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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 64- Arizona State 53-- Post Game Thread



BlueintheFace
11-25-2009, 10:23 PM
Ugly Win, but a win. Keep it civil.

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-25-2009, 10:25 PM
Next up Uconn, Lets get this win.

miramar
11-25-2009, 10:26 PM
I thought that we would see some improvement from Boateng, but his line was 4 points, 4 rebounds, and 8 turnovers.

IBleedBlue
11-25-2009, 10:27 PM
Now we know how important M2Plumlee is for this team. We need more athleticism and more bodies to absorb all those fouls

proelitedota
11-25-2009, 10:27 PM
Let Dawkins play.

BlueintheFace
11-25-2009, 10:29 PM
stanford up 2 on kentucky with 1:27 to go... just sayin

jacone21
11-25-2009, 10:30 PM
If Duke shoots better and turns the ball over a little less, the game would've looked a lot better. I know.. if a frog had wings.. blah blah. My point is that the boys played pretty awfully, yet still gutted out a win. They will play better. Gotta protect the ball and get better at team D. An elite point will eat tonight's defense alive. Lots of coaching points for K to emphasize.

JaMarcus Russell
11-25-2009, 10:32 PM
Now we know how important M2Plumlee is for this team. We need more athleticism and more bodies to absorb all those fouls

Exactly. It was hard watching Zoubek on both sides of the ball tonight. He did grab some nice rebounds, but I got nervous every time he tried to defend a player past the free throw line. He just doesn't have the foot speed to catch up, and I think Mason would do much better in that part of the game.

Lance was good on the defensive end, but I get equally nervous whenever he decides to put the ball on the floor.

This was an ugly win, but it's not the end of the world. It's what happens when no one is shooting particularly well against a zone defense.

Spam Filter
11-25-2009, 10:34 PM
Against decent competition, we look just like the 08-09 version and the 07-08 version, same weaknesses.

We are not athletic, particularly when it comes to quickness, maybe against an absolute scale we are athletic, but compared to other top flight NCAA basketball teams, we aren't. We don't have a single player that is above average quickness for his position. Maybe Mason can be that guy. But our perimeter is just not that quick.

Poincaré
11-25-2009, 10:35 PM
I didn't see a single dunk in this game from our team. I couldn't believe it, so I went back and checked the play-by-play to confirm. Zero dunks. I am not saying that we need to be dunking all over the place, but the fact that we didn't get a single dunk is pretty worrisome. I understand that part of this is a product of Herb's preferred style. Can anyone shed some light on this matter? On a different note, I really enjoyed Miles' mini block party.

PS: I sure hope no high school kids were watching this game.

DevilHorns
11-25-2009, 10:36 PM
haha i love how the first post says "keep it civil" even though we won the game.

hard to see jwill after the game predict uconn over us, though i think he's predicting correctly if we bring the same game friday. that said, u have to believe k will come out with an adapted plan, and im sure the squad will have learned a lot in these next few days to accomdate the much more athletic uconn squad.

right now im hoping for a johnny d out-coach calipari throwdown. should be ending soon.

as for my duke-uconn prediction, i think we come out ready, and in a way, im happy for this wake-up call.

mapei
11-25-2009, 10:37 PM
I thought we were really late on defense on *many* plays. And, yeah, Duke seems really committed to having their bigs come out and flash to the perimeter. Wasn't working too well night, definitely won't work Friday.

COYS
11-25-2009, 10:37 PM
If Duke shoots better and turns the ball over a little less, the game would've looked a lot better. I know.. if a frog had wings.. blah blah. My point is that the boys played pretty awfully, yet still gutted out a win. They will play better. Gotta protect the ball and get better at team D. An elite point will eat tonight's defense alive. Lots of coaching points for K to emphasize.

I think this is pretty much what we can take away from this game . . . well, besides that Scheyer is really, really good. Basically, we have to shoot better tomorrow, and we will. Singler missed a few interior buckets he'll normally make. And, of course, way too many silly turnovers were committed by everyone, including Scheyer's "risky" move to the basket that resulted in his foot stepping out of bounds. Glad he was finally willing to take some risks, tonight ;). I expect to see a great game on Friday. We'll see if we come out firing on all cylinders.

obsesseddukefan
11-25-2009, 10:39 PM
Got to admit, it was ugly but a win is a win. We just need to protect the ball a little better, and need a little more speed and I think we will be fine against UCONNvicts. Next Play. :D

jipops
11-25-2009, 10:41 PM
Huge props to Sendek's matchup zone. Lucky for us UConn won't be playing it. That D gave us fits, took away a lot of good looks and eliminated looks underneath. Jon played through it very well. ASU also spread the floor exploiting our bigs, Miles saved us with some key blocks. I thought our defense was stellar in the 2nd.

moonpie23
11-25-2009, 10:41 PM
if they bring the same game friday, it's gonna be uconn all day.. tonight was out of sync...

hope they get a better flow....

ChicagoCrazy84
11-25-2009, 10:42 PM
I didn't see a single dunk in this game from our team. I couldn't believe it, so I went back and checked the play-by-play to confirm. Zero dunks. I am not saying that we need to be dunking all over the place, but the fact that we didn't get a single dunk is pretty worrisome. I understand that part of this is a product of Herb's preferred style. Can anyone shed some light on this matter? On a different note, I really enjoyed Miles' mini block party.

PS: I sure hope no high school kids were watching this game.


I agree with both points! I didn't really think about it, but yes, we did not have any dunks. That was partially because we didn't get any fast break points off turnovers and because we didn't get to the basket much. Credit ASU for controlling the game, but man, we looked pretty dead. There was no excitement and it really didn't look like they were having fun out there. I hope we get a little looser against UCONN, otheriwse, we will get run out of the gym.

dukelifer
11-25-2009, 10:43 PM
Well- Duke did not play well but they won. Lets not forget that this was a very late game and away from home for the first time. While there was not really a time that ASU looked like they might win, they did control the flow of the game for long stretches. Duke obviously did not shoot well- particularly Singler- and that helped ASU. But eventually Duke got into a little groove. It was a little frustrating that Duke could not establish much inside except off of misses. Perhaps MP2 can give this presence. But credit ASU - they played hard and deliberate. Herb has done this before against Duke. I thought Dawkins played well when out there- showing confidence on those deep threes. The kid is not shy and Duke will need his offense. Zoubek had some good minutes- despite many fouls and Scheyer really played well throughout. Not sure one can extrapolate much, though. We will learn more about this team when they play against UConn. Duke will need to find a way to stop their penetration and shoot much, much better to win. Singler needs to have a great game if Duke is to win. I expect Duke to play better than tonight but this will be a very tough test.

roywhite
11-25-2009, 10:44 PM
Some positives---defense was better in the second half..did not allow drives resulting in lay-ups, rebounds and loose balls started going to Duke in 2nd half, Dawkins is a weapon. Really solid game by Jon Scheyer and spurts by Nolan and Kyle.

Get well soon, Mason. Could be a big upgrade.

COYS
11-25-2009, 10:44 PM
Against decent competition, we look just like the 08-09 version and the 07-08 version, same weaknesses.

We are not athletic, particularly when it comes to quickness, maybe against an absolute scale we are athletic, but compared to other top flight NCAA basketball teams, we aren't. We don't have a single player that is above average quickness for his position. Maybe Mason can be that guy. But our perimeter is just not that quick.

Geez, yeah, we're so dang slow. We were so slow on defense that ASU shredded us to the tune of 39% shooting. Ok, so Zoubs and Miles got caught out on the perimeter a few times and got beat by quick guards. That happens when we play defense like we did tonight (a little disorganized, at times). Even on those plays, ASU needed a pick and roll to get the action going. Nolan, Scheyer, Dawkins, and even Singler did great jobs prevented their defenders from blowing by. Miles' rotations were slow not for lack of quickness, but from inexperience. This game showed how much he still has to learn. We also missed a lot of chippies and wide open threes. We have a lot of work to do. We have a lot of new pieces working this season and it will take time before things click all the time, but team quickness is far from our biggest concern.

Saratoga2
11-25-2009, 10:45 PM
It's a little unwise to make comments in the immediate aftermath of a game, but in general I can say the following:

1. We had trouble dealing with the matchup zone in addition to being tight. Singler was having big trouble getting untracked. I didn't think he was squaring up on his shots in the first half.

2. When we bring out bigs out to the top of the key or further to help prevent penetration, they often have difficulty getting back. Zoubek was exposed and his lack of athleticism led to fouls and poor positioning for rebounds.

3. Miles shows more athleticism and his main issue was his tendency to pickup cheap reach around fouls.

4. Another game where Lance seemed to disappear out there. He did a few good things but I doubt he had a block and darn few rebounds. Without looking at the stats, it is hard to tell. Maybe Kelly would have done better, but the coach must not have thought that to be the case.

5. Scheyer had a good game, as did Smith. I am glad we don't have to talk about Scheyers zero turnovers anymore. He had two but both were close calls. Foot on the line and a pass where the receiver didn/t come to the ball.

In summary, we didn't look like a team that has the athleticism in the front court that can compete with UCONN. They have a lot of speed and skill at all positions while we have issues inside. Mason would help, but unfortunately, he won't be there.

trey
11-25-2009, 10:45 PM
This team is still a work in progress. It's VERY early in the season. They played poorly tonight, but I'm not worried. If they're playing like this in January/February, I might start to worry. Even when Mason comes back, there will be an adjustment period. For the last few seasons we've looked good early. I'd rather be a good team later in the year.

That being said, the last team I want to lose to is uCon...ugh. Let's hope the guys can play (shoot, defend) much, much better on Friday.

GO DUKE!

gep
11-25-2009, 10:57 PM
That being said, the last team I want to lose to is uCon...ugh. Let's hope the guys can play (shoot, defend) much, much better on Friday.

GO DUKE!

I agree... I just don't like Ucon. Bright side (glass half-full)... this was Duke's first "late" game... first time in MSG. They'll be more comfortable on Friday... already played a game in MSG, "living" in NYC, etc... Coach K will make adjustments based on Ucon's game against LSU... Duke will be fine :)

phaedrus
11-25-2009, 11:01 PM
How about these stats?

Smith: 40 minutes
Singler: 40 minutes
Scheyer: 40 minutes

I hate to reignite the always-simmering depth/minute distribution debate, but I don't remember ever seeing three guys on the same team play an entire game before. Wonder how many times it'll happen this season?

ivydevil
11-25-2009, 11:02 PM
And just when I was starting to enjoy blowout games...That was closer than expected, but maybe we were just fooling UConn into taking it a little easier against us. :cool:

DukeUsul
11-25-2009, 11:03 PM
Is this the thread where we should complain about how stall ball never works?

striker219
11-25-2009, 11:07 PM
5. Scheyer had a good game, as did Smith. I am glad we don't have to talk about Scheyers zero turnovers anymore. He had two but both were close calls. Foot on the line and a pass where the receiver didn/t come to the ball.

I like your "glass is half full" attitude, but I personally am done with Scheyer. Any guard that can't maintain an assist/turnover ratio of at least infinite is dead to me. I mean come on, 13.5:1 on the season, seriously? What is that garbage?

Ugly win but a win, I'll take it. Going to need to see a little more excitement against UConN though.

BlueintheFace
11-25-2009, 11:07 PM
Thoughts:

Pick n' Roll: Let's be honest here. Duke had a huuuuge problem guarding the high screen and roll tonight (though the roll rarely hurt us). ASU ran Glasser off of one or two high screens and pushed for the switch. He then either came off the screen looking for a player flying in from the corner or attacked the mismatch (Plumlee or Zou) and got to the hoop or foul. Glasser is a heck of a player and he punished us on the screen and roll for much of the game.

What could Duke do? Fight through screens better... give him the three.... or go small. Well, we did a bit of all of this and stopped the screen and roll in the second half. It took K awhile to instruct on this, but it happened and it worked for the most part.

Plumlee: Made some freshman mistakes to be sure. He can't go through his man's arm on the entry pass. I think he will learn his lesson. He realized that he could play positional defense on Boateng late and succeeded. The truth is, tonight we saw how he still has a good deal of work to do on positioning (on defense and on the boards). He also needs to work on staying open in the post for more than a split second. Again.. positioning. This will take some time. Still, that block....Ohhhh my. I am glad he didn't hurt his head... that was close.

Kyle Singler: He was pushing... all night long. His footwork coming off of screens was wrong. He was forcing shots off the drive with open men in the corners. He just had an off day. We all know what he can do, so lets not forget that. It is also important to note that with about 13 minutes left K very very obviously ran isolation plays for Kyle multiple times and it worked. That is when we broke it open.

Andre Dawkins: His defense was above average for much of the games (a few mistakes but nothing terrible). I think he is slowly earning more time and this is certainly a good thing IMO.

Lance Thomas: As many of you know, I have been a huge defender of LT. I am still on that boat, but he is making a little bit harder for me. I like him defensively at the top of the zone, but his man-to-man defense is just not what K is saying it is early on this season IMO. I feel like I am missing something... he can not guard the one. I don't know.

Offensive Adjustments: The biggest thing we did was run 2 or 3 set plays for Jon in the second half (the curl at the elbow specifically) and Iso Kyle. I would have liked to see Kyle and/or Kelly in the high post a lot more when struggling with the junk. Frankly I thought this was a great game for Kelly. Just one man's opinion.

Jon Scheyer: Stud. The streak is over though... good run. a/to is now 29/1 I believe.

Sidenote- Don't argue that we don't go inside enough...ok people? We tried and our posts really struggled to establish and hold position.

-bdbd
11-25-2009, 11:08 PM
If Duke shoots better and turns the ball over a little less, the game would've looked a lot better. I know.. if a frog had wings.. blah blah. My point is that the boys played pretty awfully, yet still gutted out a win. They will play better. Gotta protect the ball and get better at team D. An elite point will eat tonight's defense alive. Lots of coaching points for K to emphasize.

Before everyone starts sighing, fretting, frowning and gnashing their teeth over this game, a quick reminder: we won, and we moved on. The ugliness of this win will have ZERO impact on Friday. We start at 0 - 0 again. I look for the guys to bounce back, after a disappointing performance, with a bit of purpose and energy Friday. Look for it. Practice tomorrow likely won't be fun.

Yes, it wasn't a great show, but we did miss a lot of open threes that we'd worked hard to open up. If just a few of those went down in the first half it would have been a whole different game. Yes, UCONNvicts played with some good "athleticism" (whatever that means -- I assume we're talking quickness to the ball, slashing aggressiveness on D and O, and assertive rebounding), but we have some advantages over them too. And don't forget that this was by far their best game of the season. This same team has played some horrible games against much lesser opponents already this season.

I expect a different, more aggressive and better shooting Duke squad out there on Friday.

Aside: It was funny immediately after the game to see Jayson Williams hemming and hawing before picking U-CON ("I like their athletic style.") and Gotleib, of all people, picking Duke, though still getting an indirect dig in on K in the process ("I'm going with Duke even though... (they didn't show it tonight)...They should be the better team.... I just don't get some of the things this team tries to do..."). Also earlier he was dercying the "utter lack of athleticism at some key positions for Duke."

Sigh.


P.S. Boy do I want to beat U-CON Friday. We owe them.

gep
11-25-2009, 11:12 PM
P.S. Boy do I want to beat U-CON Friday. We owe them.

This is so true for me... I only go back to 1999... but if so, "3 times the charm", right? :D

CLW
11-25-2009, 11:15 PM
Against decent competition, we look just like the 08-09 version and the 07-08 version, same weaknesses.

We are not athletic, particularly when it comes to quickness, maybe against an absolute scale we are athletic, but compared to other top flight NCAA basketball teams, we aren't. We don't have a single player that is above average quickness for his position. Maybe Mason can be that guy. But our perimeter is just not that quick.

Exactly. The blue print/secret (if you could call it that) is now out in the open. Spread out our big/slow team and just use pick and rolls and drive to the rim all game long.

I know ASU is supposed to be a good 3 point shooting team but IMO I think we need to play a TON of zone this season particularly against teams that are much quicker/more athletic than we are.

I think all the talk of MP2 being a savior are far overblown.

roywhite
11-25-2009, 11:16 PM
How about these stats?

Smith: 40 minutes
Singler: 40 minutes
Scheyer: 40 minutes

I hate to reignite the always-simmering depth/minute distribution debate, but I don't remember ever seeing three guys on the same team play an entire game before. Wonder how many times it'll happen this season?

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204840689

Yeah, I was trying to think if one of those guys came out, but the official boxscore confirms your point.

Looks like Eric Boateng finally helped Duke win a game.

striker219
11-25-2009, 11:17 PM
I think all the talk of MP2 being a savior are far overblown.

I think savior is too strong a word to use, but put him in place of Zoubek tonight and you have a totally different game. Or LT for much of the game, for that matter.

77devil
11-25-2009, 11:19 PM
If Duke shoots better and turns the ball over a little less, the game would've looked a lot better. .
The glaring deficiencies in the post would still have been readily apparent. Z has made little or no progress and MP1 still is not ready for prime time. I haven't seen MP2 and will be pleasantly surprised if he contributes meaningfully.

UConn is long, quick, and athletic but also a bit sloppy with the ball and lazy at times on D. The game on Friday should be a great early season test. The Devils better bring their A game.

roywhite
11-25-2009, 11:20 PM
Exactly. The blue print/secret (if you could call it that) is now out in the open. Spread out our big/slow team and just use pick and rolls and drive to the rim all game long.


Do you realize that Duke held Arizona State to 2 FG's in the last 12 or 13 minutes? After some adjustments, the second half defense was good.

airowe
11-25-2009, 11:22 PM
I think all the talk of MP2 being a savior are far overblown.

Who said he was a savior? We don't need much from MP2.

CLW
11-25-2009, 11:23 PM
Do you realize that Duke held Arizona State to 2 FG's in the last 12 or 13 minutes? After some adjustments, the second half defense was good.

Yes. However, this was Arizona State (picked to finish 7th in a weak conference). A more skilled/more athletic/better team (see Nova game from last year) would more likely than not have a field day with Duke the way they played tonight.

Kimist
11-25-2009, 11:23 PM
Is it just me perhaps not having a good day, or is listening to Vitale doing a basketball game somewhat akin to waterboarding?

He rambles, he talks about anything he can think of other than the game at hand, and he is boring.

It would be nice if I could figure out how to synch Bob Harris and hear some real game commentary. Otherwise I might find it preferable just to mute the sound and watch the game in silence to avoid hearing Dickie V ramble.

k

gep
11-25-2009, 11:24 PM
boxscore...



http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204840689
Looks like Eric Boateng finally helped Duke win a game.

Respectfully... I don't think of Eric in that manner...:)

jv001
11-25-2009, 11:24 PM
Good game....Jon, Andre, Nolan
Avg game......Miles, Kelly,
below avg game... Lance, Brian, Kyle
Sure would like to know how Vegas gets the odds so close on these games. Everyone including me thought that this game would be a blow out. Go Duke!

striker219
11-25-2009, 11:26 PM
Is it just me perhaps not having a good day, or is listening to Vitale doing a basketball game somewhat akin to waterboarding?

He rambles, he talks about anything he can think of other than the game at hand, and he is boring.

It would be nice if I could figure out how to synch Bob Harris and hear some real game commentary. Otherwise I might find it preferable just to mute the sound and watch the game in silence to avoid hearing Dickie V ramble.

k

If there is a bright side to the last few years as far as the rivalry is concerned, it's that Vitale has been a bigger cheerleader for Carolina than for Duke.

Kane
11-25-2009, 11:28 PM
You're kidding . . . Miles Plumlee is much improved over last year and that's it. The only positive from this game other than we won and no one was injured. If this same Duke team shows up against UCONN we're baby seals ;-)

dukeballer2294
11-25-2009, 11:40 PM
does anybody think that this below average performance was a fluke? im not saying were #1 but when we essentially live and die by the 3 we sometimes play like this. it was also our first decent test, with uconn being our first true test, and this doesnt get me worried. first game away from cameron and its early. dont freak 5 games into a 5-0 season

77devil
11-25-2009, 11:43 PM
Do you realize that Duke held Arizona State to 2 FG's in the last 12 or 13 minutes? After some adjustments, the second half defense was good.

True, but the guys didn't exactly put them away either when up 12 and failing to score in 3 trips down the floor, and not a single second chance on those possessions either.

Wildling
11-25-2009, 11:44 PM
Geez, yeah, we're so dang slow. We were so slow on defense that ASU shredded us to the tune of 39% shooting. Ok, so Zoubs and Miles got caught out on the perimeter a few times and got beat by quick guards. That happens when we play defense like we did tonight (a little disorganized, at times). Even on those plays, ASU needed a pick and roll to get the action going. Nolan, Scheyer, Dawkins, and even Singler did great jobs prevented their defenders from blowing by. Miles' rotations were slow not for lack of quickness, but from inexperience. This game showed how much he still has to learn. We also missed a lot of chippies and wide open threes. We have a lot of work to do. We have a lot of new pieces working this season and it will take time before things click all the time, but team quickness is far from our biggest concern.

This is spot on in my opinion. Well said COYS.

Coach K made the defensive adjustments at halftime, and while they didn't execute perfectly, they understood why and where they were getting beat defensively.

This means to me they understand their weaknesses, they are coach-able, and intelligent enough to understand what was happening to them. This is a real positive in my book.

While it was an ugly win, the 2nd half showed me this team has what it takes to be a very good team down the road. I am excited about this team and they way it played in the 2nd half. Gutsy effort.

airowe
11-25-2009, 11:50 PM
You're kidding . . . Miles Plumlee is much improved over last year and that's it. The only positive from this game other than we won and no one was injured. If this same Duke team shows up against UCONN we're baby seals ;-)

We held them to 15% 3 Pt. Shooting and 38% from the field. That's a positive.

Poincaré
11-25-2009, 11:59 PM
Thoughts:
Plumlee: Made some freshman mistakes to be sure. He can't go through his man's arm on the entry pass. I think he will learn his lesson. He realized that he could play positional defense on Boateng late and succeeded. The truth is, tonight we saw how he still has a good deal of work to do on positioning (on defense and on the boards). He also needs to work on staying open in the post for more than a split second. Again.. positioning. This will take some time. Still, that block....Ohhhh my. I am glad he didn't hurt his head... that was close.
...
Sidenote- Don't argue that we don't go inside enough...ok people? We tried and our posts really struggled to establish and hold position.

Not to be a nitpick, but the Plumlee who played tonight was the Eldest (i.e., the soph)... I agree that he did make freshman mistakes. However, he also seems to be our only post player with potential for near-term development at the moment (Since we haven't seen Mason play yet).

Also, I think may be the sentiment is that if we don't have even one post player who can establish and hold position, then we are in trouble due to our thin (albeit talented) backcourt.

SCMatt33
11-26-2009, 12:03 AM
We held them to 15% 3 Pt. Shooting and 38% from the field. That's a positive.

I'm not so sure about that. Yes, it always good to hold a team to those numbers, but I think it says more about ASU's talent level than our defense for the night. I recall a lot of missed open looks from the outside and they missed several layups. At the end of the day, we we're able to win solely because we are more talented. As for the minutes, I didn't mind seeing Nolan, Kyle, and Jon play the whole game, because they're going to need to play 35-40 minutes the entire year.

Greg_Newton
11-26-2009, 12:06 AM
Woof.

Ryan Kelly... plays 5 minutes?

Miles Plumlee... plays 17 minutes?

S, S & S play 40 minutes... against ASU... in NOVEMBER?

Sure Miles was in some foul trouble, but he could have easily gotten 5-10 more minutes. And I strongly disagree that we should not have looked to the post more. Especially in the 2nd half, Miles was consistently getting good position on his defender and presenting passers with a target... they just never even looked at him. It's like S/S/S aren't used to having an offensive post option, so they don't even think about it. Perhaps if Kelly had played more, we would have seen some more post entry passes, which leads me to:

I just fail to comprehend how Kelly and MP1 play a combined 22 minutes in this game, while at the same time we fail to give any of the big 3 a single breather. If we're trying to prove our doubters correct and peak early due to drained players and a low ceiling, then that's the way to go. However, if we want to build a dangerous team that exploits its strengths, we NEED them to be major factors. It's November, and they've both been very effective so far.

I just hope this is some kind of test or coaching strategy and not a recurring theme. As much as an *** as Gottlieb was tonight, I have to agree with him to some extent - I just don't understand some of the things we did tonight.

airowe
11-26-2009, 12:17 AM
I'm not so sure about that. Yes, it always good to hold a team to those numbers, but I think it says more about ASU's talent level than our defense for the night. I recall a lot of missed open looks from the outside and they missed several layups.

They shoot 49.4% from 3 point range and made one non-bank three point shot. ONE, non-lucky three point shot. Tonight they shot 2-13 from beyond the arc. Again, one of those was a bank shot.

Neals384
11-26-2009, 12:27 AM
Thoughts:

Pick n' Roll: Let's be honest here. Duke had a huuuuge problem guarding the high screen and roll tonight (though the roll rarely hurt us). ASU ran Glasser off of one or two high screens and pushed for the switch. He then either came off the screen looking for a player flying in from the corner or attacked the mismatch (Plumlee or Zou) and got to the hoop or foul. Glasser is a heck of a player and he punished us on the screen and roll for much of the game.

What could Duke do? Fight through screens better... give him the three.... or go small. Well, we did a bit of all of this and stopped the screen and roll in the second half. It took K awhile to instruct on this, but it happened and it worked for the most part.



Agree. I lost track of the number of times Miles or Zoubs followed Boat waay out to the 3 pt line. And they actually seemed as if they wanted to make the switch. And out of position for guarding the little guy, who scored on them at will. This needs a lot of work, or maybe we should be playing zone.

Jim3k
11-26-2009, 12:57 AM
No need to be bellyachin' over this game. Herb's teams always make things ugly. They play hard and his zone concepts are outstanding -- the collapsing stuff jams the middle very well.

Once Duke figured out how to deal with it, late in the first half, it started going our way. Lockett played his heart out in a terrific first half. But he ran out of gas. Without his hot streak, Duke is in the lead the whole way. Many of his shots were of the circus variety. He played out of his mind -- but that was true defensively as well, where he was a bit out of control and got into serious foul trouble.

Sendek's zone tries to do one other thing -- stop the the treys. And they did that, much like Villanova did last spring. We've done it to other teams and ASU did it to us tonight. We were only 4 for 18 from beyond the line. Not every team will be able to do that to us.

One other thing slowed us in the first half -- Zoubs had some footwork and ball handling problems that I thought he had overcome. (Don't bring the ball down Brian.) That cost us about 3 possessions. In the second half, he played much better and those rebs stayed with us. We out-rebounded them both offensively and defensively. Between Zoubek and Miles we picked up 13 rebs, of which 5 were offensive. They should have been better pointwise, but the main problem was Miles and Zoubs not hitting FTs like they should. Miles was 2 for 5 and Zoubs 1 for 2. Zoubs is a very good FT shooter and Miles is better than he showed. I think they also stopped Boateng who simply cannot deal with centers better than he. Four points and 4 rebs in 31 minutes... He's not terrific, but he did nothing against our guys. I think against smaller/fewer bigs, he does better.

Truthfully, I don't think this game was that far from becoming a blowout. Four more FTs from our centers and we're up 15, two more treys and we're up 21.

We held them without a field goal for (I think) about 8 minutes in the second half. And they only shot 28% from the floor in that half.

So while it was not pretty, it was strong. Yet we should give some credit to Herb's team. The Sun Devils played hard and made us work to win. His team may have been picked 7th in the Pac-10, but I guarantee they are better than that. Maybe top 4 or 5. That team will see post-season play if it remains healthy.

Anyway, no need to think that the Connvicts will have an easy time with us. I think we will simply out-tough them. Playing pretty is unimportant so long as we win.

GTHC

OldSchool
11-26-2009, 01:15 AM
Folks, the mediocre play in much of the game tonight was due to mental lapses, not athletic inferiority to ASU.

Indeed, in my opinion Nolan, Kyle and Miles are really elite level athletes among D1 basketball players. (As I type this that play of Miles's when he ran after an ASU player, rejected his shot from behind and then ducked his head as he went flying under the rim comes to mind.)

It seemed to me like three-quarters of the team was just playing in a daze for some reason tonight, particularly on the defensive side. Not recognizing what ASU was trying to run, not getting into the right position quickly enough, not rotating quickly enough.

And all of the dumb, silly fouls by our bigs! The problems we had tonight start and end in the mental space.

And that will determine how we do against UConn, not how we would fare in a decathlon against those guys. If we come out to play razor-sharp mentally, we win. If our guys are in a tryptophan hangover, we will be caught out in silly fouls and with our heads turned the wrong way on perimeter flashes as UConn strolls to the hoop.

JaMarcus Russell
11-26-2009, 01:24 AM
Folks, the mediocre play in much of the game tonight was due to mental lapses, not athletic inferiority to ASU.

It seemed to me like three-quarters of the team was just playing in a daze for some reason tonight, particularly on the defensive side. Not recognizing what ASU was trying to run, not getting into the right position quickly enough, not rotating quickly enough.

And all of the dumb, silly fouls by our bigs! The problems we had tonight start and end in the mental space.

And that will determine how we do against UConn, not how we would fare in a decathlon against those guys. If we come out to play razor-sharp mentally, we win. If our guys are in a tryptophan hangover, we will be caught out in silly fouls and with our heads turned the wrong way on perimeter flashes as UConn strolls to the hoop.

I couldn't agree any more. I thought that Zoubek and Miles both had some very bad mental lapses. Miles picked up 2 unnecessary fouls while trying to aggressively defend a turnover machine who would have handed the ball over with no struggle a few seconds later. Zoubek just had a very poor performance tonight outside of his rebounding. I was disappointed to see him continue to get playing time after mental mistakes, while Kelly didn't see much action.

The one thing that confused me was how Zoubek repeatedly followed his man to the 3-point area, and how Coach K seemingly wanted him to continue doing that.:confused:

BlueDevilCorvette!
11-26-2009, 01:30 AM
Wow, tonight it looked like Duke was playing in quicksand with concrete Nike's on. Hey, my only 2 cents about the game is why did they often overlook Dawkins? At one point he was screaming for the ball in the corner but Kyle didn't get it to him. Either way, I can see good things coming as a result of this game. I won't be so quick to say that UConn will have their way with Duke. I think Duke team leaders will provide the stability and energy to get us the victory Friday.

1999ballboy
11-26-2009, 02:55 AM
A few things.

-The fouls by our bigs are the biggest concern to me here. The problem of bigs getting beaten on the outside was corrected in the second half. Our poor shooting improved in the second half. The fouls were the only thing that were bad the whole time. I thought Zoubek got called for a couple of ticky-tack fouls (and at least one time, he was on the wrong side of a no-call on the offensive glass), but Miles has really got to stop making those fouls if he's gonna keep starting at the 5 this year. And I think he will. Every other aspect of his game has improved tremendously, and those fouls were just mental lapses.

-Our team's defense as a whole consistently looked better when Lance was in the game. I'd like to see his +/- stats on this game.

-That offensive foul call on Nolan was one of the worst calls I've ever seen, or at least it looked that way on TV.

-I am in agreement with all those who said they'd like to see Ryan get more minutes. I hope his minutes don't totally disappear when Mason comes back.

-K went small a couple of times- notably in the closing minutes. I never really bought the claim that Kyle wouldn't play any 4 this year, and it looks like he will, at least a little. Which I don't think is a bad thing, as long as it isn't his regular position. Which it won't be.

-Getting Lockett in foul trouble might have been the best thing we did that game. That guy was flat out scaring me in the early minutes.

NYC Duke Fan
11-26-2009, 03:27 AM
Not to be a nitpick, but the Plumlee who played tonight was the Eldest (i.e., the soph)... I agree that he did make freshman mistakes. However, he also seems to be our only post player with potential for near-term development at the moment (Since we haven't seen Mason play yet).

Also, I think may be the sentiment is that if we don't have even one post player who can establish and hold position, then we are in trouble due to our thin (albeit talented) backcourt.

I remember when Mason committed to Duke, his father said that he is not a back to the basket post player...has that changed ? I don't think that it has and Mason when he is ready will not be the answer in the post.

darthur
11-26-2009, 03:29 AM
#1 Kansas vs unranked Memphis: 57 - 55
#2 Michigan State vs unranked Gonzaga: 75 - 71
#4 Villanova vs unranked George Mason: 69 - 68
#5 Kentucky vs unranked Miami Ohio: 72 - 70

Bad games... they happen.

Kane
11-26-2009, 05:00 AM
Duke's 3 pt % 22.2, Smith 0 for 6 and Singler 1 for 5 . . . on the playground in the un-PC world where players "sweat and swear" they're called 'bricks." (Singler missed 8 of his first 9 shots - perhaps worst game of his career?) Whom among us can "spin" this glass to half full?

Total pt. production from the bigs 13 (that needs to double) otherwise, we're still the perimeter oriented team from years past with some tall guys on the team. Going inside FIRST then kicking it back out when required may help our 3 pt % . . . let's hope so at least!

BTW a "brick" is a poor shot so named for sounding and looking as though one tossed an actual brick toward or onto the rim and it lands with a "clunk" or a "clank" sound, a.k.a. "boing."

PhillyDuke
11-26-2009, 06:15 AM
Coach K has to play Kelly more than five minutes, or he'll NEVER reach is potential. That's the one thing I hate about the coach; he plays too short a bench. This is the reason why we have McD's all-americans sitting who don't turn into anything, which is a turn-off to high school players.

MarkD83
11-26-2009, 06:32 AM
How about these stats?

Smith: 40 minutes
Singler: 40 minutes
Scheyer: 40 minutes

I hate to reignite the always-simmering depth/minute distribution debate, but I don't remember ever seeing three guys on the same team play an entire game before. Wonder how many times it'll happen this season?

I have not read the whole thread but I had to make a comment here.

Matchups always dictate minutes played. We have only 4 perimeter players this year and we were playign against a zone. That means I would have been surprised if these three did not get 35+ minutes each for this game. The only way they get less is if we saw lineups with only one of them and four bigs. Against a zone that won't work.

ReformedAggie
11-26-2009, 06:58 AM
In the old Pac 10 we used to chant "AS WHO"... just saying. I hated this game and it took two Snickers and a bag of popcorn to get through it. Sometimes also I had to put a pillow in my mouth to keep from screaming. (Yes Dr. oral fixation issues.) If this is Duke, it's going be a short season.

Faison1
11-26-2009, 07:02 AM
Did Daddy not hug Gotlieb enough when he was a child? Man, that guy is bitter!

My heart goes out to Jay-Will. I don't see that match-up continuing very much longer, seeing as how Jay is such a nice guy, and Doug is quite the opposite. Doug seems to bait Jay quite a bit, and Jay seems to agree with him a lot, from what limited time I watched.

As an aside, I was happy Duke won, but felt a bit empty afterwards. Kelly not playing, shortened bench, few answers down low, etc, etc, etc. Let's hope it was just a bad game......

camion
11-26-2009, 07:14 AM
If this is the way every game is going to be,
if the big three are going to play 40 minutes in every game,
if we are see a slowdown and matchup zone in every game,
if Zoubek fouls out of every game,
if Singler is frustrated in every game,
if Kelly only plays five minutes in every game,
if we have trouble with high picks every game,
if Sheyer starts having turnovers in every game,
if our threes don't fall in every game,
if Miles Plumlee gets into foul trouble in every game,
if Andre Dawkins sees limited action in every game,
if Mason Plumlee is in street clothes for every game,
it's going to be a long season.

If the score ends up like this in every game we'll be undefeated national champions.

Folks, it's just one game. Every game is different and some will be better; some will be worse, but they'll all be different. Enjoy the season. I know I will.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-26-2009, 07:19 AM
Happy Thanksgiving....

Both teams I saw last night looked weak with interior play.

Miles Plumlee is going to be a good player. A really good player. He just has a little ways to go....

Other than him, Duke struggles to get any above average play from the inside positions. The horses are just not there.

Scheyer was the best player on the floor, no question.

Smith was Duke's quickest player, but was hesitant to use his gift. Not sure why.

I liked Dawkin's focus and stroke. Very good, comfortable ealy season game for the freshman.

I have yet to see Mason Plumlee play, but we know 9 out of 10 freshmen would struggle to impact the big games that are on the horizon. He better be the second coming of Hansbrough if Duke thinks they will get past the sweet sixteen this year.

Those black socks are awful. Duke is not an exceptionally quick team, but those socks make the team look even slower. Somebody might want to reconsider that look....

elvis14
11-26-2009, 07:37 AM
Got up this morning after watching Duke win a tough game last night. Just finished reading the post-games posts on here and frankly I'm more worried about you guys than I am about our favorite basketball team. We won the game! Our guys did NOT play poorly. Give some credit to ASU for playing well, please. We played well (not our best). We shot poorly missing lots of open 3's. We shoot a little better and we blowing this team out. Also, lets not forget that we used stall ball effectively to end any hope of an ASU comeback. This kept the game a little closer at the end. Just because we didn't blow out an unranked team doesn't mean we didn't play well. Looking at the numbers posted, our defense played pretty well. I really enjoyed watching our team get challenged, have some struggles (shooting, high pick and roll) and persevere. They played through and raised up to the challenge. That was good stuff and more fun to watch than another blowout over Peace or Merideth.


Exactly. It was hard watching Zoubek on both sides of the ball tonight. He did grab some nice rebounds, but I got nervous every time he tried to defend a player past the free throw line. He just doesn't have the foot speed to catch up, and I think Mason would do much better in that part of the game.

Lance was good on the defensive end, but I get equally nervous whenever he decides to put the ball on the floor.

This was an ugly win, but it's not the end of the world. It's what happens when no one is shooting particularly well against a zone defense.

You are being too hard on Z and not hard enough on Lance. Z played pretty well in the second half.


I thought we were really late on defense on *many* plays. And, yeah, Duke seems really committed to having their bigs come out and flash to the perimeter. Wasn't working too well night, definitely won't work Friday.

I was a bit surprised at just how far out Z and MP1 were flashing out on the pick and roll. I think Miles will improve his timing with this and will help improve our defense against the high pick and roll. As much as I like Z, I think he may not be quick enough to consistently play that far away from the basket.



1. We had trouble dealing with the matchup zone in addition to being tight. Singler was having big trouble getting untracked. I didn't think he was squaring up on his shots in the first half.

4. Another game where Lance seemed to disappear out there. He did a few good things but I doubt he had a block and darn few rebounds. Without looking at the stats, it is hard to tell. Maybe Kelly would have done better, but the coach must not have thought that to be the case.


Singler came through with some important baskets late but this game is a good example of how we can win without one of the S's playing (or shooting) great. As for Lance, he had another one of those games where he just doesn't do enough to warrant getting PT. He doesn't rebound and there were a handful of times where his help defense wasn't there. I would have liked to see Ryan get more PT.


How about these stats?

Smith: 40 minutes
Singler: 40 minutes
Scheyer: 40 minutes


That's not good and I'm sorry but that's a mistake by K. Take Singler for example, getting him some rest in the first half may have helped him regroup a little (since he wasn't exactly tearing it up). With Andre playing so well, we can get Smith and Scheyer some rest. Sometimes in a tough game like this a minute or two on the bench to step back a bit and gather yourself (and rest) can be really useful.


I remember when Mason committed to Duke, his father said that he is not a back to the basket post player...has that changed ? I don't think that it has and Mason when he is ready will not be the answer in the post.

We don't need an "answer in post". We are solid in the post with MP1 and Z. I like where Z is at overall and MP1 is better than last year and now that he's actually getting playing time I expect him to continue to improve. We need Mason for his game, the positives he brings not the perceived negatives. We don't need a savior either. We are playing well, we have a guy like Mason waiting in the wings to contribute. Sweet. Imagine having some scoring and rebounding at the 4. That's going to be great.

I really want to beat UConn-victs. There a couple of teams I really hate to lose to (and one I just plain hate). UConnVicts is one of those teams. I do think we are going to have to shoot better to beat UConn but I have confidence that'll happen because a handful of the shots that we missed tonight were good open looks where the offense worked well and the shot didn't fall. Can't wait for Friday.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

camion
11-26-2009, 07:39 AM
If this is the way every game is going to be,
if the big three are going to play 40 minutes in every game,
if we are see a slowdown and matchup zone in every game,
if Zoubek fouls out of every game,
if Singler is frustrated in every game,
if Kelly only plays five minutes in every game,
if we have trouble with the pick and roll in every game,
if Sheyer starts having turnovers in every game,
if our threes don't fall in every game,
if Miles Plumlee gets into foul trouble in every game,
if Andre Dawkins sees limited action in every game,
if Mason Plumlee is in street clothes in every game,
it's going to be a long season.

If the score ends up like this in every game we'll be undefeated national champions.

Folks, it's just one game. Some games will be better; some will be worse, but they'll all be different. Enjoy the season. I know I will.

And Happy Thanksgiving to all.

RepoMan
11-26-2009, 07:58 AM
need a MOTM poll

arnie
11-26-2009, 08:03 AM
Lance and Zoubek are nearly mid-way into their senior seasons and neither one has figured out how to put the ball in the basket. I'm hoping the Plumlees both play a lot more during the ACC season as their upside is huge compared to Thomas/Zoubek. Use Thomas and Zoubek as subs for their energy and defense.

I'm also concerned with the 3 - 40's last night, but K wanted to win the game and it worked. Hopefully as Dawkins and Mason progress, we can sub for the the 3 S's.

Duke76
11-26-2009, 08:06 AM
don't know if this has been mentioned but since we are
so slow...it seems like we could play a little zone defense
to mix it up and see if that slows down teams. Didn't see it last
night, did we? K always starts out using new strategies and then backs away
as the season starts.

dukelifer
11-26-2009, 08:15 AM
don't know if this has been mentioned but since we are
so slow...it seems like we could play a little zone defense
to mix it up and see if that slows down teams. Didn't see it last
night, did we? K always starts out using new strategies and then backs away
as the season starts.
Duke has played zone and will play zone. The D was fine tonight after the first 5 minutes- the O was off. If the guards have a normal shooting night this is a 20 pt win. Lets face it- if Plumlee and Thomas hit those bunnies at the end- Duke wins by 15. Singler had an off night ( I hope) - he needs to start to play like JJ and take over. He did that only for a few minutes.

BlueintheFace
11-26-2009, 08:48 AM
Not to be a nitpick, but the Plumlee who played tonight was the Eldest (i.e., the soph)

I am aware. That was the point of the comment.

MarkD83
11-26-2009, 08:54 AM
Not to be a nitpick, but the Plumlee who played tonight was the Eldest (i.e., the soph)... I agree that he did make freshman mistakes. However, he also seems to be our only post player with potential for near-term development at the moment (Since we haven't seen Mason play yet).

Also, I think may be the sentiment is that if we don't have even one post player who can establish and hold position, then we are in trouble due to our thin (albeit talented) backcourt.

If you look at the picture ESPN showed in the begining Miles looked alot like Lance Thomas. In the earlier games Miles looked alot like Mason. When do you think ESPN will get the correct picture of Miles in their pregame lineups?

moonpie23
11-26-2009, 08:54 AM
anytime we play a team that is unranked or we are favored over, somehow i think a lot of us (i'm guilty of it too) think we should be able to effortlessly put that team away, score at will and stop THEM from scoring.

ASU played a good game and gave us problems where they knew we WOULD have problems. give credit to them and give credit to our team for overcoming those problem and getting the win.


the other thing is sometimes in a tournament setting, fans look PAST the immediate team and project the level of play against the upcoming team. In this case after seeing uconn lay lsu out......


duke will have the experience of this game to draw from. Hopefully, the shooting will be better.

_Gary
11-26-2009, 08:57 AM
I'm sure others have said this, so forgive me if I'm repeating stuff. I almost always read through the entire thread before posting, but this being Thanksgiving Day I've only got a few minutes.

There are always two ways to look at these type of games. If we admit that we were horrible from distance, especially in the 1st half, we can reason that normally we'd have had a better lead at halftime, blah, blah, blah. And that's true. We were pretty atrocious from the outside. Kyle had the worst shooting game I'm seen from him in a long time. In fact, he looked out of it (I thought he might have a touch of the flu or something) for much of the game. Jon was the only guy that seemed to have his stroke for much of the game.

We had tempo dictated to us for most of the night. I never like to see the other team force their "will" on us, but it happened tonight. It was also extremely distressing to see this team demonstrate that the template for beating Duke (at least the template used in recent NCAA losses) continues to hold true. Create the switch (which Duke is just bound and determined to do even when it involves a big that runs in cement) and then let your guard just dribble penetrate right past that big for an easy layup. Holy mackerel did we see that over and over and over. Very disheartening and my hope/belief is that when Mason comes back we'll be so much better with that particular weakness. But let's be honest, that's been the template that smaller, quicker teams have used against us time and time again to great success. Teams with solid ball handlers and decent outside shooters are not going to be as affected by our ball pressure and will continue to exploit that weakness in our basic defensive setup. Especially when someone like Z is playing up top.

On the other hand, I was screaming at our guys not to double down when they'd pass the ball into Boateng and Z was playing right behind him. That's where Z is a wall and we don't need doubles. And sure enough, every time we left that alone we'd prevent a score because there was just no way Boateng or the other bigs for ASU were going to score, back to the basket, with big Z looming behind them. So it's all about utilizing our strengths and unfortunately playing Z in a strong man to man where he's going to get caught up top on a switch just isn't going to work. Gotta find a way to stop that, because it's being utilized again and again and again.

Also thought they were a little stronger with the ball and their zone caused us plenty of problems during spots. But again, I think when we get Mason back things change for the better in a big way because of his athleticism and aggressiveness. You can't receive the ball as a big in that type of zone and just sit there with it like Z did a few times. And I'm not trying to get on Brian a bunch and I'm sorry if it sounds that way. But it was just so glaring where they were attacking when he was in the game.

Anyhow, hopefully we can come out much stronger, shooting better, and basically just playing a full 40 minutes like we did during stretches of the 2nd half.

Go Duke!

dukestheheat
11-26-2009, 08:57 AM
Folks, the mediocre play in much of the game tonight was due to mental lapses, not athletic inferiority to ASU.

Indeed, in my opinion Nolan, Kyle and Miles are really elite level athletes among D1 basketball players. (As I type this that play of Miles's when he ran after an ASU player, rejected his shot from behind and then ducked his head as he went flying under the rim comes to mind.)

It seemed to me like three-quarters of the team was just playing in a daze for some reason tonight, particularly on the defensive side. Not recognizing what ASU was trying to run, not getting into the right position quickly enough, not rotating quickly enough.

And all of the dumb, silly fouls by our bigs! The problems we had tonight start and end in the mental space.

And that will determine how we do against UConn, not how we would fare in a decathlon against those guys. If we come out to play razor-sharp mentally, we win. If our guys are in a tryptophan hangover, we will be caught out in silly fouls and with our heads turned the wrong way on perimeter flashes as UConn strolls to the hoop.

This post is spot-on; I do feel that we got the mojo back about halfway through the second half and turned it around.

K will use this as a major motivator for the team, and as a result I do expect to see a much more energetic, focused Duke team play on Friday.

dukestheheat.

roywhite
11-26-2009, 08:58 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=293290150

In regard to heavy criticism of the Duke defense, here is what the coaches had to say:

"I thought defensively after the first 5 minutes was the key to the ballgame," Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said.

"I thought their defensive effort, especially in the second half, was terrific," Arizona State coach Herb Sendek said. "Nothing came easy for us. Everything was challenged."

MarkD83
11-26-2009, 08:59 AM
Woof.

Ryan Kelly... plays 5 minutes?

Miles Plumlee... plays 17 minutes?

S, S & S play 40 minutes... against ASU... in NOVEMBER?

Sure Miles was in some foul trouble, but he could have easily gotten 5-10 more minutes. And I strongly disagree that we should not have looked to the post more. Especially in the 2nd half, Miles was consistently getting good position on his defender and presenting passers with a target... they just never even looked at him. It's like S/S/S aren't used to having an offensive post option, so they don't even think about it. Perhaps if Kelly had played more, we would have seen some more post entry passes, which leads me to:

I just fail to comprehend how Kelly and MP1 play a combined 22 minutes in this game, while at the same time we fail to give any of the big 3 a single breather. If we're trying to prove our doubters correct and peak early due to drained players and a low ceiling, then that's the way to go. However, if we want to build a dangerous team that exploits its strengths, we NEED them to be major factors. It's November, and they've both been very effective so far.

I just hope this is some kind of test or coaching strategy and not a recurring theme. As much as an *** as Gottlieb was tonight, I have to agree with him to some extent - I just don't understand some of the things we did tonight.

Toward the end of the game there was a play (maybe two) where Nolan flashed to the paint and received a pass behind the front line in the zone. he then drove to the basket. If Duke had been doing that all night and the guy flashing to the lane was Kelly or Singler, there may have been more high/low dump downs for layups. I think when Coach K sees the tape he may realize that against the zone he needs to do more of that.

Kishiznit
11-26-2009, 08:59 AM
Interesting to see how short the bench has gotten this early in the season. It would have been interesting to at least see what OC could have done in last night's environment for a few minutes. The fact is we're better suited to play a more trapping zone than pressing man to man because of speed. These kids will wear down early if he's not careful.

05/18/2005
11-26-2009, 09:07 AM
Here are some of my quick thoughts
-nolan can drive pretty much at will. Not that he finished poorly, but he can still finish a little bit better
- miles picked up at least 2 silly reach fouls. He really showed his athleticism when he had to duck to avoid hitting his head on the rim. Still needs to be more involved on offense
- singler had an off night , not much more to say about him
- scheyer played very well, hit that big three to end the half. Also, he had some great drives where he passed to a big for an easy layup
- zoubek shouldnt play much when mason returns(i know that they play different spots), but used situationally. I cringe every time he went out during that pick and roll because he couldnt get back fast enough. Also, he had way more than his fair share of bricks where he just through it up and it nearly broke the backboard.
- kelly didnt play enough for much insight
-dawkins i thought provided a great offensive spark off of the bench. Would really like to have him play more.
- thomas hasnt really improved much over his four years at all
-mason is needed to help with big man foul trouble

MarkD83
11-26-2009, 09:07 AM
Folks, the mediocre play in much of the game tonight was due to mental lapses, not athletic inferiority to ASU.

Indeed, in my opinion Nolan, Kyle and Miles are really elite level athletes among D1 basketball players. (As I type this that play of Miles's when he ran after an ASU player, rejected his shot from behind and then ducked his head as he went flying under the rim comes to mind.)

It seemed to me like three-quarters of the team was just playing in a daze for some reason tonight, particularly on the defensive side. Not recognizing what ASU was trying to run, not getting into the right position quickly enough, not rotating quickly enough.

And all of the dumb, silly fouls by our bigs! The problems we had tonight start and end in the mental space.

And that will determine how we do against UConn, not how we would fare in a decathlon against those guys. If we come out to play razor-sharp mentally, we win. If our guys are in a tryptophan hangover, we will be caught out in silly fouls and with our heads turned the wrong way on perimeter flashes as UConn strolls to the hoop.

In this day and age athletic players are those that can get you out of a bind when your team is not playing as a team. Not playing as a team is a mental issue. UConn looked impressive as do several other "teams" like Ky because they have a guy or two that can get a bucket all by themselves. One of the quotes from the UConn game last night was that UConn's best offense was to throw it up on the boards and let someone get the rebound. So although they looked like an offensive juggernaut they really did not run an offense.

My concern over the past few years and will probably continue is when we have a poor mental game (like last night) can we still get a win.

davekay1971
11-26-2009, 09:16 AM
Wow, for a double-digit win, there is a heck of a lot of bellyaching and angst.

For a reminder, this was a Herb Sendek team. Herb's teams ugly the game up. That's his style as a coach. They play a slow, methodical offense which is tough to defend (and our team did a stellar job defending it, especially in the second half). The slow pace tends to make it tough to get into an offensive rhythm playing against his teams, particularly if it's your first time playing against one of his teams (which it was for all of our guys).

It was ugly, but not particularly ugly for a game against Herb. We turned up the defensive intensity and the offensive efficiency for a critical stretch in the 2nd half, and held on for the win.

BlueintheFace
11-26-2009, 09:28 AM
Woof.

Ryan Kelly... plays 5 minutes?

Miles Plumlee... plays 17 minutes?

S, S & S play 40 minutes... against ASU... in NOVEMBER?

Sure Miles was in some foul trouble, but he could have easily gotten 5-10 more minutes. And I strongly disagree that we should not have looked to the post more. Especially in the 2nd half, Miles was consistently getting good position on his defender and presenting passers with a target... they just never even looked at him. It's like S/S/S aren't used to having an offensive post option, so they don't even think about it. Perhaps if Kelly had played more, we would have seen some more post entry passes, which leads me to:

I just fail to comprehend how Kelly and MP1 play a combined 22 minutes in this game, while at the same time we fail to give any of the big 3 a single breather. If we're trying to prove our doubters correct and peak early due to drained players and a low ceiling, then that's the way to go. However, if we want to build a dangerous team that exploits its strengths, we NEED them to be major factors. It's November, and they've both been very effective so far.

I just hope this is some kind of test or coaching strategy and not a recurring theme. As much as an *** as Gottlieb was tonight, I have to agree with him to some extent - I just don't understand some of the things we did tonight.

I agree about Kelly. I thought his vision and ability in the high post (which he has shown already this season) was just what the doctor ordered. I thought Arizona State was practically begging to be picked apart by a high post player looking for hi-low or three point shooters in the collapsing zone.

I disagree strongly on looking to the post. Just off the top of my head I recall 4 possessions in the 2nd half in which Duke's first option was obviously miles or zou in the post. Those guys just COULD NOT hold position for more than a split second and when you have a defender on the perimeter with active hands...you just can't match up the timing. Duke was DEFINITELY looking to go down low first in multiple half court sets.

Re: Miles' minutes. Early in the first half there was a stretch where Glasser came off the high screen and found Miles' man down low multiple times with him just standing and watching under the basket. K was NOT amused. This led to a long stretch in the first half with him on the bench. I think it was punishment. He got more consistent minutes in the 2nd half. I don't think his minutes were indicative of a trend is what I am saying.

mike88
11-26-2009, 09:32 AM
Getting back late from the (painful) Magic-Heat game, I only got to see the last 12 minutes of the Duke game, and I am surprised by the overall negative tone of the post-game comments. I thought Duke looked quite good as they built up their lead, worked the clock, and kept ASU from ever making a serious threat to win. I am looking forward to seeing how the team performs vs UConn, but I think we are developing quite well for this point in the season.

05/18/2005
11-26-2009, 09:40 AM
Getting back late from the (painful) Magic-Heat game, I only got to see the last 12 minutes of the Duke game, and I am surprised by the overall negative tone of the post-game comments. I thought Duke looked quite good as they built up their lead, worked the clock, and kept ASU from ever making a serious threat to win. I am looking forward to seeing how the team performs vs UConn, but I think we are developing quite well for this point in the season.

Yea, you only watched the best twelve minutes of the game. You missed 75% of the game where much of this griping is focusing

Ultrarunner
11-26-2009, 09:52 AM
does anybody think that this below average performance was a fluke? im not saying were #1 but when we essentially live and die by the 3 we sometimes play like this. it was also our first decent test, with uconn being our first true test, and this doesnt get me worried. first game away from cameron and its early. dont freak 5 games into a 5-0 season

Yep. Can you imagine how bad we'd lose if we only shot 22 percent from three? And we have no inside game. And nobody on the team can penetrate. Or guard.

Oh wait - we won by 9, shooting 22 percent from three with our "big guns" shooting 2-15. Miles and Zoubs comibined for 9 pts and 13 rebounds in 35 minutes (and yes, 9 fouls - nice to have depth). Nolan and Jon both got to the middle of the key frequently. And we held ASU to 38 percent and beat them by 11 in a low-scoring game.

I don't consider this a below average performance. A solid win over a solid team that will finish in the top half of the P-10.

Ultrarunner
11-26-2009, 10:08 AM
- zoubek shouldnt play much when mason returns(i know that they play different spots), but used situationally. I cringe every time he went out during that pick and roll because he couldnt get back fast enough. Also, he had way more than his fair share of bricks where he just through it up and it nearly broke the backboard.

He finished 2-3 and shadowed Boetang back consistently the second half. Boetang had a miserable game and it's hard to argue that Z or Miles got beat regularly with the exception of Lockett who just had some ridiculus shots go in.

camion
11-26-2009, 10:45 AM
LPBT (Last Post Before Turkey)

Here's something to be thankful for. You're not an ASU fan.

They played a weak unathletic team with absolutely no inside presence, a team that couldn't shoot, couldn't drive and couldn't defend the high pick. That team also missed 14 of 18 three point attempts.

Their big men were owned by Zoubs and Miles. And they lost by double digits. Oh, desolation!!!

Be ye thankful that ye are not they.

Happy Thanksgiving.

oldnavy
11-26-2009, 11:04 AM
Duke has played zone and will play zone. The D was fine tonight after the first 5 minutes- the O was off. If the guards have a normal shooting night this is a 20 pt win. Lets face it- if Plumlee and Thomas hit those bunnies at the end- Duke wins by 15. Singler had an off night ( I hope) - he needs to start to play like JJ and take over. He did that only for a few minutes.

Sums it up pretty good. I was really frustrated with the D early. We could not defend the high pick and isolation. But, they seemed to figure it out, however I would have liked to see some more of the zone D.

Offensively, not our prettiest game, but Sendek does that to you. Our shooting was poor from long distance, but Nolan was 6-8 from 2pt range! Kyle seemed a little off for some reason, but still ended strong when we needed him. He is my favorite Dukie. Miles better be careful, he almost decapitated himself. Zou actually did OK after his first run, (the worst I remember seeing him play), but he rallied and played well at the end. That 5th foul on him was ticky tack...

Everyone eat lots of turkey and have a wonderful holiday! Give thanks to the Almighty for all of our blessings! GO DUKE!!

jimsumner
11-26-2009, 11:06 AM
"For a reminder, this was a Herb Sendek team. Herb's teams ugly the game up. That's his style as a coach"

This is a GREAT point. State fans ran off Sendek in part because of this. Even when they won, they felt like they had been to an IRS audit.

Sir Stealth
11-26-2009, 11:19 AM
People sure are panicking a lot based on just one game. I don't think Duke played well, but I do think you have to give some credit to Herb for the way his defense was prepared to approach us. Even when we executed well enough to get open shots, it seemed like they were rushed a little more than necessary because our guys expected a defender to get there. ASU stepped up on D. That's not to say that we couldn't have played a lot better, but I think that all the "we are too unathletic" stuff is an overreaction. It's early and Duke will be better.

For all those who are concerned with guys playing too many minutes, it would probably be best to just get over it now. K doesn't care. I think I remember a comment where he even said he wanted to play these guys a lot early in the year because they'd be playing a lot late, so he does not share the concern about not wearing them down. And when you think about it, they shouldn't get worn down. The NBA is full of guys their same age playing over 80 game seasons plus playoffs. 40 minute games are not that long, especially with TV timeouts. I do regret players like Kelly not getting more PT early in their careers, but even if you hate this, it's just not going to change and probably not worth getting upset about anymore.

We will find out a lot more about where this team is tomorrow against UCONN.

ncexnyc
11-26-2009, 11:25 AM
Without a doubt a very ugly win. As others have already said this was Sendek ball at it's best. The team looked a tad sluggish at the start of the game and the pace didn't help in that regards.

Jon played his usual solid game.

Kyle had a terrible 1st half, but picked it up in the 2nd, the sign of a great player.

Nolan had another solid game. Can he takeover a game and carry a team to a win? We'll see as the season progresses.

Miles made some really great plays, but also made several dumb ones. He's a work in progress, but the kid has lots of potential and should improve greatly as the season goes on.

Lance? Lance? Did he make the flight from Durham?

Brian was Brian. Solid under the basket, but waaaaay to slow chasing out on the perimeter. Coach K has got to do a better job of using the kid's ability in the middle.

"Baby Face" Dawkins had another excellent outing. For those of you who are calling for more playing time ease up! Let's remember this kid is younger than most freshmen. He's got a ton of talent so let's not burn him out. He'll be a key weapon for this team come tourney time.

Kelly and OC, didn't I see them in the terminal with Lance?

And no, this isn't bellyaching about a win. This along with the majority of posts on this thread are pointing out areas of concern. Areas that to some of us have been the same for the past few years. It's very easy to say if we had hit this basket or that, the margin of victory would have been 20+, but we can also go in the other direction and end up with a loss.

I'm sure all of us want the same thing, a winning Duke team.

jipops
11-26-2009, 11:52 AM
I'm a little disappointed in all the complaining going on here, even after a win. I'm very surprised by how few seem to recognize the very difficult matchup zone employed against Duke last night. Yes, this was a tough matchup to deal with, with the type of personnel that we have but we were able to counter it with some fantastic D in the 2nd half ourselves. Scheyer was still able to get into the lane at times and throw the zone off-balance. Nolan still got his shots. As clunky as Zoubek may have seemed, he still grabbed 7 boards in only about 15 minutes of play. It's quite normal to see a frontcourt struggle against this type of defense, most likely the reason for the relatively few shot attempts by our bigs - that and the foul trouble.

Sendek showed up with a great game plan. It's not like we didn't show up, we just couldn't get good looks. This is how college ball is. I'm very proud of how this team handled this last night.

Oriole Way
11-26-2009, 11:57 AM
How about these stats?

Smith: 40 minutes
Singler: 40 minutes
Scheyer: 40 minutes

I hate to reignite the always-simmering depth/minute distribution debate, but I don't remember ever seeing three guys on the same team play an entire game before. Wonder how many times it'll happen this season?

It's somewhat concerning to me, but what is more concerning and frustrating to me is Dawkins' lack of playing time. Coach K had problems giving minutes to one of his best freshman players last season, and it would be detrimental to the team to make the same mistake again this season.

Oriole Way
11-26-2009, 12:01 PM
I'm a little disappointed in all the complaining going on here, even after a win. I'm very surprised by how few seem to recognize the very difficult matchup zone employed against Duke last night. Yes, this was a tough matchup to deal with, with the type of personnel that we have but we were able to counter it with some fantastic D in the 2nd half ourselves. Scheyer was still able to get into the lane at times and throw the zone off-balance. Nolan still got his shots. As clunky as Zoubek may have seemed, he still grabbed 7 boards in only about 15 minutes of play. It's quite normal to see a frontcourt struggle against this type of defense, most likely the reason for the relatively few shot attempts by our bigs - that and the foul trouble.

Sendek showed up with a great game plan. It's not like we didn't show up, we just couldn't get good looks. This is how college ball is. I'm very proud of how this team handled this last night.

I disagree, I don't think Sendek had a great game plan whatsoever, what I saw was our best player struggle to hit wide open shots. Nolan Smith also missed several wide open looks. We shot poorly, and their defense didn't do much to force it. I think Duke would have struggled against a man-to-man last night as well.

I think our defensive ineptitude was a bigger concern last night. Our bigs need to stop switching off onto opposing guards so much, and Coach K should have already made that a point of emphasis considering our roster this season.

Oriole Way
11-26-2009, 12:12 PM
"Baby Face" Dawkins had another excellent outing. For those of you who are calling for more playing time ease up! Let's remember this kid is younger than most freshmen. He's got a ton of talent so let's not burn him out. He'll be a key weapon for this team come tourney time.


He's not going to get burned out playing 17 minutes a game, and he won't get burned out playing 20-25 minutes a game, which is how many minutes he should have gotten last night.

I would understand Coach K's propensity to shorten his bench if he did it to give his best players the most minutes. But he didn't do that last night, and I think it hurt the team's performance, and it will hurt the team's long-term development.

I don't think Thomas and Zoubek should be getting anywhere near the minutes they got last night. Between them, they had 6 turnovers and 8 fouls. Dawkins and Kelly should have gotten at least 8-10 of their minutes last night, especially considering Dawkins didn't play as badly as Zoubek and Thomas did. I don't think the experience of Thomas and Zoubek justified playing them as much as they did last night over guys who need to be developed for this season and the future. Playing Dawkins and Kelly over Thomas and Zoubek would not have been the difference between a win or a loss last night, but it very well could be the difference later on in the season.

I have no problem with Zoubek and Thomas being senior leaders, but coming off the bench, and for substantially less minutes than they got last night.

devilboomer
11-26-2009, 12:18 PM
Our bigs need to stop switching off onto opposing guards so much, and Coach K should have already made that a point of emphasis considering our roster this season.

The bigs (Zoubek, MP1) didn't switch onto the guards last night. They just hedged on the screen, which is what Coach K was telling them to do (he talked about this in the post-game). Our problem was just that Z is pathetically slow and couldn't make it back to the basket when the guard blew by him. Plumlee also had trouble recovering from the hedge.

I think getting MP2 back helps us a lot with this. Having two athletic bigs (MP1, MP2) makes it much harder for ASU to run their sets last night, as it would have been much easier to recover on the penetration with your big/little brother sagging off of you.

Oriole Way
11-26-2009, 12:31 PM
Duke needs to do a few things to get better:

- Play Zoubek and Thomas less

- Play Dawkins more

- Stop having bigs switch off when playing man to man. This pertains mostly to Zoubek, but also to Plumlee. Plumlee has a little more foot speed, but both players should be hanging back in the post and waiting for their man to come to them, and they shouldn't be shadowing their man as much. Opposing teams can exploit our big men switching off so much by setting screens with their post men at the top of the key. The coaching staff needs to remedy this and I'm susprised/frustrated that it hasn't already been addressed.

- Set more screens for Nolan Smith so he can penetrate. There were a couple of times last night where Smith was left alone on the wings with the ball and not a single teammate set a screen for him. I was yelling at the TV, I couldn't believe that our best driving guard wasn't getting a screen EVERY SINGLE TIME he touched the ball in a one-on-one situation. This is Singler's responsibility first and foremost, but this needs to made a point of emphasis by the coaching staff and a priority for the entire team. If Singler starts setting screens for Smith more regularly, there will be great pick and roll opportunities for Singler, and more importantly, it will allow Smith to work on driving to the line. It will make Smith a more effective scorer, and it will make Duke's entire offense more dangerous.

Overall, I thought Duke, particularly Singler and Smith, had poor shooting games which can be expected shooting in a big arena being away from Cameron for the first time. I don't expect them to shoot that poorly in road games, although it will happen from time to time. I was more disappointed by the coaching tendencies I saw last night. Defensively and offensively, the changes I mentioned above need to be implemented, and the player minutes need to be adjusted. Dawkins and Kelly need to play more, if anything to see what Kelly can do against better competetion (by the way, what little I saw of Kelly I was happy with, he made good switches defensively and looked like he was comfortable, yet didn't see the floor again in the second half). Zoubek and Thomas have shown a startingly low amount of progression over 3 years. We know what they can do, and they shouldn't be getting major minutes against top-teir competition.

Dawkins especially needs to get invaluable experience now, because he will be one of Duke's best players this season when all is said and done. Dawkins came into the game last night and immediately made an impact. He was one of the few guys to play with confidence, even after missing a couple of shots. Yet he didn't get any PT. I don't buy the lack of experience excuse with Dawkins. I didn't with Elliot Williams and I refuse to believe Dawkins can't help this team right off the bat. I also saw Dawkins play well last night, certainly better than Zoubek and Thomas, yet Zoubek and Thomas were able to play through a plethora of mistakes which killed the team's momentum at several key points. At some point, talent and performance on the court need to outrank experience, and I hope that time comes soon.

Oriole Way
11-26-2009, 01:07 PM
The bigs (Zoubek, MP1) didn't switch onto the guards last night. They just hedged on the screen, which is what Coach K was telling them to do (he talked about this in the post-game). Our problem was just that Z is pathetically slow and couldn't make it back to the basket when the guard blew by him. Plumlee also had trouble recovering from the hedge.

I think getting MP2 back helps us a lot with this. Having two athletic bigs (MP1, MP2) makes it much harder for ASU to run their sets last night, as it would have been much easier to recover on the penetration with your big/little brother sagging off of you.

There were a couple of times where our bigs completely switched off and were guarding someone else's man. Once it was the PG, another time it was Kuksiks. Pretty sure both times lead directly to a field goal.

But our bigs should also be hedging much less as well. Zoubek and Plumlee shouldn't even follow their man to the perimeter very closely.


Our problem was just that Z is pathetically slow and couldn't make it back to the basket when the guard blew by him.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. When Zoubek or Miles hedge, and the opposing guard turns the corner and beats his man, at that point Zoubek/Miles is the last line of defense against the opposing player who is now driving to the basket. At that point, they are guarding the opposing guard. That constitutes a switch in defensive assingnment, however temporary it may be.

Oftentimes, our guards not only need to fight through an opposing big man's screen, but also fight through our own big man who is overplaying a hedge. Unless the opposing guard in question is a lights-out shooter who cannot be given an opening to shoot, then Duke will be better off de-emphasizing hedges and stop having our big man follow opposing bigs out to the perimeter. It's flawed defense and flawed coaching, and adjustments need to be made.

duke09hms
11-26-2009, 01:23 PM
It was disheartening to see our bench shorten so much, especially seeing Ryan Kelly and OC play so few minutes when Kelly has been playing so well of late. I seriously doubt they could have done worse than Lance, who was in there for over half the game or at least spelled Kyle for a few minutes.

Though this may seem to be blasphemous among the most staunch/biased Dukies here, but maybe there is something to be said for playing a deep bench like Huckleberry for development and rest reasons. I don't think I've ever seen a team play 3 players for 40 minutes this early on. It's not like Kelly or Czyz could have committed more freshman mistakes than our senior bigs.

devilboomer
11-26-2009, 01:25 PM
Oriole, great analysis. I agree with most of your points.

A couple things to add:

(1) I think our guards aren't very good at fighting through screens. Nolan looked like he had trouble doing it last night. I guess that's why K was sticking with the hedge. I agree though -- I cringe whenever I see Zoubek hedge. If Glasser shredded us with the high screen, I shudder to think what someone like John Wall would do to us.

(2) I noticed a bunch of moving screens set by the ASU bigs last night. The refs didn't start calling it until the 2nd half. That might have been why we struggled so hard to defend those screens -- they were illegal.

(3) Agree that Dawkins deserves more PT. Kid is fearless. Shot from behind the NBA line all night and had the highest 3pt %. Would have liked to see more Kelly last night, especially playing w/ Plumlee. He's the only one on our team that looks to feed the post as his first option -- and he does so brilliantly.

Acymetric
11-26-2009, 01:35 PM
(2) I noticed a bunch of moving screens set by the ASU bigs last night. The refs didn't start calling it until the 2nd half. That might have been why we struggled so hard to defend those screens -- they were illegal.


This certainly doesn't explain away all the problems we had, but I'm glad someone else noticed this...it was driving me crazy watching them use those moving screens all night. About fell off the couch when they finally called it!

dukeENG2003
11-26-2009, 01:47 PM
my wife had fallen asleep at the point in the game when they finally called one of these, and wondered what the hell had happened I clapped and yelled so loud. She was thinking there was a huge dunk or block or something.

I know it was subtle, but it was giving them a HUGE advantage to let those moving screens go all game long. you guys are DEFINITELY not the only ones who noticed it.

I'll give K credit. We were switching those screens earlier and it was killing us. He must have said something about it, b/c form 10 minutes left in the first half or so on, we stopped switching and it made a big difference. I WOULD like to see Kelly and Dawkins play more though.

GraniteDuke
11-26-2009, 02:57 PM
My heavens, I thought we won last night.

This was the first meaningful game of the season and from reading this thread one would think Duke will be lucky to finish in the top half of the ACC.
It appears our only chance is for Coach K to (a) sit Thomas and Zoubs,
(b) play Andre, Miles and Kelly a lot more and (c) not play Singler, Scheyer and Smith 35+ munutes a game. Coach K is going to play the stars most of the time, like it or not, especially in slow tempo games. The other players will sit if they make mistakes, especially on defense. Dawkins, Kelly and Miles may have very bright futures but they made plenty of mistakes last night. They will get their chances tonight and if they make the most of them, they will play more.
Let's give the Team a chance to find its way (and get all of its players in the lineup) before we push the panic button.

darthur
11-26-2009, 03:36 PM
For the love of God, we kept them to 39 points on 31% shooting in 35 minutes once we get settled down. The defense was not just fine, it was excellent.

Ultrarunner
11-26-2009, 05:51 PM
For the love of God, we kept them to 39 points on 31% shooting in 35 minutes once we get settled down. The defense was not just fine, it was excellent.

Welcome to the modern DBR, a place to find every conceivable flaw in the current crop of Blue Devils, their recruits, their coaches and their fans. If said flaws do not exist, they will be created for the purpose. Evidence to the contrary will be answered by either with a "Yes, but..." comment to redirect the discussion to the "correct" thoughts or being ignored entirely.

Duke won the game by 11 on a night where they did not shoot well from 3-point range. Last year, we would have lost (see Michigan 2). Instead of celebrating the fact that we could win a game like this with 2-point shooting, we complain that the offense didn't do those things the ASU defense was designed to prevent.

On defense, guards for the other team slash, drive and discover a defender in their face instead of finishing at the rim. This is explained as poor shooting for the ASU squad rather than good defense by the team and definitely not as an excellent adjustment by Coach K to take away the "roll" in the pick and roll.

And, in the interests of perpetual pessimism, we project the failings of the last game (which aren't failings at all) to the next game disregarding the fact that Ucon(n) will not have the same system, personnel or players to attempt to duplicate ASU.

As bad as it is here, chat last night was even worse - incredibly negative and disrespectful of the Duke players and coaches.

Personally, I think you're right - the defense was very good and the offense did well enough against decent competition. But I tend to wear the dark blue glasses and, at least in my case, they tend to focus more clearly on the positives than the negatives and not at all on the imaginary.

SMO
11-26-2009, 06:08 PM
I have yet to see Mason Plumlee play, but we know 9 out of 10 freshmen would struggle to impact the big games that are on the horizon. He better be the second coming of Hansbrough if Duke thinks they will get past the sweet sixteen this year.

But UNC is a national title contender. Thanks for the insight Wheat!:p

Spam Filter
11-26-2009, 06:20 PM
Welcome to the modern DBR, a place to find every conceivable flaw in the current crop of Blue Devils, their recruits, their coaches and their fans. If said flaws do not exist, they will be created for the purpose. Evidence to the contrary will be answered by either with a "Yes, but..." comment to redirect the discussion to the "correct" thoughts or being ignored entirely.

Duke won the game by 11 on a night where they did not shoot well from 3-point range. Last year, we would have lost (see Michigan 2). Instead of celebrating the fact that we could win a game like this with 2-point shooting, we complain that the offense didn't do those things the ASU defense was designed to prevent.

On defense, guards for the other team slash, drive and discover a defender in their face instead of finishing at the rim. This is explained as poor shooting for the ASU squad rather than good defense by the team and definitely not as an excellent adjustment by Coach K to take away the "roll" in the pick and roll.

And, in the interests of perpetual pessimism, we project the failings of the last game (which aren't failings at all) to the next game disregarding the fact that Ucon(n) will not have the same system, personnel or players to attempt to duplicate ASU.

As bad as it is here, chat last night was even worse - incredibly negative and disrespectful of the Duke players and coaches.

Personally, I think you're right - the defense was very good and the offense did well enough against decent competition. But I tend to wear the dark blue glasses and, at least in my case, they tend to focus more clearly on the positives than the negatives and not at all on the imaginary.

Unfortunately, whether you like it or not, this is what happens when a program hasn't made it past the SW 16 in 5 years. When you have success in March, you get the benefit of the doubt for your struggles the next November. When you don't, every minor hiccup drives the fans to fear for what will happen next March.

The only way this stops is if the team gets it done in March and get to a FF. Until that happens every year is going to be like this.

I am not saying it's right that fans have these type of reactions, but that's the reality of high profile NCAA basketball programs. It's the same reason why State fans ran off Herb, and why UK fans ran Tubby out of town. Obviously coach K is never going to be ran out of Duke, but the voices of the critics are going to get louder and louder until his team produces in March.

jgehtland
11-26-2009, 06:24 PM
Every top 5 team has struggled against an unranked opponent this season already. Some have lost to much lesser teams. Sendek ALWAYS slows us down, but we ALWAYS win.

Chill out, people. If you expected last night to be any different than any of the previous 24 games against Sendek (in which we were 21-3 btw) you just aren't paying attention.

jv001
11-26-2009, 06:34 PM
Happy Thanksgiving....

Both teams I saw last night looked weak with interior play.

Miles Plumlee is going to be a good player. A really good player. He just has a little ways to go....

Other than him, Duke struggles to get any above average play from the inside positions. The horses are just not there.

Scheyer was the best player on the floor, no question.

Smith was Duke's quickest player, but was hesitant to use his gift. Not sure why.

I liked Dawkin's focus and stroke. Very good, comfortable ealy season game for the freshman.

I have yet to see Mason Plumlee play, but we know 9 out of 10 freshmen would struggle to impact the big games that are on the horizon. He better be the second coming of Hansbrough if Duke thinks they will get past the sweet sixteen this year.

Those black socks are awful. Duke is not an exceptionally quick team, but those socks make the team look even slower. Somebody might want to reconsider that look....

Now let me see, Duke's players are not going to get better so we will not get past the sweet sixteen. But unc's young guys are going to get better and win the NCAA. I don't have any idea of how good Mason is now or how good he will be by years end, but I know he will help. Dawkins and Kelly already look like they will contribute. So quit looking at things thru those ugly blue glasses. And yes have a Happy Thanksgiving! And don't forget Go Duke!

Wheat/"/"/"
11-26-2009, 06:58 PM
But UNC is a national title contender. Thanks for the insight Wheat!:p

Both teams have issues....

Yea, I think UNC can be a contender. They will have to stop throwing the ball away and start making free throws, or they will never get past the sweet sixteen either.

IMO, that was a poor defensive performance by Duke last night, and ASU played pretty bad, especially inside, to help out.

But a W is a W as they say. I didn't get to see UCONN so I don't know what they have inside since Thabeet left, but if I was a Duke fan I'd be concerned with post play.

jipops
11-26-2009, 07:04 PM
I disagree, I don't think Sendek had a great game plan whatsoever, what I saw was our best player struggle to hit wide open shots. Nolan Smith also missed several wide open looks. We shot poorly, and their defense didn't do much to force it. I think Duke would have struggled against a man-to-man last night as well.

I think our defensive ineptitude was a bigger concern last night. Our bigs need to stop switching off onto opposing guards so much, and Coach K should have already made that a point of emphasis considering our roster this season.

Few of the shots we got came easy. What may have looked like open looks were fought for rather heavily through running around screens off the ball. Very rarely did I see someone shooting an outside shot where there wasn't a defender right in his face forcing the shot to be rushed. I think it forced Duke to get tight when there were decent looks. There was little opportunity to get in rhythm. I just don't think last night was a case of Duke being "off". But that's just my viewpoint.

I hardly saw our defense as being inept. Yes, Zoubek did struggle as they ran the switch on several occasions. But it's hard to argue with a result that held them to 2 fg's over a 13 minute span. K may have let the Zoubek switch go because he may not have wanted Boateng to start getting on track getting easy dump offs. That may have opened up the outside even more for ASU. They did a beautiful job spreading the floor on us, not sure if that has been noticed. Sometimes defense is about sacrificing some plays so that other advantages won't be realized. Just my own speculation anyways.

jv001
11-26-2009, 07:09 PM
Both teams have issues....


IMO, that was a poor defensive performance by Duke last night, and ASU played pretty bad, especially inside, to help out.
I think ASU shot 39% fg% for the game, scored 53pts and did not make many 3 pointers. Looks like pretty good "D" to me. Maybe you're thinking of ole roy's team not playing good defense. Go Duke!

jipops
11-26-2009, 07:15 PM
Both teams have issues....


IMO, that was a poor defensive performance by Duke last night, and ASU played pretty bad, especially inside, to help out.



I was rather disgusted that Duke gave up 2 fg's to ASU during a crucial 13 minute stretch of the 2nd half. Poor defense indeed.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-26-2009, 07:30 PM
Now let me see, Duke's players are not going to get better so we will not get past the sweet sixteen. But unc's young guys are going to get better and win the NCAA. I don't have any idea of how good Mason is now or how good he will be by years end, but I know he will help. Dawkins and Kelly already look like they will contribute. So quit looking at things thru those ugly blue glasses. And yes have a Happy Thanksgiving! And don't forget Go Duke!

Happy Thanksgiving back at you....

I don't ever recall saying this UNC team will win the NCAA. To's and foul shooting will get them beat early if they don't improve.

I absolutely think Miles Plumlee will get better. He looks much improved over last year already. And he has all the skills and size to be a very good player. Very good.

He's not there yet...and I happen to think he's a year away from some dominating play. Same with Davis and Zeller. Although I think those two are a little ahead of Miles at this time. They can all have some good games here and there, but their best is yet to come.

The team difference is Mile's help inside is ...well he's still waiting for it.

Davis and Zeller have Deon and the two versitile and strong Wear boys who already are darn close the where Miles is now. (Btw, I think Miles has a higher ceiling...)

If I had to pick an 8 man team from Duke/UNC today, I'd start Scheyer, Smith,Singler,Deon Thompson, Davis.
My bench would be Zeller, Ginyard,Travis Wear.

dukelifer
11-26-2009, 07:33 PM
Unfortunately, whether you like it or not, this is what happens when a program hasn't made it past the SW 16 in 5 years. When you have success in March, you get the benefit of the doubt for your struggles the next November. When you don't, every minor hiccup drives the fans to fear for what will happen next March.

The only way this stops is if the team gets it done in March and get to a FF. Until that happens every year is going to be like this.

I am not saying it's right that fans have these type of reactions, but that's the reality of high profile NCAA basketball programs. It's the same reason why State fans ran off Herb, and why UK fans ran Tubby out of town. Obviously coach K is never going to be ran out of Duke, but the voices of the critics are going to get louder and louder until his team produces in March.

Ah to be a low profile NCAA basketball team- where the fans look for the good in their teams and players and enjoy the journey- revel in an excellent regular season and even a league championship. Duke had to spoil it and become a high profile team. I am curious- how many sweet sixteens or lower in a row does a team need to acquire that low profile status and the fan's respect for good team play and hard work or will Duke always be subject to the negativity and criticism even after a double digit win.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-26-2009, 07:39 PM
I was rather disgusted that Duke gave up 2 fg's to ASU during a crucial 13 minute stretch of the 2nd half. Poor defense indeed.

Wasn't that about the same stretch for Boateng's world record attempt at fumbling To's ? :)

Seriously? I thought that was by far the worst D I've seen Duke play over the course of an entire game for a long time.

Kedsy
11-26-2009, 07:47 PM
I didn't get to see UCONN so I don't know what they have inside since Thabeet left, but if I was a Duke fan I'd be concerned with post play.

I saw the 2nd half of the UConn game and they have some athletic inside players, like they always do (as well as some quick, athletic guards). But I'm not so concerned, either about our overall defense or our post play. After the first few minutes, I thought our defense against Arizona State was excellent.

As for post defense, Z and Miles both got burned a few times cheating on the high pick, as many have pointed out, but they were quite solid inside. True, Arizona State didn't have a whole lot of inside play, but IMO a decent portion of Boateng's poor play was due to the fact that he was defended quite well. And statistically, if you combine Z and Miles they played 35 minutes and had 9 points and 13 boards, a steal and 4 blocks. If they were one guy with those numbers, we'd be going crazy about how good our center was. Really, they make some mistakes but personally I feel pretty happy with our post play so far.

jipops
11-26-2009, 07:48 PM
Wasn't that about the same stretch for Boateng's world record attempt at fumbling To's ? :)

Seriously? I thought that was by far the worst D I've seen Duke play over the course of an entire game for a long time.

I guess you're saying there a lies in the statistics. Boateng didn't have those TO's to go with his 21 pts the previous game. Not saying he's some kind of force, but just sayin'. Yes, there were some bonehead reach-ins committed. Yes Duke, namely Zobouk, was abused as players drove to the basket. But as a whole I really didn't have any major issues with the defense. Sure, there are improvements that probably need to be made. But it locked down during the crucial stretch of the game. Duke's defense this past February bothered me far more than last night's did.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-26-2009, 07:54 PM
Ah to be a low profile NCAA basketball team- where the fans look for the good in their teams and players and enjoy the journey- revel in an excellent regular season and even a league championship. Duke had to spoil it and become a high profile team. I am curious- how many sweet sixteens or lower in a row does a team need to acquire that low profile status and the fan's respect for good team play and hard work or will Duke always be subject to the negativity and criticism even after a double digit win.

That would be a fair point, if these criticisms were disrespectful. I don't think most of the criticism here has been that disrespectful. Some of it directed at players personally may be viewed that way and should not be encouraged.
I certainly respect Duke and the accomplishments of the past.

If you don't play well, you get called out. If you play well, you get called out. That's what fans do.

Truth is, Duke is not everyone else. This program expects better than last nights effort and that's what makes it great.

I was out of town after the poor game UNC played against Syracuse and didn't get to chime in. Rest assured I have plenty of criticism for some UNC play too.

jipops
11-26-2009, 07:59 PM
Happy Thanksgiving back at you....

If I had to pick an 8 man team from Duke/UNC today, I'd start Scheyer, Smith,Singler,Deon Thompson, Davis.
My bench would be Zeller, Ginyard,Travis Wear.

Yeah, but with that lineup one guy would be flopping while another would be standing under the basket as his defense is on the other side of the floor.

Spam Filter
11-26-2009, 08:23 PM
Ah to be a low profile NCAA basketball team- where the fans look for the good in their teams and players and enjoy the journey- revel in an excellent regular season and even a league championship. Duke had to spoil it and become a high profile team. I am curious- how many sweet sixteens or lower in a row does a team need to acquire that low profile status and the fan's respect for good team play and hard work or will Duke always be subject to the negativity and criticism even after a double digit win.

Duke will be a high profile program as long as Coach K is there, as most likely long after he is gone, depending on the performance of his successor.

A team coached by him is always going to be have expectations comparable to his accomplishment of the past.

Obviously it's better to be a high profile program, but all the good that comes with it also comes with some baggage. Some people don't want to deal with that and want all the good but none of the bad. For a program like Duke, there is no "just enjoy the journey", there is no, "a w is a w". Duke teams either do well in March, or their fans are disappointed, winning ugly against mediocre teams is not good enough, they have to look good against them.
That's the baggage of being a high profile program. But the alternative of not being one is worse.

dukelifer
11-26-2009, 08:24 PM
That would be a fair point, if these criticisms were disrespectful. I don't think most of the criticism here has been that disrespectful. Some of it directed at players personally may be viewed that way and should not be encouraged.
I certainly respect Duke and the accomplishments of the past.

If you don't play well, you get called out. If you play well, you get called out. That's what fans do.

Truth is, Duke is not everyone else. This program expects better than last nights effort and that's what makes it great.

I was out of town after the poor game UNC played against Syracuse and didn't get to chime in. Rest assured I have plenty of criticism for some UNC play too.

Absolutely- Duke should play better and I am sure nobody in the program is putting last night's game in the time capsule - but the point is to win the game and they did that. Team play great and they play poorly throughout a season-even the best teams- but an 11 pt win is not a case to start the crying about playing time, changing lineups or focusing only on Z's turnovers when he had 7 strong bounds and 2 solid putbacks. All teams and players have weaknesses - and they get revealed in almost every game. Teams have to learn to compensate for their weaknesses if they are going to win- they need time to figure it out.

By the way- I think your Duke/UNC lineup is about right although I am expecting Dawkins to steal Travis Wear's spot in your top 8.

dukelifer
11-26-2009, 08:37 PM
For a program like Duke, there is no "just enjoy the journey", there is no, "a w is a w". Duke teams either do well in March, or their fans are disappointed, winning ugly against mediocre teams is not good enough, they have to look good against them.


Sorry- but that is silly. I have been a fan for over 30 years- and I have enjoyed many journeys. I have also been very disappointed with nothing but a championship- so it does not matter to me if they get to a final four or a sweet sixteen. If they do not win it all- I am disappointed. I just happen to think that any team - flaws and all- can get hot and get close. I have seen Duke teams with less talent than this team get to the Final Four. I just choose to wait and see how things develop over the course of a season. You just never know who may figure it out and get better at the end of the season.

Neals384
11-26-2009, 08:42 PM
Several post have made the point that, well, Duke won, so what's to criticize? We should all celebrate and be happy.

To me, winning is not the only goal in sports (sorry, Vince L.). If Duke pays their very best, but come up against a better opponent, or faces a team that buries every three for the first time in their lives, then I'm the first to say "good efforts guys, you gave it your best".

On the other hand, when a team doesn't plays at its best, then a learning opportunity exists - the coaches and players can work together on how to play the game better. They can't get taller, or quicker, or more athletic, but they can always play smarter, defend better and play better team offense.

The learning opportunites in this game - how to run an offense against a zone; how to defend the high post pick. When DBR posters make this kind of observation, I feel like I'm learning more about the game, becoming more aware of the challenges our team faces every game, and becoming a better fan.

So for sure, let's not make it personal ("so and so should be on the bench"). But I, for one, am very thankful for the insights provided on this board each and every game.

Thank you, and Happy Thanksgiving!

Neal

Wheat/"/"/"
11-26-2009, 08:44 PM
By the way- I think your Duke/UNC lineup is about right although I am expecting Dawkins to steal Travis Wear's spot in your top 8.

I thought about Dawkins, but decided I could slide Singler to the 2 spot and I like how Wear can catch, pass and defend for such a big guy. He's even played some time at the 3 and not looked that bad at 6'10.

I know many of you guys don't care, but he has really surprised me how fundamenally sound he is. If he only had Miles athleticism...or Miles had his fundamentals we'd have a player.

chrisheery
11-26-2009, 09:19 PM
Did anyone else cringe when Gotlieb called us "frighteningly unathletic" last night at half time (or something like that). I think it hurt so much becuase it looked true during the first half. Jay Williams tried to make it seem better by talking about Mason Plumlee, but I think he didn't know how to respond because he thought the same thing. I hope it was just the slow down game ASU brought to the table, but there is this nawing feeling inside me that Doug (who is always annoying) is right. I hate that.

Roscoe, you out there? Hello?

JaMarcus Russell
11-26-2009, 09:32 PM
Other than Zoubek, no one else really stuck out to me as matching Gottleib's description. I thought that it was a combination of Arizona State's zone defense and the fact that Smith and Singler chose to take jump shots in most situations rather than trying to create off their dribble.

For the most part, the game was played in half court, with very few opportunities for transition baskets except for a brief stretch in the second half. I would have liked to see more dribble penetration and interior passing, but I think the deficiencies were more a result of mental mistakes, settling for contested jump shots, and a couple of our guys just not having the necessary offensive skills, regardless of athleticism.

chrisheery
11-26-2009, 09:42 PM
Yeah, I rationalized it that way too. I just hope that is true.

I guess even if UConn had played ASU with that zone, they might have looked a lot slower and less athletic. The bothersome thing was that we didn't take advantage of the zone. We didn't offensive rebound well at all, we did not find the seams in the zone (as a veteran team should be able to do), and we did not shoot well at all. Any one of these things would have changed the game dramatically for the better. We did none of them.

Bob Green
11-26-2009, 10:56 PM
We didn't offensive rebound well at all, we did not find the seams in the zone (as a veteran team should be able to do), and we did not shoot well at all. Any one of these things would have changed the game dramatically for the better. We did none of them.

The only thing we did was win by double digits. Even with our 22.2% (4-18) performance on 3-pointers, in the ASU game, we are still second in the ACC in 3-point FG percentage at 42.0% (47-112). In the individual category, Andre Dawkins is 3rd in the league at 48.3% (14-29):

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2009-2010/confldrs.html

The team's performance might not have been aesthetically pleasing, but we won and advanced to the Championship Game.

mkirsh
11-26-2009, 11:19 PM
Other than Zoubek, no one else really stuck out to me as matching Gottleib's description. I thought that it was a combination of Arizona State's zone defense and the fact that Smith and Singler chose to take jump shots in most situations rather than trying to create off their dribble.

For the most part, the game was played in half court, with very few opportunities for transition baskets except for a brief stretch in the second half. I would have liked to see more dribble penetration and interior passing, but I think the deficiencies were more a result of mental mistakes, settling for contested jump shots, and a couple of our guys just not having the necessary offensive skills, regardless of athleticism.

I think the combination of Zoubek and Miles getting beat on dribble penetration after switches and our slow defensive rotations in the first half made us look less "athletic" than we may be, and I had to agree with Gottlieb at halftime. We all know that Miles is a good athlete, but when guarding on the perimeter his fundamentals aren't good so players can easily get around him which makes him look slower than he is.

ASU really hurt us with the pick and roll, so we should be prepared to see that the rest of the season. I know our defensive stats looked good in the second half, but I recall ASU missing a lot of relatively open shots on kick-outs from dribble drives. In past years when we played small coach K would switch all screens, but with more size this year we will have to play differently defensively and get better and hedge and recover.

Question for those more versed in X's and O's - on all the high screen and roll, Nolan fought OVER the screen at the same time Zoubek/Miles hedged, which Nolan had trouble with since he had to go over the screen and then around Zoubek/Miles as well. If we are going to hedge so much, why not have Nolan go under the screen so he can cut off the dribble drive easier, and have the hedge from the big take away the 3?

chrisheery
11-26-2009, 11:21 PM
The only thing we did was win by double digits. Even with our 22.2% (4-18) performance on 3-pointers, in the ASU game, we are still second in the ACC in 3-point FG percentage at 42.0% (47-112). In the individual category, Andre Dawkins is 3rd in the league at 48.3% (14-29):

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2009-2010/confldrs.html

The team's performance might not have been aesthetically pleasing, but we won and advanced to the Championship Game.

I agree that we won by double digits against a vastly inferior group of players. I agree that we shot the lights out against a bunch of teams that have amost no business being on the court with Duke. I agree that we did that at home.

As long as we are agreeing, can you agree that in our first game not at home, against a team with inferior (but not as inferior as the previous teams) talent, we looked pretty bad?

What bothers me is not the lack of athleticism, I still think that is highly debatable. Its the fact that we have a core of our team that has played 3 or 4 years of college basketball and we are still making mental mistakes. How did we not know how to attack a Herb Sendek zone efficiently? Why do we not get the ball inside when there were clear passing lanes?

I am also not trying to say that the sky is falling or anything. I just think instead of pretending it was a good showing, we should be looking for things to improve on. A group of players this smart and experienced shouldn't even need much coaching. They should know how to attack and tear apart a team like ASU.

Lord Ash
11-26-2009, 11:22 PM
The only thing we did was win by double digits. Even with our 22.2% (4-18) performance on 3-pointers, in the ASU game, we are still second in the ACC in 3-point FG percentage at 42.0% (47-112). In the individual category, Andre Dawkins is 3rd in the league at 48.3% (14-29):

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2009-2010/confldrs.html

The team's performance might not have been aesthetically pleasing, but we won and advanced to the Championship Game.

I think at least a little concern is with the idea that, against a top tier team, after having struggled against a good team, we will continue to have similar struggles, a few of which have helped contribute to let-downs in years past.

Personally the biggest thing for me is the return is Mason. Can't wait to see how the team is different then.

chrisheery
11-26-2009, 11:25 PM
Question for those more versed in X's and O's - on all the high screen and roll, Nolan fought OVER the screen at the same time Zoubek/Miles hedged, which Nolan had trouble with since he had to go over the screen and then around Zoubek/Miles as well. If we are going to hedge so much, why not have Nolan go under the screen so he can cut off the dribble drive easier, and have the hedge from the big take away the 3?

I am not sure anyone is going to be much more versed than you appear to be. I have the same question. The communication on those screens is the real issue. Athleticism can make up for poor communication, but if our guys had done what you suggested, they don't need to be great athletes to cover those ball screens much more effectively. As you pointed out, when Nolan fought over the screen, we ended up with two men on the ball and one man wide open in the lane. Alternatively, no one got to the ball and he beat the big man around the corner. Either way, not great defense, no matter how many open shots they missed.

Bob Green
11-26-2009, 11:29 PM
As long as we are agreeing, can you agree that in our first game not at home, against a team with inferior (but not as inferior as the previous teams) talent, we looked pretty bad?

Okay, I'll agree we didn't look good. The game against UConn should give us an indication of whether we played beneath our potential against ASU or whether we have some issues to work out. The point is I refuse to get too worked up over one game that we won by 11 points. My prediction is we will play much better against the Huskies.

chrisheery
11-26-2009, 11:52 PM
Okay, I'll agree we didn't look good. The game against UConn should give us an indication of whether we played beneath our potential against ASU or whether we have some issues to work out. The point is I refuse to get too worked up over one game that we won by 11 points. My prediction is we will play much better against the Huskies.

I sure hope you are right. For what it is worth, I predict we will play much better as well. Just pointing out some things that we clearly can and should improve on. If anything, it is a sign to me that this team has a good upside. I think Mason is a major part of how much upside we have.

Greg_Newton
11-27-2009, 12:23 AM
Okay, I'll agree we didn't look good. The game against UConn should give us an indication of whether we played beneath our potential against ASU or whether we have some issues to work out. The point is I refuse to get too worked up over one game that we won by 11 points. My prediction is we will play much better against the Huskies.

It certainly would be silly to get worked up just because we only won by 11... unfortunately, that's not what worries me.

I for one would be thrilled if we had won by 11 with Kelly getting 15 minutes, Miles getting 20-25 minutes, heck, maybe even Czyz getting a couple, and Kyle/Jon/Nolan each playing 32-35 minutes.

However, using a 7 man rotation and playing our best (not to mention completely irreplaceable) 3 players 40 minutes against a borderline top 50 team in November just makes me sick to my stomach. No matter how K may try to justify it, no matter how it's spun, it's just flat-out the wrong way to play it.

I pray, pray, pray that come February or so the Plumlees will have firmly established themselves as "Duke's frontcourt", and that Ryan Kelly is still a contributor. That is a dangerous team with potential. A team that follows the substitution pattern we saw Wednesday is not.

C'mon K, work with the assets you've got...

Ultrarunner
11-27-2009, 12:39 AM
Okay, I'll agree we didn't look good. The game against UConn should give us an indication of whether we played beneath our potential against ASU or whether we have some issues to work out. The point is I refuse to get too worked up over one game that we won by 11 points. My prediction is we will play much better against the Huskies.

I'm not sure we'll play better against the Huskies but we may look better. And everybody knows (at least on DBR today), it's not the W that counts, it's the style points.

Indoor66
11-27-2009, 08:02 AM
I'm not sure we'll play better against the Huskies but we may look better. And everybody knows (at least on DBR today), it's not the W that counts, it's the style points.

Yeah, maybe we'll get more dunks. I have the feeling that some on the board always drive to the back of the parking lot because they "know" that there are no spaces up front.

sagegrouse
11-27-2009, 08:41 AM
Yeah, maybe we'll get more dunks. I have the feeling that some on the board always drive to the back of the parking lot because they "know" that there are no spaces up front.

I agree.

All I know is that when I got one of the 4-5 parking spaces on Wannamaker Drive for my clunker, I never wanted to move my car.

sagegrouse

_Gary
11-27-2009, 08:58 AM
First off, as much as it pains me to say this, I have to agree with Wheat upthread where he mentioned that this game was the worst, defensively, that Duke has looked in a long time. It was pretty ridiculous how often ASU was getting inside on us. Especially in the first half. Really ridiculous.

Second, I also think we'll look better against UConn if for no other reason than the style of play. But that's the point. As of late, we've been allowing other teams to dictate style of play more than we've been able to dictate it. That's a big part of the battle and we've been loosing that one more than winning it over the last several years. I know Herb does one of the best jobs at controling tempo, so I'm not just referencing this one game. It's gonna happen from time to time. But honestly, it's happened more to us in recent years then I'd care to think about.

Third, I think if I was forced to name one issue defensively that has been a real bugaboo for us over the last several years it has to be our hedges and switches up top. We've gotten burned on that one play alone so often in recent NCAA's it's just not even funny. I know it's part of our overall defensive system but somehow Coach will need to find a way to deal with that so we don't have any more repeat performances of the ASU game. I'm guessing Mason will help in a big way with that issue. Hoping he will. But it's just really disheartening to see teams run that same thing over and over and over against us with the same results year in and year out. And of course our rotations and anticipations need to be better defensively as well. In one instance I saw a pass coming from a mile away from ASU's PG as he penetrated to the foul line. I know he's only a freshman, but Ryan was looking right at the ballhandler and should have been able to anticipate that pass and pick it right off. Just seemed we were off a little in that area the entire night with our bigs. Again, not to sound like a broken record but I've got to hope/believe that Mason coming back will shore that portion of things up (as well as help offensively with some high/low action).

Bottom line: I'm not sure we can get a real feel for this team with the younger Plumlee out of action right now. I do believe he's our 4th best player (with Andre coming on quick to probably be #5 at this point) and we'll look much better when he gets back into the lineup. Oh, and because Andre is moving up the ladder so quickly it was not a shock to me that we went small. Sure, it's not my favorite thing to see us run our big 3 out there for the entire game, but honestly... our bigs across the board just weren't getting the job done and we need to switch things up a bit. Frankly, I won't be surprised to see this development continue throughout the year. But we all need to hope and pray there are zero injuries from this point forward, especially to our top 7 or 8 guys. That's going to be critical. There is really no room for "error" in that category.


Gary

davekay1971
11-27-2009, 09:18 AM
I can't wait for the game today. We're playing a talented, athletic team today. If we somehow manage to overcome our alarming lack of athleticism, Coach K's utter ineptitude on the bench, and large white albatross that is Zoubek/Miles Plumlee, perhaps this team might even earn a little support and praise from the basketball savants that have picked them apart in this thread. :mad:

jv001
11-27-2009, 09:28 AM
I can't wait for the game today. We're playing a talented, athletic team today. If we somehow manage to overcome our alarming lack of athleticism, Coach K's utter ineptitude on the bench, and large white albatross that is Zoubek/Miles Plumlee, perhaps this team might even earn a little support and praise from the basketball savants that have picked them apart in this thread. :mad:

I agree davekay. You would have thought we lost to the evil empire by 40pts. I sure hope Brian Zoubek does not read the board. If he does, his confidence would have to take a hit. Let's go Duke..Beat unconn..and as always, Go Duke!

Ultrarunner
11-27-2009, 09:35 AM
First off, as much as it pains me to say this, I have to agree with Wheat upthread where he mentioned that this game was the worst, defensively, that Duke has looked in a long time. It was pretty ridiculous how often ASU was getting inside on us. Especially in the first half. Really ridiculous.

Hyperbole much?

Clemson, last year, score 47-74, shot 46.7 percent from the field.
Villanova, last year, score 54-77, shot 42.2 percent from the field
NC State, 2008, score 87-86, shot 54 percent from the field
Miami, 2008, score 95-96, shot 57.4 percent from the field.

ASU, score 64-53, shot 38.3 percent from the field. Someone else indicated that the percentage over the last 35 minutes was 31 percent indicating that maybe an adjustment was made after Lockett went off like a rocket. The purpose of defense is not to deny shots or block them. Those are results of techniques such as is pressure man-to-man, defensive rebounding, aggressive over-play or a zone. The purpose is to prevent scoring. Duke did that pretty well. It just didn't look pretty.


In one instance I saw a pass coming from a mile away from ASU's PG as he penetrated to the foul line. I know he's only a freshman, but Ryan was looking right at the ballhandler and should have been able to anticipate that pass and pick it right off. Just seemed we were off a little in that area the entire night with our bigs. Again, not to sound like a broken record but I've got to hope/believe that Mason coming back will shore that portion of things up (as well as help offensively with some high/low action).

And while I appreciate that you have excellent court vision on your big screen TV, Ryan is playing the game at floor level, under constant motion and doesn't have the responsibility of bird-dogging the point guard. He was also listening for defensive communications from other teammates, watching his assignment and maintaining position relative to the other people on the floor. So he may have missed that really obvious pass you saw coming because he was busy. He'll get better. That's the nice thing about having a great (though under-appreciated) coach.

NSDukeFan
11-27-2009, 09:43 AM
Third, I think if I was forced to name one issue defensively that has been a real bugaboo for us over the last several years it has to be our hedges and switches up top. We've gotten burned on that one play alone so often in recent NCAA's it's just not even funny. I know it's part of our overall defensive system but somehow Coach will need to find a way to deal with that so we don't have any more repeat performances of the ASU game. ... But it's just really disheartening to see teams run that same thing over and over and over against us with the same results year in and year out.
Imagine how teams that played Malone and Stockton for 15 years felt. My point is that the pick and roll, though not a new play, is not the simple play to stop that K can just easily "fix it." If run well, teams can have success against whatever the D does. See 1986-2000 Utah Jazz.


Bottom line: I'm not sure we can get a real feel for this team with the younger Plumlee out of action right now. I do believe he's our 4th best player ... But we all need to hope and pray there are zero injuries from this point forward, especially to our top 7 or 8 guys. That's going to be critical. There is really no room for "error" in that category.
Gary
I hope Mason has a great impact on our team, but I think he will take a bit of time to get up to speed. I would argue this is the year that we have the most room for "error" of the last several years, as our bench has quite a bit of talent and potential. We have survived Nolan's suspension and Mason's injury and (though I wouldn't know it from this thread) I believe we are still undefeated, granted to not the strongest opposition until tonight.


I can't wait for the game today. We're playing a talented, athletic team today. If we somehow manage to overcome our alarming lack of athleticism, Coach K's utter ineptitude on the bench, and large white albatross that is Zoubek/Miles Plumlee, perhaps this team might even earn a little support and praise from the basketball savants that have picked them apart in this thread. :mad:
One of my favorite posts of this thread, a very good 1000th post, IMO.

_Gary
11-27-2009, 11:25 AM
I've outlined my case already so all I'm going to say about the last 4 posts is that I beg to differ. I'm pulling for Duke 100% and believe we will do very well this year, barring injuries and assuming Mason is as advertised by both the coaching staff and insiders here whose opinions I do respect. But in no way, shape or form do I think we are in a position to lose one of our top 5 players for any long stretch and be alright because of "depth." No way do I believe that. I think some of the bench players will do great coming in as subs and giving our main guys a blow. But from what I've seen early on I think what we have is an obvious "Main 3", a "Best 5" (Kyle, Jon, Nolan, Mason, & probably Andre), and a solid 9 (Miles, Lance, Z and Ryan).

Oh, gotta address two points from Ultrarunner: 1) no, I was not using hyperbole. It was as horrible a half of Duke defense, especially the interior defense, as I've seen in a long time. 2) If you knew which play I was referencing I can't believe you'd make the comment you did about me seeing something Ryan couldn't. He knew where his man was and was able to see the ball as well. He simply didn't make the correct instinctive play by faking a shade toward the ballhandler and yet anticipating the passing lane. The replays made it clear he saw what was going on but simply didn't react quick enough on the play in question. It had zilch to do with me having a vantage point he didn't have. End of story.


Go Duke! :)

_Gary
11-27-2009, 11:28 AM
If run well, teams can have success against whatever the D does. See 1986-2000 Utah Jazz.

Are you comparing this ASU team to the 1986-2000 Utah Jazz teams? Wow!

Sorry, but I just had to point that out. Had Duke been playing against the Jazz I would have understood. They were not, thus some minor concern from a few of us.

NSDukeFan
11-27-2009, 12:13 PM
Third, I think if I was forced to name one issue defensively that has been a real bugaboo for us over the last several years it has to be our hedges and switches up top. We've gotten burned on that one play alone so often in recent NCAA's it's just not even funny. I know it's part of our overall defensive system but somehow Coach will need to find a way to deal with that so we don't have any more repeat performances of the ASU game. ... But it's just really disheartening to see teams run that same thing over and over and over against us with the same results year in and year out.
Gary

Originally Posted by NSDukeFan
If run well, teams can have success against whatever the D does. See 1986-2000 Utah Jazz.


Are you comparing this ASU team to the 1986-2000 Utah Jazz teams? Wow!

Sorry, but I just had to point that out. Had Duke been playing against the Jazz I would have understood. They were not, thus some minor concern from a few of us.
Sorry I didn't make my point very clearly. What I was trying to say was that 29 NBA teams over a 15 year period had trouble stopping the pick and roll even though they knew it was coming several times a game. I guess I thought that if all those teams were not that disheartened than maybe I would not be either if Duke sometimes struggled with that one play alone. I don't think that Duke is the only team that has at times struggled to defend that play.

jpfrizzle
11-27-2009, 12:57 PM
Am I the only one that thinks Dick Vitale jinxes the Blue Devils every time he's the announcer when we're playing?

Honestly I wish he would just STFU!!