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View Full Version : Where was the band at the football game?



6th Man
11-28-2009, 07:35 PM
I understand that it is Thanksgiving break, but come on...no marching band today? First of all, thank you pep band(at least I think it was the pep band playing) for giving us some help at Wallace Wade today. But how in the world on Senior Day, a chance at 6-6 after all the dismal seasons, can we not provide the marching band for the football game? I realize the kids have lives and it was Thanksgiving weekend. But when you are an athlete, cheerleader, band member, do you not give a commitment to doing these things?

I can't tell you how weird it was that NOTHING went on at halftime. I also arrived early to the Devils Walk. I was at the Chapel when the team rolled in and heard a very prominent member of the football team say as he walked by..."Man we don't even get a band today". Come on Duke!!! These seniors have busted their tails and this is how we send them off??? Is this how Thad Lewis deserves to be sent off???

I realize this is a basketball board and I am a basketball fan. But as a season ticket holder that also loves Duke football, I was pretty amazed at the lack of commitment the University showed the football team today. Very disappointing. The Seniors, team, Coach Cut deserve much better than that for the last game of the year.

Duvall
11-28-2009, 07:41 PM
You have two options. You can either open up your checkbook and give money to the athletic department to fund a scholarship marching band that would attend all games, or you can accept and be grateful for the volunteer support that the current band provides. Anything else is a waste of our time.

6th Man
11-28-2009, 07:48 PM
This isn't about being grateful. I am grateful for what they do. I didn't say they sucked. I said Duke University should have a marching band present at all football games if they are serious about football.

And for the record Duvall I do open up my checkbook and give money to the Iron Dukes. I don't give enough to provide scholarships to an entire marching band, but I try to do my part.

Acymetric
11-28-2009, 07:48 PM
You have two options. You can either open up your checkbook and give money to the athletic department to fund a scholarship marching band that would attend all games, or you can accept and be grateful for the volunteer support that the current band provides. Anything else is a waste of our time.

Exactly. And its not like these kids can just run back to Durham for the game. Being there today probably means not going home for thanksgiving. At Ohio State probably worth it. At Duke, can you really ask volunteers to stay?

6th Man
11-28-2009, 07:57 PM
Exactly. And its not like these kids can just run back to Durham for the game. Being there today probably means not going home for thanksgiving. At Ohio State probably worth it. At Duke, can you really ask volunteers to stay?

You guys win.....I don't know why I bother posting. I care deeply about football succeeding. I appreciate what the band does. I appreciate what the pep band did today. But if Duke wants to get real with football, not having a marching band on Senior Day isn't getting it done.

YourLandlord
11-28-2009, 08:00 PM
You guys win.....I don't know why I bother posting. I care deeply about football succeeding. I appreciate what the band does. I appreciate what the pep band did today. But if Duke wants to get real with football, not having a marching band on Senior Day isn't getting it done.

Meanwhile, the students that make up the marching band are "getting real" about the upcoming final week of classes and then exams immediately following. You know, things that matter in the "real" world of their lives post-college.

6th Man
11-28-2009, 08:29 PM
Meanwhile, the students that make up the marching band are "getting real" about the upcoming final week of classes and then exams immediately following. You know, things that matter in the "real" world of their lives post-college.

And so our football seniors and their parents get sent off with a special halftime show of nothing. We had a kid that broke over 40 some passing records at Duke University. Do you think the equivalent of that in basketball gets the same send off? I understand the importance of preparing for the "real" world. These seniors are about to face the real world. I'm just saying...they deserved better.

buddy
11-28-2009, 08:40 PM
Personally, I think it is ridiculous for Duke to play a home football game on the Saturday after Thanksgiving. Duke is not State U, its students do not all live within a two hour drive, and it is not reasonable to expect them to give up their holiday. For the record, Wake Forest did not have their band at the game either. Same problem--students come from all over the world. It just shows the power of money. Someone has to play at home on this weekend. But with a little intelligence, all the games would be on State U campuses. Scheduling this game at Duke on this weekend is not fair to the players or the students. But conference officialdom demonstrated its intelligence when it expanded, and destroyed the round robin basketball schedule. But that is for another day.

A-Tex Devil
11-28-2009, 08:43 PM
Meanwhile, the students that make up the marching band are "getting real" about the upcoming final week of classes and then exams immediately following. You know, things that matter in the "real" world of their lives post-college.

So is the football team but others here have made the right point.

Anyway, Thanksgiving weekend games are a new thing for Duke football. We used to always be done the Saturday before.

The problem is -- we can't "force" the band to stay because, as mentioned, it's a volunteer band. It's not Florida State or even North Carolina where there are literally people waiting to be able to march if others in front of them aren't good enough or don't show up. And if you don't show up, you could lose a schollie.

The incentive system isn't there (and I don't know that it should be given our budget constraints -- that's another discussion, though). If we force people to come to T-Giving weekend games in order to be part of the band, we won't have much of a band at all for basketball season.

77devil
11-28-2009, 08:59 PM
No student band or cheerleaders at the Tip Off NIT either, which is normal, but the alumni pep band made a good showing as usual.

Acymetric
11-28-2009, 09:00 PM
Personally, I think it is ridiculous for Duke to play a home football game on the Saturday after Thanksgiving. Duke is not State U, its students do not all live within a two hour drive, and it is not reasonable to expect them to give up their holiday. For the record, Wake Forest did not have their band at the game either. Same problem--students come from all over the world. It just shows the power of money. Someone has to play at home on this weekend. But with a little intelligence, all the games would be on State U campuses. Scheduling this game at Duke on this weekend is not fair to the players or the students. But conference officialdom demonstrated its intelligence when it expanded, and destroyed the round robin basketball schedule. But that is for another day.

The only thing I wouldn't like about this is that we would play a road game for our final game every year. I would much rather build up enough of a base that we can get a decent crowd at Thanksgiving (this crowd wasn't bad, especially considering we've had a disappointing end to the season and there was nothing on the line but pride).

That said, another reason is that we don't have a music major (and I'm not really sure what we have in the way of a music department in general). Off the top of my head NC State doesn't have a major, but they do offer a minor at least, plus its a state school so its easier to find people to play.

I know it may rub some people the wrong way to see a ragtag band at the final game, but there really isn't an alternative at Duke. If you can play an instrument (well) I imagine Duke wouldn't turn down your services for the final game. In the future, when the final game has postseason implications perhaps it'll be possible to have the band around, but there's just no reason to expect them to stay for this.

So you have my perspective, I'm in a marching band at a college. Everything I say is firsthand. Donate money specifically for band scholarships with the stipulation that the band be at all football games if you feel strongly about it. Money talks.

uh_no
11-28-2009, 09:01 PM
I understand that it is Thanksgiving break, but come on...no marching band today? First of all, thank you pep band(at least I think it was the pep band playing) for giving us some help at Wallace Wade today. But how in the world on Senior Day, a chance at 6-6 after all the dismal seasons, can we not provide the marching band for the football game? I realize the kids have lives and it was Thanksgiving weekend. But when you are an athlete, cheerleader, band member, do you not give a commitment to doing these things?

I can't tell you how weird it was that NOTHING went on at halftime. I also arrived early to the Devils Walk. I was at the Chapel when the team rolled in and heard a very prominent member of the football team say as he walked by..."Man we don't even get a band today". Come on Duke!!! These seniors have busted their tails and this is how we send them off??? Is this how Thad Lewis deserves to be sent off???

I realize this is a basketball board and I am a basketball fan. But as a season ticket holder that also loves Duke football, I was pretty amazed at the lack of commitment the University showed the football team today. Very disappointing. The Seniors, team, Coach Cut deserve much better than that for the last game of the year.

Should we also criticize the band for not being at the bball game in NY yesterday? It was an alumni band....but doesn't our basketball team deserve better? Perhaps we should shell out the money so jet them around the country over break.

6th Man
11-28-2009, 09:17 PM
Should we also criticize the band for not being at the bball game in NY yesterday? It was an alumni band....but doesn't our basketball team deserve better? Perhaps we should shell out the money so jet them around the country over break.

This was Senior Day for Duke football at home. This wasn't a road game. If I am a recruit at today's game and I see that Duke can't even have a halftime show on Senior Day...you think I am signing? Seriously, it was an empty field with music blaring over the speaker system.

I mean WTH? I'm arguing that Duke football deserves better. These kids have given us a competitive football team.

I do agree that the ACC should not schedule games for private schools like Duke and Wake the Sat. after Thanksgiving. I do agree that there is an issue with forcing volunteer band members to stay. It is a very complex situation. Again, I love the volunteer band members. Just like the players they deserve a Thanksgiving holiday. But the ACC did schedule this game. Why am I for the most part such a villain in this thread for wanting Duke football and their players to be properly sent off?

DukeUsul
11-28-2009, 10:04 PM
First off, Duke most certainly does have a music major (http://music.duke.edu/undergrads/major_requirements.php) and music depeartment. At some universities the marching band is part of the music department and there is some overlap/syngergy betwen the various ensembles. At Duke, the marching band is part of the athletic department (barely). In my time in the band I knew a small handful of music majors who played in the band. The overwhelming majority did not major or minor in music.

I do agree with many of the sentiments from the original poster and others - I do want to see Duke get serious about funding the band. However, I realistically see that it will happen after everything else had been funded and we have more and more butts in the seats. Until that happens, it will be impossible to get the kids to stay in Durham over Thanksgiving.

Acymetric
11-28-2009, 10:20 PM
First off, Duke most certainly does have a music major (http://music.duke.edu/undergrads/major_requirements.php) and music depeartment. At some universities the marching band is part of the music department and there is some overlap/syngergy betwen the various ensembles. At Duke, the marching band is part of the athletic department (barely). In my time in the band I knew a small handful of music majors who played in the band. The overwhelming majority did not major or minor in music.

I do agree with many of the sentiments from the original poster and others - I do want to see Duke get serious about funding the band. However, I realistically see that it will happen after everything else had been funded and we have more and more butts in the seats. Until that happens, it will be impossible to get the kids to stay in Durham over Thanksgiving.

Wow. Allow me to eat my words, I swear I remember looking this up (sometime back), but I was definitely 100% wrong, thanks for calling me out there. You're dead on about funding though. It would also help if there was a reason for the kids to WANT to stay, going back to the last game being more meaningful than it is now.

DU82
11-28-2009, 11:10 PM
First off, Duke most certainly does have a music major (http://music.duke.edu/undergrads/major_requirements.php) and music depeartment. At some universities the marching band is part of the music department and there is some overlap/syngergy betwen the various ensembles. At Duke, the marching band is part of the athletic department (barely). In my time in the band I knew a small handful of music majors who played in the band. The overwhelming majority did not major or minor in music.

I do agree with many of the sentiments from the original poster and others - I do want to see Duke get serious about funding the band. However, I realistically see that it will happen after everything else had been funded and we have more and more butts in the seats. Until that happens, it will be impossible to get the kids to stay in Durham over Thanksgiving.

This is no different than thirty years ago, when the marching band was under the music department, and members received a 1/4 course credit for being in the band. My first year, the Carolina game was played on the Saturday after Thanksgiving, and most members (I'm now ashamed that this included me) did not return to campus in time for the football game.

Any game on the Friday or Saturday after Thanksgiving was optional.

Richard Berg
11-29-2009, 12:46 AM
Color me confused as well. I have no idea what 6th Man is asking us to do.


I understand that it is Thanksgiving break, but come on...no marching band today?
Unless ESPN360 was fashioning a spectacular illusion onto my TV, they were there. They just didn't play a halftime show. (Have you ever seen a group of ~25 amateurs try to pull off a convincing marching routine? It's not pretty, even by DUMB standards.)

Sure, it would be nice to have a larger band, but that's hardly something that can be addressed mid-season. Subtract the kids who traveled to NYC, plus the many more who spent the holidays with their family, and you're actually looking at a surprisingly good turnout this afternoon. If the band had 300+ core members to draw from then there might be grounds to call today's effort a failure, but I for one was encouraged.

For the record, there were zero cheerleaders at the MSG games...


But when you are an athlete, cheerleader, band member, do you not give a commitment to doing these things?
Athlete, no. Unless you mean varsity football athlete. Unsurprisingly, it's pretty easy to motivate a kid when you dangle $200k in front of him.

Band or cheerleader, not really. They are entirely volunteer based, though there are incentives to attend less popular sports (football, hockey, volleyball, women's basketball). Along with seniority, frequent participation is how you earn credit toward events where spots are limited (eg men vs Carolina, tourney travel).


This is no different than thirty years ago, when the marching band was under the music department, and members received a 1/4 course credit for being in the band.
You still get a 1/4 credit for playing in the band -- but only for the fall semester. Spring doesn't count since there aren't rehearsals 2x a week that need to be scheduled against your classes/labs.

DukeUsul
11-29-2009, 09:58 AM
Ricahrd, the band that we saw at the football game was an alumni band. So there were certainly some students, but there were also lots of alums and friends of DUMB playing. Both cheerleading squads were at the football game, although the JV squad looked a bit small, so I'm thinking some of them may have been with family for the holiday. Or maybe they're just smaller than I remember.

RelativeWays
11-29-2009, 10:59 AM
I think attacking 6th Man because he wanted to see better support on senior day from the band is a little mean and unnecessary. This is part of cultivating a football culture at Duke and its baby steps.
In any event, the holiday weekend had most to do with it, WF didn't even bring their band at all. I thought the pep band did a pretty good job and I don't really care for the half time show at the Wade anyway.
Before you kids dismiss having games on thanksgiving weekend, the game had a really good turnout despite the holiday weekend and really the only two drastically empty sections were the student section and the visitor section (the emptiest I've ever seen it). If Duke continues its improvement, I think more people will make a point to show up for games, especially if Duke is playing for something. I just wish we had won. I hate WF football:(

sagegrouse
11-29-2009, 12:05 PM
I think attacking 6th Man because he wanted to see better support on senior day from the band is a little mean and unnecessary. This is part of cultivating a football culture at Duke and its baby steps.


I have two problems with this thread:

(a) It is confusing cause and effect: if Duke had a championship caliber football team, the stadium would be packed; the students would be totally enthralled with the team; and the band would be there. As it is, things are much improved on both the field and in the stands. Wait until next year!

(b) I don't want to be part of a group of alumni telling the students how to behave as Duke sports fans. These arguments, which occur a number of times every year, are really tedious. Moreover, as a guy who knew Heyman and Mullins and whose daughter was Cherokee's classmate, I am far too removed from campus stuff to have an opinion worth listening to.

Have a great weekend, gang!

sagegrouse

devildeac
11-29-2009, 01:27 PM
Ricahrd, the band that we saw at the football game was an alumni band. So there were certainly some students, but there were also lots of alums and friends of DUMB playing. Both cheerleading squads were at the football game, although the JV squad looked a bit small, so I'm thinking some of them may have been with family for the holiday. Or maybe they're just smaller than I remember.

The "JV" squad is affectionately/internally known as the White squad. This team only has 8 members this year. Both squads are usually 12 members with an alternate for each team. This year, the Blue squad is 12 ladies with an "alternate", or non-traveling member.

Greg_Newton
11-29-2009, 02:03 PM
Exactly. And its not like these kids can just run back to Durham for the game. Being there today probably means not going home for thanksgiving. At Ohio State probably worth it. At Duke, can you really ask volunteers to stay?

Ugh. Reading that made me sick to my stomach.

Btw, amplifying the mini-band through loudspeakers was the most annoying thing ever. Excruciatingly loud and trebley for anyone near them. I might donate money to the band with the stipulation that they never do that again.

Acymetric
11-29-2009, 02:09 PM
Ugh. Reading that made me sick to my stomach.

Btw, amplifying the mini-band through loudspeakers was the most annoying thing ever. Excruciatingly loud and trebley for anyone near them. I might donate money to the band with the stipulation that they never do that again.

They do this because the band isn't loud enough for anyone except those right next to the band to hear. It sounded worse today because there were less people playing, and so certain players stuck out because they were closer to the mic. They've been doing it since last season, until the band gets more brass players its either that or they may as well not play.

DukeUsul
11-29-2009, 03:01 PM
I think attacking 6th Man because he wanted to see better support on senior day from the band is a little mean and unnecessary. This is part of cultivating a football culture at Duke and its baby steps.
In any event, the holiday weekend had most to do with it, WF didn't even bring their band at all. I thought the pep band did a pretty good job and I don't really care for the half time show at the Wade anyway.
Before you kids dismiss having games on thanksgiving weekend, the game had a really good turnout despite the holiday weekend and really the only two drastically empty sections were the student section and the visitor section (the emptiest I've ever seen it). If Duke continues its improvement, I think more people will make a point to show up for games, especially if Duke is playing for something. I just wish we had won. I hate WF football:(

I think one of the reasons people jumped on the OP is that they perceived he was dissing on the students in the band. Which, if he were, I'd have jumped on him too. I don't, however, think that's what he was trying to do. I think in the following discussion we've all established, and I think the OP agreed, that it's hard to expect students to give up their holiday with the family like many of the top BCS football schools as long as the athletic dept. provides such little support to the students.

DukeUsul
11-29-2009, 03:03 PM
Ugh. Reading that made me sick to my stomach.

Btw, amplifying the mini-band through loudspeakers was the most annoying thing ever. Excruciatingly loud and trebley for anyone near them. I might donate money to the band with the stipulation that they never do that again.

An alternate opinion: for those of us across the stadium, the amplification was the only way we'd even be able to hear them.

sagegrouse
11-29-2009, 03:13 PM
Exactly. And its not like these kids can just run back to Durham for the game. Being there today probably means not going home for thanksgiving. At Ohio State probably worth it. At Duke, can you really ask volunteers to stay?

Nearly 90% of OSU 49,000 undergraduates are in-state students who live within 150 miles of the campus. (Cleveland to Columbus, 142 miles; Cincinnati to Columbus, 105 miles; Toledo to Columbus, 138 miles; Akron to Columbus, 126 miles.)

No problem with kids going home for Thanksgiving, coming back for the game on Saturday, and then going home again for Saturday night and Sunday.

At the same time, I have always heard that Duke had one of the most geographically diverse student bodies in the country, comparable with Notre Dame and trailing only the service academies.

sagegrouse
'I said I wouldn't post on this thread any more. Now I mean it.'

OZZIE4DUKE
11-29-2009, 03:44 PM
Ugh. Reading that made me sick to my stomach.

Btw, amplifying the mini-band through loudspeakers was the most annoying thing ever. Excruciatingly loud and trebley for anyone near them. I might donate money to the band with the stipulation that they never do that again.


They do this because the band isn't loud enough for anyone except those right next to the band to hear. It sounded worse today because there were less people playing, and so certain players stuck out because they were closer to the mic. They've been doing it since last season, until the band gets more brass players its either that or they may as well not play.


An alternate opinion: for those of us across the stadium, the amplification was the only way we'd even be able to hear them.
I think the alumni (and some undergrads, I assume that Pumpkinfunk was there) band sounded great, and the amplification was a great idea, and sounded great through the speakers. As one who is on the alumni band mailing list (I have been known to play first kazoo for some of the women's bball holiday games in the past:cool:), it was made clear in the email plea for band members for this game that there would be no marching involved, as there was no time for practice, and the marching probably would have caused a heart attack or two to the band members;)).

The cheerleaders do not travel with the basketball team this year, with the exception of the Gonzaga (MSG) game in December and the ACC and NCAA tournaments this season. I imagine it is a NCAA cost conservation mandate, what with the economy and all. They don't even get to drive to Raleigh or chapel hill, but then, we don't have to put up with the opposing cheerleaders in Cameron either :)

Let me say for the record that noon games suck for tailgating. My Brunchgate setup crew was there well before 8 a.m. (as is the norm) and I was there at 9:15, but the crowd in Blue Devil Alley for the Devil Walk at 9:45 was by far the smallest of the year. Those of us who were there had a great time and showed our usual exceptional enthusiasm for the team as they walked by.

SCMatt33
11-29-2009, 03:49 PM
This is all small potatoes compared to what happens if we make a bowl game in the next couple of years. Going 6-6 would likely put us in Charlotte which is played on the day after Christmas. Just a thought.

blazindw
11-29-2009, 04:02 PM
The cheerleaders do not travel with the basketball team this year, with the exception of the Gonzaga (MSG) game in December and the ACC and NCAA tournaments this season. I imagine it is a NCAA cost conservation mandate, what with the economy and all. They don't even get to drive to Raleigh or chapel hill, but then, we don't have to put up with the opposing cheerleaders in Cameron either :)

This has been the case for several years. With the exception of tournament games and the game in MSG (which is classified as a home game), cheerleaders do not travel.

Greg_Newton
11-29-2009, 04:04 PM
Maybe I worded that too negatively... the band itself sounded fine, but there has got to be a better way to spread the sound around than blaring it right in the faces of everyone in the front rows at excruciating levels. Maybe put the speakers at the top of the horseshoe facing the field or something? Sitting near them was like standing in front of the speaker at a loud rock concert... it wasn't a coincidence that the section near the speakers was almost empty.

I didn't realize they'd been doing that all season (first game I've been in town for)... interesting development.

DukeUsul
11-29-2009, 04:16 PM
Maybe I worded that too negatively... the band itself sounded fine, but there has got to be a better way to spread the sound around than blaring it right in the faces of everyone in the front rows at excruciating levels. Maybe put the speakers at the top of the horseshoe facing the field or something? Sitting near them was like standing in front of the speaker at a loud rock concert... it wasn't a coincidence that the section near the speakers was almost empty.

I didn't realize they'd been doing that all season (first game I've been in town for)... interesting development.

It did, however, seem like they turned the volume up on it yesterday.

DukieInKansas
11-29-2009, 05:15 PM
It would be great if the band members would all come back for this game, but not very realistic. Perhaps a local high school band could be invited march at half time. A football game doesn't seem the same without a marching band at halftime.

RelativeWays
11-29-2009, 06:06 PM
It would be great if the band members would all come back for this game, but not very realistic. Perhaps a local high school band could be invited march at half time. A football game doesn't seem the same without a marching band at halftime.


Thats a great idea and surprised they didn't think of it (or maybe they did and it fell through). Next time they have a home thanksgiving game and the band isn't going to be there, they should invite a couple of area high school bands to perform the halftime show. You ingratiate yourself with the community, you give these kids a bigger stage to play on and you get more people into the game. Sounds like a win-win to me.

6th Man
11-29-2009, 06:07 PM
I think one of the reasons people jumped on the OP is that they perceived he was dissing on the students in the band. Which, if he were, I'd have jumped on him too. I don't, however, think that's what he was trying to do. I think in the following discussion we've all established, and I think the OP agreed, that it's hard to expect students to give up their holiday with the family like many of the top BCS football schools as long as the athletic dept. provides such little support to the students.

I was definitely not dissing on the students in the band. I apologize to anyone that I offended if this is how I came across. The band members certainly deserve all of our respect for volunteering their time and effort into making Duke football a more enjoyable experience. I just came away from yesterday puzzled as to how on senior day and a chance to cap a great season we could provide what seemed to be so little for these guys? The fans that were there were great. All of the tailgaters near Cameron are wonderful. I appreciate all of you greatly.

Obviously my opinion doesn't matter. I just feel like they deserve something more than an empty field at halftime. More than 20 people greeting them at the Chapel. (the tailgaters near Cameron did us proud as they walked by)Let's throw the band out of it. What can we do in the future to make the players (especially seniors) feel more appreciated? Maybe some high school bands at least as one poster mentioned. Unfortunately pageantry is part of the college football gameday experience. It just seems like nobody cares when it is senior day and you have nothing. I am so tired of the arguement as well that winning brings all of this. We're never going to get the players we need to come to Duke when it appears that we don't care.

DukieInKansas
11-29-2009, 06:19 PM
Was anythiing done at the beginning of the game to recognize the seniors? I've saw other games over the weekend where seniors and their parents were introduced. Did Duke do the same?

Indoor66
11-29-2009, 06:21 PM
What about having the Seniors recognized with a day (game) that is not on a holiday weekend (with the students away) whether the last game or not?

I agree that the seniors deserve an enthusiastic and well attended day of recognition.

DukeSince'77
11-29-2009, 06:41 PM
6th Man, you are onto something...remember the 4 star recruit we just lost to UCLA? Imagine as a recruit the difference in your experiences during your visits to a Duke game compared to a game at UCLA. (and I know i'm gonna get jumped on - I know there are all kinds of differences but it still goes to 6th man's points) We seem to base everything getting "better" when we win games and go to bowls etc. That will increase interest, fan support (bandwagon will get larger), but the overall experience will be driven by the adminstration and I suppose ISP marketing.

On the lack of a halftime show...shameful. Best suggestion would have been to invite a local high school band to perform.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-29-2009, 07:19 PM
Was anythiing done at the beginning of the game to recognize the seniors? I've saw other games over the weekend where seniors and their parents were introduced. Did Duke do the same?

Each senior was introduced along with the family members in attendance. The ceremony took place on the field where each player was embraced by their coach and greeted by the AD and the university president.

In addition, several of the players including several seniors appeared in videos on the scoreboard at various points of the game. The videos were well done and served to energize at least some of us in the stands. (In fact, I'd like to see videos like that used at every game..... new videos for each game.)

allenmurray
11-29-2009, 07:21 PM
Comparing public schools (Ohio, etc.) to Duke is unfair. Duke students band members left Tuesday or Wednesday to go home. Some travelled 700 or 800 miles or more. Expecting them to return Friday (48 hours later) is a big expectation. Most students at state schools could easily make the return to play in a Saturday game. This is not a matter of supporting the football team or not supporting the football team - it is the difference between large state schools (where most students live within a four or five hour drive) and small private schools (where the student body is from across the country).

DukieInKansas
11-29-2009, 07:30 PM
Each senior was introduced along with the family members in attendance. The ceremony took place on the field where each player was embraced by their coach and greeted by the AD and the university president.

In addition, several of the players including several seniors appeared in videos on the scoreboard at various points of the game. The videos were well done and served to energize at least some of us in the stands. (In fact, I'd like to see videos like that used at every game..... new videos for each game.)

Thank you for the info. I didn't think they would go unrecognized but wanted to verify it. I hope to make it for a game next year.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-29-2009, 07:36 PM
Thank you for the info. I didn't think they would go unrecognized but wanted to verify it. I hope to make it for a game next year.

Great! I'll save you a seat in the stadium and a plate at the tailgate.

DukieInKansas
11-29-2009, 07:42 PM
Great! I'll save you a seat in the stadium and a plate at the tailgate.

The challenge will be deciding what to bring to tailgate that can travel from Kansas.

Indoor66
11-29-2009, 08:16 PM
The challenge will be deciding what to bring to tailgate that can travel from Kansas.

A steer.

DukieInKansas
11-29-2009, 08:17 PM
A steer.

And it can be the transportation also!

Indoor66
11-29-2009, 08:20 PM
And it can be the transportation also!

How efficient. :D

DukeUsul
11-29-2009, 08:46 PM
How efficient. :D

Better leave now.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-29-2009, 08:46 PM
You guys are concerned that the (senior) players didn't get to witness a halftime performance by a band? And you're being serious? Y'all are making me laugh! NO football player, at Duke or any other major college, has ever seen a halftime show at a game they were playing in. They go back to the locker room! They can't see the field. And their time is occupied with bodily functions and getting coached up.

Atldukie79
11-29-2009, 10:13 PM
Regarding the band, I can tell you that DUMB had to advertise to the student body and offer a stipend to attract a tuba player this year as there wasn't a single volunteer.

-jk
11-29-2009, 11:09 PM
Regarding the band, I can tell you that DUMB had to advertise to the student body and offer a stipend to attract a tuba player this year as there wasn't a single volunteer.

Some things never change. 20-some years ago, my little brother played tuba for DUMB as a high school senior. (He was later the DUMB pres, too.)

-jk

Richard Berg
11-29-2009, 11:54 PM
I was definitely not dissing on the students in the band. I apologize to anyone that I offended if this is how I came across. The band members certainly deserve all of our respect for volunteering their time and effort into making Duke football a more enjoyable experience.
No problem.

What can we do in the future to make the players (especially seniors) feel more appreciated?
Unfortunately, I have no idea. Maybe today's athletes actually prefer blaring electronica music and tie-dye t-shirts to the "traditional" gridiron experience. I hope not, but unless we have some FB parents lurking here we'll probably never know.

If I had to guess, though, I doubt DUMB is high on the list. Chances are the players most appreciate things that fans never see: praise from coaches, support from the athletic dept, patience from tutors & professors. Limiting ourselves to the gametime environment, I'd focus on the simple stuff: a stadium that fills up early, cheers raucously, and doesn't storm the exits if we get behind by 10 points in the 3rd quarter.

High school bands are a decent idea. Might be a harder sell than it sounds, though. Area schools already march at Wallace Wade at least one Saturday a year: either during fall break, if there's a home game that weekend, or at a designated "Durham Band Day" where the halftime show is a collaboration between DUMB and several bands from the community. Maybe they'd be willing to come out for Thanksgiving as well; no idea. Just know that high school kids do not have infinite free time either. Plus...no way to sugar coat this...the HS bands we've been able to attract in the past are terrible. I mean, DUMB isn't exactly in the running for a Grammy, but the alternatives...wow. If Duke were in Texas this would be a much easier decision!


Some things never change. 20-some years ago, my little brother played tuba for DUMB as a high school senior. (He was later the DUMB pres, too.)

-jk
And I played tuba the year after I graduated. Apparently those things haven't gotten any lighter to carry over the years! :)

J.Blink
11-30-2009, 01:50 AM
When I was in dumb for 1 year about a decade ago, my general perception was (and this is for the football portion of the year only!):

1-the musical skill level was far below that of my high school band
2-the marching skill level was very far below that of my high school band
3-most members were primarily there (football) because it was required to play for basketball

1+2 are perhaps not surprising. I came from a (durham) high school that had a very good band program. At Duke not a lot of people are willing to put the amount of time into marching band practice to even compete with high schools. Ditto big public universities--we're not at all like Carolina where the marching band is a big deal, has 100s of people, and spends a lot of time practicing. That's never going to happen. I don't even think it SHOULD happen.

3-again, not surprising. Think of how much the board bemoans the level of basketball knowledge amongst Duke students today? Well, it's even more so for football (myself included). I don't think that's going to change. The band shows up, does a good job, and supports the team(s). That's enough.

For me personally, I decided the amount of time that needed to be expended for for DUMB and wind symphony and classes (etc) was not worth it. I think a lot of people make this decision. Additionally, there wasn't a huge overlap between wind symphony and DUMB.

Solution? Well, my humble opinion is this--DUMB is a small (and getting smaller?) college band. Members of the band have hugely varying levels of skill--from never having marched before to having performed in DCI corps. DUMB largely tries to be a traditional marching band, and it comes out...ok. DUMB is never going to be remotely close to Carolina's marching band, not to mention Central's Sound Machine, etc. Perhaps the nature of DUMB should be reevaluated?

Maybe it's time to consider making DUMB a scatter band (DUMB was in the distant past something like this?)? Changing instrumentation and allowing more room for humor and showmanship beyond somewhat shabby traditional field formations? The Princeton Marching Band is a fairly famous example of a scatter/scramble band, and according to their website, this year they have 107 members. Could potentially lessen time commitments and get new people to take a look at joining the band.

Just some thoughts...

allenmurray
11-30-2009, 07:43 AM
When I was in dumb for 1 year about a decade ago, my general perception was (and this is for the football portion of the year only!):

1-the musical skill level was far below that of my high school band
2-the marching skill level was very far below that of my high school band
3-most members were primarily there (football) because it was required to play for basketball

1+2 are perhaps not surprising. I came from a (durham) high school that had a very good band program. At Duke not a lot of people are willing to put the amount of time into marching band practice to even compete with high schools. Ditto big public universities--we're not at all like Carolina where the marching band is a big deal, has 100s of people, and spends a lot of time practicing. That's never going to happen. I don't even think it SHOULD happen.

3-again, not surprising. Think of how much the board bemoans the level of basketball knowledge amongst Duke students today? Well, it's even more so for football (myself included). I don't think that's going to change. The band shows up, does a good job, and supports the team(s). That's enough.

For me personally, I decided the amount of time that needed to be expended for for DUMB and wind symphony and classes (etc) was not worth it. I think a lot of people make this decision. Additionally, there wasn't a huge overlap between wind symphony and DUMB.

Solution? Well, my humble opinion is this--DUMB is a small (and getting smaller?) college band. Members of the band have hugely varying levels of skill--from never having marched before to having performed in DCI corps. DUMB largely tries to be a traditional marching band, and it comes out...ok. DUMB is never going to be remotely close to Carolina's marching band, not to mention Central's Sound Machine, etc. Perhaps the nature of DUMB should be reevaluated?

Maybe it's time to consider making DUMB a scatter band (DUMB was in the distant past something like this?)? Changing instrumentation and allowing more room for humor and showmanship beyond somewhat shabby traditional field formations? The Princeton Marching Band is a fairly famous example of a scatter/scramble band, and according to their website, this year they have 107 members. Could potentially lessen time commitments and get new people to take a look at joining the band.

Just some thoughts...

I appreciate your post - just what is a scatter/scramble band? (I know, I could look it up, but I'd prefer a response from somenone who is a musician/former band memnber, not a generic wiki look-up). Thanks.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-30-2009, 09:13 AM
Regarding the band, I can tell you that DUMB had to advertise to the student body and offer a stipend to attract a tuba player this year as there wasn't a single volunteer.
One of the "usual" alumni tuba, or actually sousaphone, players, had other family obligations he got roped into and was visiting Chicago instead of Durham for the game. I know because I called him at halftime and asked where he was.

BTW, they don't have to bring their own instruments - DUMB can supply them if needed.

DukeUsul
11-30-2009, 10:08 AM
I appreciate your post - just what is a scatter/scramble band? (I know, I could look it up, but I'd prefer a response from somenone who is a musician/former band memnber, not a generic wiki look-up). Thanks.

Scatter/scramble bands don't march in traditional formations with dressed lines, spacing, etc. They are ..... disorganized, spontaneous, humorous. The shows are meant to be funny, are often irreverent, and appear random. Scatter bands have been known to get in trouble for their irreverence.

UVa also has a well known scatter band.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_band

6th Man
11-30-2009, 10:35 AM
You guys are concerned that the (senior) players didn't get to witness a halftime performance by a band? And you're being serious? Y'all are making me laugh! NO football player, at Duke or any other major college, has ever seen a halftime show at a game they were playing in. They go back to the locker room! They can't see the field. And their time is occupied with bodily functions and getting coached up.

I am being serious. I know that Duke players can't witness a halftime show. As I stated in the original post, I heard an important member of the football team say, "Man, we don't even get a band today". This was on the Devils Walk. They were aware. I mean what is the perception of that? What does that look like to the parents of the seniors that are in the stands at halftime? What does that look like to recruits in attendance? It shows no effort. If the band isn't going to be able to be there due to the holidays then fine. But an empty field at halftime is all we can do for senior day? A quiet lonely walk to the stadium (with the exception of the tailgate row at Cameron) is all we can do?

Everyone is arguing against me. All I am saying is we need to do better. I don't get it. I love Duke University. I want the football team to succeed. Why is this so laughable?

Duvall
11-30-2009, 10:46 AM
UVa also has a well known scatter band.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_band

Had. It was replaced a few years back.

DukieInKansas
11-30-2009, 11:02 AM
Scatter/scramble bands don't march in traditional formations with dressed lines, spacing, etc. They are ..... disorganized, spontaneous, humorous. The shows are meant to be funny, are often irreverent, and appear random. Scatter bands have been known to get in trouble for their irreverence.

UVa also has a well known scatter band.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_band

I don't know if it was UVA or another band but a visiting scatter band was my favorite halftime show. At the end of their performance, they performed their precision drill - it was a Black & Decker. The band formed in the shape of the drill with the trombone section for the bit - every other trombone would lean down as the person next to them turned the slide over them to simulate the spinning bit. The announcer during the performance certainly enhanced the whole thing.

allenmurray
11-30-2009, 11:25 AM
I am being serious. I know that Duke players can't witness a halftime show. As I stated in the original post, I heard an important member of the football team say, "Man, we don't even get a band today". This was on the Devils Walk. They were aware. I mean what is the perception of that? What does that look like to the parents of the seniors that are in the stands at halftime? What does that look like to recruits in attendance? It shows no effort. If the band isn't going to be able to be there due to the holidays then fine. But an empty field at halftime is all we can do for senior day? A quiet lonely walk to the stadium (with the exception of the tailgate row at Cameron) is all we can do?

Everyone is arguing against me. All I am saying is we need to do better. I don't get it. I love Duke University. I want the football team to succeed. Why is this so laughable?

I'm not arguing against you at all. I've only missed 3 home football games in the last six years. The band, however is another issue. Students are in class until Tuesday. Many of them are from far, far away (different than state schools). Given the distance, most don't go home for the occassional weekend (as might students from a state school), and instead may go home one time a semester for a visit. Expecting them to not spend Thanksgiving with their family is not realistic. Asking them to do a trip with a 48 hour turnaround is not realistic either. Coming up with a way to make a game over Thanksgiving weekend exciting should be a priority of the athletic department. I think there might be a lot of options if they were creative. However, placing the burden on the undergraduates who make up the band is simply not fair.

While North Carolina still has more students than any other state attending Duke, after NC the top states are New York, Florida, California, New Jersey, Virginia, Maryland, Texas, and Massachusetts. So unless the band is disproportionately represented by students from North Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland thinking the band can reconvene for a Thanksgiving eeekend game (meaning a return on Friday given that the game was a noon game) is simply not a reasonable expectation.

GADevilFan
11-30-2009, 01:24 PM
I am not a Duke alum, but realize the travel/ holiday issues. Regardless, I am SHOCKED the band did not play on Senior Day, a home game, and the final game of the season. The team, coaches, and University as a whole are doing much to improve the football situation at Duke..... But there is obviously a LONG way to go when it comes to "football culture." Small school, private school, whatever ... this is ACC, Division I, big time college football. The marching band needs to be present and perform at every home game.

Just my opinion.

Acymetric
11-30-2009, 01:27 PM
I am not a Duke alum, but realize the travel/ holiday issues. Regardless, I am SHOCKED the band did not play on Senior Day, a home game, and the final game of the season. The team, coaches, and University as a whole are doing much to improve the football situation at Duke..... But there is obviously a LONG way to go when it comes to "football culture." Small school, private school, whatever ... this is ACC, Division I, big time college football. The marching band needs to be present and perform at every home game.

Just my opinion.

The band will be there on Thanksgiving as soon as you start cutting checks for marching band scholarships or when you start volunteering to help fill in holes left by people that can't stay. If you aren't going to do either of those then I'm not sure why you expect any more from the band members.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-30-2009, 01:55 PM
This topic has come up in the past.

There is a lot of history behind how the marching band got to the point where it is now. Even in the "old days," our marching band was one of the smaller ones in the conference. The band did, however, have great spirit and provided an entertaining halftime show.

When Duke went to the Cotton Bowl in 1961, one of the issues at the time was the band members' being in Dallas to play at the bowl game. This was in the days of limited cuts in each class and required attendance in the class immediately before and after a holiday. Permission for the band members to miss the first day of classes following the holiday break was finally, but reluctantly, granted.

Somewhere along the way, the band was moved from the music department to the athletic department. For a number of years, recruiting band members from entering classes was not permitted. There was no band camp to prepare for the football season. Some progress has been made in recruiting and having band camp, but the university's support of the band is rather tepid at best. I hear from among the students that being in the band does not carry the prestige it once did.

Duke continues to change in a variety of ways. It's not now, nor will it ever be, the sort of setting where a large marching band will thrive as such those at LSU (325 members) Ohio State (225 based a British military band format), UNC (275) or Texas (350 students, 800 in the Alumni Band). As the culture on campus changes regarding football, there will be changes in the band. I think there will also come a time when those who want to support the band in various ways will have an opportunity to do so.

PumpkinFunk
11-30-2009, 02:22 PM
I'm going to say the same thing that everyone else said, but perhaps as a current band member, I can get this point across loud and clear:

Thanksgiving is a time to be with family. Most of the members of DUMB don't live within a reasonable distance - we have a lot of people from NY, Florida, California/West Coast - and can't be reasonably expected to have to spend 2 days traveling (Tuesday/Wednesday and Friday) for an even shorter-than-normal 2 day Thanksgiving. We're not being paid scholarship money and we're certainly not a public school with people dying to join the band. We are volunteers through and through at a school where football isn't popular and because of that, getting marchers is hard. The number of people who I know outside of the band who would join it if we didn't have to play for football is absurdly high. We work hard, but Thanksgiving has always been a week off for us to go home. We have to stay over Fall Break at least every other year, and if we went to a bowl, the whole band would most certainly be required to go.

If you want to give us scholarships and pay us to stay, donate the money to the Athletics Department specifically for the band. Until we have the money from alumni to travel to multiple away games or to stay over Thanksgiving, I don't think it's reasonable to expect a band of volunteers to stay over that break.

I left Friday from my house to come back for this game, because I'm 4 and a half hours away and given the bad football I've sat through, this year was a welcome relief. Not everyone in the band was able or willing to do that.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-30-2009, 02:39 PM
I'm going to say the same thing that everyone else said, but perhaps as a current band member, I can get this point across loud and clear:

Thanksgiving is a time to be with family. Most of the members of DUMB don't live within a reasonable distance - we have a lot of people from NY, Florida, California/West Coast - and can't be reasonably expected to have to spend 2 days traveling (Tuesday/Wednesday and Friday) for an even shorter-than-normal 2 day Thanksgiving. We're not being paid scholarship money and we're certainly not a public school with people dying to join the band. We are volunteers through and through at a school where football isn't popular and because of that, getting marchers is hard. The number of people who I know outside of the band who would join it if we didn't have to play for football is absurdly high. We work hard, but Thanksgiving has always been a week off for us to go home. We have to stay over Fall Break at least every other year, and if we went to a bowl, the whole band would most certainly be required to go.

If you want to give us scholarships and pay us to stay, donate the money to the Athletics Department specifically for the band. Until we have the money from alumni to travel to multiple away games or to stay over Thanksgiving, I don't think it's reasonable to expect a band of volunteers to stay over that break.

I left Friday from my house to come back for this game, because I'm 4 and a half hours away and given the bad football I've sat through, this year was a welcome relief. Not everyone in the band was able or willing to do that.

Some of us alums appreciate you and the other band members!

I'm very sympathetic to the current situation and have offered to help with recruiting or helping to raise money. It might also help to have more credits given in exchange for the time required to prepare for band performances.

Initially I was upset when the band was moved to the athletic department, but this is actually a good thing when it comes to fund raising.

Thank you, Pumpkinfunk, for your participation in the marching band.

6th Man
11-30-2009, 02:59 PM
PumpkinFunk, I started this post and think I started out on the wrong foot. First of all, thank you for all that you do. I mean you guys deserve all that you can get for what you are willing to do for the University. You are a big part of the football experience. I also think you deserve a break to be with family and to get away from college life. Certainly, Duke students as much as any University in America deserve a break.

When I started this post on Sat. night, I certainly didn't get the point across I was trying to make. It came out like I was criticizing the DUMB members and that is wrong of me given your volunteer efforts. For that I am sorry because you guys and girls deserve our praise. I do still feel that something needs to be done on days like this past Saturday. Again I appreciate those that played for us on Saturday.

I guess this really goes back to the Athletics Department on figuring out ways to improve the experience. Either by starting a scholarship drive for DUMB or by figuring other ways to make the atmosphere better by other methods on days the DUMB volunteers can't be there. My concern is that days like Sat. don't present a good perception of Duke's interest in football. Duke is certainly making efforts by improving facilities and the hiring of Coach Cut and staff. The team showed improvement once again this year. I just feel like on days like Sat., with it being senior day we came up short.

Again, my apologies to DUMB. I hope all of you had a great Thanksgiving.

allenmurray
11-30-2009, 03:02 PM
Small school, private school, whatever ... this is ACC, Division I, big time college football. The marching band needs to be present and perform at every home game.

So which are you gong to do - have the band over to your house for Thanksgiving dinner or drive them all back and forth from their homes in FL, CA, NY, etc. so they can get back in time? 'Cuz unless you're volunteering one or the other . . .

GADevilFan
11-30-2009, 03:15 PM
There were football games played all across this country on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. How many other home teams did not have a marching band??

I am not trying to be overly critical, but I believe that these things do matter.

GADevilFan
11-30-2009, 03:34 PM
I have been thinking about this issue ......

First of all band members deserve scholarships.

Secondly, Duke is a football team striving to grow .... and frankly the team has some unusal hurdles to cross. It is so important and this stage to impress recruits and put people in the stadium. Anything worth doing is worth doing well. That includes football, the band, and the gameday experience.

I believe this is a "football culture" issue. Duke is, and most likely will always be, a basketball school. No problem with that .... the basketball team is why I consider myself a Duke fan. But what is shocking to me (as a Georgia native, with a graduate degree from an SEC school) does not appear shocking to the alums. I believe that expecations will increase with more on the field success.

SupaDave
11-30-2009, 04:05 PM
There were football games played all across this country on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. How many other home teams did not have a marching band??

I am not trying to be overly critical, but I believe that these things do matter.

I have to say I agree with GDF. I was in attendance at the GT/Duke game and I kept wondering when Duke's band was coming out. The answer was "there is no band". I guess I knew that but it was "one of those out of sight out of mind" kinda deals b/c in all honesty I don't recall seeing Duke's band growing up.

However, some of the excuses you guys are making for not having a band are somewhat ridiculous. MANY smaller schools field bands - and scholarships for those that play. One has to look no further than NCCU for proof.

To be honest, I was shocked that Tech's TRAVELLING band was bigger than Duke's home band - and there was no thanksgiving to speak of that weekend.

I get what 6thDuke is saying. The band is a HUGE part of the football experience - at least to me. In undergrad I had the priviledge of hearing one of the best bands on the entire east coast - N.C. A&T's Blue and Gold Marching Machine. Even when the football teams sucks - people still come to see the band.

The band is so integral to football. They can keep the crowd hype and involved and they definitely fill the empty space in what could be a ugly loss. Not to mention, certain songs they play invite the crowd to perform along. For instance, when Tech's band plays "I'm a Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech" the entire crowd knows to bounce up and down. It's really cool to do and then you shout the chant at the end (no matter your version).

As far as local bands go - I can't understand why Duke doesn't have a high school of the week perform. Every high school in Durham has a Marching Band but NCSSM and the School of Arts I believe.

I would recommend the following band to save everyone some money and let the students do their work... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhA178ol-HY

DukieInKansas
11-30-2009, 04:16 PM
From my perspective after reading this thread, I'd like to emphasize to past, present, and future DUMBers - I don't think anyone is faulting the band. I think any change has to come from the University. They can do things, given enough funding, to make it possible for the band to play. If DUMB isn't available, as I said earlier, find a local high school band to play.

OT Question - do most of the students stay for the Monday and Tuesday classes of Thanksgiving week? Those were the few classes I skipped while there. (I know - I'm a geek that I didn't skip many classes.)

allenmurray
11-30-2009, 04:24 PM
However, some of the excuses you guys are making for not having a band are somewhat ridiculous. MANY smaller schools field bands - and scholarships for those that play. One has to look no further than NCCU for proof.

As far as local bands go - I can't understand why Duke doesn't have a high school of the week perform. Every high school in Durham has a Marching Band but NCSSM and the School of Arts I believe.

I would recommend the following band to save everyone some money and let the students do their work... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhA178ol-HY

Yes, NCCU has an extraordinary band. Just how many members of that band do you think live in California, or upstate New York, or Florida? Telling undergraduates that they should (at their own expense) miss spending Thanksgiving with their families (or reduce their five day visit to 48 hours) is a bit presumptous.

Having Hillisde's band is a great idea - especially since our starting RB is a graduate of Hillside. But asking 18 & 19 year old kids who live 1500 miles away to not spend Thanksgiving with their family, when their efforts are completely voluntary to begin with is just selfish.

SupaDave
11-30-2009, 04:36 PM
Yes, NCCU has an extraordinary band. Just how many members of that band do you think live in California, or upstate New York, or Florida? Telling undergraduates that they should (at their own expense) miss spending Thanksgiving with their families (or reduce their five day visit to 48 hours) is a bit presumptous.

Having Hillisde's band is a great idea - especially since our starting RB is a graduate of Hillside. But asking 18 & 19 year old kids who live 1500 miles away to not spend Thanksgiving with their family, when their efforts are completely voluntary to begin with is just selfish.

For the record, I could care less about whether they were there for Thanksgiving or not. I'm more concerned about the fielding of a band in general.

And as far as expecting kids not to go home b/c of Thanksgiving - if Duke had a REAL marching band then yes - I would expect some folks to stay but then again I would also hope that Duke athletics would work on that in the scheduling or make other provisions, i.e. the high school band.

devil84
11-30-2009, 04:42 PM
I agree with DukieinKansas -- nobody is faulting the band. Pumpkinfunk and the other DUMBers, you do a great job, particularly given all the constraints (from the inability to recruit and the lack of band camp until very recently to the incredible volunteer time commitment while taking a full load of classes). I've talked to Jeff Au a lot, as my children are wonderful musicians, and had hoped to go to Duke and join the band (alas, Duke thought otherwise). There are significant limitations at Duke, to say the least.

As far as getting a high school to fill in for Thanksgiving, most of the high school bands in the area finished the competitive marching season during the first week of November. To perform the show at the end of November means an extra three weeks of rehearsals to keep the show at peak performance, and finding extra time for the parade rehearsals for the many upcoming parades. I still work with a local high school band, and this is our third weekend off since the last Saturday in August, and our next weekend off is the one before Christmas. For some, this weekend was our only weekend to see the local college teams play. For others, it was the first weekend that the family could see other out of town family. It also costs money for the band to get there (buses use a lot of gas, we have to feed the kids, etc) -- most high school bands don't have the budget to take an extra trip (in Wake County, for example, the school system provides $0 annually to each school for marching band). In short, I'm not sure there would be bands willing to give up their first free weekend in forever. Many of the band families I know that stayed in town had tickets to the UNC/NCSU football game (think they want to march at Duke??!! And yes, a lot of families were at the Duke/Wake game, too.)

I've got some messages out to my band friends who are now in college marching bands to find out what their band did this past weekend. I'll post back what I find.

The biggest problem is having senior day football games on Thanksgiving weekend. THAT is the problem. And it doesn't matter if the school is 10 minutes or 10 hours from the student's home. State schools close the dorms, families go out of town or have other commitments, and those non-scholarship students that support the team (student managers and trainers, cheerleaders, and the band) all have to choose between seeing family or staying for the game (if the dorms are even open). It's not a winning combination for ANY school.

DukeUsul
11-30-2009, 04:43 PM
....if Duke had a REAL marching band ....

Come on, now.

Duvall
11-30-2009, 04:46 PM
I agree with DukieinKansas -- nobody is faulting the band.

Just saying it doesn't make it so. The "I'm not calling the students terrible, I'm faulting the administration for allowing the students to be terrible" dodge is awfully transparent.

SupaDave
11-30-2009, 04:50 PM
Anyone knocking what is essentially a pep band for not showing up is definitely not giving the students their due. Lord knows that I did not attempt not ONE volunteer activity in college unless it was good resume fodder...

devil84
11-30-2009, 04:55 PM
... if Duke had a REAL marching band ...


Come on, now.

I think SupaDave's quote should read "if Duke had a REAL commitment to a marching band program..."

For those of you reading, notes to the Athletic Director and cc'd to the band director would go a long way towards helping the Athletic Department see the need for, and possibly direct more resources toward, a great band. That would be:


Kevin White, Vice President, Director of Athletics & Adjunct Professor of Business Administration, kwhite@duaa.duke.edu
Jeff Au, band director, jau@duaa.duke.edu


(Emails gleaned from this page (http://www.goduke.com/StaffDirectory.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=4200) if you should want to seek out other names to cc)

With the little bit that I am aware of, DUMB is pretty awesome for the resources they have!

devil84
11-30-2009, 05:15 PM
Just saying it doesn't make it so. The "I'm not calling the students terrible, I'm faulting the administration for allowing the students to be terrible" dodge is awfully transparent.

I am wondering why the administration doesn't provide better support for the band. I applaud the students who did stay -- many thanks to those dedicated individuals. I don't fault those band students for going home for the holiday either, given there wasn't any incentive to stay. Who provides the incentive to stay? The administration.

And the students in the band are not terrible. For a band their size with the resources they are given, they do quite well. I am not faulting the band students at all. Give them a reason to stay (great band facilities and instruments, course credits, and scholarship or stipend money are a few examples), and they will quite likely stay.

6th Man
11-30-2009, 05:26 PM
I am wondering why the administration doesn't provide better support for the band. I applaud the students who did stay -- many thanks to those dedicated individuals. I don't fault those band students for going home for the holiday either, given there wasn't any incentive to stay. Who provides the incentive to stay? The administration.

And the students in the band are not terrible. For a band their size with the resources they are given, they do quite well. I am not faulting the band students at all. Give them a reason to stay (great band facilities and instruments, course credits, and scholarship or stipend money are a few examples), and they will quite likely stay.

As we have progressed with this thread I must say I agree 100%. An ACC school should provide better support for a band. I am sorry, but it is a necessity. You hear Cutcliffe say this all the time...it is what it is. You are either a football player or you're not. Well Duke, are you an ACC football school or are you not? We have got to step up to the plate in all aspects. Open up a scholarship drive. I'll contribute.

Acymetric
11-30-2009, 05:41 PM
I agree with DukieinKansas -- nobody is faulting the band. Pumpkinfunk and the other DUMBers, you do a great job, particularly given all the constraints (from the inability to recruit and the lack of band camp until very recently to the incredible volunteer time commitment while taking a full load of classes). I've talked to Jeff Au a lot, as my children are wonderful musicians, and had hoped to go to Duke and join the band (alas, Duke thought otherwise). There are significant limitations at Duke, to say the least.

As far as getting a high school to fill in for Thanksgiving, most of the high school bands in the area finished the competitive marching season during the first week of November. To perform the show at the end of November means an extra three weeks of rehearsals to keep the show at peak performance, and finding extra time for the parade rehearsals for the many upcoming parades. I still work with a local high school band, and this is our third weekend off since the last Saturday in August, and our next weekend off is the one before Christmas. For some, this weekend was our only weekend to see the local college teams play. For others, it was the first weekend that the family could see other out of town family. It also costs money for the band to get there (buses use a lot of gas, we have to feed the kids, etc) -- most high school bands don't have the budget to take an extra trip (in Wake County, for example, the school system provides $0 annually to each school for marching band). In short, I'm not sure there would be bands willing to give up their first free weekend in forever. Many of the band families I know that stayed in town had tickets to the UNC/NCSU football game (think they want to march at Duke??!! And yes, a lot of families were at the Duke/Wake game, too.)

I've got some messages out to my band friends who are now in college marching bands to find out what their band did this past weekend. I'll post back what I find.

The biggest problem is having senior day football games on Thanksgiving weekend. THAT is the problem. And it doesn't matter if the school is 10 minutes or 10 hours from the student's home. State schools close the dorms, families go out of town or have other commitments, and those non-scholarship students that support the team (student managers and trainers, cheerleaders, and the band) all have to choose between seeing family or staying for the game (if the dorms are even open). It's not a winning combination for ANY school.

Noting the financial struggles of band (I was in one of the Durham bands, I know), getting paid to perform at halftime at Duke may well be worth the extra weeks of rehearsal. Of course, perception-wise I'm not sure "Duke has to hire a high school marching band" is really an upgrade. Better to support the band we have, and provide students incentives (money, more than 1/4 credit hours that count towards gpa, money) to participate, and gradually create a good strong band culture. In addition, the fact that the band wasn't allowed to recruit freshman members or have band camp (someone posted this, if I read it right) is ridiculous, and the administration should be embarrassed.

PumpkinFunk
11-30-2009, 05:41 PM
Open up a scholarship drive. I'll contribute.

Talk to Athletics. Internally within the band, there's not much that can be done, from what I understand. We don't have money, we don't have enough people/proper instrumentation (I love my clarinet section, but we need more tubas/trombones and less of us). Athletics has supreme control over what we can or cannot do, and quite honestly, until there's the money, what you see now is what we'll get. We work hard, we work around intense class schedules for football and basketball, but we're a small band who looks and sounds like it constantly. We're not small for lack of trying internally, but given the athletics budget shortfall, I don't see us getting help anytime soon.

Richard Berg
11-30-2009, 05:45 PM
How many other home teams did not have a marching band??
Stanford is becoming a football power in the PAC 10. They beat Notre Dame over Thanksgiving to go to 8-4 on the year, and are currently ranked #20 by ESPN.

On Saturday, like every school holiday, their band had to draw heavily on alumni and still did not reach full strength. I wonder if anyone on their message boards is complaining.

(Note they were still able to perform at halftime since they employ a scatter band. Unlike a traditional marching show, which takes full-time DUMB members several weeks to prepare, scatter only requires a few student leaders to arrive early on the day-of & teach the formations to the old fartz.)

PumpkinFunk
11-30-2009, 05:48 PM
In addition, the fact that the band wasn't allowed to recruit freshman members or have band camp (someone posted this, if I read it right) is ridiculous, and the administration should be embarrassed.

We were able to recruit freshmen, but we weren't given a lot of help, just a very poor admissions list with names and no contacts. We did have a band camp, but we weren't able to get any sort of early move-in for freshmen (we did for upperclassmen, though). Band camp during freshmen orientation is incredibly tough because the freshmen, who tend to need need camp the most, are so in and out of practice it makes things tough.

zingit
11-30-2009, 06:34 PM
I'm going to play devil's advocate and suggest that when the athletic department, and Duke as a whole, are making budget cuts, that maybe extra money for the band is not and should not be at the top of their priority list. Listen, I sincerely love the band. Some of my best friends at Duke were in the band. I own the DUMB album and have rocked out to it more times than I should admit in a public forum. I almost always sat closer to the band at basketball games partly to make sure I could hear them better. I was in an orchestra growing up--not the same thing, but I definitely have sympathy for musicians. But if Duke decides that the marching band is one area where they have to skimp, I not only understand, but can even support that decision. I'm sure there are a hundred other programs on campus that are also saying, "Man, why doesn't the administration support us more?" that could make an equally if not more compelling justification for that money. None of us have to like it, and writing the administration to express your priorities is a good first step, but can we please cut down the self-righteous indignation a little bit about how much Duke spends on its band?

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-30-2009, 06:56 PM
I'm going to play devil's advocate and suggest that when the athletic department, and Duke as a whole, are making budget cuts, that maybe extra money for the band is not and should not be at the top of their priority list. Listen, I sincerely love the band. Some of my best friends at Duke were in the band. I own the DUMB album and have rocked out to it more times than I should admit in a public forum. I almost always sat closer to the band at basketball games partly to make sure I could hear them better. I was in an orchestra growing up--not the same thing, but I definitely have sympathy for musicians. But if Duke decides that the marching band is one area where they have to skimp, I not only understand, but can even support that decision. I'm sure there are a hundred other programs on campus that are also saying, "Man, why doesn't the administration support us more?" that could make an equally if not more compelling justification for that money. None of us have to like it, and writing the administration to express your priorities is a good first step, but can we please cut down the self-righteous indignation a little bit about how much Duke spends on its band?

I wish we could say that the underfunding and long term poor stewardship of the band program were the result of recent budget cuts, but that's not the case. The decline has been over a long period of time. Some of the details should be embarrassing to any school, let alone one which aspires to worldwide fame. (One example I remembering learning about from former band members, now posters on this board, was storing the band instruments in the tunnel into the stadium. Thank goodness, that's changed!) Students who participate in this program should expect that minimal standards for such ensembles would be observed.

I hope that those who are concerned and want to support the band program will follow up with contacting the AD and other line administrators. Being willing to pledge some money to support the program and receive credit as an Iron Duke would also be a step toward creating funding to meet minimal standards of operation.

zingit
11-30-2009, 07:08 PM
I wish we could say that the underfunding and long term poor stewardship of the band program were the result of recent budget cuts, but that's not the case. The decline has been over a long period of time.

Just to clarify, I never said that past funding of the program is related to recent budget cuts. I'm saying that future funding is. In other words, if you're asking Duke to increase the amount it spend on the band, that may be especially tough in current circumstances, as I doubt Duke is looking to increase spending on just about anything these days. Whatever Duke spent in the past is gone; there's nothing anyone here can do about that.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-30-2009, 07:35 PM
Just to clarify, I never said that past funding of the program is related to recent budget cuts. I'm saying that future funding is. In other words, if you're asking Duke to increase the amount it spend on the band, that may be especially tough in current circumstances, as I doubt Duke is looking to increase spending on just about anything these days. Whatever Duke spent in the past is gone; there's nothing anyone here can do about that.

I understand. I wanted to note the situation is one of longstanding; some reading the posts may be unfamiliar with the past history regarding band funding.

I said nothing about Duke increasing funding, but noted that donors could ask to target the band for part or all of their pledges. Currently, Iron Duke pledges are generally not earmarked for any particular use. I am also suggesting that pledges for the band be honored toward one's standing as an Iron Duke.

DukeUsul
11-30-2009, 07:38 PM
Just to clarify a possible misconception, the statement about not being able to recruit freshmen and have a band camp was in the past. As PumkinFunk pointed out, both activities have been occurring for at least the last 15 years - although in a severely limited fashion.

Oh and as soon as I win the lottery, I'm endowing scholarships for the entire sax line.

DukeUsul
11-30-2009, 07:39 PM
Also, credit should go to the athletic department, Jeff, the students, the coaches and whoever was involved in putting together this recruitment video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reUbKkoigA0

wolffnc3
11-30-2009, 07:48 PM
As former DUMB member and current local alumnus I can comment somewhat on the state of the band.

The students in the band are all volunteers, who dedicate incredible amounts of time to duke athletics with virtually no commitment in return. Posters on this board have bemoaned the lack of student attendance at football games and basketball games; the band members are at every game, usually 2 hours early, plus women's games and even some of the volleyball games. They are among the most dedicated student fans.

The band has one dedicated staff member, who I don't believe is a full time employee (he wasn't when I was a student) and he has no assistant. Any budget or funding for new music, instruments or uniforms is almost non-existent. Nor is there much non-financial support from the Athletic Department. We used to practice in an open grassy area on east campus, with a 100ft oak tree on the 20 yard line. Our instruments and uniforms were stored in an 8ft wide hallway in the basement between Cameron and card gym which often leaked and ruined both. Many students play on university provided instruments which are exceedingly old and dysfunctional. For example, when I went to pick up a Tuba for this weekends football game the band director told me to "pick one with all three valves."

If there is a question of spending money on the band; the amount that is currently being spent is next to nothing, even a small increase would go far.

In the athletic department’s defense, I would guess that they have no input from alumni or fans about the band and as a result do not consider it a priority. They need to hear from fans that band is a vital part of the game day experience. The band program is just like the football program. If we want it to improve, we need to have a higher level of support and expectations from the fans, the athletics department, and the students.

Many of the ideas I've heard so far are great: class credit, scholarships, Iron Duke credit for donations etc... Please communicate them to the Athletic Department along with your vocal support.

As far as I am aware Jacki Silar (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=157707) (Associate Athletic Director) is the administrator most involved with the band.

DevilAlumna
11-30-2009, 08:12 PM
As we have progressed with this thread I must say I agree 100%. An ACC school should provide better support for a band. I am sorry, but it is a necessity. You hear Cutcliffe say this all the time...it is what it is. You are either a football player or you're not. Well Duke, are you an ACC football school or are you not? We have got to step up to the plate in all aspects. Open up a scholarship drive. I'll contribute.

Not directed completely at 6th man, but man, some folks here are a pushy, expectant lot. It used to be Duke fans just wanted a single football win for the season. Now, apparently, not only is a 5-win season not good enough - we have to have the entire culture of a Top Division I football program! Right now!

I'm sorry, but that's not in Duke's current DNA, and Coach Cut and staff have other priorities. Frankly, I'd rather they worry about getting someone to replace Vinnie Rey or Vince O, than whether there's a band over Thanksgiving weekend.

Now, I grew up in Nebraska and know and love a strong football atmosphere. I think Duke can get there. But to expect it to happen NOW is just absurd. Build the team. Build the wins. Build a student base that comes to campus expecting to see good football on Saturdays, and a strong volunteer band for Football as well as basketball should follow.

6th Man
11-30-2009, 09:28 PM
Frankly, I'd rather they worry about getting someone to replace Vinnie Rey or Vince O, than whether there's a band over Thanksgiving weekend.

But if we are looking for the next Vinnie Rey or Vince O and they were visiting Duke Saturday and saw senior day...an empty field at halftime, a small pep band in the stands...you think that is where they want to come? Is that the atmosphere they want to spend the next 4 years? Sure a Duke education sells itself. Sure Coach Cut and a brilliant staff will sell itself. But Duke's gameday atmosphere has to be the worst in the BCS. I am proud of our 5 win season. But I guarantee you that our atmosphere is losing us some recruits. And when do we stop saying that it's OK....when we start winning games the atmosphere will come? I have heard that for 25+ years.

From this thread it has come to my attention how little is done to support a band. It's as bad to me as the 80 yard practice field we had. I realize this can't be done overnight, but we have to start working at it.

Greg_Newton
12-01-2009, 02:18 AM
Not directed completely at 6th man, but man, some folks here are a pushy, expectant lot. It used to be Duke fans just wanted a single football win for the season. Now, apparently, not only is a 5-win season not good enough - we have to have the entire culture of a Top Division I football program! Right now!

I'm sorry, but that's not in Duke's current DNA, and Coach Cut and staff have other priorities. Frankly, I'd rather they worry about getting someone to replace Vinnie Rey or Vince O, than whether there's a band over Thanksgiving weekend.

Now, I grew up in Nebraska and know and love a strong football atmosphere. I think Duke can get there. But to expect it to happen NOW is just absurd. Build the team. Build the wins. Build a student base that comes to campus expecting to see good football on Saturdays, and a strong volunteer band for Football as well as basketball should follow.

If you are implying that Coach Cut doesn't care about the gameday atmosphere, I think that you are sorely mistaken. He made repeated appeals to the fans and students all season long to come out and make some noise, and emphasized how much of a boost it gave the team.

I think people are kind of jumping down 6th Man's throat unnecessarily. I believe his intent was simply to point out an issue and stimulate discussion on how to improve upon it, which does not warrant multiple responses of "donate money or shut up". Obviously everyone appreciates the effort of the volunteer band corps... no need to get defensive.

I kind of wish Duke would undertake some type drastic measure involving ticket pricing/distribution next year. Who cares if you make less money for a year, if it can generate the critical mass needed for an actual football atmosphere its well worth it in the long term for many reasons. Lowering the field and eliminating the track would also be great, but I guess it's hard to justify doing that when the stadium's never close to full anyway.

IMO, 6th Man is absolutely right in saying the atmosphere at Wade is a big obstacle in our recruiting. I found myself thinking about this at the game Saturday, a couple weeks after being at the Ole Miss-UT game... if I put myself in a recruit's shoes, the thrill of hearing a ferocious 50-80k crowd roar every time I make a play is a huge, huge draw. It's the kind of thing a recruit may not reference specifically when discussing their decision, but could very well be a deciding factor. Obviously we're not going to duplicate that environment anytime soon, but it would be nice to give guys some sense of the big time when they play at home. If only there was some way to make Duke football more of a "Durham" thing, rather than just Duke...

devil84
12-01-2009, 11:33 AM
I've talked with students in the band at ECU and NCSU -- both had home games last weekend and a good band presence. The reason why the bands are so well attended over the holiday is that marching band is a course. At ECU, it's one credit for music majors and two credits for non-majors. Not sure of the credits at NCSU. If you miss a football game, you basically fail the course. That's a lot of incentive to stay! And note that the Duke-NCSU game was at State over their fall break, and the NSCU-UNC game was at State over Thanksgiving. These kids didn't get a break!

Both bands have a number of students who are not from North Carolina. At ECU, the students who are from the far western part of the state could have a 5 hour traveling distance; at State, it goes down to 4 hours. Distance is still an issue for many of these students (students from some places in SC, GA, VA, and even DC/MD could have shorter travel times to Durham than students at state universities in NC). Those at NCSU had to vacate their dorms by 10am on Wednesday, and they were re-opened at 7pm on Friday, essentially mandating a drive home (or finding alternate lodging and meals). There are still issues with getting home for in-state students.

ECU kids get stipends, NCSU kids pay low fees. The ECU kids LOVE their uniforms for the pep band -- Nike wind suits that they get to keep at no cost to them. They get fed at the games (I think Duke gives tickets for drinks and pizza to the pep band), and they get paid for showing up to the basketball games and can make $200 for the season if they show up for all home basketball games (another $200 for football for all seniors and all tuba players).

I'll find out more soon, but in talking with my high school marching band kids who have moved on to the ASU, WCU, UNC, NCCU, Auburn, WFU, and other marching bands, they seem to have similar stories -- it's a class, required for some majors, and the administration supports the band far more than Duke's administration does.

One of my high school band kids who went to ECU his freshman year and transferred to NC State his sophomore year and is now a junior had this to say: "In my opinion, with marching band and any school it is entirely dependent upon the success of the football team. I know here at State when our team has done bad the numbers in the band have gone down and last year when we finished strong and we were predicted to do well our numbers went up. I think that when Duke gets going again (which they are well on their way) that the same will happen over there."

I think he's right. We haven't had a winning football team for, well, a while.

Wake Forest has a great band program. They are able to do a corps-style half-time show with only two rehearsals per week. Rehearsals work well with classes, well enough that there are a number of triple-majors (none of which are music) in the band. They have a dedicated assistant band director for athletic bands who is also a phenomenal drill writer. They recruit band members from high school and have the means to help supplement tuition for band members. It's a great program. [Disclaimer: my son is working on transferring to WFU and the band has recruited my son.]

And yes, now is not really a good time for the administration to start shoveling money to the band. HOWEVER, now is a GREAT time to note to the Athletic Department that you missed the band last weekend. Letting them know that a band is an important part of the game day experience to you, that you missed it, and you really would like a band like the other ACC schools is important. THEY NEED TO HEAR THIS, so that when the money opens up, they know where the needs are. If we go to a bowl game, we're going to want a good band there with us!

And yes, Cutcliffe knows the importance of a good band, but the Athletic Department needs to hear that the alumni/boosters/ticket holders want to see better support for the band. Donations earmarked for the band will help, too. (It'd be nice to have tubas with working valves, for example. Repairs will probably cost several hundred dollars, new tubas are at least $4K each.)

Devil in the Blue Dress
12-01-2009, 12:04 PM
I've talked with students in the band at ECU and NCSU -- both had home games last weekend and a good band presence. The reason why the bands are so well attended over the holiday is that marching band is a course. At ECU, it's one credit for music majors and two credits for non-majors. Not sure of the credits at NCSU. If you miss a football game, you basically fail the course. That's a lot of incentive to stay! And note that the Duke-NCSU game was at State over their fall break, and the NSCU-UNC game was at State over Thanksgiving. These kids didn't get a break!

Both bands have a number of students who are not from North Carolina. At ECU, the students who are from the far western part of the state could have a 5 hour traveling distance; at State, it goes down to 4 hours. Distance is still an issue for many of these students (students from some places in SC, GA, VA, and even DC/MD could have shorter travel times to Durham than students at state universities in NC). Those at NCSU had to vacate their dorms by 10am on Wednesday, and they were re-opened at 7pm on Friday, essentially mandating a drive home (or finding alternate lodging and meals). There are still issues with getting home for in-state students.

ECU kids get stipends, NCSU kids pay low fees. The ECU kids LOVE their uniforms for the pep band -- Nike wind suits that they get to keep at no cost to them. They get fed at the games (I think Duke gives tickets for drinks and pizza to the pep band), and they get paid for showing up to the basketball games and can make $200 for the season if they show up for all home basketball games (another $200 for football for all seniors and all tuba players).

I'll find out more soon, but in talking with my high school marching band kids who have moved on to the ASU, WCU, UNC, NCCU, Auburn, WFU, and other marching bands, they seem to have similar stories -- it's a class, required for some majors, and the administration supports the band far more than Duke's administration does.

One of my high school band kids who went to ECU his freshman year and transferred to NC State his sophomore year and is now a junior had this to say: "In my opinion, with marching band and any school it is entirely dependent upon the success of the football team. I know here at State when our team has done bad the numbers in the band have gone down and last year when we finished strong and we were predicted to do well our numbers went up. I think that when Duke gets going again (which they are well on their way) that the same will happen over there."

I think he's right. We haven't had a winning football team for, well, a while.

Wake Forest has a great band program. They are able to do a corps-style half-time show with only two rehearsals per week. Rehearsals work well with classes, well enough that there are a number of triple-majors (none of which are music) in the band. They have a dedicated assistant band director for athletic bands who is also a phenomenal drill writer. They recruit band members from high school and have the means to help supplement tuition for band members. It's a great program. [Disclaimer: my son is working on transferring to WFU and the band has recruited my son.]

And yes, now is not really a good time for the administration to start shoveling money to the band. HOWEVER, now is a GREAT time to note to the Athletic Department that you missed the band last weekend. Letting them know that a band is an important part of the game day experience to you, that you missed it, and you really would like a band like the other ACC schools is important. THEY NEED TO HEAR THIS, so that when the money opens up, they know where the needs are. If we go to a bowl game, we're going to want a good band there with us!

And yes, Cutcliffe knows the importance of a good band, but the Athletic Department needs to hear that the alumni/boosters/ticket holders want to see better support for the band. Donations earmarked for the band will help, too. (It'd be nice to have tubas with working valves, for example. Repairs will probably cost several hundred dollars, new tubas are at least $4K each.)

Great post!

Being a member of a marching band takes lots of work. Those of us in the stands generally have little reason to understand the significant investment of time and money that goes into a successful band's performance.

Just as recruiting is basic to a good athletic team, so it is for an outstanding band.

Thank you, devil84, for sharing your behind the scenes insights and information. Maybe some of the posters will become band boosters!

uh_no
12-01-2009, 01:12 PM
Great post!

Just as recruiting is basic to a good athletic team, so it is for an outstanding band.
!


Yeah, without recruiting, the band would be alarmingly unathletic....

sagegrouse
12-01-2009, 01:18 PM
Yeah, without recruiting, the band would be alarmingly unathletic....

Here's what "throatybeard" had to say on the same subject on page 1:




My main concern about the band is that they look alarmingly unathletic.
__________________

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
---Jiddu Krishnamurti


Great minds etc., etc....

sagegrouse

orrnot
12-01-2009, 01:29 PM
I kind of wish Duke would undertake some type drastic measure involving ticket pricing/distribution next year. Who cares if you make less money for a year, if it can generate the critical mass needed for an actual football atmosphere its well worth it in the long term for many reasons.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I wonder if you're familiar with what was done this season. I'm fairly sure every home game featured deeply discounted tickets for employees--these promotions were typically announced each game week, and the Georgia Tech game featured free tickets for military personnel. I have discounted season tickets myself that reflect a really strong bargain. My guess is that Duke football offers ticket pricing superior to any BCS school's offering, but I'll admit that's just a guess.
I'm not saying you're out of your mind--I think Duke has embarked on a two year implementation of your plan. Thus far, I'd say it has worked, in that we've had numbers superior to what we'd seen previously. I don't doubt that Coach Cutcliffe himself and the football team's improvement were major contributors as well.
If anything, I think Duke may have to ask itself at what point its deep discounting devalues the product and/or discourages face value participation from supporters. I don't think they've hit that point yet, but it may be on the horizon.
My speculation is that the crowd at last week's Wake Forest game was superior in numbers to anything we'd have seen at a similar matchup, on Thanksgiving weekend, a few years back. To return to the point of the thread, it was a crowd notable for its relative silence. Wake's band was missed, as were our students, and of course our student band members.

Sandman
12-01-2009, 02:06 PM
DUMB has been an area of concern at Duke as far back as I can remember (the 50s?). That's probably the same at all small widely dispersed private universities. If the status quo is not acceptable, perhaps it's time for Duke to do what it is renowned for - "thinking outside the box" - to address University issues. One thing it could consider is to open DUMB membership up to non-Duke local residents, who could possibly bring a high level of enthusiasm and availability to the band, as well as strengthen local community ties. Just a thought.

77devil
12-01-2009, 02:32 PM
But if we are looking for the next Vinnie Rey or Vince O and they were visiting Duke Saturday and saw senior day...an empty field at halftime, a small pep band in the stands...you think that is where they want to come? Is that the atmosphere they want to spend the next 4 years? Sure a Duke education sells itself. Sure Coach Cut and a brilliant staff will sell itself. But Duke's gameday atmosphere has to be the worst in the BCS. I am proud of our 5 win season. But I guarantee you that our atmosphere is losing us some recruits. And when do we stop saying that it's OK....when we start winning games the atmosphere will come? I have heard that for 25+ years.

From this thread it has come to my attention how little is done to support a band. It's as bad to me as the 80 yard practice field we had. I realize this can't be done overnight, but we have to start working at it.

Been away for a couple of days and am amazed that this thread still has legs. I'll jump in at this point because I'm dumbfounded by the infrerence that recruiting suffers from the absence of a marching band. I've known a lot of D-1 football players over the years including ones at Duke, though that was a while ago, and I have never heard anyone attach any importance to the band in their selection decision.

DukeBlueNikeShox
12-01-2009, 02:46 PM
For those suggesting Duke should follow what A&T, NCCU, and any other HBCU does, you can cancel that idea! For starters, people go to HBCU games just for the band and Halftime Show. People could care less about the actual football game. The bands are always better than the football teams, because the bands practice more than the football teams! You'd have an easier time in Army Boot Camp than joining a HBCU band! lol

SCMatt33
12-01-2009, 02:51 PM
First, as a recent band graduate, I am at least happy to see so many people take in interest in what the band does.

I think a highly overlooked issue here is Duke student culture, not football culture. There is a very academic atmosphere at Duke (and rightfully so) that causes many students to not attend athletic events (including basketball games). Being in the band puts you at every home football game with the possible exception of thanksgiving. Being at every single game until this year, I can tell you that the band outnumbered other students in the first half through last year, and even last year, by the fourth quarter most students had left unless the game was close, whether it was duke winning or not. It is much more important to fill the rest of the stadium, especially the student section, before harping on the band program for taking one game off per year.

allenmurray
12-01-2009, 03:50 PM
First, as a recent band graduate, I am at least happy to see so many people take in interest in what the band does.

I think a highly overlooked issue here is Duke student culture, not football culture. There is a very academic atmosphere at Duke (and rightfully so) that causes many students to not attend athletic events (including basketball games). Being in the band puts you at every home football game with the possible exception of thanksgiving. Being at every single game until this year, I can tell you that the band outnumbered other students in the first half through last year, and even last year, by the fourth quarter most students had left unless the game was close, whether it was duke winning or not. It is much more important to fill the rest of the stadium, especially the student section, before harping on the band program for taking one game off per year.

Absolutely! the band shows more support for football than any other segment of the student body - for the DUMB to be the target of criticism is really unfair.

DevilAlumna
12-01-2009, 03:52 PM
If you are implying that Coach Cut doesn't care about the gameday atmosphere, I think that you are sorely mistaken. He made repeated appeals to the fans and students all season long to come out and make some noise, and emphasized how much of a boost it gave the team.


Not at all. I think it's of high importance to him. However, like recruiting and building up the team, building up a student body that appreciates a football culture will take some time. Be realistic - what junior or senior at Duke came because of the strong Football Saturday tradition?

SCMatt33 also makes the same point, probably better than I did originally.

devildeac
12-01-2009, 08:30 PM
The challenge will be deciding what to bring to tailgate that can travel from Kansas.

We have grocery stores in Derm, too.:rolleyes::D

DukieInKansas
12-02-2009, 12:42 AM
We have grocery stores in Derm, too.:rolleyes::D

Really? Who knew? ;)

It's more the kitchen issue.