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CameronBornAndBred
11-30-2009, 08:43 AM
Nice to see that article, I agree with most everything that's printed there. My only real disagreement is this quote..


He is, first of all, huge. He’s also strong, which isn’t the same thing. He has excellent hands, and he boxes out really well. When he gets his hands on the ball, particularly on the defensive end, the other guys pretty much just forget it.

He is big, but to his benefit, this year he is not as huge as he has been in the past, and I think he is moving better because of it. What he sure doesn't have is "excellent hands". He is the most fumble fingered player on the team. He is an excellent passer, but as a target for an inside pass it's always a scary sight until he reels it in. Most of his possessions are due to rebounds, not passes, and there is a reason for that. Also, when he gets his hands on the ball offensively in the post, he usually dribbles it, which is the opposite direction from where he needs to be going with it. Almost every time he dribbles you can count on a turnover, whether it's from the missed shot going back up, or just being flat out stripped.
I love Zoub, but I hate his hands.

p.s I meant to name this "Front Page Zoubek Story". I blame my hands.

calltheobvious
11-30-2009, 08:52 AM
Nice to see that article, I agree with most everything that's printed there. My only real disagreement is this quote..

He is big, but to his benefit, this year he is not as huge as he has been in the past, and I think he is moving better because of it. What he sure doesn't have is "excellent hands". He is the most fumble fingered player on the team. He is an excellent passer, but as a target for an inside pass it's always a scary sight until he reels it in. Most of his possessions are due to rebounds, not passes, and there is a reason for that. Also, when he gets his hands on the ball offensively in the post, he usually dribbles it, which is the opposite direction from where he needs to be going with it. Almost every time he dribbles you can count on a turnover, whether it's from the missed shot going back up, or just being flat out stripped.
I love Zoub, but I hate his hands.

p.s I meant to name this "Front Page Zoubek Story". I blame my hands.


There's an important distinction to be made between 'having good hands' and 'being prone to bringing the ball down so that smaller players can strip it.' The former refers to the ability to catch passes and gather rebounds, two things that I believe Zoubek does very well. I don't think you'd get any disagreement on where Zoubek stands in terms of the latter.

Devilsfan
11-30-2009, 09:09 AM
I totally agree with Cameron... I think it was a great article but "the hands"? I've watched him for four years and his best attribute imo is setting the pick. This year his passing has really improved and I would much rather see him quickly pass it out to the perimeter than his other options.
Uconn was I think his best game ever against a strong opponent.

Tim1515
11-30-2009, 09:31 AM
I totally agree with Cameron... I think it was a great article but "the hands"? I've watched him for four years and his best attribute imo is setting the pick. This year his passing has really improved and I would much rather see him quickly pass it out to the perimeter than his other options.
Uconn was I think his best game ever against a strong opponent.

setting the pick? Z does a nice job on the low block...he just NEVER gets the ball down there. He has nice touch around the rim when he takes his time and passes extremely well out of the low block...the issue is he still wants to dribble. Brian's injuries have held him back significantly in development...especially keeping him from getting in shape which hurts his agility and stamina.

Bringing the ball down after an offensive rebound is 100% on the coaching staff IMO...that should've been drilled into his head day 1. If Z would keep the ball high at all times...with the offensive boards he is getting...he could get 6 to 8 more ppg easy i think and people wouldn't be complaining.

Azdukefan
11-30-2009, 09:38 AM
Bringing the ball down after an offensive rebound is 100% on the coaching staff IMO...that should've been drilled into his head day 1. If Z would keep the ball high at all times...with the offensive boards he is getting...he could get 6 to 8 more ppg easy i think and people wouldn't be complaining.

I am quite sure that K and his staff bring it to his attention every time they see it. As a former coach myself, it goes without saying that you can direct someone as much as humanly possible but at some point they have to take the direction and use it. The Duke staff is second to none and any kid would only be so lucky to have them teaching them.

Garfinkle (well renowned for his 5 five star basketball camp) was on record as saying that Zoubek will be end up being great at Duke. While Brian has shown flashes of being good, great might be an overstatement.

airowe
11-30-2009, 09:53 AM
Bringing the ball down after an offensive rebound is 100% on the coaching staff IMO...that should've been drilled into his head day 1. If Z would keep the ball high at all times...with the offensive boards he is getting...he could get 6 to 8 more ppg easy i think and people wouldn't be complaining.

What exactly do you think the coaching staff is doing when they see Zoubs bringing the ball down low? Encouraging it? I guarantee you this is and has been a point of emphasis. You can lead a horse to water...

Cavlaw
11-30-2009, 10:04 AM
Nice to see Zoubs getting a little love. He's a journeyman, always doing what he can to help the team find a W. I thought he had a very good game against UConn, but was disappointed he missed several opportunities for chippy putbacks that would have given him a terrific stat line when added to his rebounds.

Grta
11-30-2009, 10:06 AM
I love the guy, but after three years in the program, he should be better at some of the basics. That I don't understand. Maybe it comes down to lack of playing time. It would be nice to see him dunk once in awhile, and not dribble the ball in traffic.

Tim1515
11-30-2009, 10:13 AM
What exactly do you think the coaching staff is doing when they see Zoubs bringing the ball down low? Encouraging it? I guarantee you this is and has been a point of emphasis. You can lead a horse to water...

I'm not one to get on the staff about anything. It is impossible for most of us to know exactly what goes on. Wojo has received a ton of crap as the big man coach but it could very well be a lack of ability or willingness to be coached that seemingly held McRoberts, LT and Z back. Josh was a great player at Duke...but i'm thinking more about the post on offense.

Those 3 guys have not developed post moves. Like you said i'm sure the staff has talked to Z about not bringing the ball down...but after 3 and 1/2 years...he should know that by now...to the point he's doing 300 pushups every time he brings the ball down. For some reason he continues to bring it down in game situations...that's on someone...maybe Z refuses to do it...just seems we should be past that by now.

IMO the development of Miles and Mason...along with some degree Czyz and Kelly...will determine how future highly rated post players look at Duke. There is a lot of talent down low right now but they don't have great post moves yet...they need to learn for the perception of Duke coaching bigs to change.

NSDukeFan
11-30-2009, 10:19 AM
I love the guy, but after three years in the program, he should be better at some of the basics. That I don't understand. Maybe it comes down to lack of playing time. It would be nice to see him dunk once in awhile, and not dribble the ball in traffic.

Do you mean the basics like boxing out, rebounding, knowing where he should be defensively, providing an inside presence defensively, passing out of the post, making good decisions out of the high post, screening? Yes, he doesn't do everything well and unfortunately didn't convert some of his chances against UConn, but he does a lot well.
Sure it would be nice to see him dunk, but a dunk is worth 2 points just like his lay-ups.

UrinalCake
11-30-2009, 10:20 AM
The thing that always bothers me about Zoubs is his body language on the court. He just doesn't "look" like he thinks he belongs. Every time he makes a mistake he claps his hands together and looks up into the sky. It's like he's trying to show how hard he's trying, instead of just playing.

At first I thought that he would develop better composure after getting some playing time, but I've now been saying this for four years. I love the guy and the effort he puts forth, but unfortunately his abilities are very limited.

sweetchiba51
11-30-2009, 10:28 AM
Its coaching. A guard is teaching our big men. K needs to hire someone to coach these big guys, they just do not develop like they should. I come from a football background....a quarterback coach would not be coaching the linebackers..plain and simple...Wojo is great coach for our floor leaders, but not our bigs...

Tim1515
11-30-2009, 10:34 AM
Its coaching. A guard is teaching our big men. K needs to hire someone to coach these big guys, they just do not develop like they should. I come from a football background....a quarterback coach would not be coaching the linebackers..plain and simple...Wojo is great coach for our floor leaders, but not our bigs...

There are small guys...PG or even people who weren't good enough to play division 1 who can be great big men coaches. Some people just have the ability to teach. I'm not sure if it is Wojo. I do think that if Miles and Mason finish their careers without post moves the staff needs to think hard about what direction to go.

I've heard numerous times that AAU coaches tell bigmen to avoid Duke...other programs put down Duke's ability to coach size. Even if Wojo was outstanding at his job...these recruits are hearing otherwise and that might be enough motivation to look at other options.

-jk
11-30-2009, 10:42 AM
Sigh. The best big man coach ever was about 6'.

-jk

jv001
11-30-2009, 10:44 AM
I love the guy, but after three years in the program, he should be better at some of the basics. That I don't understand. Maybe it comes down to lack of playing time. It would be nice to see him dunk once in awhile, and not dribble the ball in traffic.

Maybe he is not as far along as he should because of being set back by injuries. I'm sure the coaching staff has told Brian to keep the ball up high. Matter of fact, one of the coaches said that this year. They don't want him to bend over and make himself shorter. He still does this and it drives me nuts, but I look at Brian's overall work and I'm impressed. He does a lot to help this team win and I expect him to get better. Go Duke!

CDu
11-30-2009, 10:46 AM
There are small guys...PG or even people who weren't good enough to play division 1 who can be great big men coaches. Some people just have the ability to teach. I'm not sure if it is Wojo. I do think that if Miles and Mason finish their careers without post moves the staff needs to think hard about what direction to go.

I don't know about the second paragraph, but I agree that Wojo's height has nothing to do with his ability to coach big men. There have been plenty of good big man coaches who are not big, including Pete Newell (who was only 6'2"). I'm not sure whether or not Wojo is actually a good big man's coach. But if he's not, it's not simply because he is/was a guard.

CDu
11-30-2009, 10:49 AM
Maybe he is not as far along as he should because of being set back by injuries. I'm sure the coaching staff has told Brian to keep the ball up high. Matter of fact, one of the coaches said that this year. They don't want him to bend over and make himself shorter. He still does this and it drives me nuts, but I look at Brian's overall work and I'm impressed. He does a lot to help this team win and I expect him to get better. Go Duke!

Yes, I think a lot of Zoubek's lack of progress has been due to injuries. The biggest weakness to Zoubek's game has been his lack of quickness/agility. Well, he wasn't really able to spend the previous summers working on that thanks to repeated foot injuries. And it's hard to develop during the season when school takes time and the limited practice time is focused more on the team rather than the individual. This past summer he was healthy, but it's hard to make up for all that lost time in one summer.

sweetchiba51
11-30-2009, 10:51 AM
Never mentioned anything about wojo's height....he is a guard coaching big men..makes no sense to me...

roywhite
11-30-2009, 10:53 AM
I've come to accept Zoubs and appreciate some of the things he does. As mentioned elsewhere, he's productive in terms of his numbers per minute.

Bringing the ball down and dribbling when surrounded still drives me nuts, and will usually have me shouting at the TV.

Seems like El Deano always had a big man or two that was a "project"...Zwikker, Warren Martin, Kevin Salvadori, etc. They didn't become stars generally, but by their senior year it was a good bet that they wouldn't bring the ball down in traffic. :(

Keep after it, Zoubs. You're an important part of this team.

CDu
11-30-2009, 10:55 AM
Never mentioned anything about wojo's height....he is a guard coaching big men..makes no sense to me...

There's no requirement that a guy have played the position before. Wojo can learn the position at a big man camp and teach the position from there. As has been side, Pete Newell (best big man coach ever) didn't play as a big man. It didn't seem to hurt him. Now, Wojo may or may not be particularly good at coaching big men, but that's a different issue.

airowe
11-30-2009, 10:58 AM
Never mentioned anything about wojo's height....he is a guard coaching big men..makes no sense to me...

A little reading for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Newell

Devilsfan
11-30-2009, 11:08 AM
Nice to see our fans so candid on players and coaches. I for one though like Wojo and think his teaching is fine. I also believe he (Wojo) will some day be an excellent head coach. Maybe some of us want to blame the teacher rather than the student and unfairly blame missed recruits on him. I am glad Wojo is on our bench rather than an opponents. I love the way our bigs played against Uconn.

sagegrouse
11-30-2009, 11:29 AM
Its coaching. A guard is teaching our big men. K needs to hire someone to coach these big guys, they just do not develop like they should. I come from a football background....a quarterback coach would not be coaching the linebackers..plain and simple...Wojo is great coach for our floor leaders, but not our bigs...

To which I would say, this is an example of Mencken's Metalaw:

"For every human problem, there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."

In fact, most big successful big men coaches are not former NBA centers or even former centers at any level.

David Cutcliffe, who I think is an outstanding football coach and an expert at molding quarterbacks, never played college football, much less quarterback.

And BTW, Michael Jordan, who is arguably the best player that ever lived, is proving (again) to be an incompetent basketball executive, evaluator of talent (Kwame Brown and others), and selector of coaches (Larry Brown?). I suspect he would be even worse as a coach.

sagegrouse
'I'm OK with this issue coming up again and again. It won't go away, in part because there are so few skilled centers coming into college. Everyone is a project in one way or another. So fans, including me, will always be concerned with coaching and development.'

BlueintheFace
11-30-2009, 02:55 PM
What would Duke fans complain about if Thad Matta became an assistant coach at Duke.... oh yah, more zone defense

airowe
11-30-2009, 03:04 PM
I stole this from stickdog from a post of his on another site:


Zoubek's offensive rebounding percentage of 32.3% leads the entire NCAA.
Zoubek's 4.833 offensive rebounds per game are 11th in the NCAA and first in the ACC.
Zoubek's 29 offensive rebounds are second in the NCAA and first in the ACC.

hokiedevil
11-30-2009, 03:12 PM
Wojo's strength as a big man coach is that he knows how the bigs are to set up for a pass and where they need to catch it. Z has not successfully improved his ability to catch the ball in game situations since being at Duke. He is great at the little things and that is part of the Duke experience - we always have had a key role player. So be it for Zoubs!

hughgs
11-30-2009, 03:19 PM
Never mentioned anything about wojo's height....he is a guard coaching big men..makes no sense to me...

Let's do a little thought experiment.

Assume that Duke has all the money in the world and that if we ask anybody in the world to come in and coach the big men, then they will accept the offer.

Do you think Pete Newell should be asked to come in?

MChambers
11-30-2009, 03:29 PM
Let's do a little thought experiment.

Assume that Duke has all the money in the world and that if we ask anybody in the world to come in and coach the big men, then they will accept the offer.

Do you think Pete Newell should be asked to come in?

Pete Newell died about a year ago, so I don't think he'd be a good choice. If he were alive, yes, he would be great.

DevilAlumna
11-30-2009, 05:14 PM
I stole this from stickdog from a post of his on another site:


Zoubek's offensive rebounding percentage of 32.3% leads the entire NCAA.
Zoubek's 4.833 offensive rebounds per game are 11th in the NCAA and first in the ACC.
Zoubek's 29 offensive rebounds are second in the NCAA and first in the ACC.


Yeah, but how many of those rebounds are from little chippy, lay-in shots that he missed, because he didn't go up strong enough the first time? Do they keep stats on that?

He should be doing 50 push-ups for each and every time he brings the ball down. Makes me want to scream at the TV!!! Even Cherokee finally learned, by his senior year, "Ball-turn-shoot." Take out the extra dribbles, the attempts-at-fakes-that-turn-into-walks, etc., and just put the ball in the basket. Zoub should have that drilled into his head by now, and the fact that he doesn't makes me lose all hope for him. :(

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-30-2009, 05:20 PM
I think Zoub offensive rebounds are a little misleading. He gets a lot of put backs but they usally don't go in.

Cockabeau
11-30-2009, 05:31 PM
If the coaching staff has indeed told Z to NOT bring the ball down then why is he STILL making the mistake?

It has only been 6 games so far and I would be willing to wager that Z has made this mistake around 15 times already.

jv001
11-30-2009, 05:36 PM
That some people will never be satisfied. Zoubs is what he is and he's a plus for this team. I take Coach K's appraisal of his play over others. Go Duke!

rasputin
11-30-2009, 05:39 PM
That some people will never be satisfied. Zoubs is what he is and he's a plus for this team. I take Coach K's appraisal of his play over others. Go Duke!

To say that a player "is what he is" regarding size, agility, and athletic skills is one thing. It's another when a player keeps making the same MENTAL error over and over. I'm another who goes bananas when Z grabs a rebound and puts it on the deck. And he just keeps doing it.

Indoor66
11-30-2009, 05:41 PM
To say that a player "is what he is" regarding size, agility, and athletic skills is one thing. It's another when a player keeps making the same MENTAL error over and over. I'm another who goes bananas when Z grabs a rebound and puts it on the deck. And he just keeps doing it.

Yea, I vote that Wojo give him one lash for each time he brings the ball down. That ought to fix the sutuation.

jv001
11-30-2009, 05:46 PM
To say that a player "is what he is" regarding size, agility, and athletic skills is one thing. It's another when a player keeps making the same MENTAL error over and over. I'm another who goes bananas when Z grabs a rebound and puts it on the deck. And he just keeps doing it.

I get upset when Zoubs plays small by dribbling or bending over under the basket. But I also know that Brian is valuable to this team. Elton and Carlos are not walking into that door. So we play who we have. What good does it to keep saying the same thing about Brian's game. We all know his weaknesses and to keep harping on them does not help. Go Duke!

airowe
11-30-2009, 06:03 PM
I think Zoub offensive rebounds are a little misleading. He gets a lot of put backs but they usally don't go in.

And this is better than not getting the rebound at all how?

jimsumner
11-30-2009, 07:05 PM
"He gets a lot of put backs but they usally don't go in."

Well, he's making well over half of his field-goal attempts over his college career, so some of them must be going in.

But it's good to see that new generations of posters will continue to revive the guards-can't-coach-big men nonsense. Because DBR needs some traditions.

The worse thing that ever happened to Brian Zoubek was Howard Garfinkel heralding Zoubek as the next Gminski. Garf is a legend in his field but he was never more wrong than he was here. Then Vitale takes up the mantra and pretty soon Zoubek is in a position where he can't possibly satisfy a large portion of the fan base.

Yet he's fought through multiple foot injuries, worked his butt off, done what the coaches have asked him, and helped Duke win games and championships. The coaches appreciate him, his teammates appreciate him and opposing teams have to account for him.

I guess that will have to be enough.

jv001
11-30-2009, 07:43 PM
"He gets a lot of put backs but they usally don't go in."

Well, he's making well over half of his field-goal attempts over his college career, so some of them must be going in.

But it's good to see that new generations of posters will continue to revive the guards-can't-coach-big men nonsense. Because DBR needs some traditions.

The worse thing that ever happened to Brian Zoubek was Howard Garfinkel heralding Zoubek as the next Gminski. Garf is a legend in his field but he was never more wrong than he was here. Then Vitale takes up the mantra and pretty soon Zoubek is in a position where he can't possibly satisfy a large portion of the fan base.

Yet he's fought through multiple foot injuries, worked his butt off, done what the coaches have asked him, and helped Duke win games and championships. The coaches appreciate him, his teammates appreciate him and opposing teams have to account for him.

I guess that will have to be enough.

Thanks Jim, Wish I could have said it like that. Go Duke!

MChambers
11-30-2009, 08:38 PM
"He gets a lot of put backs but they usally don't go in."

Well, he's making well over half of his field-goal attempts over his college career, so some of them must be going in.

But it's good to see that new generations of posters will continue to revive the guards-can't-coach-big men nonsense. Because DBR needs some traditions.

The worse thing that ever happened to Brian Zoubek was Howard Garfinkel heralding Zoubek as the next Gminski. Garf is a legend in his field but he was never more wrong than he was here. Then Vitale takes up the mantra and pretty soon Zoubek is in a position where he can't possibly satisfy a large portion of the fan base.

Yet he's fought through multiple foot injuries, worked his butt off, done what the coaches have asked him, and helped Duke win games and championships. The coaches appreciate him, his teammates appreciate him and opposing teams have to account for him.

I guess that will have to be enough.

It's enough for me. We're lucky to have him.

I think some fans don't appreciate what a great job he's been doing passing out of the low post. He's also been handling the ball in the high post and doing a nice job.

Zeke
11-30-2009, 09:15 PM
For 3 years I have heard nothing but criticism of Z here. If you look at his stats per 40 minutes you will see they are really very good. Jumbo's +/- stats are also very good. I think that he is a true big man in the style of Big Baby, or Shaquile(sp?) trapped in a system whose big is more like Leitner - a real #4 playing #5. Z. will never be a Leitner and the system won't change. For that reason I tend to agree with the thought that a true big should think long a hard before coming to DU.

jimsumner
11-30-2009, 09:30 PM
The late German opera conductor Ferdinand Leitner played at Duke?

Cool. :)

CameronBornAndBred
11-30-2009, 09:46 PM
I think that he is a true big man in the style of Big Baby, or Shaquile(sp?) trapped in a system whose big is more like Leitner...
You spelled Shaquille's name far better than you did Laettner's.

Poincaré
11-30-2009, 09:53 PM
For 3 years I have heard nothing but criticism of Z here. If you look at his stats per 40 minutes you will see they are really very good. Jumbo's +/- stats are also very good. I think that he is a true big man in the style of Big Baby, or Shaquile(sp?) trapped in a system whose big is more like Laettner - a real #4 playing #5. Z. will never be a Leitner and the system won't change. For that reason I tend to agree with the thought that a true big should think long a hard before coming to DU.

Big Baby was an All-American level player. He could shoot from close in, had a soft touch around the basket, and could handle the ball in the post. The next time Z dunks the ball after catching the ball one foot from the basket may be his first. He is not a true post player on offense. However, he is a true post player on defense, I guess.

I do think that Z could score anywhere between 2--5 points more per game if our guards could find him in the pick and roll. Someone else pointed out earlier how good he is at setting picks. He is almost always open for two seconds after screening and our guards never find him. Many times, Z will be open in the post when someone else sets a screen for our ball-handler. Again, no pass inside. I wonder if this is an issue of our guards lacking trust in Z (after all, he is a turnover machine) or lack of court vision. It could be a mix of both.

CameronBornAndBred
11-30-2009, 10:38 PM
Many times, Z will be open in the post when someone else sets a screen for our ball-handler. Again, no pass inside. I wonder if this is an issue of our guards lacking trust in Z (after all, he is a turnover machine) or lack of court vision. It could be a mix of both.
To go back to the origin of this thread...I see it as Zoub's hands. He is a very good passer, but a lousy catcher. Would you throw it inside to greasy fingers if you didn't trust him to catch and score? Or at least catch it and kick back out? Either way..he has to catch it first.

Kedsy
11-30-2009, 11:53 PM
Yeah, but how many of those rebounds are from little chippy, lay-in shots that he missed, because he didn't go up strong enough the first time? Do they keep stats on that?


I think Zoub offensive rebounds are a little misleading. He gets a lot of put backs but they usally don't go in.

Moses Malone made a hall of fame career out of doing that and nobody called him out for his lack of strength.

Besides, as Jim Sumner pointed out, Z doesn't miss that many of them. He's shooting 57.1% this year, shot 57.5% last year, and shot 59.4% the year before that.

You all appear to be counting the ones that miss several times more than the ones that go in.

airowe
12-01-2009, 12:12 AM
Does Ucon need a new big man coach too?

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=800


The Project

When I asked Memphis head coach Lionel Hollins about Hasheem Thabeet before the game, he indicated that the development of the No. 2 overall pick is an ongoing process. "We're teaching him how to play the game of basketball like you would a seventh or eighth grader," Hollins said.

Even with three years at the University of Connecticut, Thabeet came to the NBA far from a finished product. He made strides between his raw freshman year and his junior campaign, when he was co-Big East Player of the Year with DeJuan Blair, but there were still things Thabeet was able to get away with because of his 7'3" height at the college level that simply won't work in the pro game.

Welcome2DaSlopes
12-01-2009, 12:13 AM
Does Georgetown need a new big man coach too?

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=800

Do you mean Uconn?

airowe
12-01-2009, 12:18 AM
Do you mean Uconn?

I think you quoted me wrong. :D

CameronBornAndBred
12-01-2009, 12:28 AM
Does Ucon need a new big man coach too?

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=800
We're teaching him how to play the game of basketball like you would a seventh or eighth grader..

There's one thing Brian will never be questioned for. He has smarts and lots of them. Regardless of what basketball has in store for him, he has the intelligence for a long future in whichever walk of life fits him best. I've always thought it's almost a crime that he was gifted with the body frame he has. I really think a smaller Zoubek would have made an excellent point guard.

Dukeface88
12-01-2009, 02:08 AM
The next time Z dunks the ball after catching the ball one foot from the basket may be his first.

I suspect that the coaching staff may discourage him from dunking due to injury concerns. I imagine repeated jolts are not particularly good for the feet.

stickdog
12-01-2009, 03:24 AM
So no player in the NCAA has a higher offensive rebounding rate so far this season, and a hardworking kid still can't get any love on his own team's fansite?

Really?

sagegrouse
12-01-2009, 06:27 AM
For that reason I tend to agree with the thought that a true big should think long a hard before coming to DU.

Why do I think that you are agreeing only with yourself?

sagegrouse

diesel
12-01-2009, 06:43 AM
There are other sides to Brian Zoubek than his performance on the court.

We hear from the team that he is really funny. We also read that he’s an artist.

As a parent, I must report my separate appreciation of him. Surrounded by small fry on one occasion last year, he was asked the big one: how did he get to be 7’ 1.”

His response: “I ate my vegetables!”

CameronBornAndBred
12-01-2009, 07:25 AM
So no player in the NCAA has a higher offensive rebounding rate so far this season, and a hardworking kid still can't get any love on his own team's fansite?

Really?
There is a big difference between dislike and legitimate criticism.

hughgs
12-01-2009, 08:03 AM
Pete Newell died about a year ago, so I don't think he'd be a good choice. If he were alive, yes, he would be great.

DOH, OK, add raise from the dead to my assumptions :).

So if Newell is such a great choice then why isn't Wojo?

Cockabeau
12-01-2009, 08:30 AM
Wojo spent a good 10 to 15 years developing his skills at guard from a guards perspective.

Newell spent nearly his whole life on perfecting the craft of developing big men.

Then again, developing a big depends on person himself too.
He has to put in the work. I haven't seen progress of post skills from Shelden or McRoberts

hughgs
12-01-2009, 09:32 AM
Wojo spent a good 10 to 15 years developing his skills at guard from a guards perspective.

Newell spent nearly his whole life on perfecting the craft of developing big men.

Then again, developing a big depends on person himself too.
He has to put in the work. I haven't seen progress of post skills from Shelden or McRoberts

But, the original poster didn't claim that lack of experience is the reason that Duke needs a big man coach. He questioned why a guard should coach Duke's big men. That's the point I'm addressing.

I think a reasonable debate could be had on whether Wojo is experienced enough to coach the big men at Duke, but noone has ever done that.

And before posters start putting words in my mouth I think Wojo has enough experience. It's not like Wojo has only been coaching the big men for the past year or so.

Acymetric
12-01-2009, 12:43 PM
There is a big difference between dislike and legitimate criticism.

True, but I think there's quite a bit of both around here.

feldspar
12-01-2009, 12:51 PM
Do you mean the basics like boxing out, rebounding, knowing where he should be defensively, providing an inside presence defensively, passing out of the post, making good decisions out of the high post, screening? Yes, he doesn't do everything well and unfortunately didn't convert some of his chances against UConn, but he does a lot well.
Sure it would be nice to see him dunk, but a dunk is worth 2 points just like his lay-ups.

I'm going to take a wild guess, but I think maybe the poster was referring to Zoub's struggles with establishing and keeping a pivot foot on the floor for more than a second.

Kedsy
12-01-2009, 12:54 PM
There is a big difference between dislike and legitimate criticism.


True, but I think there's quite a bit of both around here.

You mean, like this?


I'm going to take a wild guess, but I think maybe the poster was referring to Zoub's struggles with establishing and keeping a pivot foot on the floor for more than a second.

Troublemaker
12-01-2009, 01:00 PM
So no player in the NCAA has a higher offensive rebounding rate so far this season, and a hardworking kid still can't get any love on his own team's fansite?

Really?

Hmmm, Pomeroy doesn't have player stats up yet. What website is missing from my collection? (It's possible you hand calculated or have a personal db; just wanted to make sure I'm not missing anything).

airowe
12-01-2009, 01:04 PM
Here you go Troublemaker:


I stole this from stickdog from a post of his on another site:


Zoubek's offensive rebounding percentage of 32.3% leads the entire NCAA.
Zoubek's 4.833 offensive rebounds per game are 11th in the NCAA and first in the ACC.
Zoubek's 29 offensive rebounds are second in the NCAA and first in the ACC.

BD80
12-01-2009, 04:08 PM
... I really think a smaller Zoubek would have made an excellent point guard.

He was. His name was Greg Paulus.


... He questioned why a guard should coach Duke's big men. That's the point I'm addressing.

I think a reasonable debate could be had on whether Wojo is experienced enough to coach the big men at Duke, but noone has ever done that.
...

No one? Really?

http://www.duke.edu/~bct1/images/DBRHPR7.1asPDF.pdf



Throatybeard’s DBR Manifesto/Pocket Reference

1) Koaching Koncerns:

... f) ... we need a real big man coach besides Wojo, of at least 6'-10” himself.

You must mean no one this week, because this issue has been discussed, argued and examined beyond belief. This isn't just beating a dead horse, this is flaying the chalk outline of where the horse used to be.

Wojo has been coaching the big men for a while, and even a couple of his "failures" are drawing NBA paychecks. Wojo was an instructor at Newell's big man camp for a time. Please try to be original.

hughgs
12-01-2009, 11:06 PM
But, the original poster didn't claim that lack of experience is the reason that Duke needs a big man coach. He questioned why a guard should coach Duke's big men. That's the point I'm addressing.

I think a reasonable debate could be had on whether Wojo is experienced enough to coach the big men at Duke, but noone has ever done that.

And before posters start putting words in my mouth I think Wojo has enough experience. It's not like Wojo has only been coaching the big men for the past year or so.


He was. His name was Greg Paulus.



No one? Really?

http://www.duke.edu/~bct1/images/DBRHPR7.1asPDF.pdf



You must mean no one this week, because this issue has been discussed, argued and examined beyond belief. This isn't just beating a dead horse, this is flaying the chalk outline of where the horse used to be.

Wojo has been coaching the big men for a while, and even a couple of his "failures" are drawing NBA paychecks. Wojo was an instructor at Newell's big man camp for a time. Please try to be original.

No, I mean that I don't remember anyone discussing whether Wojo's experience is enough to teach the big men at Duke. The "Manifesto" says:

"Krzyzewski loves guards too much; we need a real big man coach besides Wojo, of at least ‘6-10” himself."

Maybe my reading comprehension needs some work, but I don't see anything related to experience. And if we've flogged this topic to death then maybe you can point to a series of posts where we discussed the issue of experience. Heck, you can probably find something that's less than a month old, so I'll leave that to you.

And, I'll be original when you decide to read all of my post. I distinctly wrote, because I knew someone would try and put words in my mouth:

"And before posters start putting words in my mouth I think Wojo has enough experience. It's not like Wojo has only been coaching the big men for the past year or so."

Next time please try and read my entire post next time you respond to me. It will save us all some time and allow us to have an intelligent discussion.

FerryFor50
12-01-2009, 11:20 PM
No, I mean that I don't remember anyone discussing whether Wojo's experience is enough to teach the big men at Duke. The "Manifesto" says:

"Krzyzewski loves guards too much; we need a real big man coach besides Wojo, of at least ‘6-10” himself."

Maybe my reading comprehension needs some work, but I don't see anything related to experience. And if we've flogged this topic to death then maybe you can point to a series of posts where we discussed the issue of experience. Heck, you can probably find something that's less than a month old, so I'll leave that to you.

And, I'll be original when you decide to read all of my post. I distinctly wrote, because I knew someone would try and put words in my mouth:

"And before posters start putting words in my mouth I think Wojo has enough experience. It's not like Wojo has only been coaching the big men for the past year or so."

Next time please try and read my entire post next time you respond to me. It will save us all some time and allow us to have an intelligent discussion.

No there's definitely been tons of discussions about Wojo's big man coaching. And it always starts and ends the same. Someone mentions it, then they get summarily blasted for it, rendering the discussion dead. Some things just aren't allowed to be discussed. :)

-jk
12-01-2009, 11:38 PM
No, I mean that I don't remember anyone discussing whether Wojo's experience is enough to teach the big men at Duke. The "Manifesto" says:

"Krzyzewski loves guards too much; we need a real big man coach besides Wojo, of at least ‘6-10” himself."

Maybe my reading comprehension needs some work, but I don't see anything related to experience. And if we've flogged this topic to death then maybe you can point to a series of posts where we discussed the issue of experience. Heck, you can probably find something that's less than a month old, so I'll leave that to you.

And, I'll be original when you decide to read all of my post. I distinctly wrote, because I knew someone would try and put words in my mouth:

"And before posters start putting words in my mouth I think Wojo has enough experience. It's not like Wojo has only been coaching the big men for the past year or so."

Next time please try and read my entire post next time you respond to me. It will save us all some time and allow us to have an intelligent discussion.

Let's all take it easy.

This discussion has occurred over and over, and even happened within the first month of adopting the new board software.

The easiest way to find prior big-man coach discussions: search! Use keywords Wojo and Newell.

-jk

Duvall
12-01-2009, 11:53 PM
The experience argument is even sillier than the complaint that a former guard can't coach big men. Even if Wojo was inexperienced when he started coaching post players, he's been doing for nearly a decade now. That's experience!

gep
12-02-2009, 01:18 AM
Wojo has been coaching the big men for a while, and even a couple of his "failures" are drawing NBA paychecks. Wojo was an instructor at Newell's big man camp for a time.

I didn't know that Wojo was an instructor at the big man camp... anyone knows how many years? If more than a couple, I'd say Wojo has both the "experience" and should have a "coaching ability" (at least to be on Coach K's staff for so long) to coach big men :rolleyes:

Tim1515
12-02-2009, 10:49 AM
Most of this talk has to come from UNC's success. Tyler had a much better career even though Josh was ranked higher. Wright picks UNC over Duke. Watching Deon play this year is frustrating since he wasn't recruited in the same world as Zoubek or even LT. Then you ad Ed Davis on top of that.

I think a big question will be answered in a few years. Basically...who would you rather have right now...Zeller and the Wear twins or Kelly and the Plumlee boys? Will that answer be the same in a year or two?

jimsumner
12-02-2009, 11:09 AM
Deon Thompson was the consensus #43 recruit in 2006, so it's not like Carolina found him in a bus station begging for spare change.

UNC had a well-deserved reputation for developing big men under DES; Robert McAdoo, Bobby Jones, Mitch Kupchak, Sam Perkins, Brad Daugherty, et. al.

UNC's big man coach? Why none other than that giant, former college center, Bill Guthridge. Why, he's almost as tall as me.

Tim1515
12-02-2009, 11:14 AM
Deon Thompson was the consensus #43 recruit in 2006, so it's not like Carolina found him in a bus station begging for spare change.


I did just look at rivals who had him around #70 compared to Z at #24 i think.

Anyway...that isn't really my point. Deon received as much criticism his freshman year from Duke fans as the Wear twins do now. Miles and Mason have more talent then the Wear twins...much more "potential" for whatever that is worth. I'm just hoping they are stars in a few years.

CDu
12-02-2009, 11:15 AM
The experience argument is even sillier than the complaint that a former guard can't coach big men. Even if Wojo was inexperienced when he started coaching post players, he's been doing for nearly a decade now. That's experience!

Yes, the real question (and I'm not in any position to answer it) is merely whether Wojo is any good at coaching big men. The answer to that has little/nothing to do with his height, his college position, or the amount of experience he has at this point. It's all about whether he's good at it or not.

You can be a good (or bad) big man coach even if you're small. You can be a good (or bad) big man coach if you played guard in college (or didn't ever play college ball at all). You can be a good (or bad) big man coach with various amounts of experience.

rasputin
12-16-2009, 12:03 PM
It is nice to see that Z now gets it--when you get an offensive board, just put it back up and in, and don't dribble. He's been doing it right the last few games, and the results are there.

soccerstud2210
12-16-2009, 12:07 PM
It is nice to see that Z now gets it--when you get an offensive board, just put it back up and in, and don't dribble. He's been doing it right the last few games, and the results are there.

i still would love to see him just throw it down. a 7 footer laying it up is a little frustrating! :) but i'll take it either way as long as it goes in! :)

Kedsy
12-16-2009, 12:12 PM
i still would love to see him just throw it down. a 7 footer laying it up is a little frustrating! :) but i'll take it either way as long as it goes in! :)

I saw him dunk twice last year. Haven't seen it this year, yet. On the other hand, since his shooting percentage is over 60% (and he usually gets the offensive board on the rare occasion that he misses), it's hard to argue with the results.

arnie
12-16-2009, 12:17 PM
Yes, the real question (and I'm not in any position to answer it) is merely whether Wojo is any good at coaching big men. The answer to that has little/nothing to do with his height, his college position, or the amount of experience he has at this point. It's all about whether he's good at it or not.

You can be a good (or bad) big man coach even if you're small. You can be a good (or bad) big man coach if you played guard in college (or didn't ever play college ball at all). You can be a good (or bad) big man coach with various amounts of experience.

Excellent post! I also don't know if Wojo is a good or bad big man coach, but in recent years our bigs have not signficantly developed. It seems they keep many of the same habits - maybe its not the fault of Wojo, it may just be that we've had a string of bad luck with these highly recruited players. Anyway, I think the key to our tournament success lies with the Plumlees. Let's hope they develop and improve as rapidly as Hansblow, Deon, etc.

Kedsy
12-16-2009, 12:48 PM
Let's hope they develop and improve as rapidly as Hansblow, Deon, etc.

I don't know why everything has to be about Carolina, but putting that aside, I don't see how the word "rapid" can be used to describe the development/improvement of either Hansbrough or Thompson.

In his first four games, Hansbrough averaged 18 and 7. For his freshman year he averaged 19 and 8. His sophomore year he averaged 18 and 8, and by his senior year he was all the way up to 21 and 8. Was he good? Undoubtedly, but those numbers don't really show any development or improvement at all. He was good the moment he first stepped on campus.

Thompson was 5 and 2 his freshman year, 8 and 5 his sophomore year, and 10 and 6 his junior year. (This year, so far, he's at 17 and 8, although who knows if those numbers will continue once they get to the ACC schedule. Even if they do, it took him four years to get here.) Improvement? Certainly. Rapid? Well, Miles has gone from 2 and 1.5 as a freshman to 8 and 7 so far this year, and your comment seems to imply you don't consider that to be rapid development.

KyDevilinIL
12-16-2009, 12:50 PM
There just aren't as many legitimate bigs to go around, so when a school lands a big who doesn't live up to expectations, it always seems like a disaster. To think Duke is the only program having this sort of discussion right now is silly.

These things go in cycles. It wasn't all that long ago we had Shelden; and had we been able to sign, say, Patrick Patterson, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation anyway.

That said, I'm not entirely satisfied with what our bigs have shown so far this season, but I'm OK with where we stand at this point. This is the best we've seen from Zoubek, both Plumlees seem to be inching closer to flipping the switch. We're in decent shape.

jipops
12-16-2009, 01:10 PM
I don't know why everything has to be about Carolina, but putting that aside, I don't see how the word "rapid" can be used to describe the development/improvement of either Hansbrough or Thompson.

In his first four games, Hansbrough averaged 18 and 7. For his freshman year he averaged 19 and 8. His sophomore year he averaged 18 and 8, and by his senior year he was all the way up to 21 and 8. Was he good? Undoubtedly, but those numbers don't really show any development or improvement at all. He was good the moment he first stepped on campus.

Thompson was 5 and 2 his freshman year, 8 and 5 his sophomore year, and 10 and 6 his junior year. (This year, so far, he's at 17 and 8, although who knows if those numbers will continue once they get to the ACC schedule. Even if they do, it took him four years to get here.) Improvement? Certainly. Rapid? Well, Miles has gone from 2 and 1.5 as a freshman to 8 and 7 so far this year, and your comment seems to imply you don't consider that to be rapid development.

You're spot on here. I would also add that Thompson is getting a ton more touches this season than last due to the fact that there are no longer perimeter offensive threats to the level of Lawson, Ellington, and Green. Of course his numbers are going to be up dramatically this year. Deon showed a lot of offensive promise coming in too, it's not like the UNC coaches were working with only a little bit of skill here.

This age of 1 and 2 year players seems to cloud judgment on the development of players. Not every player becomes a star or major cog by their sophomore year. Miles is showing plenty of promise in getting there. No need to rush to judgment on his development. BTW, anybody notice the nice running hook he had last night?

CDu
12-16-2009, 01:20 PM
You're spot on here. I would also add that Thompson is getting a ton more touches this season than last due to the fact that there are no longer perimeter offensive threats to the level of Lawson, Ellington, and Green. Of course his numbers are going to be up dramatically this year. Deon showed a lot of offensive promise coming in too, it's not like the UNC coaches were working with only a little bit of skill here.

His offensive efficiency has improved quite a bit this year. He's shooting 5% better on FG and 15% better on FT than last year, and he's averaging .2 more points per shot than last year. So I'd say that in addition to the increased volume of shots, he has shown improvement. But that said, I completely agree that nothing about the development of Hansbrough or Thompson at the college level was rapid.


This age of 1 and 2 year players seems to cloud judgment on the development of players. Not every player becomes a star or major cog by their sophomore year. Miles is showing plenty of promise in getting there. No need to rush to judgment on his development. BTW, anybody notice the nice running hook he had last night?

This is especially true for bigger players. Those guys aren't nearly as used to competing against quality big guys night-in and night-out as guards are. The depth of quality bigs in high school pales in comparison to college, whereas guard quality goes a lot deeper.

BD80
12-16-2009, 02:14 PM
... Thompson was 5 and 2 his freshman year, 8 and 5 his sophomore year, and 10 and 6 his junior year. (This year, so far, he's at 17 and 8, although who knows if those numbers will continue once they get to the ACC schedule. Even if they do, it took him four years to get here.) Improvement? Certainly. Rapid? Well, ...


You're spot on here. I would also add that Thompson is getting a ton more touches this season than last due to the fact that there are no longer perimeter offensive threats to the level of Lawson, Ellington, and Green. Of course his numbers are going to be up dramatically this year. ...

And there is no Hansbla and his traveling show sucking up possessions and rebounds in the paint.

Devilsfan
12-16-2009, 02:17 PM
Finally we're seeing fairly decent play from Brian and not guessing what we'll see from him next. I think he surprised everyone including his teammates with his play. Hope he can do this against ACC caliber player and not just the Gardner Webbs of the world. It would sure make a difference on how far we go this year.

arnie
12-16-2009, 03:09 PM
I don't know why everything has to be about Carolina, but putting that aside, I don't see how the word "rapid" can be used to describe the development/improvement of either Hansbrough or Thompson.

In his first four games, Hansbrough averaged 18 and 7. For his freshman year he averaged 19 and 8. His sophomore year he averaged 18 and 8, and by his senior year he was all the way up to 21 and 8. Was he good? Undoubtedly, but those numbers don't really show any development or improvement at all. He was good the moment he first stepped on campus.

Thompson was 5 and 2 his freshman year, 8 and 5 his sophomore year, and 10 and 6 his junior year. (This year, so far, he's at 17 and 8, although who knows if those numbers will continue once they get to the ACC schedule. Even if they do, it took him four years to get here.) Improvement? Certainly. Rapid? Well, Miles has gone from 2 and 1.5 as a freshman to 8 and 7 so far this year, and your comment seems to imply you don't consider that to be rapid development.

You're right - rapid is not the right word. However, it is frustrating that Hansblo and Deon have outperformed Randolph, McBob (different type player), Boateng, Michael Thompson, Thomas and Zoubek (all highly recruited bigs). The development of the Plumlees is critical and I think it will happen this year.

Billy Dat
12-16-2009, 03:14 PM
Does it drive any one else crazy to see Zoubek constantly trying to take charges right under the basket? Zou - you are 7 feet tall - if a guard penetrates - keep your feet under you and swat that shot!

Kedsy
12-16-2009, 04:57 PM
You're right - rapid is not the right word. However, it is frustrating that Hansblo and Deon have outperformed Randolph, McBob (different type player), Boateng, Michael Thompson, Thomas and Zoubek (all highly recruited bigs). The development of the Plumlees is critical and I think it will happen this year.

Well, I think you're talking about two complete different species here. And I don't mean Duke players and UNC players; I'm talking about top 10 recruits and non-top 10.

RSCI goes back to 1998. Here's the list of top 10 big-man recruits at Duke and UNC (I'm defining "big man" as someone 6'8" or taller):

Duke:
Carlos Boozer, #8
Shelden Williams, #8
Luol Deng, #2
Josh McRoberts, #1
Kyle Singler, #5

UNC:
Jason Capel, #10
Sean May, #9
Marvin Williams, #7
Tyler Hansbrough, #4
Brandan Wright, #3
Ed Davis, #9
John Henson, #5

All of them, even McBob and Jason Capel, made an impact as freshmen and for as long as they stayed at school. Except Henson, but the jury's still out on him. Only three of these guys (Shelden, Jason Capel, & Hans) stayed four years, and two of them have their jerseys in the rafters. Overall, I don't think you can easily say one of these groups performed appreciably better than the other.

Here's the rest:

Duke:
Casey Sanders, #16
Mike Dunleavy, #26**
Eric Boateng, #39**
Michael Thompson, #30**
Shavlik Randolph, #14**
Lance Thomas, #20
Brian Zoubek, #25
Olek Czyz, #66
Miles Plumlee, #81
Ryan Kelly, #14
Mason Plumlee, #18

UNC:
Kris Lang, #22
Neil Fingleton, #54**
Jawad Williams, #11
Reyshawn Terry, #60
Alex Stepheson, #39**
Deon Thompson, #43
Tyler Zeller, #18
David Wear, #37
Travis Wear, #38

** -- didn't last in the program for four years.

Note that the biggest disappointments on both sides transferred out (or in Shav's case went on to be an NBA undrafted free agent). We have no idea what they might have done if they'd stayed four years. Note also that hardly any of these guys made any kind of impact their freshmen year -- the exceptions being Dunleavy, Lang and Jawad Williams, who was rated #11 (pretty close to top 10).

Deon Thompson, Terry, Lang, and Jawad Williams all lasted four years. Lang and Jawad Williams had four good but not great years. Terry and Deon Thompson did little their first two years and had good but not great junior years. Terry's senior year was a slight regression from the year before, and Thompson appears to be breaking out, finally, in his senior season. Not sure what to expect from Zeller, but my guess is we won't see impact-worthy stats from him until his junior and senior seasons and the Wears probably won't make an impact until their senior year, if then.

On Duke's side, you could say Dunleavy shouldn't count, but he was the same height and weight as Jawad Williams and he had better rebounding stats than Williams as well. Obviously if he counts he's the top of the non-top 10 class on either side. Lance and Brian are the first guys to stay four years since Casey Sanders in 1999, and (lo and behold) they are playing their best ball (as Casey did his senior year with 5 points and 5 rebounds; not much, perhaps, but easily his best statistical performance). Lance has played significant minutes all four years but has not made much of a statistical impact. Miles Plumlee is already looking better as a sophomore than anybody on UNC's list (as sophomores) except Lang and Jawad Williams. He appears (to me at least) to be advancing at a similar or better pace than Deon Thompson. Obviously not a lot to go on, but Mason could end up being one of the best on either side. I'm hopeful for Ryan, and I don't think it's a stretch to see him as ultimately better than Terry (and maybe Jawad Williams and/or Lang as well, although their freshman stats will end up better than his). It's hard to see Olek having an impact until his senior year, if at all.

I suppose all this is just a long-winded way of saying I don't see UNC's development of big men as any better than Duke's. Although 7 of the 20 non-top 10 guys are currently freshmen or sophomores, so how those 7 players develop might give us a different answer to that question.

Put another way, if you were choosing sides for a pickup game among the 20 non-top 10 big men of both teams (considering probable career path for the 7 guys who are freshmen or sophomores) you pick Dunleavy, Jawad Williams, Lang, Deon Thompson, both Plumlees, Terry, Zeller, presumably Kelly (although it's all projection with him), and then probably Thomas, but maybe Zoubek by the end of the year, or maybe the better Wear (if you're Wheat). Unless you're Wheat, that's 5 from each school, although Duke has the clear #1 (and if Mason becomes as good as I think he will, the clear #2).

Combine that with the fact that the top 10 group from each team is pretty similar in their accomplishments, and I repeat that neither school appears to be developing big men any better than the other.


(I know someone is going to want to say that a lot of these guys aren't really "big men" but rather tall wings, and that may be true. But no matter how you slice it, a 6'8" or 6'9" guy is big in the college game. Besides, even if you want to limit the discussion to "true" centers, I think it's still pretty much a tie.)

arnie
12-16-2009, 08:40 PM
Well, I think you're talking about two complete different species here. And I don't mean Duke players and UNC players; I'm talking about top 10 recruits and non-top 10.

RSCI goes back to 1998. Here's the list of top 10 big-man recruits at Duke and UNC (I'm defining "big man" as someone 6'8" or taller):

Duke:
Carlos Boozer, #8
Shelden Williams, #8
Luol Deng, #2
Josh McRoberts, #1
Kyle Singler, #5

UNC:
Jason Capel, #10
Sean May, #9
Marvin Williams, #7
Tyler Hansbrough, #4
Brandan Wright, #3
Ed Davis, #9
John Henson, #5

All of them, even McBob and Jason Capel, made an impact as freshmen and for as long as they stayed at school. Except Henson, but the jury's still out on him. Only three of these guys (Shelden, Jason Capel, & Hans) stayed four years, and two of them have their jerseys in the rafters. Overall, I don't think you can easily say one of these groups performed appreciably better than the other.

Here's the rest:

Duke:
Casey Sanders, #16
Mike Dunleavy, #26**
Eric Boateng, #39**
Michael Thompson, #30**
Shavlik Randolph, #14**
Lance Thomas, #20
Brian Zoubek, #25
Olek Czyz, #66
Miles Plumlee, #81
Ryan Kelly, #14
Mason Plumlee, #18

UNC:
Kris Lang, #22
Neil Fingleton, #54**
Jawad Williams, #11
Reyshawn Terry, #60
Alex Stepheson, #39**
Deon Thompson, #43
Tyler Zeller, #18
David Wear, #37
Travis Wear, #38

** -- didn't last in the program for four years.

Note that the biggest disappointments on both sides transferred out (or in Shav's case went on to be an NBA undrafted free agent). We have no idea what they might have done if they'd stayed four years. Note also that hardly any of these guys made any kind of impact their freshmen year -- the exceptions being Dunleavy, Lang and Jawad Williams, who was rated #11 (pretty close to top 10).

Deon Thompson, Terry, Lang, and Jawad Williams all lasted four years. Lang and Jawad Williams had four good but not great years. Terry and Deon Thompson did little their first two years and had good but not great junior years. Terry's senior year was a slight regression from the year before, and Thompson appears to be breaking out, finally, in his senior season. Not sure what to expect from Zeller, but my guess is we won't see impact-worthy stats from him until his junior and senior seasons and the Wears probably won't make an impact until their senior year, if then.

On Duke's side, you could say Dunleavy shouldn't count, but he was the same height and weight as Jawad Williams and he had better rebounding stats than Williams as well. Obviously if he counts he's the top of the non-top 10 class on either side. Lance and Brian are the first guys to stay four years since Casey Sanders in 1999, and (lo and behold) they are playing their best ball (as Casey did his senior year with 5 points and 5 rebounds; not much, perhaps, but easily his best statistical performance). Lance has played significant minutes all four years but has not made much of a statistical impact. Miles Plumlee is already looking better as a sophomore than anybody on UNC's list (as sophomores) except Lang and Jawad Williams. He appears (to me at least) to be advancing at a similar or better pace than Deon Thompson. Obviously not a lot to go on, but Mason could end up being one of the best on either side. I'm hopeful for Ryan, and I don't think it's a stretch to see him as ultimately better than Terry (and maybe Jawad Williams and/or Lang as well, although their freshman stats will end up better than his). It's hard to see Olek having an impact until his senior year, if at all.

I suppose all this is just a long-winded way of saying I don't see UNC's development of big men as any better than Duke's. Although 7 of the 20 non-top 10 guys are currently freshmen or sophomores, so how those 7 players develop might give us a different answer to that question.

Put another way, if you were choosing sides for a pickup game among the 20 non-top 10 big men of both teams (considering probable career path for the 7 guys who are freshmen or sophomores) you pick Dunleavy, Jawad Williams, Lang, Deon Thompson, both Plumlees, Terry, Zeller, presumably Kelly (although it's all projection with him), and then probably Thomas, but maybe Zoubek by the end of the year, or maybe the better Wear (if you're Wheat). Unless you're Wheat, that's 5 from each school, although Duke has the clear #1 (and if Mason becomes as good as I think he will, the clear #2).

Combine that with the fact that the top 10 group from each team is pretty similar in their accomplishments, and I repeat that neither school appears to be developing big men any better than the other.


(I know someone is going to want to say that a lot of these guys aren't really "big men" but rather tall wings, and that may be true. But no matter how you slice it, a 6'8" or 6'9" guy is big in the college game. Besides, even if you want to limit the discussion to "true" centers, I think it's still pretty much a tie.)

You put a lot of time into this - pretty interesting list. The list of Duke "bigs" ranked outside the top 10 (which I contend doesn't include Dunleavy) have been very disappointing considering their relatively high ranking. But the good news hopefully lies with the Plumlees.

The only two heels outside the top 10 that can be considered disappointing are Fingleton and Lang.

Anyway, thanks for compiling this.

Kedsy
12-16-2009, 10:45 PM
You put a lot of time into this - pretty interesting list. The list of Duke "bigs" ranked outside the top 10 (which I contend doesn't include Dunleavy) have been very disappointing considering their relatively high ranking. But the good news hopefully lies with the Plumlees.

The only two heels outside the top 10 that can be considered disappointing are Fingleton and Lang.

Anyway, thanks for compiling this.

You're welcome. I thought it would be interesting to see how the teams compared.

As I said before, Dunleavy has to count as much as Jawad Williams -- they were the exact same height and weight, and both played more on the perimeter than inside. Dunleavy was a better rebounder (5.8 for his career vs. 4.8 for Williams). So IMO you can't discount one without nixing the other too. And frankly, if you ding those two you'd have to boot Terry as well, who was also more of an outside than an inside player.

Do you think Lang was a bust? His career numbers of 11 and 5 are only slightly worse than Jawad Williams's 13 and 5, and are much better than Terry's 7 and 3.5 and Stepheson's 3 and 3. And while I'm pretty sure Zeller will put up some numbers before he leaves, the Wears could easily end up disappointments too (although of course they might be fine by the end of their careers; it's really impossible to say with any certainty). Ultimately, if Lang can be considered a disappointment, then only Thompson and probably Zeller wouldn't be and, frankly, assuming Thompson has a big year this year it will be the only year he exceeded Lang's career averages, and Zeller will go at least his first two years without doing so.

I understand why you say our guys were disappointments, but I really think it's just the nature of the beast for non-top 10 big men. If you discount the "tall wings," the only decent guys on UNC's list are Thompson, Zeller, and Lang (who you think was a disappointment). If Kelly and the Plumlees work out (and I think they will) then once again it's a tie, although we'll also have to wait and see whether Kelly will really be a tall wing and thus be disqualified.

The other interesting thing about this analysis is what (if anything) does it say about Josh Hairston (#27), Roscoe Smith (#28), and TaShawn Mabry (unranked)? Maybe nothing, if they're "tall wings," but who knows? Perhaps Hairston and/or one of the others will be another "development" feather in our cap?

ScreechTDX1847
12-16-2009, 11:26 PM
Does it drive any one else crazy to see Zoubek constantly trying to take charges right under the basket? Zou - you are 7 feet tall - if a guard penetrates - keep your feet under you and swat that shot!

I know this sounds very cynical...but, I would rather Z try to take a charge than make an athletic play on the ball.:o...

Don't get me wrong. I love Z.:D

CDu
12-17-2009, 09:00 AM
You're welcome. I thought it would be interesting to see how the teams compared.

As I said before, Dunleavy has to count as much as Jawad Williams -- they were the exact same height and weight, and both played more on the perimeter than inside. Dunleavy was a better rebounder (5.8 for his career vs. 4.8 for Williams). So IMO you can't discount one without nixing the other too. And frankly, if you ding those two you'd have to boot Terry as well, who was also more of an outside than an inside player.

I have a couple of disagreements. Basically, the primary one would be using height as your criteria. Based on that 6'8" criteria, Czyz would be excluded, right (he's 6'7")? But regardless, it's a pretty poor measure as it leads to grouping very different types of players unless you're too restrictive with the height limit.

For example, Jawad Williams was recruited as a PF and played their pretty much exclusively in college (a college PF does frequently see the perimeter though, as Williams did). Dunleavy, Capel, and Terry on the other hand were all recruited as guards/wings. The three of them should not be included, but Williams should. The only reason that Dunleavy would be considered a big is because he happened to grow an extra few inches after his recruitment, and Duke decided to play small. But he and Williams were very different style players. Thus, it's not really appropriate to compare the schools' abilities to develop them as big men. Capel, Terry, and Dunleavy were never intended to develop as big men. Williams was.

Terry, Capel, and Dunleavy were similar, and shouldn't have been included. Conversely, Czyz probably should be included as he really was a post player.

NSDukeFan
12-17-2009, 09:09 AM
I have a couple of disagreements. Basically, the primary one would be using height as your criteria. Based on that 6'8" criteria, Czyz would be excluded, right (he's 6'7")? But regardless, it's a pretty poor measure as it leads to grouping very different types of players unless you're too restrictive with the height limit.

For example, Jawad Williams was recruited as a PF and played their pretty much exclusively in college (a college PF does frequently see the perimeter though, as Williams did). Dunleavy, Capel, and Terry on the other hand were all recruited as guards/wings. The three of them should not be included, but Williams should. The only reason that Dunleavy would be considered a big is because he happened to grow an extra few inches after his recruitment, and Duke decided to play small. But he and Williams were very different style players. Thus, it's not really appropriate to compare the schools' abilities to develop them as big men. Capel, Terry, and Dunleavy were never intended to develop as big men. Williams was.

Terry, Capel, and Dunleavy were similar, and shouldn't have been included. Conversely, Czyz probably should be included as he really was a post player.

Isn't Czyz being developed on the perimeter more so than inside though?

CDu
12-17-2009, 09:25 AM
Isn't Czyz being developed on the perimeter more so than inside though?

Fair point. He could be excluded as well under that concept. I think that's fair. So exclude Czyz, Dunleavy, Terry, and Capel, and keep Williams on the list.

DukieInKansas
12-17-2009, 09:46 AM
Kedsy mentioned Kris Lang - how long will it take someone to post the picture?

I know the competition wasn't that stiff on Tuesday, but I was really happy to see Z play well. I hope this gives him confidence for the games ahead against stiffer competition.

DukieInBrasil
12-17-2009, 10:20 AM
Z is leading the team in rebounding so far, and while he occasionally has been very quiet on offense he has always (except in 1 game) done an adequate job rebounding. His rebounding per minute numbers continue to be excellent.

Kedsy
12-17-2009, 11:47 AM
I have a couple of disagreements. Basically, the primary one would be using height as your criteria. Based on that 6'8" criteria, Czyz would be excluded, right (he's 6'7")? But regardless, it's a pretty poor measure as it leads to grouping very different types of players unless you're too restrictive with the height limit.

For example, Jawad Williams was recruited as a PF and played their pretty much exclusively in college (a college PF does frequently see the perimeter though, as Williams did). Dunleavy, Capel, and Terry on the other hand were all recruited as guards/wings. The three of them should not be included, but Williams should. The only reason that Dunleavy would be considered a big is because he happened to grow an extra few inches after his recruitment, and Duke decided to play small. But he and Williams were very different style players. Thus, it's not really appropriate to compare the schools' abilities to develop them as big men. Capel, Terry, and Dunleavy were never intended to develop as big men. Williams was.

Terry, Capel, and Dunleavy were similar, and shouldn't have been included. Conversely, Czyz probably should be included as he really was a post player.

Yes, I know it was arbitrary, but I did it the way I did because I have no way of knowing for what position these guys were recruited. I acknowledged that a lot of these guys were really "tall wings."

Jawad Williams may have been recruited to be a PF, but he was pretty skinny if so (same exact listed weight as Dunleavy). I would disagree that he played PF at UNC, though. Or, put another way, if he played PF at UNC then Dunleavy played PF at Duke. My recollection of Jawad Williams was he almost never ventured anywhere near the lane. He took a lot of three point shots, and he rebounded like a wing (fewer than 5 rebounds per game in his career, significantly worse than Dunleavy). He certainly shouldn't be in the conversation about whether UNC develops "big men" better than Duke does.

If you want to discount wing-type players, I'd nix Capel, Dunleavy, Jawad Williams, and Terry for sure. I might go further and toss out some or all of Deng, Singler, Kelly, Czyz, Lance Thomas, Henson, Wright, and Marvin Williams, because none of these guys are/were "true" bigs.

But I didn't want to get into a debate about whether Brandan Wright was really a 3/4 playing out of position or whether Tyler Zeller is a true back-to-the-basket big man, or whether Kelly's quick enough to play wing or whether John Henson could get knocked over by a stiff wind. And after looking at the data, I didn't think we had to.

The question I was exploring was whether UNC really "develops" big men better than Duke. My initial hypothesis was that almost all the good big men on either team were top ten recruits and top ten recruits generally do pretty well, which appears to be true. My second hypothesis was that non-top 10 big men probably won't have an impact no matter what school they attend, and that also appears to be true (albeit with a tiny sample size of two teams).

If you don't count current freshmen or sophomores, whose development is still to come, the only non-top 10 big man on either side who has developed into anything resembling a star is Deon Thompson, and that only happened his senior year (and frankly is based on a sample of nine games -- we don't know for sure that he's going to be a force once the ACC schedule rolls around), and maybe Lang (although his numbers didn't really improve much from freshman to senior year so one could argue he didn't "develop" at all; you could also argue that he was really just a mediocre player who got a lot of minutes on some mediocre UNC teams).

If you do count current underclassmen, then the Plumlees appear poised to even the score (or maybe go one down: Thompson, Lang, Zeller vs. MP1 and MP2; unless you count Kelly too...).

So no matter how you classify these things, the whining that Duke can't develop big men as well as other teams seems to be off base (although obviously a sample of two teams is not anywhere near robust enough to say anything for sure). The guys we didn't "develop" probably wouldn't have developed at UNC (or anywhere else), either.

Although having said all that, I would also argue that Lance (if he counts as a big man) and especially Z have developed quite nicely. MP1 has developed very nicely, for an 81st ranked recruit. They just haven't become stars (though that may be still to come for MP1). The real issue is based on their (non-top 10) recruit ranking we shouldn't have expected them to become stars. The problem is ours (the fans), and not really the players or the coaching staff.

HaveFunExpectToWin
12-17-2009, 02:20 PM
Kedsy mentioned Kris Lang - how long will it take someone to post the picture?

So be it...

http://www.deaconarchive.net/image/opponents/krislang.JPG