Redshirts and Duke Football

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

In the distant past (mid-1980s) it was the policy of the University not to allow redshirting of players except for medical reasons. So, when other football programs where in essence providing a 5 year experience, Duke was pushing a 4 year program. Did that policy change and if so, when? At one point Duke Administration was pretty adamant about this. Steve Sloan and Steve Spurrier had to find rather, er um, creative ways to redshirt players and even then not many were redshirted as freshmen. However, it seems like a lot players are being redshirted under Coach Cut? Is Duke now presenting itself as a 5 year football program with the blessing of the Administration? If so, very cool.

Thanks.

GO DUKE!

[1999ballboy]

We're not an exclusively 4 or 5-year program. Non-medical redshirts are as common as dirt in D-1 football, to the point where they've become the norm. Duke probably still plays more true freshmen than most programs. I've actually heard several Duke fans complain that we don't redshirt enough, because the idea is to bulk guys up in the weight room and prepare them on the practice field for a year, and lots of programs do that exclusively. For the most part though, only guys who are really ready and needed like Thad Lewis and Conner Vernon don't redshirt.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Coach Cutcliffe didn't start red-shirting at Duke. It's been going on a while. To get an idea of how much Duke has utilized this strategy this year, take a look at this year's roster. http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1843&SPSID=22667

[DU82]

Hi,

In the distant past (mid-1980s) it was the policy of the University not to allow redshirting of players except for medical reasons. So, when other football programs where in essence providing a 5 year experience, Duke was pushing a 4 year program. Did that policy change and if so, when? At one point Duke Administration was pretty adamant about this. Steve Sloan and Steve Spurrier had to find rather, er um, creative ways to redshirt players and even then not many were redshirted as freshmen. However, it seems like a lot players are being redshirted under Coach Cut? Is Duke now presenting itself as a 5 year football program with the blessing of the Administration? If so, very cool.

Thanks.

GO DUKE!

To answer your specific question, IIRC it started sometime during the Goldsmith error.

Sloan, Spurrier and I believe Wilson all were under the no-redshirt-other-than-medical internal rule.

[Kewlswim]

To answer your specific question, IIRC it started sometime during the Goldsmith error.

Sloan, Spurrier and I believe Wilson all were under the no-redshirt-other-than-medical internal rule.

Thanks. That's what I wanted to know.

Follow up question: Is it because the administration suddenly saw the light on redshirting or did it just happen, ie a coach started doing it and the administration looked the other way?

I write this because, without a doubt, when I was at Duke the administration was entrenched in the belief that redshirting without a medical reason was a bad thing to do. I am not sure why they thought that, but they sure did. I guess somehow redshirting was somehow seen as anti-academic. I think the opposite is true, since redshirting lets a kid get used to school and take more classes s/he (it is possible some of the non-revenue redshirt too) needs toward a successful academic experience/career.

[arnie]

Thanks. That's what I wanted to know.

Follow up question: Is it because the administration suddenly saw the light on redshirting or did it just happen, ie a coach started doing it and the administration looked the other way?

I write this because, without a doubt, when I was at Duke the administration was entrenched in the belief that redshirting without a medical reason was a bad thing to do. I am not sure why they thought that, but they sure did. I guess somehow redshirting was somehow seen as anti-academic. I think the opposite is true, since redshirting lets a kid get used to school and take more classes s/he (it is possible some of the non-revenue redshirt too) needs toward a successful academic experience/career.

Duke seemed to take the position those years that the players should complete their education in 4 years - particularly since most of the student body did this. I don't think impact on competiveness of the football team was considered important. We've always been slow to accept change in college football - and in fact, I'm pleasantly surprised that we pay Cut and his assistants competitive salaries.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

To be successful in Div 1 football, a team has to redshirt players as much as possible. That's one of the things that led to Wake Forest's success under Jim Grobe. Coach Cut is a big believer in redshirt juniors and seniors leading the team to the promised land.

BTW, I have it on very good authority that today was a HUGE day for Duke Football recruiting, especially on the offensive line :cool::D:D:D That's all I can say.

[SharkD]

To answer your specific question, IIRC it started sometime during the Goldsmith error.

Sloan, Spurrier and I believe Wilson all were under the no-redshirt-other-than-medical internal rule.

I wonder if that means that it was a policy of Tom Butters...?

[devildeac]

To be successful in Div 1 football, a team has to redshirt players as much as possible. That's one of the things that led to Wake Forest's success under Jim Grobe. Coach Cut is a big believer in redshirt juniors and seniors leading the team to the promised land.

BTW, I have it on very good authority that today was a HUGE day for Duke Football recruiting, especially on the offensive line :cool::D:D:D That's all I can say.

I heard the very same thing...

[Acymetric]

To be successful in Div 1 football, a team has to redshirt players as much as possible. That's one of the things that led to Wake Forest's success under Jim Grobe. Coach Cut is a big believer in redshirt juniors and seniors leading the team to the promised land.

BTW, I have it on very good authority that today was a HUGE day for Duke Football recruiting, especially on the offensive line :cool::D:D:D That's all I can say.

Ozzie, I think I saw you, and briefly joined your conversation with another gentleman about the particulars of the recruiting day (and a bit about Cincy winning by 1). Younger kid with bad hair in a black jacket? If not, then I heard (and saw) the same thing as you from a different source. Interesting news, to be sure!

[DukeSince'77]

So when do we get to hear the great news?? Did the 2 current ND commits visit this weekend?

[sagegrouse]

I wonder if that means that it was a policy of Tom Butters...?

Hey guys! It's economics and finance as well. It costs more if players redshirt and scholarships run for five years, unless someone can educate me on how everything still must fit under the 82 scholarship limit.

Fred Goldsmith lost his key assistants after his great 1994 season IIRC when Duke refused to match the salaries other programs were offering. And that had a bearing on his later lack of success.

The faltering in the football program post-1965 was driven by an academic belief (prevalent in a lot places other than Duke) that big-time athletics were incompatible with a first-rate academic institution. I have a note below on why this may be a fallacy.

But a main problem has been that the University was not willing to pay for a first-rate program until the past few years -- facilities in the past ten years, highly competitive salaries for coaches the last two years.

Duke football, even in the 50s and 60s was a dodgy financial proposition. I remember hearing from the coaches and AD staff in my era (Class of Mullins -- actually, he was class president!) about the difficulty in Duke, UNC and State drawing from such a small market. For that reason Duke played only four home games a year (out of ten). The Devils were good draws in the Big Ten, the West Coast and elsewhere.

[Note on Academic "Fallacy:" All Ivy League schools recruit athletes in nearly every sport who would not make it in as regular students. To control abuse, the Ivy League actually has a minimum standard, which is referenced on the Ivy League web site. I don't know how this compares to the standard Duke applies, but the point is that there are compromises all over the place, and I find the hypocrisy in the Ivy league ("no athletic scholarships" -- hah!) to be harmful and cynical. Many people on this Board know of athletes or their families who have had tragi-comic experiences involving Ivy League athletic recruiting.

[The other factor that I think made a big difference in thinking was Jim Plunkett; he won the Heisman at Stanford in 1970 (over a couple of guys named Manning and Theisman) and led Stanford to a Rose Bowl victory over Ohio State on Jan. 1, 1971. The next year the "Indians" defeated Michigan in the Rose Bowl under a different QB. Here was Stanford, with academic standards at least as high at Duke showing it was able to compete with the USC's and Ohio States in college football. By the 1970s, although I was no longer around Duke regularly, I sensed that the sports de-emphasis trend had lost some steam.

[This stuff is just my opinion, and others may have better informed views.]

sagegrouse

[DU82]

I wonder if that means that it was a policy of Tom Butters...?

I hadn't thought of that before, but it makes sense given the approximate timing.

[Acymetric]

It costs more if players redshirt and scholarships run for five years, unless someone can educate me on how everything still must fit under the 82 scholarship limit.

Well, its 85 not 82. And you have 85 scholarships per year (unless you lose someone unexpectedly). Whether any of them are redshirts or not makes no difference. Money is shelled out for 85 scholarships per year. Set cost (well, varying with tuition cost). There could be a lot of reasons redshirting players wasn't allowed, but money ain't one.

[bill brill]

the info about football grants is accurate. the allowed total is 85. few schools actually have that many because of unexpected attrition. duke redshirted 20 players this year. some will not become productive and will graduate on time, i.e., four years. five squad members on this team doing just that. I am assuming that the cost difference is negligble. the five-years players most often graduate after first semester, thus four and a half years. but if they weren't here, they would be replaced by additional players. by the way, thad lewis is graduating this month, three and a half years. for what it's worth, my view is that u can't win without redshirting. I am certain that duke prohibited the practice until quite recently.