Z´s case

[DukieInBrasil]

Z is making a strong case for starting and/or getting more minutes. Just for argument's sake, compare his rebounding and scoring numbers to those of Miles and LT. If Z were playing their minutes, he would theoretically score about 12ppg and grab 13rpg along with 1.5apg, 1.5 steals and 0.4 blocks. That's a really impressive stat line. On a per minute basis, Z is putting up better stats than either LT or MiP.
LT and MiP, however, offer what Z can't, flexibility on D. If Z were to replace LT, Miles would have to slide over to guarding smaller (hypothetically) quicker players because Z just isn't that mobile. If Z replaced Miles as the starter, LT could continue guarding smaller players but then Kyle would have to defend the PF, which would defeat the purpose of trying to play him as a guard.
The D has been so stingy so far that I don't think K is itching to change it up too much. Offensive versatility wouldn't be altered too much by giving Z more minutes since none of LT, Z or MiP has even attempted a 3, although LT and Miles can hit jumpers from deeper than Z and can drive from the elbow better.
It is entirely possible that K doesn’t want Z playing too many minutes due to concerns about the health of Z's feet. It has often seemed that Z played like he lacked confidence in his game and as such I think K lacked a bit of confidence to play Z more extended minutes. Brian has made rebounding a priority, which allows him to play more to his strengths and he is now playing with more poise than before. I'm just observing that Brian's play to this point has been praiseworthy and that I wouldn't be shocked if K started him as a reward.

[airowe]

The problem with projecting Zoubek to play starters minutes is that you have not only extrapolate the good stats, but the bad ones as well.

He's average .22 fouls a minute. At this rate, Zoubek can't play more than 22 minutes a game before he fouls out...

[uh_no]

Z is making a strong case for starting and/or getting more minutes. Just for argument's sake, compare his rebounding and scoring numbers to those of Miles and LT. If Z were playing their minutes, he would theoretically score about 12ppg and grab 13rpg along with 1.5apg, 1.5 steals and 0.4 blocks. That's a really impressive stat line. On a per minute basis, Z is putting up better stats than either LT or MiP.
LT and MiP, however, offer what Z can't, flexibility on D. If Z were to replace LT, Miles would have to slide over to guarding smaller (hypothetically) quicker players because Z just isn't that mobile. If Z replaced Miles as the starter, LT could continue guarding smaller players but then Kyle would have to defend the PF, which would defeat the purpose of trying to play him as a guard.
The D has been so stingy so far that I don't think K is itching to change it up too much. Offensive versatility wouldn't be altered too much by giving Z more minutes since none of LT, Z or MiP has even attempted a 3, although LT and Miles can hit jumpers from deeper than Z and can drive from the elbow better.
It is entirely possible that K doesn’t want Z playing too many minutes due to concerns about the health of Z's feet. It has often seemed that Z played like he lacked confidence in his game and as such I think K lacked a bit of confidence to play Z more extended minutes. Brian has made rebounding a priority, which allows him to play more to his strengths and he is now playing with more poise than before. I'm just observing that Brian's play to this point has been praiseworthy and that I wouldn't be shocked if K started him as a reward.

not sure if you watch the games, but as many times as Z puts the ball in the bucket against some 6'2 guy, he fumbles a rebound, gets the ball slapped out of his hand, or mishandles the ball in some way.....not to mention fouling out in not that many minutes of play and not being able to box out guys a foot shorter than him.....yeah....when the play gets tough he'll back on the pine

[ElonIsRising]

I agree that Zoubek's productivity has increased throughout his career, however the point is null and void if he continues to stay in foul trouble night in and night out. K's hands are effectively tied when he is on the bench with 5 fouls in 14 minutes vs. the likes of Radford.

[jv001]

not sure if you watch the games, but as many times as Z puts the ball in the bucket against some 6'2 guy, he fumbles a rebound, gets the ball slapped out of his hand, or mishandles the ball in some way.....not to mention fouling out in not that many minutes of play and not being able to box out guys a foot shorter than him.....yeah....when the play gets tough he'll back on the pine

Because when conference play begins, we will need Zoubs to play some important mins. If he's getting the ball slapped out of his hands by a 6'2" guy then we could be in trouble. Last year was the first time he played healthy and he played much better. I am hoping for good senior years from LT and Zoubs. I'm not going to bash either this year. Go Duke!

[sagegrouse]

not sure if you watch the games, but as many times as Z puts the ball in the bucket against some 6'2 guy, he fumbles a rebound, gets the ball slapped out of his hand, or mishandles the ball in some way.....not to mention fouling out in not that many minutes of play and not being able to box out guys a foot shorter than him.....yeah....when the play gets tough he'll back on the pine

As he showed last year and in the first four games, Zoubs can be an effective performer against some teams for long stretches and against a lot of teams for short periods of time. Thus, he has a gaudy plus/minus stat, when his minutes are thus controlled.

I think the plan for this year (mine, anyway, although it may be K's) is for the team to really rock with MP1 and MP2 in the starting positions and for LT and Zoubs to play valuable minutes.

sagegrouse

[CameronBornAndBred]

He lightened his load this year and it shows. Regardless of if he starts or stays on the bench, I'll be sorry to see him go. Each year he has continued to get better and control what he can. I don't think he'll ever get over his clumsiness, it's inherant..so he will foul plenty and lose the ball when he shouldn't. S'ok...I'll still holler "Zoubs!" every chance I get.

[Kedsy]

not sure if you watch the games, but as many times as Z puts the ball in the bucket against some 6'2 guy, he fumbles a rebound, gets the ball slapped out of his hand, or mishandles the ball in some way.....not to mention fouling out in not that many minutes of play and not being able to box out guys a foot shorter than him.....yeah....when the play gets tough he'll back on the pine

You are allowing yourself to be deceived by the fact that Z and his game lack the aesthetically pleasing elements that most people expect in high level basketball players.

As I detailed in an earlier thread (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=332195&postcount=54), Z's per minute production was outstanding last year and is off the chart this year. In fact, if you look at the stats, most of the usual complaints about him turn out to be fiction:

* The guy was one of the top rebounders per minute in the ACC last year and this year averages almost 22 rebounds per 40 minutes. So, notwithstanding your slight against his boxing out skills, and while he may "fumble" a few rebounds away, he's still pulling in more boards than anybody else on the Duke team (and most other teams as well).

* His turnovers per 40 are only OK, but his numbers both this year and last are similar to Ed Davis's and better than Nolan Smith's, so it's not like the ball gets slapped out of his hands a disproportional amount. It's just perhaps when it happens to Z it's more readily noticed.

* While you didn't list this among Z's perceived inadequacies, I have often heard people say he can't dunk and misses a lot of close-in shots. But since his shooting percentage was close to 60% the past two years and is 65% so far this year, these criticisms are -- again -- misplaced due to a lack of style points.

* His plus/minus numbers were outstanding last year and even better this year, so whether you think so or not, the team is better off when he's on the floor.

Having said all that, Z's foul numbers need a lot of improvement (over 9 per 40 minutes). And it's possible that his per minute numbers are so good because K picks his spots with Z and only deploys him in advantageous situations. But it's also possible his per minute production and plus/minus figures would remain at a high level no matter who we play. We may find out over the course of the year or we may not. But either way the derogatory tone you use to describe Z and his game are, IMO, completely uncalled for.

Oh, and I do watch the games, by the way. I also happen to be capable of evaluating statistics and seeing the bigger picture. Perhaps you ought to try doing the same before denigrating one of our players.

[Devilsfan]

Give me a good old fashion Brand, Boozer or Shel for my money. That said I love the potential and improvement of the Plumlees, repectively. I can't wait to see them both out there together. I think that's our best chance of going deep into the tournament, not to mention it's our future.

[MChambers]

Give me a good old fashion Brand, Boozer or Shel for my money. That said I love the potential and improvement of the Plumlees, repectively. I can't wait to see them both out there together. I think that's our best chance of going deep into the tournament, not to mention it's our future.

Elton Brand isn't walking through that door, so enjoy what we have. Zoubs is a lot better than many of you seem to think.

[Troublemaker]

I like Z in his current backup center role. He can come in for 10-15 min/gm, go all out, crash the offensive boards and not worry too much about fouls. I think Kedsy nailed it when he wrote that Z's per-min and plus-minus stats are very good b/c he is used in advantageous situations. Miles, to me, is the better player and better fit for motion offense because he can move, but Z is effective in short bursts and against certain matchups. I think everyone is in the correct role right now.

[uh_no]

I like Z in his current backup center role. He can come in for 10-15 min/gm, go all out, crash the offensive boards and not worry too much about fouls. I think Kedsy nailed it when he wrote that Z's per-min and plus-minus stats are very good b/c he is used in advantageous situations. Miles, to me, is the better player and better fit for motion offense because he can move, but Z is effective in short bursts and against certain matchups. I think everyone is in the correct role right now.

/thread

[El_Diablo]

vs. the likes of Radford.

You mean against the 6-11/270 center averaging 25 ppg and 15 rpg so far? The reigning Big South Player of the Year and honorable mention All-American? The player who Coach K says will probably be a first round NBA draft pick? That guy?

[Newton_14]

You mean against the 6-11/270 center averaging 25 ppg and 15 rpg so far? The reigning Big South Player of the Year and honorable mention All-American? The player who Coach K says will probably be a first round NBA draft pick? That guy?

Exactly.

And like I said on Saturday. Pick any ACC team, and that Radford kid is their starting center on day 1. The dude is a flat out beast. So yes, the numbers Zoubs, and Miles put up Saturday did in fact happen against excellent competition. That was not a bad team that Radford trotted out there on Saturday. I would bet they win the Big South again this year.

[Spam Filter]

The thing about Zoubek is that he is at the same time productive and frustrating.

He by virtue of his size,gets his hands on a lot of rebounds, so why when so many of them he loses control of gets extremely frustrating, on the other hand, the ones he does manage to control is still a very good production. But because the ones he looks like he should get and doesn't, it makes the spectator focus on the missed opportunities rather than his actual production.

[roywhite]

I'm pleased that Zoubs has been productive and hope that he continues to contribute.

The whole team has been playing real well, including Miles Plumlee who has rebounded well, scored inside, and blocked some shots. And soon Mason will be returning from his injury and getting into action; most observers considered him a key piece and likely starter.

My question is this...if Zoubs is to get an expanded role and additional minutes, which players would deserve to get fewer minutes?

[Indoor66]

I'm pleased that Zoubs has been productive and hope that he continues to contribute.

The whole team has been playing real well, including Miles Plumlee who has rebounded well, scored inside, and blocked some shots. And soon Mason will be returning from his injury and getting into action; most observers considered him a key piece and likely starter.

My question is this...if Zoubs is to get an expanded role and additional minutes, which players would deserve to get fewer minutes?

Actually, none. I heard that K is petitioning the NCAA to lengthen the game to 50 minutes to have more to pass around. :o :D

[ElonIsRising]

You mean against the 6-11/270 center averaging 25 ppg and 15 rpg so far? The reigning Big South Player of the Year and honorable mention All-American? The player who Coach K says will probably be a first round NBA draft pick? That guy?

Yes. Thats exactly who I mean. The point is that Zoubek is a senior and has to learn how to play without constantly fouling if he wants more PT and help this team make a reasonable run in the tournament. Heck, if there is anyone he SHOULD be able to keep up with it is someone that is close to his size (ie not small and athletic). Anyone remember these lines:

MIN FGM-A FTM-A OFF REB AST PF PTS
S Williams 19 1-9 2-4 4 6 0 5 4
N Horvath 8 1-1 0-0 2 2 0 5 2
S Randolph 14 6-6 1-3 3 6 0 5 13

It is the box score from our centers in the 2004 final four vs. Uconn. Yeah, its an extreme example, but you don't win tourney games (expecially important ones against NBA caliber competition) when you foul out in 14 minutes.

Also, this is the guy that UNC manhandled in last years NCAA tourney by over 40 points and held to 10 points on 3-15 shooting. No Carolina players fouled out.

[OldSchool]

I agree that Zoubs is underappreciated for what he brings because he looks unathletic when he plays.

However, I would continue to start Miles while giving Z heavy minutes off the bench.

I think we kind of have an idea what Z's ceiling is, even though his development has been slowed by injuries and I expect this year to be his best year.

I strongly suspect Miles has a significantly higher ceiling than Z, so even though Z is playing quite well (apart from fouling), I would give Miles the starter's role to allow him to develop over the course of the season. I think Miles could be very good by the end of the season.

His shot, his coordination and his hops all seem better than Z. Given his hops, if he does prove to have good coordination Miles could end up being an outstanding shot-blocker.

And if he can consistently hit a 10-12 foot jumper, that gives us something Z doesn't have.

[OldSchool]

It is the box score from our centers in the 2004 final four vs. Uconn. Yeah, its an extreme example

That was a horribly officiated game, with obvious fouls going uncalled on Okafor and phantom fouls being handed against our guys. I don't think that was just my blue-colored glasses.

[DevilHorns]

That was a horribly officiated game, with obvious fouls going uncalled on Okafor and phantom fouls being handed against our guys. I don't think that was just my blue-colored glasses.

Please lets not dwell on this game. I still haven't gotten over it. Worst officiating ever.

[jipops]

You are allowing yourself to be deceived by the fact that Z and his game lack the aesthetically pleasing elements that most people expect in high level basketball players.

As I detailed in an earlier thread (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=332195&postcount=54), Z's per minute production was outstanding last year and is off the chart this year. In fact, if you look at the stats, most of the usual complaints about him turn out to be fiction:

* The guy was one of the top rebounders per minute in the ACC last year and this year averages almost 22 rebounds per 40 minutes. So, notwithstanding your slight against his boxing out skills, and while he may "fumble" a few rebounds away, he's still pulling in more boards than anybody else on the Duke team (and most other teams as well).

* His turnovers per 40 are only OK, but his numbers both this year and last are similar to Ed Davis's and better than Nolan Smith's, so it's not like the ball gets slapped out of his hands a disproportional amount. It's just perhaps when it happens to Z it's more readily noticed.

* While you didn't list this among Z's perceived inadequacies, I have often heard people say he can't dunk and misses a lot of close-in shots. But since his shooting percentage was close to 60% the past two years and is 65% so far this year, these criticisms are -- again -- misplaced due to a lack of style points.

* His plus/minus numbers were outstanding last year and even better this year, so whether you think so or not, the team is better off when he's on the floor.

Having said all that, Z's foul numbers need a lot of improvement (over 9 per 40 minutes). And it's possible that his per minute numbers are so good because K picks his spots with Z and only deploys him in advantageous situations. But it's also possible his per minute production and plus/minus figures would remain at a high level no matter who we play. We may find out over the course of the year or we may not. But either way the derogatory tone you use to describe Z and his game are, IMO, completely uncalled for.

Oh, and I do watch the games, by the way. I also happen to be capable of evaluating statistics and seeing the bigger picture. Perhaps you ought to try doing the same before denigrating one of our players.

In 4 games Z has posted rebounding numbers of 7, 5, 13, and 9. All off the bench. I don't care what the competition is, those are darn good numbers in limited minutes. The guy is bustin' his hump.

I think bringing up style points is a great point. Not much he does is pretty but he's very effective while he's in there. No way Z is going NOT going to be part of the regular rotation with the kind of production he's been providing. He's earned it.

[uh_no]

In 4 games Z has posted rebounding numbers of 7, 5, 13, and 9. All off the bench. I don't care what the competition is, those are darn good numbers in limited minutes. The guy is bustin' his hump.

I think bringing up style points is a great point. Not much he does is pretty but he's very effective while he's in there. No way Z is going NOT going to be part of the regular rotation with the kind of production he's been providing. He's earned it.


against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1....a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night....

[Dukeface88]

against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1....a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night....

He's averaging 8 points and 9 boards in 15 minutes of playtime. I'm not sure how you define that as not close to a double-double. Besides that, there was nothing pitiable about Radford's center.

Edit: Well, maybe his free throw shooting, although that makes Zoub's fouls somewhat more sensible.

[El_Diablo]

against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1....a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night....

What are you smoking?

Those numbers are GREAT for someone playing fifteen minutes per game. Keep in mind that he is often playing with Kelly or Lance (or both), along with Singler. They tend to eat up some rebounds too.

[Kedsy]

against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1....a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night....

And Z would be, if he got sufficient minutes. Maybe he doesn't get the minutes because he fouls too much, maybe it's because of Duke's frontcourt depth this season, or maybe K only wants to use him in certain situations. But when the guy is pulling down 22 rebounds per 40 minutes, you sound silly when you say he's not producing.

I would also say your statement that a 7'1" player should double/double every night is kind of silly, in light of the evidence over the years which clearly shows the vast majority of players that size don't average a double/double. Frankly, most of them don't come close.

[ElonIsRising]

That was a horribly officiated game


Okay, I'll give you that. That game drove me up the wall too. My point was merely that throughout his 3+ years at Duke, Z has been a foul waiting to happen. It sucks but is true, and his constant fouling has been and continues to be why he doesn't see minutes for extended periods of time.

To the OP's statement 'he deserves more minutes' -- he can't b/c he is always in foul trouble.

[jipops]

against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1....a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night....

You obviously have not watched any Duke games so far. Of course only two have been televised so I partially understand. His last output was 9 boards in 14 minutes mostly against a 270lb muscle mass center who would most likely start on any team in this conference and I'd be willing to bet is getting looks from scouts in the association.

These are rebound numbers while averaging about 15 minutes pg.

[El_Diablo]

Heck, if there is anyone he SHOULD be able to keep up with it is someone that is close to his size (ie not small and athletic).

This logic escapes me. Parakhouski is very good around the basket, is very athletic, and draws a ton of fouls. Did you not watch the game? If not, then I can understand why you would be so casually dismissive of "the likes of Radford"...but believe me, this guy is good down low.

Z does foul a lot, but I don't think one should expect him to foul LESS against Radford simply because the center is tall...

[sagegrouse]

Oh, and I do watch the games, by the way. I also happen to be capable of evaluating statistics and seeing the bigger picture. Perhaps you ought to try doing the same before denigrating one of our players.

I'll let the mods handle this outburst against my man "uh_oh," whose observations seem reasonable and not unnecessarily harsh. Like, uh_oh, I have been waiting for three+ years for things to click into place, which often happens late for seven footers. So far, we are still waiting, although all of us agree that Zoubs is highly productive in a limited role.

Have you considered that the "lack of aesthetically pleasing elements" may also be equated in the coaches' minds to "lack of basketball skills?" And maybe this is why Zoubek is playing only 15 minutes per game, even against weak competition and MP2 sidelined? K likes skilled and mobile players, who are not rooted to one position on the court.

Perhaps you think he should be playing much more, even with his acknowledged propensity to foul. Of course, averaging 3.5 fouls per 15 minutes of action would make it hard for even the most supportive coach to get Zoubs more than 20 MPG.

sagegrouse

[mgtr]

Neither LT nor Z have lived up to my own expectations, but they are what they are, and I am delighted to have their contributions. Imagine what we would have if they were not on the team.

[Genedoc]

Here are the Zoubek stats that matter most:

Charlotte - 16 minutes, 4 fouls
Radford - 14 minutes, 5 fouls
C. Carolina - 16 minutes, 2 fouls
UNCG - 16 minutes, 3 fouls

Extrapolating his stats to 35-40 minutes/game doesn't make any sense at all when he's shown no capacity to stay on the floor for more than the 15-20 he's getting.

Zoubek is a good player who is excelling in the role he's currently in. I'm pretty happy with that.

[MarkD83]

I know we like to dissect individual's numbers but when anyone person gets a rebound or foul it is due to other things on the court. The fact that someone has to keep Zoubs occupied because he is 7'1" gives our other big guys an opportunity to get rebounds and visa versa. When a guard gets beat on the perimeter the bigs have to go for the block which leads to fouls.

What I am pleased with our big men (perhaps it is due to the set-up of the defense) is that the fouls have meaning. They are when someone is near the basket. They are not the touch fouls covering someone 30 feet from the basket. Do I wish Zoubs fouled less? Of course. Am I glad that the fouls send a message close to the basket? yes.

[Oriole Way]

Honest question and request:

Could someone please provide Zoubek's splits for his numbers against non-conference opponents, and his numbers against ACC competition?

I could turn out to be wrong, but what I think I have observed over Zoubek's career is that he dominates weak competition and is a matchup player at best against ACC opponents. While Zoubek's numbers have improved, most likely due to the fact he is healthy and also more experienced, it's tough for me to read too much into his statistical production thus far because of how inferior our opponents have been.

Either way, I'd be interested to see the actual splits.

I hope Brian continues to improve, but I'm hoping for nothing more than a good-rebounding backup center who can play 8-10 solid minutes against ACC competition. I would much rather give minutes to the Plumlee brothers at Zoubek's expense so that they can develop as much as possible.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I actually like Zoubek's game. He has his limitations, but he is not a bad player and he can contribute in big games. He's been a little unlucky with injuries, but he's done nothing I've ever seen but work hard.

He has a couple of solid baseline moves, if he gets the time, and he is big and strong which forces the other centers to have to work inside. He doesn't give up anything easy. He can get the team some "garbage" put back points and alter or block some shots inside.

His problems are obvious after three years. He makes poor decisions. He is not quick, his hands are not the best, and he lacks brakes. That's where the fouls come from. He's like the super tanker that takes three miles to stop after it's underway.

Duke will get some nice minutes from him, but if you are counting on him against the better big men in the conference or the country, you are in trouble.

[Newton_14]

Say what you want about the big fella but he is a situational player who has contributed when called on in the last 2 years.

He turned that game last year in the ACC Championship against FSU with his defense on Solomon A. His defense helped trigger the big run in the first half.

And I am not sure we win the NCAA game against Texas without his defense on their 300 pounder either. He is not a star and never will be. But to state he is useless against good/great teams is not entirely true.. It is all about matchups for Zoubs..

[Kedsy]

I'll let the mods handle this outburst against my man "uh_oh," whose observations seem reasonable and not unnecessarily harsh. Like, uh_oh, I have been waiting for three+ years for things to click into place, which often happens late for seven footers. So far, we are still waiting, although all of us agree that Zoubs is highly productive in a limited role.

Have you considered that the "lack of aesthetically pleasing elements" may also be equated in the coaches' minds to "lack of basketball skills?" And maybe this is why Zoubek is playing only 15 minutes per game, even against weak competition and MP2 sidelined? K likes skilled and mobile players, who are not rooted to one position on the court.

Perhaps you think he should be playing much more, even with his acknowledged propensity to foul. Of course, averaging 3.5 fouls per 15 minutes of action would make it hard for even the most supportive coach to get Zoubs more than 20 MPG.

I wasn't advocating anything and I acknowledged that it would be hard to give him more minutes given his foul rate. Really, with all the frontcourt depth we have, if I were coaching I'm not sure if I'd give him more minutes or not. Instead, I was reacting to the quote below, which (whether or not uh_oh is your "man") in my opinion is quite harsh and not particularly reasonable at all.


not sure if you watch the games, but as many times as Z puts the ball in the bucket against some 6'2 guy, he fumbles a rebound, gets the ball slapped out of his hand, or mishandles the ball in some way.....not to mention fouling out in not that many minutes of play and not being able to box out guys a foot shorter than him.....yeah....when the play gets tough he'll back on the pine

Frankly, sagegrouse I find several of your observations harsh as well. When I watch Z he moves around a lot; in fact, sometimes when he lets himself get pulled out to the perimeter I kind of wish he'd stay home a bit more. But to say he's "rooted to one position on the court" or to suggest he lacks basketball skills is simply mean as well as inaccurate.

If his defense was so bad, his plus/minus wouldn't be so good. If he couldn't box out or he gave away so many rebounds, his rebounding per minute numbers wouldn't be the best on the team. If he mishandled the ball or let it get slapped away so often, his turnover rate wouldn't be better than Nolan Smith's. If he got blocked a lot or missed too many layups, his shooting percentage wouldn't be 65%.

He often looks awkward out there, and you appear to equate that with a lack of skills, but if he truly were so unskilled he wouldn't be able to put up the numbers he does in the small amount of minutes he gets. He's even a pretty good passer for a big man.

And he hasn't just shown it against weak competition. His per minute numbers last year were outstanding, including the entire ACC season.

As I said in my earlier post, it's completely possible his stellar per minute numbers are due to K correctly identifying the situations where Z would best perform and only playing him in those situations. In which case he's being utilized for exactly the right number of minutes. But just because he might not succeed in every situation is no reason to hate on him.

[Kedsy]

Honest question and request:

Could someone please provide Zoubek's splits for his numbers against non-conference opponents, and his numbers against ACC competition?

Not sure why you couldn't do this yourself, but last year his numbers were as follows:

Non-conference (including NCAAT), per 40 minutes: 18.3 pts, 12.9 rebs
ACC (including ACCT), per 40 minutes: 8.3 pts, 11.9 rebs


So, clearly he scored a lot more against non-conference opponents, but his rebounding was pretty similar and pretty good against both conference and non-conference opponents.

[speedevil2001]

zoubek is doing great coming off the bench...he fits that role as a bench player. i doubt giving more minutes to zoubek will help the team because it takes away minutes from Miles who is really developing well this season. I cant wait until Mason gets healthy.

[speedevil2001]

Z is making a strong case for starting and/or getting more minutes. Just for argument's sake, compare his rebounding and scoring numbers to those of Miles and LT. If Z were playing their minutes, he would theoretically score about 12ppg and grab 13rpg along with 1.5apg, 1.5 steals and 0.4 blocks. That's a really impressive stat line. On a per minute basis, Z is putting up better stats than either LT or MiP.
LT and MiP, however, offer what Z can't, flexibility on D. If Z were to replace LT, Miles would have to slide over to guarding smaller (hypothetically) quicker players because Z just isn't that mobile. If Z replaced Miles as the starter, LT could continue guarding smaller players but then Kyle would have to defend the PF, which would defeat the purpose of trying to play him as a guard.
The D has been so stingy so far that I don't think K is itching to change it up too much. Offensive versatility wouldn't be altered too much by giving Z more minutes since none of LT, Z or MiP has even attempted a 3, although LT and Miles can hit jumpers from deeper than Z and can drive from the elbow better.
It is entirely possible that K doesn’t want Z playing too many minutes due to concerns about the health of Z's feet. It has often seemed that Z played like he lacked confidence in his game and as such I think K lacked a bit of confidence to play Z more extended minutes. Brian has made rebounding a priority, which allows him to play more to his strengths and he is now playing with more poise than before. I'm just observing that Brian's play to this point has been praiseworthy and that I wouldn't be shocked if K started him as a reward.

0.4 blocks!!! r u sure thats right. seem a little low. i would think something like 2.5 blocks before consider starting him

[Kedsy]

0.4 blocks!!! r u sure thats right. seem a little low. i would think something like 2.5 blocks before consider starting him

Last year he had 2.72 blocks per 40 minutes. This year so far only 0.65 blocks per 40, but my guess is that will go up with a larger sample size (and the points and rebounds per 40 will go down, from 20 and 22 to probably around 14 and 14, although obviously that's just a guess).

[zdn_peanut]

I think we are getting too caught up in the numbers. Z is good in short spurts (the reason for the good numbers), but if he were given more minutes his conditioning would not be up to par. I'm not knocking him, but Z has a different body type and athletic make up that would not allow him to play 30 minutes/game even if he had zero fouls. He gives it his all when he is in there, whether it is points, rebounds, fouls or all of the above.

[NSDukeFan]

I agree that Zoubs is underappreciated for what he brings because he looks unathletic when he plays.

However, I would continue to start Miles while giving Z heavy minutes off the bench.

I think we kind of have an idea what Z's ceiling is, even though his development has been slowed by injuries and I expect this year to be his best year.

I strongly suspect Miles has a significantly higher ceiling than Z, so even though Z is playing quite well (apart from fouling), I would give Miles the starter's role to allow him to develop over the course of the season. I think Miles could be very good by the end of the season.

His shot, his coordination and his hops all seem better than Z. Given his hops, if he does prove to have good coordination Miles could end up being an outstanding shot-blocker.

And if he can consistently hit a 10-12 foot jumper, that gives us something Z doesn't have.
I don't disagree with any of your post, I just dislike that many people assume they know what Lance's and Z's "ceilings" are because they have seen them play the most. I tend to believe that players can still improve between their junior and senior years and during their senior years. That is something I really enjoy about college basketball; watching the players improve.

against pitiable teams, those numbers are not good for someone who is 7'1....a 7'1 guy in college basketball should be close to a double double every night....
Maybe we should just recruit 7 footers if they should all get double doubles every night.

Okay, I'll give you that. That game drove me up the wall too. My point was merely that throughout his 3+ years at Duke, Z has been a foul waiting to happen. It sucks but is true, and his constant fouling has been and continues to be why he doesn't see minutes for extended periods of time.

To the OP's statement 'he deserves more minutes' -- he can't b/c he is always in foul trouble.
Perhaps a little harsh? I believe Z has made lots of great contributions over his career and should not therefore be denigrated this way. I would rather say he is a rebound waiting to happen or a positive +/- waiting to happen.


Here are the Zoubek stats that matter most:

Charlotte - 16 minutes, 4 fouls
Radford - 14 minutes, 5 fouls
C. Carolina - 16 minutes, 2 fouls
UNCG - 16 minutes, 3 fouls

Extrapolating his stats to 35-40 minutes/game doesn't make any sense at all when he's shown no capacity to stay on the floor for more than the 15-20 he's getting.

Zoubek is a good player who is excelling in the role he's currently in. I'm pretty happy with that.
Are these really the stats that matter most? I kind of appreciate his fantastic +/- and rebounding numbers and feel they matter more. I would rather have a player with a great +/- and lots of fouls than a poor +/- with few fouls.

I believe this year is the offense is much, much better suited to Zoubek's strengths. We seemed to avoid using the post much last year, but are actively trying to pass the ball inside this year. We are also using a high-low passing attack and Zoubek is a pretty good passer so this uses one of his strengths as well. I don't think Zoubek is quick enough to take his man off the dribble from the high post like Kelly and Lance, but he generally makes good decisions and passes quite well.

I also think Z does a good job defensively of flashing on high screens for pick and rolls to give his teammate time to get around the screens. He presents a wide body to get around to prevent penetration. He may not be the quickest guy, but I have almost always, if not always, seen him really hustle to retreat to his man in those situations as well. Those would be the most difficult help side situations for Z (since he is so far from the basket), and he handles them reasonably well. If he is slow retreating this year, I like our chances of having another big down low to help him out inside. This is my long way of saying that having the Plumlees and Kelly paired with him defensively will also be good for him as well.

I don't at all disagree with Miles playing more than him and starting over him, but I also think Z will give us valuable production this year against all kinds of opponents playing 10-15 mpg. Since we have some great frontcourt players this year who will be playing many minutes, is it really a big problem if Zoubek plays 15 minutes, fouls a bunch and we outscore the opposition by a bunch during his time on the floor?

If you hadn't noticed I am a big Zoubek fan and look forward to his contributions this year.

[jv001]

Zoubs is a great weapon coming off the bench. He is not pretty but he does get the job done. Miles is playing real well and deserves to start. He can do many thing Zoubs cannot do. But we need Zoubs to come off the bench and play hard. That leads to fouls, but we can afford them. When Mason comes back I don't have any idea whose minutes go down. I hope that Zoubs plays the same amount of mins he's getting now. I'll leave that up to Coach K. But remember just because Brian's 7'1" does not mean he should avg a dbl/dbl. Not many players have done that no matter how tall they were. That's my 2cents worth. Go Duke!

[Genedoc]

Are these really the stats that matter most? I kind of appreciate his fantastic +/- and rebounding numbers and feel they matter more. I would rather have a player with a great +/- and lots of fouls than a poor +/- with few fouls.


You're welcome to appreciate whatever you like, but the foul stats cannot be ignored. They're the statistics that if accrued rapidly enough will disqualify the player from the remainder of the game. If you're getting 3-4 fouls per 15 minutes of game time, that renders the extrapolations this argument was based upon moot.

[NSDukeFan]

You're welcome to appreciate whatever you like, but the foul stats cannot be ignored. They're the statistics that if accrued rapidly enough will disqualify the player from the remainder of the game. If you're getting 3-4 fouls per 15 minutes of game time, that renders the extrapolations this argument was based upon moot.

Thank you for allowing me to appreciate whether we are winning or losing and how productive players are as more important than if guys are fouling out or not. If we are not expecting Zoubek to play more than 15 minutes a game, and we have the frontcourt depth that we do not need him more than that, and his rebounding and +/- numbers are great during that time, why does it matter if he gets 3-4 fouls during that 15 minutes, or even fouls out? For information purposes, over a larger sample size (last year), Brian fouled out once in 36 games (17 starts), with 71 fouls in 427 minutes or one foul every 6 minutes, which would allow him to play (on average) 30 minutes, well above what we are looking for from him this year.

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

We are all familiar with what Z's limitations are and I'm sure he knows his limits too. Yeah, it's frustrating to see him fumble away a rebound or miss a lay-up rather than dunking the ball. However, one positive thing I can truly say about Z is that he tries hard and I value anybody who gives it their all every time they hit the floor. You can see the frustration on his face when he makes a mistake but he never gives up and sometimes that desire to make a good defensive play may lead to yet another foul. If a man works hard and bleeds Duke Blue and supports his teammates like Z does, then by all means I'm going to support and encourage him to the max. Z may not be the best player but he always gives "his best" even though "his best" may be underappreciated by some.

[Tim1515]

I agree...Z looks clumsy at times and loses a few rebounds it seems other people would get...but the fact he's putting up good numbers despite those "mistakes" means he's getting his hands on more rebounds then everyone else to begin with.

Z's big issue IMO has been his agility. The ability to adjust to things on the fly. Some of this has to do with his build but a lot can probably be from his injuries.

He has no pressure right now and he's playing on a team with bigmen who can pass and score. I think he'll have a very good season for us in the 10-15 minute range.

[ncexnyc]

Since both Brian and Lance continue to get a solid amount of playing time I would have to assume that Coach K is happy with both their effort and for the most part the results.

We can discuss individual stats all we want, however let's remember this is a team sport and if one or two players accumulates a number of fouls in a short amount of time, that has a negative effect on the team as a whole.

[uh_no]

You obviously have not watched any Duke games so far. Of course only two have been televised so I partially understand. His last output was 9 boards in 14 minutes mostly against a 270lb muscle mass center who would most likely start on any team in this conference and I'd be willing to bet is getting looks from scouts in the association.

These are rebound numbers while averaging about 15 minutes pg.

or....i've been to every duke game...

[Kedsy]

We can discuss individual stats all we want, however let's remember this is a team sport and if one or two players accumulates a number of fouls in a short amount of time, that has a negative effect on the team as a whole.

Except Z's plus/minus numbers refute the idea that his fouls have a negative impact.


We are all familiar with what Z's limitations are and I'm sure he knows his limits too. Yeah, it's frustrating to see him fumble away a rebound or miss a lay-up rather than dunking the ball.

Tim1515 answered the fumbling thing rather eloquently (below). And a similar response can be made about his missed layups and lack of dunking, since Z is shooting 65% from the field this year (and shot close to 60% in each of the last two years).


I agree...Z looks clumsy at times and loses a few rebounds it seems other people would get...but the fact he's putting up good numbers despite those "mistakes" means he's getting his hands on more rebounds then everyone else to begin with.

Exactly.

I'm not trying to say Z is a superstar or anything, but I find it tiring to hear the same old myths about him repeated over and over (e.g., fumbled rebounds, missed layups, etc.).

Now I will attempt to stop repeating myself.

[AtlDuke72]

Except Z's plus/minus numbers refute the idea that his fouls have a negative impact.



Tim1515 answered the fumbling thing rather eloquently (below). And a similar response can be made about his missed layups and lack of dunking, since Z is shooting 65% from the field this year (and shot close to 60% in each of the last two years).



Exactly.

I'm not trying to say Z is a superstar or anything, but I find it tiring to hear the same old myths about him repeated over and over (e.g., fumbled rebounds, missed layups, etc.).

Now I will attempt to stop repeating myself.

I agree with what you say but would like to point out that you are wasting your time. Do not try to confuse the nay sayers with the facts. Zoubek loses every rebound to the 6'2" guys or fumbles them out of bounds regardless of the facts. He also is a foul a minute regardless of what the stats show. Don't you get it? He is over 7 feet tall and should get every rebound with no excuses since he is taller than every one else. it also doesn't count when he makes a lay up because at 7 feet he should be dunking every time he touches the ball.

[NYDukie]

Might as well throw my two cents in.

What I think we have here is a player for which the coaches must find what optimal role he can have both for the team and individually. Unfortunately, Z has had to also deal with some injuries but I think the staff has finally found what should be Z's ideal niche. This developing role of Z coming off the bench due to quality front court depth the team has not had in a while allows Z to provide them "quality" 15-18 minutes a game. What comes of it once we fact better competition on a regular basis remains to be seen. However, no longer does he have to pace himself to try to stay on the court nor have the pressure to do so. In addition, it appears Z has grown more into his body though there still seems to be that awkwardness that always seems to hinder at some point. Matchups will play a great role in his affectiveness also but if "we" as fans can temper our expectations and realize what we have here is a solid bench, borderline starter in Z that given his current role can produce a solid 15 minutes a game, then we can all be content in Z's contributions and get along here:)

[ncexnyc]

Except Z's plus/minus numbers refute the idea that his fouls have a negative impact.



Unfortunately this isn't true. Plus/minus numbers show the impact a player has on the team while he is on the floor, however once a player leaves the floor, say for a breather or in Brian's case after he's picked up 3 quick fouls, the remaining players (the team) are left to suffer the consequences.

The opposition gets to the bonus situation faster than it normally would have and that can have a dramatic effect on the game especially in close situations.

[Kedsy]

Unfortunately this isn't true. Plus/minus numbers show the impact a player has on the team while he is on the floor, however once a player leaves the floor, say for a breather or in Brian's case after he's picked up 3 quick fouls, the remaining players (the team) are left to suffer the consequences.

The opposition gets to the bonus situation faster than it normally would have and that can have a dramatic effect on the game especially in close situations.

These are both reasonable points. I would argue that this year the impact of your first point will be minimized because we have so many fine alternatives in the frontcourt.

[Tim1515]

I'm really not sure why people are negative with Z right now. Yes we haven't played great competition recently but he's having the best stretch of his career now that he's healthy. Duke will see its fair share of close games and maybe we'll get a better representation of how much Z improved.

It could very well be that Miles becomes the one who's fouls "hurt the team" and Z who comes in to help during important minutes.

[OldSchool]

I don't disagree with any of your post, I just dislike that many people assume they know what Lance's and Z's "ceilings" are because they have seen them play the most. I tend to believe that players can still improve between their junior and senior years and during their senior years. That is something I really enjoy about college basketball; watching the players improve.

I did not say that Brian has reached his "ceiling" and can no longer make significant improvement. In fact, my own view is quite the contrary in Brian's case.

I do think Miles's potential appears higher than Z's and that Mason's seems higher than Miles's. That assessment admittedly is based on a very limited foundation of observations in the case of Miles and Mason, but time will tell.

I think Brian still has substantial room for development as a basketball player for a number of reasons.

Keep in mind he is relatively young for his class compared to many athletes. Remember, Brian matriculated at Duke when he was only 17. Lots of athletes these days start college older than that - if I recall correctly Hansborough was about 35 years old when he arrived at UNC. And some people simply develop physically later than others of the same age.

This is the first year (because of injuries or whatever) that it seems to me that Brian has made great strides in his physical development in the offseason. He looks like he has significantly reduced his body fat and at the same time become stronger. What he did this year is what he needed to do in past years as well.

We all love to bench press, but for a basketball player, squats, plyos, sprints and agility training are much more important. As a young guy who only this past off-season was in a position to fully work on these, Brian, I think, still has much scope for improvement from this kind of work. He has good leg strength in terms of holding his ground, but not so good in terms of jumping. Because he is still a relatively young guy Brian can still, IMO, gain some improvement in his vertical leap through training.

Brian is a very intelligent individual. As the basics of playing basketball become more instinctual to him, he can turn his mind to improving at a higher level of sophistication and craftiness.

Call me crazy, but if Brian stays healthy I would not exclude a possible future in which after a couple of years playing pro ball in, say, Europe, he surprises everyone by how good a basketball player he develops into.

[jimsumner]

Where are we getting this idea that Zoubek can only play a few minutes without fouling out?

In his first three seasons at Duke, Brian Zoubek fouled out of exactly two games. He played 924 minutes and committed 151 fouls. That would, on average, enable him to play just over 30 minutes before accumulating five fouls.

That's not ideal but it's a far cry from the caricatures being presented here.

[DukieInBrasil]

You're welcome to appreciate whatever you like, but the foul stats cannot be ignored. They're the statistics that if accrued rapidly enough will disqualify the player from the remainder of the game. If you're getting 3-4 fouls per 15 minutes of game time, that renders the extrapolations this argument was based upon moot.

This thread began with the idea that Z could be putting up frankly astounding numbers were he to play Miles or LT´s minutes, roughly 22.5mpg, rather than the 15+ he is averaging now. As such, he would average pretty close to 5 fouls per game. As such it is not ridiculous to extrapolate his numbers to that level of PT because that would statistically be very nearly exactly the limit imposed by foul trouble that he could be on the court.

I am very pleased to read that Z has gotten quite a bit of support from Duke fans on this board, I have been a big Z fan and appreciate what he gives to this team. Z may be clumsy but he is effective. He may not dunk the bejeebus out of the ball every time he even thinks of touching it, but he shoots over 65% from the floor (FT shooting not so much) and grabs lots of rebounds despite the fact that some of them get away.

If Z finds himself reading these posts, what would be his take-away image? Our duty as fans is to make sure that his response would be positive, perhaps even encouraging him to improve on things or think of things in ways he hadn´t before. GO Z!!! GO DUKE!!!

[NSDukeFan]

I did not say that Brian has reached his "ceiling" and can no longer make significant improvement. In fact, my own view is quite the contrary in Brian's case.

I again agree with most, if not all, of this post. Sorry, I wasn't more clear in my earlier post. I didn't think you referred negatively to Brian having a ceiling, but seeing that word in your post made me think of other posts I have seen referring to Brian and Lance that way. My other pet peeve is "they are what they are," as I certainly haven't given up on seeing more improvement from them and think that any starters from a 30 win team obviously contributed. I agree with what you have said above about Mason and Miles perhaps more likely to have great improvements and that Brian also can still improve.

[CDu]

Are these really the stats that matter most? I kind of appreciate his fantastic +/- and rebounding numbers and feel they matter more. I would rather have a player with a great +/- and lots of fouls than a poor +/- with few fouls.

Yes, but the original post was suggesting that Zoubek is playing in a way that deserves more minutes. The response is the explanation that, while he's played really well in the minutes he's had, his foul totals are a big reason why he's not getting more minutes.

I think it's completely fair to discuss ALL the aspects of Zoubek's game (good and not so good). Simply citing his wonderful per-minute stats and arguing for more playing time ignores the fact that this season his foul trouble is the reason he doesn't get more time.

If Zoubek keeps playing well AND can cut down on the fouls, he'd likely warrant more minutes. But as long as he's committing three fouls per 15 minutes, we're going to have to settle for seeing him in small doses. Hopefully he can cut down on the fouls and maintain the excellent production that he's seen early this year.

[NSDukeFan]

Yes, but the original post was suggesting that Zoubek is playing in a way that deserves more minutes. The response is the explanation that, while he's played really well in the minutes he's had, his foul totals are a big reason why he's not getting more minutes.

I think it's completely fair to discuss ALL the aspects of Zoubek's game (good and not so good). Simply citing his wonderful per-minute stats and arguing for more playing time ignores the fact that this season his foul trouble is the reason he doesn't get more time.

If Zoubek keeps playing well AND can cut down on the fouls, he'd likely warrant more minutes. But as long as he's committing three fouls per 15 minutes, we're going to have to settle for seeing him in small doses. Hopefully he can cut down on the fouls and maintain the excellent production that he's seen early this year.

Yes, I looked back at the post I responded to and saw that's what was being discussed and I responded in an off-topic way, defending big Z. I don't expect Z to get much more than the 15 minutes per game he is averaging now, not because of him not being able to match up or foul trouble, but just because we will have so many options when Mason comes back. I could see him getting a few more minutes until MP2 is back, provided he can stay out of foul trouble.

[sagegrouse]

I wasn't advocating anything and I acknowledged that it would be hard to give him more minutes given his foul rate. Really, with all the frontcourt depth we have, if I were coaching I'm not sure if I'd give him more minutes or not. Instead, I was reacting to the quote below, which (whether or not uh_oh is your "man") in my opinion is quite harsh and not particularly reasonable at all.

Here's what uh_oh had to say on another thread:


As for the Greek night: several hundred people were let in regardless of affiliation, followed by the registered Greeks, followed by the rest of people. As an independent, I don't feel screwed. I just got there early to ensure I beat the frat rush.

Pure poetry -- he's my man.




From Kedsy:

Frankly, sagegrouse I find several of your observations harsh as well. When I watch Z he moves around a lot; in fact, sometimes when he lets himself get pulled out to the perimeter I kind of wish he'd stay home a bit more. But to say he's "rooted to one position on the court" or to suggest he lacks basketball skills is simply mean as well as inaccurate.

I didn't refer to your comments as "harsh," but rather uh_oh's comments as "not harsh."

K likes players who can move really well, as evidenced by his fascination with a Chris Bosh lineup at the Olympics. Zoubs seem pretty unsuited to that kind of game. Although my imagery in using "rooted to one position" may hearken to a player that stays planted under the basket, I didn't say or mean that.

Although we have had a heated discussion on this thread, I sense that most of us are in "violent agreement:" (a) Zoubs is effective playing 15 mins. per game. (b) His foul tendencies will prevent him from being a 30-minute player. (c) We would all like to see him be a smoother more coordinated player with a couple of good offensive moves, but it hasn't happened yet.

i leapt (unnecessarily, as it turns out) to uh_oh's defense because he is a brainy undergraduate, and you are a professional writer closing in on age 50. We should both be thankful we have some great basketball fans on campus. And let's have some fun on this site.

sagegrouse

[BD80]

Kedsy and uh_oh are good guys...

i leapt (unnecessarily, as it turns out) to uh_oh's defense because he is a brainy undergraduate, and you are a professional writer closing in on age 50. ...sagegrouse

I'll vouch for Kedsy, he is closing in on age 50







and a good guy. :D


Z's contributions will depend on match-ups. It is fair to say he is our strongest center, and thus better able to keep bigger centers from getting good position in the post. There are many large centers in the ACC where this will be valuable and earn Z extra minutes.

[ReformedAggie]

Z - aside from frequently looking like a zombie - still plays short. I might be a girl, but even I know if you bring the ball down under the basket some guy 6' is going to take it out of your 7' hands and do something mean with it. I like Z and wish he were all he could be. Maybe he should try meditation. As in oohhhm instead of OMG here we go again.

[MChambers]

What does Zoubs need to do to get a break from the refs? I only saw the second half, but 2 of the 3 foul calls against him were debatable, at best. On his third foul, the ASU point guard drove the lane, realized he had nowhere to go, jumped into Zoubek, and somehow it's a foul on Zoubek. On the 5th, sure seemed like a cheap call. Not a lot of contact.

[duke09hms]

does anyone else think last night's game against ASU should put Zoubs' case for more minutes to rest?

It wasn't like ASU had a great frontcourt either. It will be a bad sign for us if Z and Lance are playing more minutes than the Plumlees when Mason comes back.

[Kedsy]

does anyone else think last night's game against ASU should put Zoubs' case for more minutes to rest?

It wasn't like ASU had a great frontcourt either. It will be a bad sign for us if Z and Lance are playing more minutes than the Plumlees when Mason comes back.

I was at the game last night and though I admit he started slowly in his first couple of minutes, overall I think he played well.

His defense looked pretty good to me and he had 5 pts and 7 rebs in 17 minutes, so once again his per minute numbers were very solid. True, he fouled out in those 17 minutes, but as someone else noted a couple of those fouls looked pretty bogus.

So I don't think last night's game should change the conversation in any way, much less put anything "to rest."

[Kedsy]

I'll vouch for Kedsy, he is closing in on age 50

Thanks, BD, really appreciate that.

[Duke of Nashville]

If anything a thread should be created for Olek's Case.

Nolan was getting killed on ball screens during the ASU game and Zubek's "help" then made it look even worse. Zoubs has his flashes of, "Thank God," or "finally!" Do not get me wrong I love Zoubs but I also loved Casey Sanders.........

Olek could have matched up just as well against Boetang, and could have reached in just as well as Miles was....

[chrisheery]

I agree with a few things that have been stated and I will just list them one by one:

1. Zoubek is not a mobile guy that can guard people on the perimeter and really only seems to make things worse when he hedges screens and doesn't realize that Nolan or Jon has already gotten over/under/around the screen and he should retreat to the basket.

- (Stephen A. voice): Howeva, doesn't some of this fall into the lap of the coaching staff? I mean, when a guy is this deficient in an area, why do you keep putting him in a position to fail. He is 7 feet tall, he doesn't have to body the man at the three point line. If someone wants to shoot a fade away three over his outstretched hand, let them.

2. He fouls a lot, but he also gets some terrible calls against him. I think this is largely a product of his lumbering appearance of the court. Refs just assume he is going to foul. That said, if he just gave his man about 6" of space on the block, he wouldn't be in the position to be beaten so easily and get these cheap fouls. Again, he is 7 feet tall. Even on the post, give your man a half an arms length so he can't spin past you and use your length to make him shoot over the top. I didn't see a guy on the court shoot a turn around jumper or hook from the post last night. I don't know if they have it in their game because Zoubek just gave them the option of driving right by him by playing too close to them at all times. (Again, the coaches may be telling him to do this, which I think is a mistake)

3. Miles' ability to block shots is what separates him from Zoubek by . . . wait for it . . . Miles. There were two blocks that Miles got last night that led directly to points at the other end. Even when Zoub does block one, it rarely leads to a run out.

4. Zoub's +/- is great and that is hard to argue. However, every statistic can lie because it may be confounded by other variables we are not measuring. I suspect that if Zoubek actually played more minutes, his +/- might not be as good as it is. However, there is no way I could prove this, so you could easily ignore this.

5. Mason will add another dimension to this team. His rebounding, quickness, passing ability, shooting ability, and shot blocking are all a huge step up from even the best combination of these attributes from all of the next guys in the rotation behind him.

6. Olek could have contributed well in that game, I think. He is a stronger rebounder than Lance and quicker laterally than Zoubek and probably could have guarded any of the ASU's big guys with relative ease due to their middling size.

I don't think this was noted anywhere else, but where was Ryan Kelly? Why not set up the high-low offense with him and Miles? There were so many times Miles had his guy sealed and we just failed to deliver the ball to him. I think this has a lot to do with our lack of trust of our big guys, but I think it is inexcusable. Making him a threat and rewarding his hard work will pay huge dividends in terms of opening up our offense. I wish this would be a focus of our team in the early season. Our big guys could all learn that they don't have to make a great move when playing on the post, just turn and put it up. Our size advantage at every position should let us get a lot of offensive rebounds and shots from close in are much easier to predict in terms of rebounding than 3 point shots are.

[Duvall]

If anything a thread should be created for Olek's Case.


Olek who? Not Olek Czyz, surely.

Bear in mind that the same opponents that made Czyz look somewhat competent at times made Zoubek look dominant.

[chrisheery]

Olek who? Not Olek Czyz, surely.

Bear in mind that the same opponents that made Czyz look somewhat competent at times made Zoubek look dominant.

Dominant? We need to define dominant. Those teams made him look like a 7 footer playing agianst guys who were 6'6". I agree that Olek would have matched up better on defense in last nights game. I guess we will never know since he never got a chance.

[PhillyDuke]

If anything a thread should be created for Olek's Case.

Nolan was getting killed on ball screens during the ASU game and Zubek's "help" then made it look even worse. Zoubs has his flashes of, "Thank God," or "finally!" Do not get me wrong I love Zoubs but I also loved Casey Sanders.........

Olek could have matched up just as well against Boetang, and could have reached in just as well as Miles was....

I think Zoubs is underdeveloped as a player. I think he had great talent but we just didn't bring it out of him at Duke. Casey Sanders was another one who we didn't get his best.

I watch the old videos of the teams of the past on youtube, and honestly our current teams just don't have "it". It just makes me sad. What happened to us?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Anybody besides me think Zoubek has a better chance of playing in the NBA than Thomas? Just sayin' :)

Lots of frustration around because Coack K won't really play his bench and develope it.

I have the same sort of frustration with UNC. Roy is determined to push the ball, straight to 20 plus to's a game, when he has a team that could be stronger (imo) if he would just slow it down a notch and set the 1/2 court offense.
UNC is very hard to score on when the defense is set, but get beaten easily when out of position on To's. (Lot's of bigs to get beat off the dribble who depend on help). Why not slow it down with this particular team and limit the to's?

Oh well, those two coaches have proven themselves and have their ways, which they are unlikely to change.

We will just have to learn to live with them and the 25 + wins a year they seem to always get dispite their limitations :)

P.S. Casey Sanders had Roberto Duran hands. No coach can overcome that.

[sagegrouse]

Anybody besides me think Zoubek has a better chance of playing in the NBA than Thomas? Just sayin' :)



I have had thoughts that Zoubek may get some time in the NBA. He has some decent physical skills beyond height and wingspan. Big guys are often slow in developing coordination. He will certainly get tryouts.

I mean, who was the big galoot years ago at Georgia Tech that Laettner just wasted, who ended up with a huge NBA contract? (GT's archives go back only ten years.)

sagegrouse

[Devilsfan]

We'll see tonight. A true test of his abilities against a good opponent. Let's hope he has a good night.

[MChambers]

I have had thoughts that Zoubek may get some time in the NBA. He has some decent physical skills beyond height and wingspan. Big guys are often slow in developing coordination. He will certainly get tryouts.

I mean, who was the big galoot years ago at Georgia Tech that Laettner just wasted, who ended up with a huge NBA contract? (GT's archives go back only ten years.)

sagegrouse

Are you thinking of Geiger? What I really remember is the time Hurley was out, and Duke was playing GT in Atlanta. Coach K did a substitution, so that Grant Hill was the biggest Duke player on the floor, playing point. GT ended up with Geiger on Hill. You could see Hill's eyes get big when he saw the matchup. He drove and got fouled, but didn't make the hoop.

I agree that Zoubs may get an NBA shot.

[MChambers]

Anybody besides me think Zoubek has a better chance of playing in the NBA than Thomas? Just sayin' :)

Lots of frustration around because Coack K won't really play his bench and develope it.

I have the same sort of frustration with UNC. Roy is determined to push the ball, straight to 20 plus to's a game, when he has a team that could be stronger (imo) if he would just slow it down a notch and set the 1/2 court offense.
UNC is very hard to score on when the defense is set, but get beaten easily when out of position on To's. (Lot's of bigs to get beat off the dribble who depend on help). Why not slow it down with this particular team and limit the to's?

Oh well, those two coaches have proven themselves and have their ways, which they are unlikely to change.

We will just have to learn to live with them and the 25 + wins a year they seem to always get dispite their limitations :)

P.S. Casey Sanders had Roberto Duran hands. No coach can overcome that.

Boy, I agree with you on all of this, especially Casey and his Manos de Piedra.

[greybeard]

I agree with a few things that have been stated and I will just list them one by one:

1. Zoubek is not a mobile guy that can guard people on the perimeter and really only seems to make things worse when he hedges screens and doesn't realize that Nolan or Jon has already gotten over/under/around the screen and he should retreat to the basket.

.

Give the Arizona guys, particularly the guard with the big butt, some credit for coming into Zoubs in a way and at an angle that took him out of a natural return lane. This guard was very old school, played slow and used his body well not just in scoring, ie, his bump into Zoubs on the drive, but, as I mentioned, in disrupting the show-by-the-big off the screen plays. I also thought that, as a team, Arizona was deft at using their bodies off the dribble on offense, not in a rough or powerful way, just effectively. Very, very well coached; allows them to play above their "athleticism"--man, do I hate that word.

Zoubs could benefit from being softer through the spine and ribs. That would be huge. Huge! In my opinion, of course. ;)

[jv001]

Are you thinking of Geiger? What I really remember is the time Hurley was out, and Duke was playing GT in Atlanta. Coach K did a substitution, so that Grant Hill was the biggest Duke player on the floor, playing point. GT ended up with Geiger on Hill. You could see Hill's eyes get big when he saw the matchup. He drove and got fouled, but didn't make the hoop.

I agree that Zoubs may get an NBA shot.

Good post with positives about our Duke guys. It's one thing to give your opinion on what a Duke player did wrong, but to just trash him is another. I am sure some Duke players either read some of the things posted about them or are told of the things posted about them. I don't want to be the person that says something hateful/spiteful about one of our own guys and he reads it. If it were my son that was playing or my best friend's son I know I would not say anything to hurt that young man. That's just the way I feel and I'm sorry if some posters don't agree. So, Go Duke!

[NSDukeFan]

Zoubs could benefit from being softer through the spine and ribs. That would be huge. Huge! In my opinion, of course. ;)

Are you saying he would be better if he had osteoporosis?

[jv001]

Are you saying he would be better if he had osteoporosis?

Now that was funny..:)

[Devilsfan]

Manos de piedra, that's real good. But now it's more of the pies.

[sagegrouse]

Are you thinking of Geiger? What I really remember is the time Hurley was out, and Duke was playing GT in Atlanta. Coach K did a substitution, so that Grant Hill was the biggest Duke player on the floor, playing point. GT ended up with Geiger on Hill. You could see Hill's eyes get big when he saw the matchup. He drove and got fouled, but didn't make the hoop.

I agree that Zoubs may get an NBA shot.

Yep. It was Matt Geiger, who graduated in Laettner's year and was a second round draft pick. In three games against Duke his senior year, he played 17, 26, and 18 mins. with 5, 4, and 5 fouls. He averaged 6.0 pts. In the first of those games, he was totally lost against Laettner, who had 31 points.

In the NBA he played nine full seasons, and his last contract was for four years and $29 million. Not bad.

I am not predicting the same NBA career for Zoubs, but I believe he is as good as Matt Geiger was in college.

sagegrouse

[greybeard]

Are you saying he would be better if he had osteoporosis?

If your ribs and spine are rigid, and Zoubs are like they are a solid piece of bone, than so will your neck be. You lift your head with a stiff neck, and your weight goes to your heals. You try shooting it from there. Zoub's doesn't. He never just turns and shoots. How come?

You hold your ribs and spine rigid, what do you think it does to your arms which, hello, are connected to what little things. Hands, that's right boys and girls, don't be afraid to answer.

Your hold your spine and ribs rigid, see what it does to your ability to move your pelvis, to tip it forward and back, to lift one hip or the other. The pelvis is what, the power center and your center of gravity, that's right, keep them coming.

I could go on because we have not gotten into its impact on footwork (I have alluded to it by mentioning "center of gravity" but that might have been too subtle).

You have seen no one perform with grace and ease in anything with rigid ribs and a rigid spine. No one! Not possible. In my opinion of course. ;)

[CDu]

Yep. It was Matt Geiger, who graduated in Laettner's year and was a second round draft pick. In three games against Duke his senior year, he played 17, 26, and 18 mins. with 5, 4, and 5 fouls. He averaged 6.0 pts. In the first of those games, he was totally lost against Laettner, who had 31 points.

In the NBA he played nine full seasons, and his last contract was for four years and $29 million. Not bad.

I am not predicting the same NBA career for Zoubs, but I believe he is as good as Matt Geiger was in college.

sagegrouse

Geiger was a better player than Zoubek. He was less awkward, and it showed in his ability to generally stay out of foul trouble. Geiger averaged over 25mpg in his last three college seasons, and averaged over 15ppg with Auburn as a sophomore and over 11ppg on very guard-oriented GT teams as a junior and senior.

Geiger was quicker and more athletic than Zoubek, which is why he got drafted. He was clearly not as good as Laettner in college, but there's a large gap between Laettner and Zoubek obviously. Zoubek was a better rebounder, but has a lot more trouble with the speed of the college game than Geiger did.

That's not to say Zoubek couldn't get an NBA look. Being over 7'0" affords you more opportunities than most. I highly doubt he'll get there, but you never know.

[sagegrouse]

I would describe Zoubs's play against UConn as "ferocious." And when you are the tallest and strongest player on the court, ferocity is a really good trait.

The coaches have to be impressed with what Zoubs is bringing to the game, and I expect he will get as many minutes as his foul situation permits.

sagegrouse

[Devilsfan]

I think he gave them more than they expected against Uconn.