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Lord Ash
11-27-2009, 09:19 PM
From the postgame transcript...

Q. Doug Gottlieb called your team alarmingly unathletic. Did you think today answered that question pretty emphatically?

COACH MIKE KRZYZEWSKI: He should be an expert on alarmingly non‑athletic. So I'll have to take a look at that a little bit closer because it comes from an expert who actually knows what it feels like to be alarmingly non‑athletic.

Actually, we're pretty athletic; we're just not as athletic as Connecticut. Singler is a really good athlete. Lance, Miles. Jon is not leaping tall buildings with a single bound but he's a real good athlete. But I wouldn't call us like this athletic team, but we're not amazingly non‑athletic. And I would rather not get into a discussion with Doug because I have respect of his stature and he should have his arguments with people of similar stature. That would be a good thing.



Q. 25 offensive rebounds on a team like UCONN with their size and athleticism; what do you chalk that up to?

COACH MIKE KRZYZEWSKI: Well, we're big too. Non‑athletic but very big.



Q. Kyle, 2‑of‑12, 6 points, he shoots 29 percent. I told you those numbers coming into the game.

COACH MIKE KRZYZEWSKI: I would have been very worried or mad at you. I would have told you to go talk to Doug Gottlieb. You don't have to do that by the way. I won't punish you like that.


http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204841093

dalmatians98
11-27-2009, 09:21 PM
LOL!!!

moonpie23
11-27-2009, 09:25 PM
BOO-YA !!!!

gotleib?????

Heelkiller1
11-27-2009, 09:26 PM
Too much

devildeac
11-27-2009, 09:27 PM
From the postgame transcript...

Q. Doug Gottlieb called your team alarmingly unathletic. Did you think today answered that question pretty emphatically?

COACH MIKE KRZYZEWSKI: He should be an expert on alarmingly non‑athletic. So I'll have to take a look at that a little bit closer because it comes from an expert who actually knows what it feels like to be alarmingly non‑athletic.

Actually, we're pretty athletic; we're just not as athletic as Connecticut. Singler is a really good athlete. Lance, Miles. Jon is not leaping tall buildings with a single bound but he's a real good athlete. But I wouldn't call us like this athletic team, but we're not amazingly non‑athletic. And I would rather not get into a discussion with Doug because I have respect of his stature and he should have his arguments with people of similar stature. That would be a good thing.



Q. 25 offensive rebounds on a team like UCONN with their size and athleticism; what do you chalk that up to?

COACH MIKE KRZYZEWSKI: Well, we're big too. Non‑athletic but very big.



Q. Kyle, 2‑of‑12, 6 points, he shoots 29 percent. I told you those numbers coming into the game.

COACH MIKE KRZYZEWSKI: I would have been very worried or mad at you. I would have told you to go talk to Doug Gottlieb. You don't have to do that by the way. I won't punish you like that.


http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204841093

Absolutely hilarious. ROTFLMAO.
And I'd bet K dead-panned every second of that sequence.

Lord Ash
11-27-2009, 09:28 PM
Coach K has an awesome sense of humor, and it can be biting. Good for him.

darthur
11-27-2009, 09:30 PM
Ouch!

moonpie23
11-27-2009, 09:32 PM
well, notto defend gotdweeb, but he DID pick duke to win...:eek:

DukeUsul
11-27-2009, 09:32 PM
I love our coach. That's just great. Although in Gottlieb's defense, he WAS the one to pick us.

Heelkiller1
11-27-2009, 09:34 PM
ESPN is full of a bunch of goobers.Non-athletic my *** hows 25 off rebounds for non-athletic.lol

jv001
11-27-2009, 09:40 PM
Coach K was just telling the truth about Gottlip..Coach can certainly make the idiots feel a foot tall. Go Coach K and Go Duke!

JasonEvans
11-27-2009, 09:42 PM
When I think of alarmingly unathletic...
http://cache.deadspin.com/sports/douggottlieb.jpg http://www.branchwest.com/images/Doug_Gottlieb_1.jpg

--Jason "we keed, we keed" Evans

davekay1971
11-27-2009, 09:45 PM
If I remember correctly, Coach K didn't recruit Gottleib because he thought Dougie was too athletic for Duke's system. He didn't want to be in a Dean Smith-Michael Jordan situation and have to hold the guy in check his whole college career.

dukelifer
11-27-2009, 09:55 PM
From the postgame transcript...

Q. Doug Gottlieb called your team alarmingly unathletic. Did you think today answered that question pretty emphatically?

COACH MIKE KRZYZEWSKI: He should be an expert on alarmingly non‑athletic. So I'll have to take a look at that a little bit closer because it comes from an expert who actually knows what it feels like to be alarmingly non‑athletic.

Actually, we're pretty athletic; we're just not as athletic as Connecticut. Singler is a really good athlete. Lance, Miles. Jon is not leaping tall buildings with a single bound but he's a real good athlete. But I wouldn't call us like this athletic team, but we're not amazingly non‑athletic. And I would rather not get into a discussion with Doug because I have respect of his stature and he should have his arguments with people of similar stature. That would be a good thing.



Q. 25 offensive rebounds on a team like UCONN with their size and athleticism; what do you chalk that up to?

COACH MIKE KRZYZEWSKI: Well, we're big too. Non‑athletic but very big.



Q. Kyle, 2‑of‑12, 6 points, he shoots 29 percent. I told you those numbers coming into the game.

COACH MIKE KRZYZEWSKI: I would have been very worried or mad at you. I would have told you to go talk to Doug Gottlieb. You don't have to do that by the way. I won't punish you like that.


http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204841093

K sounds a bit like his mentor in this exchange. Of course a win will bring out the humor.

COYS
11-27-2009, 10:04 PM
K sounds a bit like his mentor in this exchange. Of course a win will bring out the humor.

Love it. Gottleib's comment was so silly, though, it's not really worth dealing with. But since the question was asked, humor is the only way to go.

Newton_14
11-27-2009, 10:05 PM
Way to go coach. You said exactly what all of us would have wanted you to.

Since we are on this subject... I have gotten sick and tired of the term "un-athletic". Especially since in the ESPN generation we are living in, the talking heads have changed the definition of athletic.

The online dictionary defines the word as:
ath⋅let⋅ic  /æθˈlɛtɪk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ath-let-ik] Show IPA
–adjective

1. physically active and strong; good at athletics or sports: an athletic child.
2. of, like, or befitting an athlete.
3. of or pertaining to athletes; involving the use of physical skills or capabilities, as strength, agility, or stamina: athletic sports; athletic training.
4. for athletics: an athletic field.
5. Psychology. (of a physical type) having a sturdy build or well-proportioned body structure. Compare asthenic (def. 2), pyknic (def. 1).

Somewhere along the way the meaning was changed to: ability to jump high, run fast, and quickness

I have encountered a lot of people in my sports life that could run fast, jump high, and were quick, but basically could not play a lick in sports like basketball, baseball, football, soccer, etc. They simply lacked the athletic ability required to play those sports.

There are obviously a lot of great athletes that play basketball that not only run fast and jump high but also have great basketball skill, but there are also a lot of great athletes like Jon Scheyer for example that have above average basketball skills, hand/eye coordination, body control, agility, etc that lack tremendous jumping ability and foot speed. And Jon is quite a bit quicker and faster than he often gets credit for.

Kyle Singler, Demarcus Nelson, and Greg Paulus were all great basketball players in high school while also being great quarterbacks in football. In my humble opinion, it takes above average "athletic" ability to be able to accomplish that.

Just my two cents. And thanks to THe Lord Ash for posting that quote from Coach. That was by far the quote of the month!

Lord Ash
11-27-2009, 10:18 PM
"Athletic" nowadays is used as a term to quickly and easily descibe, albeit in an unfair way, a certain subset of skills that are part of what we more commonly known as being "athletic."

Unfortunately the idea of "athletic" is a bit warped in basketball, and indeed across all of the major "professional"-level sports, and has even become a bit tied into race.

Ridiculous, obviously... anyone who looks at Miles Plumlee and, hell, Greg Paulus, and says the kids aren't athletic is a moron.

jv001
11-27-2009, 10:22 PM
"Athletic" nowadays is used as a term to quickly and easily descibe, albeit in an unfair way, a certain subset of skills that are part of what we more commonly known as being "athletic."

Unfortunately the idea of "athletic" is a bit warped in basketball, and indeed across all of the major "professional"-level sports, and has even become a bit tied into race.

Ridiculous, obviously... anyone who looks at Miles Plumlee and says the kid isn't athletic is a moron.

You have called it correctly. It has become tied into race and that is why Duke gets hated on too many times. I agree if a person cannot recognize the athletic ability of Miles Plumlee they are indeed a moron. Go Duke!

devildeac
11-27-2009, 10:37 PM
The Plumlee brothers were pretty darn good high jumpers (I'm specifically referring to their ability WRT to track and field here) in HS, too.

rthomas
11-27-2009, 10:45 PM
Coach K was not only defending his team from Gottleib but defending Jason if you listen carefully.

Wander
11-27-2009, 10:46 PM
=
Kyle Singler, Demarcus Nelson, and Greg Paulus were all great basketball players in high school while also being great quarterbacks in football. In my humble opinion, it takes above average "athletic" ability to be able to accomplish that.


=
Ridiculous, obviously... anyone who looks at Miles Plumlee and, hell, Greg Paulus, and says the kids aren't athletic is a moron


You guys are being absurd. When people say that Paulus is unathletic, they're not comparing him to the general population, but to high level Division 1 basketball players. Would you call Brian Zoubek, Lance Thomas, or Demarcus Nelson great shooters? I'm sure they all can shoot a basketball better than 99% of the world population.

Still, calling the team alarmingly unathletic is a big exaggeration, and that's a hilarious response.

cspan37421
11-27-2009, 11:00 PM
IMO it's code for race. In a related story, check out this week's SI Point After by Phil Taylor.

Newton_14
11-27-2009, 11:01 PM
Coach K was not only defending his team from Gottleib but defending Jason if you listen carefully.

I caught that too. Very subtle but definitely making a point.

dukelifer
11-27-2009, 11:10 PM
The Plumlee brothers were pretty darn good high jumpers (I'm specifically referring to their ability WRT to track and field here) in HS, too.

In the ASU game- Plumlees block and then ducking backwards - limbo-like under the backboard to avoid a concussion is about as athletic a play as a human can make.

Newton_14
11-27-2009, 11:12 PM
You guys are being absurd. When people say that Paulus is unathletic, they're not comparing him to the general population, but to high level Division 1 basketball players. Would you call Brian Zoubek, Lance Thomas, or Demarcus Nelson great shooters? I'm sure they all can shoot a basketball better than 99% of the world population.

Still, calling the team alarmingly unathletic is a big exaggeration, and that's a hilarious response.

You don't think Greg Paulus and Demarcus Nelson are great athletes? You named one single skill with shooting. Athletic ability is about having multiple skills, not just a few, and all I am saying is that the word athletic is not defined as simply foot speed, and vertical leap.

Olek has been described as being very athletic simply because he has a very good vertical leap. But that one skill does not make a person a great athlete. It makes them a great leaper. If you read my entire post you would see that I said there are many great athletes in college basketball that not only have great leaping ability and foot speed, but also have a host of other athletic skills needed to excel in the game of basketball.

And I stand behind my examples. There is no way a non-athletic person could pull off being a starter in 2 different Division 1 sports as Greg has done being a starting point guard at Duke and a starting QB at Syracuse. Only a great athlete could be able to that.

jipops
11-27-2009, 11:14 PM
I love our coach. That's just great. Although in Gottlieb's defense, he WAS the one to pick us.

Sure he used his pick on Duke, but come on - he didn't exactly look like he was sold on his pick. He shrugged his shoulders and said "Duke" like he felt it was something he might as well do. If he felt like Duke was so non-athletic with a coaching staff that makes incomprehensible decisions, then why would he pick that team against a UConn team that was seemingly so different?

My wife was sitting in the room while Gottlieb started his hot air assault in the pre-game and asked the rest of us, "Wow, who is this guy who is so in love with himself?". Even for someone who is not privy to Doug's usual and often biting remarks concerning Duke, she could tell right away he wasn't someone worth listening to.

I'm quite sure Doug will use K's comments as a vendetta in the future.

darthur
11-27-2009, 11:19 PM
Since we are on this subject... I have gotten sick and tired of the term "un-athletic". Especially since in the ESPN generation we are living in, the talking heads have changed the definition of athletic.

Yes they have. But like you say, it's not a change that's still happening, it's a change that's done. So why worry about it too much? In the context of basketball today, being "athletic" means you are extremely fast (both in the normal sense and in the first step sense) and you are a great jumper. That's just how it is.

camion
11-27-2009, 11:19 PM
I'm quite sure Doug will use K's comments as a vendetta in the future.

And that will be different from his current position in some way?

moonpie23
11-27-2009, 11:23 PM
does anyone know when dougie will be served his on-air crow?

Newton_14
11-27-2009, 11:28 PM
Yes they have. But like you say, it's not a change that's still happening, it's a change that's done. So why worry about it too much? In the context of basketball today, being "athletic" means you are extremely fast (both in the normal sense and in the first step sense) and you are a great jumper. That's just how it is.

Yeah, you are right about that. And I wasn't intending on starting a war or anything, just wanted to state my opinion on it. It is just one of those things that get started and become fact. I agree in the world we live in people have been conditioned to accept it as fact. Kind of like saying Calipari is the best at developing point guards and readying them for the NBA in one year. You would think the guy has sent 15 or 20 one and done pg's to the NBA who all became stars. The real facts say otherwise.

No biggie.. I did really love Coach K's response to Gottlieb, that was classic...

DukeBlood
11-27-2009, 11:34 PM
As always, a good read.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=oneil_dana&id=4694422

devildeac
11-27-2009, 11:42 PM
As always, a good read.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=oneil_dana&id=4694422

Funniest part of this article:

Yeah, when we get him (Mason) we'll be even more athletic than people don't think we are,'' Smith said.

Greg_Newton
11-27-2009, 11:51 PM
does anyone know when dougie will be served his on-air crow?

Yeah, I'm hoping next time he's analyzing Duke we get the "Now, roll the tape from last week's halftime show..." from the lead guy, followed by K's rebuttal. Cue the co-anchors cracking up, Gottlieb laughing and hanging his head, followed by his backpedaling rebuttal...

proelitedota
11-28-2009, 12:16 AM
Funniest part of this article:

Yeah, when we get him (Mason) we'll be even more athletic than people don't think we are,'' Smith said.

Yeah, that one was great.

Lord Ash
11-28-2009, 12:27 AM
Oh Nolan, with a classic line. The guy is money:)

brevity
11-28-2009, 12:32 AM
I don't pretend to fully understand all the nuances of the word "athletic" -- is John Daly a more athletic golfer than Michael Jordan? -- but in college basketball it seems to be related to draftable NBA potential. Which is unfortunate, because it has little or nothing to do with actual achievement.

Props to Coach K for his biting remarks, but I'm sort of meh on the discussion as to Duke's place on the athletic spectrum. I'd rather the team's athleticism be underestimated than overestimated.

Jim3k
11-28-2009, 01:51 AM
DBR linked to the Blue Planet highlights of the ASU game. One was of Plumlee's block (highlight No. 2) where he had to duck under the backboard on the fly. Tell me that wasn't an athletic move - first the leap, then the block, then fingertipping the bottom edge of the backboard so he could duck under the board and then arching to land on his feet.

Show that to Gottlieb and see whether he stands by his comment. ("Alarmingly unathletic?" What a Dumbo.)

BlueDevilCorvette!
11-28-2009, 02:56 AM
Well I'll take an alarmingly unathletic win over an alarmingly unathletic loss any day Mr. Gottlieb...."the fat lady has sung, give her a big ole kiss after you take that foot out your mouth"!

JaMarcus Russell
11-28-2009, 03:33 AM
IMO it's code for race. In a related story, check out this week's SI Point After by Phil Taylor.

Are you talking about the Point After this week from Luke Winn http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/luke_winn/11/28/duke.uconn/index.html?

In the column, Winn writes the following and I agree with it entirely.


This is going to continue to be a hot-button topic for Duke, mostly for the reason that "smart" tends to be a euphemism for "unathletic," and "unathletic" tends to be a euphemism for "white."

I can see this being an advantage for this year's team. First, they will play with a chip on their shoulder, and based on the comments from Nolan and Scheyer, it seems like they have already used these comments for motivation. Also, if teams like Kentucky and UConn believe the media talking points about Duke being slow and unathletic, they may come to underestimate us in the tournament.

diesel
11-28-2009, 07:11 AM
"Yeah, when we get him [MP2], we'll be even more athletic than people don't think we are," Nolan Smith said.

Is Nolan going to have to make a choice: between a future career in the NBA and the stand-up comedy circuit? There is life after basketball. But maybe he can continue to hone his stand-up routine through college, the NBA and later possibly being a TV basketball commentator. In the latter respect, he’s already funnier than Gottlieb.

But is this thing over? Can Dougie pull a stunt from the Gottlieb family playbook and like the former Sgt Gottlieb conveniently produce his “notes” many months after the event to assert he didn’t say Duke was “alarmingly unathletic.” But wait: it’s on TV, you say? Well, as we also learned in the lacrosse scandal, cameras can lie.

Duke_Blue_Devil
11-28-2009, 07:32 AM
I know - never. He'll pat himself on the back b/c he picked the game correctly. I hope JWILL punched him in the face during the breaks. What a douchebag. Why does Doug Goubers hate Duke so bad?

Wheat/"/"/"
11-28-2009, 07:43 AM
"Quick, strong, with the ability to rise vertically above the rim".

If a player can not meet that definition, the player is unlikely to be considered "athletic" in the college game.

Race should have nothing to do with it, although I agree for some people ""un-athletic" is code for defining white players.

oldnavy
11-28-2009, 07:56 AM
When I was watching this game, I was thinking unathletic my a#@! We outplayed them on both ends of the court and did not use any tricks to do it. No "Princton" offense or the like, we just out played them... period. They got 2 more fast break points than we did, and 2 more blocked shots. We out hustled them, and out rebounded them. You could say we out "athleted" them.

In Gottlieb's defense, we did look unathletic against ASU, but so did LSU yesterday. That is how they make you look with their style. Doug should know that as he is being paid to be an analyst, but I guess he was so excited that he had something to bust on Duke with that he got ahead of himself...

K's response is classic. I hope Doug's "friends" at ESPN find a way to work it into a segment...

camion
11-28-2009, 07:58 AM
I've just gotta say that I find Dougie to be alarmingly unperceptive, uninformative, unlikeable, uh uncorrect... :)

cspan37421
11-28-2009, 08:48 AM
Are you talking about the Point After this week from Luke Winn http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/luke_winn/11/28/duke.uconn/index.html?

I'll check that out, but no, I really did mean Phil Taylor's column (in the most recent print magazine). Taylor, who is black, points out mostly white-on-white prejudice/racism against white kids who have all the numbers (think: numbers ==> fast ==> athletic) to be great running backs, but don't get D-I offers. Compares it to the prejudice against black QBs from not-all-that-long ago.

BlueintheFace
11-28-2009, 09:28 AM
Duke wins the game pretty handily and what's the story the next day: Duke is Not Athletic

....ridiculous

miramar
11-28-2009, 09:36 AM
When I think of alarmingly unathletic...
http://cache.deadspin.com/sports/douggottlieb.jpg http://www.branchwest.com/images/Doug_Gottlieb_1.jpg

--Jason "we keed, we keed" Evans

do I see a stolen credit card sticking out of his pants pocket?

Houston
11-28-2009, 10:01 AM
I thought the quote by Doug was clever. He made a controversial statement and kept the four letter network in the news. He probably picked up some new fans for all his shows by the Duke Hater Nation. Doug also realized that if he made the statement, race could not be invoked.

As people have previously mentioned, everyone on the team is exceptionally athletic. Wilt Chamberlain was the athletic marvel of his era, but Bill Russell won 10 championships in 11 years. Charles Barkley was an athletic freak and he has as many rings as me!

Great teams have a combination of athleticism and intelligence. If one only needed "athleticism", Calipari teams would win every year.

dukelifer
11-28-2009, 10:16 AM
If one only needed "athleticism", Calipari teams would win every year.

Only to be vacated the next year.

EKU1969
11-28-2009, 11:26 AM
During the Boise State-Nevada football game, the Bottom Line showed Duke 68 Uconn 59, then said ..."after taking a 58-38 lead, Duke gets outscored 21-10." No mention of the ..."after Uconn took a 22-21 lead they got outscored 37-16!" I have never seen anything like that written on the Bottom Line before...ever! Really, wasn't sure of the point as Duke won going away in my book.

TheRose77
11-28-2009, 01:40 PM
Funniest part of this article:

Yeah, when we get him (Mason) we'll be even more athletic than people don't think we are,'' Smith said.
Nolan's tweets are pretty funny, too.

Bluedevil114
11-28-2009, 01:47 PM
To give Doug a little (I do mean little) credit not only did he pick Duke to win because he knew we would find a way, he also did not say Duke is not athletic he said Duke was alarmingly unatheletic at certain spots on the floor. He never said it was the entire team but certain positions.

I am not a Doug fan but at halftime of the ASU game I was very disappointed with the defensive efforts of Brian Z, Lance T and Miles P. I thought they looked slow and were not playing tough. We could not get the loose balls and our offense was stagnant.

I felt much better about the second half strategy and I thought it carried over to Friday at least for the first 28 minutes.

I think this is great because now Duke has some locker room material and will push to prove all wrong and have the last laugh when we are in the Final Four.

Richard Berg
11-28-2009, 01:54 PM
Is Nolan going to have to make a choice: between a future career in the NBA and the stand-up comedy circuit?
Well, he showed some acting chops in the preseason DUI video (doing his best Kate Winslet impression).

Maybe Duhon can give him a shout-out next time he decides to perform in an NYC club.

HDB
11-28-2009, 03:11 PM
I'm sure I won't be popular for saying this, but I actually find Gottleib to be quite entertaining. I don't agree with everything that he says, but I think he he has interesting opinions and I enjoy listening to him (I especially like his show on ESPN radio). On the flipside, even though I loved Jason Williams as a player at Duke, I find him incredibly painful to listen to on the set. He rarely offers any interesting insights and is not very articulate. Just my $0.02.

darthur
11-28-2009, 03:29 PM
I'm sure I won't be popular for saying this, but I actually find Gottleib to be quite entertaining. I don't agree with everything that he says, but I think he he has interesting opinions and I enjoy listening to him (I especially like his show on ESPN radio). On the flipside, even though I loved Jason Williams as a player at Duke, I find him incredibly painful to listen to on the set. He rarely offers any interesting insights and is not very articulate. Just my $0.02.

Yeah to be honest, I don't think Gottlieb's comment was particularly bad. Many people on DBR were saying quite similar things during/after the ASU game with "unathletic" replaced by "slow". If you hope to be a national title contender, it IS alarming if any of your players get shown up consistently by Arizona State. Gottlieb expressed in words what a lot of people even here were thinking - he just did so untactfully.

moonpie23
11-28-2009, 03:35 PM
no, it wasn't bad...and it wasn't racist, it was just snarky....it was an attempt to gouge duke AND bait JW into sticking up for them after we had all witnessed a clunky game against ASU.

i wish the espn announcers could get in the cage together and we could get some vegas odds on them...


i'll take JW being VERY athletic on gotleeb's head....

i'll also take coach knight OR bill walton to flat put Stephen A's freaking LIGHTS OUT!!!!!!

mapei
11-28-2009, 03:41 PM
Am I the only one who wishes K hadn't taken the bait? He should have stopped after saying that Doug should know about being un-athletic. THAT was funny. Going on about "stature" was condescending and petty.

darthur
11-28-2009, 03:43 PM
i'll take JW being VERY athletic on gotleeb's head....

i'll also take coach knight OR bill walton to flat put Stephen A's freaking LIGHTS OUT!!!!!!

Personally, I'd like to see Billy Packer and the coach of St Joes go at it. I remember some rather unkind words being said on national TV when St Joes was a 1-seed and Billy Packer expressed his standard views on the strength of mid-major teams.

jv001
11-28-2009, 03:45 PM
Am I the only one who wishes K hadn't taken the bait? He should have stopped after saying that Doug should know about being un-athletic. THAT was funny. Going on about "stature" was condescending and petty.

Disagree but that's what threads like this are for. Wish Coach K had said more. Don't like Gottlip, Elmore, stuart scott, Digger and several more announcers on all the networks. Go Duke!

Sir Stealth
11-28-2009, 04:26 PM
Am I the only one who wishes K hadn't taken the bait? He should have stopped after saying that Doug should know about being un-athletic. THAT was funny. Going on about "stature" was condescending and petty.

I agree with you. The one line was funny, but piling on too much with it seems kind of beneath Coach K and takes analysis of the team a little too personally, and it's dumb to imply that TV analysts should be judged by how good they were as players.

I'm not a fan of Gottlieb and I did find it annoying that he was trying to call out J-Will as a Duke homer too much during the whole exchange. However, for a guy who is supposed to be so fiercely anti-Duke he went completely the other way in giving ASU no chance against us before that game, then still picked Duke after this unathletic brouhaha.

Espn.com has a "Fresh Take" segment up with Gottlieb that was taped before the UCONN game, and it features Gottlieb picking Kyle Singler as the number one player that he would take in the whole country, because according to Doug, Singler has the most completely developed offensive game. He also picked Coach K as being more likely to win another championship before Roy does.

In an era when Duke hate is rampant, national writers casually misspell Duke in their columns, and our program seems to have image problems that are centered on the the whole supposedly unathletic thing, whatever it means, I think it's understandable for fans to be sensitive to comments like Gottlieb made, especially with the snark that he likes to bring in his on-air personality. However, we can't get too paranoid and sensitive about it, and I wish Coach K wouldn't risk making himself look sensitive about it, funny lines or not.

BlueintheFace
11-28-2009, 04:34 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/10440300/It-might-not-look-like-it,-but-Blue-Devils-have-athletes

Jeff Goodman says the "unathletic" talk is silly

feldspar
11-28-2009, 04:51 PM
I agree with you. The one line was funny, but piling on too much with it seems kind of beneath Coach K and takes analysis of the team a little too personally, and it's dumb to imply that TV analysts should be judged by how good they were as players.

I'm not a fan of Gottlieb and I did find it annoying that he was trying to call out J-Will as a Duke homer too much during the whole exchange. However, for a guy who is supposed to be so fiercely anti-Duke he went completely the other way in giving ASU no chance against us before that game, then still picked Duke after this unathletic brouhaha.

Espn.com has a "Fresh Take" segment up with Gottlieb that was taped before the UCONN game, and it features Gottlieb picking Kyle Singler as the number one player that he would take in the whole country, because according to Doug, Singler has the most completely developed offensive game. He also picked Coach K as being more likely to win another championship before Roy does.

In an era when Duke hate is rampant, national writers casually misspell Duke in their columns, and our program seems to have image problems that are centered on the the whole supposedly unathletic thing, whatever it means, I think it's understandable for fans to be sensitive to comments like Gottlieb made, especially with the snark that he likes to bring in his on-air personality. However, we can't get too paranoid and sensitive about it, and I wish Coach K wouldn't risk making himself look sensitive about it, funny lines or not.

I disagree. I get what K is doing. This is a theme that has been common for Duke over the years, but this year the meme is getting even more air time. He's nipping this one in the bud, because Scheyer himself said it's getting particularly irritating to keep hearing it over and over again. K made an example out of Gottleib, and the team, I'm sure, took notice. K couldn't care less what the media thinks of him. He cares what his team thinks of itself. Its obvious he's been preaching confidence to this team and this is just another way to instill it.

1999ballboy
11-28-2009, 04:59 PM
Am I the only one who wishes K hadn't taken the bait? He should have stopped after saying that Doug should know about being un-athletic. THAT was funny. Going on about "stature" was condescending and petty.

I felt the same way, and the comments certainly aren't going to make ESPN any more favorable towards Duke. However, in defense of Coach K, he was just sticking up for his players, and I think for J-Will as well. He probably felt they had been disrespected and rose to their defense. Though I wish K hadn't gone that far, I do admire the commitment it shows to his kids. This was never about him. If someone were to criticize him as a coach or a person, I don't think Coach K ever would have responded that harshly- at least not to the media. So I would say that, while his words were not the most tactful, they speak volumes about his loyalty.

darthur
11-28-2009, 05:57 PM
I disagree. I get what K is doing. This is a theme that has been common for Duke over the years, but this year the meme is getting even more air time. He's nipping this one in the bud, because Scheyer himself said it's getting particularly irritating to keep hearing it over and over again. K made an example out of Gottleib, and the team, I'm sure, took notice. K couldn't care less what the media thinks of him. He cares what his team thinks of itself. Its obvious he's been preaching confidence to this team and this is just another way to instill it.

This was my take as well. Especially following so closely on the comment about Lance Thomas in the NBA.

jipops
11-28-2009, 07:11 PM
K couldn't care less what the media thinks of him. He cares what his team thinks of itself. Its obvious he's been preaching confidence to this team and this is just another way to instill it.

You're dead on with this.

Jim3k
11-28-2009, 07:23 PM
It never hurts for Gottlieb to have drink some bitter coffee once in a while. He's been getting his gibes in for several years without consequence. You think his colleagues aren't laughing at him? Ha. You bet they are.

As for his prediction that Duke would win and as for JWill's prediction that Ucon would win, I'd take that as scripted and forget it. It is possible that Gottlieb believed it, but more likely they wanted Jason to appear unbiased. So they balanced it with Gottlieb favoring Duke. I bet he choked over saying it. Even so, predictions like that are worth...well...not a thing.

Remember, he still thinks...despite all the objective evidence to the contrary...that he was a better defensive player than Wojo.

UrinalCake
11-29-2009, 07:24 AM
How many white players, either college or NBA, can you think of that you would describe as being "athletic"? I think that label is at least partially a matter of perception.

As for the UCONN game, it doesn't take much athleticism to make a free throw, which was largely where this game was won.

sagegrouse
11-29-2009, 08:00 AM
Am I the only one who wishes K hadn't taken the bait? He should have stopped after saying that Doug should know about being un-athletic. THAT was funny. Going on about "stature" was condescending and petty.

Gottlieb says something idiotic and demeaning, and he deserves a reminder that Doug Gottlieb is a pimple on the body of the media. If he grows up (vide Bill Raftery or Jay Bilas), someone of significance in the sport may actually be willing to grant him an interview

K signaled that he really resented the remark, which he should. Gottlieb cast aspersions on his team, his recruiting, and his coaching. The last thing he should do is enter a discussion with Gottlieb. And it is OK to say so.

And by the way, Gottlieb handed K an opportunity that he will play like a Stradivarius.

sagegrouse

Reddevil
11-29-2009, 08:22 AM
Doug Gottlieb is a pimple on the body of the media.

Just awesome!

Not that it matters but Ali was more athletic than Frazier, and got his jaw broken. I'll take this year's Duke team as that Frazier.:p

slower
11-29-2009, 08:27 AM
Gottlieb says something idiotic and demeaning, and he deserves a reminder that Doug Gottlieb is a pimple on the body of the media. If he grows up (vide Bill Raftery or Jay Bilas), someone of significance in the sport may actually be willing to grant him an interview

K signaled that he really resented the remark, which he should. Gottlieb cast aspersions on his team, his recruiting, and his coaching. The last thing he should do is enter a discussion with Gottlieb. And it is OK to say so.

And by the way, Gottlieb handed K an opportunity that he will play like a Stradivarius.

sagegrouse

These kinds of snarky comments, from Gottlieb or anybody else, become accepted as fact if left unchallenged. That's a major feature of modern media - "perception is reality", right? If somebody keeps speaking negatively about you, and you do nothing to defend yourself, the negative statements eventually become accepted as truth.

I think we've seen, time and time again, that trying to "take the high road" is often not a successful strategy. Look, there will be Duke-haters no matter how K responds. But (IMO) there will be fewer haters if he continues to correct some of the B.S. floating around out there.

And the fact that K can roast him with dry humor is just gravy. K's humor (and Nolan's, or anybody else) will win people over. No need to micro-manage these kinds of situations/responses, but a well-timed response will do wonders.

Devilsfan
11-29-2009, 10:39 AM
What K was saying to all of us, consider the source.

RelativeWays
11-29-2009, 11:28 AM
While it may not have been Gottleib's intent with his comment, the "unathletic" label when used for Duke is definitely a euphemism for alarmingly white. Need proof? Look no further than last years Pitt team, stocked with talented black players, yet the style of offense that Jamie Dixon ran was slow and plodding, and every game they played, whether it was against Syracuse or Little Sisters of the Poor, they always seemed to win by a margin of 8-10 points. They were physical, they outmuscled most everyone, they played a scrappy physical defensive. They didn't do a lot of dribble drives or fast breaks because that was not their personnel strength. Never once were they labeled as unathletic, because a bulk of the team was black. The only other time I remember unathletic being used to describe another CBB team was Bo Ryans 2008 Wisconsin team, that was predominantly white and was also run out of Cameron by Duke, simply because that Duke team was more explosive. It should also be noted that Duke lost to WVU not due to lack of athleticism, but because they were woefully outrebounded by Joe Alexander and everyone else on that team.

_Gary
11-29-2009, 02:04 PM
These kinds of snarky comments, from Gottlieb or anybody else, become accepted as fact if left unchallenged. That's a major feature of modern media - "perception is reality", right? If somebody keeps speaking negatively about you, and you do nothing to defend yourself, the negative statements eventually become accepted as truth.

I think we've seen, time and time again, that trying to "take the high road" is often not a successful strategy. Look, there will be Duke-haters no matter how K responds. But (IMO) there will be fewer haters if he continues to correct some of the B.S. floating around out there.

And the fact that K can roast him with dry humor is just gravy. K's humor (and Nolan's, or anybody else) will win people over. No need to micro-manage these kinds of situations/responses, but a well-timed response will do wonders.

Yes! Yes! Yes! You read my mind about why this needed to be addressed by Coach K. The "I'll take the high road and say nothing" philosophy has NOT worked for Duke at all in recent years. I'm extremely happy K took a shot. I don't want him to do it all the time, but in this case it was very appropriate and well-timed, IMHO.


Gary

mapei
11-29-2009, 06:08 PM
I agree with the need to defend the team and I agree that Gottlieb can be a punk, though like a couple of other posters I think it's somewhat mixed. My only concern is feeding Duke hate and the perception of K in the world. He may not care about that, but I do, because he represents an institution and a community that I care about.

If Roy Williams had made a comment about a nationally known TV reporter to the effect that he had more "stature" than the reporter and thus the reporter should take a hike, this board would still be spewing hate about it. Make a funny remark about Gottlieb himself being "alarmingly unathletic" (I really did like that part) and then defend the substance. Making it more personal is a hard game to win, because the accuser almost always comes off looking worse than the accused.

77devil
11-29-2009, 06:24 PM
Am I the only one who wishes K hadn't taken the bait?

Yes.

But of course it wasn't really bait and K dealt with it perfectly. It's all about supporting his players and letting them know that no matter what the talking heads have to say, K is there for them.

slower
11-29-2009, 06:31 PM
I agree with the need to defend the team and I agree that Gottlieb can be a punk, though like a couple of other posters I think it's somewhat mixed. My only concern is feeding Duke hate and the perception of K in the world. He may not care about that, but I do, because he represents an institution and a community that I care about.

If Roy Williams had made a comment about a nationally known TV reporter to the effect that he had more "stature" than the reporter and thus the reporter should take a hike, this board would still be spewing hate about it. Make a funny remark about Gottlieb himself being "alarmingly unathletic" (I really did like that part) and then defend the substance. Making it more personal is a hard game to win, because the accuser almost always comes off looking worse than the accused.

I understand your concern and your point is valid. No argument there.

It just seems like Duke is the national whipping boy for college basketball. There will ALWAYS be haters, no matter how K acts. As I said earlier, saying nothing in reply or turning the other cheek is okay to a point. But that approach will NOT lessen the hate. I say we make stooges like Gottlieb (and whoever else) think before they go into their parrot routine or make outright ignorant or false comments. Maybe they will actually think about the content of their statements if they realize they will get called on it.

And J-Will has GOT to get over his "Bilas Syndrome". He doesn't have to be a homer like Hubert Davis, but don't just sit there and take it if it's not warranted. If Duke alums try not to offend, while 'Hole alums (and others) try to get their digs at every turn, it will just reinforce the impression that Duke REALLY DOES have something to apologize for. I think Bilas or G-Man would have handled Gottlieb better than Jason did, but maybe he'll rise to the occasion as he gets more comfortable with the gig. Hey, let's get Kenny Dennard (or Laettner) a spot on ESPN!

Now, of course, Gottlieb and Digger and the rest of the haters will be waiting to pile on after EVERY Duke loss. Until Duke places more alums or advocates in the national media, the discourse will be shaped by stooges like Stu Scott. But let's not just roll over and wait for the punch.

Vincetaylor
11-29-2009, 10:18 PM
Duke just needs to do better in March, then we can put all of these doubters to rest. Until then, there isn't much they can do unfortunately since they are always good in the regular season and are known for collapsing post-season.

dukemsu
11-29-2009, 10:35 PM
K had to say something, as much to rebuke Gottlieb's classless bullying of JWill as much as the slam on his current team. Gottlieb was way out of line in going after JWill and needed a public slapping. He certainly won't get one from his employer.

Duke's been "above the fray" for too long. And K is an old Army guy. Don't mess with his guys. Time to fight back. If it seems petty, so what? I'm sure the team appreciated it.

I gave up listening to Gottlieb last year after I got tired of hearing about his kids. That's my cue for giving up on sports talk radio, which means I have given up on most of them. Less them, more sports That's why I also refuse to listen to Cowherd.

dukemsu

Bob Green
11-30-2009, 01:17 AM
Not that it matters but Ali was more athletic than Frazier, and got his jaw broken. I'll take this year's Duke team as that Frazier.:p

Not that it matters but Frazier didn't break Ali's jaw. Ken Norton broke Ali's jaw.

oldnavy
11-30-2009, 07:15 AM
Don't forget when commenting on this, it is not so much what Gottlieb said, but how he said it. He intentionally and emphatically disrespected the Duke players. He not only said it, he said it for effect.

I think, had he mentioned that Duke was unathletic in a casual way or in the flow of a discussion, that Coach K would have let it go, but Gottlieb did it in a way that forced K to respond, and I think he did exactly what he should have done. Score K 1, Gottlieb O.

oldnavy
11-30-2009, 07:16 AM
Not that it matters but Frazier didn't break Ali's jaw. Ken Norton broke Ali's jaw.

Yea! And Ken Norton was even more unathletic than Frazier!!

77devil
11-30-2009, 10:50 AM
Not that it matters but Frazier didn't break Ali's jaw. Ken Norton broke Ali's jaw.

There were lot's of rumors swirling around campus at the time that Ali's was at DUMC to have his jaw repaired. A helicopter that landed on the athletic fields and was met by a limo fueled the speculation.

moonpie23
11-30-2009, 04:36 PM
does anyone know if gotleeb has responded about the whole thing? I'm waiting to hear him crow about picking duke to win...

SoCalDukeFan
11-30-2009, 06:12 PM
Gottlieb's statement was stupid. A few years ago I remember people arguing if golfers were athletes. What do you mean by "athletic?"

As pointed out by others, this is code for race and shows nothing but prejudice. There is a story that when the Yankees got their first black player, Elston Howard, Casey Stengel said something like: "I finally get one, and I get the only one who can't run."

At one time Jason Sehorn was the only white cornerback in the NFL. He was nicknamed Species by his African American teammates for his unusual athleticism. Sehorn thinks that coaches assume whites are less athletic and move them to safety. My guess is that over the years blacks were moved from quarterback because coaches thought they were not smart enough for the position.

In my opinion this years team is that it is not "quick." Wojo was quick. This team is tall. The issue will come if we play a real quick team, ie Villanova last year. Will our height advantage overcome their quickness? I don't know.

SoCal

BlueintheFace
11-30-2009, 06:14 PM
Jay Williams just tweeted that Duke is "alarmingly athletic"... obviously ribbing Gottlieb

Also, news-observer article for those who may have missed it

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/coach-k-jabs-gottlieb-on-athletic-issue

DukieTiger
11-30-2009, 06:42 PM
Gottlieb's statement was stupid. A few years ago I remember people arguing if golfers were athletes. What do you mean by "athletic?"

As pointed out by others, this is code for race and shows nothing but prejudice. There is a story that when the Yankees got their first black player, Elston Howard, Casey Stengel said something like: "I finally get one, and I get the only one who can't run."

At one time Jason Sehorn was the only white cornerback in the NFL. He was nicknamed Species by his African American teammates for his unusual athleticism. Sehorn thinks that coaches assume whites are less athletic and move them to safety. My guess is that over the years blacks were moved from quarterback because coaches thought they were not smart enough for the position.

In my opinion this years team is that it is not "quick." Wojo was quick. This team is tall. The issue will come if we play a real quick team, ie Villanova last year. Will our height advantage overcome their quickness? I don't know.

SoCal

Thank you! You are the first person I have seen to recognize that there are different dimensions of athleticism. Just because Duke is above average athletically doesn't mean we won't have a few games this year where we struggle with other teams' athletes- e.g the quick athletes as mentioned for Villanova, and I would even include Uconn. Scheyer and Singler are both above average athletes, even good athletes. But I am certain that there will be some players this year that those guys have trouble with, due to their quickness.

The difference is that this year, we bring a big advantage in SIZE to counter that quickness. What I hope to see from Duke this year, for the first time in a few years IMO, is for us to get back to making our opponents match up with US, rather than the other way around.

jv001
11-30-2009, 07:51 PM
Thank you! You are the first person I have seen to recognize that there are different dimensions of athleticism. Just because Duke is above average athletically doesn't mean we won't have a few games this year where we struggle with other teams' athletes- e.g the quick athletes as mentioned for Villanova, and I would even include Uconn. Scheyer and Singler are both above average athletes, even good athletes. But I am certain that there will be some players this year that those guys have trouble with, due to their quickness.

The difference is that this year, we bring a big advantage in SIZE to counter that quickness. What I hope to see from Duke this year, for the first time in a few years IMO, is for us to get back to making our opponents match up with US, rather than the other way around.

For the first time in a while, we have the bigs that can make up for our defensive mistakes. Miles, Lance, Mason, Zoubs and at times Kyle can help on defense by blocking shots. There have been times all we could do is try and draw the charge. Not so this year. Welcome back Mason Plumlee. Join in the fun. Go Duke!

Billy Dat
11-30-2009, 08:37 PM
Did anyone actually watch the K post game press conference rather than read the transcript? I only ask because I did not, but it seems to me that K was kind of having fun rather than "taking the bait". I took, from his comments about Gottlieb's stature, that he respects his position at ESPN and that the discussion should take place among talking heads at ESPN rather than having a team's coach try and comment.

Anyway, I, too, am in the minority that like Gottlieb. I think he calls it like he sees it. Besides, I stand by the assertion that I'd rather have the nation underestimate the team and our athleticism...anything to keep a chip on our shoulder.

McGrupp
03-30-2010, 04:56 PM
You guys make some good points, but I think you're kidding yourselves. Athleticism may be difficult to define, but that doesn't make it irrelevant. Sorry, but I can't see an alarmingly unathletic team like Duke winning 30 games, beating Carolina twice (once like a rented mule), winning the ACC season regular season, winning the ACC tournament for the second time in a row (and 9 out of 12 years), and going to the Final Four.

Some of that might have been possible with Gerald Henderson and Elliot Williams in the fold, but without those guys... let's face it. Duke is alarmingly unathletic.

JStuart
03-30-2010, 04:59 PM
You guys make some good points, but I think you're kidding yourselves. Athleticism may be difficult to define, but that doesn't make it irrelevant. Sorry, but I can't see an alarmingly unathletic team like Duke winning 30 games, beating Carolina twice (once like a rented mule), winning the ACC season regular season, winning the ACC tournament for the second time in a row (and 9 out of 12 years), and going to the Final Four.

Some of that might have been possible with Gerald Henderson and Elliot Williams in the fold, but without those guys... let's face it. Duke is alarmingly unathletic.

Post-of-the-Year candidate!

OldPhiKap
03-30-2010, 05:02 PM
You guys make some good points, but I think you're kidding yourselves. Athleticism may be difficult to define, but that doesn't make it irrelevant. Sorry, but I can't see an alarmingly unathletic team like Duke winning 30 games, beating Carolina twice (once like a rented mule), winning the ACC season regular season, winning the ACC tournament for the second time in a row (and 9 out of 12 years), and going to the Final Four.

Some of that might have been possible with Gerald Henderson and Elliot Williams in the fold, but without those guys... let's face it. Duke is alarmingly unathletic.

Is there a feature I'm missing on DBR, where you can type a post but not have it show up for a month or two? ;>)

Jarhead
03-30-2010, 05:09 PM
You guys make some good points, but I think you're kidding yourselves. Athleticism may be difficult to define, but that doesn't make it irrelevant. Sorry, but I can't see an alarmingly unathletic team like Duke winning 30 games, beating Carolina twice (once like a rented mule), winning the ACC season regular season, winning the ACC tournament for the second time in a row (and 9 out of 12 years), and going to the Final Four.

Some of that might have been possible with Gerald Henderson and Elliot Williams in the fold, but without those guys... let's face it. Duke is alarmingly unathletic.


Post-of-the-Year candidate!

That's pretty darn good. Hey, McGrupp, where have you been.You have to be the McGrupp from the old boards, and, IIRC, from Charlotte. If so, glad for your return.

johnb
03-30-2010, 06:07 PM
The funny comment should be the concluding one, but I couldn't resist since I'm not sure I entirely agree.

Of course, everyone on the Duke team is athletic, very athletic. Virtually every division basketball player is extraordinarily athletic, and most are really tall, and we beat just about everybody.

But I have to agree with some comments on "Mike and Mike" from espn radio this morning; both guys commented on how they thought Baylor was going to blow us out at the beginning of the game because of athleticism. I don't think they were using racial codes but just commenting on the sheer speed and jumping ability of their starters versus ours. Our guys are conditioned and disciplined, but we don't have the guys whose athleticism takes your breath away. I'm impressed and proud of the team, and I think we're going to have a great weekend, but no one is going to throw down a Grant Hill dunk the way he did as a freshman, or take over a game like Jason Williams could, or obliterate the paint like Elton. Our guys are absolutely terrific, and 9 of them are at the top run of college basketball, but we don't have the guys who are just above that rung and can be shockingly explosive; fortunately almost all of those guys will watching the final four on television.

MChambers
03-30-2010, 06:28 PM
So who is the most athletic team left? None of these teams are as athletic as Kentucky or Kansas. I'd say Duke looks pretty athletic in this company.

Kewlswim
03-30-2010, 07:30 PM
So who is the most athletic team left? None of these teams are as athletic as Kentucky or Kansas. I'd say Duke looks pretty athletic in this company.

Hi,

I was watching some talking head sports show and now West Virginia is amazingly athletic--particularly when compared to our beloved Devils. The Mountaineers have grown too. I really thought we were taller. Maybe their guards a wee bit taller than both Dre and Nolan? I can't believe they are taller than Zoubs, MP1 and MP2 on the interior. I think they might have a slight height advantage over LT. Can one even trust the heights listed?

GO DUKE!

BD80
03-30-2010, 07:52 PM
Hi,

I was watching some talking head sports show and now West Virginia is amazingly athletic--particularly when compared to our beloved Devils. The Mountaineers have grown too. I really thought we were taller. Maybe their guards a wee bit taller than both Dre and Nolan? I can't believe they are taller than Zoubs, MP1 and MP2 on the interior. I think they might have a slight height advantage over LT. Can one even trust the heights listed?

GO DUKE!

WVU's heights will be back down and maybe even lower after we outrebound them to move on to the championship game.

devildownunder
03-30-2010, 08:12 PM
Race should have nothing to do with it, although I agree for some people ""un-athletic" is code for defining white players.

This is exactly right. If Duke's current players had precisely the same athletic abilities but were all African Americans, we would never hear these charges of being unathletic. It is code for white. Saying so makes people uncomfortable but that's the truth.

There are plenty of non-white D1 ballplayers who can't jump through the roof or display great lateral quickness. How many of them get tagged as "unathletic"?

Welcome2DaSlopes
03-30-2010, 08:19 PM
.
There are plenty of non-white D1 ballplayers who can't jump through the roof or display great lateral quickness. How many of them get tagged as "unathletic"?

They're not all on the same team, nor a top ten team every year, nor do they beat the "athletic" players year after year.


But I get your point

devildownunder
03-30-2010, 08:37 PM
They're not all on the same team, nor a top ten team every year, nor do they beat the "athletic" players year after year.


But I get your point


It doesn't matter where they are, none of them gets that label.

juise
03-30-2010, 09:07 PM
jumping ability ... throw down a Grant Hill dunk the way he did as a freshman

It's hard to disagree with much of your post. I don't think we have many guys who can break down defenses off the dribble with sheer foot speed (which is why I think that Nolan is by far the most irreplacable player on this team). I also note that you were talking starters vs. starters, so what I'm about to say doesn't technically contradict your argument.

However, when it comes to jumping ability, I think that you're really underselling Mason and Miles. I don't think they have the coordination that Grant did as a freshman (something that players like Kyle, Nolan, and Jon have in spades), but I think that they easily have the hops required to throw down a jam like Grant did against Kansas in '91. They may not do it as gracefully, of course. :) We've seen plenty of spectacular misses from Mason this year. I'm looking forward to seeing him finish most of those next year.

greybeard
03-30-2010, 09:16 PM
K had to say something, as much to rebuke Gottlieb's classless bullying of JWill as much as the slam on his current team. Gottlieb was way out of line in going after JWill and needed a public slapping. He certainly won't get one from his employer.dukemsu

YES! Gottlieb sucker punched JWill, took him by surprise. Very, very poor form, and I think you are exactly right, K laid Gottlieb out for it. I played ball with Gottlieb's Dad, who was four or five years ahead of me in high school. You want to talk about a ridiculous shot; if I described it, trust me you'd never believe it. Gottlieb's Dad had a cup of coffee as a big time coach but blew it his first year; a matter of players and money. I think that Gottlieb really knows the game, his old man was a maniac about it, and that he says some insightful things. His problem is he also deliberately says inciteful things for the pop, which to me is a very unattractive quality.

He absolutely got what he deserved from K both because of his sucker punch on a relatively new colleague who forgot more about the game that Gottlieb ever knew and his playing the "unathletic" card too irresponsibly.

BTW, I think JWill is refreshing in his remarks. He speaks clearly and to the point from the perspective of a guy who was known way too much for his "athleticism" rather than intellect. Muscles are useless without a brain, a well functioning one, at that. Duke's players have both, which makes them extremely formidable. JWill graduated Duke in 3 years and his brilliance in being able to chose what he wanted to do and then to execute it reflects a mind that makes Gottlieb look like what he was on that show. Small.

This focus on leaping ability, speed, etc as the only components of athleticism, and the false dichotomy between athletic and nonathletic great players serves no one except ESPN. Think about the tournament games and the spots that ESPN runs over and over, both during games and afterwards. How many aren't dunks?

Dunks of even the most spectacular variety count only three points. How many points does a Zoubek offensive rebound account for when he finds someone at the three-line and executes however uglily a pass that the shooter can step into and be in his motion before a defender can arrive. I'm thinking 5 at a minimum; preventing a possible run-out two, the three off the shot, and the broken spirit of the other team which is priceless.

The ability to know what you want to do and how to do what you want=a great athlete who has the body and brains to really play. That's the list, or at least it should be, imo.