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Duke79UNLV77
12-02-2009, 11:36 PM
Singler, Nolan, and Scheyer are largely known factors, although each will have his off nights, Dawkins can flat-out shoot. Miles has become a solid rebounder and shot-blocker and will improve on finishing and avoiding fouls. We'll get burned by some quick guards all year, but we have some limitations to work with sans EWill.

The big key is Mason. God love 'em, LT and Z just have their limits. Every year we get a few double figure, active games from LT, and then a string of 2point, 2 rebound efforts. He got the ball in good position in the 1st half, spun away from the basket, and then went up weak and got blocked. He got a pass in good position in the 2nd half and dropped it. Z has become a good rebounder, but hasn't progressed in putting the biscuit in the basket. LT never needs to dribble more than once, and Z never needs to try to guard someone outside the paint.

Mason needs to emerge to take us from a team probably not quite as good last year's model to a potential championship contender. Time will tell.

1Devil
12-02-2009, 11:45 PM
Exactly right. Mason needs to take about half of Lance's minutes and half of Z's.

BlueintheFace
12-03-2009, 12:01 AM
the key to what? open jumpers and man advantages for the offense?

Sorry, just had to say it. He wasn't ready for this. It showed. No big deal. Plenty of time to improve.

roywhite
12-03-2009, 12:03 AM
Yeah, I agree Mason's development is key.

Actually, I saw glimpses tonight (in these circumstances with the injury and lost time, couldn't expect anything really) of how he moves well and can outreach guys for a rebound, and hold on to the ball. Mason can hedge out on defense and get back so much better than Zoubs.

This team is a work in progress, more so than most years. I think the final product will be quite good.

loran16
12-03-2009, 12:09 AM
Err, Nolan is a known factor?

REALLY?!

Listen, i love Nolan, and he had a great first half last year. And he has the potential to be a truely great player. But he faded strongly down the stretch last year, and not just cuz of his injury.

But he's never put it all together for a whole season. And we came into this season thinking he could be even better.

Smith's a veteran on this team, indeed. But he's not a known factor and has a lot of things still to show and to prove this year. So lets' not put it all on the Frosh just yet.

Poincaré
12-03-2009, 12:32 AM
What kind of player is Mason and how can he help this team?

From what little I've read, he's a good rebounder who create jump shots for himself after receiving the ball somewhere between the low post and the high post. I've also read that he doesn't really have a post game to speak of.

Based on that very limited information I have, I'd say that he could improve the following

team defense (better mobility than Zoubek and taller than Thomas)
offensive rebounding (great hops)
pick-and-pop offense (ability to hit FT-line extended jumper)


Can anyone who has seen Mason play (in high school, summer leagues, pick-up, video game hoops, whatever), correct/add/elaborate on this?

Lord Ash
12-03-2009, 08:26 AM
I really hope Mason gets into game shape soon... I cannot help but feel that our current bigs (with the exception of Miles) just cannot contribute in any meaningful way... they cannot score the basketball consistently, they cannot defend mobile players, they cannot defend consistently on the pick and roll, and they cannot defend bigs who can move outside. When they are called on to perform a lot of these roles, they often pick up fouls. These problems really cause limitations for our guards, who cannot legitimately look inside for scoring and therefore have an awful lot of pressure on them, both in terms of defenders knowing they are our only option and in terms of providing the majority of the scoring for the team. I really feel like once Mason is healthy and ready, he and Miles will be a big step up in terms of big men who are able to contribute.

whereinthehellami
12-03-2009, 08:32 AM
I hope he is the key to being able to do the simple things. Like be in the right place at the right time. And corralling contested/loose balls.

CDu
12-03-2009, 09:09 AM
Err, Nolan is a known factor?

REALLY?!

Listen, i love Nolan, and he had a great first half last year. And he has the potential to be a truely great player. But he faded strongly down the stretch last year, and not just cuz of his injury.

But he's never put it all together for a whole season. And we came into this season thinking he could be even better.

Smith's a veteran on this team, indeed. But he's not a known factor and has a lot of things still to show and to prove this year. So lets' not put it all on the Frosh just yet.

You beat me to the punch. I think that Singler and Scheyer are our known commodities. I think both Plumlees AND Smith are the keys, and all are unknowns still.

Smith has gotten a lot of hype this year, and had two great performances to open his season. But against stronger competition in more hostile environments, he's not looked good. I think good things can/will come from him this year, but he's definitely not a known yet.

But I do agree with the original poster that Mason will be a huge key. His height, skills, and athleticism are going to be needed at the 4 and 5 on both ends of the floor. Hopefully he can overcome the injury setback and be a real presence by the time ACC play rolls around.

Devilsfan
12-03-2009, 09:26 AM
Our cubboard is far from bare. As the freshmen, Mason and Dawkins get more experience we should be a very tough out at tournament time this year. Next year we have a shooter and a true point guard coming and the coaches know how much we could use an ahletic slasher (SF) like the one we just missed out on. Hope we can complete the puzzle and return to going deep in the tournament every year. I'm betting on our staff getting us what we need, seeing how good they have done so far.

Wander
12-03-2009, 11:24 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The biggest thing this team has going for it in comparison to last year's team is that it doesn't need to start Lance or Z. They just bring too little to the table on offense. I'm looking forward to the point where we start both Plumlees.

DukieInBrasil
12-03-2009, 01:46 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The biggest thing this team has going for it in comparison to last year's team is that it doesn't need to start Lance or Z. They just bring too little to the table on offense. I'm looking forward to the point where we start both Plumlees.

I would have bristled a little bit at this comment earlier, but after seeing that both LT and Z are still doing what they have always done (tho Z is doing a much better job rebounding so far) I have to say that you are right.
Having two athletic big men who can both jump really high and pass and have a bit of touch with the ball is a big advantage over having to start either/both LT/Z. Bringing LT and Z off the bench will be a huge plus for us since both have tons of experience and both have certain positives. Their positives are not big enough however to have them start and still have championship expectations.

Classof06
12-03-2009, 02:20 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The biggest thing this team has going for it in comparison to last year's team is that it doesn't need to start Lance or Z. They just bring too little to the table on offense. I'm looking forward to the point where we start both Plumlees.

Co-sign. The day Duke starts Miles and Mason is when we can really start to determine this team's prospects come March.

I also agree with those who believe that Nolan is not yet a known commodity; he's getting there but he's not there yet. Nolan's ascension and Dawkins' development are the two biggest things to watch outside the Brothers Plumlee.

G man
12-03-2009, 03:15 PM
If Mason is only as good as Miles I think that would be great! I think Miles has played very well this year. If Mason ends up being more productive than Miles then we will be in very good shape. It's hard to get after Mason after coming off the injury. I think most would agree we saw more of him than we thought we would last night! I think he will get better and hopefully give us 8-12 points in the paint a night. If Mason and Miles can average 16-24 points between the two of them it would be monstrous in helping this team make a big run.

jv001
12-03-2009, 03:22 PM
If Mason is only as good as Miles I think that would be great! I think Miles has played very well this year. If Mason ends up being more productive than Miles then we will be in very good shape. It's hard to get after Mason after coming off the injury. I think most would agree we saw more of him than we thought we would last night! I think he will get better and hopefully give us 8-12 points in the paint a night. If Mason and Miles can average 16-24 points between the two of them it would be monstrous in helping this team make a big run.

I would take 8 pts per game and 5 rbs per game each from the two Plumlees. That coupled with good man to man defense from them and I will be satisfied. And add that to Andre's contribution we would be headed in the right direction. Go Duke!

Tim1515
12-03-2009, 03:39 PM
People fall in love with potential don't they? It wasn't long ago that people were hailing Nolan as our savior at PG because of his potential.

Mason looked bad last night. I'm not saying he doesn't have potential...he absolutely does and he has a chance to be really good i'm sure...but last night...he was bad.

Took a 3 point shot that didn't look comfortable. Next time he got the ball he didn't even consider it. IMO...if you're not willing to shoot a second time if you miss...you weren't ready the first time. He turned the ball over and most importantly he didn't look like he wanted to mix it up physically on the boards or on defense.

I'm hoping it was the wrist...and very well could be. Maybe in a week he's boxing out and attacking the boards aggressively.

But...from what I actually saw...as opposed to what i hoped to see. He isn't quite ready and may not be this year. I honestly felt Duke had a better chance of winning last night if Kelly got Mason's minutes...but who knows.

Troublemaker
12-03-2009, 04:50 PM
People fall in love with potential don't they? It wasn't long ago that people were hailing Nolan as our savior at PG because of his potential.

Mason looked bad last night. I'm not saying he doesn't have potential...he absolutely does and he has a chance to be really good i'm sure...but last night...he was bad.

Took a 3 point shot that didn't look comfortable. Next time he got the ball he didn't even consider it. IMO...if you're not willing to shoot a second time if you miss...you weren't ready the first time. He turned the ball over and most importantly he didn't look like he wanted to mix it up physically on the boards or on defense.

I'm hoping it was the wrist...and very well could be. Maybe in a week he's boxing out and attacking the boards aggressively.

But...from what I actually saw...as opposed to what i hoped to see. He isn't quite ready and may not be this year. I honestly felt Duke had a better chance of winning last night if Kelly got Mason's minutes...but who knows.

Dude. First game back.

ChicagoCrazy84
12-03-2009, 07:23 PM
Mason and Miles need to become involved offensively, plain and simple. Our guards (and Coach K) can not be afraid to get the ball down low to Miles. I don't know if Mason is ready to become an interior presence offensively, but even if he is not, he has to be aggressive taking it to the hoop or not hesitating to hit the 15 ft. jumper. If these guys' offensive games are limited to offensive rebounds and alley-oop dunks, we're not going to be very successful. I love their potential and I think they can be very very good players in the ACC. If they do not become key components to this team offensively, someone on the staff must be held accountable. With that said though, I think that they will become valuable offensively.

MChambers
12-03-2009, 07:52 PM
Our guards (and Coach K) can not be afraid to get the ball down low to Miles.

* * *

If they do not become key components to this team offensively, someone on the staff must be held accountable. With that said though, I think that they will become valuable offensively.

Someone "must" be held accountable? Really? Look, if you want to say that developing some credible low post game is critical to Duke's success this year, I absolutely agree and welcome your comments.

When your comments take on a harsher tone, you lose me and I suspect other readers here.

Sandman
12-03-2009, 10:42 PM
I've only seen Mason play those few minutes against Wisc. and that's no indicator. How are his offensive skills? Can he finish when he gets the ball near the basket (unlike poor Z - it's almost painful to watch Z struggle so)? Does he have a mid-range shot? If his man leaves him, can he hit the 3 at a reasonable %. In other words, what will he give us that we do not already have with Z and LT?

Boston Dukie
12-03-2009, 10:48 PM
I think all the pieces are in place, but it is going to take time

Singler and Scheyer are where they need to be, but no one else is there yet

Nolan - flashes, but not consistent
Dawkins - great shooter, but a freshman with a 1 dimensional game so far
Miles - has the potential and getting better, not there yet
Mason - honestly, he looked terrible, but given what the staff and his team have said about him, I expect him to be very good someday

So you have 4 guys that are question marks

The good news, think how good this group will look next year and then add in Seth Curry, the 3 recruits and hopefully Roscoe Smith (man, that Harriosn Barnes thing sucked big time)

So I am just watching with low expectations, trying to enjoy the team get better, hoping the Plumlee brothers take all of Zoubek's and a chunk of LT's minutes, praying Singler comes back, and hoping they land Roscoe Smith

Next year will be there year!!

verga
12-03-2009, 11:14 PM
Mason will bring an attitude to the team, he is cocky and it shows in his play. He is a great weak side defender and has a capable shot. He is an above average rebounder but above all else he brings a winners mentality.

Kedsy
12-04-2009, 12:09 AM
Mason will bring an attitude to the team, he is cocky and it shows in his play. He is a great weak side defender and has a capable shot. He is an above average rebounder but above all else he brings a winners mentality.

The one thing that excited me from the NC pro-am league over the summer was the fact that when Jon and Mason played together their team won literally every game. When either of them didn't play, their team didn't win, despite the retention and addition of several capable players. Individual performances in a league like that don't matter, but winning always tells.

Tim1515
12-04-2009, 08:33 AM
Dude. First game back.

Right...and i said that is very likely. But he looked scared to be aggressive on defense and around the rim. As i said...hopefully it is the wrist...but we don't know that...all we know is what we saw...everything else is just hoping for potential right now.

slower
12-04-2009, 08:56 AM
He isn't quite ready and may not be this year.

May not be ready THIS YEAR? You base this on a few minutes in his first game back from an injury?

airowe
12-04-2009, 09:52 AM
Next year will be there year!!

So, you're completely done with this year already?

See ya next year BostonDukie!

chrisheery
12-04-2009, 10:05 AM
I'd agree that Mason is the key mainly due to his versatility. If he can hit open 3's or even 12-15 footers, he will stretch the defense. He also appears to have the strength (my wife commented on how large he was during the Wisconsin game) to play inside. We know he can get rebounds, block shots, and seems to move well laterally. We have also been told that his ball-handling and passing ability is very good. His game would be the ideal compliment to our 4 other starters. It is not so much that he can or will put up huge numbers, it is the threat of having a guy that can play inside or outside on offense and defense that will keep the other team honest. Right now, his role if filled by either a lumbering huge guy and a weak guy who can't shoot. Both can't finish inside and neither can shoot outside. Neither are good ball-handlers, which makes them very easy to guard. Both can be taken advantage of by different matchups on D as well. Mason's versatility should allow him to be better in all situations. Both Zoub and Lance will have their role when matchups dictate, which should allow this team to grow and thrive.

hood7
12-04-2009, 10:13 AM
Guys, it wasn't Mason's "first game back" ... It was his FIRST GAME period. The fact that he was coming off an injury should account for rustiness on top of the fact that he'd never played a real college game, let alone against a very solid Badgers team in their hostile environment. Geez.

Sixthman
12-04-2009, 10:14 AM
I agree with the idea that we will be a great team if Miles and Mason play up to their potential. In this world, not only will they contribute at a high level on offense and defense (which it seems clear they have the potential to do), but the attention they draw will make it easier for the other guys to produce. That having been said, this thread seems to be comparing the actual game performance of Z and LT to the potential of Miles and Mason. The reality is that in games, Miles has done some things better than Z and Z has done some things better than Miles. Mason, who we have not seen much, has yet to demonstrate in a game the capacity to have the game that LT had against UCONN. While it seems likely that because we know LT and Z, we know that we cannot be a GREAT team with them each getting 25 minutes a game, I think we do not yet know that we can be materially better with Miles and Mason getting the lions share of the minutes. In fact, it may depend upon the oponent. The good news is that the month of December will answer this question and it will be fun finding out.

camion
12-04-2009, 10:16 AM
May not be ready THIS YEAR? You base this on a few minutes in his first game back from an injury?

Luckily this year is 2009 and most of the season will be played in 2010. Ah, good times. :)

CDu
12-04-2009, 10:22 AM
Guys, it wasn't Mason's "first game back" ... It was his FIRST GAME period. The fact that he was coming off an injury should account for rustiness on top of the fact that he'd never played a real college game, let alone against a very solid Badgers team in their hostile environment. Geez.

Exactly. There were a ton of things working against a good game from Plumlee:

1. He's only 3 weeks removed from fracturing his wrist. He's surely still working to get back physically and psychologically.
2. He's missed substantial playing time with his teammates, which means it'll take him some time to get back in to game flow.
3. He's never played an official college basketball game, which means it will take him time to get accustomed to the speed and physicality of the game.
4. He was playing against a veteran, big, disciplined team, which can be hard on a freshmen to begin with.
5. He was playing in a very hostile environment, which is always tough.

Expecting big things from him right away was being overly optimistic and unrealistic. Hopefully he can use the month of December to regain his basketball strength, get into the flow of the game, and gain confidence.

slower
12-04-2009, 10:25 AM
Luckily this year is 2009 and most of the season will be played in 2010. Ah, good times. :)

Saved by a technicality :D

smklin
12-04-2009, 10:32 AM
I would agree with others on the thread that the key to the season is the play of the Plumlee brothers. It's a known fact that they are athletes, can block shots, and play pretty solid defense. What remains to be seen is if they can avoid turnovers and contribute offensively.

I think a problem with this thread, though, is that it takes too much forgranted. Sure, the Plumlees are the key, but that's ASSUMING that Scheyer and Smith perform the way we expect them to, and, judging by last game, that is NOT a safe assumption. Other than Dawkins showing up in a big way for the last 10 minutes of the second half, Duke had one offensive threat against Wisconsin: Singler.

The Plumlees are the key to the season, but only if Scheyer and Smith can produce a caliber of play that many expect of them.

Kedsy
12-04-2009, 10:37 AM
I think a problem with this thread, though, is that it takes too much forgranted. Sure, the Plumlees are the key, but that's ASSUMING that Scheyer and Smith perform the way we expect them to, and, judging by last game, that is NOT a safe assumption. Other than Dawkins showing up in a big way for the last 10 minutes of the second half, Duke had one offensive threat against Wisconsin: Singler.

This gave me a little chuckle. After the UConn game, some people were saying that we know exactly what we have in Jon, but what's with Kyle? Will he ever truly adjust to playing on the wing?

Now, Kyle is a constant but who knows what we'll get with Jon and Nolan?

I think Jumbo's perspective comments are applicable here.

smklin
12-04-2009, 10:47 AM
This gave me a little chuckle. After the UConn game, some people were saying that we know exactly what we have in Jon, but what's with Kyle? Will he ever truly adjust to playing on the wing?

Now, Kyle is a constant but who knows what we'll get with Jon and Nolan?

I think Jumbo's perspective comments are applicable here.

I, like you, read and appreciated Jumbo's post. I thought it was a great point and needed to be said. However, posts shouldn't be scoffed at every time they point out something negative.

Clearly, players are going to have on-nights and off-nights. Singler exploded against Wisconsin, but hadn't had a stand-out game before that. Scheyer had been playing relatively well, but did not against the Badgers. What I'm saying is that the Plumlee brothers are the key to the season ONLY if we can count on the consistency of Scheyer, Smith, and Singler. I don't think that's a too subjective or negative comment.

BlueDevilCorvette!
12-04-2009, 11:01 AM
The season wasn't won or lost simply by this one game. One game doesn't define a players worth to the team for the remainder of the season. This was one game, one loss and that's it. Why must everything be over-analyzed to the 10th degree...geez!

Kedsy
12-04-2009, 11:05 AM
I, like you, read and appreciated Jumbo's post. I thought it was a great point and needed to be said. However, posts shouldn't be scoffed at every time they point out something negative.

Clearly, players are going to have on-nights and off-nights. Singler exploded against Wisconsin, but hadn't had a stand-out game before that. Scheyer had been playing relatively well, but did not against the Badgers. What I'm saying is that the Plumlee brothers are the key to the season ONLY if we can count on the consistency of Scheyer, Smith, and Singler. I don't think that's a too subjective or negative comment.

Sorry if my post was too "scoffy" (and I also apologize for inventing a word). When you suggested that assuming Jon and Nolan will be consistent is unwarranted but implied that Kyle is consistently rock solid, you were clearly talking about one game. I found that funny, considering how many people were saying exactly the opposite (at least with regards to Jon and Kyle) just a few days ago.

Jon Scheyer is one of the most consistent players ever to play for Duke and even in his off game against Wisconsin he scored 10 points and had a 4 to 1 assist/turnover ratio. (And for some guards that's a really good game.) Kyle shot poorly in New York, but his overall performance was pretty good, IMO.

That said, your basic point that we expect and need consistency from the big three is valid. But that doesn't mean they'll never have a bad game.

In my opinion, the consistency we need is that all three of the big three can't have a bad game on the same day. If two of them are strong, we'll probably win the game unless the supporting players are terrible. If only one of them has a good game, we can play with most teams but some of the supporting players need to step up (and this is where the "Mason is the key" talk is coming from). If all three are on, our chance of winning is very high; if they all have off games, we'll have a tough time coming up with a W.

So, if that's what you meant, we're in total agreement.

smklin
12-04-2009, 11:10 AM
That said, your basic point that we expect and need consistency from the big three is valid. But that doesn't mean they'll never have a bad game.

In my opinion, the consistency we need is that all three of the big three can't have a bad game on the same day. If two of them are strong, we'll probably win the game unless the supporting players are terrible. If only one of them has a good game, we can play with most teams but some of the supporting players need to step up (and this is where the "Mason is the key" talk is coming from). If all three are on, our chance of winning is very high; if they all have off games, we'll have a tough time coming up with a W.

So, if that's what you meant, we're in total agreement.

Oh, absolutely! If Duke can run multiple sets through 1-3 big men on a consistent basis, it would do volumes for our offense. Not only would it provide those guys with confidence and the team with a few much-needed easy buckets. It would also free up our guards immeasurably (and, consequently, make them more able to acheive that consistency we've been talking about!).

Tim1515
12-04-2009, 11:30 AM
May not be ready THIS YEAR? You base this on a few minutes in his first game back from an injury?

The few minutes he got does make me a little nervous that many expect WAY too much from this kid. Miles couldn't get on the court last year and it wasn't due to a lack of talent. The staff obviously felt he had a lot to learn with the system and how to use his talent at the college level...not making mistakes and staying out of foul trouble while also being aggressive. It is very possible Mason goes through some of the same struggles.

Duke4life92
12-04-2009, 09:55 PM
Guys, it wasn't Mason's "first game back" ... It was his FIRST GAME period. The fact that he was coming off an injury should account for rustiness on top of the fact that he'd never played a real college game, let alone against a very solid Badgers team in their hostile environment. Geez.
It actually was his "1st game back" from the injury if you count all the pre-season practices and the exhibition games he played in.I know i saw him against findlay and he looked real athletic with tons of potential but i do see where your coming from with "1st game period" :D.

ACCBBallFan
12-06-2009, 09:59 PM
Good move by coach K to give Mason a few minutes even though he is not fully recovered nor in game shape yet. Got the jitters out of the way for when Duke plays again a couple weeks after exams.

As much as Mason's individual play, I think Miles will play much better when his brother is back.

I still think Duke fares best with Z and Miles sharing the post duties and Mason/Lance sharing the PF role, but against teams where 4 guard lineup (counting Singler as guard now) is in order, Mason will be a good complement at center spot.

Though team came back vs St. John;s pretty much just the upperclassmen and not much out of either Plumlee or Dawkis or Kelly.

So use the Gardner Webb type of games to give them some whiskers.

Bluedog
12-07-2009, 12:48 AM
Mason Plumlee talks after the St. John's game:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke/audio/6559414/

Some reporter's opinion:

Duke just had a great win and Mason seriously had a look on his face like someone just kicked his dog. He was visibly demoralized. I mean he was really bent out of shape. He could hardly give a reporter a five-word response. I can see how some people can take it the wrong play, but I can cut him some slack.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/6559645/

Not sure if any real insight can be gained from this, just thought I'd relay the interview/info...

Kewlswim
12-07-2009, 03:12 AM
Mason Plumlee talks after the St. John's game:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke/audio/6559414/

Some reporter's opinion:


http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/6559645/

Not sure if any real insight can be gained from this, just thought I'd relay the interview/info...

Hi,

The reporter mentions that maybe Mason was "bent out of shape" because he didn't particularly play well. Don't we want players who are really conscientious of their play? Don't we want players who don't want to sit on the bench, but want to do what is needed to play and help the Devils win? I guess I heard a young kid who probably wants to play more and isn't really smooth when it comes to interviews. If Mason isn't playing two months from now and his answers are like this, there will probably be cause for concern. Let's make sure not to make a mountain out of a mole hill. I think finals are also coming up soon, maybe he had a big college final on his mind or his high school sweetheart decided he was too far from her to continue the relationship and so his answers were pith? Maybe some Senior Coed wouldn't go out with him and he is bummed about that? Maybe Coach K or other Coaches yelled at him and he is processing it? Give him a break.

Mason reminds me of that guy who fought Rocky from Russia. He just seems to have so much more of a presence on the court than either Zoubs or Miles. I can't wait to have him settle into the rotation and let him do what he can do. I wonder if he might not be thinking a bit too much out there. Remember it is important to be quick, but not in a hurry (Thank You Coach Wooden).

GO DUKE!

Lord Ash
12-07-2009, 07:07 AM
Is it possible there was a somber mood in the room given the news we are now hearing about Andre Dawkins? Are they roommates, given that they are both freshmen?

Memphis Devil
12-07-2009, 09:30 AM
Why is it again that people keep hoping Mason can consistently hit the 3 point shot? I, for one, think that if Mason is consistenly launching 3's, regardless of whether or not he makes them, will spell trouble for us. The last thing we need is to have 4 of the 5 guys on the court looking to pull up at the 3 point line. We have lived and died by the 3 (more dying than living when it comes to post season success) for the last 5 years or so. We need to develop a consistent inside scoring threat and start to work the offense from the inside-out (whether through interior passing or dribble penetration) not the outside-in. Both Mason and Miles have tremendous potential as inside/mid-range scoring threats. They are capable of more than just the occassional alley-oop and put back. We don't have the guard speed to consistently beat people off of the dribble for runners and lay-ups. There needs to be more balance on the offensive end of the court. To use a football analogy, it's like we've abandoned the run and all we do is throw the ball.

roywhite
12-07-2009, 09:41 AM
Why is it again that people keep hoping Mason can consistently hit the 3 point shot? I, for one, think that if Mason is consistenly launching 3's, regardless of whether or not he makes them, will spell trouble for us. The last thing we need is to have 4 of the 5 guys on the court looking to pull up at the 3 point line. We have lived and died by the 3 (more dying than living when it comes to post season success) for the last 5 years or so. We need to develop a consistent inside scoring threat and start to work the offense from the inside-out (whether through interior passing or dribble penetration) not the outside-in. Both Mason and Miles have tremendous potential as inside/mid-range scoring threats. They are capable of more than just the occassional alley-oop and put back. We don't have the guard speed to consistently beat people off of the dribble for runners and lay-ups. There needs to be more balance on the offensive end of the court. To use a football analogy, it's like we've abandoned the run and all we do is throw the ball.

I agree that we'd like to see Mason's offensive game primarily within 10-15 feet of the basket. Like to see him develop some post moves and he can be a serious threat for alley-oop dunks off passes from Scheyer and others.

That said, the occasional outside shot by a big man is a nice feature. It tends to draw out the defense and create additional space for the offense. The Wisconsin big men made some outside shots. Going back, remember how Christian Laettner often got good looks from 3-point range, and hit a high percentage.

The issue is whether Mason can make a decent percentage of those shots. Haven't seen him enough to know.

Channing
12-07-2009, 10:38 AM
even though he didnt play much, it looked like Mason has "it." He looks comfortable with the ball, he looks to attack the rim, and he had no problem backing a guy down and taking a little baby hook (even if it did rim out).

I really hope he gets his sea legs soon, because I think he can do some really nice things for Duke, and give us a true inside option to complement all we have outside.

MChambers
12-07-2009, 11:02 AM
In the little bit I saw, I thought Mason looked very talented. I really liked it when he grabbed a rebound, and looked for a long outlet. He threw it away, but I liked the aggressive play.

Bluedog
12-07-2009, 11:50 AM
Is it possible there was a somber mood in the room given the news we are now hearing about Andre Dawkins? Are they roommates, given that they are both freshmen?

Yes, that is a definite possibility. Mason, Andre, and Kelly share a triple.

Cockabeau
12-07-2009, 11:55 AM
I think K's strategy is to use our frontcourt depth to our advantage. For Duke to take full advantage of our depth in the frontline the big men must become more active. LT and Z have been doing this. Whether its jumping for the lose ball,fouling hard and just being physical.

The Plumlees, especially Miles, MUST become more active and especially more physical to wear down our opponents.

NYDukie
12-07-2009, 01:20 PM
In general, we will just need to be patient with Mason. He has only played two games so and it takes time to get the game legs back along with getting use to the flow which his teammates are in already. Bottom line is that Mason is behind the curve right now. I think it is reasonable to say a better analysis of his game and impact is to be had come middle to the later part of January after he has another 6-8 games in hand.

Overall, you can see the potential both in athleticism and skill set. For the team's purposes, it is probably better he spends his time from the foul line in, providing a mid game source of offense, both scoring in the high and low post and passing.

flyingdutchdevil
12-07-2009, 02:14 PM
Have people forgotten that Mason is a freshman? Or better yet, a freshman with injury issues?

I am personally not expecting much from Mason for the next month or so, simply because he has no experience whatsoever and first needs to get comfortable on the court. Freshman aren't expected to contribute right away. Singler and Scheyer were anomolies. Mason isn't Carmelo, as much as we hope him to be.

DukieInBrasil
12-07-2009, 03:03 PM
since Mason has returned Duke has played pretty mediocre, granted they were both pretty good teams. Mason has not played very much and he is still not up to speed, so i don't think it's appropriate to make any corellations, yet. Hopefully, Mason can get the feel soon and make some big-time contributions, we're gonna need it.

Greg_Newton
12-07-2009, 04:01 PM
Mason reminds me of that guy who fought Rocky from Russia. He just seems to have so much more of a presence on the court than either Zoubs or Miles. I can't wait to have him settle into the rotation and let him do what he can do. I wonder if he might not be thinking a bit too much out there. Remember it is important to be quick, but not in a hurry (Thank You Coach Wooden).

GO DUKE!

Haha, he does have quite a presence, doesn't he? I kind of like his borderline-excessive precociousness... for some reason, fair or not, even his silly plays don't bother me as much as those of other players.

For example, when poor ol' Lance or Z overhedges a screen and ends up pressuring a backpedaling guard 25' from the hoop, my gut is going "Oh lord, what in the WORLD are you doing???" Yet when Mason starts doing the same thing, it's more like "Alright fella... let's see what you can do here." :cool:

I'm not exactly sure why, he just seems like he's always got something up his sleeve. I'm looking forward to him getting healthy and really adjusting to the college game!

camion
12-07-2009, 04:03 PM
I keep thinking that Mason is the Keymaster and Miles is the Gatekeeper.

Gozer???

ChicagoCrazy84
12-07-2009, 04:29 PM
Have people forgotten that Mason is a freshman? Or better yet, a freshman with injury issues?

I am personally not expecting much from Mason for the next month or so, simply because he has no experience whatsoever and first needs to get comfortable on the court. Freshman aren't expected to contribute right away. Singler and Scheyer were anomolies. Mason isn't Carmelo, as much as we hope him to be.


Really? Because he is a freshman? I am expecting Mason to start contributing by the Gardner Webb game, period. If he doesn't? Fine, we go on to the next one and hope for the best. To say you're not expecting much cause he is a freshman though? Come on. Being a freshman does not give you a pass to go for 2 pts and 2 rebs in 10-15 minutes of play, especially when youre a McDonald's All American and 1st team All State player from NC. Im not saying he has been dissappointing because he literally just started practicing again, but we recruited the kid to be a difference maker and I expect him to be just that, and soon. I am not expecting him to put up Beasley type numbers obviously, but he has plenty of experience coming from Christ School, playing AAU, and playing summer ball in Durham and playing very good competition, so that does not excuse ineffectiveness. He'll make mistakes like everyone else, but he should still get his PT and numbers.

sagegrouse
12-07-2009, 04:47 PM
Really? Because he is a freshman? I am expecting Mason to start contributing by the Gardner Webb game, period. If he doesn't? Fine, we go on to the next one and hope for the best. To say you're not expecting much cause he is a freshman though? Come on. Being a freshman does not give you a pass to go for 2 pts and 2 rebs in 10-15 minutes of play, especially when youre a McDonald's All American and 1st team All State player from NC. Im not saying he has been dissappointing because he literally just started practicing again, but we recruited the kid to be a difference maker and I expect him to be just that, and soon. I am not expecting him to put up Beasley type numbers obviously, but he has plenty of experience coming from Christ School, playing AAU, and playing summer ball in Durham and playing very good competition, so that does not excuse ineffectiveness. He'll make mistakes like everyone else, but he should still get his PT and numbers.

I can't tell if this is totally tongue in cheek or dead serious. But if the latter, what is going on???

Here is another player's first three games:

Mins. Pts. Rebs.
Ky. 6 2 0
Citadel 15 5 7
E. Car. 13 4 2
Ave. 11.3 3.7 3.0

Some guy named Laettner.

sagegrouse

jv001
12-07-2009, 04:57 PM
Really? Because he is a freshman? I am expecting Mason to start contributing by the Gardner Webb game, period. If he doesn't? Fine, we go on to the next one and hope for the best. To say you're not expecting much cause he is a freshman though? Come on. Being a freshman does not give you a pass to go for 2 pts and 2 rebs in 10-15 minutes of play, especially when youre a McDonald's All American and 1st team All State player from NC. Im not saying he has been dissappointing because he literally just started practicing again, but we recruited the kid to be a difference maker and I expect him to be just that, and soon. I am not expecting him to put up Beasley type numbers obviously, but he has plenty of experience coming from Christ School, playing AAU, and playing summer ball in Durham and playing very good competition, so that does not excuse ineffectiveness. He'll make mistakes like everyone else, but he should still get his PT and numbers.

Scrataching my head over this one. Being a freshman, just back from injury, playing in the system and in limited minutes because he's not yet a difference maker in games he is labeled as ineffective. We have 3 players that pretty much have controlled the ball by Coach K's design. In his mind the ball has to be in their hands for Duke to be successful and I'm not disagreeing with a HOF coach. Please let Mason get back into game form. Go Duke!

Tim1515
12-07-2009, 06:29 PM
Scrataching my head over this one. Being a freshman, just back from injury, playing in the system and in limited minutes because he's not yet a difference maker in games he is labeled as ineffective. We have 3 players that pretty much have controlled the ball by Coach K's design. In his mind the ball has to be in their hands for Duke to be successful and I'm not disagreeing with a HOF coach. Please let Mason get back into game form. Go Duke!

I agree...and to be honest when we recruited him i don't think he was ranked in the top 50. Mason has a ton of potential...but so did Miles last year. Mason was named a starter before the season...but so was Miles last year.

Some players take more time to adapt to the college game then others...Mason "might" be one of those guys. To expect wonders from this kid is setting him up for failure.

Josh McRoberts was supposed to be a difference maker too as a freshman...#1 in his class according to some. He averaged 8.7 and 5.3 in 24.5 minutes as a freshman and grew into himself as a sophomore. Other then the attitude he was great as a sophomore...i personally think it will take Mason just as long to grow into his game.

Hermy-own
12-07-2009, 07:48 PM
I don't know why people are already losing some hope on this board. While DBR was ridiculously optimistic about Mason's impact while we were waiting for him to come back from injury, now people are equally ridiculous in their disappointment.

The Truth: WAIT AND SEE. Why do we make such hasty judgements? He has had barely 20 minutes of playing time, only gone to a couple practices, and people are disappointed in him? Personally, I'm disappointed that he didn't get to play more, but I can understand that he simply wasn't ready with so little practice.

I am extremely optimistic about him. As long as he keeps attacking, just like Dawkins, I saw a great drive from the free throw line, I saw some great post moves, and general all around athleticism. In terms of offensive skills, he has already shown a lot. I'm excited to see him! As for the interview, now that is a bit worrying. I hope he feels more optimistic and happy by the next game.

ChicagoCrazy84
12-07-2009, 08:38 PM
I may have overreacted a little bit, but I'll stand by my opinion that being a freshman does not automatically mean you are going to need time (over a month as was posted) to adjust. That was my main point. Mason is a great player and I expect him to start coming into his own. Even he thinks more of himself based on his interview.

jv001
12-07-2009, 08:45 PM
I may have overreacted a little bit, but I'll stand by my opinion that being a freshman does not automatically mean you are going to need time (over a month as was posted) to adjust. That was my main point. Mason is a great player and I expect him to start coming into his own. Even he thinks more of himself based on his interview.

Be known we don't know what played into Mason's interview. Mason's roommate, close friend and fellow basketball player, Andre Dawkins had just suffered a great loss. That was far more important than any basketball game and interview. I expect Mason is very competitive and was upset by not doing more, but I don't think that's all there was to it. Just my opinion. Go Duke!

Indoor66
12-07-2009, 08:56 PM
I may have overreacted a little bit, but I'll stand by my opinion that being a freshman does not automatically mean you are going to need time (over a month as was posted) to adjust. That was my main point. Mason is a great player and I expect him to start coming into his own. Even he thinks more of himself based on his interview.

Mason's injury caused him to lose practice time. Even if you "declare" him ready for the college game at the beginning of the year, he is not in shape to play the game today. He has to work his way back into game shape. This will take both practice time and game time. Give the kid a chance.

flyingdutchdevil
12-08-2009, 06:25 AM
The best thing about freshman is that they become sophmores.

I'm not saying that I think Mason's freshman year is going to be a disappointment - actually, I think it will be quite successful. But the way people are talking about him on this forum, he is supposed to average Durant and Beasley numbers or else he's considered a failure! (that may be a little bit of an exaggeration on my part, but you get the point). Mason needs time, and we should be patient with him. He is not going to put up 15 and 9 in the blink of an eye.

Channing
12-08-2009, 09:08 AM
I may have overreacted a little bit, but I'll stand by my opinion that being a freshman does not automatically mean you are going to need time (over a month as was posted) to adjust. That was my main point. Mason is a great player and I expect him to start coming into his own. Even he thinks more of himself based on his interview.

I dont get where the negativity comes from. I really don't. He has shown the little things that make a good player (good hands, willingness and ability to attack the rim, goot touch at the free throw line). He just hasnt put the scoring and rebounding stats together, bearing in mind he has not played much and the ball tends to be in one of the 3 S's hands. I think the idea of "moving on" or even looking to next year is ridiculous. Obviously K saw something in practice that warranted starting Mason against SJU. Personally, I am excited for Mason this year. He hasn't walked with the ball or fumbled passes, so he is right up there with the rest of our big men.

Remember what happened last time we had a big guy go off in one of his first games? (*cough* Shav *cough*)

Hermy-own
12-12-2009, 11:47 AM
I was reading the new DBP magazine, and I noticed in the section where they poll duke players about their teammates. Mason Plumlee won the title of biggest gym rat over Kyle Singler. That gets me excited. :). I know Kyle spends most of his mornings in the gym, so if Mason is beating that, it can only be good.

slower
12-16-2009, 10:52 AM
I know that last night's game isn't necessarily a yardstick for anything, but I'm just not overly concerned about Mason's production. All you have to do is watch the guy and you can see that he "has it".

I can't wait to see him play against Gonzaga and better competition, because I think he's going to show that he's the real deal. He looks angry, in a good way. It's like he knows he's been set back with his wrist injury and he knows that the skeptics have been vocal about his "development".

Watch him. He wants to block and dunk EVERYTHING, and he wants to do it with FORCE. He's still got some sweet moves when he needs them, but I think he's just like a caged tiger. And I can't wait to see him break out of his cage. :)

airowe
12-16-2009, 11:11 AM
I actually watched the first half after the second half because I had missed it last night. Mason did some really great things early in the ballgame down on the blocks. He has excellent footwork already and uses his body well to create space. His turnaround move in particular puts him in position to either pass or shoot and he does both really well. I'm excited to see how he does against bigger, more physical post guys this weekend and as he puts more muscle on that frame he will be able to make himself available for the entry pass better and be more productive down low.

His ceiling is very high and I don't think the learning curve will be very steep.

roywhite
12-16-2009, 11:16 AM
I know that last night's game isn't necessarily a yardstick for anything, but I'm just not overly concerned about Mason's production. All you have to do is watch the guy and you can see that he "has it".

I can't wait to see him play against Gonzaga and better competition, because I think he's going to show that he's the real deal. He looks angry, in a good way. It's like he knows he's been set back with his wrist injury and he knows that the skeptics have been vocal about his "development".

Watch him. He wants to block and dunk EVERYTHING, and he wants to do it with FORCE. He's still got some sweet moves when he needs them, but I think he's just like a caged tiger. And I can't wait to see him break out of his cage. :)

Agree. I'd love to hit "fast forward" and have Mason be the kind of player we think can be (even as a freshman, I think that's a double figure scorer, good passer, and serious shot blocker). But he missed significant time and has the usual freshman adjustment besides that.

My take is that K is bringing him along slowly, and will make him earn every bit of playing time (particularly when Zoubs and Lance are playing well).

Duke79UNLV77
01-20-2010, 11:51 PM
If Bilas is remotely correct, not to mention Andy Katz or whoever was the other commentator who made the same comment after seeing us practice, it's time to let Mason play 25 minutes per night consistently. Lance Thomas and Zoub are solid role players. The Plumlees need to be Plan A.

CDu
01-20-2010, 11:56 PM
If Bilas is remotely correct, not to mention Andy Katz or whoever was the other commentator who made the same comment after seeing us practice, it's time to let Mason play 25 minutes per night consistently. Lance Thomas and Zoub are solid role players. The Plumlees need to be Plan A.

It's not really possible for Mason to play 25 minutes per game consistently, because he's so frequently in foul trouble. Tonight, he picked up two quick fouls in the first half. After that, he was never really aggressive again and just never got into the flow of the game. Worse than that, the two fouls he committed early were AWFUL fouls - fouling a jumpshooter from behind.

It's not up to Coach K to hand Mason minutes. Right now, he's got to earn those minutes by being a consistent player on both ends of the floor and stop having mental mistakes. Once he shows he's ready, I think we'll see his minutes go up in a big way.

jv001
01-20-2010, 11:58 PM
But tonight Mason looked real slow on defense and getting some lose balls. Don't know if he's sore from the fall he took, but he wasn't moving very well tonight. Go Duke!