MBB: Wisconsin 73, Duke 69 Post-Game Thread

[Troublemaker]

Thoughts go here.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Better now than in the tourney right?

[jipops]

Congrats to the Badgers. The better team won tonight - better by far, no matter how close the final score was.

[HateCarolina]

My thought is that we were beaten fair and square by them; however the refs were straight up shady!!!

[FerryFor50]

Not a bad loss. Good learning experience. Wisconsin is always a solid team...

Dawkins had his coming out party, but I'm baffled why they didn't look for him at the end of the game at all and instead settled for bad shots.

[soccerstud2210]

bo has the balls to say that the refs weren't fair. what a crock. wisconsin just went up on my most hated teams list. what a moron

[moonpie23]

great game.....we had some good things showing....glad mason is back, kyle got his mojo on, and andre was MONEY...

great game..


oh....score wasn't that great

[FireOgilvie]

Great win for Wisconsin. Given what they had done earlier this year (absolutely nothing), I thought we would roll over them. They came out hot and killed us. Good for them.

[Son of Mojo]

Give them their credit--we were beaten. We had our chances but just got beaten. Learn from it and go on. Next.

[slower]

I hope we see these guys again somewhere down the road. I want Bo Ryan to have that look surgically removed from his face...and inserted into another part of his body.

[superdave]

I dont know if that half-court pass with 5 seconds left was drawn up in the previous timeout, or if it was an automatic play call, but we didnt need it. We had enough time. Too high risk.

We need to start running plays for Dawkins consistently.

Oh well, lots to learn from this one.

[chrisheery]

We were lucky to even be in that game. They shot the lights out. I know we didn't play great defense, but when a team shoots that well, sometimes you just have to tip your hat. Amazing that we got it that close. The dumb plays down the stretch hurt. We had chances, just blew them. I guess we should take encouragement that we were close at all.

[Lulu]

We might be "unathletic", but I think we had an advantage there tonight that we didn't take advantage of...

Still don't understand Smith going for 2 when were down 3 with 5 seconds left...

The long pass on that last inbound play wasn't quite necessary, was it? It wasn't like there was only 2.1 seconds left...

[burns15]

I would put a large part of this loss on K. He has a zone that works and he goes away from it in the second half when we were getting killed in man. The bench disappeared, and Dawkins did not get any touches until the last 2 minutes. The motion offense disappeared tonight and we are back to the drive and kick. We played basically 6.5 people tonight (3 s, plumlee, dawkins, thomas, and zoubek). It seems like games get close, everything that was working we go away from.

[DownEastDevil]

Best shooter sat on the bench most of the game, go figure.

[geraldsneighbor]

The last possession boggles my mind. Why we acted like there were 2 seconds left when there was 5 I have no idea.

[taiw93]

I'm disappointed about the loss but I will say this: I love this team. I think after a season-long maturation process, we will be very dangerous come tourney time. Dawkins is automatic, and I love having shotblockers on the interior.

[elvis14]

Bummer. Bad game for Jon, Nolan, and the refs.

[theAlaskanBear]

Duke got lost a lot on offense in the first half. Smith took a lot of bad shots, they didn't get anyone but Singler involved, and Scheyer really struggled.

On the positive side, with Dawkins playing like he is, he is going to force Duke to get him involved offensively earlier in the game.

[smklin]

great game for singler. we're going to need more than just him and a terrific performance by dawkins for duke to be good this year.

scheyer needs to do better. zoubek and the plumlees need to finish around the hoop. our defense needs to be MUCH better.

[soccerstud2210]

its frustrating to loose to a team that is not better.

especially when they shoot lights out like that and we make dumb mistakes down the stretch.

we didn't deserve to win and yet almost did

oh well

[dukeblue1206]

Was Kyle trying to strike out A-Rod on that inbound pass? He really put some heat on that pass. Other then that he was great. Dawkins was outstanding. Would have liked to have seen him get a look at the end. On to St. John's

[jv001]

Man as good defense we played against Uconn, we played that badly and worse tonight. Let's face it, Wisconsin deserved to win the game. We looked real sloppy at the end. I'm still trying to figure out why no one came to get the ball when Kyle threw that long pass. We had almost 5 seconds to go. Plenty of time to get it into the front court. Well Coach K has some things to work on in practice. At times we still have 3 on 5 trying to score. Somehow Dawkins has to play more mins. He showed he can handle the pressure by the way he played down the stretch. Go Duke!

[Jumbo]

Best shooter sat on the bench most of the game, go figure.

Actually, Dawkins played virtually the entire second half.

[_Gary]

I'll need to see a replay again, but at first blush I'm not gonna assign Kyle all the blame on that throw in with 5 seconds left. No one on our team wanted to come back to the ball at all and I'm sure Kyle's mental clock was ticking down and he knew he had to make a throw quickly or get called for a 5 second violation. Not sure what Jon was thinking on the play, but he did NOT help the situation at all. I thought Jon looked more discombobulated than I've seen him in a long, long time. Heck, other than Kyle and Andre, most of the other players on this team didn't live up to their billing. It was rough all the way around.

[CDu]

bo has the balls to say that the refs weren't fair. what a crock. wisconsin just went up on my most hated teams list. what a moron

You misunderstood. The reporter asked what he thought of Dawkins hitting those four threes to close the gap. He was complimenting Dawkins' shooting ability. He wasn't talking about the refs at all.

[northernduke]

Wisconsin played great team basketball -- they played as a cohesive unit -- five guys as one.

The only disheartening part of the loss was the final inbounds play for Duke. Mental lapse cost us an opportunity to win, not the game. Hard to swallow not getting a shot off, but there will be bumps along the way this season.

At least we lost to a good team and a superb coach. The bigs at Wisconsin are all solid, fundamental players.

[HateCarolina]

I don't understand a lot of what Smith did tonight...he needs to check himself...he came down towards the end of the game...dribbled around the top of the key and then jacks up a bad shot....not one single pass....it makes you wonder. Then there of course was Zoubek missing two point blank baskets in the first half....the worst part is that these will be the plays that pop into my mind tomorrow morning when I first wake up.

[geraldsneighbor]

I sort of would've liked us to look for a 3 on the trip Nolan went to the hole. When you get that late in the game down 3 they are liable to foul and it was our last trip down where we were able to run a regular set on offense.

[HB TAYLOR]

Thomas 0pts, Z 0pts, Mason P. 0pts(understandable), all our bench points came from Dawkins. If our bench continues to be sooooo nonproductive not only as far as points but minutes for Singler Scheyer and Smith its going to be a long year folks. I take back nonproductive...inconsistent.

[NSDukeFan]

Wisconsin played well and deserved to win. They are so patient on offense that when we defended the penetration well a few times, they would reset and attack later. Their lack of turnovers on offense was the key to the game I thought. They also shot quite well early on to take the lead they never relinquished. Great effort by our guys at the end and fantastic shooting by Andre.

[lordshadrock]

Thoughts go here.did that really just happen

[dukeballer2294]

Give them their credit--we were beaten. We had our chances but just got beaten. Learn from it and go on. Next.

yes thank you. no excuses learn and get better. we need to get mason in the flow and imo get kelly in the rotation as well. it was a tough environment and unfortunately we didnt come out on top. we didnt have a lead the whole game and you could tell with about 7 min left that it didnt look good for us. i wouldnt second guess k's call by putting the ball in kyles hands, unfortunately good d shut him down on the final play. btw we dont need to blame the refs we got calls so did they, i think our final tip was goal tending, again unfortunately thats how the cookie crumples and if the refs didnt see it it didnt happen

[Sixthman]

We were lucky to even be in that game. They shot the lights out. I know we didn't play great defense, but when a team shoots that well, sometimes you just have to tip your hat. Amazing that we got it that close. The dumb plays down the stretch hurt. We had chances, just blew them. I guess we should take encouragement that we were close at all.

I can't agree with the generally upbeat reaction here. We played horrible defense, and it seemed clearly to be poor play by us more than great play by them. The Badgers were patient (and many teams we'll play couldn't match them in this respect in a million years) however, we always delivered a path to the basket. We had a whole game to fix it, and did not. Both Plumlees and Dawkins appeared tonight to be not ready for big time defense. Very discouraging.

[FireOgilvie]

Coming into the game, I was hoping to see a lot of Ryan Kelly and very little Zoubek to guard their mobile big men that like to play on the perimeter. Kelly wouldn't have hurt us at all tonight. This was Zoubek's worst matchup of the year probably.

[BlueintheFace]

Questionable coaching by K and terrible execution by Kyle Singler down the stretch... no excuses.

Also, Mason wasn't ready for this.

I'll say more when I've had a chance to think more.....

[Rudy]

Looking at the final stats, they look even except for turnovers. Duke had 11 but Wisc only 4. Rebounds dead even and shooting percentanges pretty even. Defense was lax in the first half especially and this gave Wisc shooting confidence. Congrats to the Badgers, they played well and did not wilt down the stretch.

[roywhite]

Just seems like a great experience for this team. They saw what they need to work on...mainly defense (and end-of-the-game plays). The sight of fans rushing the court will remind them (and instruct the younger players) just how much other teams want to beat Duke.

Mason Plumlee can help this team a lot; he moves better (way better) than the other big guys.

Onward, guys.

[soccerstud2210]

You misunderstood. The reporter asked what he thought of Dawkins hitting those four threes to close the gap. He was complimenting Dawkins' shooting ability. He wasn't talking about the refs at all.

umm im not sure, but he said "it wasn't fair"

may have misunderstood, but didnt think so

anyways. tough loss. on to st johns. we gotta get better!

[taiw93]

C'mon guys, this team has room to GROW. I know that we looked really sloppy but that's good news in a way - in previous years the teams have been playing up to full potential early on. As Mason gets back to full health, Dre improves on D, we get more comfortable with the zone, etc, the team will only get better.

[Sixthman]

Best shooter sat on the bench most of the game, go figure.

Dawkins didn't play until we had no choice because he couldn't cover.

[summerwind03]

Hard to watch, but gives us a lot to work on. Good game by Wisconsin.

[Jumbo]

I'll need to see a replay again, but at first blush I'm not gonna assign Kyle all the blame on that throw in with 5 seconds left. No one on our team wanted to come back to the ball at all and I'm sure Kyle's mental clock was ticking down and he knew he had to make a throw quickly or get called for a 5 second violation. Not sure what Jon was thinking on the play, but he did NOT help the situation at all. I thought Jon looked more discombobulated than I've seen him in a long, long time. Heck, other than Kyle and Andre, most of the other players on this team didn't live up to their billing. It was rough all the way around.

It sure looked like it was a designed play. Scheyer came off a banana curl toward the sideline (which we do a lot in those situations). The pass just had a lot of mustard and the timing wasn't right, but at first glance, it sure look like a called play. Of course, we could easily find out from the post-game quotes that someone was supposed to come back for the ball and didn't.

[Spam Filter]

Once again, just like in the UConn game, we had a near 10 minute stretch in the 2nd half where we had 0 FGs.

Because all we are good at doing is shooting jump shots.

We don't have a breakdown guard and we don't have anybody who can score in the low post.

Which is why we have these ridiculously long offensive droughts when the jump shots aren't falling.

Unfortunately that problem cannot be fixed without personnel change.

[FerryFor50]

umm im not sure, but he said "it wasn't fair"

may have misunderstood, but didnt think so

anyways. tough loss. on to st johns. we gotta get better!

No he was definitely talking about Dawkins hitting those 3s. Regardless, a player hitting big shots has no bearing on "fairness."

[JBDuke]

Dawkins didn't play until we had no choice because he couldn't cover.

He still ended up with 22 minutes - which included most of the second half. If anyone thinks he wasn't out there much, they're sorely mistaken.

[dukebsbll14]

Gotta give a tip of the cap to Wisconsin. It seemed like everytime we cut the lead to two or three they stormed back (although they were assisted by some stupid shots) and brought it back to an 8 point game.

I hate losing. I hate losing even more to a team whose students storm the court like they've won a national championship, but they were the better team tonight and pulled the upset so they earned it. Bright spot was Andre. And it was nice to see MP2 for the first time.

As always, I will gladly wear my Duke hoodie and sweatpants to school tomorrow and take crap from all the carolina fans (my whole school). GO DUKE!!

[chrisheery]

To echo a point above, I don't understand what happened to the offense based on ball movement, motion off the ball, reading the defense and hi-low. We NEVER throw the ball to our big guys in the post. We have them out on the perimeter half of the offensive set and three of them (MP1, Lance, Zoub) would never and should never attempt a shot from there. We became obsessed with one on one play and we played right into Wisconsin's hands.

Also agree with the above post that this could be a very dangerous team if they develop as they should by tournament time. However, if they don't keep their heads against Wisconsin and stick to what has been talked about all off-season, I don't know how we are going to progress.

Dre Dawk might need a start at some point. I don't care how bad people think his defense is, he can't be worse than what our perimeter gave up tonight.

[FerryFor50]

Once again, just like in the UConn game, we had a near 10 minute stretch in the 2nd half where we had 0 FGs.

Because all we are good at doing is shooting jump shots.

We don't have a breakdown guard and we don't have anybody who can score in the low post.

Which is why we have these ridiculously long offensive droughts when the jump shots aren't falling.

Unfortunately that problem cannot be fixed without personnel change.

Smith is a breakdown guard. He just wasn't playing that well.

[Lulu]

Dawkins didn't play until we had no choice because he couldn't cover.

Yeah... but you actually can win games by outscoring your opponent... something we've never learned but the folks 7 miles down the road have no problem with...

[91devil]

We simply cannot have these long stretches without field goals. The offense for most of the second half was one guy dribbling, driving and shooting.

It's easy to forget how poorly we played on offense against Connecticut, and only the combination of our pretty good defense and their awful shooting allowed us to build a comfortable working margin in that game.

I'm also questioning, a bit, whether this game was the right one for Mason to return. He looked somewhat lost out there, and didn't contribute much.

[jipops]

I know the final score was tight but this was a case of the Badgers man-handling our guys. Our D atleast came together a bit in the 2nd but the offense is a big cause for concern.

This is the 3rd game in a row where our offense failed to be in any kind of sync. There was yet another lengthy offensive drought in a very critical part of the game. Dawkins was great but he was basically a bailout for everything else that failed. We seem to have some pretty big problems on this side of the floor, namely what Knight alluded to repeatedly that we just don't have front court players that can be relied on to give us offense.

Somewhat similar to ASU, Wisconsin spread the floor but in this case they beat us to the rim often. We're vulnerable on this one, not sure what we can do to counter.

Wisconsin was great tonight. The score does not indicate how much they truly dominated us tonight.

[Greg_Newton]

(insert sweet diagram that I drew showing Duke peaking in March but didn't format right)

Congrats to UW, great win for them. Also want to give props to some of their fans that have been posting on here... y'all kept it respectful and informative and were spot-on with a lot of your analysis. May this perhaps be a lesson to some of us not to assume a blowout before the game is played...:rolleyes:

[geraldsneighbor]

Hey, at least were not Tiger Woods or a Nets fan... today could be worse.

[jobin]

Glad to come over here, TDD is in meltdown mode right now.

On that note..

Duke didn't deserve to win this game. Our defense was horrendous tonight, backdoor cuts killed us. It's gonna happen though, Duke was previously 10-0 in the challenge. Coach will address these problems, better to get it fixed now instead of when ACC play cranks up. Dawkins really came out tonight in the crunch, great to see a freshmen step up the way he did. Duke will be alright, tough road game, Wisconsin was lights out.

Next Play..

[Devilsfan]

Knight acknowledged that Duke's weakness is thier bigs and they don't seem to know what help defense is about. He seemed amazed at Zoub not being able to finish when he has the ball within two feet of the basket. On a positive note, Dawkins is money and Singler is Singler.

[crote]

I wish we'd seen more Dawkins earlier in this game, especially with Jon and Nolan struggling (combined 7-24). Minutes tonight went:

Singler 40
Scheyer 39
Smith 37
Dawkins 22

I would have preferred something closer to:

Singler 37
Scheyer 36
Smith 35
Dawkins 30

The good news, I guess, is that Dre is starting to look like a very legitimate fourth scoring option. Through tonight, he's averaging over 10 PPG on an even 50% shooting, both from the field and from 3. He's also made all five of his free throws this year. If he can get his defense up to speed, you've got to expect him to start seeing increased minutes.

[Kimist]

(I think that pretty well covers things)

[Spam Filter]

Smith is a breakdown guard. He just wasn't playing that well.

Smith is not a breakdown guard.

He's just the best at it of all the players we have.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Issue: Duke big men scored 6 points, in 72 minutes..

That has to improve or there will be more losses.

It was still a tight game, thanks to Dawkins, kid has a stroke. Move on and work on the inside game, it's still early in the season.

[BlueintheFace]

It sure looked like it was a designed play. Scheyer came off a banana curl toward the sideline (which we do a lot in those situations). The pass just had a lot of mustard and the timing wasn't right, but at first glance, it sure look like a called play. Of course, we could easily find out from the post-game quotes that someone was supposed to come back for the ball and didn't.

Until I hear otherwise, I believe it was the actual play call. A bad one by K and poor execution by Kyle.

I hope I am wrong.

I am fairly sure that the Singler Iso play was not a mistake though... I don't completely understand that either.

[jipops]

We NEVER throw the ball to our big guys in the post.

This is very much false. All of Miles pts were off lobs. Any other dumps down low were blown by our bigs. We missed several shots at the rim. At one point Lance had his stuff thrown by a guard. We're just not getting much offensive production when the ball goes to the post.

[CDu]

Great effort from Wisconsin tonight. They were the better team tonight. They shot well, but they also made our defense look not so hot.

Singler had a great game. It is unfortunate for him that he struggled the last few minutes.

Nice to see Dawkins hit some shots, but there's still work to do defensively.

And nice to see Mason return. Hopefully he gets into the flow by ACC play.

Other than that, I don't have much positive to say. Scheyer, Smith, and the rest of the bigs just didn't have good nights.

Hopefully this was just the case of catching a disciplined team at home on a good night. But there is definitely work to be done.

[dukestheheat]

We were lucky to even be in that game. They shot the lights out. I know we didn't play great defense, but when a team shoots that well, sometimes you just have to tip your hat. Amazing that we got it that close. The dumb plays down the stretch hurt. We had chances, just blew them. I guess we should take encouragement that we were close at all.

....Duke even had many chances there in the last 8 minutes to even it up or take the lead and they just couldn't do it. Duke didn't work nearly as hard on defense this game but did push the offense really hard going down the stretch to make up for it and keep it really close.

If Duke plays D the whole game like they did going down the stretch tonight, we win this game, I think, even with Wiscy shooting so hot like they did.

So yeah, I feel pretty good about this loss b/c despite how poorly we defended, we still had many chances there at the end game.

dth.

[chrisheery]

This inside game, or lack there of, issue really bothers me. I think it falls directly to the coaching staff. They simply have to teach these guys have to catch and put it up without making a bunch of stupid moves and getting blocked. Collect yourself and go up hard. If you miss, it is still a good shot. We are more likely to shoot 50% from 3 feet than from 23 feet.

Why do our big guys not know how to shoot a jump hook? If I were 6'10" it would be the only shot I would practice until I could make it in my sleep. If you shoot it 500 times a day, you will get it. We don't we throw the ball inside? I guess I would think twice about practicing that shot myself if I knew my teammates would never throw me the ball.

[YourLandlord]

Because all we are good at doing is shooting jump shots.

We don't have a breakdown guard and we don't have anybody who can score in the low post.

Which is why we have these ridiculously long offensive droughts when the jump shots aren't falling.

Unfortunately that problem cannot be fixed without personnel change.

Was this a post regarding the 2005 team?

or 2006.

or 2007.

or 2008.

or 2009?

just wondering.

[FerryFor50]

I'm pretty surprised that so many people are down on Zoubek this year. He's really improved. Tonight didn't show it, but then again, who else really showed up other than Singler and Dawkins? Z provides good size and rebounding. Sure he commits dumb fouls now and then, but every player does. I do agree that he needs to play less against mobile big men, though. They eat him alive.

[Chicago 1995]

Dawkins didn't play until we had no choice because he couldn't cover.

There were plenty of guys who couldn't cover tonight that didn't sit. Dawkins just didn't play much until we went little with 8 to play, moved Kyle to the 4, and went away from a bigger lineup.

[jv001]

I remember some things Jumbo commented on in his latest Phase. 1. Would like to see more hi-low plays. 2. Mason inserted into the starting lineup. 3. Lance used as a defensive stopper. I truly believe we will see all 3 in the not too distant future. Lance does not give us very much on the offensive end and would be better off the bench. And with Mason in the lineup we could run the hi-low offense much better. We have a long way to go and I expect to see better play next game. Go Duke!

[geraldsneighbor]

Is it me or did this game feel a lot like last years game at BC. Wisconsin time and time again hit big time shots and when we pulled close we didn't make the shot or get the rebound we needed. Also like that game the majority of the game was played from behind (this one the entire game was from behind).

Its a shame we wasted such great efforts by Kyle and Dre but like last years game at Michigan, we can learn from this. Its a tough pill to swallow but the first one is always the toughest.

Saturday we battle St. John's and its absolutely imperative we get back on track with our big men and Jon.

[ChrisP]

It is certainly not Smith's fault (or any one player's fault, for that matter) that Duke lost tonight, but...Smith has GOT to play more under control and get his focus back on "D" for Duke to be an elite level team this year. He's a junior, he should know better by now. The wild shots, the lack of passing, getting lost on D...not...good. He was awful in the UConn game and he seemed to pick right up where he left off in the game against Wisconsin tonight.

[KShip21]

Questionable coaching by K and terrible execution by Kyle Singler down the stretch... no excuses.

I'm glad someone said it. Outstanding first half and outstanding scoring effort. However, he forced way too many shots late in the game and that turnover to seal it was real bad. Althought it wasn't 100% his fault.

Sidenote my friend and I have been referring to Andre as Andre "splash" Dawkins. Thought that was a good, appropriate nickname.

[chrisheery]

This is very much false. All of Miles pts were off lobs. Any other dumps down low were blown by our bigs. We missed several shots at the rim. At one point Lance had his stuff thrown by a guard. We're just not getting much offensive production when the ball goes to the post.

I have the game TiVo'd. Find me one post entry pass and I will watch it. No, I don't count lobs for alley-oops, no one counts that as an entry pass. Yes, our guys missed a few shots in close, but I think they were all on rebounds or loose balls that came to them.

Actually, I'll change this, we did throw it inside to Singler and maybe even Lance and Zoubeck once each. I was really thinking about Miles (and Mason, but he wasn't in much). Those guys are our future and we need to cultivate them, especially in tough games.

[CDu]

umm im not sure, but he said "it wasn't fair"

may have misunderstood, but didnt think so

anyways. tough loss. on to st johns. we gotta get better!

I just watched it again. He was definitely talking about Dawkins. You had the wording correct - you just must have missed the question. It was a weird compliment, but it was a compliment.

[jacone21]

Until I hear otherwise, I believe it was the
I am fairly sure that the Singler Iso play was not a mistake though... I don't completely understand that either.

I think that play was a good call, but Kyle has to look to score and not look to get fouled. If he stepped back and makes a 10 footer, we're right there. But he just dribbled into his man looking for a whistle.

Good game though. We aren't going to win them all this year. Just win the last one and I'll be happy. :D

[FerryFor50]

I'm glad someone said it. Outstanding first half and outstanding scoring effort. However, he forced way too many shots late in the game and that turnover to seal it was real bad. Althought it wasn't 100% his fault.

Sidenote my friend and I have been referring to Andre as Andre "splash" Dawkins. Thought that was a good, appropriate nickname.

Too bad his name wasn't Gordon. Splash Gordon would be cool.

[Lulu]

How many people were dying for Dawkins to get one more touch there late in the game? I feel like I'm still waiting for it.

[FerryFor50]

I have the game TiVo'd. Find me one post entry pass and I will watch it. No, I don't count lobs for alley-oops, no one counts that as an entry pass. Yes, our guys missed a few shots in close, but I think they were all on rebounds or loose balls that came to them.

Actually, I'll change this, we did throw it inside to Singler and maybe even Lance and Zoubeck once each. I was really thinking about Miles (and Mason, but he wasn't in much). Those guys are our future and we need to cultivate them, especially in tough games.

They threw it to Miles once... and he got called for an offensive foul that looked like a pretty good acting job.

[I_am_a_Blue_Devil]

1.http://i.pbase.com/o6/44/718244/1/71482445.qAJAyBVU.BoRyan.JPGhttp://canada.blog.uvm.edu/group3/grinch.jpg....this is relevant on more levels than one...

2. I couldnt help but wonder what tonight would have looked like with Gerald out there.

[geraldsneighbor]

How many people were dying for Dawkins to get one more touch there late in the game? I feel like I'm still waiting for it.

Couldn't agree more with you there.


For a nickname.... Big Shot Dre.

[NSDukeFan]

I'm pretty surprised that so many people are down on Zoubek this year. He's really improved. Tonight didn't show it, but then again, who else really showed up other than Singler and Dawkins? Z provides good size and rebounding. Sure he commits dumb fouls now and then, but every player does. I do agree that he needs to play less against mobile big men, though. They eat him alive.

He looked quicker out there to me tonight than last year. He's obviously not a speed demon, but I think he is moving better. I just wish he wouldn't have jumped on that last foul where he had defended his man well, but went for the pump fake. A couple of bunnies would have been nice as well. He does seem to be rebounding with a lot of authority this year. Miles seems to be strong on the boards as well. Poor game from our bigs tonight and we didn't use them much offensively, like we have in previous games and I hope we will in the future. Lots to work on. I didn't think we were going to be undefeated this year.

[Coballs]

its frustrating to loose to a team that is not better.
especially when they shoot lights out like that and we make dumb mistakes down the stretch.
we didn't deserve to win and yet almost did
oh well

What makes you think that Wisconsin is not a better team than us? They certainly were tonight. They have better lead guard play. They ran a better half court offense and worked for better/open shots. Their big men, although not exceptionally athletic or talented, are certainly better all around basketball players than LT and Zoubek, and they don't need to be wide open underneath the basket in order to score. These stats are pretty telling: Wisc 17 assists, 4 turnovers, Duke 11 assists, 11 turnovers. Just because our roster is comprised of guys who were more highly ranked when they were recruited, it does not make Duke the better team.

[FerryFor50]

I like how Kansas played Alcorn St tonight. When are they going to play someone? The only two tough non-conference games they have are Temple and Tennessee....

[soccerstud2210]

I just watched it again. He was definitely talking about Dawkins. You had the wording correct - you just must have missed the question. It was a weird compliment, but it was a compliment.

i stand corrected. my bad. very weird compliment

[Lulu]

I just want to be the first to blame this loss on the new "no charges under the basket being left to the refs discretion" rule.

Is there any rule that would prevent a team from putting a darker wood or paint in the area directly under the basket? Can you add lines even if the refs are supposed to ignore them?

[FerryFor50]

What makes you think that Wisconsin is not a better team than us? They certainly were tonight. They have better guard play. They ran a better half court offense and worked for better/open shots. Their big men, although not exceptionally athletic or talented, are certainly better all around basketball players than LT and Zoubek, and they don't need to be wide open underneath the basket in order to score. These stats are pretty telling: Wisc 17 assists, 4 turnovers, Duke 11 assists, 11 turnovers. Just because our roster is comprised of guys who were more highly ranked when they were recruited, it does not make Duke the better team.

I think if they played 10 times on a neutral court with *good* refs, Duke wins 7 out of 10.

[chrisheery]

what about Wisconsin wasn't good? They had a good player or at least a solid contributor at every position on the floor for almost the entire game. Their big men were versatile and stretched our defense by making important shots. They were able to play great defense for much of the game and kept our team from scoring or ever looking comfortable. Exactly what is the definition of a better team if Wisconsin doesn't meet it?

[jipops]

This inside game, or lack there of, issue really bothers me. I think it falls directly to the coaching staff. They simply have to teach these guys have to catch and put it up without making a bunch of stupid moves and getting blocked. Collect yourself and go up hard. If you miss, it is still a good shot. We are more likely to shoot 50% from 3 feet than from 23 feet.

Why do our big guys not know how to shoot a jump hook? If I were 6'10" it would be the only shot I would practice until I could make it in my sleep. If you shoot it 500 times a day, you will get it. We don't we throw the ball inside? I guess I would think twice about practicing that shot myself if I knew my teammates would never throw me the ball.

Glad to know it's really just that simple. I actually think you're wrong here though. The bigs were in very good position to score when they had the ball down low. Unfortunately the skills just weren't/aren't there. Both Z and Lance have extremely slow releases down low. This isn't something you simply "coach". Miles is coming along and was atleast able to convert one in traffic but he's still a work in progress. Contrast him now with the player he was last year and it's obvious the staff has accomplished a lot. No way Mason can be judged in this one and it may be awhile before we see what kind of player he really is.

And I'm not buying this notion that we don't throw it in the post. We did numerous times actually. Watch the game again if you DVR'd it. But when little to no offense can be produced down there we have to look to the perimeter.

[COYS]

To me, this game demonstrates how important Scheyer is to the team. He had a rare off night. He still played good defense for the most part, but was definitely not quite as in control as usual on the offensive end. Smith and Singler also had a few head-scratchers down the stretch. I love seeing Dawkins hit those shots, the guy is money. However, I will be interested to see how his +/- stats work for tonight because he had a lot of breakdowns on defense.

This is definitely not a game I'm too worried about. Wisconsin has been virtually unbeatable at home. We added a new player into our rotation (and, by the way, the "small" lineup with Mason, Kyle, Dre, Jon, and Nolan looks like it can be devastating on offense), and we made a ton of mental mistakes. Hopefully Mason will give us more consistent offense in the post, which may even free Miles, Zoubs, and Thomas to get easy buckets instead of trying to shoot over the opposition's primary post defender. Otherwise, I fully expect to see Jon Scheyer return to his usual great form by the time Saturday rolls around.

[roywhite]

What makes you think that Wisconsin is not a better team than us? They certainly were tonight. They have better guard play. They ran a better half court offense and worked for better/open shots. Their big men, although not exceptionally athletic or talented, are certainly better all around basketball players than LT and Zoubek, and they don't need to be wide open underneath the basket in order to score. These stats are pretty telling: Wisc 17 assists, 4 turnovers, Duke 11 assists, 11 turnovers. Just because our roster is comprised of guys that were more highly ranked when they were recruited, it does not make Duke the better team.


Yeah, credit to Wisconsin; they played a great game. They also were really psyched up, had a raucous crowd, and hit some "horse" shots.

And Duke still came back and had a chance in the last minute.

A game like this in the tournament would be devastating; in December, it's a learning experience.

[NSDukeFan]

How many people were dying for Dawkins to get one more touch there late in the game? I feel like I'm still waiting for it.

But I was happy with the ball in Kyle's hands at the end. Unfortunately, he didn't make the final play, but I would rather have Kyle try to create something rather than try to screen for Andre.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

Year in and year out people on this board have complained that recently Duke peaks too early. So, here we have a team with a lot of things that need to be tweaked and worked on before March. I don't think anyone thinks we are anywhere close to having peaked.

GO DUKE!

[SoCalDukeFan]

We got beat because Wisconsin got more easy shots than we did, especially in the first half.

Refs did not help.

They are well coached, good players, great at home and won the game.

We will get better.

SoCal

[loran16]

I'm gonna make one comment and leave it at that:

Duke tends to start with an advantage over teams in November and December: We start better prepared, and closer to our top potential, than 90% of other teams, which leads to us winning and dominating in non-conference play.

But other teams then seem to catch up by Conference Play. We don't get worse, but they learn to play better.

This year, this team ISN'T close to its top potential. It's raw. Some of that is because of injury (Mason), some is because of youth. And we can grow.

And Growth WILL BE THE KEY TO THIS SEASON. If the Plumlee brothers can grow into scoring threats, we'll be a top 10, top 5 team at end of the year. If Dawkins can keep shooting this way and can play major minutes. If Smith CAN Take that leap.

We've been talking like these things have already happened. But they haven't really...remember, our guys showed flashes last year as well. The Key is TAPPING INTO THAT POTENTIAL Consistently. We've got a long way to go before we get there this year.

But remember, for once, our weaknesses are because of YOUNG players, like Smith, the Plumlees, and Dawkins. These are the guys who are more likely to get better. Whereas if our problems were our seniors, we'd be in trouble since growth was not too likely.

[Wander]

Not terribly worried, a road loss at Wisconsin is nothing to be too ashamed of. I still think we can win the ACC, as the conference doesn't really have many guards who are going to force Smith and Scheyer into poor games. With that said, there are of course things we can work on:

We need to figure out how to integrate Mason Plumlee into the lineup correctly, as Zoubek and Lance just don't bring enough offensively to the table (to be fair to Z, Wisconsin is a terrible matchup for him, with shooting big guys... but he still should be able to do something positive for us).

We need to get Andre up to speed defensively as quickly as we can. He's a great asset on offense, but he needs to find his place on the other side of the ball so we can give him more minutes.

We have to figure out what to do when the offense is not working. Scheyer did not do a good job at all initiating offense (deferred to Nolan too much to initiate stuff, did a poor job with Hughes) and Nolan made some rather poor decisions (driving too early in the shot clock when Singler was calling for the ball, thinking Singler would switch on his open man out of an out of bounds play resulting in an open Wisconsin 3). We'll get better here with experience (and with Mason).

We'll be OK. I still don't really think we have the depth to be a favorite to make the Final Four, but we can win the ACC and have a really good season. Other than the overall depth, our weaknesses are all things we can better at.

[MADevil30]

This is very much false. All of Miles pts were off lobs. Any other dumps down low were blown by our bigs. We missed several shots at the rim. At one point Lance had his stuff thrown by a guard. We're just not getting much offensive production when the ball goes to the post.

An ally-oop is not what coach Knight or anyone else is talking about when they say throwing the ball into the post. They are talking about sending it down there in the normal flow of the offense, having a big man back down a defender, and either make a pass back out or, even better, a move to get a shot (Zoubs will never-ever-ever be able to do this; I think Miles could but doesn't really have a sense for it yet).

I was pretty disgusted with the way we played tonight; I didn't think we had any business being in it at the end. Our defense was lazy and, worse, poorly executed. The offensive flow was basically non-existent. I thought the best example of this was with Nolan; all of his shots tonight (ill advised or not) were off the dribble, but we're used to seeing the ball motioned to him in the corner for jump shots. Not tonight. A lot of credit to Wisconsin, and I think we can improve from this, but we just did not play well at any point in this game.

Not going to comment specifically on the playing rotation, but I'll say that I wasn't too impressed with that either.

[Hermy-own]

A few things, though nothing new:

We need to stop with the dribble-kick offense. It doesn't work. What in the world happened to our motion offense that got people open in previous games? Our only offense tonight was Singler or Smith driving and making their layups - even our kicks weren't working.

We need to feed to post, to miles and mason especially, but really to everyone. Even if our guys miss their shot, the important thing is to have to ball floating around the goal so that it can be tipped in by our huge lineup. We really did not feed it in at all today (again, on offense out team was standing around, watching)

Our defense was truly appalling. It is true that Wisc cooled down a tiny bit in the second half, but that had little to do with our defense. The real change was just that our weak defense got them on a hot streak in the first half, then they cooled off, but still were able to come up with easy baskets when they needed them. Where is the zone? Where, where, where? I know Bob Knight blamed our help defense, and that may be it, but it's pretty darn hard to have help defense when people penetrate the lane with ease on every single possession.

Also, please stop talking about the last play. It is OK to worry about end of game in the NCAA tourney. Until then, we shouldn't have to be in that situation in the first place.

I am inclined to blame the coaching staff for some of these problems - no motion offense, no feeding the ball down low, not enough zone defense. I think the coaching staff is trying to get away with as little of those concepts as they possibly can, and they gambled wrong by just a few points tonight. I wish they would embrace those ideas and really have the team use them, instead of forcing our team to run a scheme that doesn't suit them.

[chrisheery]

Glad to know it's really just that simple. I actually think you're wrong here though. The bigs were in very good position to score when they had the ball down low. Unfortunately the skills just weren't/aren't there. Both Z and Lance have extremely slow releases down low. This isn't something you simply "coach". Miles is coming along and was atleast able to convert one in traffic but he's still a work in progress. Contrast him now with the player he was last year and it's obvious the staff has accomplished a lot. No way Mason can be judged in this one and it may be awhile before we see what kind of player he really is.

And I'm not buying this notion that we don't throw it in the post. We did numerous times actually. Watch the game again if you DVR'd it. But when little to no offense can be produced down there we have to look to the perimeter.

This is the thinking that causes us to be mired in this offense that is so hard to watch. Three guys on the perimeter driving into a clogged lane because the other team's post players don't have to guard our post players. Yeah, they will miss shots, but the point is that they need to take them to prove that they will. No one gets better with the way things are going. We need our big guys to improve for our team to improve. The only way to do that is to let them make mistakes.

Also, it is that simple. I have played with many guys who were unbelievably unatheletic, but they learned simple post moves and a jump hook and can more than hold their own with very good players. Don't tell me you can't "coach" that. That is exactly the kind of thing you do "coach."

(I am not talking about Lance and Zoub, they have had more than enough chances over 3 + years)

[Jumbo]

There were plenty of guys who couldn't cover tonight that didn't sit. Dawkins just didn't play much until we went little with 8 to play, moved Kyle to the 4, and went away from a bigger lineup.

We went small almost immediately in the second half. Dawkins came in for Thomas with the score 40-38 and never came back out. That was the first sub of the second half and I believe it came before the under-16 timeout.

[FireOgilvie]

The people who keep waiting for Mason to be our 4th best player or whatever this year are going to be disappointed. I've been saying this for months, but Miles is a LOT better than Mason is right now. Mason is absolutely not ready. I don't think he's strong enough and he's definitely not the presence that Miles is on defense. He has almost no inside game outside of dunking (and he's not as good as Miles at getting in position). It will take a major transformation for Mason to become our 4th or even 5th/6th best player. Right now, he's just flying by on raw talent and potential.

[BlueintheFace]

Wheat touched on a very disturbing point.

Not a lot of post touches... not a lot of post shots.... Not a lot of post points. This game looked sadly familiar in that one respect.

[Devilsfan]

I was always an advocate of a larger rotation so we could be fresher in March. But with this squad I would like to see a seven man rotation. The Plumlees, Singler, Scheyer and Smith with Dawkins and Lance off the bench. No more, no less. Also focus on Ryan just getting stronger for the years to come because I believe he will really contribute down the road.

[southgater]

I thought the turning point of the game was the blocking call on Singler that looked clearly to me (and Bob Knight) to be a charge - with about 7 min left in the game. We had been making up some ground and then Singler stepped in and took what looked like a clear charge. Refs saw it the other way and instead of a turnover and more momentum for us, they get 2 foul shots and take away our head of steam. Certainly this call wasn't why we lost the game, but it did seem to turn the tide at that point.

[AlaskanAssassin]

I sort of would've liked us to look for a 3 on the trip Nolan went to the hole. When you get that late in the game down 3 they are liable to foul and it was our last trip down where we were able to run a regular set on offense.

I am so with you! When Nolan drove..I was screaming! I totally thought they were going to set up a play for a 3

[chrisheery]

If Ryan Kelly isn't going to get any chances, I don't understand why he didn't just redshirt. Seems like tonight would have been a reasonable game for him to play in. Playing against inside-out big men who have better ball skills than Zoub or Lance. I know he's skinny, but fouls are called in basketball when someone is getting a significant advantage by contact. Seems like his mid (or long) range shooting as a big man might have come in handy tonight.

[FerryFor50]

Wheat touched on a very disturbing point.

Not a lot of post touches... not a lot of post shots.... Not a lot of post points. This game looked sadly familiar in that one respect.

What's the point of recruiting big men if you're not going to use em?

[Jumbo]

What makes you think that Wisconsin is not a better team than us? They certainly were tonight. They have better lead guard play. They ran a better half court offense and worked for better/open shots. Their big men, although not exceptionally athletic or talented, are certainly better all around basketball players than LT and Zoubek, and they don't need to be wide open underneath the basket in order to score. These stats are pretty telling: Wisc 17 assists, 4 turnovers, Duke 11 assists, 11 turnovers. Just because our roster is comprised of guys who were more highly ranked when they were recruited, it does not make Duke the better team.

Easy there. One game is not a representative sample side. I don't agree that they have better lead guard play. They had better lead guard play tonight, but anyone can outplay anyone on a given even. For all the lamenting of poor defense, missed opportunities on offense, etc., we have to acknowledge that not only did Wisconsin play well, they played out-of-character well. Hughes, for instance, is not a particularly good 3-point shooter (33.6% for his career), but drilled them tonight. That ridiculous rainbow shot he hit at the end of the shot clock isn't exactly likely to go in often. There were other plays like that.

This was sort of a perfect storm -- a lot of Duke's guys just looked "off." Add in a late game in a rabid, unfamiliar arena against a solid team that shot exceptionally well (29.2% from 3-point range entering the game), and you have a loss. A loss on Dec. 2. I was pretty angry for about five minutes; totally over it now. This team has plenty of upside, and I'm more interested in working toward that than the outcome of a game on Dec. 2.

[BlueintheFace]

I am so with you! When Nolan drove..I was screaming! I totally thought they were going to set up a play for a 3

That could have gone both ways. It certainly wasn't stupid. Down 3 points with ~4.7 seconds left and the ball is not exactly insurmountable. I would have preferred a three, but you take the two if its there. That being said... the two wasn't really there. The problem was with the shot choice, not the decision to go for two. It al worked out on that possession anyways.

[dukieinhebron]

I just lost a bet with my coach, huge Wisconsin fan. I now owe him a footlong sub from Subway.


However, Bo Ryan's squad was tremendous tonight and they rightfully deserve the win.
Nolan Smith's judgement late in the game was questionable at best.
Andre Dawkins will be a beast, i feel every shot he puts up from deep is nothing but net.

And kudos to Trevon Hughes tonight, played extremely well and made Jon a no show tonight.

Kyle was excellent first half, second half felt he was forcing a little to much. But was good look at the end of the game, he just has to finish.

[Ohiobobcat204]

Let me start by saying that i love coach K like crazy. Obviously the guy is a legend and one of the greatest coaches in the game. But i cant help but feel like he had some problems on this one. This is just my opinion and i dont mean this in a harsh way to him, obviously hindsight is 20 20 but..
1. Zoubek was in a bit too much for my liking, Miles hardly made a mistake all night and he didnt see the floor nearly as much as he should have. Bobby Knight was talking about how our bigs r our weakness, Miles could score on people. Miles plays good D. Miles is freakishly athletic. Mason will be the same when he is healthy but I did like to see coach K working him in tonight.
2. Why why why does Dawkins not play more. I was saying that even before the 4 threes.
3. I feel like we should have let nolan bring it up a litle more. Jon just could not penetrate tonight. That guard for them was way too quick and athletic.
and finally 4. Im not sure if coach K told them to go for a quick 2, but if he did, that was insane. Perhaps it was just Nolans decision though. However, the play at the end i didnt approve of at all. 4 seconds is plenty of time to get the ball to a guard at the freethrow line nd let him push it up for a shot.
A baseball pass to the halfcourt sideline was awful. just awful

[jpfrizzle]

I sure hope they learn from this game!!

[Devilsfan]

I thought wisc. played exceptional tonight. Their bigs play awful good for not being high profile recruits.

[BlueintheFace]

This is very weird. I actually find myself more upset with some of K's choices than the lack of execution by our players. This almost never happened last season, but this year I am just finding more tactical decisions I disagree with than usual. I can't really explain it.

[such]

Good game from Wisconsin, congrats to them. My thoughts:

1. Andre looks young - can totally see him as a high school senior player right now. But man, he can shoot, he is a player, and the future looks bright with him. I wish he had the opportunity to take a shot at the end. Why did Nolan drive for 2 when we needed a 3?

2. Singler played well all game but that last drive to the left and then the botched up inbound play game me flashbacks to Trajan's last play back in the finals. Agggghh! At least we need to get a good look! Why do we not call time outs in those situations? Did we have any left? The announcers (especially B.Knight) provided some great basketball insight but really were not on top of the game as it was going on.

3. How do they pass it in to Wisconsin's hottest player and two of our players run the other way as he lines up a three? Lots of these mental lapses today, hopefully that is something can be improved.

[Coballs]

The people who keep waiting for Mason to be our 4th best player or whatever this year are going to be disappointed. I've been saying this for months, but Miles is a LOT better than Mason is right now. Mason is absolutely not ready. I don't think he's strong enough and he's definitely not the presence that Miles is on defense. He has almost no inside game outside of dunking (and he's not as good as Miles at getting in position). It will take a major transformation for Mason to become our 4th or even 5th/6th best player. Right now, he's just flying by on raw talent and potential.

I think that your expectations for Mason Plumlee are reasonable and accurate. It's tough to expect a freshman who is already playing catch-up to emerge as a major contributor this season. That being said, I hope and expect him to take many of LT and Zoubek's minutes within a few games.

[jv001]

We came out and played lackluster defense to start the game. The Badgers hit some three pointers and that gave them confidence. I didn't know if they were going to miss for a while there. I agree with Jumbo they do not consistently shoot that well. But they play really well at home and you cannot come out flat like we did. Next Play. Go Duke!

[Poincaré]

I think if they played 10 times on a neutral court with *good* refs, Duke wins 7 out of 10.

First of all, this Duke team supposedly has National Championship aspirations. We cannot win that prize if we cannot overcome bad refs against a merely "good" team like Wisconsin. Secondly, if Duke can expect to win only 7/10 on a neutral court with "good" refs against Wisconsin (we're not talking about Kansas here), then our team is delusional to think about winning the championship.

Do Jon, Kyle, and Nolan make up the best perimeter core in the nation (or close to it?) At the moment, they are not...

If not, then we are not a championship level team, right? We have very good (but not great) outside play and decent (but not good) inside play. Where is the single dominant strength of this team? Of our interior players (excluding Mason, since he's been missing for a while), only Miles can score when someone gives him a nice pass. Zoubek and Thomas are not scoring even when given good position deep in the post. How much difference can Mason make? He is just a freshman and he missed some pretty important development time due to his injury.

Granted, it looks like Jon, Kyle, and Nolan cannot seem to complement each other very well right now, so we have some room for growth there.

Best case scenario: our big three begin gelling, Mason's frosh year matches Kyle's frosh year, and Miles learns to play without fouling by January. Dre blows up.

A prediction based on gut feeling: K gets sick of playing big and goes back to small ball, Andre Dawkins starts. Nolan and Dre form traditional Duke ball-pressure tandem up top. Kyle starts scoring more consistently against the slower-footed bigs who will guard him in a small ball lineup. Mason-Miles-Zoubek-Thomas make marginal improvements to become serviceable (but not a strength). Upset in the ACC tourney and another second round exit from the NCAA tournament in a hostile building.

I am tired of excuses at this point. First, it was "Nolan's going to change this team". Then it was "Mason's going to change this team." Who's our next savior (for this year)? I'm not saying we're horrible or anything. We're still a good team. I am just disappointed that we don't seem very like to become a great team by March. Granted, my eyes are untrained. I am not a basketball expert. If someone can see that possibility and layout a realistic path to greatness without involving too many "if this"s and "if that"s, then I would be very happy to read about it.

Another thing that is going against us: refs are going to abuse the discretion they have in (not) calling charges since no circle is drawn under the basket. It happened more than once tonight. This only hurts our team more on D since that is one of our biggest weapons.

[Jumbo]

A few things, though nothing new:

We need to stop with the dribble-kick offense. It doesn't work. What in the world happened to our motion offense that got people open in previous games? Our only offense tonight was Singler or Smith driving and making their layups - even our kicks weren't working.

We need to feed to post, to miles and mason especially, but really to everyone. Even if our guys miss their shot, the important thing is to have to ball floating around the goal so that it can be tipped in by our huge lineup. We really did not feed it in at all today (again, on offense out team was standing around, watching)

Our defense was truly appalling. It is true that Wisc cooled down a tiny bit in the second half, but that had little to do with our defense. The real change was just that our weak defense got them on a hot streak in the first half, then they cooled off, but still were able to come up with easy baskets when they needed them. Where is the zone? Where, where, where? I know Bob Knight blamed our help defense, and that may be it, but it's pretty darn hard to have help defense when people penetrate the lane with ease on every single possession.

Also, please stop talking about the last play. It is OK to worry about end of game in the NCAA tourney. Until then, we shouldn't have to be in that situation in the first place.

I am inclined to blame the coaching staff for some of these problems - no motion offense, no feeding the ball down low, not enough zone defense. I think the coaching staff is trying to get away with as little of those concepts as they possibly can, and they gambled wrong by just a few points tonight. I wish they would embrace those ideas and really have the team use them, instead of forcing our team to run a scheme that doesn't suit them.

Did you happen to notice the trouble Duke had rebounding out of the zone? Wisconsin had 12 offensive rebounds on the night; the zone contributed to those numbers.

[Jumbo]

This is the thinking that causes us to be mired in this offense that is so hard to watch. Three guys on the perimeter driving into a clogged lane because the other team's post players don't have to guard our post players. Yeah, they will miss shots, but the point is that they need to take them to prove that they will. No one gets better with the way things are going. We need our big guys to improve for our team to improve. The only way to do that is to let them make mistakes.

Also, it is that simple. I have played with many guys who were unbelievably unatheletic, but they learned simple post moves and a jump hook and can more than hold their own with very good players. Don't tell me you can't "coach" that. That is exactly the kind of thing you do "coach."

(I am not talking about Lance and Zoub, they have had more than enough chances over 3 + years)

If you could tone it down a notch, that would be great.

[Ohiobobcat204]

I hate to say it, but when Zoubek is in we seem to fall into a slump. He just isnt the right type of center for our style of offense. And besides that, any 7 footer who, when presented with a clear lane to the hoop, goes up and tries to draw a foul in a manner that a 6 foot 4 guard would by flailing and distorting your body into an awkward position in order to make contact has no reason being on the floor over a guy like Miles plumlee who goes up hard EVERY TIME.

[jipops]

Also, it is that simple. I have played with many guys who were unbelievably unatheletic, but they learned simple post moves and a jump hook and can more than hold their own with very good players. Don't tell me you can't "coach" that. That is exactly the kind of thing you do "coach."


This ACC ball you played in?

The thing is, guys have improved down there. But abilities can only take you so far. Maybe Zoubek would have a jump hook if he had the ability to jump? Z actually has shown a nice half hook in games past, unfortunately it never showed tonight, probably b/c he never got himself in the middle of the lane for one. He had nice position on the low block but blew those shots.

I realize this critique gets down to criticizing the coaching staff for not developing post play. Even though we did go there tonight, I just don't see how you completely blow a game for some perceived development and what would throwing it down there just for the sake of it actually have accomplished? Some may be looking at the light blue down the road with all their bigs but there is a huge difference there. All those guys showed up with some polish to their offensive game from day 1. Just look at the Wear bros. We just don't have that luxury. But I actually do believe the staff has done an excellent job with what there is to work with. Miles is a good example.

But it doesn't hide the fact that post play is big deal for this team to work on. It wasn't in any position to give us a win tonight.

[Poincaré]

Did you happen to notice the trouble Duke had rebounding out of the zone? Wisconsin had 12 offensive rebounds on the night; the zone contributed to those numbers.

I am looking for possible positives here. Is this something that we can work on and realistically improve upon? Should we play less zone? What do you think? I'd appreciate any additional insight on this matter.

[FerryFor50]

First of all, this Duke team supposedly has National Championship aspirations. We cannot win that prize if we cannot overcome bad refs against a merely "good" team like Wisconsin. Secondly, if Duke can expect to win only 7/10 on a neutral court with "good" refs against Wisconsin (we're not talking about Kansas here), then our team is delusional to think about winning the championship.

Do Jon, Kyle, and Nolan make up the best perimeter core in the nation (or close to it?) At the moment, they are not...

If not, then we are not a championship level team, right? We have very good (but not great) outside play and decent (but not good) inside play. Where is the single dominant strength of this team? Of our interior players (excluding Mason, since he's been missing for a while), only Miles can score when someone gives him a nice pass. Zoubek and Thomas are not scoring even when given good position deep in the post. How much difference can Mason make? He is just a freshman and he missed some pretty important development time due to his injury.

Granted, it looks like Jon, Kyle, and Nolan cannot seem to complement each other very well right now, so we have some room for growth there.

Best case scenario: our big three begin gelling, Mason's frosh year matches Kyle's frosh year, and Miles learns to play without fouling by January. Dre blows up.

A prediction based on gut feeling: K gets sick of playing big and goes back to small ball, Andre Dawkins starts. Nolan and Dre form traditional Duke ball-pressure tandem up top. Kyle starts scoring more consistently against the slower-footed bigs who will guard him in a small ball lineup. Mason-Miles-Zoubek-Thomas make marginal improvements to become serviceable (but not a strength). Upset in the ACC tourney and another second round exit from the NCAA tournament in a hostile building.

I am tired of excuses at this point. First, it was "Nolan's going to change this team". Then it was "Mason's going to change this team." Who's our next savior (for this year)? I'm not saying we're horrible or anything. We're still a good team. I am just disappointed that we don't seem very like to become a great team by March. Granted, my eyes are untrained. I am not a basketball expert. If someone can see that possibility and layout a realistic path to greatness without involving too many "if this"s and "if that"s, then I would be very happy to read about it.

Another thing that is going against us: refs are going to abuse the discretion they have in (not) calling charges since no circle is drawn under the basket. It happened more than once tonight. This only hurts our team more on D since that is one of our biggest weapons.

My statement 7 out of 10 had more to do with what I think of Wisconsin than what I think of Duke. I think Wisconsin is good, but not great.

But I have no delusions. I think this team is good, but championship caliber? not even close.

[Jumbo]

The people who keep waiting for Mason to be our 4th best player or whatever this year are going to be disappointed. I've been saying this for months, but Miles is a LOT better than Mason is right now. Mason is absolutely not ready. I don't think he's strong enough and he's definitely not the presence that Miles is on defense. He has almost no inside game outside of dunking (and he's not as good as Miles at getting in position). It will take a major transformation for Mason to become our 4th or even 5th/6th best player. Right now, he's just flying by on raw talent and potential.

Are you really judging him based on his first game back, as a freshman, after missing a month with a broken wrist? Really? I'm much more willing to trust his teammates and coaches, who have touted him highly since the summer. And from what I've seen of him, he's going to be very, very good later this season. Let's not overreact based on one game, let alone this one game, okay?

[BlueintheFace]

Are you really judging him based on his first game back, as a freshman, after missing a month with a broken wrist? Really? I'm much more willing to trust his teammates and coaches, who have touted him highly since the summer. And from what I've seen of him, he's going to be very, very good later this season. Let's not overreact based on one game, let alone this one game, okay?

Yah, try to imagine a worse scenario to get your first meaningful minutes as a freshman.

[roywhite]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204843489

The stats that jump out (some already mentioned) include:

Nolan shot 5-17
Dawkins did indeed play more minutes (22) than some realized
Zoubs and Lance combined for "0" points
Duke's defense in the second half held Wiscy to 34.5% FG

[geraldsneighbor]

First of all, this Duke team supposedly has National Championship aspirations. We cannot win that prize if we cannot overcome bad refs against a merely "good" team like Wisconsin. Secondly, if Duke can expect to win only 7/10 on a neutral court with "good" refs against Wisconsin (we're not talking about Kansas here), then our team is delusional to think about winning the championship.

Do Jon, Kyle, and Nolan make up the best perimeter core in the nation (or close to it?) At the moment, they are not...

If not, then we are not a championship level team, right? We have very good (but not great) outside play and decent (but not good) inside play. Where is the single dominant strength of this team? Of our interior players (excluding Mason, since he's been missing for a while), only Miles can score when someone gives him a nice pass. Zoubek and Thomas are not scoring even when given good position deep in the post. How much difference can Mason make? He is just a freshman and he missed some pretty important development time due to his injury.

Granted, it looks like Jon, Kyle, and Nolan cannot seem to complement each other very well right now, so we have some room for growth there.

Best case scenario: our big three begin gelling, Mason's frosh year matches Kyle's frosh year, and Miles learns to play without fouling by January. Dre blows up.

A prediction based on gut feeling: K gets sick of playing big and goes back to small ball, Andre Dawkins starts. Nolan and Dre form traditional Duke ball-pressure tandem up top. Kyle starts scoring more consistently against the slower-footed bigs who will guard him in a small ball lineup. Mason-Miles-Zoubek-Thomas make marginal improvements to become serviceable (but not a strength). Upset in the ACC tourney and another second round exit from the NCAA tournament in a hostile building.

I am tired of excuses at this point. First, it was "Nolan's going to change this team". Then it was "Mason's going to change this team." Who's our next savior (for this year)? I'm not saying we're horrible or anything. We're still a good team. I am just disappointed that we don't seem very like to become a great team by March. Granted, my eyes are untrained. I am not a basketball expert. If someone can see that possibility and layout a realistic path to greatness without involving too many "if this"s and "if that"s, then I would be very happy to read about it.

Another thing that is going against us: refs are going to abuse the discretion they have in (not) calling charges since no circle is drawn under the basket. It happened more than once tonight. This only hurts our team more on D since that is one of our biggest weapons.

I mean I agree but the jury is still out on this team. I would hold off making any judgements till we move to conference play. Mason's first game wasn't exactly the easiest of environments to play in. Andre grew up in front of us a lot tonight. Lance unfortunately took a step back tonight from his strong game vs. UConn. The front line needs to improve.


FINALLY.... SOMEONE GET JON A JUMPSHOT!!!!!!!!!!

[FerryFor50]

I mean I agree but the jury is still out on this team. I would hold off making any judgements till we move to conference play. Mason's first game wasn't exactly the easiest of environments to play in. Andre grew up in front of us a lot tonight. Lance unfortunately took a step back tonight from his strong game vs. UConn. The front line needs to improve.


FINALLY.... SOMEONE GET JON A JUMPSHOT!!!!!!!!!!

Another notable stat - Z only played 9 min, for those who thought he was in "way too much."

[geraldsneighbor]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204843489

The stats that jump out (some already mentioned) include:

Nolan shot 5-17
Dawkins did indeed play more minutes (22) than some realized
Zoubs and Lance combined for "0" points
Duke's defense in the second half held Wiscy to 34.5% FG

Nolan is now 10 for his last 39...

Jon took 7 shots tonight. He needs more than that. I'm sorry. Someone needs to get him the ball or set him a screen.

[Lulu]

I'd just like to say that despite my earlier comments on Dawkins I was well aware of the number of minutes he played. It just seemed that we never "called his number", whether that was intended, or his own decision, or if he just waited for Coach K to tell him to start shooting at the end we may never know...

[geraldsneighbor]

Another notable stat - Z only played 9 min, for those who thought he was in "way too much."

Haha I like Zoubs but he almost found time to foul out in those 9 mins.

[FerryFor50]

Haha I like Zoubs but he almost found time to foul out in those 9 mins.

True. Was not one of his better games.

[geraldsneighbor]

True. Was not one of his better games.

Very reminiscent of his season debut last year vs. Presbyterian.

[Jumbo]

I'd just like to say that despite my earlier comments on Dawkins I was well aware of the number of minutes he played. It just seemed that we never "called his number", whether that was intended, or his own decision, or if he just waited for Coach K to tell him to start shooting at the end we may never know...

I think it was more the result of unusually poor ball movement -- Dre's job was to space the floor in the corner. That's also another reason why I think people are drawing far too many conclusions from this loss. Generally, we're a better passing team than we showed tonight, and that's another aspect that absolutely should improve with time. I don't expect Dre to get lost in the corner as much as time goes on.

[gwwilburn]

Trying to calm myself, I have thought of something.
Remember last year against Michigan? That wasn't such a great team. We were coming of a big win versus a ranked team (Purdue). It was about this time of year. Exam time.
2006. Played a huge game against Pitt. Blew a huge lead and the game went into overtime. December.
Remember 2005. Duke needed a prayer at the buzzer to beat Va. Tech, and then barely hung on to beat Penn. Both games were at home. December again.
None of these teams went to the final four, but I'm just saying this has happened three out of the last four years. Yes, there are problems. But I think the pessimism may be a little premature. But, I'm an optimist.

[Jumbo]

I am looking for possible positives here. Is this something that we can work on and realistically improve upon? Should we play less zone? What do you think? I'd appreciate any additional insight on this matter.

I think we're a good man-to-man D that struggled with an unusual offense in a hostile environment. I don't think we should play a lot of zone. Sure, it's an area we can improve, but I think given the youth of the Plumlee brothers, there's even more hope for Duke's man-to-man -- particularly the help D -- to improve as the year goes on. So there's a major potential positive -- Duke will have two long, mobile bigs whose defensive IQ should increase as the year goes on. That should absolutely result in better help D.

[Jumbo]

Trying to calm myself, I have thought of something.
Remember last year against Michigan? That wasn't such a great team. We were coming of a big win versus a ranked team (Purdue). It was about this time of year. Exam time.
2006. Played a huge game against Pitt. Blew a huge lead and the game went into overtime. December.
Remember 2005. Duke needed a prayer at the buzzer to beat Va. Tech, and then barely hung on to beat Penn. Both games were at home. December again.
None of these teams went to the final four, but I'm just saying this has happened three out of the last four years. Yes, there are problems. But I think the pessimism may be a little premature. But, I'm an optimist.

You can take that a step further, too.
Our last Final Four team, 2003-04 (a really, really good team) lost a game in late November in Alaska against unranked Purdue.
The 2001-02 team (superbly talented) lost at unranked Florida State in early January.
You can go back and find similar losses for virtually all of Duke's best teams. This was a tough loss. Let's not make it into anything more than that.

[FireOgilvie]

Are you really judging him based on his first game back, as a freshman, after missing a month with a broken wrist? Really? I'm much more willing to trust his teammates and coaches, who have touted him highly since the summer. And from what I've seen of him, he's going to be very, very good later this season. Let's not overreact based on one game, let alone this one game, okay?

No, I'm not. I'm judging him based on how he looked in high school and the exhibition games. He barely played tonight, and I said earlier that he unsurprisingly looked a step slow from his time off. I saw surprisingly little development from him, on offense in particular, from high school to the exhibition games (where we were playing only 1 small level above high school level competition). Like I said before, he has no post moves, and his touch around the basket is decent, but not great, when he gets in position (which he can't do that well against bigger players). I have a pretty good track record of judging talent on this board, so try to at least give me some credit. I was probably the first or one of the first people who said Eric Bledsoe was actually really good when we first started hearing about him. I said probably over a month ago that we shouldn't expect Mason to be better than Miles this year based on what I've seen in the past, and so far I've been right. Miles has a year of experience and looks a lot more comfortable out there. I was also probably the first or one of the first to say we should expect breakout years from Miles and Nolan. Right now, Mason is visibly smaller than Miles, and he has not developed the ability to play the physical game that Miles has. I'm sure Mason will be a contributor this year, but I don't expect him to be our "4th best player" like a lot of people are saying. I agree that we can't judge anything from tonight for Mason.

[gwwilburn]

You can take that a step further, too.
Our last Final Four team, 2003-04 (a really, really good team) lost a game in late November in Alaska against unranked Purdue.
The 2001-02 team (superbly talented) lost at unranked Florida State in early January.
You can go back and find similar losses for virtually all of Duke's best teams. This was a tough loss. Let's not make it into anything more than that.
Nice point. However, I kind of failed at getting my point across. This may sound like a lame excuse, but at a place like Duke, December's a tough month. Even for the athletes. I think K even referenced exams and the accompanying work following last years loss at Michigan. Nice post, again.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Too many turnovers. Not enough assists.

[calltheobvious]

Questionable coaching by K and terrible execution by Kyle Singler down the stretch... no excuses.

Also, Mason wasn't ready for this.

I'll say more when I've had a chance to think more.....

I thought the same thing as I was watching him play tonight, and I wondered how K could not have foreseen this. I may be demonstrating that I'm susceptible to the infallible-Krzyzewski bias, but I've come to think that K knew Mason wasn't truly ready basketball-wise, but threw him out there anyway because he was physically ready. If that seems too far-fetched, then just save yourself the trouble and stop reading now.

But if you believe as I do that K has seen enough freshman play in early road games to have a pretty good idea going in of how they're going to react, his decision to play Mason substantial minutes tonight sends an important and very positive signal. It tells me that K thinks highly enough of Mason's potential development this season that he values every game he can safely get for the kid. Sure, he could have held him out until St. John's or Gardner-Webb, possibly giving Duke a little better chance in tonight's game, but he chose not to (fwiw, my theory on tonight's game is that if you eliminate the chemistry disruption caused by a new guy playing significant minutes, it's enough to get over the hump, even with the rest of the team's ailments).

I think he's saying that Duke's best chances when it really matters are with Mason Plumlee being a huge part of things, and that there's no sense delaying the development of that "team" one game longer than necessary. K knows as well as the rest of us that we might look up on Selection Sunday one win away from a higher seed, but that there are bigger fish to fry for this team than trying to scratch out a seed in November at the expense of long-term chemistry.

(Please save the "It's ridiculous to think K didn't care about winning this game" responses, because that's not the argument here.)

[geraldsneighbor]

Nice point. However, I kind of failed at getting my point across. This may sound like a lame excuse, but at a place like Duke, December's a tough month. Even for the athletes. I think K even referenced exams and the accompanying work following last years loss at Michigan. Nice post, again.


It most definitely is a tough month. Its a month that has very little game action as the games are placed around the exams and holiday break. So a rythym this time of year is tough to achieve. My biggest fear right now is as we try and develop the Plumlee's, Dre, and to an extent Kelly, we wear out Jon, No, and Kyle.

I think this team needs Nolan to set Jon up more than he has. Too much of this offense ends in Nolan and Kyle (even though Kyle played great tonight). For your best jump shooter to only get 7 shots in a game your battling back in is a tough pill for me to swallow.

I believe as I had posted in April when G declared, this team was going to need Jon and Kyle to average around 18 a piece and Nolan to average 14. Nolan will probably be there but he needs to be much more efficient than he currently is.

Hats off to our defense in the second half. The effort I thought improved a lot and the work on the glass was much better.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Good offensive post play usually comes down to two things...

1) Where does the big man catch the ball in the paint?

2) When does the big man catch the ball?

Duke bigs are not sealing off their position in the offensive flow and staking claim to the prime spot under the rim, and its a combination of too slow, (Zoubek) not strong enough to hold (Thomas) or not understanding where to be, when (Plumlees).

The problem is compounded when Duke wings are not delivering the ball inside to them at the right time when they do get position.

The good news is it can all be improved on and you do have two young players (Plumlees) that have the hands, size, strength and quickness to play at the highest level. Most teams don't have that.

[BlueintheFace]

Good offensive post play usually comes down to two things...

1) Where does the big man catch the ball in the paint?

2) When does the big man catch the ball?

Duke bigs are not sealing off their position in the offensive flow and staking claim to the prime spot under the rim, and its a combination of too slow, (Zoubek) not strong enough to hold (Thomas) or not understanding where to be, when (Plumlees).

The problem is compounded when Duke wings are not delivering the ball inside to them at the right time when they do get position.

The good news is it can all be improved on and you do have two young players (Plumlees) that have the hands, size, strength and quickness to play at the highest level. Most teams don't have that.

Mason may not have been ready for what came right at him defensively, but I will say that I saw him do a good job establishing position in the post a number of times. Jon looked right at him and passed the ball along the perimeter.

[Jumbo]

No, I'm not. I'm judging him based on how he looked in high school and the exhibition games. He barely played tonight, and I said earlier that he unsurprisingly looked a step slow from his time off. I saw surprisingly little development from him, on offense in particular, from high school to the exhibition games (where we were playing only 1 small level above high school level competition). Like I said before, he has no post moves, and his touch around the basket is decent, but not great, when he gets in position (which he can't do that well against bigger players). I have a pretty good track record of judging talent on this board, so try to at least give me some credit. I was probably the first or one of the first people who said Eric Bledsoe was actually really good when we first started hearing about him. I said probably over a month ago that we shouldn't expect Mason to be better than Miles this year based on what I've seen in the past, and so far I've been right. Miles has a year of experience and looks a lot more comfortable out there. I was also probably the first or one of the first to say we should expect breakout years from Miles and Nolan. Right now, Mason is visibly smaller than Miles, and he has not developed the ability to play the physical game that Miles has. I'm sure Mason will be a contributor this year, but I don't expect him to be our "4th best player" like a lot of people are saying. I agree that we can't judge anything from tonight for Mason.

And as somoene not given to hyperbole on these boards, I respectfully suggest that you will be proven wrong.

[geraldsneighbor]

Mason may not have been ready for what came right at him defensively, but I will say that I saw him do a good job establishing position in the post a number of times. Jon looked right at him and passed the ball along the perimeter.

Agreed, the only touches Mason got were 20+ feet from the basket.

[FireOgilvie]

And as somoene not given to hyperbole on these boards, I respectfully suggest that you will be proven wrong.

So you really think he's going to be our 4th best player soon? I hope you're right. He has some catching up to do with Andre and Miles. If he's our 4th best player at the end of the year, we're going to be really really good.

[DukeBlood]

First off, Congrats to Wiscy. They played their game and forced Duke to it. Duke missed alot of open shots, and played poor D. Alot of things to learn from this game and move forward. Just a sloppy game from Duke on the Defensive side.(Give credit to Wiscy for some of that).

Singler had a good offensive game, and maybe the best defensive game, although it was slightly above average. Nolan Smith I love your game, but sometimes you got to keep your head up and hit the open perimeter player's. He forced alot. I wouldn't be surprised to see him driving and kicking it out in the future.

Oh well, Im not here to vent. Everyone should give Bo Ryan and his Badgers their props.

[Troublemaker]

Most, if not all, of the other top 10 teams would've lost to the Badgers tonight as well. Road losses to inferior teams happen all the time in basketball. NBA fans are experienced with this but college fans can sometimes forget early in the season. Take the loss in stride. Wisconsin is a good team. They were hot and playing in front of a raucous crowd and would've been difficult for anyone to beat tonight.

[feldspar]

What a godawful game.

Nolan forced way too much.

Our defense was atrocious.

Kyle forced way too much.

And again, the defense was atrocious.

I hope this team at least learns something from the debacle in Wisconsin.

Blech.

ETA: When you need a 3-pointer at the end of the game, would it not make sense to put in the guy who hasn't missed a single one all game? What am I missing??

[BlueintheFace]

Any word on that last play? Anybody have post game comments?

[1999ballboy]

The big story about this team in the preseason was our size. This was going to be the biggest team Coach K had ever had. Kyle was no longer going to be bogged down in the power forward spot, he was going to be exclusively on the perimeter where he could play "his game."

I never bought that. First, it's not the biggest team he's ever had- 2003 was bigger. Saying this team was "big" was in many ways a euphemism for saying we were thin at guard. And keep in mind, a lot of this talk was left over from before we knew that Andre would be forgoing his senior year. And while I agree that Kyle is a better perimeter player than a big man, we're still going to need him to play quite a bit of 4 this year. And that shouldn't be a concern.

Even with Mason, right now, putting our best 5 guys on the floor together requires playing 3 guards, with Kyle at the 4. This is the lineup we went with in the second half today and while we didn't win, we were better than we were in the first half, and it was absolutely the right decision by Coach K. Andre played almost the entire second half. Zoubs got into foul trouble early. And Mason perhaps shouldn't have even come back tonight, though his minutes were pretty limited. Though I agree with FireOgilvie that Miles will be better than Mason this year, I love Mason's potential. But unless he shows he can play with the top big men in the country right off the bat, this isn't gonna be the remarkably different Duke team that a lot of people have made it out to be.

Bob Knight was right on the money today in saying that our weaknesses are still up top. Musberger seemed surprised to hear that- as was I. Not because it was wrong, but because no one else has been saying it. Tonight our guards had subpar games, and our team couldn't overcome that. Mason's integration into the team is important, but Scheyer and Smith playing consistently is more so. Nolan in particular has got to play within himself more and stop forcing drives and shots. He is a brilliant player when he plays within his ability, and a dangerous one when he doesn't.

[Jumbo]

So you really think he's going to be our 4th best player soon? I hope you're right. He has some catching up to do with Andre and Miles. If he's our 4th best player at the end of the year, we're going to be really really good.

Soon? I don't know -- it's hard to tell how much missing the first month will affect him. But by the end of the season? Yes. I've heard fans pump up players who have turned out to be disappointments, but I've never heard both a Duke players teammates and Coach K rave about someone the way they did Mason, and have that player fail to live up to expectations. I don't know if he'll be a great post scorer right away -- that will take more than a year. But he'll catch and finish, pass and move, provide an extra ball-handler, clean up offensive rebounds and play excellent D, both on the ball and in help situations, which will enable us to extend our pressure.

Andre is an excellent shooter, but has a significant amount of work to do on his ballhandling and defense. Miles is just not as skilled as Mason, although I like what I'm seeing out of him and feel that with more confidence, he can really help this team.

I've thought all along that Mason Plumlee will be very good, and this team has tremendous upside. A loss at Wisconsin is not going to change that.

[Jumbo]

Any word on that last play? Anybody have post game comments?

Haven't seen any post-game quotes yet, but I've watched it several times and it absolutely was a designed play. Miles screened for Jon, who, as I mentioned, ran a banana curl toward the sideline. The other two guys were already stationed down the court in shooting positions.

[nyr484]

What a godawful game.

Nolan forced way too much.

Our defense was atrocious.

Kyle forced way too much.

And again, the defense was atrocious.

I hope this team at least learns something from the debacle in Wisconsin.

Blech.

ETA: When you need a 3-pointer at the end of the game, would it not make sense to put in the guy who hasn't missed a single one all game? What am I missing??

The whole team forced way too much. 11 assists and 11 TO's is not good for any team, but for Duke this year 11 assists is not going to cut it against solid competition. We don't have the personnel to iso and score consistently. The team is better when we motion and run plays. I would estimate we forced up contested low percentage shots on about 6 to 8 possessions tonight, (including a few bad shots by Smith and at least 1 really bad shot in crunch time by Singler). I don't expect a wide open look on every possession, but at the same time I think forcing a bad shot with 16 seconds left on the shot clock is def not ideal. Not the end of the world b/c it's something we can fix, but nevertheless a little disappointing.

[Poincaré]

A prediction based on gut feeling: K gets sick of playing big and goes back to small ball, Andre Dawkins starts.

I failed to realize that this is already happening. Minutes for tonight: Kyle=40, Nolan=37, Jon=39, Andre=22.

Who exactly did Andre Dawkins sub for? A little math and we can figure out that for a minimum of 18 minutes, Dre was replacing Lance/Miles/Zoubek, not one of our wings.

[Jumbo]

What a godawful game.

Nolan forced way too much.

Our defense was atrocious.

Kyle forced way too much.

And again, the defense was atrocious.

I hope this team at least learns something from the debacle in Wisconsin.

Blech.

ETA: When you need a 3-pointer at the end of the game, would it not make sense to put in the guy who hasn't missed a single one all game? What am I missing??

Was the D really that bad if it held Wisconsin to 34.5 percent shooting in the second half?

And as far as Nolan's drive goes, I have no problem going for the quick 2 with seven seconds left. If he hits the layup (rather than needing the tip in), and even after the tip in, Duke had plenty of time to set up its D, down 1. Maybe we get a steal. We didn't. Worst case, we're down 3 with 4.9 seconds left, which is still plenty of time to set up for a game-tying 3. We just didn't execute a strangely called play.

[socaldukie]

Extremely dissapointed at a lack of poise for a veteran team. Far too many mistakes and lack of focus, effort, and just unable to get the job done. This has to get much better. I am not surprised by the Wisconsin effort. But, for the chances we had and the end result is very disheartening.

[nyr484]

Was the D really that bad if it held Wisconsin to 34.5 percent shooting in the second half?

And as far as Nolan's drive goes, I have no problem going for the quick 2 with seven seconds left. If he hits the layup (rather than needing the tip in), and even after the tip in, Duke had plenty of time to set up its D, down 1. Maybe we get a steal. We didn't. Worst case, we're down 3 with 4.9 seconds left, which is still plenty of time to set up for a game-tying 3. We just didn't execute a strangely called play.

Agreed. D was not the issue tonight. UW had some ridiculous shooting in 1st half despite decent coverage on most possessions. In 2nd half our D was excellent aside from a few possessions that come to mind, especially the one where there were 2 (or maybe 3) offensive rebounds followed by a Hughes 3-pointer.

[eightyearoldsdude]

I failed to realize that this is already happening. Minutes for tonight: Kyle=40, Nolan=37, Jon=39, Andre=22.

Who exactly did Andre Dawkins sub for? A little math and we can figure out that for a minimum of 18 minutes, Dre was replacing Lance/Miles/Zoubek, not one of our wings.

Yep. Saw these numbers posted on TDD:

Thomas, Plumlee, Zoubek and Plumlee.

62 minutes, 14 rebs, 2 assists, 2 blocks, 5 turnovers, 11 fouls.

6 points.

[ojaidave]

Good win by Wisconsin, they didn't fold when they had the opportunity.

Duke, after having clawed its way back into the game and down 2, short arms an airball. Wisconsin scores. Duke comes back down the floor and throws up another air ball. Wisconsin is back in control.

That long pass at the end was definitely a called play. It just didn't work out. Remember that great Grant Hill to Laettner pass against Kentucky? It had failed in a game earlier that season. K is coaching for the long haul - nothing simulates big time game pressure than big time game pressure. Best to work on things in December than March, I'd say. The freshmen were lost quite a bit on defense today - that happens.

Again, hats of to Wisconsin. Good win tonight. Duke is going to be scary good by the end of the season.

[Reisen]

A few absolutely atrocious calls, including the blocking foul on Singler when I have rarely seen a clearer charge. These refs were horrible.

That said, I'm amazed at how some of our big men tend to dissapear. We also need to play smarter...

I chalk this one up to some poor execution on our part, and a whole lot of luck on Wisconsin's. Lots of circus shots went in tonight, and only a few of them were ours.

[Edouble]

IMO, the reason we are all gawking at the seemingly bad coaching is b/c I still hold the belief that Coach K is not opposed to tanking an early season game if he thinks it will help the team in the long run. I'm quite sure he has their attention now. Putting Mason into a game like this, that he clearly wasn't ready for, further indicates to me that the end score was far less important to Coach K than this night's impact on the overall journey. We need Mason at peak level if we want to be playing in late March/early April.

Nolan needs to rethink his game a bit. I understand he wants to attack, but to me a dribble drive into a fadeaway does not equal "attack". If he doesn't like the look of the Badger's bigs, then kick it over to Scheyer. Otherwise, go to the rim young man!

Kyle is on another level offensively than the rest of the team. When he forces it, it's different than when Nolan forces it b/c Kyle is so damn good. I'm not sure how the statistics will play out when all is said and done, especially with Kyle's move to the perimeter this year, but Kyle is really one of the best rebounders Duke has ever seen. With Dawkins playing 22 minutes and Kyle playing 40, Kyle was essentially (based on who he was being guarded by) playing 3 for half the game and 4 for half the game. I still think that Kyle is the best 4 in college ball, but I'm not yet convinced he's the best 3. I just love having Kyle under and around the basket. He goes up strong and really threads the needle around post defenders, something that our bigs don't have. I want us to threaten other teams in the paint, and if Kyle gets it done, so be it. He can't carry us every game though.

LT is an enigma. This game seems like the perfect showcase for his abilities, but he didn't have a strong showing. It's hard not to like Lance and Brian as people, but they can be frustrating to watch on the court. After UConn, I would think Lance would come up big tonight, but he didn't. It's hard to ignore the potential psychological impact of having Mason in uniform ready to check into the game. Subconsciously, LT may feel threatened by Mason, or even guilty over having a good game when he's "taken" Mason's starting spot. The mental strain of having Mason back and playing in such a hostile arena may have gotten the better of LT. I know many will laugh at this, but basketball is a mental game. The kid played out of his mind in MSG, our home away from home, and today he's a no show. So what changed? What contributed to LT being out of his comfort zone?

I think everyone here would agree that Zoub's 9 minutes played seemed more like 15-18.

In a best case scenario, by March the team develops into an eight man rotation with Kyle, Nolan, Jon, Dawk, and the two Plumlees playing a bulk of the minutes with Lance coming off the bench for defense, and Z getting minutes based on our opponent. I hope that Ryan is ready for an opponent like this by the end of the year, b/c like Lance, this seems like the kind of game where he should really shine.

[Oriole Way]

Duke got lost a lot on offense in the first half. Smith took a lot of bad shots, they didn't get anyone but Singler involved, and Scheyer really struggled.

On the positive side, with Dawkins playing like he is, he is going to force Duke to get him involved offensively earlier in the game.

That would require Coach K to give him the minutes he deserves first.

Dawkins lost his man towards the middle of the first half, it resulted in a score, and you could tell Coach K was really peeved with him. Just like with Elliot Williams last year, K benched Dawkins because he was upset with his early defensive mistake. Not until the game was almost out of hand in the second half did our best shooter get a chance to pull us back in the game. Without Dawkins, we would have lost by 10+ and had NO chance to win. In the future, I would like to see Dawkins get 10-12+ minutes in the first half. The way K has handled Williams and Dawkins early in the freshman seasons is really alarming to me. I don't want to see this become a trend.

I beg and implore K to let Dawkins play through his mistakes. The best way for a young player like Dawkins to learn from his mistakes is to have an opportunity to recover from them while IN the game, not sitting on the bench. The next time Andre misses an assignment or doesn't defend his man appropriately, I would like to see K point out the mistake, and give Andre the chance to improve on it over the next series of plays over the next few minutes. Giving Dawkins a steady diet of minutes, especially after he makes his first appearance of the first half, and whether he makes mistakes or not, will help him with his development immensely.

I look forward to seeing how the team responds over the next few games, but it's discouraging to see the team lose in the same way they have over the past 3 or 4 seasons (poor shot selection, getting down double digits in the second half only to make a futile rally late, if at all, stagnant offense, porous defense at times). I really believe Mason had trouble adjusting to the team, and the team had trouble adjusting to him, which is perfectly understandable in very first collegiate game. It certainly wasn't the most ideal environment for a debut coming back from a fairly significant injury.

Wisconsin shot extremely well and played great. There were a few suspect calls made by the referees tonight, but that should be expected on an opposing teams home floor, with who I am guessing are Big 10 officials (could be wrong there). Big 10 officials are notorious for allowing more physical play than most conferences, so we shouldn't be surprised by some of the questionable no-calls.

However, I am discouraged by how K continues to put a stranglehold on his rotation in these types of games. It resulted in Dawkins not getting enough time until it was too late. Would have liked to have seen Kelly get some PT, especially because his size and passing might have been a benefit to our offensive sets.

I will reiterate what I said after the Arizona State game for what I believe this team needs to do to improve:

- Play Zoubek and Thomas less

- Play Dawkins more. And maybe throw a little Ryan Kelly in there.

- Stop having our bigs switch off, or hedge too strongly, when playing man to man. This is the only area of concern I feel has been improved upon since the ASU game.

- Set screens for Nolan Smith EVERY time he is isolated with his man on the perimeter. I once again saw multiple Nolan Smith drives where he took his man towards the basket on the dribble without the benefit of a screen and he would not be able to convert on his shot attempts, whereas I felt a screen would have allowed for a much better shot opportunity for Nolan. Nolan really needs to work on his shot selection anyway, but I feel an abundance of screens will make the game easier for him and make the offense better as a whole.

There were some questionable tactical decisions by K and the staff in the final minute... I would have liked to have seen a 3-pointer attempted instead of the Nolan Smith drive. The inbounds pass from Singler was sent way too far out towards mid-court with that much time remaining. It was poor execution by Singler, but the play call wasn't appropriate for the amount of time left (inbounds pass should have been made closer to 3/4's court on Duke's side of the court). Andre Dawkins hit 4 straight 3's.... not giving him a 5th attempt was a mistake, especially since he very likely could have drawn a foul just by touching the ball and starting to take a shot. K absolutely needed to draw up a play or plays for Dawkins, especially instead of the Smith drive.

But that's just my Monday Morning Quarterbacking. I hope the team (and staff) learns from the loss, and I look forward to seeing what Mason Plumlee brings to the table in the upcoming weeks.

[Bob Green]

That would require Coach K to give him the minutes he deserves first....However, I am discouraged by how K continues to put a stranglehold on his rotation in these types of games. It resulted in Dawkins not getting enough time until it was too late....

I believe you are making a mountain out of a mole hill with your comments on Dawkins' playing time. He played 22 minutes including almost the whole second half of the game.

Dawkins can shoot the ball lights out and he will play a lot of minutes this year.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Did not see the game. Only read the articles and stat lines. Will say that this looks like Singler's coming out party for the year. Hopefully he continues.

I don't think that this is Dawkins's coming out party. While 4-4 from 3 is absolutely nasty, I don't think he had enough opportunity to call it a "break out", "coming out party", etc.

[1999ballboy]

I'm getting a little tired of reading complaints about the coaching in this game. We were outplayed, plain and simple. We forced shots through most of the game whereas Wisconsin took excellent shots. We rushed, they were patient. They got the better of our defense more often than we got the better of theirs. There are always second guesses in close losses, particularly about coaching. Should Mason have returned this game? I questioned that myself, but it certainly wasn't the reason we lost. Should K have called a different play on the last inbounds pass? Perhaps, but that doesn't erase the fact that Singler threw a bad pass. No one was perfect tonight. This was a team loss.

[_Gary]

Haven't seen any post-game quotes yet, but I've watched it several times and it absolutely was a designed play. Miles screened for Jon, who, as I mentioned, ran a banana curl toward the sideline. The other two guys were already stationed down the court in shooting positions.

I'm sure it was a designed play. I just felt like, at least in real time, it took too long and Kyle was getting antsy about the 5 second clock. Plus, to be honest, with 5+ seconds left in the game I certainly wasn't looking for us to have to run that type of long pass play. Guess I was just taken off guard that we felt that was needed as opposed to just getting the ball in to either Jon or Nolan with a little head of steam heading up the court. And I probably imagined it, but I thought Kyle made a little motion that indicated he was wanting someone to come back to the ball. But I probably just imagined that. It was late and in spite of the close score, I was a bit tired. So I'll defer to everyone else on that one.

I'm a bit surprised at the "panic" I'm reading from several posters. Guys, this isn't the end of the world. We just came up against a team that was playing incredibly well for one night. It happens. And can't we give Mason more than one game back before we start saying he can't play? Geesh!

One thing I will say is that I believe, unfortunately, as the season progresses me might be shortening the rotation. I want a couple of our senior bigs to play well in the worst way, but it's getting tougher and tougher to keep believing they will contribute enough (especially on offense) to warrant a lot of time. I hope I'm wrong on this point, but I have a feeling we may be seeing more of a 6 man rotation in the 2nd half of close games this year. And that rotation will consist of Jon, Nolan, Andre, Kyle, Mason and Miles. I don't want us to shrink that much, but I'm a bit concerned that's where we might be headed if we don't see some more production out of other guys.

Gary

[bfree]

I'm not, and have never been, a basketball coach, but I think a big problem with our offense is that at nearly all times, Duke has a player on the court who seems to be banned from taking more than one dribble on the perimeter.

Z, Miles, Mason, and Lance frequently got the ball at the top of the key or on the wing and stood around and looked for a pass and occasionally took one power dribble before making a handoff. That let their defender sag dramatically and clogged up any sort of penetration. I don't think Z is capable of breaking down a defender, but I do think he should be able to take a couple of dribbles and reset the offense. And Miles, Mason, and Lance should have the freedom to do something on the outside as to make them at least legitimate threats.

And in my opinion, this absolute lack of movement with the ball by our bigs seemed to be a command by the staff. It was so mechanical and predictable, I can't imagine it was anything else. If all the bigs are going to be allowed to do is screen, rebound, and dunk on alley-oops, they are pretty easy to defend.

And I think it is a problem....

[bfree]

Exactly. With that much time, the long pass seems unnecessarily risky. We even have a guy on the roster who has done it before!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0puJNjPIN94&feature=fvw


I'm sure it was a designed play. I just felt like, at least in real time, it took too long and Kyle was getting antsy about the 5 second clock. Plus, to be honest, with 5+ seconds left in the game I certainly wasn't looking for us to have to run that type of long pass play. Guess I was just taken off guard that we felt that was needed as opposed to just getting the ball in to either Jon or Nolan with a little head of steam heading up the court.

[RelativeWays]

This is like the Michigan game last year, they played with a high intensity and Duke look lost a lot of times. Duke recovered from that game, and they'll recover from this. The biggest disappointment was the lack of execution by our bigs for second chance points. Thats how big teams win, they rebound and stick the ball back up. Some of Lance's and Z's shots were buffoonish. They have to get better. Miles looks better in that regard but he is not really part of the Duke offense right now.

[_Gary]

Obviously I meant to say Kyle was getting antsy about the 5 second "count", not "clock." Just wanted to make that point clear. And perhaps it was just my imagination. I didn't tape the game so I don't have the advantage of going back and watching the entire sequence from the moment the ball went through the hoop till the ill-fated throw. So I might be wrong about the entire thing. If Kyle wasn't worried about the count then he really did make a horrible zip throw for no reason.

[Saratoga2]

Our astute Wisconsin fan pregame poster outlined his view of the upcoming game, and it proved to be a very accurate summary of the way the game was played. My memory of his comments were that he thought the W big men would play well, rebound with us and score away from the basket as well as score inside. He said W would crash the boards (they won the rebound margin by 2) and they would play a very disciplined offense with low turnovers. His main concern was how they could handle Singler, and that too proved to be aastute, since Singler gave them a lot of trouble. He had no comment on Dawkins, but I would have thought they would have missed on him.

My take on the game is that our man defense was terrible in the first half. When Jumbo does hiss analysis, I think we will find the lineup of Zoubek, Thomas, Scheyer, Smith and Singler played the worst.

The W man defense was better, and they made it difficult for Scheyer and Smith to get anything, while struggling to deal with Singler. Since our bigs, other than Miles were totally MIA offensively, that put us at a big disadvantage.

Our Zone worked better and gave us some hope, although we totally left it for the rest of the game. Coach K challenged the team to play better man in the second half, and they did, however not well enough to beat a good W team.

My specific thoughts are as follows:

Zoubek played a poor game. His lack of mobility, the tendency to give fouls at a high rate and his inability to put in chippies were all contributors to my saying this.

Thomas played decent defense but offered nothing at all on offense. We won't win against better teams if he gets a lot of minutes but doesn't contribute to the offense at all.

Mason was a freshman in playing against a seasoned team in a hostile environment. He didn't get a lot of minutes, and I wouldn't draw any conclusions about what he can do from this game. Chalk it up to a learning experience.

Miles was by far our most effective big man. The good news is his development is progressing well. His fouls are down and his athleticism can lead to good things. I don't think it is wise to have him passing from the top of the key area, as smart teams like W realize that he will neither put the ball on the floor or shoot from there. What W did is sag back and dare him to shoot. The guy who might do the best job of pasing from the key is Kelly. He has a shot from that distance and might become deadly given some confidence building. Passing to Miles and Mason down low might be a good one two punch.

Dawkins was pulled early in the game in a teaching moment and didn't get PT until the second half. When Duke decided to set up shots for him, he was deadly. Having him involved early would cause defenses to stretch and possibly give more opportunities for Smith and Scheyer.

In summary, W was a better and smarter team last night. Trevon Hughes torched us and their bigs outplayed our bigs throughout the game. Neither Zoubek nor Thomas played well in this game and are unlikely to develop during the season. Miles is our best inside man and Mason may become a major option, but it will take time. We need to take advantage of Dawkins shooting ability but setting up plays for him early and often. Singler is aa great player and will be tough to stop by most teams. Scheyer and Smith need to get their offense in the flow of the game.

After UCONN I thought we were a definite top ten team. I now am not so sure that we belong that high.

[jhworth]

My biggest concern coming out of the game is the lack of execution in the half-court offense. I know that Coach K relies heavily on the motion offense that liberates the players to do their thing; however, in crunch time the motion offense devolves into somebody trying to beat their man one-on-one. Singler and Scheyer are great but neither of them is going reliably to beat their man off the dribbble. The results are bad shots when you need them least.

Also, for all of Duke's new found size, let's face it- the 4's and 5's are used to set picks and rebound. Rarely is there an entry pass to a guy posted up on the block. This may be a personnel issue or a matter of style but I would love to see the bigs more involved in the offense as actual scoring threats.

[oldnavy]

Maybe I am nuts, but I see more positives from this game than negatives. I keep in mind that this is our 7th game of the season, in a very, very tough place to play, against a very good team with an outstanding coach. We had several opportunities to FOLD and we didn't (positive), we cut a large lead down and had a chance to tie at near the end (positive), Kyle played a great game (positive), Andre had a great offensive game, not just for a freshman, but for anyone. His shots were under pressure and HUGE, yet he knocked them down like it was warm ups (positive).

I wont list the negatives. There are a few, but I refuse to focus on them at this point in the season.

It's early December, we lost a road game to a very well coached team (that has beaten, what 3 ACC teams so far?) that played about as good as they are going to play.

We've been in worse spots and still come out just fine, I think this team will learn and be better for this loss.

[weezie]

You're not nuts. I agree completely. Jon's comments in the front page article were enough for me. Let Mason's wrist heal more and it's a whole different story.
Next game!

[Cockabeau]

1) Miles Plumlee. The kid makes one, just one defensive mistake and he gets pulled and then you see K on the sideline yelling at him. Let the young guys play through their mistakes. In this game, K subbed Z in for Miles to make a point and I think it costed us the win becuase Z was picked on almost everytime that led to about 10 or 12 points mostly on the pick and roll.

2)We are a jump shooting team AGAIN. Atleast pass it in the post every once in a while...jeez.

3)Shot selection. Both Kyle and Nolan looked like they were auditioning for the NBA next season.

4)Nolan Smith. Played like a freshmen. Shakey defense the whole game.

5) We should focus on a core of Kyle,Schyer,Nolan,Dawkins,Miles,Mason

[ScreechTDX1847]

umm im not sure, but he said "it wasn't fair"

may have misunderstood, but didnt think so

anyways. tough loss. on to st johns. we gotta get better!

The reporter commented on Dawkins shooting at the end and Bo sort of said, "Yea, its not fair (to have someone shooting like that in the last 2 minutes of the game)".

[ScreechTDX1847]

We got beat fair and square. Not enough motion in our offense and when our defense forced them to take perimeter shots...they made them.

Wisconsin's home court advantage as HUGE. When you let a team get up on you earlier (especially when your Duke) you will never get the crowd off your back. We were so close so many times to taking the lead and I think the crows willed buckets out of their team.

Also, I am sure we all saw Wisconsin running backdoor cuts every 5 seconds against our man. Well it got them 10-15 early points and that was the difference in the game. We need to swicth to zone when this happens (which we did) and maintain it until they find another way to beat it. I feel like K is too proud to depart from his man-to-man sometimes. It seems like every time we get beat out of conference its because coaches use our aggressive offense against us. ZONE!!!!!!!

[NYDukie]

I'm not going to go crazy and tear apart this game nor the Duke team. I will give credit to the Badgers because they are better than what their preseason Big Ten rank was and I think by the end of the year we will look at this loss as a good loss on the road at one of the toughest arenas to play agaisnt a top tier NCAA tourney BCS team. Bo Ryan always has his team ready and they are ALWAYS good. Bottom line, the Badgers outplayed the Blue Devils.

Some points:

1. Kyle proved to me and many others, he is the guy to get this team to where it needs to be. Hopefully, he has settled in to his SF role and Nolan and Jon can fall just in line behind him and provide consistent 2nd and 3rd options on offense.

2. We talk of playing 3 on 5 or 4 on 5 on offense at times. I think in Andre we have a precocious frosh who can be that other offensive guy. Yes, there will be growing pains but he seems to have the game and swagger to be that. Hopefully, he can be given some leeway on the defensive end by Coach K to work through freshman mistakes unless it becomes a consistently bad habit.

3. By January and the heart of the schedule the main players will be Kyle, Jon, Nolan, Mason, Miles and Andre. Depending on opponents and how guys are playing, our best combo of 5 will come from this pool. It is imperative that someone out of LT, Z or Kelly develop some form on consistency to their game to provide a quality 15 minutes or so a game to the above 6 don't burn out because Coach K will ride them if they are our best players, even if only 6 guys it makes.

4. Found some of the late game plays perplexing. Why is Kyle driving so deep on the drive next to the basket? Why is Nolan going for 2 with less than 5 seconds left down 3 on the road? I could live with it if there was a better designed play with 4 seconds left after we fouled. The issue is not the loss at that point but not even getting a shot off! The play seemed made for a sitation with 2 seconds left rather than 4. A play could have been set to be inbounds at the foul line at their end and then quickly drive it up or pass it up for a decent 3.

5. Get over the refs people. They were bad and inconsistent for both teams. How many times do we seem to get the benefit? Many times in deed! I will say the Singler block was horrendous and not have a semi circle in the lane to direct the refs in that type of call will become a big issue all over college basket ball this season.

6. Lastly, the General brought up a interesting point which I agree on. I know the teams "athleticism" has been brough into question and I think we are athlectic (ie. Miles and Mason's dunks and blocks, Kyle and Nolan taking their men off the dribble). But as the General said, the team as a whole and specifically most of the bigs are not "agile" as he mentioned. This supports many a posters point of noting that the team gets beat often off the dribble, off picks, etc. The team can go point A to B in a straight line pretty effective but anything laterally becomes a struggle in general for this team

All in all, a tough game and loss that will be a very good learning tool come later in the season.

[CDu]

Smith and Scheyer just didn't have strong nights. Tonight showed that we're very vulnerable when all of our big three aren't playing well. Thankfully Singler was amazing in the first half and Dawkins was amazing at the end. Otherwise, this game wasn't remotely close.

Smith has now struggled to varying degrees in each of his three games against stronger competition (coincidentally those are also the three non-home games). He's shooting 30.2% from the field (16.7% from 3) and has an assist/turnover ratio below one. Part of that is missing good shots, but he's making some poor decisions as well (which has led to the turnovers and a good number of the missed shots). He's going to have to play better. A lot is being expected of him. I just hope he's not trying to do too much, and that things start to fall into place for him. He looked very good against Charlotte and Radford. We don't necessarily need him THAT good all the time, but he needs to play much better than he has the past three games.

Scheyer had an off-night. He seemed to pick it up late in the second half, scoring four and getting a few assists down the stretch. But it's been a while since I've seen him look so quiet out there for so long. I have no reason to believe that he won't bounce back.

It also was just a pretty rough outing for our post guys. We're a big team, but that's not necessarily our best look right now. Our bigs are just very inconsistent. We'll go as far as our wings can carry us this season, unless the Plumlees can really progress. Thomas and Zoubek just aren't reliable enough to provide an impact for substantial minutes night in and night out. They can give us moments, and Zoubek in the right matchups for limited minutes can be very effective. But foul trouble and matchups seem to limit him to a 10-15 minutes guy.

We did play better defense in the second half. In the first half, Wisconsin shot well but also got a LOT of easy buckets off of back-door cuts and dribble penetration. In the second half, there was less of that. They just benefited by some great play by Hughes. He had 19 in the second half and that included some absolutely ridiculous shooting. Take away a few of those and a few of our mistakes, and we get the win.

Wisconsin played a great game though. They committed only FOUR turnovers all night, and eliminated any fast break opportunities. They also sagged off of our bigs up top and (aside from Singler in the first half) essentially took away our dribble penetration. We didn't see the fluid passing tonight, in part because Wisconsin played great positional defense and was rarely out of position.

It's a strange game when we shoot 45% from the field, 43% from 3, and 94% from the line and yet we're having to claw back just to make it a game at the end. But only forcing 4 turnovers can do that.

[rotogod00]

Other than a couple of weakside dunks by Plumlee, very few easy baskets. Our guards not being able to take people off the dribble for either a layup or a dump off to a big for a dunk, is going to be our achilles heel. Once again, we're essentially a jump shooting team. Hopefully as the season progresses and the Plumlees gain a little more experience, they'll both be more offensive presences in the paint.

[SMO]

Yeah... but you actually can win games by outscoring your opponent... something we've never learned but the folks 7 miles down the road have no problem with...

Uh...catch the Wake game at CIS last year? It's just one example but I'm sure there are others.

[Reddevil]

All in all, a tough game and loss that will be a very good learning tool come later in the season.

Couldn't agree more. The entire game I was thinking that this will be a great game to break down on film. Wisconsin exposed Duke's defense time and time again, but when the team gets another look at it they will make the adjustments that they couldn't make on the fly. The refs blew some calls, but no more than usual. The badgers made some amazing well defended shots, but Singler and Dawkins evened that out. Duke lost the game defensively. I have no doubt that will be fixed. Mason will get his feet under him, and this team will be a factor all season. All loses stink, but a loss in December against a good team at their place where the weaknesses can be freeze-framed during their video sessions can be extremely beneficial going forward.

[CDu]

2. We talk of playing 3 on 5 or 4 on 5 on offense at times. I think in Andre we have a precocious frosh who can be that other offensive guy. Yes, there will be growing pains but he seems to have the game and swagger to be that. Hopefully, he can be given some leeway on the defensive end by Coach K to work through freshman mistakes unless it becomes a consistently bad habit.

I agree. Dawkins is one guy who can be very useful in that he's a catch and shoot player (at the moment) who can stretch the defense without demanding to have the ball in his hands. He understands his role offensively, and isn't trying to do too much. Now, he's not going to shoot like this every night, but he's a weapon on the offensive end.


3. By January and the heart of the schedule the main players will be Kyle, Jon, Nolan, Mason, Miles and Andre. Depending on opponents and how guys are playing, our best combo of 5 will come from this pool. It is imperative that someone out of LT, Z or Kelly develop some form on consistency to their game to provide a quality 15 minutes or so a game to the above 6 don't burn out because Coach K will ride them if they are our best players, even if only 6 guys it makes.

I think that Thomas and Zoubek will remain in the regular rotation, but I do think that that last guy (and it probably will be Zoubek) will be limited to about 8-12 minutes per game. I think Thomas will stay in because of his experience, but he just has to be more consistently present on both ends of the floor. People are lauding his defense, but he makes plenty of mistakes on that end too right now. But I do think that, if we're going to get where we want to get, the top six will need to be the six you mentioned. I don't mean we need to force that to happen, but those are the six most talented players and we need them to play like it.


4. Found some of the late game plays perplexing. Why is Kyle driving so deep on the drive next to the basket? Why is Nolan going for 2 with less than 5 seconds left down 3 on the road? I could live with it if there was a better designed play with 4 seconds left after we fouled. The issue is not the loss at that point but not even getting a shot off! The play seemed made for a sitation with 2 seconds left rather than 4. A play could have been set to be inbounds at the foul line at their end and then quickly drive it up or pass it up for a decent 3.

The Singler play was just good defense and perhaps a rare moment of poor floor awareness by Singler. I think he also was hoping to draw the foul, and just didn't focus on getting off a good shot. As for Smith's layup, I'm 50/50. We scored, and if Wisconsin turns it over or misses one or more of the free throws, we have plenty of time (~5 seconds) to go for the win. We just blew the last position completely. It appeared that Singler panicked on the pass and gave Scheyer a real tough one to catch. On the other hand, if we hit a three (lower-percentage shot), we could send it to overtime and would have the momentum. It's a tossup in my mind.


5. Get over the refs people. They were bad and inconsistent for both teams. How many times do we seem to get the benefit? Many times in deed! I will say the Singler block was horrendous and not have a semi circle in the lane to direct the refs in that type of call will become a big issue all over college basket ball this season.

Agreed completely. The refs were not great, but they were not at all why we lost. They missed calls both ways - we as Duke fans just tend to focus on the bad calls that went against us.


6. Lastly, the General brought up a interesting point which I agree on. I know the teams "athleticism" has been brough into question and I think we are athlectic (ie. Miles and Mason's dunks and blocks, Kyle and Nolan taking their men off the dribble). But as the General said, the team as a whole and specifically most of the bigs are not "agile" as he mentioned. This supports many a posters point of noting that the team gets beat often off the dribble, off picks, etc. The team can go point A to B in a straight line pretty effective but anything laterally becomes a struggle in general for this team

Yeah, aside from Thomas (and maybe Mason - haven't seen enough of him yet), that was a pretty good description. Miles Plumlee has amazing leaping ability and good speed, but he's not the quickest laterally. Zoubek is also clearly not quick laterally. And while Thomas is very agile, he has trouble holding position down low and is prone to getting himself out of control. I think this is a big part of why our bigs aren't very consistent.

[Kevin in Pgh]

was what dukefanbrooklyn posted earlier, something to the effect of, "Too many turnovers, too few assists."

I know there were some defensive issues in the first half, but part of that was Wisconsin having a great shooting streak. I agree with those who say that the troubling part of this game was the offense, especially since it wasn't any good against UConn either.

Even when Singler was single-handedly keeping us in the game, the problem was that he WAS pretty much doing it on his own. When his shots stopped falling, you realized that he was forcing things and that can only work for so long.

I believe we were hurt by too much one-on-one play and an off night by Scheyer. I hope that was an aberration, rather than an indication that he is going to continue having trouble with smaller guards. I also hope we do a better job in the future of passing - setting guys up for good shots, whether it's a catch-and-shoot on the perimeter, or a good setup in the post (and I hope we find guys who can finish those!). We won't be making a run to the Final Four (which should be the goal) with these players trying to go one-on-one, rather than creating offense through good ball movement.

Oh, and I can't believe people are complaining about the refs. That blocking call on Singler was questionable, but I also saw the Wisconsin bench/fans doing a lot of complaining. Objectively, I don't think the refs really favored anyone here.

[NSDukeFan]

I'm a bit surprised at the "panic" I'm reading from several posters. Guys, this isn't the end of the world. We just came up against a team that was playing incredibly well for one night. It happens. And can't we give Mason more than one game back before we start saying he can't play? Geesh!
Gary

I agree completely with your above quote. Mason plays 10 minutes in a hostile environment after missing a month in his freshman season and based on that he isn't going to make an impact this year? When you say panic would you mean something like...?


This was a bad loss for anyone who thought that Duke would be able to run with the big dogs this year. Duke is a second tier team. Probably not news to alot of people but I fell (really wanted to believe) in the trap of the Duke players improving while everyone else stood still. The reality is that Duke has too many holes in this year's team to get past the Sweet 16 and 2nd place in the ACC.

I was dissappointed that Duke lost this game of toughness. Wisconsin is an okay team, nothing special. But they took this game to Duke and Duke did not respond. I thought that Singler, Scheyer, and Smith would be enough to win these kind of games this year. But they don't collectively appear to be consistent and sharp.

I like this team but their potential is no where near that of UNC or other top tier teams.

If one loss to a team that wins over 90% of its home games precludes teams from running with the big dogs, I think you will soon run out of big dogs.
I am pretty sure the players and coaches aren't ready to concede the ACC title and elite eight berth based on one early December loss. So UNC gets beat fairly easily by Syracuse (preseason unranked) at a neutral site and we lose by a single possesion on the road to one of the best home teams in the country and our potential is nowhere near that of UNC?

[DukeUsul]

1. Zoubek was in a bit too much for my liking, Miles hardly made a mistake all night and he didnt see the floor nearly as much as he should have. Bobby Knight was talking about how our bigs r our weakness, Miles could score on people. Miles plays good D. Miles is freakishly athletic. Mason will be the same when he is healthy but I did like to see coach K working him in tonight.

Zoubs played 9 minutes..... is that too much?


2. Why why why does Dawkins not play more. I was saying that even before the 4 threes.

Because his D isn't up to speed yet. 22 minutes is actually quite a lot of minutes considering where he is in his development.

[should_be_working]

I'm not sure why everyone's so upset with the officials. Did they miss some calls? Sure, they always do, but I thought they missed calls on both teams.

As for the judgment of taking charges, we all know its a horrible rule, but now its on the coaching staff and the players to adjust. What bothers me is that we have legitimate shot blockers out there, and I for one would rather see them contest shots instead of trying to draw charging fouls which are getting harder and harder to come by. Of course with the way they tend to foul this may not work either.

Bottom line,

Jon disappeared a bit tonight

nolan didn't have his best game

Z and lance didn't have an impact offensively

Wisconsin simply shot lights out (at least it seemed like it)

We played some awful defense, wished we would have played a little more zone in the 2nd half

Singler looked great until halfway through the second half where to me, he seemed to have run out of gas. Maybe its because he seems to have played every minute so far this season

Why no Ryan Kelly?

Execution and play calling was poor at the end

and finally, Hughes' (i think it was hughes) mini mohawk has to go down as one of the ugliest hair cuts of all time. Regardless, the kid can play.


This team is fine, we'll get better. I still have high hopes after an early season loss against a great team that shot extremely well, on the road, after a very intense and big win over a top 15 team...

[PhillyDuke]

Other than a couple of weakside dunks by Plumlee, very few easy baskets. Our guards not being able to take people off the dribble for either a layup or a dump off to a big for a dunk, is going to be our achilles heel. Once again, we're essentially a jump shooting team. Hopefully as the season progresses and the Plumlees gain a little more experience, they'll both be more offensive presences in the paint.


Dawkins' increasing notoriety puts him in position to start taking people off the dribble, to the hole and score or get an assist; that's if he's not relegated to standing around shooting jumpers.

[6th Man]

Why no Ryan Kelly?

I wondered the same thing. I realize he has a long way to go and is not physically where he needs to be, but why on earth do you not play him at all? How does this help Ryan? I think he has a good IQ, shoots pretty well for a big man. He will never get better if he doesn't play.

Also, why is our offense just taking your guy one on one. Timeout with 25 sec.s down by 2. All we can come up with is give it to Kyle and let him go one on two? Seems like some set plays would be nice to where you got an open look versus a wild drive hoping you get fouled. Maybe if you have Kobe or Lebron on your team I can see the strategy. Sorry, I just want to see more set plays. Get some open looks for some guys.

[PhillyDuke]

was what dukefanbrooklyn posted earlier, something to the effect of, "Too many turnovers, too few assists."

I know there were some defensive issues in the first half, but part of that was Wisconsin having a great shooting streak. I agree with those who say that the troubling part of this game was the offense, especially since it wasn't any good against UConn either.

Even when Singler was single-handedly keeping us in the game, the problem was that he WAS pretty much doing it on his own. When his shots stopped falling, you realized that he was forcing things and that can only work for so long.

I believe we were hurt by too much one-on-one play and an off night by Scheyer. I hope that was an aberration, rather than an indication that he is going to continue having trouble with smaller guards. I also hope we do a better job in the future of passing - setting guys up for good shots, whether it's a catch-and-shoot on the perimeter, or a good setup in the post (and I hope we find guys who can finish those!). We won't be making a run to the Final Four (which should be the goal) with these players trying to go one-on-one, rather than creating offense through good ball movement.

Oh, and I can't believe people are complaining about the refs. That blocking call on Singler was questionable, but I also saw the Wisconsin bench/fans doing a lot of complaining. Objectively, I don't think the refs really favored anyone here.

I don't like Scheyer playing point guard. He's a prolific scorer, and playing PG affects his jumper. As for those blocking calls against Thomas and Singler, they should have played defense instead and swatted those shots!

My question is: how did we let that scrubb Hughes light us up for 26 points!?! That was double his average!!!

[Kfanarmy]

My biggest concern coming out of the game is the lack of execution in the half-court offense. I know that Coach K relies heavily on the motion offense that liberates the players to do their thing; however, in crunch time the motion offense devolves into somebody trying to beat their man one-on-one. Singler and Scheyer are great but neither of them is going reliably to beat their man off the dribbble. The results are bad shots when you need them least.

Also, for all of Duke's new found size, let's face it- the 4's and 5's are used to set picks and rebound. Rarely is there an entry pass to a guy posted up on the block. This may be a personnel issue or a matter of style but I would love to see the bigs more involved in the offense as actual scoring threats.

For me the offense did look an awful lot like last years, only I couldn't tell what they were trying to do last night...Does anyone know what this offense is supposed to look like when the starters are in? when a guy drives shouldn't someone be moving to receive a pass if the drive stalls? Shouldn't the bigs be presenting themselves to the guy on the perimeter who has the ball? shouldn't the perimeter players be moving to open points on the floor when they don't have the ball? Shouldn't there be more passing and less one-on-one from the perimeter? I really couldn't tell what they were trying to do to gauge whether they do it well or not.

and finally, are there absolutely no set plays that are designed to get a guy a shot when you absolutely need a score?

[NSDukeFan]

I don't like Scheyer playing point guard. He's a prolific scorer, and playing PG affects his jumper. As for those blocking calls against Thomas and Singler, they should have played defense instead and swatted those shots!

My question is: how did we let that scrubb Hughes light us up for 26 points!?! That was double his average!!!

had a great game. Did you watch the threes he hit, a couple rainbows with a guy in his face? He played a great game and certainly did in no way, shape or form look like a scrub last night.

[RepoMan]

We aren't going undefeated. A road loss against a solid team early in the season is not a disaster. We had several opportunities to take a lead, but never made a play. I think that if we had ever crossed that threshold, the momentum could have changed significantly. I don't usually quibble with the rotation, but, in this game, with subpar performance from Z and LT, and in a game that seemingly would not have posed matchup problems for him, I was a bit surprised not to see us try to sprinkle in some Kelly. Gotta like what you see from Dawkins. Having a superior three point shooter is a real weapon, as we well know. Mason has a full month to round into shape before the ACC season starts, that should be plenty of time.

[feldspar]

Was the D really that bad if it held Wisconsin to 34.5 percent shooting in the second half?

We wouldn't have been down 6 (and probably would have been up) at the half if we hadn't allowed them to hit 53% in the first half. And there was a stretch in the second half where the missed three straight wide-open threes. Yes, our defense clamped down a bit in the second half, but their shooting also went cold.

Even the sideline reporter said last night that Coach K was all over the guys about having pride in their defense in the second half. I'm not sure why this is a point of dispute. The defense was not great last night.

[feldspar]

Because his D isn't up to speed yet. 22 minutes is actually quite a lot of minutes considering where he is in his development.

I don't buy this argument one bit in terms of why he wasn't on the floor at the end of the game for a 3-pointer. There was no need for a stifling defense in the final minute of the game, since it was clear we were going to put them on the free throw line. I've watched Andre's defense. It may not be the best on the team, but it's decent. Definitely decent enough to cover a man on an in-bounds play and foul him if necessary.

[superdave]

Andre - We need to run a few plays for Andre early to get him in the flow. Really commit to involving him and show defenses we can and will stretch the floor.

Post - Why did we not feed post at all last night? Kyle had a smaller defender a lot. I dont remember Miles getting fed and making a move. We have to commit to that too, or it's never going to be a part of our routine. We become a jump shooting team just because we wont feed the post and cannot get to the rim a lot.

Defensive Pressure - No fast break points. Zero. Zilch. We jumped the passing lanes only a couple of times. That's not Duke D.

Mason in the Rotation - Mason should pull minutes directly from BZ and LT. We cannot afford to have offensive liabilities out there against tournament caliber competition.

Good think we have some lesser competition coming up before the ACC starts. We need to get tuned up a little.

[Azdukefan]

I don't mean to get on the Z bash squad, but it was apparent early that this was not a game where he was going he be a valuable contributor. I would have like to have seen even more Andre and some R. Kelly and let Z sit this one. Their bigs were content with drawing away from the hoop and shooting jumpers. I don't think a switch from Z to Kelly would have changed their attack and Kelly might have been more adept and guarding them on the perimeter. I was highly dissapointed in everyone (minus.....Kyle and Andre). Nolan looked more involved in getting into with the crowd than he was focused on the game and Jon looked nothing like what we have seen out of him thus far. Hopefully this game was not an indication of things to come. Sorry to be such a downer but this game left a sour taste in my mouth.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

For me the offense did look an awful lot like last years, only I couldn't tell what they were trying to do last night...Does anyone know what this offense is supposed to look like when the starters are in? when a guy drives shouldn't someone be moving to receive a pass if the drive stalls? Shouldn't the bigs be presenting themselves to the guy on the perimeter who has the ball? shouldn't the perimeter players be moving to open points on the floor when they don't have the ball? Shouldn't there be more passing and less one-on-one from the perimeter? I really couldn't tell what they were trying to do to gauge whether they do it well or not.

and finally, are there absolutely no set plays that are designed to get a guy a shot when you absolutely need a score?


I agree, there was too much of Kyle and Nolan trying to break their defender down. Unacceptable that Scheyer could not get more open shots. Our bigs need to be more aggressive and that would help open things up a little. The last few possessions we had of the game (minus the botched Singler pass) I had no clue what we were doing. Just really poor execution. Why was Kyle driving and trying to throw up a prayer with 25 seconds? It was disappointing to see that we needed a freshman to light it up with 5 minutes in the game to keep us in it. We NEED Miles and Mason to step up!!

[feldspar]

Anyone else hear Bob Knight last night talking about Duke's lineup being not very "agile." Almost sounded like he was going for the word "athletic" and then caught himself.

Paraphrasing, he said "this is not a team with players who can fake right and then go left, so they have to beat you in other ways."

Can't say I blame him for making those comments considering how last night's game went.

[geraldsneighbor]

I'm modifying Dawkins' nickname to "Big Play Dre."

[Kfanarmy]

I agree, there was too much of Kyle and Nolan trying to break their defender down. Unacceptable that Scheyer could not get more open shots. Our bigs need to be more aggressive and that would help open things up a little. The last few possessions we had of the game (minus the botched Singler pass) I had no clue what we were doing. Just really poor execution. Why was Kyle driving and trying to throw up a prayer with 25 seconds? It was disappointing to see that we needed a freshman to light it up with 5 minutes in the game to keep us in it. We NEED Miles and Mason to step up!!

My point was really the whole game, not the final play...you can evaluate execution when you have an idea of what was supposed to be....for large stretches in both halves, I simply had no idea what they were TRYING to do...

[DukeUsul]

I don't buy this argument one bit in terms of why he wasn't on the floor at the end of the game for a 3-pointer. There was no need for a stifling defense in the final minute of the game, since it was clear we were going to put them on the free throw line. I've watched Andre's defense. It may not be the best on the team, but it's decent. Definitely decent enough to cover a man on an in-bounds play and foul him if necessary.

Well that's not exactly what I was addressing. The poster I was responding to was wondering why he didn't get more playing time in general. He actually got a pretty good amount of time. I wasn't addressing one particular play.

[DukeUsul]

I love all the analysis of the lineups in this thread. Z plays too much! (9 minutes) Ryan Kelly would have played great! (maybe) Let's develop our young guys even if they make mistakes (Dawkins) How can we have Mason play 10 minutes when he was making mistakes?

The discussion is better served focusing on our real problem. The inability to execute a proper motion offense. Passing. Ball movement. Entry passes into the post. Help defense.

[greybeard]

I wouldn't sit on every word that Mr. Knight says when it comes to Duke. I do not think that he is unbiased.

Singler might be "all that" as a 3 some day, as Knight says, but he is in the midst of making a HUGE transition and to me it shows in how this team plays. I could say the same thing about Sheyer, although he certainly has had much more time at his roll as a lead guard, but not nearly what other team's lead guards have had. It also shows.

So, you have two guys who occupy the ball in the most important parts of the game playing from perspectives that are not those from which they earned their keep for years and years. That produces all types of issues of timing, confidence, predictability not just for them but for everyone else.

I think that the biggest issue that Duke faces is the extent to which Singler makes the transition to a 3 as complete as Mr. Knight says he has. Heck, Mr. Knight has not even acknowledged that there is a transition going on. How come? To me, Kyle needs to develop an easy one or two dribble pull up game to play the 3 at anywhere near the level that he can play the 4. That part of his game needs to be money or those drives all the way to the basket can be stopped, especially when they count the most.

Right now the only Duke player with a proven pull up game is Smith. Smith, however, does not strike me as the scorer you want to be handling it on needed baskets. From what I saw on youtube, Kelly and Dawkins might have that game in them. Scheyer also but not when he is running the team as the lead guard. Too much to do.

To me, you want the ball in the hands of a player who can score the ball in three ways when you really need a basket. Singler is less that guy than guys who have played the 3 their entire careers. Hopely, in time, . . . .

I didn't see the first half, but have to think that Zoubek faces enormous internal pressure. Look, people miss gimmies and Zoubek plays with a rigidity in his torso that will make his doing so more likely the earlier in the play he gets the chance. Problem is, he misses and he is in trouble. I'm not quarreling with that, just saying that it is a tough situation.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Anyone else hear Bob Knight last night talking about Duke's lineup being not very "agile." Almost sounded like he was going for the word "athletic" and then caught himself.

Paraphrasing, he said "this is not a team with players who can fake right and then go left, so they have to beat you in other ways."

Can't say I blame him for making those comments considering how last night's game went.

Bobby might not be smooth with the tounge, but its a breath of fresh air listening to him break down what's happening on the floor from an X's and O's perspective. He was on top of the issues between player strengths and game situations last night.

Would love to see a big game with him and Bilas working...

[jv001]

I wouldn't sit on every word that Mr. Knight says when it comes to Duke. I do not think that he is unbiased.

Singler might be "all that" as a 3 some day, as Knight says, but he is in the midst of making a HUGE transition and to me it shows in how this team plays. I could say the same thing about Sheyer, although he certainly has had much more time at his roll as a lead guard, but not nearly what other team's lead guards have had. It also shows.

So, you have two guys who occupy the ball in the most important parts of the game playing from perspectives that are not those from which they earned their keep for years and years. That produces all types of issues of timing, confidence, predictability not just for them but for everyone else.

I think that the biggest issue that Duke faces is the extent to which Singler makes the transition to a 3 as complete as Mr. Knight says he has. Heck, Mr. Knight has not even acknowledged that there is a transition going on. How come? To me, Kyle needs to develop an easy one or two dribble pull up game to play the 3 at anywhere near the level that he can play the 4. That part of his game needs to be money or those drives all the way to the basket can be stopped, especially when they count the most.

Right now the only Duke player with a proven pull up game is Smith. Smith, however, does not strike me as the scorer you want to be handling it on needed baskets. From what I saw on youtube, Kelly and Dawkins might have that game in them. Scheyer also but not when he is running the team as the lead guard. Too much to do.

To me, you want the ball in the hands of a player who can score the ball in three ways when you really need a basket. Singler is less that guy than guys who have played the 3 their entire careers. Hopely, in time, . . . .

I didn't see the first half, but have to think that Zoubek faces enormous internal pressure. Look, people miss gimmies and Zoubek plays with a rigidity in his torso that will make his doing so more likely the earlier in the play he gets the chance. Problem is, he misses and he is in trouble. I'm not quarreling with that, just saying that it is a tough situation.

I'm not disputing anything you said, but you missed a great first half by Kyle. If not for his scoring, we would have been down 10-15 points at half-time. In the 2nd half Ryan put another defender on him. And at one time even had a guard defending him. The change of pace seemed to affect Kyle and he was not near as sharp as he was in the 1st half. The big problem was no movement of the ball. It seemed to be a lot like last year when the offense was Gerald controlling the ball and everyone else standing around. A lot of things for Coach K to work on in a short time before St. Johns. Go Duke!

[UrinalCake]

This is exactly why we need to schedule more TRUE road games out of conference. Come tournament time we must be prepared to handle an unfamiliar opponent, in a hostile environment, when we're not getting calls. I hope this experience pays dividends in March.

[NSDukeFan]

Andre - We need to run a few plays for Andre early to get him in the flow. Really commit to involving him and show defenses we can and will stretch the floor.

Post - Why did we not feed post at all last night? Kyle had a smaller defender a lot. I dont remember Miles getting fed and making a move. We have to commit to that too, or it's never going to be a part of our routine. We become a jump shooting team just because we wont feed the post and cannot get to the rim a lot.

Defensive Pressure - No fast break points. Zero. Zilch. We jumped the passing lanes only a couple of times. That's not Duke D.

Mason in the Rotation - Mason should pull minutes directly from BZ and LT. We cannot afford to have offensive liabilities out there against tournament caliber competition.

Good think we have some lesser competition coming up before the ACC starts. We need to get tuned up a little.

I agree with most of your post and that we didn't get in the passing lanes. The only problem is this is a difficult team to jump in the passing lanes on, because they were very disciplined with their passing and were looking for back door cuts to take advantage of any overplay. They were also very patient and handled the ball really well. It would have been nice to have been able to get more steals, but this was a challenging team to create turnovers against.

[superdave]

Bobby might not be smooth with the tounge, but its a breath of fresh air listening to him break down what's happening on the floor from an X's and O's perspective. He was on top of the issues between player strengths and game situations last night.

Would love to see a big game with him and Bilas working...

You nailed it. Knight is insightful and a pleasure to listen when he has room to really get going on X's and O's and tell some stories.

I do wish Brad Daughtery would come back from NASCAR though...

[feldspar]

This is exactly why we need to schedule more TRUE road games out of conference. Come tournament time we must be prepared to handle an unfamiliar opponent, in a hostile environment, when we're not getting calls. I hope this experience pays dividends in March.

Yeah, especially those pesky basket interference calls in the final minute of games.

Oh, wait...

[greybeard]

I'm not disputing anything you said, but you missed a great first half by Kyle. If not for his scoring, we would have been down 10-15 points at half-time. In the 2nd half Ryan put another defender on him. And at one time even had a guard defending him. The change of pace seemed to affect Kyle and he was not near as sharp as he was in the 1st half. The big problem was no movement of the ball. It seemed to be a lot like last year when the offense was Gerald controlling the ball and everyone else standing around. A lot of things for Coach K to work on in a short time before St. Johns. Go Duke!

Sorry I missed it. I think Singler is a terrific player and young man. He reminds me of Dave DeBusschere, with a little less bulk but greater lift. I think that this transition will take time and will serve him incredibly well.

Everything I had read about Wisconsin told me that Duke would have its hands full. That they came back and had a real chance at the end against a team that is as effective in the half court as Wisconsin, Wow.

[eightyearoldsdude]

IMO, the reason we are all gawking at the seemingly bad coaching is b/c I still hold the belief that Coach K is not opposed to tanking an early season game if he thinks it will help the team in the long run. I'm quite sure he has their attention now. Putting Mason into a game like this, that he clearly wasn't ready for, further indicates to me that the end score was far less important to Coach K than this night's impact on the overall journey. We need Mason at peak level if we want to be playing in late March/early April.

I don't buy this. If K was investing in the future, why play Singler, Scheyer, and Smith basically the entire game, and Kelly not at all? He's borrowing from March to pay December, IMO.

Other thoughts on the game:

1) Dawkins is a player. He's going to be a good one for you. I'm kinda torn about whether I'm glad he's playing for you this year (when I don't think you have a realistic chance at a title) or if I'd rather he stayed in high school (so I could watch you suffer). In any case, he's the real deal, and will do really well alongside Irving.

2) The offense is entirely on the wings. Bigs appear to be in the game to set screens, grab rebounds, and pick up the garbage. Mason obviously isn't 100%, but I remember watching him work hard to establish good post position, only to get pulled up to set a screen for Scheyer. That is pretty typical, IMO, and it's why it will be hard for K to recruit an elite center. Mobile power forwards who fancy themselves guards will continue to sign with Duke, but I just don't see y'all landing a top back-to-the-basket beast.

3) It was an impressive comeback, and no team should feel comfortable against Duke with a ten point lead and three minutes to go. I wish I could say the same about Carolina.

[Vincetaylor]

Anyone else hear Bob Knight last night talking about Duke's lineup being not very "agile." Almost sounded like he was going for the word "athletic" and then caught himself.

Paraphrasing, he said "this is not a team with players who can fake right and then go left, so they have to beat you in other ways."

Can't say I blame him for making those comments considering how last night's game went.

Ha. Yeah. I noticed that too. Maybe agile is the new athletic. Unfortunately, the difference in "agility" of our front line and UNC's is startling to say the least. Their's has more upside than our's too, considering that two of our front court guys are seniors and presumably at the "peak" of their games.

[jv001]

Sorry I missed it. I think Singler is a terrific player and young man. He reminds me of Dave DeBusschere, with a little less bulk but greater lift. I think that this transition will take time and will serve him incredibly well.

Everything I had read about Wisconsin told me that Duke would have its hands full. That they came back and had a real chance at the end against a team that is as effective in the half court as Wisconsin, Wow.

Dave DeBusschere, wasn't he a baseball pitcher also. Two sport pro player? Yes I underestimated Wisconsin. I had not seen them play nor did I know anything about them. So I predicted a 12 point win for the Devils. Then I read the post that the Badger fan wrote and I thought the game will be close. Just shows what an uninformed opinion can do. Make you look stupid. Well, next play.. Go Duke!

[Azdukefan]

I love all the analysis of the lineups in this thread. Z plays too much! (9 minutes).

Nine minutes four fouls. Those nine minutes would have been better served to be given to Kelly IMO.

[BD80]

... I want Bo Ryan to have that look surgically removed from his face...and inserted into another part of his body.

Reports have it that that other part already has that same expression. They look Edzachary alike.



This game will be a good teaching tool. Two things that should be learned:

NEVER pass the ball to Lance in the post while he is guarded.

Unless he has a clear path to the basket, Nolan must pass the ball twice per possession before shooting. I was shocked to see that Nolan had 2 assists.


Maybe it was the crowd noise, but it looked like we had critical lapses in communication on defense. The one inbound play when Nolan assumed Singler had switched on a pick that left a WIDE open three was egregious. Nolan had a really tough game defensively.

I realize that the coaching staff sees things in much greater detail and with keener perspective than any of us do, but when we were on offense, the lane looked to me like Times Square on New Year's Eve. We went small to stretch the D, but it didn't seem like we ever got the corner three that is such a big part of our offense. Hopefully, Mason and Ryan will develop into offensive threats This Year, and the staff's confidence in them grows to the point they get significant touches. They could stretch the D more than Z and Lance and Miles.

[Griff]

I'm new to the forums so I just thought I would start off by saying hey to everybody......anyways....

Last night what seemed to really kill us is that fact that we were not getting good quality shots within our offense....I love the fact that Nolan is being more aggressive this year....but he was 4-17 (I believe)...he needs to stay aggressive but also take a note from Wisconsin and be patient on offense and eventually something will open up if you make the other team defend hard every postion.

Also our helpside defense did not look too good last night but I think that could be attributed to the fact that wisconsin run the swing offense and Duke generally doesn't play man teams who run it.

[jv001]

I'm new to the forums so I just thought I would start off by saying hey to everybody......anyways....

Last night what seemed to really kill us is that fact that we were not getting good quality shots within our offense....I love the fact that Nolan is being more aggressive this year....but he was 4-17 (I believe)...he needs to stay aggressive but also take a note from Wisconsin and be patient on offense and eventually something will open up if you make the other team defend hard every postion.

Also our helpside defense did not look too good last night but I think that could be attributed to the fact that wisconsin run the swing offense and Duke generally doesn't play man teams who run it.

Good first post. Offense was stagnant and Nolan was stubbornly aggressive. He was hell bent on shooting the ball. Some poor shot selection. There were too many back door cuts in the first half and they were hot from outside. Built up their confidence. We'll learn from this loss. Go Duke!

[Troublemaker]

If Duke and Wisconsin replayed the game tonight, the one thing Duke could improve immediately is shot selection. Too many times, our guys took impatient, off balanced, or awkward prayer type shots that had low or near impossible odds of going in. Even the players who didn't shoot much like Z were guilty of this (he had an awful looking panicky off-balanced flip at the basket from 5 ft away). I think poor shot selection was the "Duke played bad" aspect of the game. We can play with much more poise and patience.

The "Give Wisconsin credit" aspect of the game (i.e. if the teams replayed tonight at Kohl, Duke would still have trouble in this area) was Wisconsin's excellent execution against our defense. It's tough to play against mobile bigs with good size that can shoot from outside but also handle the ball and pass to cutters without turning it over. Not many teams have those kinds of bigs, mind you, but Wisconsin does and they were able to spread out Duke's defense, pick us apart with passes and make it difficult for Duke to help on Hughes when he drove.

Wisconsin probably can't shoot that well away from home, and Duke probably can play better against that offense once Mason is up to speed, but at this point in time, Duke would have trouble getting a handle on that offense in Kohl. Duke tried to go small to match up better and also to get another offensive threat on the court in Dawk, but then we gave up several key offensive boards in the second half. Several times in the second half, we forced a missed shot and just had to squeeze the rock to be able to give us a chance to get momentum and we couldn't do it. Ultimately, I think Duke is best if Singler stays at the 3 and the Plumlees man the 4 and 5. We just have to be patient with Mason.

[Duke 81 LA]

My first post too --

Three things stood out for me last night --

1. One thing that few have mentioned is that Wisconsin had just 4 turnovers last night -- I don't have a Duke record book, but I can't recall a game in which a Krzyzewski-coached team produced that few turnovers from an opponent. In fact, I don't recall a game that in the shot clock era at Duke. Wisconsin really valued the ball and their patience was exemplary.

What was unusual is that there seemed to be so many instances in the second half in which UW ran down the clock, took a "prayer" type shot and had it go in (Hughes had at least two himself) -- they were real back breakers, but credit their patience.

2. Some posters have mentioned the absence of a motion offense resulting in a second half full of drive or drive-and-dish attempts that went poorly. I agree that was a major factor. To me, Smith and Scheyer were both having "off" nights in terms of moving the ball -- we don't share the ball very well under stress it appears -- also, Smith seemed less "into" the game than normal. And Scheyer seemed genuinely disturbed that he didn't get a few calls that he normally gets on his drives (non Duke fans would argue they are bail-outs anyway). I think Scheyer wanted to excel in front of many peers from Chicago who were at the game and he was grumpy in a way I haven't seen him in terms of court demeanor "ever" at Duke.

I actually think last night could be beneficial -- the Duke players watching tape of last night's game can't help but notice how WELL Wisconsin shared the ball -- maybe we will gain from that.

The offense seems to lurch along at times -- and here is part of the reasno -- Zoubek, Thomas and to a degree Miles Plumlee -- really are only capable as inside offensive threats and if they are only posted "low" they are in the way of the drives -- their defenders can help on drives by the 3 S's because Zoubek, Thomas and Miles are near the basket and Singler, Scheyer and Smith are not great at passing to them (nor are the big guys great finishers). That's a problem. I think Mason Plumlee will be the answer eventually. And so will Miles as he has showed in the early games, that he has a nice 10-12 foot range that should be utilized (he seems stuck inside when he is more capable as an in-out guy).

3. I agree with the notion that K was willing to take a loss to get Mason some minutes, in fact key minutes, when he was not really ready, in order to get him mentally toughened down the road. I think that was valuable and a good idea though it hurt us in this one -- I think Mason's 10 minutes interrupted some positive flow we have been getting from Thomas, Zoubek and Miles P to a degree. Having said that, his athleticism (there is that word again) will be a big help.

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

I wished Ryan Kelly would have gotten some PT last night. I hate seeing him ride the bench and I hope it doesn't take away from his confidence. I'm sure Coach K will play him when he is ready but dang, I have a gut feeling that Ryan can produce if given the chance to contribute.

[Duke 81 LA]

Ulimately (and it's going to be an evolution) I would like to see Kelly and both Plumlees on the floor more -- with their shooting ability (let's face it, Thomas and Zoubie don't have that ability to step out and knock down a jumper) they present more options offensively and open the floor more for Scheyer, Smith and Singler to drive, too.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

This is only directed at some posters who are ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I am glad there are lots opinions, but my goodness. This isn't a train wreck. I could turn into one, but we all want the team to peak in February and March. Peaking in December and beating the Badgers is nice, but means little in the scheme of things, unless you are a Dukie in those parts or have to hear some Duke hater laugh in your face about the game. Remember, he who laughs last or some such thing.

We are talking about our first true road game in DECEMBER against an opponent who with their current coach has only lost 10 times in that building (not sure how many wins, but I think he has been around a while). We saw Duke utilize a zone defense really well. We saw Duke start to get Mason back into the fold--a player coaches think has, to coin a phrase, great upside. We've already seen what others can do, the coaches think Mason will be the guy we need for both the ACC duels and in March. Before people complained a lot in here that Duke coaches would run their team into the ground winning at all costs. Probably putting Mason in was not going to be that productive for that particular game, don't you think Coach K knows this? Furthermore, don't you think he is looking for teaching tools?

I would much rather, if I had to pick a game, lose to Wisconsin (they really are nice folk up there) to UCONN. Against UCONN we won a championship. Granted the Big-10 /Acc Challenge was lost last night. ho hum. It wasn't a team championship. I read all sorts of chirping about how Coach Krzyzewski does not prepare his teams for March well anymore. Yesterday, though losing hurts and that is a tool too to remind the kids just how much it hurts, Duke was doing most of the things many posters complain that they don't do in December. Now they complain when they do it and lose to prepare for the ACC games and March. Oy vey.

Furthermore, it is OK to be a gracious loser too and give Wisconsin their props. Duke wasn't playing ghosts out there. They were playing a well coached team that made some really tough shots and showed a lot of patience, heart, and emotion. The Badgers made their own luck. I was impressed and wish them luck in the Big-10, though I have to admit I am ACC guy so I doubt I will see many more of their games.

GO DUKE!

[trinity92]

This was sort of a perfect storm -- a lot of Duke's guys just looked "off." Add in a late game in a rabid, unfamiliar arena against a solid team that shot exceptionally well (29.2% from 3-point range entering the game), and you have a loss. A loss on Dec. 2. I was pretty angry for about five minutes; totally over it now. This team has plenty of upside, and I'm more interested in working toward that than the outcome of a game on Dec. 2.

Absolutely agree that this loss is far from the end of the world Jumbo, but working toward upside involves identifying and examining the things that aren't working, which all too often, at DBR, gets a poster condescendingly referred to the sticky threads or accused of not being a true Duke fan, or worse.

1. This game showed me nothing about Mason other than he's got a really solid body. I hope he and everyone else shrugs off this performance completely and just gives the kid time.

2. Andre is a great shooter, but still looks a bit lost on defense and when he has the ball but isn't shooting. Give him some time, and I truly believe he'll "get it," which will get him more minutes-- a lot more minutes. In fact, I want him backing up both Jon and Nolan so they can get their minutes down close to 30 a game, and I also want to go to a 3-guard lineup at times to rest Kyle, which brings us to . . .

2. The Big 3 simply play too many minutes. Please don't send me to the stickies to show me how chiched my complaint is-- I've read everything there and it doesn't change my mind, at least with this team. This applies most, in my mind, to Kyle Singler. Against Wisconsin in particular, Kyle wore down in the second half playing the entire game, and I'll ask someone to confirm or deny my general subjective impression that Kyle's second halves aren't as productive as his game starts.

The Lakers and Cavs play Kobe (77% of available minutes) and Lebron (78.6%) appreciably less than we do Kyle (86%), and their respective backups, Sasha Vujacic and Jamario Moon are humongous drop-offs in talent-- I think we need to be using Ryan Kelly as a backup, along with Lance.

That's it for now. The game was actually very good and exciting, and we can't hang our heads. Remember the beat-down we handed Wisconsin at Cameron and let the warm feelings heal you.

[ncexnyc]

Not a great team effort and it was obvious that Kyle was running on fumes at the end of the game. Andre made the game look alot closer than it actually was.

Both Jon and Nolan had bad games.

It looked as though our bigs were busy reading their press clippings from Friday's game. Miles had the best game out of the bunch. Mason gets a pass as this was his first game. Lance continues to be an enigma. Brian was game, but his usual faults were evidident when his skills or lack of them are compared to the abilities of the Badger's big men.

This team is still a work in progress, but despite the loss I believe we have a very, very good team.

[NSDukeFan]

Absolutely agree that this loss is far from the end of the world Jumbo, but working toward upside involves identifying and examining the things that aren't working, which all too often, at DBR, gets a poster condescendingly referred to the sticky threads or accused of not being a true Duke fan, or worse.

1. This game showed me nothing about Mason other than he's got a really solid body. I hope he and everyone else shrugs off this performance completely and just gives the kid time.

2. Andre is a great shooter, but still looks a bit lost on defense and when he has the ball but isn't shooting. Give him some time, and I truly believe he'll "get it," which will get him more minutes-- a lot more minutes. In fact, I want him backing up both Jon and Nolan so they can get their minutes down close to 30 a game, and I also want to go to a 3-guard lineup at times to rest Kyle, which brings us to . . .

2. The Big 3 simply play too many minutes. Please don't send me to the stickies to show me how chiched my complaint is-- I've read everything there and it doesn't change my mind, at least with this team. This applies most, in my mind, to Kyle Singler. Against Wisconsin in particular, Kyle wore down in the second half playing the entire game, and I'll ask someone to confirm or deny my general subjective impression that Kyle's second halves aren't as productive as his game starts.

The Lakers and Cavs play Kobe (77% of available minutes) and Lebron (78.6%) appreciably less than we do Kyle (86%), and their respective backups, Sasha Vujacic and Jamario Moon are humongous drop-offs in talent-- I think we need to be using Ryan Kelly as a backup, along with Lance.

That's it for now. The game was actually very good and exciting, and we can't hang our heads. Remember the beat-down we handed Wisconsin at Cameron and let the warm feelings heal you.

I think you get referred to sticky threads especially if your cliched complaint has been shown by several methods to not be valid. If you think our big 3 are playing too much, I refer you again to the minute numbers of our top players during championship seasons (e.g. Shane Battier 35 mpg in 2000-01 even though there were several blowouts that year, Bobby Hurley 35 mpg in 1991-92.)
I also don't know if comparing Kobe Bryant's 37 minutes per game playing an 82 game schedule and LeBron James playing 38 mpg for an 82 game schedule (which they have obviously done very successfully vs. greater athletes than in college) is a great defense for lowering Kyle's mpg to less than his 34 mpg. IMO.
I guess I also feel that playing more minutes early in the season may increase his fitness level so that he is more able to log major minutes in key games at the end of the year. I didn't see any evidence of playing over 32mpg hurting Jon and Kyle last year, and don't expect that to be the case this year.

[Neals384]

Well, my recorder failed while I was at a party so I didn't get to see the game. (Maybe that's not a bad thing.)

Based on the posts here and the box score, it's clear Wisconsin was the better team last night. Hats off to the Badgers!

I very much enjoyed the pre-game banter with folks from the Badger board. They know their BBall and had good, objective analysis to share. Thanks, guys.

Let's keep the door open to that sort of pre-game interchange, it's worthwhile! But I'm not sure how many other teams have boards as good as Duke and Wisconsin (I tried going to the Kentucky board and found little of value).

One more thing - Lance just had his first career double-double. He's earned his PT, despite his inconsistency. Let's give the guy a break!

Neal

[DukieBoy]

In looking for a way to get over last night's game, I got to thinking. This team seems like it is SO close to getting over the edge.

I know this has been done before, but if you could take only one player that played at Duke, who would it be.

Personally, I'd take Jay Williams. We need another guard and he's one of those "break em down, get to the rack" players. Plus, it'd move Jon off the ball and give us more production off the bench with Nolan and Andre.

If only, if only....

[Edouble]

Well, my recorder failed while I was at a party so I didn't get to see the game. (Maybe that's not a bad thing.)


http://www.justin.tv/accsportszone2/archive

You can always watch the game here, if you want. Just click on Dec 2, and go to 9:21 PM.

[BADGERdevil]

Great game, Duke fans. You guys ran into a Wisconsin team firing on all cylinders last night, and the Kohl Center was at a decibel it rarely reaches for nonconference opponents. The Badgers played very well, it was a quintessential performance by a Bo Ryan team—limited turnovers, quality looks and solid defense. As a lot of Wisconsin fans hoped would happen, our bigs hit some shots and that enabled Hughes to have some room to work. He made the most of it.

There wasn’t a single Wisconsin player who had a disappointing performance, other than Bohannon going 0-6 on threes (and that was made less relevant by the turnover margin and his solid contributions elsewhere). I thought Wisconsin’s patient and probing offense exposed some defensive liabilities for Duke, so hopefully you guys can get some of those things patched up.

Even with all that, you guys were right there in the end. Looking forward to watching this Duke team grow and get better.

[DukieInBrasil]

Jason Williams is an excellent choice as this team really does need his skill set. Having a beast inside like Elton Brand or Carlos Boozer wouldn't hurt.

[CDu]

I've always been a proponent of having a dominant creator off the dribble like Williams, so I'd be inclined to agree. I can envision the easy buckets he could create for the Plumlees, and how well he could work with versatile and savvy wings like Singler and Scheyer. At the other end of the spectrum, a bull on the blocks like Elton Brand would be the perfect complement to the length and athleticism of the Plumlees.

Of course, in either of these little hypotheticals we're talking about adding one of the most talented players to ever wear a Duke uniform to a talented team. So it's not as trivial as "just adding another player."

But yeah, I'd say Williams and then Brand would be the guys I'd think would add the most to this current team. One would create easy buckets for himself or others, while the other would be able to own the post on both ends of the floor.

[Classof06]

Gerald Henderson

[trinity92]

I think you get referred to sticky threads especially if your cliched complaint has been shown by several methods to not be valid. If you think our big 3 are playing too much, I refer you again to the minute numbers of our top players during championship seasons (e.g. Shane Battier 35 mpg in 2000-01 even though there were several blowouts that year, Bobby Hurley 35 mpg in 1991-92.)
I also don't know if comparing Kobe Bryant's 37 minutes per game playing an 82 game schedule and LeBron James playing 38 mpg for an 82 game schedule (which they have obviously done very successfully vs. greater athletes than in college) is a great defense for lowering Kyle's mpg to less than his 34 mpg. IMO.
I guess I also feel that playing more minutes early in the season may increase his fitness level so that he is more able to log major minutes in key games at the end of the year. I didn't see any evidence of playing over 32mpg hurting Jon and Kyle last year, and don't expect that to be the case this year.

Thanks for doing exactly what I talked about.

I don't recall expressing any alarm in my post about Battier's or Hurley's minutes. Surely you're not using our 2001 and 1992 teams-- among our best, and among the best college teams ever-- to compare to this one? Singler, Scheyer and Smith have Zoubek, Miles and Lance getting the bulk of the other minutes and scoring, while Hurley and Battier had immeasurably greater support, so they didn't have to shoulder as much of a burden while they were on the court or expend as much energy. In addition, we have both 2001 comeback games against Maryland to show a Duke team that surged in the second half-- I don't recall seeing that out of any Duke team with Singler on it. Battier and Hurley didn't wear down, while Singler and Smith have both shown poorer play at the end of seasons during their careers. More important to this particular discussion, Kyle was gassed at the end of last night's game. Did you ever see the 1991/2 or 2001 team fail to get a last shot off (not that there were many times we were behind at the end to need one)?

As far as the pro/college comparison, it was mostly made for illustrative purposes. The relevant difference you point out that's worth mentioning is that the season is longer, which I grant you makes it worth spreading playing time out. The talent at each level is the talent at each level-- I feel confident that Kobe could play 20 minutes a game in the ACC this year and still average 40-- even Adam Morrison, who hardly makes it on the court for the Lakers,
could play severly limited minutes and be the top scorer on our team.

For this team, this year, I want fewer minutes for the big 3, both for their sakes and the sake of developing other players.

[BlueintheFace]

Well, my final thoughts are:

1) Very disappointed in the decision to throw the ball half the length of the floor with almost 5 seconds left. I am also very disappointed in the Isolation play call for Kyle at that position on the floor. Still scratching my head on those two plays. I know K isn't perfect, but I expect him to do better than that. Part of the issue was execution by Kyle of course. That can't be forgotten.

2) Wisconsin played very well and the home court advantage is incredible there. Hughes played out of his mind.

3) No way around it. The big guys took all of 8 shots in a game where Duke took over 50 (and NONE of those were off post moves... one was a Mason Plumlee three)

4) Passing was a bit stagnant on the offensive end and we did not create opportunities with movement off the ball.

5) Dawkins is Dawk and Loaded. The kid is a gunner and I think after this game we will see the rest of the guys look for him a bit more... I hope at least. He'll get a lot more opportunities if we can get the ball in the post and find some ball movement off of kick outs and ball rotation to the open man.

6) Jon had a tough game. It happens.

7) Kyle looked very good for most of the game. He literally carried the team when things were starting to look a bit like @ Clemson from last year.

8) Mason was not ready for this. First real game as a freshman...@ Wisconsin... coming off an injury ... without practicing much with the team. The defense was specifically bad, but I am going to put zero stock in this game as it relates to his future. Wait and see.

9) Nolan's shot selection is becoming an unfortunate trend. One that will be hard to deal with. You HAVE TO HAVE an attack minded Nolan Smith on the floor to be a successful team this year. So how do you instruct him such that he has a balance of good shot selection with aggressiveness? His ego is a big part of what makes him valuable to this team. Tread carefully coach.

10) Guys. Kelly's body isn't ready for this level. He has no position right now. Get over it.

FINALLY, We only lost by four to a well coached team firing on all cylinders in one of the toughest venues in sports.... in December. Unlike previous years, I can actually see this team looking incredibly different in March than they do in November. Will we make a huge leap... maybe, maybe not. BUT, unlike previous years, we have the ability to actually do so this time. In the coming December games I will not concern myself with much else besides:

a) the development of the plumlees
b) nolan's shot selection
c) K's ability to MAKE this team a balanced one

Now on to St. John's.

[Acymetric]

Grant Hill, no questions asked. Guy was phenomenal. Pretty sure this would be my answer no matter what the current team looked like.

[Classof06]

To quote Andy Katz: "This isn't a bad loss for Duke at all."

I tip my hat to Wisconsin, but it looked like it was their Super Bowl and they played accordingly. The Badgers played much closer to their ceiling than Duke did.

Duke has some positives to take out of last night:

1) Singler can hit for 25+ and carry us, if need be (knew that was the case, but it was still good to see)
2) Had a chance to win one in a hostile environment with Scheyer and Smith not really playing that well
3) We finally got Mason onto the court
4) We know that Dawkins is a gamer and is scared of nothing whatsoever


As far as I'm concerned, I'm looking at Smith, Dawkins and the Plumlees to monitor their development.

Then we'll see what's what when we play Gonzaga on the 19th.

[Griff]

Wisconsin is 123-10 @ the Kohl center under Bo Ryan (from 2001-02 season to now)....thats why i felt this game was kind a trap game to begin with...

tough environment, well coached team that is solid fundamentally, underrated program and I think that we did let the Uconn game get to our heads a bit.

Bit I honestly believe that this team has the character to take this loss and build on it and make it a learning experience instead of a crutch.

[CDu]

In the coming December games I will not concern myself with much else besides:

a) the development of the plumlees
b) nolan's shot selection
c) K's ability to MAKE this team a balanced one

Now on to St. John's.

I'll add the following:

d) continued development of Dawkins' game.

He's had an amazing last few games shooting the ball, but that's not going to continue realistically. To this point, he's been pretty quiet aside from hitting 3s. If he can expand his game some to provide positive impact even when he's not shooting well, that'd be great.

I think Smith and the Plumlees are the two big keys though. The "attack mode" Smith is a nice idea, but he still needs to make good decisions. In the last few games, his decisionmaking has been debatable. I suspect he may be putting too much pressure on himself right now. Hopefully that's the case and he settles into just the right amount of attack mode.

I've been pleased with Miles's development this year. I hope it continues, because with his size and athleticism he could be a force. Mason obviously was really set back with the injury, so his progress has been delayed. Hopefully he can get going quickly.

[Griff]

Well, my final thoughts are:

1) Very disappointed in the decision to throw the ball half the length of the floor with almost 5 seconds left. I am also very disappointed in the Isolation play call for Kyle at that position on the floor. Still scratching my head on those two plays. I know K isn't perfect, but I expect him to do better than that. Part of the issue was execution by Kyle of course. That can't be forgotten.

2) Wisconsin played very well and the home court advantage is incredible there. Hughes played out of his mind.

3) No way around it. The big guys took all of 8 shots in a game where Duke took over 50 (and NONE of those were off post moves... one was a Mason Plumlee three)

4) Passing was a bit stagnant on the offensive end and we did not create opportunities with movement off the ball.

5) Dawkins is Dawk and Loaded. The kid is a gunner and I think after this game we will see the rest of the guys look for him a bit more... I hope at least. He'll get a lot more opportunities if we can get the ball in the post and find some ball movement off of kick outs and ball rotation to the open man.

6) Jon had a tough game. It happens.

7) Kyle looked very good for most of the game. He literally carried the team when things were starting to look a bit like @ Clemson from last year.

8) Mason was not ready for this. First real game as a freshman...@ Wisconsin... coming off an injury ... without practicing much with the team. The defense was specifically bad, but I am going to put zero stock in this game as it relates to his future. Wait and see.

9) Nolan's shot selection is becoming an unfortunate trend. One that will be hard to deal with. You HAVE TO HAVE an attack minded Nolan Smith on the floor to be a successful team this year. So how do you instruct him such that he has a balance of good shot selection with aggressiveness? His ego is a big part of what makes him valuable to this team. Tread carefully coach.

10) Guys. Kelly's body isn't ready for this level. He has no position right now. Get over it.

FINALLY, We only lost by four to a well coached team firing on all cylinders in one of the toughest venues in sports.... in December. Unlike previous years, I can actually see this team looking incredibly different in March than they do in November. Will we make a huge leap... maybe, maybe not. BUT, unlike previous years, we have the ability to actually do so this time. In the coming December games I will not concern myself with much else besides:

a) the development of the plumlees
b) nolan's shot selection
c) K's ability to MAKE this team a balanced one

Now on to St. John's.


I think you just have to sit him down in the film room and show him examples of good and bad shots but be sure to follow up with positive reinforcement and let him know that we need and depend on his aggressiveness but he needs to let the game come to him more so than trying to press the issue.....but like you said this is a delicate situation because I have seen the "low self-confidence" Nolan and I for one don't like it....I like the swagger he has on the court this year but if only he would let his shots come in the rhythm of the offense.

[Kedsy]

Even with all that, you guys were right there in the end. Looking forward to watching this Duke team grow and get better.

Thanks for that. You Wisconsin fans seem pretty classy, as foreign message board participants go. If the Badgers can play like this against all their opponents, you're going to have a pretty good year.

[NSDukeFan]

Thanks for doing exactly what I talked about.
You're welcome, I thought you brought it on quite nicely.


I don't recall expressing any alarm in my post about Battier's or Hurley's minutes. Surely you're not using our 2001 and 1992 teams-- among our best, and among the best college teams ever-- to compare to this one? Singler, Scheyer and Smith have Zoubek, Miles and Lance getting the bulk of the other minutes and scoring, while Hurley and Battier had immeasurably greater support, so they didn't have to shoulder as much of a burden while they were on the court or expend as much energy.

You are correct. At no point did I feel you were alarmed about Hurley or Battier's minutes and at no time did I compare this year's team vs. our championship teams. What I did say was that in those seasons that ended very well, where we had good teams with lots of great players, we still had players play more minutes than Kyle is currently. As you said, this team does not have some of the great options off the bench those teams did, yet Kyle is still playing fewer minutes than those players I mentioned. Please do not take this as me comparing Kyle's skills or games vs. Battier and Hurley.


In addition, we have both 2001 comeback games against Maryland to show a Duke team that surged in the second half-- I don't recall seeing that out of any Duke team with Singler on it. Battier and Hurley didn't wear down, while Singler and Smith have both shown poorer play at the end of seasons during their careers. More important to this particular discussion, Kyle was gassed at the end of last night's game. Did you ever see the 1991/2 or 2001 team fail to get a last shot off (not that there were many times we were behind at the end to need one)?
Allow me to retort. I don't know that there has ever been another comeback from any Duke team like the Marlyand game with Jay Williams, but I don't think that means every other Duke team was gassed. If you want to see a comeback by a team with Singler on it, there was a pretty good one last night against a very deliberate offensive team that just fell short. Maybe Kyle was gassed and that is why he missed his last shot, or maybe he just missed his last shot. And maybe if he was gassed that will help him to not be gassed when we need him in ACC play and hopefully for quite awhile beyond. I believe Kyle was fatigued at the end of his freshman year playing the post all year in his first college season. IMO, neither Kyle, nor Nolan struggled at the end of last season and as long as they get enough minutes to stay in great shape, I don't think they will this year either.
As far as not getting a shot off at the end of a game, unfortunately I will have to refer you to the 1999 title game with a fantastic collection of talent. I don't think it was necessarily fatigue that always causes poor play at the end of a game.



As far as the pro/college comparison, it was mostly made for illustrative purposes. The relevant difference you point out that's worth mentioning is that the season is longer, which I grant you makes it worth spreading playing time out. The talent at each level is the talent at each level-- I feel confident that Kobe could play 20 minutes a game in the ACC this year and still average 40-- even Adam Morrison, who hardly makes it on the court for the Lakers,
could play severly limited minutes and be the top scorer on our team.

For this team, this year, I want fewer minutes for the big 3, both for their sakes and the sake of developing other players.
I realize the pro/college comparison was for illustrative purposes and I showed why I disagreed with your example that Kobe and LeBron playing more minutes should make K want to make Kyle play less. I'm not sure what your point is about Kobe being able to score 40 points in 20 minutes in ACC action is and how that affects Kyle's playing time. I understand you want fewer minutes for the big 3 and want to see the players on the bench get more minutes. I agree with you there. I just don't agree with you that this will make our big 3 fresher at the end of the year.

[G man]

I for one was frustrated watching Nolan last night. I think him scoring and making athletic plays is important, but there was a point in last nights game where he looked off Mason in the post who had his guy sealed for a good three seconds. I am not sure if he does not have confidence in him or what, but he needs to trust his teammates even the young ones. We need Nolan, but more importantly we need Nolan to make better decisions.

[Kedsy]

Singler, Scheyer and Smith have Zoubek, Miles and Lance getting the bulk of the other minutes and scoring, while Hurley and Battier had immeasurably greater support, so they didn't have to shoulder as much of a burden while they were on the court or expend as much energy.

You don't think Hurley and Battier expended every ounce of energy they possessed while they were on the court? Wow.


2. The Big 3 simply play too many minutes. Please don't send me to the stickies to show me how chiched my complaint is-- I've read everything there and it doesn't change my mind, at least with this team. This applies most, in my mind, to Kyle Singler. Against Wisconsin in particular, Kyle wore down in the second half playing the entire game, and I'll ask someone to confirm or deny my general subjective impression that Kyle's second halves aren't as productive as his game starts.

The Lakers and Cavs play Kobe (77% of available minutes) and Lebron (78.6%) appreciably less than we do Kyle (86%), and their respective backups, Sasha Vujacic and Jamario Moon are humongous drop-offs in talent-- I think we need to be using Ryan Kelly as a backup, along with Lance.

Your pro comparison is flawed on many levels. For one thing, NBA games are 48 minutes, so a percentage comparison isn't very helpful. Both Kobe and LeBron play more minutes per game than Kyle does. More importantly, Kobe and LeBron play 3 or often 4 games a week while Duke only plays 2. That, plus the season being more than twice as long makes "pacing" yourself a lot more important in the NBA.

I don't have any statistics to back this up, but it's not my impression that Kyle has better first halves than second. This year, I felt he played better in the second half against both Arizona State and UConn. My recollection is he looked pretty strong in the second halves of last year's ACC tournament games where he played every single minute.

Kyle got tired at the end of his freshman year. There's no denying it, but as has been detailed ad nauseam there were many reasons for that which are much more likely than too many game minutes. He didn't seem to get tired at the end of last year, despite playing more minutes than he got as a freshman.

It's possible that people refer you to the stickies because the idea that a 20 year old playing five fewer minutes in a game on December 2 will have any bearing on his freshness in games played in March doesn't make any sense. Just my opinion, of course.

[greybeard]

Dave DeBusschere, wasn't he a baseball pitcher also. Two sport pro player?

Also was a player/coach for the Pistons when he was just a kid before being traded to the Knicks, helping them win two championships, being selected among the top 50, and oh yes, being president of the Nets and then the Knicks. DeBusschere was a terrific, terrific rebounder for his size, as is Kyle, a terrific shooter from distance, Kyle's pretty damn good at that too, and great to the basket from distance, ditto from Kyle. DeBusschere was also an all world defender, which is a strength of Kyle's too.

The league has changed and I don't know that Kyle could play as a 4 the way DeBusschere could in his day. I think that it's terrific for his future that Kyle gets to play the 3 now, as a junior, even while I think that his game will suffer a bit in the process of transition. From Kyle's perspective, the composition of the team this year could not have been scripted much better.

[mapei]

I'm in the camp that thinks this wasn't a terrible loss. It had no consequence other than rankings and gives the team things to work on. I was very disappointed, sure, but Wisconsin was great last last night. I really feel that they won the game more than Duke gave it away.

I only was able to watch the second half but didn't have a problem with the refs on any call other than the blocking on Kyle. That was certainly a momentum-killer, but I don't think the refs were any better or worse than in most games.

Like some others, I completely failed to understand Duke's end-of-game strategy and execution. Kyle looks like he's determined to shoot no matter what against strong D and ends up clanging off the side of the backboard; Nolan goes for a kamikaze drive with single-digit seconds left when we need a THREE; the long inbounds pass was very high-risk by design and awful in execution. But, all told, that was only 30 seconds or so of game time. Otherwise, we were just outplayed: but for Kyle, and Dawkins's huge 3s, we lose by a dozen.

The court-rushing is annoying, but Wisconsin was really good.

[Greg_Newton]

It's not coming out of a game that is absolutely exhausting, both physically and mentally. It's not really a matter of playing five less minutes (although, really, that is more like 20 minutes on the court), it's a matter of not getting a break (aside from timeouts, which, if you watch, aren't really good for much rest).

I think some people underestimate just how taxing it is to play a basketball game on a high D1 level... it's not like playing pickup at the Y. These guys are constantly moving at full speed, constantly alert and on edge and analyzing everything they see, their muscles tensed and ready to explode every second they're on the court, for 2+ hours straight.

It's my hope that K is purposely playing the big 3 35-40 minutes in December to get them in shape, much like summer conditioning. If he continues to do this during ACC play, I'll be quite disappointed.

And in trinity92's defense, it certainly is less draining when you're often dumping the ball down to a Boozer or a Laettner to generate offense. The big 3, as it is now, are generating 100% of our offense (PLEASE feed the ball to Miles, btw). What's more, Battier was hardly ever actually counted on to generate any offense, so it was less of an issue if he was running on fumes a little near the end of games. It's easier to make a heroic block or rebound when exhausted than it is to put the perfect touch on a jumpshot.

In either case, Kyle, Jon and Nolan are averaging 37, 38.5, and 39 mpg in our 3 non-blowouts (and Kyle would likely be at 40 instead of 37 if it weren't for his UConn foul trouble). Folks pointing to past teams that had ONE player averaging 35 mpg as justification for that might need to take a step back for perspective here... I really, really hope this is just "early season conditioning", and not a season-long trend.

[trinity92]

Let's pursue this off-board, if you like-- just don't confuse my unwillingness to hijack the thread, especially with a much-discussed topic, with an inability to respond. I don't need a public last word on this.