Rotations when Mason comes back

[airowe]

With Mason out thus far we've seen guys like Rysn Kelly (who I admittedly underestimated) and Andre Dawkins get more playing time than they would have had Mason been in the game. Thankfully, those two guys have performed rather well and have proven themselves to be valuable cogs in a solid 8-Man rotation with a little Czyz sprinkled in.

When Mason comes back and gets up to speed both physically and mentally, we're looking at a solid 9-Man rotation with Czyz being a valuable 10th contributor.

Obviously, our Big 3 are going to play a ton of minutes and barring injury or foul trouble we're never going to see a time when none of them are on the floor. With the added depth of Mason, who do y'all see giving up more of their minutes?

Obviously, this depends on matchups, but do you guys see Mason taking away more minutes from our deeper front court or our more shallow backcourt? I'm projected Mason to play around 25 minutes a game.

[CDu]

With Mason out thus far we've seen guys like Rysn Kelly (who I admittedly underestimated) and Andre Dawkins get more playing time than they would have had Mason been in the game. Thankfully, those two guys have performed rather well and have proven themselves to be valuable cogs in a solid 8-Man rotation with a little Czyz sprinkled in.

When Mason comes back and gets up to speed both physically and mentally, we're looking at a solid 9-Man rotation with Czyz being a valuable 10th contributor.

Obviously, our Big 3 are going to play a ton of minutes and barring injury or foul trouble we're never going to see a time when none of them are on the floor. With the added depth of Mason, who do y'all see giving up more of their minutes?

Obviously, this depends on matchups, but do you guys see Mason taking away more minutes from our deeper front court or our more shallow backcourt? I'm projected Mason to play around 25 minutes a game.

I don't see Mason Plumlee cutting into Dawkins's time when he returns. I think the true wing players (Scheyer, Smith, Singler, and Dawkins) are going to get their minutes by virtue of both talent and lack of depth. Unless Dawkins really falls off as a shooter, he's going to get his 15-20 minutes per game on the wing.

I think Plumlee's minutes will come from Kelly, Czyz, and Thomas. I think that the return of Plumlee will bump Czyz out of the regular rotation (back to spot minutes and mop-up duty) and will cut slightly into Kelly's and Thomas's minutes at the 4. I don't mean that to be in any way a knock on the performance of those guys, who I think have played very well for us in Mason's absence. I just think that's the natural fit. I think we'll keep a big on the floor for 30-40 minutes, and we'll keep our four true wing players on the floor for 110-120 minutes. The remaining ~50 minutes will fall to Mason Plumlee, Thomas, and Kelly.

I'm thinking Plumlee will get ~15-20 minutes early as he works his way back in and ~20-25 once he's back in the flow (obviously that's just conjecture/speculation on my part though). But I'd suspect he takes the minutes from the guys who play the "4" spot rather than the perimeter guys. I think we're going to need that quickness when we get into tougher competition, so the four backcourt guys will keep their 110-120 minutes per game.

[-jk]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, who gets what minutes will depend in large part on matchups with the other team.

I would also point out that freshmen frequently look better in early games than they actually perform when games tighten up. Let's not raise expectations too high for them; we don't want any of them to crack.

Fortunately, we have a core of veterans to lead the way.

-jk

[MulletMan]

I think the one guy who is in least threat of losing minutes to MPII is Lance. Of the "bigs" (I don't think I'm including Kelly there... I don't know where he fits) on the team, Lance is the only one who can defend the perimeter. This gives him an advantage over the rest of the guys, as we all know that no matter what K says, when it comes down to it, we don't need no stinking zone!

I think that MPI will lose more minutes than Lance. However, I agree with -jk that matchups will dictate our lineup choices. When was the last time we could say that?!

[CDu]

I think the one guy who is in least threat of losing minutes to MPII is Lance. Of the "bigs" (I don't think I'm including Kelly there... I don't know where he fits) on the team, Lance is the only one who can defend the perimeter. This gives him an advantage over the rest of the guys, as we all know that no matter what K says, when it comes down to it, we don't need no stinking zone!

I think that MPI will lose more minutes than Lance. However, I agree with -jk that matchups will dictate our lineup choices. When was the last time we could say that?!

You could be correct, but from what I've seen of Mason Plumlee he's more of a complement to Miles Plumlee than a replacement. Therefore, I don't see Miles losing too many minutes to Mason. I think Mason will play more at the 4, with Miles and Zoubek continuing to earn most of the minutes at the 5.

I think the guy who takes the biggest hit is Czyz. He's tallied double-digit minutes in every game this year, but I think that ceases once Mason returns. I think 8-10 of Mason's minutes will come from Czyz's minutes. I think the rest will come from Kelly and Thomas. I don't think it'll be a lot of minutes from either. I'd say maybe ~10-12 minutes between the two, or maybe 8-10 and then 2-3 from Zoubek/Plumlee.

And obviously in any particular game, the distribution will be more fluid (due to matchups and performance). But on average, I'd say that Mason's minutes will come from the three guys who play primarily the 3/4 spots.

[Newton_14]

In the two games Mason played before the injury he played both the 4 and the 5 depending on which of the other bigs were in with him. During that time, of all of the bigs, Zoubs was the only one that played exclusively at the 5 which of course makes perfect sense.

MP1 and MP2 were used in both the 4 and the 5. But Lance and Kelly were used at the 3 and 4. It was an interesting rotation. But Duke does not have positions so what the heck am I talking about??:D

I expect K goes back to that. I think Kelly, Zoubs, Olek, and to a very small degree Lance will all see their minutes shortened a bit due to Mason.

Not to overstate the obvious but is this team versatile or what? There are sooo many ways K can choose to play with this group. If I am correct and Kelly can contribute when the competition stiffens, good things are ahead for this team.

On a side note, I have been to 4 games now and there have been numerous times where Coach K was giving instruction to Miles once he come out of a game. Not screaming or yelling or anything, just calm instruction with a pat on the back at the end. That is great to see in my opinion. Miles is important to the success of this team.

[jv001]

Not to overstate the obvious but is this team versatile or what? There are sooo many ways K can choose to play with this group. If I am correct and Kelly can contribute when the competition stiffens, good things are ahead for this team.

On a side note, I have been to 4 games now and there have been numerous times where Coach K was giving instruction to Miles once he come out of a game. Not screaming or yelling or anything, just calm instruction with a pat on the back at the end. That is great to see in my opinion. Miles is important to the success of this team.

I'm glad Coach K has to make the decision of whose mins get cut. I hope that it's not at Miles' expense because I do not want his confidence to take a hit. Miles has been playing very well and should improve. Last year he lost confidence and his play fell off. Don't want that to happen this year. Mason will probably be brought along slowly and the minutes will be increased accordingly. LT mins will not be cut much due to his playing good perimeter defense. After Mason gets back into game condition, he could give Kyle a breather. Having too many players is always better than not having enough. I like this problem. Go Duke!

[whereinthehellami]

While Duke has a decent to good frontcourt with a good mix of experience and some depth, alot of the players are foul prone. I would expect most of the frontcourt players to see action during ACC play for this reason. The other ACC teams with large frontcourts do not shoot FTs well so Duke's depth is a huge plus.

[Saratoga2]

Mason can play the 4 next to his brother or Zoubek. Miles can also play the 4 so there is flexibility on front court. Singler will probably get at least 30 minutes at the 3, so that leaves Thomas, Czyz and Kelly to fill in at the 3 and 4.

In my opinion, those guys will share the remainning time at the 3 and 4 based on the matchups presented by a particular opponent. Thomas is the quicker and more experienced defender but lacks the ability to contribute significantly to the offense. Kelly is a somewhat slower defender but appears to have the knack of offensive presence and can provide defense against many of the teams we will face. Czyz is the stronger of the three and is a very fine athlete. His overall game should improve this season and he definitely has a place in the lineup.

I like having depth this year. While our team is by no means perfect, we will also be playing against teams with still greater flaws. Tonight we should see how far this team has come as we face a better opponent.

[CDu]

Mason can play the 4 next to his brother or Zoubek. Miles can also play the 4 so there is flexibility on front court. Singler will probably get at least 30 minutes at the 3, so that leaves Thomas, Czyz and Kelly to fill in at the 3 and 4.

I think Miles Plumlee will play exclusively at the 5 this year, splitting time with Zoubek and Mason Plumlee (with Miles and Zoubek getting ~30-35 of the minutes at the 5). Due to the team's depth at the 3/4, I don't see Miles playing the 4 this year once Mason returns (unless there's foul trouble or injury).


In my opinion, those guys will share the remainning time at the 3 and 4 based on the matchups presented by a particular opponent. Thomas is the quicker and more experienced defender but lacks the ability to contribute significantly to the offense. Kelly is a somewhat slower defender but appears to have the knack of offensive presence and can provide defense against many of the teams we will face. Czyz is the stronger of the three and is a very fine athlete. His overall game should improve this season and he definitely has a place in the lineup.

I think Kelly, Thomas, and Mason Plumlee will split the time at the 4, and the 5-10 minutes per game at the 3 will be divided among those three and Dawkins (whenever Duke goes small for matchup reasons). I agree that Czyz has shown improvement, but I think he's the odd man out in this deep rotation. There are only around 50-55 minutes available there, and that doesn't really split very well four ways.

I think the rotation of Plumlee/Kelly/Thomas will depend on the matchups - specifically whether we need more offense, more defense, or whether we need a shooter to space the floor or an athletic player to attack the basket. Each brings a different weapon to the floor, and each makes for an interesting combination with Miles Plumlee or Zoubek at the 5.


I like having depth this year. While our team is by no means perfect, we will also be playing against teams with still greater flaws. Tonight we should see how far this team has come as we face a better opponent.

I agree. I like both the depth and the versatility. There are still the concerns (I'm hopeful that we're quick enough on the perimeter to handle better opponents), but I've been very impressed with the team thus far. I'm very excited to see us play tonight and again on Friday. It'll be nice to see how the team translates against better comp.

[Tim1515]

Olek is averaging 14.5 mpg....that won't continue.
If Z stays healthy i think he'll continue with 13-15 mpg...right now at 15.5
Lance may drop 2 or 3 minutes
Kelly a few
Kyle 1 or 2

At the same time we're basing minutes on what we expect Mason to be. Miles didn't play much at all as a freshman. Mason is projected to be better but maybe isn't as ready for playing early as Kelly and Dawkins were.

Also...for someone who loves to dunk everything he can...he might be a little hesitant to start.

I say he starts by getting 7-13 minutes and depending on how that time goes his minutes will increase.

[The Gordog]

Mason will probably be brought along slowly and the minutes will be increased accordingly. ... After Mason gets back into game condition, he could give Kyle a breather.

Not to nitpick, but I think if Mason is brought along slowly it will because he's a Freshman big man and it takes time to learn the system. Since his injury was to the wrist I am pretty confident he's still in game condition.

Agree that it's a nice 'problem' to have too many good players.

9F!

[phaedrus]

I think the one guy who is in least threat of losing minutes to MPII is Lance. Of the "bigs" (I don't think I'm including Kelly there... I don't know where he fits) on the team, Lance is the only one who can defend the perimeter. This gives him an advantage over the rest of the guys, as we all know that no matter what K says, when it comes down to it, we don't need no stinking zone!


While Lance is the only guy capable of guarding 1-5, and that versatility on D is certainly of value, we still lose interior defense and rebounding if Lance is on the floor instead of Zoubek and MP1. I think, depending on matchups, we'll continue to see one of MP1 and Zoubek on the floor most of the time, with Lance largely splitting minutes with MP2 (and Kelly, to a lesser extent). I expect Lance to continue to play significant minutes, though.

[-bdbd]

In the two games Mason played before the injury he played both the 4 and the 5 depending on which of the other bigs were in with him. During that time, of all of the bigs, Zoubs was the only one that played exclusively at the 5 which of course makes perfect sense.

MP1 and MP2 were used in both the 4 and the 5. But Lance and Kelly were used at the 3 and 4. It was an interesting rotation. But Duke does not have positions so what the heck am I talking about??:D

I expect K goes back to that. I think Kelly, Zoubs, Olek, and to a very small degree Lance will all see their minutes shortened a bit due to Mason.

Not to overstate the obvious but is this team versatile or what? There are sooo many ways K can choose to play with this group. If I am correct and Kelly can contribute when the competition stiffens, good things are ahead for this team.

On a side note, I have been to 4 games now and there have been numerous times where Coach K was giving instruction to Miles once he come out of a game. Not screaming or yelling or anything, just calm instruction with a pat on the back at the end. That is great to see in my opinion. Miles is important to the success of this team.

Have to pretty much agree with Boozer here. Expect him to eventually resume the role he had during the preseason. We are so thin on the perimeter, those four players' playing time is pretty safe. The natural thing to happen would be for some minutes to be sapped away from Olek, Zoubs and maybe Miles a little (and LT some). Expect that he won't jump right in and be playing 30+ minutes from day-1. K is likely to ramp up his time as we head into ACC play. Nice to have 2-3-4 weeks to re-introduce him to playing time, team chemistry, play sets, etc. before getting to real heavy ACC play.

Geez -- it is so nice to have this problem for once. As quoted from Coach K on another thread, LT is a "glue guy" and very flexible defender, so don't look for his minutes to drop a lot. Given that they all play mostly in the 4 or 5 areas, it is more likely that Mason's minutes are more interchangable with those of Miles, Zoubs, Olek (ok - he's more of a 3-4 guy, but has the least firm hold on playing time of these guys right now) and Ryan. Also, I agree with the poster who pointed out that match-ups will dictate a lot about playing time too. That said, in what way does Mason differ (in terms of match-ups) from Miles and Zoubs and Ryan? What sort of a player do you play Mason against more, as opposed to the type you'd play more of Miles? Ryan? Zoubs?

Just praying for no injuries in the THIN areas of this team. Knock on wood!!

-BDBD :eek:

[CDu]

That said, in what way does Mason differ (in terms of match-ups) from Miles and Zoubs and Ryan? What sort of a player do you play Mason against more, as opposed to the type you'd play more of Miles? Ryan? Zoubs?

Mason is thinner and a bit more perimeter-oriented than Miles. I see Mason as a 4 who can play the 5 in a pinch, whereas I see Miles as a 5 who can play the 4 in a pinch. Zoubek is obviously exclusively a 5. Kelly is a 4 who can play the 3 in an absolute pinch but shouldn't play the 5 at this point.

As far as matchups, I see it less as a specific player for them to match up against and more an issue of combinations at the 4/5 and team opponent. If the team needs a shooter to stretch the floor, Kelly is the guy at the 4. If the team needs a defensive presence at the 4, I'd say Thomas is the guy. If the team wants to be more athletic but with an offensive presence, then Mason is the guy.

[Greg_Newton]

The main thing I worry about with Mason when he comes back is strength. His main problem before the injury was taking it strong around the basket, and 4 weeks in a cast isn't great to that end.

A naturally wiry guy like him who seems to gain/lose muscle very easily could end up losing a lot of strength in that arm with a month of immobilization, and there may be an adjustment period between babying an injured limb 24/7 in a cast and barrelling fearlessly through defenders. I wouldn't be too surprised if it took him a good month or so to really get it going, and I just hope his confidence doesn't suffer in the meantime.

[aro24]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed elsewhere but I wanted to get others' opinions on how the rotation will change with Mason back in the lineup.

It seems that K has his 8 man rotation set now with: Smith, Scheyer, Singler, Miles, Zoubek, LT, Dawkins, and Kelly (to an extent)

Czyz has now been relegated to the bench and garbage minutes and knowing the coaching trends and history, I refuse to believe there will be a 9 man rotation with any signif minutes. Smith, Singler & Scheyer will get 30 + mins/game.
So my question is, will this addition to the lineup put Kelly beside Czyz or possibly take minutes from a combo of LT & Zoubs? Noting Miles's improvement, I am hoping not to see any mins taken from him. And seeing Kelly's high post passing ability and the re-insertion of a hi-low game, I would hate to see him completely relegated to the bench.

Don't get me wrong...I am pumped to see Mason play and I absolutely think this is a great addition to the lineup - just curious to see how the rotations/substitutions will change.......

Any thoughts?

ARo24

[JasonEvans]

My thought is that anyone who thinks K's "rotation is set" needs to brush up on their Duke history ;)

At this time last year, EWill was not playing in competitive games. Heck, he was not playing in games all the way up until February. And his case, while somewhat extreme, is not totally unprecedented at Duke.

The rotation is far, far, far from set at this point. Mason will get minutes, probably in smaller doses at first. I imagine it will come at Miles, Zoub, LT, and Ryan's expense for the most part but could impact everyone a little bit (as Jumbo so astutely pointed out in his Phase II post).

It is just still too early to know what kind of role Mason will play. Most of us expect it to be a large one, but how large and what impact it has on other players is just taking a stab in the dark for us at this point.

--Jason "I am very eager to see Mason in action this week, that's for sure" Evans

[airowe]

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18041&highlight=mason+rotation

[CDu]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed elsewhere but I wanted to get others' opinions on how the rotation will change with Mason back in the lineup.

It seems that K has his 8 man rotation set now with: Smith, Scheyer, Singler, Miles, Zoubek, LT, Dawkins, and Kelly (to an extent)

Czyz has now been relegated to the bench and garbage minutes and knowing the coaching trends and history, I refuse to believe there will be a 9 man rotation with any signif minutes. Smith, Singler & Scheyer will get 30 + mins/game.
So my question is, will this addition to the lineup put Kelly beside Czyz or possibly take minutes from a combo of LT & Zoubs? Noting Miles's improvement, I am hoping not to see any mins taken from him. And seeing Kelly's high post passing ability and the re-insertion of a hi-low game, I would hate to see him completely relegated to the bench.

Don't get me wrong...I am pumped to see Mason play and I absolutely think this is a great addition to the lineup - just curious to see how the rotations/substitutions will change.......

Any thoughts?

ARo24

This has been discussed heavily in another thread, but...

Firstly, the rotation is going to be fluid. But I think that (at least early in the season) it will involve 8 men. That could change as the season progresses obviously.

I think Mason's return puts Kelly on the bench. We'll rotate four bigs (with the minute distribution depending on matchups). Thomas may get an additional few (~3-5 maybe?) minutes per game at the 3 in situations where Dawkins is overmatched. But otherwise, I think the four bigs will play exclusively at the 4 and 5 spots. Kelly is, right now, the fifth man in the frontcourt. Thus, I think he joins Czyz as guys who we turn to in the event of serious foul trouble or injury.

Note that we've already seen this happen. In MSG, Kelly played sparingly (5 minutes each game) and Czyz played less than a minute combined. I think Plumlee's return will cut a bit into the other bigs' minutes and push Kelly into the same role as Czyz.