Weis/Notre Dame/Kevin White

[SoCalDukeFan]

It appears that Weis will be fired after the Stanford game.

A friend of mine took his wife and 2 of his sons to the UConn game at South Bend. He was able to get tickets from Notre Dame, so either it was not a sell out or people turned tickets back. Either should be a cause to concern to the school. My friend was an All Catholic League halfback in Philadelphia and knows football pretty well. He actually left at half time and walked the campus because ND was playing so poorly.

ND is, or course, handicapped by Weis' contract. If the rumors are true the buy-out is over $15 million. It is a little hard to pay $15 million to fire a guy and then hire a new guy who may not be any better.

Does anyone know the role Kevin White played in Weis' contract. I think he was ND AD when it was signed.

Thanks
SoCal

[HoopsFan]

Wow, he missed a great second half and OT, maybe the wife and kids aren't football fans.

[juise]

Every article I've read suggests that White gave Weis the contract. There has never been any mention of any other authority at Notre Dame contributing to that decision. This article (http://www.cnbc.com/id/21635348) is the closest thing I've found to analysis of the contract extension.

[sagegrouse]

The decision to fire Weis's predecessor, Tyrone Willingham, was made by the Notre Dame President-designate, John Jenkins and influential alumni and board members. Outgoing President "Monk" Malloy, who did not take part in the decision, criticized those involved as having a "Messiah Complex:" sure that the next coach would be the second coming of Knute Rockne. (A well-rounded individual, Monk Malloy played high school hoops in DC on a team with with John Thompson.)

While Kevin White made the announcement of Willingham's dismissal, I always assumed his decision to leave Notre Dame for Duke was due in part to decisions being made over his head.

As most of you recall, ND honchos were sure they could get Urban Meyer from Utah to come to Notre Dame. He wouldn't give them a sniff: this is not the 1940s, and Notre Dame and the Big Ten are some places in fly-over country that try to fill stadiums on Saturday.

Clearly, White was involved in filling the resulting football vacancy. I do not know the extent to which he led the search versus supporting a group of boosters who had all the answers -- right!

I would welcome those with better info or a different opinion on events at Notre Dame. But I don't think Kevin White is to blame for the mess at ND.

sagegrouse
'My sainted Irish grandmother in heaven (1879-1956) made me a Notre Dame fan, although my enthusiasm has flagged significantly in recent years'

[BD80]

... While Kevin White made the announcement of Willingham's dismissal, I always assumed his decision to leave Notre Dame for Duke was due in part to decisions being made over his head. ...

EVERYONE at Notre Dame has decisions made over his head.

They are fond of saying in South Bend: "God may not be a fan of Notre Dame football, but his Mom is!"

[OZZIE4DUKE]

On Sunday's Sports Reporters, Mike Lupica crucified Kevin White for the contract extension given Weis. He even said "how did this guy (White) ever get another job?" after he said that White was now the AD at Duke. Personally, I'm glad he is.

[throatybeard]

I think there was a little bit of race-related content in the Willingham/Weis change. Not that it was solely based on that, but that's it's a significant ingredient in the way things went. There was a lot of talk on message boards at the time about how Willingham "wasn't a Notre Dame guy" whatever that means, and how Weis better "fit the Notre Dame profile," whatever that means. Willingham also recruited the players who Weis did best with in his first season. I honestly don't know how good a HC Willingham is--he was great at Stanford and a mess at Washington. What I do know is they fired the Black guy after three years and kept the White guy, who had the same 3yr record, for 5 years.

And on Weis, I don't understand, unless they're the Red Sox or Yankees, how ND can afford to toss Weis at this point. Wilbon made the point that when you combine the buyout and the contract for--who?? Brian Kelly?--you're look at $45M or $50M, during a recession.

If you look at ND's sked next year, it's pretty favorable with few road games. I think they should keep Weis just to see what happens.

[JaMarcus Russell]

I don't know what Weis's buyout total is, but I believe that ND would only pay for the difference in salary between what he is scheduled to make at ND for the remainder of his contract and what he makes at his next job (most likely as an NFL OC). I bet there will also be some negotiation of the buyout, so the amount of money he gets from Notre Dame won't be quite as large it appears right now. Still, it will be a very hefty amount.

Also, I don't know how Lupica knows what went down in Notre Dame and whether White or someone else was the guy who dealt with Weis's contract. It isn't always the athletic director that makes these kinds of decisions, and I am sure that an informed poster on this site (for example, someone who went to ND for undergrad and Duke for Law School and follows both programs closely) would know more than a talking head on ESPN.

[BD80]

I think there was a little bit of race-related content in the Willingham/Weis change. Not that it was solely based on that, but that's it's a significant ingredient in the way things went. There was a lot of talk on message boards at the time about how Willingham "wasn't a Notre Dame guy" whatever that means, and how Weis better "fit the Notre Dame profile," whatever that means. Willingham also recruited the players who Weis did best with in his first season. I honestly don't know how good a HC Willingham is--he was great at Stanford and a mess at Washington. What I do know is they fired the Black guy after three years and kept the White guy, who had the same 3yr record, for 5 years.

And on Weis, I don't understand, unless they're the Red Sox or Yankees, how ND can afford to toss Weis at this point. Wilbon made the point that when you combine the buyout and the contract for--who?? Brian Kelly?--you're look at $45M or $50M, during a recession.

If you look at ND's sked next year, it's pretty favorable with few road games. I think they should keep Weis just to see what happens.

The race card is absolute horse-hockey. Ty's teams were getting absolutely BLOWN OUT at the end of his tenure. If he had been white he would have been gone earlier. Ty was absolutely phoning it in at the end, his recruiting was typically conducted on the golf course. This is what had the ND nation up in arms.

When CW arrived the freshman and sophmore classes were nearly empty. Thus he could compete in years one and two, but in years four and five (considering most players redshirt) his upperclass was barren. This takes the biggest toll in the offensive and defensive lines, ND's greatest weakness.

Ty is no longer a good coach, he bombed at Washington as well.

I am not saying CW is good, I think he is far too cocky and aloof for ND. The boards are also unkind to CW, who IS a Notre Dame guy.

I think any of us could coach ND to a winning season with next year's schedule. Should be a bonus for the next coach.

If you really think money is an issue, try counting the number of private jets that fly in for the USC game. Regis alone would probably write the buyout check.

[throatybeard]

Ty's teams were getting absolutely BLOWN OUT at the end of his tenure.

A complete falsehood.

The did get their butt kicked by USC, but who didn't that year? Their last two home losses were by 1 to BC and 3 to Pitt. They beat Tennessee, they beat both Michigan and Michigan State, as well as Stanford. It was an up-and-down 6-6.

None of that addresses what I brought up, this bizarre, coded discourse about how WIllingham (who had coached Stanford) was "not a Notre Dame guy" and Weis, an NFL coach, somehow was.

[El_Diablo]

you're look at $45M or $50M, during a recession.

Wait...how much do you think the buyout is worth?

[JaMarcus Russell]

I am assuming that the media is reporting the buyout at around 15 million or so, and it would probably take a contract similar to Saban's at Alabama (8 years, 32 million) to get a big name to ND.

However, because of what I posted about his buyout and the extended nature of his replacement's contract, the 45-50 million figure is certainly misleading.

[El_Diablo]

8 years, 32 million

Yikes. 8 years up front? You'd think they'd learn their lesson...

[BD80]

2001-2 Season

November 30 ND ranked #7 at #11 USC L 44-13
January 1, 2002 ND ranked #11 vs. #17 NC State (Gator Bowl) L 28-6

2002-3 Season

September 13 ND ranked #15 at #5 Michigan L 38-0
October 18 Home against #5 USC L 45-14
November 1 Home against #5 Florida State L 37-0
December 6 at unranked Syracuse L 38-12

2003-4 Season

October 2 Home against #15 Purdue L 41-16
November 27 at #1 USC L 41-10
December 28 vs. unranked Oregon State (Insight Bowl) L 38-21

In Ty's three seasons, ND lost nine games by 17 or more points. Average of those nine losses: 39-10. Notre Dame just wasn't used to getting smoked like that.

Ty quickly went downhill, starting 10-3 (with Davies' players), to 5-7, and then 6-6 and barely cracking the top 25. The last season ended with a 3 game losing streak.

Whether the firing was justified or not, the REASON he was fired was because it was thought that ND would get Urban Meyer. Race was not an issue.

[feldspar]

I don't get it. We can't talk about UNC (our archrival) on the basketball board, but we can talk about Notre Dame football??

Consider me perplexed...

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

Ty Willingham left what seemed like a great situation at Stanford to coach at ND. He was the first African-American coach in any sport at ND. Going from Stanford to ND is understandable, but why does he seem to snip at and beat up on Stanford whenever he can? I went to the ND-Stanford game where Ty was coaching ND, ND was up by a ton of points in the 4th Quarter and they faked a punt! He seemingly wanted to rub it in on Stanford. Does anyone know why? I thought he was treated well at Stanford.

Thanks.

GO DUKE!

[Buckeye Devil]

The decision to fire Weis's predecessor, Tyrone Willingham, was made by the Notre Dame President-designate, John Jenkins and influential alumni and board members. Outgoing President "Monk" Malloy, who did not take part in the decision, criticized those involved as having a "Messiah Complex:" sure that the next coach would be the second coming of Knute Rockne. (A well-rounded individual, Monk Malloy played high school hoops in DC on a team with with John Thompson.)

While Kevin White made the announcement of Willingham's dismissal, I always assumed his decision to leave Notre Dame for Duke was due in part to decisions being made over his head.

As most of you recall, ND honchos were sure they could get Urban Meyer from Utah to come to Notre Dame. He wouldn't give them a sniff: this is not the 1940s, and Notre Dame and the Big Ten are some places in fly-over country that try to fill stadiums on Saturday.

Clearly, White was involved in filling the resulting football vacancy. I do not know the extent to which he led the search versus supporting a group of boosters who had all the answers -- right!

I would welcome those with better info or a different opinion on events at Notre Dame. But I don't think Kevin White is to blame for the mess at ND.

sagegrouse
'My sainted Irish grandmother in heaven (1879-1956) made me a Notre Dame fan, although my enthusiasm has flagged significantly in recent years'

You must be kidding about the Big 10 being in flyover country and trying to fill football stadiums on Saturday. In 2009, attendance has been 5.5 million fans with an average crowd size of 72,000.

Granted, ND is in a rural setting but it is not that far from Chicago. The right man with the right connections can get ND back on the right track but it will probably never ascend to the heights of its former glory.

[slower]

I don't get it. We can't talk about UNC (our archrival) on the basketball board, but we can talk about Notre Dame football??

Consider me perplexed...

this is ONE ND thread, not multiple threads like UNC.

[sagegrouse]

You must be kidding about the Big 10 being in flyover country and trying to fill football stadiums on Saturday. In 2009, attendance has been 5.5 million fans with an average crowd size of 72,000.

Granted, ND is in a rural setting but it is not that far from Chicago. The right man with the right connections can get ND back on the right track but it will probably never ascend to the heights of its former glory.

Thanks for reading my post! I wanted to see who would rise to the bait.

But in reality, Notre Dame doesn't have dibs on the best college coaching candidates any more. Nor is the Big Ten and the Midwest home to the strongest teams.

sagegrouse

[Buckeye Devil]

Thanks for reading my post! I wanted to see who would rise to the bait.

But in reality, Notre Dame doesn't have dibs on the best college coaching candidates any more. Nor is the Big Ten and the Midwest home to the strongest teams.

sagegrouse

I never said that the Big 10 was home to the "strongest teams" or that ND could get the best of the college candidates. I merely disagreed with and refuted the notion that the Big 10 is in flyover country trying to fill college stadiums on Saturday and pointed out that the right man could make ND a credible program again.

[missfinch]

Back to White's role in the contract- what was his part in the extension 7 games (I think) into the first season?

[Double DD]

A complete falsehood.

The did get their butt kicked by USC, but who didn't that year? Their last two home losses were by 1 to BC and 3 to Pitt. They beat Tennessee, they beat both Michigan and Michigan State, as well as Stanford. It was an up-and-down 6-6.

None of that addresses what I brought up, this bizarre, coded discourse about how WIllingham (who had coached Stanford) was "not a Notre Dame guy" and Weis, an NFL coach, somehow was.

It's a reference to people who don't get the history and "mystique" of the school and program (TD Jesus etc.), kind of the same way I see some players referred to as "Duke players" on this board. It was a label that got applied to Willingham, White, and Bob Davie. Weis was an alumni who understood that whole aspect of coaching at Notre Dame.

Aside from that, from a coaching perspective, the new coach will walk into a much better situation than Weis did. Willingham was on his way to putting together the two worst recruiting classes in school history when he was fired, including just 2 OL commitments in 2 years. That disastrous 2007 was unavoidable because of the state he left recruiting in.

[diablesseblu]

It's my impression from some anecdotal information that Kevin White was in a very difficult position at ND re their "money men". There is a bit of a cabal among their fans -- headed by some exceedingly wealthy alums who are used to getting their way.

There's an excellent article in today's "New York Times" re the current AD at ND....and the position itself.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/sports/ncaafootball/25irish.html?_r=1&hpw

Sounds like he knew what he was getting into with the job and got some assurances that he would have more power than White did.

I was watching the "Sports Reporters" on Sunday when Lupica "popped off" about White. Thought it was very uncalled for and showed a lack of adequate information about the situation KW was in at ND.

[Double DD]

Sorry for another post, but I couldn't edit my earlier one. Getting back to the point of the thread, White negotiated all the terms of the contract, including length and money. It's hard to know where the idea first came from, and it definitely would have involved talking to the trustees and the school money, but he was definitely a player in that discussion.

I think the biggest gripe fans ND fans will tell you about White is that he didn't get Notre Dame and that it was reflected in his decisions. A warning that they would give is that if White's still around whenever Coach K retires, he might not get the atmosphere and philosophy that's been built around Duke basketball, and how to find a successor who can work with that.

[Defenserules]

I'm not sure why Willingham was not a ND man, but there is no racism involved in saying that Weis is a ND man. He literally went to ND for undergrad. It's like saying that Jeff Capel is an ND man but Coach (whoever else we might hire after Duke leaves) is not. It's just sort of a fact. Might have nothing to do witih how they coach but it is a fact that has nothing to do with race.

[juise]

It's like saying that Jeff Capel is an ND man but Coach (whoever else we might hire after Duke leaves) is not. It's just sort of a fact.

I like to think that Jeff is a Duke man, personally. ;)

[DukieInKansas]

I like to think that Jeff is a Duke man, personally. ;)

Picky, picky, picky! :D

[miramar]

I don't get it. We can't talk about UNC (our archrival) on the basketball board, but we can talk about Notre Dame football??

Consider me perplexed...

Well, Mike Brey is the ND basketball coach, and he used to be at Duke, so he's part of the same athletic department as Weis, so the topic is kind of related to Duke basketball. Sort of...

[missfinch]

There shouldn't be any real disagreement that it's time for Weis to go, and that he probably would have been gone sooner if not for the huge buyout. Part of that has to be the extension he was given when his only accomplishment was almost beating USC. On a Duke discussion board, it seems part of the conversation should be the role White- our current AD- played in that decision. Anyone have information in that regard? I would really be interested in hearing White's/ND's side of that deal.

[Devilsfan]

Notre Dame football? Oh yeah, it's part of American history. Key word being history. Many have said it's easier to get to the top than stay at the top. Thank goodness for Coach K and Coach Cut! One's already there and the other one is on his way there.

[SupaDave]

It's a reference to people who don't get the history and "mystique" of the school and program (TD Jesus etc.), kind of the same way I see some players referred to as "Duke players" on this board. It was a label that got applied to Willingham, White, and Bob Davie. Weis was an alumni who understood that whole aspect of coaching at Notre Dame.

Aside from that, from a coaching perspective, the new coach will walk into a much better situation than Weis did. Willingham was on his way to putting together the two worst recruiting classes in school history when he was fired, including just 2 OL commitments in 2 years. That disastrous 2007 was unavoidable because of the state he left recruiting in.

2007? TW's fault? Not true. Willingham couldn't recruit? Hmmmm.... 12 players from that 2006-2007 team signed pro contracts - which would have been at the end of Weis's second year. His staff should have been in the know - look no further than Duke's current team to see how a team is built in short measure. Notre Dame had many more pieces in place. Weis didn't want to run the ball and should've adapted his system which would have looked a lot like Air Force or Georgia Tech this year.

It's the 2009-2010 season - let's look at those 2007 recruits. The Irish added 18 players to its roster with high school recruits. Included in the class were five-star quarterback recruit Jimmy Clausen, nine four star recruits on offense, and four on defense. The class was named a top-15 class by most media. Hmmmm.... what has Weis done with THIS?