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striker219
11-29-2009, 11:23 PM
If a David plays well and fights a Goliath to the wire but can't quite pull out the "W", it is often considered a moral victory. My question is, could the win Carolina managed to eek out against Nevada be considered a moral loss?

Can't shoot free throws, can't dribble penetrate, lost against the zone...

feldspar
11-29-2009, 11:31 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Carolina is just not that good this year. All I keep hearing from the pundits is that they're only going to keep getting better as the season goes on, but I'm not seeing it so far.

I'm smelling an old-fashioned Michigan St beatdown this week, and a follow up beat down on Saturday vs. Kentucky.

DevilHorns
11-29-2009, 11:32 PM
If a David plays well and fights a Goliath to the wire but can't quite pull out the "W", it is often considered a moral victory. My question is, could the win Carolina managed to eek out against Nevada be considered a moral loss?

Can't shoot free throws, can't dribble penetrate, lost against the zone...

W is a W, IMO. Each W has things to learn from, improve upon, what have you. This one will have a lot of tape for Carolina to review.

DevilHorns
11-29-2009, 11:34 PM
I'm smelling an old-fashioned Michigan St beatdown this week, and a follow up beat down on Saturday vs. Kentucky.

UK has had more near misses than any "top" team this year. I wouldn't be suprised if UNC woops em.

Duvall
11-29-2009, 11:41 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Carolina is just not that good this year. All I keep hearing from the pundits is that they're only going to keep getting better as the season goes on, but I'm not seeing it so far.

Well, maybe. The Heels have three good players; their problem is that all three play the same position. If even one of their freshmen improves enough to give them some help on the perimeter - any help - they'll be okay. Not great, but okay.


I'm smelling an old-fashioned Michigan St beatdown this week, and a follow up beat down on Saturday vs. Kentucky.

We can hope, but it wouldn't shock me if UNC won either game, or both. As dukemsu noted in another thread, Sparty has a habit of getting too hyped up for big games like this, and Kentucky, despite having all-world talent, simply hasn't gelled yet this year. Somebody is going to get them early, and it might well be the Heels.

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-29-2009, 11:44 PM
I don't think there is any kind of moral loss. A win is a win, but a there is such a thing as a moral win even if you loss the game.

JaMarcus Russell
11-29-2009, 11:44 PM
UNC reminds me quite a bit of the 2006-07 Duke team. Granted the UNC team does have some senior leadership (Ginyard and Thompson) while the Duke team had just one upperclassman, and Scheyer and Henderson were significantly better than any of the current UNC freshmen, but both squads are 5 or 6 seed caliber teams from traditional powerhouses.

darthur
11-30-2009, 12:12 AM
UK has had more near misses than any "top" team this year. I wouldn't be suprised if UNC woops em.

Yeah, UK would be my choice for biggest fraud in the top 10 right now. Not that I've seen them or anything, but even so.

geraldsneighbor
11-30-2009, 12:47 AM
Duke had a win last year vs. URI by 3 points I believe that we had to sweat out till the bitter end.

UNC has their flaws but like UK has done this year they found a way to win the game. I think the Holes are probably a 15-20 team in the country and UK is ranked strictly by potential. This week we will learn a lot about each of these teams.

SeattleIrish
11-30-2009, 01:01 AM
Before ASU blew out LSU, many may have pinned the "moral loss" tag on Duke. UNC has a ton of talent, and they'll be a challenge for almost any team they face on the floor.

If there is a moral loss for UNC in this game, it was in the crowd - the DD was only half full and the "fans" didn't even stick around to see 'ole Roy get honored for his 600th win. The fan support at that school, outside of the big games, can be pretty pathetic.:confused:

s.i.

-bdbd
11-30-2009, 01:02 AM
Since the biggest benefit of a "moral victory" is supposedly psychological - giving a previously downtrodden team great confidence going forward - the I have to think that a "moral loss" is possible as well. IOW, a "win" that leaves the victor with greater doubts about their abilities and status. Though, as we know so well, "humility" has never been a term used often in the same sentence with "Carolina basketball" or "Carolina fans," I think that you have to believe these guys are starting to doubt their collective ability. Certainly none of them are crowing about FF expectations right now.

Confidence (or a lack of it) can make collapse come all that quicker if things start to go poorly against a solid opponent like MSU or (supposedly talent-wise) UK. Let's see how they react if things start going south in one/both of these upcoming games...

By the way, I have to believe that Duke as a team is feeling MORE confident than how they did starting the season. As a fan, I am feeling much better about our chances than I was a few weeks ago...

:D

RelativeWays
11-30-2009, 08:11 AM
Nevada is not a bad team, that Babbitt kid really reminded me of how Kyle plays, though less perimeter oriented. The sheep played to their strengths and that was rebounding and second chance baskets.

UNC will find out a lot about their team this month and they'll know what they need to correct for the ACC season. I don't think they are anywhere near the best team in the ACC right now, we'll see where things lay in March. I've followed this game long enough to know that writing anyone off in November is foolish, same with assuming a great November/December team will still be great come March.

NYDukie
11-30-2009, 08:27 AM
If a David plays well and fights a Goliath to the wire but can't quite pull out the "W", it is often considered a moral victory. My question is, could the win Carolina managed to eek out against Nevada be considered a moral loss?

Can't shoot free throws, can't dribble penetrate, lost against the zone...

I wouldn't say its a moral loss. If this situation had happened to Duke many would be spinning it as a good tough win against a solid mid major, the type of team we may see early in the NCAA's giving the team the opportunity to improve on XYZ. I think because it's UNC, a lot of us like to jump to conclusions on them and make predictions on their season just 6 games in or so while at the same time we become defensive of those that critique our Duke team the same amount of games in.

Bottom line is both teams have their strengths and some warts but will be major players come March, just that our boys will be better IMO come March this time around.

Chitowndevil
11-30-2009, 09:24 AM
I don't put much stock in moral victories or losses. A win is a win.

That said, I do think a team's weaknesses can be exposed in a win and strengths discovered in a loss, and that can play a big role in a team's development or lack thereof. I don't call those 'moral victories' though as I think resulting development has a lot more to do with what you do in practice afterward (and what opponents do to exploit you).

I don't see UNC as even a very good team this year, much less a great one. This will be the first time at Carolina that Roy Williams will have to make due with a less than all-ACC PG. I think you'll see a big difference at both ends.

And don't be too quick to count out UK due to early season struggles. The past few games made me remember Duke's struggles during Jason Williams's first few games at the point. We also saw how much Tyreke Evans and Derek Rose improved in terms of fitting into the team the last couple of seasons.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-30-2009, 09:44 AM
That was another game of player development from 'Ol Roy.
He did a nice job too. When it was time to turn it up at the six minute mark to put it away, he brought the starters in, challenged them, and they stepped it up.

Nevada was not a bad team, either. They were pretty quick and could shoot it. Heels did a much better job of taking care of the ball than they have been and it showed with the quality of the defense.

This is not the well oiled, smooth team you saw last year. That team was a porsche, this team is an SUV, with leather interior.

Deon is giving Scheyer some competition for the early lead for ACC POY.

Larry Drew is doing what a good point guard should do. 12pts, 10ast, 1 TO last night and controlled the pace. Shooting free throws is the problem that's going to bite this team, not the point guard.

Graves is still laying in the tall grass. He's doing the little things well, solid D, taking care of the ball and rebounding strong, but so far has been pretty patient waiting for his shots and still has not found the flow. He is going to break out with an 18-20pt night sooner or later.

The minutes narrowed some last night and I think he's settled on the nine players to see the majority of time.
He'll start Deon,Davis,Graves,Ginyard and Drew.
Zeller, will play quite a bit, Henson, Strickland, Wear will provide rest minutes.

This is a good team, a top ten team. Just not last years level team.

whereinthehellami
11-30-2009, 09:56 AM
MSU and KY both have good athletic backcourts that will give UNC problems. I think UK will be the type of team that plays to their level of competition. UK has alot of talent though for sure. I think UNC loses both of these games, the UK game could be a blowout.

jv001
11-30-2009, 10:02 AM
That was another game of player development from 'Ol Roy.

The minutes narrowed some last night and I think he's settled on the nine players to see the majority of time.
He'll start Deon,Davis,Graves,Ginyard and Drew.
Zeller, will play quite a bit, Henson, Strickland, Wear will provide rest minutes.

This is a good team, a top ten team. Just not last years level team.

strickland is not going to get major minutes? I thought that he's the on the court coach. You know the one that really knows about the system. Even the Duke system. "Rest minutes" for strickland???? Maybe he should just stick to learning how to play the game and not giving high school players advice about Duke's system. Go Duke!

Wheat/"/"/"
11-30-2009, 10:09 AM
strickland is not going to get major minutes? I thought that he's the on the court coach. You know the one that really knows about the system. Even the Duke system. "Rest minutes" for strickland???? Maybe he should just stick to learning how to playing the game and not giving high school players advice about Duke's system. Go Duke!

I guess the freshman struck a nerve? ;)

Rest minutes (replacing Ginyard and Drew) for the forseeable future, up to about 10 minutes a game would be my guess until he gets more comfortable and makes better decisions. He is a freshman after all.

airowe
11-30-2009, 10:16 AM
At least roy isn't forcing Strickland to fit into his "system". I know our backcourt is thin and it wouldn't be pretty if we lost one of our guards, but can you imagine if LD2 were to go down? Or one of their "Big 3"?

airowe
11-30-2009, 10:19 AM
I guess the freshman struck a nerve? ;)

Rest minutes (replacing Ginyard and Drew) for the forseeable future, up to about 10 minutes a game would be my guess until he gets more comfortable and makes better decisions. He is a freshman after all.

But, but I thought roy played a deep bench and showcased his 5-star Freshmen?

oldnavy
11-30-2009, 10:28 AM
That was another game of player development from 'Ol Roy.
He did a nice job too. When it was time to turn it up at the six minute mark to put it away, he brought the starters in, challenged them, and they stepped it up.

Nevada was not a bad team, either. They were pretty quick and could shoot it. Heels did a much better job of taking care of the ball than they have been and it showed with the quality of the defense.

This is not the well oiled, smooth team you saw last year. That team was a porsche, this team is an SUV, with leather interior.

Deon is giving Scheyer some competition for the early lead for ACC POY.

Larry Drew is doing what a good point guard should do. 12pts, 10ast, 1 TO last night and controlled the pace. Shooting free throws is the problem that's going to bite this team, not the point guard.

Graves is still laying in the tall grass. He's doing the little things well, solid D, taking care of the ball and rebounding strong, but so far has been pretty patient waiting for his shots and still has not found the flow. He is going to break out with an 18-20pt night sooner or later.

The minutes narrowed some last night and I think he's settled on the nine players to see the majority of time.
He'll start Deon,Davis,Graves,Ginyard and Drew.
Zeller, will play quite a bit, Henson, Strickland, Wear will provide rest minutes.

This is a good team, a top ten team. Just not last years level team.

Wheat, I love your optimism. I am not sure that many Blue Devil fans would be as up about our team if we had been performing like the holes have so far. I truly mean that as a compliment, keep the faith baby!

Wheat/"/"/"
11-30-2009, 10:35 AM
But, but I thought roy played a deep bench and showcased his 5-star Freshmen?

Roy likes to use a deep bench, and he has to this point, but they have to get it done. The freshmen have serious talent, but they are playing like freshmen. So they sit 'till they improve from here on.

And yes, Drew is the one player this team would really miss if he went down.

oldnavy
11-30-2009, 10:41 AM
Roy likes to use a deep bench, and he has to this point, but they have to get it done. The freshmen have serious talent, but they are playing like freshmen. So they sit 'till they improve from here on.

And yes, Drew is the one player this team would really miss if he went down.

Speaking of sitting, someone needs to tell Ol' Roy to stay in the seat until his shoulder heals. Seriously, he needs to rest himself some. Maybe he can develop his coaching bench, get Robinson more involved in the ref berating! That little fist pump he did after DrewII hit the three towards the end was a little sad!

Wheat/"/"/"
11-30-2009, 10:47 AM
Wheat, I love your optimism. I am not sure that many Blue Devil fans would be as up about our team if we had been performing like the holes have so far. I truly mean that as a compliment, keep the faith baby!

If you look at this team from how Roy has played them in the early games, it's not surprising they have not looked particularly good protecting the ball or with their ball movement and shot selection. These are big kids, not a bunch of 6'6" ballhandling slashers. He has played many different line ups with young players and let them play through their mistakes.

Those days are over.

Strating Tuesday night produce or sit. The season is about to begin.

MChambers
11-30-2009, 11:13 AM
I don't see UNC as even a very good team this year, much less a great one. This will be the first time at Carolina that Roy Williams will have to make due with a less than all-ACC PG. I think you'll see a big difference at both ends.

Bobby Frazor manned the point for a year after Felton left and before Lawson arrived. UNC was good that year, despite being quite young.

But I agree that Drew is more like Frasor than Felton or Lawson, and it does affect UNC's offense.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-30-2009, 11:26 AM
Bobby Frazor manned the point for a year after Felton left and before Lawson arrived. UNC was good that year, despite being quite young.

But I agree that Drew is more like Frasor than Felton or Lawson, and it does affect UNC's offense.

Drew is playing just fine, gaining confidence, and getting better running the team. Anybody who says he's not an ACC quality starting point guard has not been paying attention,imo.

ncexnyc
11-30-2009, 11:28 AM
Drew is playing just fine, gaining confidence, and getting better running the team. Anybody who says he's not an ACC quality starting point guard has not been paying attention,imo.
I think you're forgetting which board you're on.;)

airowe
11-30-2009, 11:39 AM
Drew is playing just fine, gaining confidence, and getting better running the team. Anybody who says he's not an ACC quality starting point guard has not been paying attention,imo.

He sure is leading the ACC in APG:

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2009-2010/confldrs.html#conf.wki


ASSISTS Cl GP No. Avg/G
1. Larry Drew II-NC SO 7 47 6.7
2. Javier Gonzalez-ST JR 5 33 6.6
3. Biko Paris-BC JR 6 35 5.8
4. Ishmael Smith-WF SR 5 27 5.4
5. Jon Scheyer-DU SR 6 32 5.3
Greivis Vasquez-MD SR 6 32 5.3
Reggie Jackson-BC SO 6 32 5.3
8. Durand Scott-UM FR 7 33 4.7
9. Iman Shumpert-GT SO 5 21 4.2
10. Marcus Ginyard-NC SR 7 29 4.1

And, it's helping to mask his TO/PG


ASSIST/TURNOVER RATIO Cl GP Assists Avg T-Overs Avg Ratio
1. Jon Scheyer-DU SR 6 32 5.3 4 0.7 8.0
2. Ish Smith-WF SR 5 27 5.4 9 1.8 3.0
3. Sean Mosley-MD SO 6 23 3.8 8 1.3 2.9
4. Biko Paris-BC JR 6 35 5.8 15 2.5 2.3
5. LD II-NC SO 7 47 6.7 21 3.0 2.2
6. Andre Young-CU SO 7 23 3.3 12 1.7 1.9
7. Durand Scott-UM FR 7 33 4.7 19 2.7 1.7
Javi Gonzalez-ST JR 5 33 6.6 19 3.8 1.7
9. D. Stitt-CU JR 7 28 4.0 17 2.4 1.6
10. M. Delaney-VT JR 5 18 3.6 11 2.2 1.6
Kyle Singler-DU JR 6 18 3.0 11 1.8 1.6

MChambers
11-30-2009, 12:07 PM
Drew is playing just fine, gaining confidence, and getting better running the team. Anybody who says he's not an ACC quality starting point guard has not been paying attention,imo.

I don't think I said he wasn't an ACC quality point guard. I just said that he was more like Frasor than Felton or Lawson. Were you thinking of someone else?

Duvall
11-30-2009, 12:17 PM
Bobby Frazor manned the point for a year after Felton left and before Lawson arrived. UNC was good that year, despite being quite young.

But I agree that Drew is more like Frasor than Felton or Lawson, and it does affect UNC's offense.

True. But there's no Hansbrough on this team, and no Green either.

Look at it this way - Carolina played about as well as they could hope - limited number of turnovers, controlled the glass, held Nevada to a low percentage from 3. And they won by 7 at home against a 2-3 team that has already notched worse losses to UNLV and VCU.

G man
11-30-2009, 12:39 PM
I would agree that moral losses do exist. I can think of a few tourney games that felt that way. Any time after a win you feel like crap, or feel like we did not play well against an inferior opponent then it is a moral loss. On the flip side of that every game is a learning experience whether a win or a loss it’s what you do with those results that define a team.

DukieTiger
11-30-2009, 12:39 PM
I don't understand one thing:

How was Nevada a "development game" for the Heels? If Duke had struggled against an inferior opponent while playing its starters/veterans the amount of minutes that Unc did- all we would hear about is how Coach K is once again refusing to develop his bench and that it will come back to bite him come tourney time. Something along those lines.

Unc's veterans played the following minutes: 21, 33, 30, 36, 32, 15, 5

The freshmen/bench played the following: 9, 8, 9, 2, 0

?

Kedsy
11-30-2009, 12:45 PM
He sure is leading the ACC in APG:

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2009-2010/confldrs.html#conf.wki


ASSISTS Cl GP No. Avg/G
1. Larry Drew II-NC SO 7 47 6.7


And, it's helping to mask his TO/PG


ASSIST/TURNOVER RATIO Cl GP Assists Avg T-Overs Avg Ratio
5. LD II-NC SO 7 47 6.7 21 3.0 2.2


Let's be fair. A 2.2 assist/turnover ratio is pretty darn good. Bobby Hurley only topped that number once in his four years, and it was his senior year and it was only 2.4. Not saying LDII is Bobby Hurley, but so far his assist numbers are a lot more impressive than I expected.

You're just spoiled because our guy has a ratio of 8.

brevity
11-30-2009, 12:48 PM
My question is, could the win Carolina managed to eek out against Nevada be considered a moral loss?

Can't shoot free throws, can't dribble penetrate, lost against the zone...

Yes, there is such a thing as a moral loss, but it does not exist until the winner of that game plays similarly in a future game and loses. So if Carolina plays this way against, say, Boston College and loses, people will ask, "Hey, remember that Nevada game?"

I'll switch the hypothetical over to Duke for reasons that should become instantly clear. Duke's win over LSU was roundly criticized, but should Duke go undefeated, or even lose a game where they played great, no one is going to bring up LSU.

Kedsy
11-30-2009, 12:49 PM
I'll switch the hypothetical over to Duke for reasons that should become instantly clear. Duke's win over LSU was roundly criticized, but should Duke go undefeated, or even lose a game where they played great, no one is going to bring up LSU.

Well, that might be because we didn't play LSU...

Wheat/"/"/"
11-30-2009, 12:51 PM
I don't think I said he wasn't an ACC quality point guard. I just said that he was more like Frasor than Felton or Lawson. Were you thinking of someone else?

Yea, that was just a general observation, not directed to anyone in particular.

This UNC team has not played all that well to date to be sure, but they have done some good things. They will get much better than we've seen as they settle into their rotations now.

The key player to me to see just how far this team can go is Graves. If he can start to score from 12 to 15 a game, this team becomes very dangerous. He is capable of that, we'll see if he can get it done.

oldnavy
11-30-2009, 12:51 PM
True. But there's no Hansbrough on this team, and no Green either.

Look at it this way - Carolina played about as well as they could hope - limited number of turnovers, controlled the glass, held Nevada to a low percentage from 3. And they won by 7 at home against a 2-3 team that has already notched worse losses to UNLV and VCU.

That is my point. The heels are not very good this year so far. They are OK, but not very good. Taking away anything positive from the Nevada game takes a true optimist IMO. I am not sure that Nevada will win the WAC, and they came into the DD and pushed the holes to the wire. To say that Roy is doing anything different this year as oppossed to previous years is misleading at best. He always plays a deep bench, and in the past years the results have been much better than what he is getting this year. This is a double didgit loss season for the holes...

DrewII is an average ACC PG. He isn't bad, but he is not a game changer either.

brevity
11-30-2009, 12:52 PM
Well, that might be because we didn't play LSU...

Silly me. I meant ASU.

airowe
11-30-2009, 01:02 PM
Let's be fair. A 2.2 assist/turnover ratio is pretty darn good. Bobby Hurley only topped that number once in his four years, and it was his senior year and it was only 2.4. Not saying LDII is Bobby Hurley, but so far his assist numbers are a lot more impressive than I expected.

You're just spoiled because our guy has a ratio of 8.

I absolutely agree. Didn't knock the Ast/TO ratio. I was commenting on his TO/PG which are among the highest in the ACC. Javi Gonzalez is the only PG with a higher number...

Wheat/"/"/"
11-30-2009, 01:08 PM
Let's be fair. A 2.2 assist/turnover ratio is pretty darn good. Bobby Hurley only topped that number once in his four years, and it was his senior year and it was only 2.4. Not saying LDII is Bobby Hurley, but so far his assist numbers are a lot more impressive than I expected.

You're just spoiled because our guy has a ratio of 8.

Scheyer's court vision is a step ahead of everyone else's in the ACC, and it shows.

Drew is a good point guard and he has confidence. He also has that nice change of speed, a good handle and sees the floor well. His shot is coming along, and he hasn't forced it. He needs to get a little more aggressive attacking the rim, which I thnk we will see as we go along. I have seen him finish some nice plays at the rim, just not a lot of times. He's been focusing on getting others involved, and making better decisions. He will loosen up his game later this season and attack more. He's a lot quicker than people like to give him credit for.

Nevada stuck around when the bench players were in the game, for the most part. I personally never felt the game was in doubt, even when Nevada took the lead. UNC struggled finishing some shots they should have made, and at the line, (again). Otherwise, this would have been 20 pt game.

Kedsy
11-30-2009, 01:09 PM
I absolutely agree. Didn't knock the Ast/TO ratio. I was commenting on his TO/PG which are among the highest in the ACC. Javi Gonzalez is the only PG with a higher number...

OK. Except TOs per game can be a misleading number. That's why they invented the Ast/TO metric.

The best TO per game in Bobby Hurley's Duke career was significantly worse than the LDII's current average of 3.0.

The Gordog
11-30-2009, 01:11 PM
Yea, that was just a general observation, not directed to anyone in particular.

This UNC team has not played all that well to date to be sure, but they have done some good things. They will get much better than we've seen as they settle into their rotations now.

The key player to me to see just how far this team can go is Graves. If he can start to score from 12 to 15 a game, this team becomes very dangerous. He is capable of that, we'll see if he can get it done.

Drew has performed better than I expected so far, I'll grant that, but the rest of the team has been underwhelming. I think they are top 20, but not top 10, and Duke will have the ACC regular season clinched before our second meeting on 03/06/10. No one in conference scares me this year.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-30-2009, 01:32 PM
Drew has performed better than I expected so far, I'll grant that, but the rest of the team has been underwhelming. I think they are top 20, but not top 10, and Duke will have the ACC regular season clinched before our second meeting on 03/06/10. No one in conference scares me this year.

You might want to watch Deon Thompson and Ed Davis a little closer the next game if you think they are underwhelming players...They are two of the best big men in the country.

Everybody in the conference scares me, every year...and you guys say us Heel fans lack humility...:)

oldnavy
11-30-2009, 01:57 PM
You might want to watch Deon Thompson and Ed Davis a little closer the next game if you think they are underwhelming players...They are two of the best big men in the country.


What are you basing that claim on? I am not even sure that they are the best in the ACC... (LawaL, Al Faroug Aminu, Booker, Favors, Alabi)

Thompson is a decent scorer when in the low post. He has a reliable turnaround jumper. Davis is a good to very good rebounder and shot blocker, but has not done a lot on the offensive side of the court...

Why would you say they are two of the best in the country? I looked at the stats, and Davis is number 11 in defense (doesn't show up at all in the offensive category) and Thompson is like number 28 or something close, (again, not in the offensive category at all).

Wheat/"/"/"
11-30-2009, 02:12 PM
What are you basing that claim on? I am not even sure that they are the best in the ACC... (LawaL, Al Faroug Aminu, Booker, Favors, Alabi)

Thompson is a decent scorer when in the low post. He has a reliable turnaround jumper. Davis is a good to very good rebounder and shot blocker, but has not done a lot on the offensive side of the court...

Why would you say they are two of the best in the country? I looked at the stats, and Davis is number 11 in defense (doesn't show up at all in the offensive category) and Thompson is like number 28 or something close, (again, not in the offensive category at all).

I base it all on observation and opinion, formed after about 40 years of seriously following college basketball.

But hey, after all it is only an opinion. Feel free to disagree, it's what makes the board go 'round :)

oldnavy
11-30-2009, 02:22 PM
I base it all on observation and opinion, formed after about 40 years of seriously following college basketball.

But hey, after all it is only an opinion. Feel free to disagree, it's what makes the board go 'round :)

Fair enough! But when you say best in the country I think AA status and I just don't see either one of them making an AA team... yet. May change over the course of the season.

CDu
11-30-2009, 02:41 PM
Fair enough! But when you say best in the country I think AA status and I just don't see either one of them making an AA team... yet. May change over the course of the season.

I tend to agree with Wheat that Davis and Thompson are among the best in the country up front. Certainly as a combo they are among the best combos (if not the best). Davis is an elite rebounder and shotblocker, and Thompson is an elite scorer. Both have deficiencies (Davis shouldn't touch the ball more than 5 feet from the basket, Thompson isn't great defensively, and both commit too many turnovers), but they're certainly up there.

The major question for UNC will be the backcourt and wing play. Can they create offense without committing 20+ turnovers? Can they hit perimeter shots when teams overplay the post? They have potential solutions, but we've yet to see them consistently. When they face good teams on a consistent basis, they'll have to play better.

The other question will be how well they'll play against physical teams inside. All of their bigs are more finesse, "play over the top of you" style players. None really want to bang with you. That is less of an issue than the guard/wing play, but could be an issue as the season progresses (especially if the guard play doesn't improve).

ForkFondler
11-30-2009, 03:06 PM
This thread just doesn't make any sense. All Heel results are moral losses. Whenever they win, they deserved to lose. Whenever they lose, they deserved to lose by more.

9F

sandinmyshoes
11-30-2009, 04:34 PM
It seems to me that the young players on this UNC team are thinking the game too much at this point. That "what should I do in this situation" mental consideration is the split second too long that you leave open a shooter or make your switch on defense, or take a shot in the flow of the game.

I do not believe Nevada is going to be as good as UNC made them look last night. However, they do look like a very good offensive team, and a mediocre defensive team. They did a good job of being physical in the paint with the UNC front court players, but were otherwise unimpressive to me on the defensive end.

UNC fans probably hope that their team of the last seven minutes or so of the game is the one they'll see more of as the season goes along. They seemed to play on basketball instinct rather than as is performing a series of practice drills. Drew hit two big threes with a lot of confidence.

It remains to be seen if they can continue to build on that. Three of their next four games could bruise that fragile underclassmen psyche.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-30-2009, 04:37 PM
Thompson isn't great defensively, and both commit too many turnovers).....


I think Thompson is an underrated defender, myself. He gets out and moves his feet well for a big guy and rarely leaves his feet. He usually boxes out well too.

Davis and Thompson are averaging around a couple of TO's a game, which I don't think is that bad as much as UNC is getting it inside and teams are collasping on them.

As for the their toughness under the hoop, I think they are all pretty darn tough. The Wear twins too. Davis and Zeller are still physically underdeveloped and get pushed around some, but they are scrappy. Deon and Zeller could probably stand to get more aggressive at times, but it's not like they shy away from contact.

jv001
11-30-2009, 04:41 PM
[QUOTE=sandinmyshoes;336993]It seems to me that the young players on this UNC team are thinking the game too much at this point. That "what should I do in this situation" mental consideration is the split second too long that you leave open a shooter or make your switch on defense, or take a shot in the flow of the game.


Miles was doing the same thing last year. He looked to be thinking too much. Just not reacting and playing on instinct. This year he looks far more comfortable and the results are telling. But this is not an uncommon thing for freshmen. Especially for the caliber of play in the ACC. Go Duke!

weezie
11-30-2009, 04:47 PM
UK has alot of talent though for sure. I think UNC loses both of these games, the UK game could be a blowout.


I think the holes win the MSU game and "right the ship" before KY hands them their heads. Wall is no joke, he will lace into the hole guards and draw fouls from the big boys.