 80, St. John's 71 Post-Game Thread

[Jumbo]

Post your thoughts here!

[DownEastDevil]

I'm really concerned with Miles confidence, did he play at all in the second half?

[sandinmyshoes]

It was a win. Does anyone else feel like some of the guys are just trying too hard? Not really in a selfish way, but as if they feel they have to carry the team in tough spots? It's good to have a lot of will to win, but sometimes you've got to have smarts to go along with it.

[gwwilburn]

This game was dominated by the veterans. Certainly Mason is a little rusty, but Miles, Ryan, and Andre didn't really do anything in the 2nd half.

[Hermy-own]

Decent game. I'm slightly worried by Duke's defensive breakdowns - I think that when we have those big guys down low, especially the Plumlees, the other team is much more scared of driving - or when they do drive, they often get bottled up. When we go small, they get by one guard, then an easy basket or an easy pass for a dunk after our inside defender slides over to guard the driver. I can see why coach K put the smaller lineup in though - we really needed a scoring spark. Let me just say that when we play small quick teams such as Villanova, our solution should NOT be to go small. Our solution should be to have our big guys swallow them up when they drive.

What I really take from this game going forward is Mason's willingness to post up and shoot. I saw one instance in the 2nd half where he got the ball near the basket, chose to pass out to Lance, who sank a 15 footer. That was slightly disappointing, but besides that, I'm pleased with Mason's performance. I expect it to keep improving a lot, as he get more and more practices with the team. It seems like the most important thing for our team's success in march is the Plumlee brothers (and perhaps how effective LT and Z will be off the bench), so what does the rest of the board think about their game performance?

[COYS]

What I really take from this game going forward is Mason's willingness to post up and shoot. I saw one instance in the 2nd half where he got the ball near the basket, chose to pass out to Lance, who sank a 15 footer. That was slightly disappointing, but besides that, I'm pleased with Mason's performance. I expect it to keep improving a lot, as he get more and more practices with the team. It seems like the most important thing for our team's success in march is the Plumlee brothers (and perhaps how effective LT and Z will be off the bench), so what does the rest of the board think about their game performance?

That pass by Mason was absolutely the right call, though. Lance was wide open at the free throw line. I was very impressed with his ability to take his man off the dribble (even if he missed the runner), and post up and shoot the turnaround J, even if he missed that. Both moves were fluid and smooth. Also, his hands look to be excellent. Miles might be stronger, but Mason is more explosive and controlled. HIs movements are effortless and I can't wait to see how good he can become.

[bfree]

I'm talking about Nolan completely -- and intentionally -- not passing to a wide open Andre under the basket, and instead dribbling around for a couple of seconds on the perimeter so that he could drive inside for his own two points.

If I am remembering the play correctly, Nolan was double teamed and was trying to dribble away from the basket to run the clock. The double team made the pass under the basket a little tricky. And once the double team fell apart, it was easy for him to go through and get the dunk. Maybe it would have been nice to give it to 'Dre, but it wasn't as bad as you're making it sound in my opinion.

[Jumbo]

So, especially in light of recent discussions, this very much felt like a game where you can turn around and say "OK, we're not there yet, but I can see where we're going."

There were some really positive developments, which corresponded to many of the recent concerns about the team:

1) We involved the bigs early and often. I've said that it doesn't matter if they shoot much as long as they gut touches, but against St. John's, they did both. It made us much more versatile and dangerous.

2) I'd been concerned about Nolan playing with his head down too much. Early in the first half, he drove, saw Zoubek under the hoop and fed him the ball for an easy layup. Then, in a key second-half sequence, he drove right and Kyle's man cheated into the lane to help on the penetration. Nolan kicked it out and Kyle hit the 3. Next time down, Nolan drive right again, Kyle's man stayed home, and Nolan went all the way to the rim for the layup and the foul. Those are good signs -- hopefully he can keep it up.

3) The ball movement was better. As Bilas said, we rean a good amount of Flex-style motion. But we fed the bigs, looked hi-lo and screened off the ball. You can sort of see what will happen when Mason is back in the swing of things and if Miles develops, as Bilas called it, "a scoring ego." A system is starting to develop that would capitalize on those skills, plus any improvement from Ryan Kelly, who played nicely in the first half.

4) Lance Thomas took, and made, three jumpers. Early in the season, some of us were debating whether he should be taking those shots. I said he has to, because it's a way to make himself a threat. Those shots were all big today (and part of a terrific game on his part) and the foundation for -- hopefully -- continued success. If defense have to honor him from 15 feet, it'll open up driving lanes for other guys.

5) We looked to post Kyle Singler on smaller players. I've been asking for this for a long time, and it's glad to see that we're making it a point of emphasis.

Of course, there's still plenty to work on. The jump shooting was off, but that happens in basketball. Kyle posted a lot, but we didn't get him the ball enough in those situations; entry passes should be a point of emphasis in practices, I think. The help D was a little too slow to react, especially for a team playing a "contain" defense. But you really can see how, if we focus on these issues, this team can continue to get better.

BTW, on a totally separate note, can Jon Scheyer buy a call this year? He's probably been hit on a dozen jump shots alone in 8 games with no foul -- including two today. I'm not even talking about the drives where he leans into a defender just looking to draw contact -- I don't have as much sympathy for those. I'm talking about pure jump shots where a defender smacks him in the arm. Ridiculous.

Good win. Now let's get through exams and let the improvement really begin!

[theAlaskanBear]

Duke hasn't been shooting the ball very well. It has me a bit concerned. Offensively, they just don't look comfortable. Overall I think Singler and Smith have a tendency to overdribble the ball.

Scheyer has been good driving down and getting fouled. Zoubs was great on the boards, and had a very efficient game. Thomas was great defensively.

Duke did a much better job getting scoring touches down low. Offense was more balanced!

The frosh were no shows offensively, but Mason did look a little better today.

Gutty win by Duke, and a good game by St John's. They really hung in there.

[phaedrus]

Indoor:

I'm talking about Nolan completely -- and intentionally -- not passing to a wide open Andre under the basket, and instead dribbling around for a couple of seconds on the perimeter so that he could drive inside for his own two points.

If I remember correctly, it was also Nolan who, seemingly completely unaware of the fact that in basketball, when down three with less than five seconds to play, you shoot the triple or find someone who is open for one, ignored everyone else and plowed inside for a failed lay-up attempt in the final seconds against Wisconsin.

I'm sick of the selfishness he's showed during parts of this season. He looked like Baby Iverson out there at the end.

BS.

Nolan should have passed it off for an uncontested three-pointer instead of holding onto it for an uncontested lay-up? We all like to see Andre shoot the ball, but you're really off base here.

(Which is not to say that Nolan has been great at distributing the ball this year, or hasn't been guilty of forcing things himself at times - but this example is not on point.)

[JBDuke]

That late blocked shot by Jon was Battier-esque.

[_Gary]

Nolan should have passed it off for an uncontested three-pointer instead of holding onto it for an uncontested lay-up? We all like to see Andre shoot the ball, but you're really off base here.

It wasn't a three Andre was open for. It was a layup. And I do admit it was awkward that Nolan didn't pass him the ball, but I'm not about to say there was some "freeze out" going on.

[Hermy-own]

Look, here is the deal with Andre:
There are two main plays that people are concerned about. One is when Dre was open for a 3 ball in the middle of the 2nd half, and I believe it was smith, though it may have been sheyer, chose to dribble to the other side of the court.

The second play is when Nolan broke a double team and took the slam dunk, instead of passing to Dre who was wide open in the lane.

The first play is weird, but nothing awful. I don't think anyone is freezing Andre out or anything. They simply chose not to pass it at that time, for whatever reason. I think this may go back to a poster above who noticed that Smith, Singler and Sheyer all try to carry the team on their backs sometimes.

The second play is also odd, but my guess is that Smith wasn't as alert as he should have been. If he had noticed the double team coming immediately, he might have been able to make the pass. Once the double team reached him, he just reacted and broke it. Once he had a clear path to the basket, why not dunk it? Nolan should have passed it, but I believe it was a mental error, not an intentionally selfish act.

[Bob Green]

We achieved offensive balance today with five players scoring in double digits. It was our five upper classmen who carried the team to victory today. Zoubek and Thomas coming off the bench to combine for 22 points and 15 rebounds was impressive. Obviously, this team can play much better than they did today but this game certainly was a building block for continued improvement.

[bfree]

It wasn't a three Andre was open for. It was a layup. And I do admit it was awkward that Nolan didn't pass him the ball, but I'm not about to say there was some "freeze out" going on.

Further, 'Dre gets a lot of credit for spreading the floor even when he isn't getting the ball. The Johnnies were obviously concerned with his shooting and he had a man in his face almost the whole game. So him not getting great shots today is somewhat a factor of him shooting so well against Wisconsin.

[roywhite]

Good win overall; I'm curious about the reliance on small ball in the last several minutes.

The lineup was Scheyer, Singler, Smith, Dawkins and Lance almost exclusively late in the second half. That's probably the best group of ball handlers and foul shooters, but St. John's was able to drive and score inside much more.

I'm not sure if the small lineup near the end will be a regular thing, or depend on the development of, say, the Plumlees?

Thoughts from others?

[grossbus]

"BTW, on a totally separate note, can Jon Scheyer buy a call this year? He's probably been hit on a dozen jump shots alone in 8 games with no foul "

boy, that's the truth!

[BlueintheFace]

Initial Thoughts:

The Ryan Kelly Conundrum: The kid is obviously a very smart player with good vision and a very good passer. He can also hit the three, but Duke cannot play consistent man-to-man effectively with him in the game and must run a zone. Is his passing ability worth going to zone? Not really. He still makes good decisions with the ball in his hand which is encouraging.

Jon is such a smart player. some of those passes... oh man. 6 assists, 0 turnovers... 10.25:1 a/to ratio. Also, apparently Jon is a blocking force now. I love it.

Kyle is having some shot selection issues through the last two games (though last game a lot of those prayers went in). I wanted to see him post up his smaller man a few times but only saw it once.

If I see one person on this thread ask for more minutes for Dawkins... I will really laugh at them. He got over 20 minutes while struggling to prevent penetration in man defense, and contributing almost nothing on offense. He is a hell of a shooter, but frankly his impact is minimal when he isn't open for three. He averages 20 mpg on the season.

I don't know why Mason got so few minutes but I am guessing he is not completely fit or healthy. That is the most logical explanation. Not that K hates him.

I don't know why Miles got so few minutes, but I am guessing it is because Lance played very very well... better than Miles. Miles also struggled early on defense. I think it might have had more to do with LT and Zou than Miles...

Nolan was definitely much smarter with shot selection this game. When curling off of screens into the lane he was much smarter about finding perimeter players or backing out the ball when the easy shot wasn't there. I counted at least three instances where he would have kept going to the hole in the last few games for the bad shot, but instead made a smart decision. A nice game for him I thought.

[Cameron]

Scratch that above, I meant Andre.

[Jumbo]

Good win overall; I'm curious about the reliance on small ball in the last several minutes.

The lineup was Scheyer, Singler, Smith, Dawkins and Lance almost exclusively late in the second half. That's probably the best group of ball handlers and foul shooters, but St. John's was able to drive and score inside much more.

I'm not sure if the small lineup near the end will be a regular thing, or depend on the development of, say, the Plumlees?

Thoughts from others?

I think it's OK. I never have any problem with Kyle playing the 4, and late in close games, I think we want shooters/ball-handlers in the game, which means moving Kyle to the 4 and getting Andre into the lineup. As the year goes on, I expect Mason to be the 5th member of that lineup. But Lance was playing really well and St. John's wasn't particularly big either, so it was fine.

BTW, isn't it nice that "small-ball" now consists of playing Kyle at the 4, rather than the 5? ;)

[Jumbo]

"BTW, on a totally separate note, can Jon Scheyer buy a call this year? He's probably been hit on a dozen jump shots alone in 8 games with no foul "

boy, that's the truth!

Glad I'm not seeing things. It's getting ridiculous!

[Poincaré]

Indoor:
I'm talking about Nolan completely -- and intentionally -- not passing to a wide open Andre under the basket, and instead dribbling around for a couple of seconds on the perimeter so that he could drive inside for his own two points.


I wish you were right about this being a moment of selfishness. I just don't think that Nolan (nor anyone else on this team for that matter) has PG-level court vision/pass-making ability. Notice that we almost never make bounce passes. That alone reduces a significant number of good passes we can make in a half-court set (which we are in most of the time, unfortunately). It may also be one of the reasons we can't seem to make good entry passes.

[Greg_Newton]

Hmm. Good to win. Lance "had it" again today... so far, he's showed up big against tough, athletic teams, which I'll take. Those three 15-footers were also great to see... I think it might help corral his at-times spastic movements if he can define an actual offensive role for himself.

I do hope everything's alright with Nolan. I'm happy to see him play under 35 minutes, but he doesn't usually sit that long if he's not in foul trouble... and the ensuing non-pass to Andre was a little strange. Hopefully I'm just reading too much into a bunch of nothing.

After the first half, I was thinking K had to be reading this board. The Plumlees were rotating in with Z and Lance and we were out-toughing SJU and dominating the glass, we were feeding the post well, passing well and often, Singler was posting up, Kelly got 5 minutes or so and looked great. The second half... eh, not quite as thrilling. I can understand sitting Kelly, he got his 5 mins so I'm happy. I can understand sitting Mason, although he showed some exciting things early on. Lance was playing great, so we kept him in as we should have. Z was doing a lot of good things (rebounds, challenging shots, getting to the line)... but also some bad things (TO, giving up a 3 point play, illegal screen).

Basically, I'm not sure what warranted sitting Miles virtually the entire 2nd half. I thought he was a great presence in the first half... not scoring big, but playing tough and above the rim and giving us all that a "center" should. He looked pretty frustrated to be on the bench near the end of the game. Z is a huge asset to our team, but I see him more as a change-of-pace guy that can catch teams off guard for a few mins at a time and key some runs... Miles is really "our center".

Part of it is just that Mason and Miles are so much more fun to watch, but I wanted to see them much more than the combined 16 minutes they got tonight. I'll trust that K did this as a motivational tool... we've got a week and a half break before the next game, so maybe it was a lesson about discipline or something. Mason is precocious enough for the both of them (which I love), but I hope the "short leash syndrome" doesn't start to affect Miles. He's starting to "think too much" again.

Edit: I don't know if Jon's getting murdered as bad as it looks on his jumpers. I think he's learned Kobe's move where he lowers his arm after his release to create contact with a defender jumping across his body... sneaky, but not always foul-worthy!

[Wander]

This Andre thing is getting a little silly. I remember Singler having a great post up multiple times and not being fed the ball, and I remember Scheyer having a perfect cut right to an open area under the basket and not being passed to either. Are they being frozen out too?

[Bob Green]

Let's all move on from the Smith - Dawkins conversation. It is silly and there are plenty of legitimate conversations waiting to happen. Thanks!

[BlueintheFace]

I think it's OK. I never have any problem with Kyle playing the 4, and late in close games, I think we want shooters/ball-handlers in the game, which means moving Kyle to the 4 and getting Andre into the lineup. As the year goes on, I expect Mason to be the 5th member of that lineup. But Lance was playing really well and St. John's wasn't particularly big either, so it was fine.

BTW, isn't it nice that "small-ball" now consists of playing Kyle at the 4, rather than the 5? ;)

What have most people been asking for late in the game? Put our best scorers on the floor. Well, Jon, Nolan, Kyle, Dre (the three point shooter) and Miles or Lance.

K has granted many-a-wish this season

[superdave]

Nolan really wanted to dunk that ball. So what? Let's all move on.

The two MP's really challenge shots on the defensive end. When they learn to position themselves better, push guys off the blocks and force tough shots rather than rely on leaping, it's going to be a big positive.

Seems like LT and BZ are good every other game.

[Jumbo]

Let's all move on from the Smith - Dawkins conversation. It is silly and there are plenty of legitimate conversations waiting to happen. Thanks!

What Bob said. Everyone seems to agree that this is a non-issue except for one poster. Let's talk about the game, rather than inventing a controversy that doesn't exist -- and is easily chalked up to so-so vision. Cool?

[BlueintheFace]

The curl and alley-oop play looks good this season. When we can run that on both sides with both Plumlees... oh boy

[sandinmyshoes]

On Jon getting hit on jump shots and not getting the calls, I'm afraid he may have gotten a rep for over selling contact on jumpers. Now the refs are being overly skeptical, I'm guessing.

[Saratoga2]

I was interested in how coach K would adjust his lineups in view of the last game. One thing he did to start was to play the two Plumlees together. While they looked decent out there, when he went back to Zoubek and Thomas, they showed much more than against Wisconsin. Thomas in particular had an excellent overall game. He was given open looks and was unafraid to take and make them. All were swishes. In addition, he went to the basket near the end of an important possession and got the layup. His defense were very good as well and his hustle caused at least one important turnover. Zoubek also played well and was fed often enough to get some points inside. As long as he keeps the ball high, he has a chance of scoring. He played very well in the first half but appeared to revert to the mode of picking up fouls in the second half.

I was also pleased to see Ryan Kelly in the game with a reasonable amount of playing time. His defense looked very acceptable and he doesn't make the silly offensive mistakes. He did make one shot from outside and got the ball inside on a high low pass. I think using him for the high low passing game would really play to his strength.

At the end of the game, coach K chose to go small to preserve the lead. Another interesting lineup and it worked sufficiently well to maintain the lead.

All in all, the I thought all the players had decent games. We did what we had to and won against a good team. They had lost one of their better players early and we had home court advantage, so it doesn't tell us much about how good our team can be, it was encouraging to see coach K experimenting with different lineups and players. In my view Jon Scheyer was the player of the game followed closely by Lance Thomas.

[Jumbo]

On Jon getting hit on jump shots and not getting the calls, I'm afraid he may have gotten a rep for over selling contact on jumpers. Now the refs are being overly skeptical, I'm guessing.

That would be unfortunate. Also, is it me, or do an abnormal number of his three-pointers go halfway down and somehow pop back out?

[roywhite]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204844897

Some stats of interest:
St. John's shot over 50% FG, but Duke won the rebounding 41-31
Blue Devils continue to shoot free throws well, 19-24
Mason and Miles played only 16 minutes combined
Jon Scheyer broke out of his ball handling "slump":)...6 assists, 0 turnovers

[BlueintheFace]

Hey, where are all the posters who kept complaining about Lance Thomas taking the midrange jumper? ..... (crickets)

[BlueintheFace]

Also, is it me, or do an abnormal number of his three-pointers go halfway down and somehow pop back out?

Especially that corner three off the set screen allowing him to fade into the corner for the open shot. I'd say 50% of the time that sucker teases the netting before leaving. It's a rotation issue I think.

[_Gary]

On Jon getting hit on jump shots and not getting the calls, I'm afraid he may have gotten a rep for over selling contact on jumpers. Now the refs are being overly skeptical, I'm guessing.

You may be right, although I think for the most part it's an undeserved rep (if that's what is happening). But no, Jumbo, you are not going crazy. I've seen this several times this year and kept forgetting to comment on it. Jon is getting fouled on his jumpers, especially his 3's, and he's pretty much never getting a call. It's really ridiculous at this point.

[Jumbo]

Blue Devils continue to shoot free throws well, 19-24

79.8% on the season, too! I know part of that is because the three guys who are taking the vast majority of our shots -- Scheyer, Singler, Smith -- are terrific FT shooters, but the fact that Lance is knocking down his FTs this year is a pleasant surprise. Now Zoubek just needs to get back to last year's pace.

[superdave]

Also, is it me, or do an abnormal number of his three-pointers go halfway down and somehow pop back out?

Jon has a sideways spin on his jumper. That may account for the down and somehow back out 3s.

[Jumbo]

Especially that corner three off the set screen allowing him to fade into the corner for the open shot. I'd say 50% of the time that sucker teases the netting before leaving. It's a rotation issue I think.

Yeah, Bilas mentioned that he doesn't have perfect rotation -- a bit of sidespin, i've noticed --but that he's perfected "his way of shooting." Just a shame, because if a few of those stay down -- and they've happened in multiple games -- and he gets the calls on the jumpers that have been so badly blown, he's probably averaging 19-plus.

[superdave]

We got a 30 and 24 combined from our 5 bigs today. (LT, BZ, the MPs and Kelly) We will win against a lot of teams if we can replicate that every game.

[duke09hms]

Hey, where are all the posters who kept complaining about Lance Thomas taking the midrange jumper? ..... (crickets)

Here's one. This is just one game vs 3+ seasons of Lance displaying no shot, my friend. And I believe the issue was more with LT and Z getting minutes at the expense of the Plumlees.

The team has a much higher ceiling with the Plumlees getting the bulk of the post minutes and LT/Z being solid bench contributors. However, I do hope that this game is indicative of LT's growing ability to shoot because the team cannot hope to go far in March without every player on the court being able to contribute offensively.

[BlueintheFace]

Here's one. This is just one game vs 3+ seasons of Lance displaying no shot, my friend.

A few problems here. He didn't start taking them really until halfway through last season. Also, he made them fairly consistently at the end of last season and I think it is fair to say he has made them somewhat consistently this year... probably taken it about 12-15 times this year and hit it 7 or 8 times. Obviously it is not option one, but he's definitely hitting it.

[Bob Green]

A couple of interesting statistics. Jon Scheyer now has 42 assists and 5 turnovers for a 8.4:1 assists to turnover ratio. Duke's Big 4 (Scheyer, Singler, Smith, and Dawkins) are making 41.1 percent of their 3-point attempts on the season (60/146).

[BlueintheFace]

A couple of interesting statistics. Jon Scheyer now has 42 assists and 5 turnovers for a 8.4:1 assists to turnover ratio. Duke's Big 4 (Scheyer, Singler, Smith, and Dawkins) are making 41.1 percent of their 3-point attempts on the season (60/146).

Interesting. ESPN has 41 assists to 4 turnovers

[Jumbo]

Interesting. ESPN has 41 assists to 4 turnovers

Remember that discrepancy from the Arizona State game? I think that's still showing up.

[Bob Green]

Interesting. ESPN has 41 assists to 4 turnovers

I try to always use the stats posted at GoDuke.com. Those are the official ones (to the best of my knowledge).

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I'm a little late on my two cents, but better late than never. I was pretty happy with the game. St. John's is a good team and will probably be an NIT team this year, maybe even sneak in the tourney if they can get a handful of good wins in conference.
The bad: I am a little concerned about our penetration defense. In the 2nd half, they got in the lane very easily and got a lot of dunks and lay-ups. Dawkins flat out has to play better defensively as we get into ACC play. I know St. Johns is an athletic team, but that has to get better. Also, Miles can not regress into the bench again like he did last year. He has to play with confidence and has to play with some sort of scoring mentality when he gets the ball.
The Good: Scheyer continues to play like an ACC POY. He is so savvy and so smart, its ridiculous. He is shooting the ball well (except when he gets knocked to the ground!) and he alone is a pressure breaker. LT had a great game and was assertive on offense. If he can contiune to knock down mid range jumpers, it will do wonders for him and us as a team. Zoubs keeps doing his thing. I thought that illegal screen call was a bit of a stretch and that put him on the bench, but he is a solid contributor off the bench. Lastly, Mason will be great. He has such a solid stroke and is so athletic, he is going to get really good in the next month. I hope to see him and Miles get good PT and be very effective before we play Gonzaga because we will need them against guys like Sacre and Harris.

[Greg_Newton]

...The bad: I am a little concerned about our penetration defense. In the 2nd half, they got in the lane very easily and got a lot of dunks and lay-ups...

You touched on this yourself, but IMO this is entirely due to Miles and Mason being absent in the second half. When they're in, it completely changes the complexion of our defense... no easy baskets around the hoop.

That in itself isn't an argument to play them over Lance and Z all the time, but it's certainly something to consider that isn't always reflected in points/rebounds numbers.

[Neals384]

I was interested to hear that "Madison" Plumlee may also choose Duke. I thought I heard it worng but the announcer said the same thing in the 2nd half.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Is there inconsistency. They can be great, as with Thomas and Z today, or disappear, as with Wisconsin. FYI - I love Thomas. Just thought I'd throw it in there.

Also, Nolan is starting to pick it up again. Weeeeeeeee....

[Sixthman]

The Plumlees were rotating in with Z and Lance and we were out-toughing SJU and dominating the glass, we were feeding the post well, passing well and often, Singler was posting up, Kelly got 5 minutes or so and looked great. The second half... eh, not quite as thrilling. I can understand sitting Kelly, he got his 5 mins so I'm happy. I can understand sitting Mason, although he showed some exciting things early on. Lance was playing great, so we kept him in as we should have. Z was doing a lot of good things (rebounds, challenging shots, getting to the line)... but also some bad things (TO, giving up a 3 point play, illegal screen).

Basically, I'm not sure what warranted sitting Miles virtually the entire 2nd half. I thought he was a great presence in the first half... not scoring big, but playing tough and above the rim and giving us all that a "center" should. He looked pretty frustrated to be on the bench near the end of the game. Z is a huge asset to our team, but I see him more as a change-of-pace guy that can catch teams off guard for a few mins at a time and key some runs... Miles is really "our center".

Part of it is just that Mason and Miles are so much more fun to watch, but I wanted to see them much more than the combined 16 minutes they got tonight. I'll trust that K did this as a motivational tool... we've got a week and a half break before the next game, so maybe it was a lesson about discipline or something. Mason is precocious enough for the both of them (which I love), but I hope the "short leash syndrome" doesn't start to affect Miles. He's starting to "think too much" again.


I'm not just picking on this post. The Plumlees both got the start today and both brought nothing to the court. There was no effective rotation in and out. They were taken out every time they came in because they were stunningly less effective than Zoubek and LT. They were so weak, that when Z got in foul trouble, the team went small TO AVOID BRINGING MILES OR MASON BACK IN. Both of them were out of position on defense, both of them gave up layups due to over rotation on the help, and both of them had no impact on offense (Miles had more opportunity than Mason). Miles had three turnovers in nine minutes. This was against an opponent who, in truth, was unable to defend against Zoubek. Let's carefully consider the phrase I just used, because you will not hear it often, if ever again.

I hear over and over on this board how great the Plumlees are, and cannot shout loudly enough that what we are really talking about is how great we hope they will be, not how great they are. I agree with every estimate of their potential, acknowledge that Mason has not had the opportunity yet to show his stuff, and i personally believe they will improve and be completely different players by the end of the year. But right now, Zoubek and LT are better players, and it was never more clear than today.

As for the second half, we got outplayed today. I agree with Coach K's assessment that we were tired. I also share his concern expressed in the post game interview that our perimeter players had tired legs and this undermined their ability to score. I don't know what the solution is for this in the long run, but all of them playing big minutes is not good, and if we have to play Singler and Scheyer 39 minutes against St. John's, we're going to have to do the same against nearly every ACC opponent. This means -- in the long run -- we're going to need a lot of points inside. We got thirty from the bigs today, and I think we'll need to average more than that to be effective as the season goes on. Here's hoping Lance and Z play like they did today and Miles and Mason play like we believe they can.

[SMO]

So, especially in light of recent discussions, this very much felt like a game where you can turn around and say "OK, we're not there yet, but I can see where we're going."

There were some really positive developments, which corresponded to many of the recent concerns about the team:

1) We involved the bigs early and often. I've said that it doesn't matter if they shoot much as long as they gut touches, but against St. John's, they did both. It made us much more versatile and dangerous.

2) I'd been concerned about Nolan playing with his head down too much. Early in the first half, he drove, saw Zoubek under the hoop and fed him the ball for an easy layup. Then, in a key second-half sequence, he drove right and Kyle's man cheated into the lane to help on the penetration. Nolan kicked it out and Kyle hit the 3. Next time down, Nolan drive right again, Kyle's man stayed home, and Nolan went all the way to the rim for the layup and the foul. Those are good signs -- hopefully he can keep it up.

3) The ball movement was better. As Bilas said, we rean a good amount of Flex-style motion. But we fed the bigs, looked hi-lo and screened off the ball. You can sort of see what will happen when Mason is back in the swing of things and if Miles develops, as Bilas called it, "a scoring ego." A system is starting to develop that would capitalize on those skills, plus any improvement from Ryan Kelly, who played nicely in the first half.

4) Lance Thomas took, and made, three jumpers. Early in the season, some of us were debating whether he should be taking those shots. I said he has to, because it's a way to make himself a threat. Those shots were all big today (and part of a terrific game on his part) and the foundation for -- hopefully -- continued success. If defense have to honor him from 15 feet, it'll open up driving lanes for other guys.

5) We looked to post Kyle Singler on smaller players. I've been asking for this for a long time, and it's glad to see that we're making it a point of emphasis.

Of course, there's still plenty to work on. The jump shooting was off, but that happens in basketball. Kyle posted a lot, but we didn't get him the ball enough in those situations; entry passes should be a point of emphasis in practices, I think. The help D was a little too slow to react, especially for a team playing a "contain" defense. But you really can see how, if we focus on these issues, this team can continue to get better.

BTW, on a totally separate note, can Jon Scheyer buy a call this year? He's probably been hit on a dozen jump shots alone in 8 games with no foul -- including two today. I'm not even talking about the drives where he leans into a defender just looking to draw contact -- I don't have as much sympathy for those. I'm talking about pure jump shots where a defender smacks him in the arm. Ridiculous.

Good win. Now let's get through exams and let the improvement really begin!

Good analysis. What are your and others' thoughts on Duke's transition defense? It looked at times like Duke's size resulted in guys not getting back and organized on D in time, which resulted in some SJU opportunities. I liked the number of altered or blocked shots in the half-court, but a weakness may be speedy guards getting down the floor before our guys are set.

[SMO]

Anybody catch Jay saying MP2 is the most talented big Duke has had in a LONG time? Jay is not once to play fast and loose with high praise of Duke players, so I found this exciting. That probably means more talented than McBob or Shelden, which would be huge.

[FireOgilvie]

I hear over and over on this board how great the Plumlees are, and cannot shout loudly enough that what we are really talking about is how great we hope they will be, not how great they are. I agree with every estimate of their potential, acknowledge that Mason has not had the opportunity yet to show his stuff, and i personally believe they will improve and be completely different players by the end of the year. But right now, Zoubek and LT are better players, and it was never more clear than today.



Well, Miles is averaging more points/game than both Lance and Zoubek, and more rebounds than Lance and 0.3 less than Zoubek. Miles also has better +/- numbers than both of them. He also has twice as many blocks as both of them combined. He also has a better shooting percentage than both of them. Oh, and he's doing all of this in less minutes per game than Lance. Zoubek would probably play more minutes, but he gets into foul trouble too quickly. Miles also averages fewer fouls than both of them. Zoubek and Lance also most likely won't improve as much over the course of the season as Miles and Mason will because of the difference in experience levels.

But, other than that, you might be right. :rolleyes:

[tbyers11]

I'm not just picking on this post. The Plumlees both got the start today and both brought nothing to the court. There was no effective rotation in and out. They were taken out every time they came in because they were stunningly less effective than Zoubek and LT. They were so weak, that when Z got in foul trouble, the team went small TO AVOID BRINGING MILES OR MASON BACK IN. Both of them were out of position on defense, both of them gave up layups due to over rotation on the help, and both of them had no impact on offense (Miles had more opportunity than Mason). Miles had three turnovers in nine minutes. This was against an opponent who, in truth, was unable to defend against Zoubek. Let's carefully consider the phrase I just used, because you will not hear it often, if ever again.



I agree that Miles and Mason's defensive problems were the reason that they got so few minutes today. Poor rotation, frequently the over rotation mentioned above, greatly negates their shot blocking abilities. Miles was particularly bad at his defensive rotations in the Wisconsin (mostly in the first half) game as well.


Well, Miles is averaging more points/game than both Lance and Zoubek, and more rebounds than Lance and 0.3 less than Zoubek. Miles also has better +/- numbers than both of them. He also has twice as many blocks as both of them combined. He also has a better shooting percentage than both of them. Oh, and he's doing all of this in less minutes per game than Lance. Zoubek would probably play more minutes, but he gets into foul trouble too quickly. Miles also averages fewer fouls than both of them. Zoubek and Lance also most likely won't improve as much over the course of the season as Miles and Mason will because of the difference in experience levels.

But, other than that, you might be right. :rolleyes:

Defense, and particularly team defense, is difficult to quantify. Blocked shots are but one component. The numbers you cite above (other than blocks) aren't very much in Miles favor either. Miles' higher offensive and defensive upside aren't going to get him many minutes when his overall defense is so lacking. I believe that Miles (and Mason) will improve with more game experience but Zoubek and Lance were definitely much better today.

[NSDukeFan]

1) We involved the bigs early and often. I've said that it doesn't matter if they shoot much as long as they gut touches, but against St. John's, they did both. It made us much more versatile and dangerous.


This is what I was most excited about. I am very happy to see Brian and Lance rebound from the down game at Wisconsin. If we can see at least 2 out of them and the Plumlees make solid contributions inside every game, it makes us such a different team. It looked like this was a focus in the game as we did look inside very early.

I really enjoy watching Ryan Kelly play. I think he is in a tough situation in that he can contribute (I think with a bit of improvement, he can be fine defensively for us) offensively, but has a tough time with the number of quality players in front of him. He seems to be one of our best entry passers from the high post and I like his ability to put the ball on the floor for a dribble or two and shoot.

Also, thank you to whoever it was in a previous game's thread who mentioned that there are archives on justin.tv as I was not able to watch most of the game live, but just finished watching it now.

[Cockabeau]

A trend that I do not like seeing is Kyle not passing the ball upcourt when he gets the rebound. He almost always tries to go coast to coast for a basket.

[Greg_Newton]

Defense, and particularly team defense, is difficult to quantify. Blocked shots are but one component. The numbers you cite above (other than blocks) aren't very much in Miles favor either. Miles' higher offensive and defensive upside aren't going to get him many minutes when his overall defense is so lacking. I believe that Miles (and Mason) will improve with more game experience but Zoubek and Lance were definitely much better today.

Good point, but the non-quantifiable defensive factors go both ways. For example, Miles and Mason alter many, many more shots than Lance and Z, and their presence alone makes opponents think twice when taking it to the rim. IMO, this was a big reason SJU seemed to be getting to the basket much easier in the 2nd half.

[Acymetric]

Was glad to see us man up and take control back at the end of this game, after letting them slide back into the game in the second half. I was really pleased with the bigs today, Lance had a monster game, I hope he can keep it up (not the first time such a thing has been said about him...hopefully it sticks this time).

There are only two issues that I saw today (and this season as a whole). Shot selection. It seems like Kyle, Nolan, and Jon have fallen in love with a couple "circus" shots that I'm not much of a fan of. Sure, sometimes they go in, but other times they hit the side of the backboard (Wisconsin). Unless the shot clock is running down we need to be at least a little more selective.

The other is feeding the post. I know this has been touched on in the past, but I really think we're doing a poor job of finding anyone in the paint when they're posting up. I recall seeing us miss Kyle, Z, Lance, Jon, and probably one or two other guys with great position to catch and score, but whoever was on the perimeter just dribbled around or passed to someone else. This is frustrating, because its easy points we're leaving on the table. I imagine its also frustrating for the usual bigs to be posting up and fighting for position, only to be rewarded with the chance to watch a jumpshot sail over their head. Obviously we're still winning, and we shouldn't dump it into the post EVERY time, because we have great guards. Still, I would like to see a little more balance there. On a related note, Kelly made a beautiful feed to the post (can't remember if it was Lance or Z...I'm sure someone else does). One of the best post feeds of the season, I thought.

Anways, great win, hope the guys enjoy the time off and get in some good practice...bring on Gardener-Webb!

[NSDukeFan]

Good point, but the non-quantifiable defensive factors go both ways. For example, Miles and Mason alter many, many more shots than Lance and Z, and their presence alone makes opponents think twice when taking it to the rim. IMO, this was a big reason SJU seemed to be getting to the basket much easier in the 2nd half.

I think Z does alter a significant number of shots as well, just from being over 7 feet tall. I have always suspected this is part of why his +/- has tended to be pretty good. I agree that Miles and Mason will likely alter many more this year, but I don't know that you can say that yet, just because Z has done it for years and Mason hasn't had much of a chance yet.
I agree with your overall point that Miles and Mason are shot-blocking and altering presences inside, which is one major reason to think this team could potentially be better than last year's.

[OldSchool]

"You laugh, you think, you cry, Duke wins and Carolina loses -- that's a full day. That's a good day!"

Coach V, still inspiring us.

[dukelifer]

As for the second half, we got outplayed today. I agree with Coach K's assessment that we were tired. I also share his concern expressed in the post game interview that our perimeter players had tired legs and this undermined their ability to score. I don't know what the solution is for this in the long run, but all of them playing big minutes is not good, and if we have to play Singler and Scheyer 39 minutes against St. John's, we're going to have to do the same against nearly every ACC opponent. This means -- in the long run -- we're going to need a lot of points inside. We got thirty from the bigs today, and I think we'll need to average more than that to be effective as the season goes on. Here's hoping Lance and Z play like they did today and Miles and Mason play like we believe they can.


At some level Duke got outplayed- but this was an odd game. Duke played well in the first half got to a big lead- survived a comeback- got it back up to 16 again and then coasted in. K also said they were tired mentally. The kids are coming off two road trips- and are in the midst of the last week of classes going into finals. Lots going on. K looks to be trying things- looking at combinations - trying to get his big guys involved more. This team is a work in progress. The good news they are not peaking early. They will get out of rhythm in the next 10 days- and not play a good team for 2 weeks. This team has work to do- but they have potential to be good. Right now - they need to continue to tinker - get some rest and start the ACC season 1-03-10.

[hq2]

Didn't get to see the whole game, but have a few observations.

1. Liked Nolan's shot selection; looked a bit better, less of these crazy high angle bank drives into traffic.

2. Let's give MP2 a break. He's been injured, he's still a freshman, give the guy a chance. He obviously has great physical ability, and looks pretty coordinated too. Give him a while to figure some things out, and he could be pretty good. Reminds me a lot of Cherokee Parks when he was a freshman; same talent level, needed a lot of development.

3. I'm starting to have some doubts about MP1. He's a sophomore now, and isn't really showing much of a low post game. Does he have one?

4. Hey, if Lance can hit jumpers, well let him shoot! He had times last year when he was effective too, but not consistently. With the triple S and Andre offense, he should be getting a lot of open looks. If he can keep knocking them down, that will be a huge plus for the team.

[Greg_Newton]

I think Z does alter a significant number of shots as well, just from being over 7 feet tall. I have always suspected this is part of why his +/- has tended to be pretty good. I agree that Miles and Mason will likely alter many more this year, but I don't know that you can say that yet, just because Z has done it for years and Mason hasn't had much of a chance yet.
I agree with your overall point that Miles and Mason are shot-blocking and altering presences inside, which is one major reason to think this team could potentially be better than last year's.

Agreed that Z alters a lot of interior shots, which is one of the reasons he's such a luxury off the bench. However, he seems to primarily use his sheer size to snuff out attempts by post players and other below-the-rim interior shots, if you will. The impression I get from watching is that Miles (and Mason) are much better at getting up and meeting the ball above the rim and literally "protecting the basket", which usually happens against penetrating players that are taking it hard to the hoop.

So the way I see it, Z is better at shutting down big ogres in the post, while Miles and Mason are much better at discouraging penetration and protecting the rim... which is why it's so nice to have at least one of them in. JMO, of course.

[Duke05]

Thought this was a good reminder to the fan community, from Coach K's postgame (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204844735):

On coming out fired up, interaction with fans:
“I wanted my team to see it. Our fans are great … they expect us to win. They don’t understand the development into being a winning team. This is still very much a developing team. We had a really tough loss against Wisconsin. Our perimeter, over three games, was shooting 30 percent. This isn’t like a walk in the park. In other words, that is where our team is. I don’t know if we, as a community, are sensitized to that. I am. This is one of the biggest games we have played in a couple years, today. None of our fans would feel that way, although they respect St. John’s. I’m not blaming them [the fans], I am just trying to include them. Maybe they see on my face, ‘Hey, he is pretty concerned today.’ That was it. I thought the fans were very good. I’m not complaining about the fans, I’m just saying … we will scrutinize a loss or criticize some things, but we don’t take a good look at development. Every team has to be given an opportunity to develop. This one has a chance to be a very good team and has been thus far.”

[dukelifer]

3. I'm starting to have some doubts about MP1. He's a sophomore now, and isn't really showing much of a low post game. Does he have one?



To quote a wise fan " He obviously has great physical ability, and looks pretty coordinated too. Give him a while to figure some things out, and he could be pretty good." "He's still a (sophomore), give the guy a chance."

[1999ballboy]

On Jon not getting calls: Jon is the absolute best player in the country at drawing fouls. I think it is safe to say that refs have picked up on this, because I've noticed him not getting as many calls lately too. What's remarkable is that he still manages to draw a few creative fouls each game. The problem is that a couple times today, the refs failed to call fouls even when he got seriously hacked.

[jv001]

We moved the ball extremely well in the first half. Well most of the first half. Have to admit Jon does get hacked and no calls. Kelly looked more poised, played pretty good defense and looked good on his shots. He really looks for the low post man when he's in the game. Kyle did not shoot the ball really well, but he does so much for this team. He and Jon are our two best players.
Lance once again had a very good all around game. His shot looked much better and it went in. Free throw shooting is excellent. We still have many things we can improve on and I think we will. We have not seen anywhere near the level of play that Mason is capable of bringing. I like the ceiling of this team. Go Duke!

[jv001]

I just noticed that the unc vs. Kentucky board has 8 pages and this one about our Duke Blue Devils has only 4. Something is wrong with that picture. It seems we are more concerned about the tarholes than a good win from our own team. I know it's always a good weekend when Duke wins and unc loses, but I put more emphasis on the Duke win. Go Duke!

[moonpie23]

i'll take the blame for that...i did a lot of updating, so it wound up being more pages...

:(

sorry, got carried away....

[Duke4life92]

I know St. Johns is an athletic team, but that has to get better. Also, Miles can not regress into the bench again like he did last year. He has to play with confidence and has to play with some sort of scoring mentality when he gets the ball.

I would just like to see miles get to stay on the court longer periods of time than what happened today,damn,everytime i turned my head he and mason were out.Get some steady time on the court and lets see what they can do with it.Hard to get into a good flow when your heading to the bench every few minutes.But in K i trust,i know he'll get thru to the them in his own way :D JMHO.

[jipops]

The Johnnies were essentially without 2 starters. One of which, Mason Jr. is probably their best offensive player. Yet we still allowed them to shoot 50%. I always love getting a win but this left me a bit uncomfortable. We had an excellent defensive stretch in the 1st half, but the 2nd half D wasn't very good at all.

[Acymetric]

I just noticed that the unc vs. Kentucky board has 8 pages and this one about our Duke Blue Devils has only 4. Something is wrong with that picture. It seems we are more concerned about the tarholes than a good win from our own team. I know it's always a good weekend when Duke wins and unc loses, but I put more emphasis on the Duke win. Go Duke!


i'll take the blame for that...i did a lot of updating, so it wound up being more pages...

:(

sorry, got carried away....

Well, to really compare thread sizes you'd have to compare the in-game AND postgame threads for St. Johns, since thats what the unc-KY thread basically was. Not really an issue.

[Kedsy]

Well, it looks like Duke has moved into first place in the always competitive Big East.

Regarding Lance and Z, both have been excellent two of the past three games. It's a shame when they play well, people act like it's the exception and when they don't play as well people act like it's the rule. Brian Zoubek has had four outstanding games out of eight (UNCG, Charlotte, UConn, St. John's), and two or three of those games were against good competition. The funny thing is, if you only take Z's bad games, he's still averaging 10 points and 18.5 rebounds per 40 minutes (and I repeat, those are his per 40 figures from his four "bad" games). When Kyle has an off game, we all give him the benefit of the doubt and say it's an off game. We should do the same for the other players. So I will: Wisconsin was simply an off game for Lance and Z. In general, they are both playing very well this season.

To the poster who said Mason Plumlee didn't show anything today, I thought he looked very good in his limited minutes. I think it's easy to see why the buzz on him is so positive.

Regarding Andre, to me it looked like after the Wisconsin game he felt pressure today to be "the shooter." He didn't set his feet nearly as well as he has and he looked like he was rushing his shot a little. He doesn't appear to be quite ready to have his minutes expanded, and IMO K is doing the best thing letting him get his feet wet in smaller doses (sorry about the mixed metaphor there). Hopefully by the end of the year he'll be able to consistently be the player we all hope he can be, both offensively and defensively.

Finally, I liked how after St. John's fought it down to four, the team buckled down and immediately pushed it back up to 16. We haven't always done that consistently the past few years.

[roywhite]

Regarding Andre, to me it looked like after the Wisconsin game he felt pressure today to be "the shooter." He didn't set his feet nearly as well as he has and he looked like he was rushing his shot a little. He doesn't appear to be quite ready to have his minutes expanded, and IMO K is doing the best thing letting him get his feet wet in smaller doses (sorry about the mixed metaphor there). Hopefully by the end of the year he'll be able to consistently be the player we all hope he can be, both offensively and defensively.



When I looked for Andre when Duke had the ball, he was often camped out in one corner, and teams have certainly learned not to leave him alone. So in a way it effectively opens the court somewhat. But, yeah, for all his considerable talent, his game still has a ways to go on both the offensive and defensive end.

[Saratoga2]

At some level Duke got outplayed- but this was an odd game. Duke played well in the first half got to a big lead- survived a comeback- got it back up to 16 again and then coasted in. K also said they were tired mentally. The kids are coming off two road trips- and are in the midst of the last week of classes going into finals. Lots going on. K looks to be trying things- looking at combinations - trying to get his big guys involved more. This team is a work in progress. The good news they are not peaking early. They will get out of rhythm in the next 10 days- and not play a good team for 2 weeks. This team has work to do- but they have potential to be good. Right now - they need to continue to tinker - get some rest and start the ACC season 1-03-10.


In his quotes following the game, coach K was reminding the fans that Duke was a developing team and that he was trying different combinations to continue that development. Obviously he also needed to win the game so he did what he thought was necessary to do that.

He started the Plumlees together, perhaps as a message to Thomas the Zoubek that they have to give more. The Plumlees got enough time so that the coaches will have film to review with them.

He put Kelly in the game for a short period, but it was enough to make the point about his maturity with the ball, his ability to feed the post and his ability to shoot from outside. What he also did is play decent defense. The coaches have the film to review and discuss with him.

He clearly went to Thomas and Zoubek with the message they needed to contribute more to the offense. Others fed them in the paint and Thomas took shots that were open. Zoubek had a decent game but still had problems with fouls in the second half.

The small lineup at the end of the game was something coach K knows they will need to use against smaller and quicker teams. It wasn't all that outstanding defensively, but they got a lot of time playing together and they will have a lot to review.

Each game and set of opponents offers coach K opportunities to develop the team and it is clear that he is taking those. I expect to see improved play from all the guys as the season wears on. Yje one guy we haven't seen a lot of is Czyz. Perhaps Gardiner Webb will provide an opportunity for him to get some PT.

[roywhite]

In his quotes following the game, coach K was reminding the fans that Duke was a developing team and that he was trying different combinations to continue that development. Obviously he also needed to win the game so he did what he thought was necessary to do that.

Each game and set of opponents offers coach K opportunities to develop the team and it is clear that he is taking those. I expect to see improved play from all the guys as the season wears on.


One of the things K has pointed out before is that during a stretch of several games and heavy travel, it's hard to get in good practice time. It is during practice that mistakes are corrected and considerable development occurs.

This team is a work in progress, more so than most editions. What will we see in January, February, etc.? Should be interesting.

[oldnavy]

This was a good win against a pretty good team. SJU came in undefeated, albeit they had not played any top tier teams. Reading K's post game comments, makes me feel better about what I saw out there, because on the face of it, I thought it was a mediocre performance. He is obviously working on different things, rotations, etc... It was clear that he wanted the bigs to get more touches at the beginning of the game for example. So I for one am going to put my trust in what he is doing and not over analyze every substitution or play call.

I do agree, that hearing Jay Bilas say those words about MP2 is encouraging. He is usually pretty critical of bigs, so if Mason has impressed him, then he must be pretty talented. We need to give him so time that's all.

Who is Madison Plumlee? I got terribly confused after the second time the announcer said that, and Bilas didn't correct him....

[Johnny Jungle]

Good game guys. I tip my cap.

Duke getting extra possessions with offensive rebounds really hurt St. John's.

In the first half I also felt Duke got away with a lot defensively (no calls). Team fouls were 9-3. In the 2nd half especially in the beginning there were a lot of no calls right away for both sides. A lot of muggin.

Duke runs a tight offense, they curl off of screens so tightly its really fun to watch. Also they are just so smart in making defenses gamble. Meaning they draw help defense they find the open man for the shot and if no help comes they take their man to the rack. I mentioned this in our pre-game that this could pose a problem and it did.

On the other end I was proud of St. John's for fighting back. They didn't give up and showed some promise for the rest of the season. I think we could finally be turning the corner in the Big East and hopefully make the NCAA tourney...thoughts? What did you think of St. John's?

[Azdukefan]

Good game guys. I tip my cap.

Duke getting extra possessions with offensive rebounds really hurt St. John's.

In the first half I also felt Duke got away with a lot defensively (no calls). Team fouls were 9-3. In the 2nd half especially in the beginning there were a lot of no calls right away for both sides. A lot of muggin.

Duke runs a tight offense, they curl off of screens so tightly its really fun to watch. Also they are just so smart in making defenses gamble. Meaning they draw help defense they find the open man for the shot and if no help comes they take their man to the rack. I mentioned this in our pre-game that this could pose a problem and it did.

On the other end I was proud of St. John's for fighting back. They didn't give up and showed some promise for the rest of the season. I think we could finally be turning the corner in the Big East and hopefully make the NCAA tourney...thoughts? What did you think of St. John's?

I think St. John's played with poise and never let up. Cameron is the toughest place to play in the country and you guys did yourself justice. I would not be completely surprised if they are playing in the NCAA tournament. The program is being turned in the right direction. I know I will be pulling for you guys against the uConvicts. Good luck and keep doing it the right way!

[devilboomer]

If I see one person on this thread ask for more minutes for Dawkins... I will really laugh at them. He got over 20 minutes while struggling to prevent penetration in man defense, and contributing almost nothing on offense. He is a hell of a shooter, but frankly his impact is minimal when he isn't open for three. He averages 20 mpg on the season.

I don't think that Dawkins needs more minutes, as his PT is perfect right now: rotate in for Jon or Nolan in the first half to give them a breather, close out the first and second halves as one of the 5 "closers."

I do think that Dawkins needs to be more involved in the offense, however. Coach K draws nothing up for the kid, despite the fact that he is a lights out three-point shooter. You say he's ineffective when he's not open? Then run some screens for the kid. It doesn't matter anyway, since there were many many possessions today where he was open for a shot and Jon/Nolan ignored him -- Nolan's dunk being the most egregious example. I just don't get that -- even if he didn't see Dawkins for the pass he clearly saw him when he decided to dunk. Get the kid an easy dunk to get him hyped up and get his confidence about.

As for Dawkins deficiencies, I must vehemently agree. While he lacks lateral quickness, he is doing a lot of the little things well. Rebounding well for his possession, weak-side blocks, running the break, etc...

[Native]

What was up with the Crazies tonight? It was the first time I've heard "you suck" prominently after player introductions and "bull$#!t" multiple times. This was the first home game I've been able to go to this season; has this been a trend or did it just start today?

Getting on topic, I'll give St. John's some credit. Their two guards matched up very well with ours, and one could shoot the lights out of the gym.

LT and Zoubs had great games, and it was good to see them rebound after the Wisconsin loss. Interior passing was much improved - Zoubs kept the ball OFF the floor and there were a few times when Lance dished it to Z in the post. That's the kind of play we need to have consistently to compete with top-ranked teams.

Scheyer and Singler, were, well, Scheyer and Singler.

Dawkins got PT, but he seemed very inactive when he was on the floor. He tended to camp out in the corner a lot, which opened up the defense as they had to honor his 3 point shooting, but he was otherwise usually uninvolved in the offense. I don't know if this was K's strategy or Dawkins', but we could always use some more 3 pointers!

[Saratoga2]

What was up with the Crazies tonight? It was the first time I've heard "you suck" prominently after player introductions and "bull$#!t" multiple times. This was the first home game I've been able to go to this season; has this been a trend or did it just start today?

Getting on topic, I'll give St. John's some credit. Their two guards matched up very well with ours, and one could shoot the lights out of the gym.

LT and Zoubs had great games, and it was good to see them rebound after the Wisconsin loss. Interior passing was much improved - Zoubs kept the ball OFF the floor and there were a few times when Lance dished it to Z in the post. That's the kind of play we need to have consistently to compete with top-ranked teams.

Scheyer and Singler, were, well, Scheyer and Singler.

Dawkins got PT, but he seemed very inactive when he was on the floor. He tended to camp out in the corner a lot, which opened up the defense as they had to honor his 3 point shooting, but he was otherwise usually uninvolved in the offense. I don't know if this was K's strategy or Dawkins', but we could always use some more 3 pointers!

I thought Dawkins was running through the interior quite a bit in an effort to get open. He didn't get rewarded for his effort, but to be fair about it St Johns tried to cover him and he had very few open looks. They will come if he continues to make the effort.

[Kedsy]

On the other end I was proud of St. John's for fighting back. They didn't give up and showed some promise for the rest of the season. I think we could finally be turning the corner in the Big East and hopefully make the NCAA tourney...thoughts? What did you think of St. John's?

They certainly didn't give up, and that's a good sign. I thought they gambled a lot on defense and for portions of the game looked a little lost on offense (although at other times they looked really good on offense). Overall, once St. John's gets back up to full strength, they should be at worst a middle of the pack Big East team and probably a bit better. That's often good enough for a bid, but I don't have a sufficient feel for how the Big East is going to shake out this year to say it with any conviction.

[davekay1971]

This was a good win against a pretty good team. SJU came in undefeated, albeit they had not played any top tier teams. Reading K's post game comments, makes me feel better about what I saw out there, because on the face of it, I thought it was a mediocre performance. He is obviously working on different things, rotations, etc... It was clear that he wanted the bigs to get more touches at the beginning of the game for example. So I for one am going to put my trust in what he is doing and not over analyze every substitution or play call.

I do agree, that hearing Jay Bilas say those words about MP2 is encouraging. He is usually pretty critical of bigs, so if Mason has impressed him, then he must be pretty talented. We need to give him so time that's all.

Who is Madison Plumlee? I got terribly confused after the second time the announcer said that, and Bilas didn't correct him....

Madison is Miles', Mason's, and Marshall's little sister. She's 14 now and can really shoot the rock, and is apparently capable of dunking if she eats her Wheaties in the morning. Should be coming to the Duke women's team one day. Likes Miley Cyrus but thinks the Jonas Brothers are soooooo 2008. There are also the younger sisters Megan and Melissa, twins, currently age 12, dominating the junior high teams and reportedly considering the Duke women's team also. The family dog, Max, catches frisbees really well.

[bird]

Perhaps the most interesting thing for me was Coack K going to the small line up in winning time, and sticking with it until the end without his usual frequent substitutions. Andre go on the floor and stayed on the floor, despite lack of scoring and at least one pretty flagrant defensive lapse. Put together with Coach K's post game comments, methinks that Coach K is working on something, and that something was Andre.

From my perspective in the stands, without the benefit of TV commentary and stats, Lance played about as well as he ever has at Duke. And Scheyer remains a pure pleasure to watch in his Battier-like way.

One thing I really think the comments on this board consistently overlook is the role of matchups on our subjective perception on an individual's players performance game to game. The outstanding example is Z. His ability to be effective is largely -- I would argue almost totally -- dependent on matchups. He can be a reasonably effective contributor with the right matchup, particularly on the defensive end. With a deeper team up front, we may be seeing a marked rotation in playing time based on the matchups, game to game.

[Native]

I thought Dawkins was running through the interior quite a bit in an effort to get open. He didn't get rewarded for his effort, but to be fair about it St Johns tried to cover him and he had very few open looks. They will come if he continues to make the effort.

It seemed to me like he worked his butt off to get open in the early going and then sort of resolved to camp out in the corner in the later stages of the game, particularly in the early minutes of the second half. I agree with you though, and it definitely caused St. John's to honor him over there.

[chadlee989]

I like some other posters here think that the Plumlee brothers need to be on the floor more than 16 min combined. I think that most everyone agrees that they will be better by the end of the year. So my point is if we all expect them to get better then we should be playing them more now. Even if it means that they struggle some now and have bad games. Let them have a few bad games here and there so that come March and hopefully April they can be big time players for us. I have heard some posters say that MP1 is not giving us anything on the offensive end. Why dont we throw more alley oops to Miles like we did to McBob? When McBob was at Duke we threw at least 4 or 5 a game up to him. Why cant we do this with Miles and even Mason? They both have the ability to go up and get the pass. With all that said i just think that they give us more than what LT and Z give us. However, dont get me wrong i am not saying that i want them to get all of the mins. I dont see how Lance deserves to get almost double the min they get combined.

As for Ryan Kelly i think he is a really good player for this team and i like the min he got tonight. I hope that he gets these kind of mins every game for the rest of the season. He can really help us. Although i think his defense is a little bit better than what some on this board give him credit for. Just to bad he has a lot of players ahead of him.

[SMO]

I like some other posters here think that the Plumlee brothers need to be on the floor more than 16 min combined. I think that most everyone agrees that they will be better by the end of the year. So my point is if we all expect them to get better then we should be playing them more now. Even if it means that they struggle some now and have bad games. Let them have a few bad games here and there so that come March and hopefully April they can be big time players for us. I have heard some posters say that MP1 is not giving us anything on the offensive end. Why dont we throw more alley oops to Miles like we did to McBob? When McBob was at Duke we threw at least 4 or 5 a game up to him. Why cant we do this with Miles and even Mason? They both have the ability to go up and get the pass. With all that said i just think that they give us more than what LT and Z give us. However, dont get me wrong i am not saying that i want them to get all of the mins. I dont see how Lance deserves to get almost double the min they get combined.

As for Ryan Kelly i think he is a really good player for this team and i like the min he got tonight. I hope that he gets these kind of mins every game for the rest of the season. He can really help us. Although i think his defense is a little bit better than what some on this board give him credit for. Just to bad he has a lot of players ahead of him.

I always enjoy the suggestion that playing guys that should be playing well as opposed to playing the guys that actually are playing well is a good coaching move. Is that one in the Handy Pocket Reference?

[airowe]

I always enjoy the suggestion that playing guys that should be playing well as opposed to playing the guys that actually are playing well is a good coaching move. Is that one in the Handy Pocket Reference?

1A-D

http://www.duke.edu/~bct1/images/DBRHPR7.1asPDF.pdf

[gumbomoop]

Scheyer remains a pure pleasure to watch in his Battier-like way.

Tentative, even reluctant, comparisons of JS to SB have been appearing on these boards for awhile. I've made them myself, tentatively and cautiously.

After reviewing [tape reply] 3 JS plays against a solid SJ team, I'm becoming a bit less reluctant and cautious. Specifically: (1) At the 14:10 mark of 1st half, the tip-pass to KS for lay-in. This was actually the least impressive of the 3. (2) At 2:25 mark of 1st half, a flying block-from-behind on driver. The "unathletic" JS is.... pretty athletic. (3) Another flying flick-block-from-behind at 0:45 mark near game end.

Many posters have undoubtedly heard and read more K-quotes than I, so my data-set is admittedly limited, but my favorite telling K-quote is: "Just watch Shane. For a few possessions, don't look at anything else. Just watch Shane." I personally can recommend the same re JS. Doing so, one can see his court-sense in action. He moves, looks, moves, calculates, moves, gestures, anticipates [e.g., steals bounce passes into lane to an opposing player not his own man].

Maybe JS's court sense isn't as unusual as I think - and I just don't watch dozens of games a week, so my Duke-blue glasses may be fogging my judgment. So for those who really are familiar with far more teams/players, who are this year's, or recent, court-savvy players?

JWJ [Just watch Jon.]

[ncexnyc]

I like some other posters here think that the Plumlee brothers need to be on the floor more than 16 min combined. I think that most everyone agrees that they will be better by the end of the year. So my point is if we all expect them to get better then we should be playing them more now. Even if it means that they struggle some now and have bad games. Let them have a few bad games here and there so that come March and hopefully April they can be big time players for us. I have heard some posters say that MP1 is not giving us anything on the offensive end. Why dont we throw more alley oops to Miles like we did to McBob? When McBob was at Duke we threw at least 4 or 5 a game up to him. Why cant we do this with Miles and even Mason? They both have the ability to go up and get the pass. With all that said i just think that they give us more than what LT and Z give us. However, dont get me wrong i am not saying that i want them to get all of the mins. I dont see how Lance deserves to get almost double the min they get combined.

As for Ryan Kelly i think he is a really good player for this team and i like the min he got tonight. I hope that he gets these kind of mins every game for the rest of the season. He can really help us. Although i think his defense is a little bit better than what some on this board give him credit for. Just to bad he has a lot of players ahead of him.

It's unfortunate a couple of posters have taken the low road and responded to your post by being snarky.

I can see where you're coming from with your post. You view the early season games as a learning experience for players and you believe that those less developed individuals with more upside than those currently playing should be getting more minutes.

I guess it's a very fine line that Coach K has to walk in considering playing time, working for a team win, and player development. I think that based on his history, he is more inclined to the idea that learning comes in practice and if you absorb what he and his staff are putting out, it shows in the games.

I'll also say that the two players who you felt shouldn't be getting as much playing time as they did are still growing as players. Both have shown flashes that they can be significant contributors and while they are both Seniors we have to remember that not all players develop at the same pace. I'm sure Coach K wanted them to have big games and hopefully take that forward for the remainder of the season.

Again, it's a fine line and I can see both sides of this issue.

[NSDukeFan]

Tentative, even reluctant, comparisons of JS to SB have been appearing on these boards for awhile. I've made them myself, tentatively and cautiously.

After reviewing [tape reply] 3 JS plays against a solid SJ team, I'm becoming a bit less reluctant and cautious. Specifically: (1) At the 14:10 mark of 1st half, the tip-pass to KS for lay-in. This was actually the least impressive of the 3. (2) At 2:25 mark of 1st half, a flying block-from-behind on driver. The "unathletic" JS is.... pretty athletic. (3) Another flying flick-block-from-behind at 0:45 mark near game end.

Many posters have undoubtedly heard and read more K-quotes than I, so my data-set is admittedly limited, but my favorite telling K-quote is: "Just watch Shane. For a few possessions, don't look at anything else. Just watch Shane." I personally can recommend the same re JS. Doing so, one can see his court-sense in action. He moves, looks, moves, calculates, moves, gestures, anticipates [e.g., steals bounce passes into lane to an opposing player not his own man].

Maybe JS's court sense isn't as unusual as I think - and I just don't watch dozens of games a week, so my Duke-blue glasses may be fogging my judgment. So for those who really are familiar with far more teams/players, who are this year's, or recent, court-savvy players?

JWJ [Just watch Jon.]

The other savvy play I remember is Jon quickly turning around to defend a player after a score and forcing a violation by the passer on the end line.

[mkirsh]

I like some other posters here think that the Plumlee brothers need to be on the floor more than 16 min combined. I think that most everyone agrees that they will be better by the end of the year. So my point is if we all expect them to get better then we should be playing them more now. Even if it means that they struggle some now and have bad games. Let them have a few bad games here and there so that come March and hopefully April they can be big time players for us. I have heard some posters say that MP1 is not giving us anything on the offensive end. Why dont we throw more alley oops to Miles like we did to McBob? When McBob was at Duke we threw at least 4 or 5 a game up to him. Why cant we do this with Miles and even Mason? They both have the ability to go up and get the pass. With all that said i just think that they give us more than what LT and Z give us. However, dont get me wrong i am not saying that i want them to get all of the mins. I dont see how Lance deserves to get almost double the min they get combined.

I think Coach K was trying to develop them specifically by NOT playing them and sending a message. I think he was unhappy with what he saw (in my opinion sloppy D, not hustling up and down the floor, a few silly back-court turnovers) and wanted them to sit and watch LT and Z. In addition, Mason looks like he is still working his way into basketball shape - every time TV shows a close up he seems to be breathing pretty heavy, so that may have factored in as well.

[SMO]

It's unfortunate a couple of posters have taken the low road and responded to your post by being snarky.

I can see where you're coming from with your post. You view the early season games as a learning experience for players and you believe that those less developed individuals with more upside than those currently playing should be getting more minutes.

I guess it's a very fine line that Coach K has to walk in considering playing time, working for a team win, and player development. I think that based on his history, he is more inclined to the idea that learning comes in practice and if you absorb what he and his staff are putting out, it shows in the games.

I'll also say that the two players who you felt shouldn't be getting as much playing time as they did are still growing as players. Both have shown flashes that they can be significant contributors and while they are both Seniors we have to remember that not all players develop at the same pace. I'm sure Coach K wanted them to have big games and hopefully take that forward for the remainder of the season.

Again, it's a fine line and I can see both sides of this issue.

At the risk of sounding snarky, the OP seemed to suggest there's a certain minutes threshold specific players need based on future expectations of their play. That makes no sense. While I agree that there's a fine line between using minutes as punishment v. development, I think the main purpose Coach K tries to achieve in dividing minutes is to win. Secondly, it's to reward guys that are playing well like LT the other night.

As Jumbo (I think) has suggested, limited minutes for some guys might not be a bad thing even in their minds depending on the situation. For example, would you want to be exposed in a game if you couldn't switch effectively on D due to your limited practice time? Wouldn't you rather correct the problem in practice then get more minutes? I think people on this board often forget how much development can come outside of game time.

Of course, arguing against anything in the Handy Pocket Reference is usually like chasing the wind. We'll almost certainly rinse & repeat this one throughout the season.

[camion]

14h :(

[Greg_Newton]

At the risk of sounding snarky, the OP seemed to suggest there's a certain minutes threshold specific players need based on future expectations of their play. That makes no sense. While I agree that there's a fine line between using minutes as punishment v. development, I think the main purpose Coach K tries to achieve in dividing minutes is to win. Secondly, it's to reward guys that are playing well like LT the other night.

For the sake of discussion, I'll bite. I would suggest a player needs to consistently get a minimum 5-10 minutes in order to develop the game confidence and comfort level necessary to be an effective rotation player. That's just enough up-and-down where you're not over-thinking every movement and start to settle into the flow of the game.

I would also suggest that a young player needs a consistent 15-20 minutes in order to develop into a major factor and threat on the team (i.e. a player that other teams worry about). If you're not on floor close to half of the time, it's hard to feel like you're an important part of the game, and you generally aren't able to relax and get into enough of a rhythm where you're playing to impose your will and beat your opponents rather than to just stay on the floor.

This obviously varies a little depending on the player and how involved he is when he is in... my 1.A wish is that we would run more offense through the post. However, 1.B is that by ACC time, Miles and Mason are getting at least 15-20 minutes and Ryan is getting his 5-10. I'm certainly reserving judgment for now, as I don't know what goes on behind the scenes or what K's motivational strategies are, but that's my theory!

Curious... do you all disagree? If so, what are examples of past players who have fit the above descriptions without ever consistently meeting that minute threshold?

(Side note: Kelly's current 11+ mpg is misleading. He averaged 16 mpg in four blowouts, but is averaging 4.5 mpg (including a DNP) in our 4 "real" games. Hopefully that number doesn't continue to creep down.)

[camion]

How about Elliot Williams (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/logs.php?playerid=2735&season=2008-09) from last year. From most accounts he worked his tail off in practice while getting minimal game minutes during the first half of the ACC season to become a starter and major contributor the last part of the season.

I don't necessarily disagree that game time helps, but I don't think it is necessary and sufficient. Ideally a player will be a net positive when on the floor, getting game experience and improving while helping the team. The question arises when a player is a net drain while on the court. What is the appropriate sacrifice of team performance that should be made during a game to help a player improve? Assumed in this is that the player will improve and that game time is needed for this improvement. There are several things to be balanced here and it isn't simple. I guess that's why it keeps coming up.

[SMO]

Curious... do you all disagree? If so, what are examples of past players who have fit the above descriptions without ever consistently meeting that minute threshold?



I think your question is a Catch-22. If guys aren't getting enough minutes to be a major factor, guess what! They're not going to be a factor. There's no denying guys need to play a certain amount in a game to influence its outcome. My argument is that guys do not become a factor in the game simply by the number of minutes they play. Moreover, the OP's suggestion is that if guys should be good down the road they should play more now. That really doesn't flow logically.

[Greg_Newton]

How about Elliot Williams (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/logs.php?playerid=2735&season=2008-09) from last year. From most accounts he worked his tail off in practice while getting minimal game minutes during the first half of the ACC season to become a starter and major contributor the last part of the season.

I don't necessarily disagree that game time helps, but I don't think it is necessary and sufficient. Ideally a player will be a net positive when on the floor, getting game experience and improving while helping the team. The question arises when a player is a net drain while on the court. What is the appropriate sacrifice of team performance that should be made during a game to help a player improve? Assumed in this is that the player will improve and that game time is needed for this improvement. There are several things to be balanced here and it isn't simple. I guess that's why it keeps coming up.

To respond to the EW example, he averaged 16.6 mpg and got 14+ minutes in 19 games before the tournament, which is more than half of our games. Therefore, I would argue that he did not become a major factor by March ""without ever consistently meeting that minutes threshold". I suppose I'm cheating a little by including the 14's, but it's not an exact science!:rolleyes: I certainly agree with the points in your second paragraph, except for the bold part, which leads me to...


I think your question is a Catch-22. If guys aren't getting enough minutes to be a major factor, guess what! They're not going to be a factor. There's no denying guys need to play a certain amount in a game to influence its outcome. My argument is that guys do not become a factor in the game simply by the number of minutes they play. Moreover, the OP's suggestion is that if guys should be good down the road they should play more now. That really doesn't flow logically.

Agreed that game time is certainly not in itself sufficient for developing difference-makers in March, but I would argue it is one of several necessary elements. To amend my question to make it a little more specific and clear... have we ever had a player be a major factor in March that never consistently got 15-20 mpg during most of the season?

I ask because there seems to be a pretty broad consensus that for us to be a real contender and to reach this specific team's potential in March, we need Mason and/or Miles to be major factor(s). From what I've seen from them in the preseason and season, it's not really a question of talent or whether they can become such... the tools are there, it's more a matter of working out the kinks and "rookie mistakes", and developing a comfort level with the type of intensity and disciplined play you see on the big stage.

So, should a player play simply because we think he'll be good in the future? No. But should a player play because we need him to be a big factor this year and he has shown the potential become one? I would argue yes, especially when this player generally seems to help the team more than hurt it when he's on the floor (as Miles has, IMO).

(Again, this is not a condemnation of anything K has done so far, just my hopes for what we generally see as the season progresses).

[chadlee989]

At the risk of sounding snarky, the OP seemed to suggest there's a certain minutes threshold specific players need based on future expectations of their play. That makes no sense. While I agree that there's a fine line between using minutes as punishment v. development, I think the main purpose Coach K tries to achieve in dividing minutes is to win. Secondly, it's to reward guys that are playing well like LT the other night.

As Jumbo (I think) has suggested, limited minutes for some guys might not be a bad thing even in their minds depending on the situation. For example, would you want to be exposed in a game if you couldn't switch effectively on D due to your limited practice time? Wouldn't you rather correct the problem in practice then get more minutes? I think people on this board often forget how much development can come outside of game time.

Of course, arguing against anything in the Handy Pocket Reference is usually like chasing the wind. We'll almost certainly rinse & repeat this one throughout the season.

I am not saying that they should get a certain number of min in every game. I agree from time to time that it will vary based on matchups. However, I agree with what Greg Newton has posted to help us in the future they need to be getting at least 15 min each. Miles more so than Mason b/c of the wrist right now.

I can not speak for you but i played basketball in school. I never once wanted to sit out and learn from the bench. I would think that most all D-1 level basketball players would want to be on the floor. As far as the end of the game goes i agree with you put your best man on the floor.

[airowe]

I am not saying that they should get a certain number of min in every game. I agree from time to time that it will vary based on matchups. However, I agree with what Greg Newton has posted to help us in the future they need to be getting at least 15 min each. Miles more so than Mason b/c of the wrist right now.

I can not speak for you but i played basketball in school. I never once wanted to sit out and learn from the bench. I would think that most all D-1 level basketball players would want to be on the floor. As far as the end of the game goes i agree with you put your best man on the floor.

Miles is averaging over 20 mpg and I'm fairly sure Mason will be once he's caught up to the speed of the game and he's fully recovered.

I have a feeling this will all be a moot point once Mason's healthy.

[Kedsy]

To respond to the EW example, he averaged 16.6 mpg and got 14+ minutes in 19 games before the tournament, which is more than half of our games. Therefore, I would argue that he did not become a major factor by March ""without ever consistently meeting that minutes threshold". I suppose I'm cheating a little by including the 14's, but it's not an exact science!:rolleyes:

Not sure why you think "before the tournament" is the key with regards to Elliot. He played in November and December during blowouts and against lesser teams. In the three "tough" Nov/Dec games he averaged just over 5 minutes. Then, when January rolled around he went the first 10 games averaging 6.6 minutes, with 6 of the 10 games playing 5 minutes or less. Then, all of a sudden he was thrust into the starting lineup and thrived.

This is a perfect example of someone who wasn't given meaningful minutes until he earned it in practice and he was able to play well despite his lack of "development" during games. Notwithstanding that his insertion into the lineup happened six games before the ACC tourney, I can't think of a better instance which seemingly refutes the idea that players need close to 10mpg in order to contribute later in the season/post-season.

[J.Blink]

Not sure why you think "before the tournament" is the key with regards to Elliot. He played in November and December during blowouts and against lesser teams. In the three "tough" Nov/Dec games he averaged just over 5 minutes. Then, when January rolled around he went the first 10 games averaging 6.6 minutes, with 6 of the 10 games playing 5 minutes or less. Then, all of a sudden he was thrust into the starting lineup and thrived.

This is a perfect example of someone who wasn't given meaningful minutes until he earned it in practice and he was able to play well despite his lack of "development" during games.

I thought there were rumors starting to fly in the January timeframe that Williams was considering transferring? I had always assumed that he started to get more playing time in an effort to keep him happy and part of the team. ~shrug~ I've obviously no inside information or official statements to back that up (nor to back up that he earned it in practice). I just remember thinking it was suspicious (though welcome!) at the time.