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JasonEvans
11-23-2009, 10:17 AM
2000 career points is a big deal. It represents continued excellence on the basketball court over pretty much your entire career. It takes a real stud scorer to get there in 3 years and generally is only achieved by players who not only play 4 seasons but who were strong enough as a freshman to give them a shot at it in their later seasons.

At Duke the list of 2000 point scorers is tremendously impressive. The list of guys who came up just short include studs like Art Heyman and Shane Battier (1984), Trajan Langdon (1974), Shelden Williams (1928), and Grant Hill (1924). The list of guys who got there is not long. I may be wrong, but near as I can tell it includes on 9 names-- Redick, Dawkins, Laettner, Gminski, Ferry, Alarie, Banks, JWill, and Spanarkel.

Coming into this season, Jon Scheyer had 1349 points scored in his career. That puts him 651 points shy of the very significant 2000 point barrier. Can he make it?

He has averaged a career best 16.5 ppg so far this season through 4 games. That gives him another 66 points. So, he needs to 585 more points.

How many games does Duke have left? We've got 27 in the regular season, 1-3 in the ACC tournament, and then however many more we get in (hopefully) the NCAA tourney. The number remaining is likely to be something in the low-mid 30s. Lets see what Scheyer would need to average to get to 2000 points based on how many games Duke has remaining.


Games PPG
27 21.67
28 20.89
29 20.17
30 19.50
31 18.87
32 18.28
33 17.73
34 17.21
35 16.71
36 16.25

It may be a tall order for Jon to get there, but it is not impossible, especially if Duke make a nice long run in the post-season.

--Jason "Singler will make it fairly easily if he comes back for his senior year, but I don't think he has a chance to make it this year" Evans

ncexnyc
11-23-2009, 10:27 AM
I'm doubtful that he reaches the mark and I base this on the fact that Jon isn't the focus of our offense.

From what I've seen so far, it appears that Nolan and Kyle will be our leading scorers this year and that leaves Jon with fewer chances in my mind.

JasonEvans
11-23-2009, 10:29 AM
Regarding Singler, he had 1060 points after his first 2 seasons at Duke. Very impressive. He has scored another 73 points so far this season by averaging a career best 18.3 ppg over our first 4 games. That puts him at 1133, 867 points shy of 2000.

But, here is why the 2000 point barrier is so hard to get to in 3 seasons. Here is what Kyle would need to average to get there based on the 27-36 game season Duke will have this year:


Games PPG
27 32.11
28 30.96
29 29.90
30 28.90
31 27.97
32 27.09
33 26.27
34 25.50
35 24.77
36 24.08

Considering we have played 4 fairly easy opponents and Kyle is only at 18.3 ppg, I think expecting him to score in the 25 ppg range the rest of the season may be a bit much.

I see this as yet one more reason he should come back for his senior campaign ;) He would likely put himself somewhere between Ferry (2155) and Gminski (2323) and be something like the 5th highest scorer in Duke history. Very impressive!!

--Jason "2000 point scorers are so rare because you have to be darn good early in your career but stay all 4 years... that does not happen much anymore" Evans

rskale7
11-23-2009, 10:32 AM
Would I like to see that? Yes. Do I think it will happen, maybe. Right now the scoring looks spread around. Jon may not make it.

flyingdutchdevil
11-23-2009, 10:41 AM
In all honesty, I don't see Scheyer making to 2,000 for a few reasons: first, he isn't the focal point of the offense. At Midnight Madness, K even said that Singler and Smith were going to be the 1st and 2nd options, not Scheyer. Second, I would be surprised - content, but surprised - if Scheyer kept up this scoring. With a ton of scoring options this year, that means that averages will generally go down. Also, with tougher defenses, we won't be scoring 100+ points in a game.

I think UCONN is a really good test for Jon. If he can dish out assists and still score 16+ points, then I really think that Scheyer can hit that mark. As of now, I'm a little skeptical.

sagegrouse
11-23-2009, 10:50 AM
John should average around 14-15 PPG, continuing his role as the distributor of the ball to Kyle, Nolan, Andre and the big dudes in the middle.

If he were to average much higher, it would be a very bad sign about the offense -- injuries or bad play elsewhere on the team.

sagegrouse

Jumbo
11-23-2009, 11:16 AM
In all honesty, I don't see Scheyer making to 2,000 for a few reasons: first, he isn't the focal point of the offense. At Midnight Madness, K even said that Singler and Smith were going to be the 1st and 2nd options, not Scheyer. Second, I would be surprised - content, but surprised - if Scheyer kept up this scoring. With a ton of scoring options this year, that means that averages will generally go down. Also, with tougher defenses, we won't be scoring 100+ points in a game.

I think UCONN is a really good test for Jon. If he can dish out assists and still score 16+ points, then I really think that Scheyer can hit that mark. As of now, I'm a little skeptical.

I don't think that's exactly what K said. Are you sure you're quoting him correctly and in proper context? FWIW, I thought Scheyer would average ~18 ppg this year. I haven't seen anything in the first four games to indicate that he can't do that. On the one hand, he was playing against better teams and it was easier to score. On the other hand, he was playing fewer minutes in a couple of the blowouts, and had to play without Nolan twice, forcing him to concentrate much more on distributing, rather than scoring. Plus, don't forget that in reasonably close games that we're winning, we get him the ball, and he gets fouled. So he's often able to tack on an extra 4 points at the end of a bunch of games.

In short, I don't see any reason why he can't average at least 18 for a full season -- he's a terrific player, either 1 or 1A for Duke and extremely valuable as a scorer. And given that I think he can score at that rate AND that Duke is poised to make a deep run, he has a strong chance to reach that 2,000-point mark.

Jumbo
11-23-2009, 11:17 AM
John should average around 14-15 PPG, continuing his role as the distributor of the ball to Kyle, Nolan, Andre and the big dudes in the middle.

If he were to average much higher, it would be a very bad sign about the offense -- injuries or bad play elsewhere on the team.

sagegrouse

Just wondering if it was a bad sign for the offense last year when he averaged 18.2 ppg during that 10-2 finish to the season ...

flyingdutchdevil
11-23-2009, 11:53 AM
I don't think that's exactly what K said. Are you sure you're quoting him correctly and in proper context? FWIW, I thought Scheyer would average ~18 ppg this year. I haven't seen anything in the first four games to indicate that he can't do that. On the one hand, he was playing against better teams and it was easier to score. On the other hand, he was playing fewer minutes in a couple of the blowouts, and had to play without Nolan twice, forcing him to concentrate much more on distributing, rather than scoring. Plus, don't forget that in reasonably close games that we're winning, we get him the ball, and he gets fouled. So he's often able to tack on an extra 4 points at the end of a bunch of games.

In short, I don't see any reason why he can't average at least 18 for a full season -- he's a terrific player, either 1 or 1A for Duke and extremely valuable as a scorer. And given that I think he can score at that rate AND that Duke is poised to make a deep run, he has a strong chance to reach that 2,000-point mark.

Can't find the video, but Jay Will interviewed K and Singler and K admitted that Nolan and Singler were the scorers who could take opponents off the dribble. He continued to talk about this for a while. While this doesn't mean that they would be the two highest scorers, I may have indeed read it like that. However, IMO, with 10 secs left on the clock and down by one point, I would rather have Smith or Singler take that last shot. Scheyer is much better in a team setting rather than one-on-one.

The last Duke player to average 18 points or more was JJ. I just don't see Scheyer averaging that many points - our offense is much more diverse now than it has been in a long time - that leads to lower point averages for everyone. That is better than a few scorers dominating the scoring (which was the trend since '04). Let's just say that given Scheyer's position, his physical limitations, and the balanced offense, I feel that him achieving 18ppg would be a pleasant surprise.

brevity
11-23-2009, 12:52 PM
Nice try, Jason.

"2K" may be the shortest title in the history of the Main Board, but it's still twice as long as "V".

Oh, and Scheyer would probably rather stay locked at 1,999 points and pass the ball to a teammate with a better shot, if it came to that. Any chance he sets some kind of points/assists record, though? Like, the first to score X number of points and Y number of assists? Not really sure where Jay Williams and (maybe) Grant Hill fit on that list.

Olympic Fan
11-23-2009, 12:55 PM
Interesting topic ...

Jason Williams is the only player in Duke history to reach 2,000 points in three seasons (2,079).

None of the other eight 2,000-point scorers would have made it without their fourth year. Well, the top three scorers (Redick, Dawkins, Laettner) all topped 2,000 in their last three seasons -- so if they had played in the non-freshman era, they might have made it.

Heyman missed by 16 points -- and he was suspended for three games in 1961 when he had the termerity to fight back when he was assaulted by Larry Brown and Donnie Wlash. He should have done it ... interesting that both Heyman and Battier scored 1,984 points in their careers -- Art did it in 79 games, Shane did it in 146 games.

In ACC history, the only seven players to get 2,000 points in their first three varsity seasons are:

David Thompson (2,309)
Buzzy Wilkerson (2,233)
Tyler Hansbrough (2,168) -- he added 704 as a senior for 2,872
Len Chappell (2,165)
Dennis Scott (2,115)
Len Rosenbluth (2,045)
Jason Williams (2,079)
Charlie Scott (2,007)

I'd be shocked if Scheyer gets there this season. Same with Singler -- he comes back as a senior and barring injury, he's a lock.

Wander
11-23-2009, 01:45 PM
I'd be really surprised if Jon hits 2000 points. Let's be just a little on the generous side and say that Duke wins the ACC tourney (or loses in the finals) and goes to the Elite 8 - according to JE, Scheyer needs to average more than 17 points per game to make it there. That's a lot out of your second best player for a team that doesn't figure to fast break a ton and looks to have a fairly balanced scoring attack.

Consider that last year every Elite 8 team had their 2nd leading scorer under 17 points per game. This includes UNC, who played faster than we will this year, and Oklahoma, who was more of a two-man team offensively than we will be this year.

Not impossible, but I'd feel pretty comfortable putting money on Scheyer not reaching 2000 points.

JasonEvans
11-23-2009, 01:51 PM
Nice try, Jason.

"2K" may be the shortest title in the history of the Main Board, but it's still twice as long as "V".


Oh, I'm fixing to tie the record. It will be a totally legit thread title too. You'll see. It will probably take me 2 days ;)

--Jason "worth noting, the V title was artificial after I pointed out the missed opportunity" Evans

Kewlswim
11-23-2009, 01:59 PM
Hi,

I doubt Jon or anybody playing for this unselfish (as Coach K referred to them) team cares about who is scoring the points. The team cares about winning, getting better, and making a deep run in March. If Jon scores no points, but is running the team with the precision of a scalpel that is what is important. I am so excited. I am starting to fall for this team. Granted, it has some holes and is thin, thin, thin at the guard spot, but oh my are they fun to watch. I think they are even having fun playing. Lots of recent Duke teams seemed, to me, a bit stiff and not showing much fun playing hoops with one another. This is a game and it is meant to be fun. Losing is no fun, but playing should be.

GO DUKE!

Kedsy
11-23-2009, 02:04 PM
I think they are even having fun playing. Lots of recent Duke teams seemed, to me, a bit stiff and not showing much fun playing hoops with one another. This is a game and it is meant to be fun. Losing is no fun, but playing should be.

My recollection of the 2006-07 team is that the players didn't look like they were having an exceptional amount of fun. But the 2007-08 team (who got to play the D'Antoni offense) and the 2008-09 team always appeared to be enjoying themselves. At least it appeared that way to me.

sagegrouse
11-23-2009, 02:27 PM
Just wondering if it was a bad sign for the offense last year when he averaged 18.2 ppg during that 10-2 finish to the season ...

Good point, Jumbo. But that was also Jon Scheyer rebounding from a horrible period of poor shooting.

The reason I don't think he will be a high scorer (18-20 PPG) are the contributions from the big dudes down low. I expect 35 PPG from the big guys (really: I hope, I hope). The four bigs last year had only 10 PPG last year.

Year to date and against weak opposition our five bigs (Zoubs, KT, MP1, Kelly and Czyz) are averaging 35.4 PPG. That will probably go down when the opposition improves. (IIRC Zoubs had 20 in his freshman debut against Columbia.) But, MP2 will also contribute his share when he returns.

My "I hope, I hope" is as follows:


MP1 - 10
MP2 - 10
Everyone else - 15


In that scenario, 13-15 for Jon Scheyer is just about right. And he could have a huge number of assists.

sagegrouse
'How the heck did we win 30 games last year with such a feeble inside game? Hmmm.... Maybe the coaching is pretty good here.'

shoutingncu
11-23-2009, 06:31 PM
John should average around 14-15 PPG... sagegrouse

The "h" is silent, right? ;)

JasonEvans
11-23-2009, 08:51 PM
Just so we are clear, plenty of you seem to doubt that Jon Scheyer will average even 15 ppg this season. Are you folks aware that he averaged 14.9 ppg last year and that was with the Duke offense revolving so much around Gerald Henderson. I just have a hard time seeing Jon averaging less points this year than he did last year.

I realize that 2K is a longshot for him. The odds are he will not get all the way up to 17+ ppg and that means we would need to make the ACC Finals and the Final Four for him to get to 2000. But, I am sure as heck going to be rooting for it.

Reaching 2K is a really rare thing in college basketball. While it is not nearly one of the more important things to root for regarding Duke this season, it is worth keeping an eye upon.

--Jason "not since JJ have we had one... and if Singler does not return it could be a long time until we get another one" Evans

Bob Green
11-23-2009, 08:57 PM
I realize that 2K is a longshot for him....But, I am sure as heck going to be rooting for it.

Reaching 2K is a really rare thing in college basketball. While it is not nearly one of the more important things to root for regarding Duke this season, it is worth keeping an eye upon.

I'll be right beside you rooting for Jon. I think it is very important for all Duke fans to cheer for Jon to reach the 2000 point milestone because the closer he gets the better the chances Duke is still playing in April.

And while I am a huge proponent of the "enjoy the ride" approach to being a fan, ultimately, playing in April is the goal.

YourLandlord
11-23-2009, 09:00 PM
Just so we are clear, plenty of you seem to doubt that Jon Scheyer will average even 15 ppg this season. Are you folks aware that he averaged 14.9 ppg last year and that was with the Duke offense revolving so much around Gerald Henderson. I just have a hard time seeing Jon averaging less points this year than he did last year.

But who else were our options last year? It's not like Gerald was putting up 50 a game. Scheyer, et al., had to score.

This year Singler and Smith will score a lot, AND we finally have a big inside game. 15 ppg is a lot of points.

The Duke offense that "revolved" around Gerald ended up with him averaging only 16.5.

camion
11-23-2009, 09:16 PM
The "h" is silent, right? ;)

It's not just silent. It's odorless and colorless as well. :)

kmspeaks
11-23-2009, 09:22 PM
It's not just silent. It's odorless and colorless as well. :)

Not to mention deadly :D

Wander
11-23-2009, 09:35 PM
Just so we are clear, plenty of you seem to doubt that Jon Scheyer will average even 15 ppg this season.

The difference between 15 and 17 is actually quite a bit over a long season, and it makes the subject kind of difficult to discuss intuitively. I'm not sure, but there might not be a single team from the NCAA tournament last year who had their second leading scorer averaging 17 ppg (as I mentioned earlier, there's definitely no teams that made the Elite 8). Think about that for a moment...

I'm not completely guaranteeing he won't reach 2000, but it's really, really, really, really unlikely (but, Jumbo, I'm like 99.5% willing to guarantee that Scheyer does not average 18 ppg or more). I'm also not saying he won't be relatively close - off the top of my head, seems like 1900 or so would be a fair number to do an over/under on.

Of course, none of this is criticism of his play. He's been spectacular.

mapei
11-23-2009, 10:07 PM
At worst, Jon is the second best player on this team, and I'm not positive he isn't the best. But I thnk 2000 points is highly unlikely, given all the factors people have noted. Also, Duke's scoring is going to go down as the season progresses and we face tougher defenses.

phaedrus
11-24-2009, 12:14 PM
The difference between 15 and 17 is actually quite a bit over a long season, and it makes the subject kind of difficult to discuss intuitively. I'm not sure, but there might not be a single team from the NCAA tournament last year who had their second leading scorer averaging 17 ppg (as I mentioned earlier, there's definitely no teams that made the Elite 8). Think about that for a moment...

I'm not completely guaranteeing he won't reach 2000, but it's really, really, really, really unlikely (but, Jumbo, I'm like 99.5% willing to guarantee that Scheyer does not average 18 ppg or more). I'm also not saying he won't be relatively close - off the top of my head, seems like 1900 or so would be a fair number to do an over/under on.

Of course, none of this is criticism of his play. He's been spectacular.

Of course, Shelden Williams was once our second-leading scorer with 18.8 points per game, and only 2 players on our current roster have ever averaged more than 8.4 ppg. Further, I don't know why everyone is treating Jon's 18.2 ppg average over the last 12 games of last season as a fluke. It wasn't. That was the toughest stretch of our schedule.

That said, Nolan should of course substantially top 8.4 ppg this season, and we should have better all-around scoring than the 05-06 team. I would pencil Jon in at 16-17 ppg, but would not be surprised at all to see 18 out of him.

YourLandlord
11-24-2009, 12:50 PM
I would pencil Jon in at 16-17 ppg, but would not be surprised at all to see 18 out of him.

This is really just silly.

# of '08-'09 ACC (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/leaders?groupId=2&cat=scoring&sort=AVG&seasonYear=2009) players who averaged above the following # of points:
18: 6
17: 8
16: 11

There are 12 teams in the conference. On average, less than 1 player per team averaged 16 points for the year.

With a team with as many scoring options as Duke has this year, outside AND inside, "penciling in" Jon for 16 points a game (your lower bound!) doesn't make any sense.

I think 12-14 points per game, with a good number of assists, would be a great great season for him and for Duke.

Jumbo
11-24-2009, 01:01 PM
This is really just silly.

# of '08-'09 ACC (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/leaders?groupId=2&cat=scoring&sort=AVG&seasonYear=2009) players who averaged above the following # of points:
18: 6
17: 8
16: 11

There are 12 teams in the conference. On average, less than 1 player per team averaged 16 points for the year.

With a team with as many scoring options as Duke has this year, outside AND inside, "penciling in" Jon for 16 points a game (your lower bound!) doesn't make any sense.

I think 12-14 points per game, with a good number of assists, would be a great great season for him and for Duke.

I don't see how it is "silly" when Jon averaged 15 ppg last season, including 18.2 over that final, 12-game stretch, on a team that included Gerald Henderson. Unlikely? Maybe. Silly? Not at all. If he were to average only 12 ppg this season, I'm sure he and Coach K would be disappointed. And Duke would not be successful. I'm not sure why some people don't recognize a) how good he is and has been and b) that he needs to be a major scoring threat for this team.

phaedrus
11-24-2009, 01:38 PM
With a team with as many scoring options as Duke has this year, outside AND inside....

Come again? We have some exciting new players, but it's going to take more than early-season games to show that the likes of Dawkins, Kelly, and the Plumlees have earned enough scoring opportunities to (a) entirely compensate for the loss of Henderson and (b) take away scoring opportunities from the team's highest career scorer, Scheyer.

Let's not forget that we might, indeed, score even more than last year's team. And I can't even contemplate why you think it's silly to think that a senior Jon Scheyer might be one of the 11 highest scorers in the conference.

Jumbo
11-24-2009, 10:45 PM
Come again? We have some exciting new players, but it's going to take more than early-season games to show that the likes of Dawkins, Kelly, and the Plumlees have earned enough scoring opportunities to (a) entirely compensate for the loss of Henderson and (b) take away scoring opportunities from the team's highest career scorer, Scheyer.

Let's not forget that we might, indeed, score even more than last year's team. And I can't even contemplate why you think it's silly to think that a senior Jon Scheyer might be one of the 11 highest scorers in the conference.

Good to have you back -- haven't seen any posts from you in a while.

Exiled_Devil
11-28-2009, 10:44 AM
I think that this stat is going to be a great metric for the season, and thought I would put up a spot to track it here on the boards.

Unfortunately, its not an easy stat to get a handle on. Different locations have different numbers for assists and turnovers - its a small variability now (Scheyer has either 4 or 5 or 3 TO's on the season, for example) but could get bigger. I'll try to find a couple of sites to track - probably goduke and espn. If anyone has any other possibilities, let me know.

Interestingly, there is a basketball stats tracking website that seems to omit any reference to Duke.

Here are Jon's cumulative A/T numbers for the first 5 games of the season:

According to espn.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=31709)


Game Assists T/O A/T Cumulative Ratio
UNCG 4 0 ~ 4/0 -
Coastal 5 0 ~ 9/0 -
Charlotte 5 0 ~ 14/0 -
Radford 7 0 ~ 21/0 -
ASU 5 1 ~ 26/1 26
UCons 5 2 ~ 31/3 10.3

It will certainly go down, but a 10.3 puts Jon in the top...well, near the top. A shoddy internet connection at the beach and an alarmingly unpopular stat make it hard to get the exact ranking.

camion
11-28-2009, 11:00 AM
Jon's assists are holding steady at about 5 per game while his turnovers are increasing at the rate of 1 per game now that we're playing real teams like ASU and UConn. Extrapolating that to the end of the season means that he will be committing around 25 turnovers per game by tournament time.

Isn't math wonterful? :p

oldnavy
11-28-2009, 11:38 AM
Jon's assists are holding steady at about 5 per game while his turnovers are increasing at the rate of 1 per game now that we're playing real teams like ASU and UConn. Extrapolating that to the end of the season means that he will be committing around 25 turnovers per game by tournament time.

Isn't math wonterful? :p

"Lies, Damn Lies and statistics" - D'Israeli

Bob Green
11-28-2009, 11:42 AM
The official stats have Jon with a A/T of 8:1. Jon has 32 assists and 4 turnovers:

https://www.nmnathletics.com//pdf5/659057.pdf?ATCLID=204840999&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Richard Berg
11-28-2009, 01:10 PM
Not bad. Especially since his 2 turnovers against U-Con consisted of
* scrambling to retrieve an errant cross court pass, somehow wrangling it in, but stepping on the sideline in the process
* a sketchy offensive foul called as he was trying to bring the ball upcourt against Dyson, whose rough brand of pressure got him 2 fouls of his own, and who missed the resulting free throw

Exiled_Devil
11-28-2009, 01:49 PM
The official stats have Jon with a A/T of 8:1. Jon has 32 assists and 4 turnovers:

https://www.nmnathletics.com//pdf5/659057.pdf?ATCLID=204840999&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Huh.

Looking through the Goduke stats for each game, I get the same numbers as ESPN.

I'm going to try and see where the discrepancy is.

Exiled_Devil
11-28-2009, 02:24 PM
Huh.

Looking through the Goduke stats for each game, I get the same numbers as ESPN.

I'm going to try and see where the discrepancy is.

ESPN, CBS Sportsline, and Go Duke all coincide.

NCAA.com doesn't have the NIT games yet, but I'll check that later.


10.3 A/T puts Scheyer at #3 in the NCAA, with many more assists than others in the top 10. (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/stats/playersort/NCAAB/ASTTO/ALL/regularseason/yearly)

Bob Green
11-28-2009, 02:39 PM
Huh.

Looking through the Goduke stats for each game, I get the same numbers as ESPN.

I'm going to try and see where the discrepancy is.

The link I provided is the season stats from GoDuke.

Jumbo
11-28-2009, 02:52 PM
Huh.

Looking through the Goduke stats for each game, I get the same numbers as ESPN.

I'm going to try and see where the discrepancy is.

I think this might be the problem:

GoDuke PDF of game (https://www.nmnathletics.com//pdf5/658807.pdf?ATCLID=204840623&SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200) (usually official): Scheyer 6 AST, 2 TO.

GoDuke "stats" of game (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204840689) -- should be the same as PDF: Scheyer 5 AST, 1 TO.

ESPN.com box from game (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=293290150) -- appears to be same as the non-PDF version: Scheyer 5 AST, 1 TO.

Definitely confusing.

tele
11-28-2009, 09:15 PM
Maybe the discrepancy is whether it was a turnover on the play he stepped on the out of bounds line. I didn't think it was a turnover on Scheyer if he was already out of bounds when he caught the ball, it would be a turnover on the player who threw the ball out of bounds. But if Scheyer caught the ball inbounds and then stepped out of bounds, his TO. It looked to me like the ref said his foot was on the line when he caught it and then he moved away from the line. I doubt he was even out of bounds at all, but I'm biased.

darthur
11-28-2009, 09:41 PM
So, Jon got 21 assists in a row without a turnover. Out of curiosity, how often do you think this happens? A couple times a year? More, less? I have no idea.

Bob Green
11-29-2009, 04:42 AM
Here are the official ACC stats:

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2009-2010/confldrs.html

They also reflect Scheyer with 32 assists and 4 turnovers for an 8:1 ration, which is first in the conference. Ish Smith is second at 3:1.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-29-2009, 08:40 AM
Scheyer easily the early season leader for ACC POY.

Exiled_Devil
12-04-2009, 01:34 PM
Adding in Wisconsin numbers (4/1 according to goduke's pdf boxscore)

We have 36 assists to 5 TO's. Which brings John down close to 7/1.

Still tops in ACC. Dropped to...er, stayed at #2 in the NCAA (extrapolating from NCAA.com weekly records (http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rankings) that don't have this weeks game yet.)

Scheyer is still over-delivering on what pundits expected of him as a PG

Jumbo
12-15-2009, 08:24 PM
Updating this watch, which is still a long-shot, even after tonight's game. With 36 points tonight, though, he's now at 162 for the season, which puts him exactly at my target of 18 ppg. Scheyer is now at 1,511 for his career, so that's 489 to go. Let's do a breakdown Jason's way, and we'll assume that Duke plays a minimum of one ACC Tourney game and one NCAA Tourney game. (Obviously, we'll all hope for nine total games in those two tourneys.)

25 more games = 19.56 ppg for 2,000
26 games = 18.81 ppg for 2,000
27 games = 18.11 ppg for 2,000
28 games = 17.46 ppg for 2,000
29 games = 16.86 ppg for 2,000
30 games = 16.3 ppg for 2,000
31 games = 15.77 ppg for 2,000
32 games = 15.28 ppg for 2,000

Exiled_Devil
12-15-2009, 09:45 PM
Adding in Wisconsin numbers (4/1 according to goduke's pdf boxscore)

We have 36 assists to 5 TO's. Which brings John down close to 7/1.

Still tops in ACC. Dropped to...er, stayed at #2 in the NCAA (extrapolating from NCAA.com weekly records (http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rankings) that don't have this weeks game yet.)

Scheyer is still over-delivering on what pundits expected of him as a PG

So I missed St John's update - 6 and 0 for a total of 42 and 5, ratio of 8.4

Tonights game adds 9 assists and 3 TO's for a total of 51 and 8,

Assist/TO ratio of 6.375.

A little more human, but still the top A/TO ratio in division 1 (http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rankings) if everyone else stays the same.

MarkD83
12-15-2009, 10:42 PM
Its a shame that we don't have an athletic point guard that can score. :)

uh_no
12-15-2009, 10:46 PM
Its a shame that we don't have an athletic point guard that can score. :)

I love jon, and all, but there will be nights when he will be cold, and when he's cold, I hope his ability to provide others with scoring opportunities more than compensates for his shortcoming

NSDukeFan
12-16-2009, 11:37 AM
I love jon, and all, but there will be nights when he will be cold, and when he's cold, I hope his ability to provide others with scoring opportunities more than compensates for his shortcoming

Based on 3+ years of heady play, including a fairly long shooting slump last year and a couple of poor shooting games this year, Jon's ability to provide scoring opportunities for others, defend, rebound and lead, will IMO easily compensate for Jon's "lack of athleticism" during a shooting slump.

JasonEvans
12-16-2009, 01:20 PM
Thanks for the updated list, Jumbo.

People need to recognize what a significant accomplishment this would be. Yes, it is probably still a longshot (though making the ACC Title and the Final Four would really help), but it is a really big deal.

-Jason "2000 points does not come around often" Evans

Bob Green
12-16-2009, 01:55 PM
I echo Jason's thanks to Jumbo for updating this thread. Following Jon Scheyer's quest for 2000 points is going to be exciting. With his level of play through the first nine games of the season, Scheyer has to be generating some buzz for ACC POY and All America consideration. He is a great player and we are all very fortunate to be able to enjoy watching him play!

Billy Dat
12-16-2009, 02:09 PM
It's remarkable that any starting Duke PG would fly under the radar but that is exactly what is happening with Scheyer. I think the stink of that Villanova game has carried over and unless Duke goes very far this year, there is a chance that Jon won't get his due...which would be a travesty.

However, if that assist to turnover ratio stays as gaudy as it is through the first half of ACC play, I think he can't help but get more national attention and praise. Right now the perception is still, "he's PG by default".

JasonEvans
12-16-2009, 03:51 PM
However, if that assist to turnover ratio stays as gaudy as it is through the first half of ACC play, I think he can't help but get more national attention and praise.

His ATO of 6.4-to-1 is off the charts good. It is an absurd number. You just don't see ATOs like that.

By comparison, the #2 ATO in the ACC is Drew II at 2.3 followed by Ish Smith at 2.2 and Miami Frehsman Durand Scott at 2.0. Scheyer could commit a dozen turnovers with no assists over the next couple games (as if!!) and still comfortably lead the conference in this statistic.

I checked the other major conferences (BCS) and here are how other top players rank in ATO so far this season--


Name Ast TO ATO
John Scheyer, Duke 5.7 0.9 6.4
Tory Jackson, NDame 5.1 1.1 4.7
Tyler Smith, Tenn. 4.1 1.0 4.1
Korie Lucious, Mich St 4.5 1.1 4.1
Dogus Balbay, Texas 5.2 1.3 3.9
Barry Stewart, Miss. 3.0 0.9 3.9
Ben Hansbro, NDame 5.0 1.5 3.4
Taylor Jordan, Wisc. 3.3 1.0 3.3
Derek Glasser, Ariz St 5.6 1.8 3.1
Chris Kramer, Purdue 3.1 1.0 3.1
Diante Garrett, IowaSt 6.0 2.0 3.0
Chris Bass, LSU 3.0 1.3 3.0
Dash Harris, Tex A&M 3.5 1.2 2.9
Al Nolen, Minnesota 4.8 1.6 2.9
Sherron Collins, Kan. 4.4 1.6 2.9
Chris Howard, So. Fla. 4.4 1.7 2.7
Jorge Gutierrez, Cal. 3.0 1.1 2.7
Andy Rautins, Syrac. 5.2 2.0 2.6
Kenny Boynton, Fla. 3.9 1.7 2.3
Larry Drew II, UNC 6.8 2.9 2.3

I left Drew II and Boyton on the list because Duke fans may be interested in these two guys. There are a lot of players at smaller schools that may have great ATO ratios, but I am not going to hand-check every conference in the land. Plus, I think comparing guys at major programs makes the most sense.

In any event, what Scheyer is doing is just crazy, insane control of the game. I know he is "NOT A PG" but he is as good as we've seen at Duke in many years at setting his teammates up while not making foolish mistakes. It is a marvel to watch.

He needs to get more attention for this!!

--Jason "oh, and his scoring ain't bad either ;) " Evans

SMO
12-16-2009, 04:08 PM
His ATO of 6.4-to-1 is off the charts good. It is an absurd number. You just don't see ATOs like that.

By comparison, the #2 ATO in the ACC is Drew II at 2.3 followed by Ish Smith at 2.2 and Miami Frehsman Durand Scott at 2.0. Scheyer could commit a dozen turnovers with no assists over the next couple games (as if!!) and still comfortably lead the conference in this statistic.

I checked the other major conferences (BCS) and here are how other top players rank in ATO so far this season--


Name Ast TO ATO
John Scheyer, Duke 5.7 0.9 6.4
Tory Jackson, NDame 5.1 1.1 4.7
Tyler Smith, Tenn. 4.1 1.0 4.1
Korie Lucious, Mich St 4.5 1.1 4.1
Dogus Balbay, Texas 5.2 1.3 3.9
Barry Stewart, Miss. 3.0 0.9 3.9
Ben Hansbro, NDame 5.0 1.5 3.4
Taylor Jordan, Wisc. 3.3 1.0 3.3
Derek Glasser, Ariz St 5.6 1.8 3.1
Chris Kramer, Purdue 3.1 1.0 3.1
Diante Garrett, IowaSt 6.0 2.0 3.0
Chris Bass, LSU 3.0 1.3 3.0
Dash Harris, Tex A&M 3.5 1.2 2.9
Al Nolen, Minnesota 4.8 1.6 2.9
Sherron Collins, Kan. 4.4 1.6 2.9
Chris Howard, So. Fla. 4.4 1.7 2.7
Jorge Gutierrez, Cal. 3.0 1.1 2.7
Andy Rautins, Syrac. 5.2 2.0 2.6
Kenny Boynton, Fla. 3.9 1.7 2.3
Larry Drew II, UNC 6.8 2.9 2.3

I left Drew II and Boyton on the list because Duke fans may be interested in these two guys. There are a lot of players at smaller schools that may have great ATO ratios, but I am not going to hand-check every conference in the land. Plus, I think comparing guys at major programs makes the most sense.

In any event, what Scheyer is doing is just crazy, insane control of the game. I know he is "NOT A PG" but he is as good as we've seen at Duke in many years at setting his teammates up while not making foolish mistakes. It is a marvel to watch.

He needs to get more attention for this!!

--Jason "oh, and his scoring ain't bad either ;) " Evans

If he keeps playing like this he'll make a strong case for ACC POY. Another thing that is in his favor is that there are so many quality big men that they may sort of cancel each other out in terms of neutralizing each others' performance.

phaedrus
12-16-2009, 05:42 PM
Updating this watch, which is still a long-shot, even after tonight's game. With 36 points tonight, though, he's now at 162 for the season, which puts him exactly at my target of 18 ppg. Scheyer is now at 1,511 for his career, so that's 489 to go. Let's do a breakdown Jason's way, and we'll assume that Duke plays a minimum of one ACC Tourney game and one NCAA Tourney game. (Obviously, we'll all hope for nine total games in those two tourneys.)

25 more games = 19.56 ppg for 2,000
26 games = 18.81 ppg for 2,000
27 games = 18.11 ppg for 2,000
28 games = 17.46 ppg for 2,000
29 games = 16.86 ppg for 2,000
30 games = 16.3 ppg for 2,000
31 games = 15.77 ppg for 2,000
32 games = 15.28 ppg for 2,000

Long-shot? I think this is a team that would be disappointed if it didn't make the ACC final and at least the Sweet Sixteen. That gives Jon 29 games, and a minimum of 16.86 ppg.

I'm not going to say it's more likely than not, but maybe we differ on what a long-shot is.

jimsumner
12-16-2009, 05:51 PM
"I think the stink of that Villanova game has carried over and unless Duke goes very far this year, there is a chance that Jon won't get his due...which would be a travesty."

I understand what you're saying here. But the ACC POY, All-ACC and All-America teams will be selected prior to the NCAA Tournament.

A more likely impediment might come from his teammates. Remember Singler was the pre-season ACC POY and pre-season All-America. Should Scheyer have a better season than Singler, there will be some lazy/uninformed voters who will default to the preseason buzz. For evidence, let me point out that there actually were people who voted for Tim Tebow for Heisman winner.

Duke does have a history of multiple stars, most recently Redick and S. Williams in 2006 and Battier and J. Williams in 2001. In fact, Battier and JWill each won a national POY award in 2001. So, there are some precedents.

And don't ignore Nolan Smith. Decent trio. In case you're wondering, JWill, Dunleavy and Boozer in '02 are the only trio of teammates named first-team All-ACC in the same season.

There's a lot of basketball left to be played and I suspect this will work itself out. But there's no doubt that Jon Scheyer is playing at a very high level right now and people are paying attention.

roywhite
12-16-2009, 05:58 PM
His ATO of 6.4-to-1 is off the charts good. It is an absurd number. You just don't see ATOs like that.

In any event, what Scheyer is doing is just crazy, insane control of the game. I know he is "NOT A PG" but he is as good as we've seen at Duke in many years at setting his teammates up while not making foolish mistakes. It is a marvel to watch.

He needs to get more attention for this!!

--Jason "oh, and his scoring ain't bad either ;) " Evans

Jon is in the process of perfecting Jon Scheyer-type play. :) He keeps getting better at what he does well and reducing his mistakes.

It's a treat to watch.

JasonEvans
12-16-2009, 06:45 PM
The thread about Scheyer's ATO ratio has now been merged with the thread about his career scoring seeing as they were gradually becoming the same topic anyway.

-Jason "mod much?" Evans

Jumbo
12-16-2009, 07:40 PM
Long-shot? I think this is a team that would be disappointed if it didn't make the ACC final and at least the Sweet Sixteen. That gives Jon 29 games, and a minimum of 16.86 ppg.

I'm not going to say it's more likely than not, but maybe we differ on what a long-shot is.

Maybe I just don't want to jinx anything! ;)

tbyers11
12-16-2009, 08:47 PM
Name Ast TO ATO
John Scheyer, Duke 5.7 0.9 6.4
Tory Jackson, NDame 5.1 1.1 4.7
Tyler Smith, Tenn. 4.1 1.0 4.1
Korie Lucious, Mich St 4.5 1.1 4.1
Dogus Balbay, Texas 5.2 1.3 3.9
Barry Stewart, Miss. 3.0 0.9 3.9
Ben Hansbro, NDame 5.0 1.5 3.4
Taylor Jordan, Wisc. 3.3 1.0 3.3
Derek Glasser, Ariz St 5.6 1.8 3.1
Chris Kramer, Purdue 3.1 1.0 3.1
Diante Garrett, IowaSt 6.0 2.0 3.0
Chris Bass, LSU 3.0 1.3 3.0
Dash Harris, Tex A&M 3.5 1.2 2.9
Al Nolen, Minnesota 4.8 1.6 2.9
Sherron Collins, Kan. 4.4 1.6 2.9
Chris Howard, So. Fla. 4.4 1.7 2.7
Jorge Gutierrez, Cal. 3.0 1.1 2.7
Andy Rautins, Syrac. 5.2 2.0 2.6
Kenny Boynton, Fla. 3.9 1.7 2.3
Larry Drew II, UNC 6.8 2.9 2.3



Granted it is early but Jon's 6.4 is ridiculously impressive. For comparison's sake of how things shake out over the entire season, there were only 6 players last season in all of DI who averaged at least 3.0 assists/gm and had an A/TO of 3 or more.


Name Ast A/TO
Tyler Newbold, Utah State 3.2 4.0
Levance Fields, Pitt 7.5 3.8
Josh Dotzler, Creighton 3.5 3.6
Ty Lawson, UNC 6.6 3.5
Bryan Mullins, S Ill 5.6 3.4
Zaire Taylor, Mizzou 3.4 3.0

So far this year, Scheyer is keeping some pretty good statistical company as the "NOT A PG" point guard.

jv001
12-16-2009, 09:43 PM
The clear leader of this Duke team. I know it's early in the season and the conference games have not even begun but Jon is probably the early season leader for ACC POY. I look for Jon to continue to lead this team through out the year. He's a scorer and not necessarily a pure shooter. He just puts the ball in the basket. Look for him to score the 2K points and get his jersey hung from the rafters. Yeh, I know it's early but that's my opinion and hope. Go Jon and Go Duke!

basket1544
12-16-2009, 10:24 PM
I have heard the announcers spout out the stat out frequently this year that Scheyer is about to become the 9th Duke player to average in double figures all four years. Can anyone name the other 8? I've verified that JJ, Johnny, Gminski, Alarie, Spanarkel, Langdon and Grant did it. But that is only 7. Anyone know who the 8th person was?

-jk
12-16-2009, 10:32 PM
I have heard the announcers spout out the stat out frequently this year that Scheyer is about to become the 9th Duke player to average in double figures all four years. Can anyone name the other 8? I've verified that JJ, Johnny, Gminski, Alarie, Spanarkel, Langdon and Grant did it. But that is only 7. Anyone know who the 8th person was?

Tink?

-jk

Jumbo
12-16-2009, 10:35 PM
Updating this watch, which is still a long-shot, even after tonight's game. With 36 points tonight, though, he's now at 162 for the season, which puts him exactly at my target of 18 ppg. Scheyer is now at 1,511 for his career, so that's 489 to go. Let's do a breakdown Jason's way, and we'll assume that Duke plays a minimum of one ACC Tourney game and one NCAA Tourney game. (Obviously, we'll all hope for nine total games in those two tourneys.)

25 more games = 19.56 ppg for 2,000
26 games = 18.81 ppg for 2,000
27 games = 18.11 ppg for 2,000
28 games = 17.46 ppg for 2,000
29 games = 16.86 ppg for 2,000
30 games = 16.3 ppg for 2,000
31 games = 15.77 ppg for 2,000
32 games = 15.28 ppg for 2,000

I messed up the stats slightly -- Duke has 22 regular season games left, not 23. So that means the minimum # of games (assuming an NCAA berth) is 24 and the max (assuming we don't have to play on Thursday of the ACCT) is 31. So, here's the revision:

24 more games = 20.38 for 2,000
25 games = 19.56 ppg for 2,000
26 games = 18.81 ppg for 2,000
27 games = 18.11 ppg for 2,000
28 games = 17.46 ppg for 2,000
29 games = 16.86 ppg for 2,000
30 games = 16.3 ppg for 2,000
31 games = 15.77 ppg for 2,000

phaedrus
12-16-2009, 10:43 PM
I messed up the stats slightly -- Duke has 22 regular season games left, not 23. So that means the minimum # of games (assuming an NCAA berth) is 24 and the max (assuming we don't have to play on Thursday of the ACCT) is 31. So, here's the revision:

24 more games = 20.38 for 2,000
25 games = 19.56 ppg for 2,000
26 games = 18.81 ppg for 2,000
27 games = 18.11 ppg for 2,000
28 games = 17.46 ppg for 2,000
29 games = 16.86 ppg for 2,000
30 games = 16.3 ppg for 2,000
31 games = 15.77 ppg for 2,000

Well s***, now he's a long-shot.

Jumbo
12-16-2009, 10:44 PM
Well s***, now he's a long-shot.

Totally. Might as well say it: It's Over.

Duke84
12-16-2009, 11:12 PM
It appears the guy you're missing is Gene Banks.

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=17

theAlaskanBear
12-16-2009, 11:27 PM
Totally. Might as well say it: It's Over.

You never know, just one really hot streak where he averages 25ppg over 5 games and it becomes much more realistic. How many of us thought Scheyer had a game like on Tuesday in him?

I'm a bit concerned about Singler. He hasnt played well most of the year. He'll still get points, but Scheyer may become our number one offensive focus with Singler the #2 if these trends continue.

Jumbo
12-16-2009, 11:54 PM
You never know, just one really hot streak where he averages 25ppg over 5 games and it becomes much more realistic. How many of us thought Scheyer had a game like on Tuesday in him?

I was being sarcastic. "It's Over" is the title of the thread that started on here when Carlos Boozer broke his foot against Maryland late in the 2000-01 season. We know how that ended.

ice-9
12-17-2009, 04:49 AM
There's no doubt that Scheyer has done the job for us these past two seasons as a PG!

But I think there's two good reasons why few recognize and acknowledge his capabilities:

1) None of Scheyer's teams have made any significant impact on the NCAA tournament. And as we all know, the tournament is where teams and individuals are ultimately judged. If Duke makes the Final Four this year I'll bet big bucks Scheyer will get a LOT of good pub. But Duke hasn't done much in his time here so it's not surprising that he's flying under the radar.

2) This team NEEDS Scheyer to win. However, Scheyer does not impose his will on the game in a way that say, JWill did or even John Wall does. I know this is a vague concept but I think we recognize it when we see it. I just don't see JWill losing by double digits to any team, be it Villanova or Clemson. So while Scheyer is fantastically good I think it's within a team concept vs. a "I'll put everyone on my back and will the team to victory" kind of way.

Bob Green
12-17-2009, 05:19 AM
So while Scheyer is fantastically good I think it's within a team concept vs. a "I'll put everyone on my back and will the team to victory" kind of way.

As in Johnny Dawkins versus Mississippi Valley State in 1986 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?replayId=1527).

Kedsy
12-17-2009, 09:46 AM
And as we all know, the tournament is where teams and individuals are ultimately judged.

I doubt Kevin Durant or Michael Beasley know this (both their teams lost in the second round of the Tournament). They're not the only examples, either. You wouldn't realize it from reading these boards, but I think most people judge teams and individuals on the entire season (especially individuals).


I just don't see JWill losing by double digits to any team, be it Villanova or Clemson.

How about Maryland?

2/9/2000: Twerps 98, Duke 87
2/27/2001: Twerps 91, Duke 80
2/17/2002: Twerps 87, Duke 73

Jeffrey
12-17-2009, 10:02 AM
There's no doubt that Scheyer has done the job for us these past two seasons as a PG!

But I think there's two good reasons why few recognize and acknowledge his capabilities:

1) None of Scheyer's teams have made any significant impact on the NCAA tournament. And as we all know, the tournament is where teams and individuals are ultimately judged. If Duke makes the Final Four this year I'll bet big bucks Scheyer will get a LOT of good pub. But Duke hasn't done much in his time here so it's not surprising that he's flying under the radar.

Then why do people know who Kyle is?


So while Scheyer is fantastically good I think it's within a team concept vs. a "I'll put everyone on my back and will the team to victory" kind of way.

IMO, one should always play to their strengths.

BlueintheFace
12-17-2009, 10:04 AM
I hope this doesn't turn in to an emotionally draining journey to a career number like we saw in 2006. I don't think it will be though.

Also- Not gonna happen. No chance. He should just give up now

mus074
12-17-2009, 01:45 PM
Pomeroy (http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Duke)'s first look into individual stats came out this week on all games through 12/12. Sheyer is well represented. His offensive rating (which is an esoteric combination of a wide range of offensive stats) is ranked 10th in the country. His TO Rate, which gives the number of turnovers as %age of possessions on the floor, is ranked 10th as well. His shooting is decent but streaky, as we know. However, these numbers include only the first 8 games, not Gardner-Webb. So these stats and ranking should really shoot up. The last game will also propel him into the 20% or more poss used lot, meaning he will likely rank first or second in offense rating among those well-used players.

FWIW, don't neglect to note that Dre has the top O Rating in the entire nation. And an even better TO %age (8th) than Jon. Its still early, but this team has serious potential and is a ton of fun to enjoy. :D

Wander
12-17-2009, 02:49 PM
I'm a bit concerned about Singler. He hasnt played well most of the year. He'll still get points, but Scheyer may become our number one offensive focus with Singler the #2 if these trends continue.

I get where you're coming from, but I wouldn't be too worried. In our three games against actually good opponents, Singler and Scheyer each had two very good games and one mediocre game. I don't think we need to worry about either of these guys at all.

As for the 2000 points thing, I still say he doesn't make it, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't rethinking that opinion while watching his last game.

Jeffrey
12-17-2009, 03:09 PM
I'm a bit concerned about Singler. He hasnt played well most of the year. He'll still get points, but Scheyer may become our number one offensive focus with Singler the #2 if these trends continue.

I do not read much into the Nov. & Dec. game stats. I pay much more attention to the Jan.-Mar. numbers. I've never seen the numbers, but I suspect that G's play last season would support my approach.

I strongly believe that Kyle will be one of the five best players in the country from Jan.-Mar. My concern is how far Jon's play will fall. IMO, Jon has been playing at an incredibly high level and some fall should be expected.

NSDukeFan
12-17-2009, 03:21 PM
I get where you're coming from, but I wouldn't be too worried. In our three games against actually good opponents, Singler and Scheyer each had two very good games and one mediocre game. I don't think we need to worry about either of these guys at all.

As for the 2000 points thing, I still say he doesn't make it, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't rethinking that opinion while watching his last game.

I agree re: Singler and would add that last year there was a heralded junior on the team who started off slowly (not that Singler's start has been that bad) and finished quite well, enough that when he was first team all-ACC I don't think anyone brought up pre-Christmas struggles, or slow start.

Jumbo
12-18-2009, 12:27 AM
I do not read much into the Nov. & Dec. game stats. I pay much more attention to the Jan.-Mar. numbers. I've never seen the numbers, but I suspect that G's play last season would support my approach.

I strongly believe that Kyle will be one of the five best players in the country from Jan.-Mar. My concern is how far Jon's play will fall. IMO, Jon has been playing at an incredibly high level and some fall should be expected.


Food for thought: We all know Scheyer played his best ball from February through the end of the season last year: 18.2 ppg over his last 15 games. But it's also easy to forget that he finished really strong as a sophomore, too. In his final 10 games that year, he averaged 14.7 ppg on 44.7% shooting (38.1% from deep). And even as a freshman, his scoring jumped late in the season; he averaged 13.3 ppg over Duke's final 10 games after averaging 11.7 over the first 23 games. So, at this point, I'd say there's pretty strong evidence that he brings it late in the season, against the best competition.

In fact, maybe the best evidence of this are his career stats against UNC:
18.5 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.3 bpg, 1.3 tpg, .465 FG%, .469 3P%, .833 FT%. Pretty remarkable.

Saratoga2
12-18-2009, 10:07 AM
I watched his eyes searching for plays as he dribbled the ball during the GW game. There are no stats for court awareness or for his cal comportment in selecting the best play for the team, but of course his good stats stem from those and from the hard work he has obviously put in during his career to date at Duke.

I tried to think of comparisons for him at the next level and had trouble since his is a unique sort of kid with a wide range of skills and surprising toughness. A lot of comments have been made about his slim physique, but I for one have trouble remember him missing a game due to injury or sickness.

He already belongs with the best of the Duke players and will doubtless give us a lot more to cheer about throughout this season. Here is a case where Coach K's recruitment went just right. He got a great kid with supportive parents, who has been an excellent player for the team and will play all four years.

Jeffrey
12-18-2009, 10:14 AM
Food for thought: We all know Scheyer played his best ball from February through the end of the season last year: 18.2 ppg over his last 15 games. But it's also easy to forget that he finished really strong as a sophomore, too. In his final 10 games that year, he averaged 14.7 ppg on 44.7% shooting (38.1% from deep). And even as a freshman, his scoring jumped late in the season; he averaged 13.3 ppg over Duke's final 10 games after averaging 11.7 over the first 23 games. So, at this point, I'd say there's pretty strong evidence that he brings it late in the season, against the best competition.

In fact, maybe the best evidence of this are his career stats against UNC:
18.5 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.3 bpg, 1.3 tpg, .465 FG%, .469 3P%, .833 FT%. Pretty remarkable.

Facts are facts and that's a very strong case you make!

One thing is certain.... you said Kyle and Jon would be 1 & 1a this season and I seriously doubted you (and I still have some doubt). Up until now, you have been extremely accurate and I have been very wrong.

Nevertheless, I think we're getting ready to see the real Kyle and he will be ACC POY and 1st team All-American. Before the season began, I thought Jon was borderline for 1st team All-ACC. I now think he will be 1st team All-ACC.

airowe
12-18-2009, 12:09 PM
Jeff Goodman high on Scheyer's:

http://community.foxsports.com/goodmanonfox/blog/2009/12/18/scheyers_numbers_stack_up_with_anyone

Kedsy
12-18-2009, 01:12 PM
Jeff Goodman high on Scheyer's:

http://community.foxsports.com/goodmanonfox/blog/2009/12/18/scheyers_numbers_stack_up_with_anyone


He’s averaging 18 points, 5.7 assists, 3.8 rebounds and is shooting 42 percent from long distance.

Kentucky freshman John Wall, FOXSports.com's front-runner for National Player of the Year, is putting up 18.1 points, 7.1 assists, 4.1 rebounds and is shooting 37 percent from beyond the arc.

I'm not saying Scheyer should be in the mix for National Player of the Year.

But it's not bad for a kid who has never even earned hid way onto an all-ACC team.


This brings up an interesting point. If you look at the stat lines for Scheyer and Wall, and then add the assist/turnover ratio, it's pretty clear who is having the better season. Yet John Wall is the "front-runner" for NPOY and Jon Scheyer "should [not] be in the mix." And this from a positive article about Jon.

Look at these stat lines from 2007-08:

G: 12.7 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 1.6 apg, 0.9 blkpg, 1.1 stpg, 47.4 fg%, 31.7 3pt%, 66.9 ft%;

Jon: 11.7, 3.9, 2.4, 0.3, 1.4, 44.4%, 38.8%, 88.9%.

Pretty close, right? Yet G was pre-season first team all-ACC, and I'm guessing Jon didn't even get a single vote. What was the real difference?

Are we back to athleticism again? Or who looks more like a player? Or who is more likely to make an NBA roster (or start, or star)? But should any of that really matter or should people look at the numbers?

It's also possible that people assume you have to double team G (and Wall) and nobody thinks that about Jon. If G and Wall put up their numbers while being double-teamed and Jon was only single-teamed, that's a valid point. But I doubt that's what's running through people's minds. I think you watch G or John Wall and say, wow that guy's a player, and you look at Jon's stat line at the end of the game and say, wow, I had no idea he did all that.

Because of their highlight reel moves, it doesn't matter to most people that G and Wall need the ball in their hands a lot more than Jon does in order to make an impact, or that their teammates might just stand around and watch them, leading to a more inefficient team offense. Again going back to 2007-08, Jon was 8th in the nation in offensive efficiency and G wasn't in the top 100, and this year he's 3rd and Wall isn't in the top 100. But again who was first team pre-season all-ACC in 2008 and who wasn't even considered? Who's the leader for NPOY and who shouldn't even be in the conversation?

I'm not saying numbers should trump what you can see on the court. If I was choosing in a pickup game I'd almost certainly take Wall over Jon. But we all know eyes can be fooled. If I made that choice, would my team win? Which guy would end up being more valuable? I don't know. But I don't think anybody else does either.

mus074
12-18-2009, 01:14 PM
I did a quick comparison (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t4O-HAIYui9-tcnA8rTcYSQ&output=html) of Jon to Hurley and Jason Williams. Granted, Jon has only played about one quarter of the year so far, but his stats as a scoring point guard are every bit as impressive as Hurley's personally fantastic senior year and nearly as impressive as Williams' 2001 and 2002 (NPOY) years. Yet, Scheyer's TO numbers blow the other comparison years away. Not bad for a non-athletic non-PG.

Exiled_Devil
12-18-2009, 02:04 PM
I did a quick comparison (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t4O-HAIYui9-tcnA8rTcYSQ&output=html) of Jon to Hurley and Jason Williams. Granted, Jon has only played about one quarter of the year so far, but his stats as a scoring point guard are every bit as impressive as Hurley's personally fantastic senior year and nearly as impressive as Williams' 2001 and 2002 (NPOY) years. Yet, Scheyer's TO numbers blow the other comparison years away. Not bad for a non-athletic non-PG.

The ATO ratio is strong, but I don't think we can compare Sheyer's 6.4 (partial) to Hurley's 8.2 for the season. That is one impressive stat.

mus074
12-18-2009, 02:40 PM
The ATO ratio is strong, but I don't think we can compare Sheyer's 6.4 (partial) to Hurley's 8.2 for the season. That is one impressive stat.

That is absolutely huge, I agree. Trying to compare apples to apples, Hurley assisted somewhere between 29.7% and 35.3% of his teammates made shots while he was on the floor. Jon has assisted approximately 26.3% of his teammates makes while on the floor. Hurley was an amazing play-maker, and successfully made significantly more plays for himself his senior year once Laettner had graduated.

But I really think that is offset by the TO number (not A/TO). Jon turns over about 5.1% of his own possessions, while still using in total about 20.1% of his teams possessions. Hurley turned it over that 2003 season on 19.6% of his possession, while using 25.5% of the teams possessions while on the floor that senior year. Taking it one step further, Jon's TOs use up only about 1% of all team possessions while he is on the floor as PG. Hurley's TO's used up about 5% of all team possessions while he was PG on the floor.

Hurley is the king of assists to my mind (and the NCAA record books), but Jon's entire game as PG (in these first 9 games) is nothing short of magical. For fear of jinxing future outcomes, I will just leave it at that. ;)

J_C_Steel
12-18-2009, 02:47 PM
I'm a huge fan of Jon Scheyer. Criminally underrated in the ACC throughout his career. Nice to see that he's getting some publicity now.

When I watch Duke play offense, I want the ball in Scheyer's hands. What frustrated me during the loss to Wisconsin was our willingness to simply have Singler receive the ball at the top of the key, then have him drive to the hoop and hope to get fouled. We did that on at least 4 possessions in the last 10 minutes against the Badgers. This team is far better served when Jon has the ball and people are moving from the wing to the post. He'll find the open man or come off a screen and get open for a shot himself.

In short, this Duke team can't let Singler play isolated offense. It's not the best set, even when Kyle is on. The offense has to filter through Scheyer.

gumbomoop
12-18-2009, 05:25 PM
There are no stats for court awareness. I tried to think of comparisons for him at the next level and had trouble since his is a unique sort of kid with a wide range of skills and surprising toughness.

I think this is key to figuring out why Scheyer is too little appreciated, save by Duke fans. [Similar observations by Kedsy, #82, and JCSmith, #86.]

I just don't recall any players with S's remarkable court sense. But I don't watch enough hoops at any level, so it may be my Duke-bias. I was real impressed by Stephen Curry in this regard, but just didn't see him often enough.

But Saratoga2's most interesting observations are about the dearth of comparisons, and S's uniqueness. What I think is so unusual - close to unique - is S's unexpected athleticism, owing, I think [help me here], to his on-the-fly creativity. He makes up stuff all the time, because, like Battier, he's thinking about 4 or 5 things every second he's on the court. So he's not smoothly athletic, but he displays real, if weirdly "hidden," athleticism 5 or 6 times per game.

Thus, I don't think the pass to McClure v. Clemson was luck. Nor the play v. Texas in NCAA. Nor the dipsy-do's that he dipsy-does intermittently, as often as not involving a left-handed over-the-shoulder-off-the-backboard-hangtime-HORSE-shot. S knows intuitively that he can do X, and so he does. Out of nowhere.

Exiled_Devil
12-18-2009, 06:07 PM
That is absolutely huge, I agree. Trying to compare apples to apples, Hurley assisted somewhere between 29.7% and 35.3% of his teammates made shots while he was on the floor. Jon has assisted approximately 26.3% of his teammates makes while on the floor. Hurley was an amazing play-maker, and successfully made significantly more plays for himself his senior year once Laettner had graduated.

But I really think that is offset by the TO number (not A/TO). Jon turns over about 5.1% of his own possessions, while still using in total about 20.1% of his teams possessions. Hurley turned it over that 2003 season on 19.6% of his possession, while using 25.5% of the teams possessions while on the floor that senior year. Taking it one step further, Jon's TOs use up only about 1% of all team possessions while he is on the floor as PG. Hurley's TO's used up about 5% of all team possessions while he was PG on the floor.

Hurley is the king of assists to my mind (and the NCAA record books), but Jon's entire game as PG (in these first 9 games) is nothing short of magical. For fear of jinxing future outcomes, I will just leave it at that. ;)

Yeah, I think his accomplishments so far this season are amazing. (Heck, I started the ATO tracking thread a month ago). I guess I am just over-awed by Hurley's record and the numbers he put up. I hesitate to talk about Jon in the same vein. But the numbers are compelling...

ice-9
12-18-2009, 09:51 PM
I doubt Kevin Durant or Michael Beasley know this (both their teams lost in the second round of the Tournament). They're not the only examples, either. You wouldn't realize it from reading these boards, but I think most people judge teams and individuals on the entire season (especially individuals).

How about Maryland?

2/9/2000: Twerps 98, Duke 87
2/27/2001: Twerps 91, Duke 80
2/17/2002: Twerps 87, Duke 73


Durant and Beasley scored a lot of points in the regular season -- that's probably the difference. If Scheyer scored 30 ppg he'll probably be more well known.

Also, while Duke did lose by double digits in those games against Maryland, they were a heckuva lot more competitive than in the losses to Villanova and Clemson.

Finally, to Jeffrey: Do people really know who Kyle is? He's more decorated than Scheyer, sure, but it's a carryover from his higher projected NBA draft position and better HS ranking. But I don't think the average college basketball fan knows who he is in the way they know, for example, John Wall, James Harden, or JJ Redick.

Kedsy
12-18-2009, 11:19 PM
Finally, to Jeffrey: Do people really know who Kyle is? He's more decorated than Scheyer, sure, but it's a carryover from his higher projected NBA draft position and better HS ranking. But I don't think the average college basketball fan knows who he is in the way they know, for example, John Wall, James Harden, or JJ Redick.

Duke is on TV twice a week, and on national TV at least once a week. People have heard of Kyle Singler, and certainly he's more well known than Harden, at least among non-Pac 10 fans. And I don't want to dwell too much on the definition of the "average fan," but most casual basketball fans don't really start watching college hoops until after bowl season is over, and a large number of them wait until after the Super Bowl. It's true any "real" fan knows who John Wall is (although IMO not more than they know Kyle) but most of the public hasn't even heard of him yet.

Jeffrey
12-18-2009, 11:27 PM
Finally, to Jeffrey: Do people really know who Kyle is? He's more decorated than Scheyer, sure, but it's a carryover from his higher projected NBA draft position and better HS ranking. But I don't think the average college basketball fan knows who he is in the way they know, for example, John Wall, James Harden, or JJ Redick.

Then how did Kyle get to be a pre-season 1st team All-American? Do you seriously believe it was "a carryover from his higher projected NBA draft position and better HS ranking"? Do you seriously believe "the average college basketball fan" does not know the pre-season 1st team All-Americans (I'm not asking if they know who made the team, I'm asking if they know who those five players are)?

ice-9
12-19-2009, 04:55 AM
Then how did Kyle get to be a pre-season 1st team All-American? Do you seriously believe it was "a carryover from his higher projected NBA draft position and better HS ranking"? Do you seriously believe "the average college basketball fan" does not know the pre-season 1st team All-Americans (I'm not asking if they know who made the team, I'm asking if they know who those five players are)?

I do. Of course, Kyle has backed up his rankings and projections on the court so that helps, but so has Scheyer and yet Kyle is more highly lauded.

I also recognize that trying to imagine what the "college basketball fan" thinks might be a futile exercise, so I'll just retract that and say it's my perception that someone like James Harden is more well known than Kyle Singler. I certainly read more articles about Harden as a player than I did Kyle last year.

But here's some factual data to backup that perception:
http://www.google.com/trends?q=kyle+singler,+james+harden,+jon+scheyer&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0

According to Google Trends, people searched for Harden 50% more often than Singler, and 300% more often than Scheyer.

Indoor66
12-19-2009, 07:16 AM
I do. Of course, Kyle has backed up his rankings and projections on the court so that helps, but so has Scheyer and yet Kyle is more highly lauded.

I also recognize that trying to imagine what the "college basketball fan" thinks might be a futile exercise, so I'll just retract that and say it's my perception that someone like James Harden is more well known than Kyle Singler. I certainly read more articles about Harden as a player than I did Kyle last year.

But here's some factual data to backup that perception:
http://www.google.com/trends?q=kyle+singler,+james+harden,+jon+scheyer&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0

According to Google Trends, people searched for Harden 50% more often than Singler, and 300% more often than Scheyer.

Who is James Harden?

Wander
12-19-2009, 08:18 AM
I do. Of course, Kyle has backed up his rankings and projections on the court so that helps, but so has Scheyer and yet Kyle is more highly lauded.

Singler is more highly lauded because for two years he's been the better college player. If Scheyer keeps up the fantastic play he's had so far this season, he'll get all the awards and recognition he deserves (he was, after all, named MVP of the preseason NIT).

JasonEvans
12-19-2009, 02:50 PM
I'm not saying numbers should trump what you can see on the court. If I was choosing in a pickup game I'd almost certainly take Wall over Jon. But we all know eyes can be fooled. If I made that choice, would my team win? Which guy would end up being more valuable? I don't know. But I don't think anybody else does either.

In a pickup game, Wall's ability to create on his own would be more valuable. I am assuming that by "pickup" you mean an unstructured game. Much of Jon's value comes from his ability to use the Duke system to his advantage. Without other players who understand that system, it could devalue Jon a bit.

Perhaps a better question would be... if you were starting a team, who would you pick?

Also worth noting that Wall is an early-in-the-season freshman who can reasonably be expected to improve.

Finally, one thing to note, it is still early in this season. While we all hope Scheyer's impressive stats will hold up (heck, I hope they improve!!), it is probably a bit premature to compare what he has done so far with the full season stats of Hurley or JWill.

--Jason "it would be oh so nice if Scheyer's stats held up all year!" Evans

airowe
12-19-2009, 07:22 PM
I messed up the stats slightly -- Duke has 22 regular season games left, not 23. So that means the minimum # of games (assuming an NCAA berth) is 24 and the max (assuming we don't have to play on Thursday of the ACCT) is 31. So, here's the revision:

24 more games = 20.38 for 2,000
25 games = 19.56 ppg for 2,000
26 games = 18.81 ppg for 2,000
27 games = 18.11 ppg for 2,000
28 games = 17.46 ppg for 2,000
29 games = 16.86 ppg for 2,000
30 games = 16.3 ppg for 2,000
31 games = 15.77 ppg for 2,000

Scheyer did nothing to take him off pace. I'm thinking we'll get to at least 27 games...

basket1544
12-19-2009, 08:01 PM
Jon's assist/turnover ratio is Hurley-like amazing... better than Hurley amazing. But Jon isn't Hurley. He's his own person and he is doing an amazing job. There's no need to compare him to the greats yet. I like to do that at the end of a season/career. He is going to rack up a lot of awards by the end of this year. Last year's ACC Tournament MVP I think was the start of such things. This year's Pre-season NIT MVP continued it. He is gaining more confidence in his teammates and in his own creativity. That is going to result in more turnovers as he plays less conservatively. But that's okay. The creativity will give way to more comparisons to Hurley. I agree with those that compare him to Shane too. He is one of the most intelligent players I've ever watched.

dukestheheat
12-19-2009, 08:30 PM
Singler is more highly lauded because for two years he's been the better college player. If Scheyer keeps up the fantastic play he's had so far this season, he'll get all the awards and recognition he deserves (he was, after all, named MVP of the preseason NIT).

...when it comes to offense, I think, is that Jon doesn't expose his dribble or his pass to the defender much unless he's slashing to the basket; Singler, on the other hand, does put that ball out there more often and in particular seems to get it stripped a lot in the paint as he's moving for the shot.

On a side note: It'd be interesting to me to interview guys who've had to defend Jon (especially last year and this year) and Kyle; I bet we'd find out that Jon probably frustrates a lot of people because he gives the defender very little chance for a steal and his passing release also just doesn't allow for many knock-aways or denials. Jon is such a dependable player that we probably all agree that we'd like for him to have the ball in his hands when we are in the clutch.

dth.

dukestheheat
12-19-2009, 08:40 PM
In a pickup game, Wall's ability to create on his own would be more valuable. I am assuming that by "pickup" you mean an unstructured game. Much of Jon's value comes from his ability to use the Duke system to his advantage. Without other players who understand that system, it could devalue Jon a bit.

Perhaps a better question would be... if you were starting a team, who would you pick?

Also worth noting that Wall is an early-in-the-season freshman who can reasonably be expected to improve.

Finally, one thing to note, it is still early in this season. While we all hope Scheyer's impressive stats will hold up (heck, I hope they improve!!), it is probably a bit premature to compare what he has done so far with the full season stats of Hurley or JWill.

--Jason "it would be oh so nice if Scheyer's stats held up all year!" Evans

...in the open court, tough to stop.

I think that Jon is a better shooter than is Wall (based on what little I've seen of Wall). Both are scoring a lot of points for their teams but they're probably going about it differently. Jon certainly gets the jumpshots and some in transition; knowing how explosive Wall is leads me to believe that he's probably getting his points off the fastbreak or off of steals.

Both are great players and if I could, I'd pick both to start the team, how's that?

dth.

BlueintheFace
12-19-2009, 10:32 PM
how long until we can start whispering about Jon as a 1st team All-American?

Billy Dat
12-20-2009, 07:14 AM
Luke Winn doesn't say first team, but he's starting the AA talk:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/luke_winn/12/19/duke.gonzaga/index.html

BlueintheFace
12-20-2009, 11:20 AM
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=quincy-pondexter&p1=jon-scheyer&p2=xavier-henry&p3=john-wall&p4=luke-harangody&p5=wesley-johnson

Comparison of 6 NPOY candidates...

Jumbo
12-20-2009, 02:16 PM
Luke Winn doesn't say first team, but he's starting the AA talk:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/luke_winn/12/19/duke.gonzaga/index.html

Apparently Winn wasn't the only one who was impressed yesterday.

http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-12-19/scheyer-emerging-among-nations-best-regardless-position

Jumbo
12-20-2009, 02:25 PM
Here's another interesting point, in addition to our earlier discussion of all the shots on which he's been hit and hasn't drawn a call, and all the shots that have gone halfway down and popped back out. Scheyer hasn't had the chance to pad his stats with FTs at the end of the game. Duke has only played a couple of games that were close enough for the opposing team to foul late, and in those cases, Duke has done a poor job of finding Scheyer. The ball went to Smith, instead, who chose to hold it and draw the foul, since he's a fine shooter as well. So, while he might find it more difficult to score against some of the better ACC teams, if Duke can win a lot of games, there could be some serious stat-padding opportunities if Duke does a better job of inbounding to him.

Anyway, here's the latest batch of numbers. (Is it too early to start a countdown to 2K? Would we be jinxing things? Because he's 469 points away ...)

23 more games = 20.39 for 2,000
24 games = 19.54 ppg for 2,000
25 games = 18.76 ppg for 2,000
26 games = 18.04 ppg for 2,000
27 games = 17.37 ppg for 2,000
28 games = 16.75 ppg for 2,000
29 games = 16.17 ppg for 2,000
30 games = 15.63 ppg for 2,000

Bob Green
12-20-2009, 02:27 PM
I really like reading Coach Krzyzewski's comparing Scheyer to Jim Spanarkel. Spanarkel played in the NBA for five years and had a career scoring average of 9.7 points per game. Scheyer's performance so far this season is deserving of All-America recognition and is going to prove a lot of doubters wrong as he will get drafted and play at the next level.

mapei
12-20-2009, 04:50 PM
I think Jon has been a better offensive player so far than Kyle this year and it's not even close. I'm not so sure about defense. I know he is highly regarded defensively on this board, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing; but head-to-head he may not have been playing better D than Kyle.

I'd love to see Jon make AA at the end of the year. I haven't seen anyone in this year's crop of contenders who deserves it more. Of course the "real" season is about to start, and additional stars will emerge from the mix (like, say, DeJuan Blair did last year).

BlueintheFace
12-21-2009, 09:50 AM
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=quincy-pondexter&p1=jon-scheyer&p2=xavier-henry&p3=john-wall&p4=luke-harangody&p5=wesley-johnson

Comparison of 6 NPOY candidates...

Also, I'd encourage everybody to compare John Wall (the supposed frontrunner for POY) with Jon Scheyer... just for fun. See what you find.

Jeffrey
12-21-2009, 10:16 AM
Who is James Harden?

You may want to Google him.

Jeffrey
12-21-2009, 10:25 AM
I do. Of course, Kyle has backed up his rankings and projections on the court so that helps, but so has Scheyer and yet Kyle is more highly lauded.

But here's some factual data to backup that perception:
http://www.google.com/trends?q=kyle+singler,+james+harden,+jon+scheyer&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0

According to Google Trends, people searched for Harden 50% more often than Singler, and 300% more often than Scheyer.

Not sure the Google info. proves anything. I'm much more prone to Google an unknown than a known.

Looks like we should agree to disagree.

IMO, and not your opinion, it's highly unlikely for a relatively unknown college basketball player to be all of the following:

1. A pre-season 1st team All-American.

2. A projected NBA lottery pick.

3. A key player, for a top-10 team, frequently on national television.

airowe
12-21-2009, 10:30 AM
Has the second TO been taken away from Scheyer yet? That was clearly on Singler.

I kniw these stats get changed retrospectively often. Wondering if this one will as well.

pfrduke
12-21-2009, 11:23 AM
Has the second TO been taken away from Scheyer yet? That was clearly on Singler.

I kniw these stats get changed retrospectively often. Wondering if this one will as well.

Not sure what the official read is, but oddly enough, the box score on the GoDuke website and the play-by-play presented right below the box score simply don't match up. In the box, Scheyer has 8 assists and 2 TOs. If you go through the play-by-play, he has 7 assists and just 1 turnover. I have no idea which is more right, but it's very strange to have those not equate.

JasonEvans
12-21-2009, 07:44 PM
Duke needs to petition the NCAA to take away that extra turnover!!

I think it should be given to Pete Gaudet instead ;)

--Jason "chill people! I am just kidding!!" Evans

Bob Green
12-21-2009, 09:52 PM
Not sure what the official read is.....

Per TheACC.com (the official website of the Atlantic Coast Conference), Jon Scheyer's A/T ratio is 5.9. Scheyer has 59 assists and 10 turnovers.

Billy Dat
12-22-2009, 08:41 AM
The Scheyer story continues to move from simmer to bubble. On 12/18, Chad Ford posted an NBA Draft blog on ESPN Insider.

Ford spends 318 words on Scheyer. He points out the paradox of the quality of his season and the lack of endorsement, by NBA scouts he's talked to, as a first round pick. They say he isn't a true 1, and he tends to struggle against quick guards that can recover quickly to contest his outside shots. But, Ford says that while he hasn't cracked Ford's top 60 draft boards, he keeps getting better and players like him tend to be those taken in the second round (which he is saying as a positive, as in, he's not on anyone's 60 pick radar yet when the day comes, someone's going to spend a pick on him).

cspan37421
12-22-2009, 09:28 AM
Add to his stats some intangibles: a bunch of tattoos, a weird haircut, and a devil-may-care attitude and/or drug bust, and he'd clearly be a first round pick.

RainingThrees
12-22-2009, 09:47 AM
Add to his stats some intangibles: a bunch of tattoos, a weird haircut, and a devil-may-care attitude and/or drug bust, and he'd clearly be a first round pick.

He'd be a lock for the Denver Nuggets then.

Azdukefan
12-22-2009, 10:02 AM
Draftexpress.com just updated their second round to include.........(wait for it)........(wait for it).............Jon Scheyer!

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2010/

MChambers
12-22-2009, 12:40 PM
John's now #1 in offensive efficiency according to Pomeroy, through the Gonzaga game.

http://www.kenpom.com/team.php?team=Duke

Andre's dropped all the way to #3.

Kedsy
12-22-2009, 12:51 PM
John's now #1 in offensive efficiency according to Pomeroy, through the Gonzaga game.

http://www.kenpom.com/team.php?team=Duke

Andre's dropped all the way to #3.

Looking at the ORtg numbers for our team, what strikes me is that after Jon and Andre, our next three highest ratings are (in order): Olek, Ryan, Z. Obviously they've touched the ball a lot less than Jon, but still...

Billy Dat
12-22-2009, 02:11 PM
Chad Ford's chat, which is not premium content, included Scheyer today:

Moshe (Chicago)
All I wanted for Hanukkah (and now x-mas) is to know if Jon Scheyer will make the NBA. He's the Jewish Jordan. Seriously his PER is amazing, great defense, no TO's and he can score.

Chad Ford (1:48 PM)
He's been really good, the best senior PG in college basketball. But I can't find a NBA talent evaluator that's sold on him as a NBA player. He lacks great lateral quickness (a key for NBA PGs on both sides of the ball) and might end up being more of a Steve Kerr type shooter. Could he get drafted? Sure. But the Jewish Jordan? Uh ... no. If anyone is the Jewish Jordan, check at Omri Casspi in Sacramento. He's have a terrific rookie year.

SMO
12-22-2009, 03:16 PM
Chad Ford's chat, which is not premium content, included Scheyer today:

Moshe (Chicago)
All I wanted for Hanukkah (and now x-mas) is to know if Jon Scheyer will make the NBA. He's the Jewish Jordan. Seriously his PER is amazing, great defense, no TO's and he can score.

Chad Ford (1:48 PM)
He's been really good, the best senior PG in college basketball. But I can't find a NBA talent evaluator that's sold on him as a NBA player. He lacks great lateral quickness (a key for NBA PGs on both sides of the ball) and might end up being more of a Steve Kerr type shooter. Could he get drafted? Sure. But the Jewish Jordan? Uh ... no. If anyone is the Jewish Jordan, check at Omri Casspi in Sacramento. He's have a terrific rookie year.

Kerr is a good analogy and perhaps a realistic goal for Scheyer. An audacious goal would be Redick, minus some range and plus some intangibles.

Bluedog
12-24-2009, 12:42 PM
I didn't think this was significant enough to merit it's own thread, so I stuck it in this one. In any event, Jason King of Yahoo! Sports released (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AlClA3VH5jZf7QEooUTKn8c5nYcB?slug=jn-confcall122409&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)his "All-Igniter Team" - or "the players who have jump-started their teams heading into the heart of their schedules." Essentially, to me looks like a mid-season POY selection divided up by conference. His picks:

ACC - Jon Scheyer, Duke
Big East - Wesley Johnson, Syracuse
Big Ten - John Shurna, Northwestern
Big 12 - Damion James, Texas
Pac 10 - Klay Thompson, Washington State
SEC - Patrick Patterson, Kentucky

So, it seems like we (i.e. Duke fans) aren't the only ones seeing the great influence Jon has had on the team and is certainly in contention for ACC POY if he keeps it up.

His ACC power rankings:

1. Duke
2. North Carolina
3. Clemson
4. Florida State
5. Miami
6. Georgia Tech
7. Wake Forest
8. Maryland
9. Virginia Tech
10. North Carolina State
11. Boston College
12. Virginia

ricks68
12-29-2009, 08:13 PM
Unofficially: 7 more assists and zero turnovers. Ho-hum.:rolleyes:

ricks

mapei
12-29-2009, 08:22 PM
He is definitely being noticed now.

NSDukeFan
12-29-2009, 08:24 PM
Unofficially: 7 more assists and zero turnovers. Ho-hum.:rolleyes:

ricks

I'm not a math major, but I believe that helps his assist to turnover ratio.:D

Welcome2DaSlopes
12-29-2009, 08:28 PM
I'm not a math major, but I believe that helps his assist to turnover ratio.:D

What is it now? Does anyone know?

Saratoga2
12-29-2009, 08:33 PM
Jon has 66 assists and 10 TO. You don't need to be a math major to know that is 6.6/1

Jumbo
12-29-2009, 08:41 PM
Here's the latest update on the chase for 2K. After scoring 22 against Long Beach State, Scheyer is 447 away. The breakdown:

22 more games = 20.32 for 2,000
23 games = 19.43 ppg for 2,000
24 games = 18.63 ppg for 2,000
25 games = 17.88 ppg for 2,000
26 games = 17.19 ppg for 2,000
27 games = 16.56 ppg for 2,000
28 games = 15.96 ppg for 2,000
29 games = 15.41 ppg for 2,000

uh_no
12-29-2009, 09:54 PM
its looking more probably by the game

Welcome2DaSlopes
12-29-2009, 10:01 PM
Jon has 66 assists and 10 TO. You don't need to be a math major to know that is 6.6/1

Goduke and Espn have Jon at 59 assist.

loran16
12-29-2009, 10:04 PM
Goduke and Espn have Jon at 59 assist.

That Number was before today's game (He was at 5.9 A/T prior to this game).

Now it's 66.

Welcome2DaSlopes
12-29-2009, 10:04 PM
Ahhh thank you, I stand corrected

Billy Dat
12-29-2009, 10:30 PM
Great post-LBS game K quote about Scheyer:

"Jon's a terrific basketball player and he has been for his entire time here. He understands the value of the ball and he also understands his talents. He doesn't try to be somebody else. He's not a real quick guy, but he's not a slow guy. He's not a great jumper, but he's a decent jumper. He's not a great ball handler, but he's not going to give up the ball. He does his stuff to its highest level, which is what every player should learn to do. He knows what he's good at and he becomes excellent in those things. A lot of kids are good in things and try to do something they're not as good in, and then they're no longer good at the things they were good at. That doesn't only happen in basketball. Know what your talents are. Jon's terrific. Jon is a really, really good basketball player."

Acymetric
12-29-2009, 10:40 PM
Did anyone else hear Jon give Z huge props in the postgame?

gep
12-29-2009, 11:53 PM
Great post-LBS game K quote about Scheyer:

"... A lot of kids are good in things and try to do something they're not as good in, and then they're no longer good at the things they were good at. That doesn't only happen in basketball. Know what your talents are. ..."

Priceless... should be applied by everyone.:) But of course, in real life, this shouldn't prevent one from becoming good at something new... given enough time, I guess...

MChambers
12-30-2009, 08:47 AM
Jon has 66 assists and 10 TO. You don't need to be a math major to know that is 6.6/1

You do if you're Bobby Cremins.

JasonEvans
12-30-2009, 09:50 AM
It is a huge statement about how far Scheyer has come that I was disappointed to see him ONLY make 2nd Team All-American in this column from Yahoo (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=Ar3K3ogZS.9ZFSwlUn2Vt_XevbYF?slug=jn-kotc123009&prov=yhoo&type=lgns) with their "mid season All-Americans."


FIRST TEAM

F Damion James, Texas – He has averaged 24 points and 14 rebounds in big wins over North Carolina and Michigan State. James would be the MVP if not for Wall.

F Wesley Johnson, Syracuse – The Iowa State transfer lit up North Carolina and is projected to be a Top 10 pick in this summer’s NBA draft.

C Luke Harangody, Notre Dame – The big man is averaging 24.2 points and is on pace to become the Big East’s all-time leading scorer.

G John Wall, Kentucky – North Carolina coach Roy Williams said Wall is the top point guard prospect since Jason Kidd.

G Sherron Collins, Kansas – The leader of the country’s No. 1 ranked team is on pace to become the winningest player in school history.

Coach Jim Boeheim, Syracuse – Boeheim has the Orange in the hunt for a No. 1 seed despite the loss of Jonny Flynn, Eric Devendorf and Paul Harris.

SECOND TEAM

F Patrick Patterson, Kentucky – The Wildcats’ unsung hero has improved his draft status by coming back to school.

F Quincy Pondexter, Washington – He is averaging 21.9 points for Pac-10’s best team.

C Ekpe Udoh, Baylor – The Michigan transfer ranks second in the Big 12 in field-goal percentage and rebounding and first in blocks.

G Jon Scheyer, Duke – The Blue Devils’ floor leader is averaging 18.2 points, has 66 assists and only 10 turnovers.

G Jacob Pullen, Kansas State – Pullen is the leader of a 12-1 Wildcats squad that hopes to challenge Kansas and Texas for the Big 12 title.

Coach Bill Carmody, Northwestern – The veteran coach has the Wildcats in the Top 25 for the first time in 40 years despite the loss of star Kevin Coble.

-Jason "Wall is gonna be consistently ranked ahead of Jon... but I know which kid I'd rather have" Evans

JasonEvans
12-30-2009, 10:04 PM
Right about now I am eager to hear from the folks who scoffed at Scheyer averaging 15 or 16 ppg this year ;)

--Jason "Jumbo and Jason on the 2k watch doesn't look so silly at this point!" Evans

uh_no
12-30-2009, 11:00 PM
Right about now I am eager to hear from the folks who scoffed at Scheyer averaging 15 or 16 ppg this year ;)

--Jason "Jumbo and Jason on the 2k watch doesn't look so silly at this point!" Evans

the acc season has yet to start....just sayin....

Jim3k
12-30-2009, 11:01 PM
First team AA? (http://rivals.yahoo.com/video/college-basketball/college-hoops-top-guards-58801;_ylt=As4z1gL2GPuScKmLbj6oy5DevbYF)

OK. You've got to hear about Wall and others, too.

Exiled_Devil
12-31-2009, 11:08 AM
the acc season has yet to start....just sayin....


But there aren't many ACC teams tougher than UCon Gonzaga (according to rankings, at least).

uh_no
12-31-2009, 11:35 AM
But there aren't many ACC teams tougher than UCon Gonzaga (according to rankings, at least).

the point is that we're barely 1/3 of the way into the season, and the intensity is about to double for most of the games we play....no more long beach states on the program....and you must grant that more of our games have been of the long beach state variety than the uconn variety...

Exiled_Devil
12-31-2009, 11:57 AM
the point is that we're barely 1/3 of the way into the season, and the intensity is about to double for most of the games we play....no more long beach states on the program....and you must grant that more of our games have been of the long beach state variety than the uconn variety...

He's got to regress more than 3 ppg, and looking at his game by game stats, he has not had a highly variable scoring line. It's been pretty consistently around 18 ppg. The SD of his scoring is 6 ppg, but if you discount the highest and lowest (10 pt vs Coastal Carolina and 36 pts vs Gardner Webb) then you get an SD of 3 ppg. So, he could regresss down to 15 ppg, but I would say it is pretty likely that he keeps it about 16.

As for the competition, I'm not sure that the ACC is really much of a murderers row this year. This year we have Clemson x2, GT x2, BC x2, MD x2 and UNC x2. Speaking strictly from a Scheyer scoring likelihood:
Clemson may be a challenge with their press - I would expect a lot of points from the Front court -
UNC I expect him to do very well -
I forget how he matches with Vasquez -
I may be underestimating them, but GT's backcourt seems to be their weak link -
I'll admit I don't know about BC.

With an average higher than the 16 ppg that Jason and Jumbo were expressing, I can see Scheyer easily making that average by the end of the season.

JasonEvans
12-31-2009, 12:02 PM
the point is that we're barely 1/3 of the way into the season, and the intensity is about to double for most of the games we play....no more long beach states on the program....and you must grant that more of our games have been of the long beach state variety than the uconn variety...

You are aware that Long Beach State is a very good team that we just happened to thrash pretty badly. They were in it to the end in several games against top-tier competition and have to be considered one of the leading contenders to get an NCAA bid from the Big West, despite their 4-8 record.

Is the schedule about to get more intense? You betcha, big time. But, does that mean Scheyer's contributions to date are not indicative of what his contributions will be in the ACC schedule? I find that doubtful.

Look at last year-- Scheyer's biggest game of the season was 30 points against Wake. His second highest scoring output was 24 at UNC. After that was 23 points in a pair of games against two of our better non-conf opponents, Xavier and URI. He had 22 3-times, against Maryland, Miami, and Davidson (another strong non-conf opponent).

The record from a season ago showed that Scheyer played best (from a scoring standpoint) in most of our biggest games. It is not like he stat-padded early in the year and then fell off in production when the games go tougher. In fact, the exact opposite happened.

Additionally, as has been noted several times in this thread, his scoring and assist production increased markedly when he was moved to PG for the final third of the season. This was easily our toughest stretch of games and Jon scored more while dishing out more assists in it.

So, I have presented a heap of evidence that Scheyer's production is not likely to drop off in ACC play. In fact, there is evidence it may even increase. Do you have anything, other than your own lack of faith in him, to show that the opposite will happen?

-Jason "all this said, I hope Scheyer only averages 15.5 ppg the rest of the year... and that he makes it to 2000 points in his career... I'd take that in a heartbeat!!" Evans

uh_no
12-31-2009, 12:07 PM
Is the schedule about to get more intense? You betcha, big time. But, does that mean Scheyer's contributions to date are not indicative of what his contributions will be in the ACC schedule? I find that doubtful.


Yup. That's what I was trying to say, though perhaps less eloquently. I don't know what his numbers will do over the rest of the year, but there is a decisive change in the type of games that will be played, and we have yet to see what the team will do in these games, it could be that singler's numbers explode and cut into scheyers, and his numbers could go down at no fault of jon's. This might not happen. He could start averaging 25 for the rest of the season. I just think we should wait till we've played 4-5 acc games before declaring him the NPOY

Jumbo
01-01-2010, 11:40 PM
Here's the latest update after the Penn game (in which, somehow, Scheyer committed his season-high of four turnovers). The A/TO ratio now stands at 77/14 or 5.5:1. Still absurd. And he scored 19 points, leaving him 428 away from 2,000. BTW, did anyone notice that after the tech on Jerome Allen, Singler shot the FTs, not Scheyer? Wonder why K did that -- to get Kyle going? It's not like it made a big difference in the gram, but if Scheyer somehow finishes the season with 1,998 career points, we know whom to blame! ;) That does bring up a point worth remembering, though, as Duke heads into ACC play: Assuming Duke's wins are closer, and teams are fouling late, Scheyer stands to benefit from some late-game stat-padding with free throws. But Duke needs to do a better job of finding him; in the only reasonably close wins the team has had, the ball went to Nolan Smith instead. When you have a 91% FT shooter, you have to get him the ball in those situations. Worth watching ...

Here's the breakdown of what Scheyer needs to do to reach the 2K mark:

21 more games = 20.38 for 2,000
22 games = 19.45 ppg for 2,000
23 games = 18.61 ppg for 2,000
24 games = 17.83 ppg for 2,000
25 games = 17.12 ppg for 2,000
26 games = 16.46 ppg for 2,000
27 games = 15.85 ppg for 2,000
28 games = 15.29 ppg for 2,000

MChambers
01-02-2010, 08:58 AM
But Duke needs to do a better job of finding him; in the only reasonably close wins the team has had, the ball went to Nolan Smith instead. When you have a 91% FT shooter, you have to get him the ball in those situations. Worth watching ...

Nolan's no slouch at the line. Goduke.com has him at 85% (although it clearly has Jon's stats wrong, since it shows him at 34-78 from the free throw line).

Not really disagreeing with you strongly, but in end of game situations, we have two wonderfully good guards from which to choose.

uh_no
01-02-2010, 12:26 PM
Nolan's no slouch at the line. Goduke.com has him at 85% (although it clearly has Jon's stats wrong, since it shows him at 34-78 from the free throw line).

Not really disagreeing with you strongly, but in end of game situations, we have two wonderfully good guards from which to choose.

most of our team is quite reliable from the line...the only slouches are zoubs and the plumlees

Jumbo
01-02-2010, 12:35 PM
most of our team is quite reliable from the line...the only slouches are zoubs and the plumlees

Yes, but late in the game, nursing a lead, who do you want at the line?
(BTW, isn't it odd that last season, Zoubs shot 82.8% from the line and this year he's at 48%? I guess that says something about sample size -- he doesn't get to the line very often. Thomas, meanwhile, has gone from 55.3% to 81.5%.)

uh_no
01-02-2010, 12:44 PM
Yes, but late in the game, nursing a lead, who do you want at the line?
(BTW, isn't it odd that last season, Zoubs shot 82.8% from the line and this year he's at 48%? I guess that says something about sample size -- he doesn't get to the line very often. Thomas, meanwhile, has gone from 55.3% to 81.5%.)

no doubt....but probabilistically, the chances of there being a difference between an 85% shooter on the line and a 91% shooter on the line is interesting....here's the breakdown
85% 91%
0pts 2.25% .81%
1pt 25.5% 16.38%
2pts 72.25% 82.81%

It comes out to about a 20% chance the 85% shooter scores fewer points than the 91% shooter in a trip to the line for 2 shots.

While i love scheyer on the line, i'm not hugely concerned if we end up with nolan or kyle on the line in a pinch

Wander
01-02-2010, 01:49 PM
Right about now I am eager to hear from the folks who scoffed at Scheyer averaging 15 or 16 ppg this year ;)

--Jason "Jumbo and Jason on the 2k watch doesn't look so silly at this point!" Evans

Alright, I'm in... 2000 points, here we come. Even though I think the stat is kind of stupid, I want to see him break the ACC A/T record also.

Kedsy
01-02-2010, 01:50 PM
no doubt....but probabilistically, the chances of there being a difference between an 85% shooter on the line and a 91% shooter on the line is interesting....here's the breakdown
85% 91%
0pts 2.25% .81%
1pt 25.5% 16.38%
2pts 72.25% 82.81%

It comes out to about a 20% chance the 85% shooter scores fewer points than the 91% shooter in a trip to the line for 2 shots.

While i love scheyer on the line, i'm not hugely concerned if we end up with nolan or kyle on the line in a pinch

I wouldn't be hugely concerned, either, but I'm actually more concerned after seeing your numbers, because 20% sounds like a lot to me. It means if we played five very close games then we'd have a bigger chance of losing one of them with Nolan on the line than if Jon was on the line (for all five). I understand we're not likely to play five games decided by 1 or 2 points (or OT), and also that if we played five such games Nolan probably wouldn't be the guy on the line all five games, but I also understand that when you have a 1 in 5 chance, the "1" might come first.

MChambers
01-02-2010, 02:55 PM
I wouldn't be hugely concerned, either, but I'm actually more concerned after seeing your numbers, because 20% sounds like a lot to me. It means if we played five very close games then we'd have a bigger chance of losing one of them with Nolan on the line than if Jon was on the line (for all five). I understand we're not likely to play five games decided by 1 or 2 points (or OT), and also that if we played five such games Nolan probably wouldn't be the guy on the line all five games, but I also understand that when you have a 1 in 5 chance, the "1" might come first.

Nolan actually shot free throws slightly better than Scheyer last year (.849 vs. .836). I wouldn't be too concerned about either one in the final minutes.

ice-9
01-02-2010, 04:08 PM
Nolan actually shot free throws slightly better than Scheyer last year (.849 vs. .836). I wouldn't be too concerned about either one in the final minutes.

I agree. Great free throw shooters (my definition: >80%) will almost always make FTs when the game is on the line.

Bob Green
01-02-2010, 04:17 PM
most of our team is quite reliable from the line...

Duke has the best Team FT percentage in the ACC at 76%. Duke has made 203 of 276 attempts. Individually, Jon Scheyer is No. 1 (91%) and Kyle Singler is No. 8 (78.7%).

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2009-2010/confldrs.html

yancem
01-02-2010, 07:55 PM
Here's the latest update after the Penn game (in which, somehow, Scheyer committed his season-high of four turnovers). The A/TO ratio now stands at 77/14 or 5.5:1. Still absurd. And he scored 19 points, leaving him 428 away from 2,000. BTW, did anyone notice that after the tech on Jerome Allen, Singler shot the FTs, not Scheyer? Wonder why K did that -- to get Kyle going? It's not like it made a big difference in the gram, but if Scheyer somehow finishes the season with 1,998 career points, we know whom to blame! ;) That does bring up a point worth remembering, though, as Duke heads into ACC play: Assuming Duke's wins are closer, and teams are fouling late, Scheyer stands to benefit from some late-game stat-padding with free throws. But Duke needs to do a better job of finding him; in the only reasonably close wins the team has had, the ball went to Nolan Smith instead. When you have a 91% FT shooter, you have to get him the ball in those situations. Worth watching ...

Here's the breakdown of what Scheyer needs to do to reach the 2K mark:

21 more games = 20.38 for 2,000
22 games = 19.45 ppg for 2,000
23 games = 18.61 ppg for 2,000
24 games = 17.83 ppg for 2,000
25 games = 17.12 ppg for 2,000
26 games = 16.46 ppg for 2,000
27 games = 15.85 ppg for 2,000
28 games = 15.29 ppg for 2,000

Not to disagree with your analysis Jumbo but based on Scheyer's current scoring production, the question isn't whether or not Scheyer scores 2k points (he's already there for the season no less) but whether he can top 6k career points:D:eek:.

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/seasons/season-stats.php?season=2009-10

devildeac
01-02-2010, 08:23 PM
Not to disagree with your analysis Jumbo but based on Scheyer's current scoring production, the question isn't whether or not Scheyer scores 2k points (he's already there for the season no less) but whether he can top 6k career points:D:eek:.

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/seasons/season-stats.php?season=2009-10

Too funny a typo. Thanks for sharing. It would be great however to have Jon averaging a "mere" 185 PPG! And Wall would still get more ink...:rolleyes:

gep
01-02-2010, 08:45 PM
Here's the latest update after the Penn game ... (in which, somehow, Scheyer committed his season-high of four turnovers). The A/TO ratio now stands at 77/14 or 5.5:1. Still absurd. And he scored 19 points, leaving him 428 away from 2,000.

*****

Here's the breakdown of what Scheyer needs to do to reach the 2K mark:

21 more games = 20.38 for 2,000
22 games = 19.45 ppg for 2,000
23 games = 18.61 ppg for 2,000
24 games = 17.83 ppg for 2,000
25 games = 17.12 ppg for 2,000
26 games = 16.46 ppg for 2,000
27 games = 15.85 ppg for 2,000
28 games = 15.29 ppg for 2,000

by my count, there are a minimum of 22 games remaining... 19 regular season, 1 ACCT, 1 NCAAT... maximum of 28(?)... 19 regular season, 3 ACCT, 6 NCAAT... I wasn't sure where this was at this point:rolleyes:

Jumbo
01-02-2010, 09:05 PM
by my count, there are a minimum of 22 games remaining... 19 regular season, 1 ACCT, 1 NCAAT... maximum of 28(?)... 19 regular season, 3 ACCT, 6 NCAAT... I wasn't sure where this was at this point:rolleyes:


Uh, 19+1+1=21 ... ;)
Max of 28 (assuming Duke doesn't have to play an additional Thursday game in the ACCT).

gep
01-02-2010, 09:14 PM
Uh, 19+1+1=21 ... ;)
Max of 28 (assuming Duke doesn't have to play an additional Thursday game in the ACCT).

WOW... What a *screw up* for me. Thanks again, Jumbo... I guess that's why you've got your stats from 21 to 28 games. I just wasn't sure... started looking at the schedule on DBR... and the rest is history.:D

uh_no
01-03-2010, 12:43 PM
by my count, there are a minimum of 22 games remaining... 19 regular season, 1 ACCT, 1 NCAAT... maximum of 28(?)... 19 regular season, 3 ACCT, 6 NCAAT... I wasn't sure where this was at this point:rolleyes:

there is the possibility we don't make the ncaat....

Duvall
01-03-2010, 01:04 PM
there is the possibility we don't make the ncaat....

True, but there are like 129 postseason spots now. It's reasonable to predict that Duke will get one of them.

airowe
01-03-2010, 01:26 PM
there is the possibility we don't make the ncaat....

uh, no.

Wander
01-03-2010, 01:30 PM
Well, we could be put in the play-in game, allowing for the possibility of playing seven NCAAT games instead of six. :)

RoyalBlue08
01-03-2010, 01:55 PM
Well, we could be put in the play-in game, allowing for the possibility of playing seven NCAAT games instead of six. :)

Not true. Even if we lost every game for the rest of the season, and then won the ACC tournament, we would not be in the play in game.

uh_no
01-03-2010, 04:57 PM
True, but there are like 129 postseason spots now. It's reasonable to predict that Duke will get one of them.

hmmm....idk....i think we're right on that 130 team bubble....

Jumbo
01-03-2010, 09:28 PM
After 22 points against Clemson (leaving Scheyer 406 away from 2K), here's the latest countdown. I'll add the current A/TO numbers once the official box score is posted.

20 more games = 20.3 for 2,000
21 games = 19.33 ppg for 2,000
22 games = 18.45 ppg for 2,000
23 games = 17.65 ppg for 2,000
24 games = 16.92 ppg for 2,000
25 games = 16.24 ppg for 2,000
26 games = 15.62 ppg for 2,000
27 games = 15.04 ppg for 2,000

Jumbo
01-03-2010, 09:38 PM
And, sure enough, the box score is up. Scheyer had 6 assists and 3 turnovers, which puts him at 83/17 on the season, or 4.9:1.
BTW, in 3 games this week, these were Scheyer's stats:
21.0 ppg, 8.0 apg, 3.0 rpg, 2.0 spg, 2.3 tpg, .450 FG%, .882 FT%, .444 3PT%. Seems like he can make a strong case for another ACC Player of the Week Award, eh?

DukeBlood
01-04-2010, 02:59 AM
And, sure enough, the box score is up. Scheyer had 6 assists and 3 turnovers, which puts him at 83/17 on the season, or 4.9:1.
BTW, in 3 games this week, these were Scheyer's stats:
21.0 ppg, 8.0 apg, 3.0 rpg, 2.0 spg, 2.3 tpg, .450 FG%, .882 FT%, .444 3PT%. Seems like he can make a strong case for another ACC Player of the Week Award, eh?

Not to discredit a Jon, or highjack his thread.

Nolan averaged:
21.3 ppg, 3.6 apg, 2.0 rpg, 1.3 spg, 2.0 tpg, .610 FG%, .620 FT%, .620 3PT%

I wouldn't be surprised if either or won it. Maybe its just me, but Nolan really isn't getting the props he deserves from commentators. They are all over Jon, rightfully so as he is front runner for ACC player of the year and potential AA. However you don't hear much about Nolan who is putting up ALL-ACC numbers(AA numbers?)

Is this the best backcourt(along with Singler?) in the country? Anyone could certainly make a case for it.

lpd1982
01-04-2010, 08:39 AM
Don't you love that we are in the position to worry which of our producing players is overlooked instead of looking for players to produce?

JasonEvans
01-04-2010, 10:36 AM
Not to discredit a Jon, or highjack his thread.

Nolan averaged:
21.3 ppg, 3.6 apg, 2.0 rpg, 1.3 spg, 2.0 tpg, .610 FG%, .620 FT%, .620 3PT%

I wouldn't be surprised if either or won it. Maybe its just me, but Nolan really isn't getting the props he deserves from commentators. They are all over Jon, rightfully so as he is front runner for ACC player of the year and potential AA. However you don't hear much about Nolan who is putting up ALL-ACC numbers(AA numbers?)

Is this the best backcourt(along with Singler?) in the country? Anyone could certainly make a case for it.

Not to hijack the thread, but I think Al-Farouq Aminu will win ACC Player of the Week. Wake went 3-0 against UNC-G, a pretty denccet Richmond team, and a good Xavier club. Aminu averaged 21.7 points, 14.3 rebounds, and 3.7 blocks per game. He hit 52% of his FGs. His only bad spot in his FT shooting. If the kid could hit FTs, he'd be an unstoppable beast. He hit only 20 out of 35 FTs for the week, an average of 57%.

--Jason "now, back to worshiping at the altar that is Jon Scheyer ;) " Evans

NSDukeFan
01-04-2010, 11:33 AM
Not to hijack the thread, but I think Al-Farouq Aminu will win ACC Player of the Week. Wake went 3-0 against UNC-G, a pretty denccet Richmond team, and a good Xavier club. Aminu averaged 21.7 points, 14.3 rebounds, and 3.7 blocks per game. He hit 52% of his FGs. His only bad spot in his FT shooting. If the kid could hit FTs, he'd be an unstoppable beast. He hit only 20 out of 35 FTs for the week, an average of 57%.

--Jason "now, back to worshiping at the altar that is Jon Scheyer ;) " Evans

Imma let you finish, but Jon is having one of the greatest seasons and finishing up one of the best careers OF ALL-TIME!
Sorry, had to do it.

DukeBlood
01-04-2010, 12:47 PM
Not to hijack the thread, but I think Al-Farouq Aminu will win ACC Player of the Week. Wake went 3-0 against UNC-G, a pretty denccet Richmond team, and a good Xavier club. Aminu averaged 21.7 points, 14.3 rebounds, and 3.7 blocks per game. He hit 52% of his FGs. His only bad spot in his FT shooting. If the kid could hit FTs, he'd be an unstoppable beast. He hit only 20 out of 35 FTs for the week, an average of 57%.

--Jason "now, back to worshiping at the altar that is Jon Scheyer ;) " Evans

You win ;)

JasonEvans
01-04-2010, 04:03 PM
You win ;)

We were both wrong.

VT's Dorenzo Hudson won Player of the Week (http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/010410aaa.html) in the ACC on the back of his 41-point game against Seton Hall.

--Jason "hmmm, do they allow anyone to win Player of the Week twice? No one has so far this year" Evans

Duvall
01-04-2010, 04:09 PM
--Jason "hmmm, do they allow anyone to win Player of the Week twice? No one has so far this year" Evans

Jumbo gonna getcha for that (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204842280) one (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204860787).

JasonEvans
01-04-2010, 04:48 PM
Jumbo gonna getcha for that (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204842280) one (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204860787).

Ooops. I looked on the ACC's archive for press releases and missed the early-season Scheyer win. My bad.

The winners so far--

Nov 16- Aminu, Wake
Nov 23- Smith, Duke
Nov 30- Scheyer, Duke
Dec 7- Raji, BC
Dec 14- Allen, VT
Dec 21- Scheyer, Duke
Dec 28- Vazquez, Md
Jan 4- Hudson, VT

--Jason "interesting that GT, Clemson, and UNC -- considered the teams with the best chance of challenging Duke -- have none so far" Evans

superdave
01-04-2010, 09:40 PM
Can we start a write-in campaign for Cremins as Coach of the Week?

JasonEvans
01-05-2010, 12:30 PM
ATO update--



4.9 Jon Scheyer Duke
4.3 Adrian Thomas Miami (FL)
4.0 Tory Jackson Notre Dame
4.0 Jack Trotter Stanford
4.0 Kerwin Dunham Northern Iowa
4.0 Brandon Hall St. Peter's
3.9 Jordan Taylor Wisconsin
3.8 Ryan Staudacher Montana
3.6 Mike Thompson Northwestern
3.6 Matt Kenney Valparaiso
3.5 Ben Hansbrough Notre Dame

Jumbo
01-06-2010, 10:44 PM
Another 31 points against Iowa State leaves Scheyer 375 away from 2K. Meanwhile, the A/TO took a bit of a hit with 4 assists and 2 turnovers. To be fair, those turnovers were hardly his fault -- he caught an errant pass off a screen and stepped on the sideline and then inbounding under the basket, no one got open, requiring him to force a pass that Iowa State recovered. He's now at 87 assists and 19 turnovers on the season, a ratio of 4.58:1. Here's the latest point-scoring countdown ...

19 more games = 19.74 ppg for 2,000
20 games = 18.75 ppg for 2,000
21 games = 17.86 ppg for 2,000
22 games = 17.05 ppg for 2,000
23 games = 16.30 ppg for 2,000
24 games = 15.63 ppg for 2,000
25 games = 15.0 ppg for 2,000
26 games = 14.42 ppg for 2,000

pfrduke
01-06-2010, 11:30 PM
For reference, he's at 19.71 ppg right now.

CDu
01-07-2010, 08:13 AM
Much like the unfortunate Hansbrough countdown last year, I think it'll take either an injury, a substantial collapse by the team late in the season, or some real individual struggles offensively for Scheyer not to get to 2,000.

Granted, Scheyer did have an 8-game stretch last year in which he averaged 9.5 ppg on 25% shooting from the field. I think it would take a stretch like that again to prevent him from getting to the milestone. And I'd be pretty surprised to see that level of struggle again from him.

rotogod00
01-07-2010, 08:23 AM
Another 31 points against Iowa State leaves Scheyer 375 away from 2K. Meanwhile, the A/TO took a bit of a hit with 4 assists and 2 turnovers. To be fair, those turnovers were hardly his fault -- he caught an errant pass off a screen and stepped on the sideline and then inbounding under the basket, no one got open, requiring him to force a pass that Iowa State recovered. He's now at 87 assists and 19 turnovers on the season, a ratio of 4.58:1. Here's the latest point-scoring countdown ...

19 more games = 19.74 ppg for 2,000
20 games = 18.75 ppg for 2,000
21 games = 17.86 ppg for 2,000
22 games = 17.05 ppg for 2,000
23 games = 16.30 ppg for 2,000
24 games = 15.63 ppg for 2,000
25 games = 15.0 ppg for 2,000
26 games = 14.42 ppg for 2,000


fwiw, both espn and cbssportsline have scheyer with 86 assists and 18 turnovers, for an A/TO ratio of 4.78

Bob Green
01-07-2010, 03:10 PM
GoDuke.com (https://www.nmnathletics.com//pdf4/663948.pdf?ATCLID=204865883&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200) and theacc.com (http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2009-2010/confldrs.html) have Scheyer at 87 and 19. These are the official stats.

InSpades
01-07-2010, 03:35 PM
Over his last 6 games... Scheyer has put up these stats:
25 PPG, 52% FG, 51% 3P, 93% FT, 4.17 RPG, 7.5 APG, 3.21 A/TO

I really can't remember the last time I saw a Duke player put up numbers like this over such a period. I'd guess we'd have to go back to Jayson Williams days atleast.

airowe
01-07-2010, 04:27 PM
Over his last 6 games... Scheyer has put up these stats:
25 PPG, 52% FG, 51% 3P, 93% FT, 4.17 RPG, 7.5 APG, 3.21 A/TO

I really can't remember the last time I saw a Duke player put up numbers like this over such a period. I'd guess we'd have to go back to Jayson Williams days atleast.

Jayson Williams played for Duke? This Jayson Williams?

http://www.unathleticmag.com/wp-content/uploads/jayson-williams.jpg

;)

CDu
01-07-2010, 04:28 PM
Over his last 6 games... Scheyer has put up these stats:
25 PPG, 52% FG, 51% 3P, 93% FT, 4.17 RPG, 7.5 APG, 3.21 A/TO

I really can't remember the last time I saw a Duke player put up numbers like this over such a period. I'd guess we'd have to go back to Jayson Williams days atleast.

At least. I'd honestly be surprised if Williams ever had that great an A:TO ratio.

InSpades
01-07-2010, 04:51 PM
At least. I'd honestly be surprised if Williams ever had that great an A:TO ratio.

His A/TO was never all that good. Even ignoring that... I think you'd hard pressed to find just 25 points and 7.5 assists over a 6 game span.

Williams did have a 5 game stretch in 2000-2001 where he averaged 29 points which is pretty impressive (all against ACC schools too).

JJ had a stretch his senior year of 9 games averaging 33.5 points if you just want to look at scoring. Looking at the #s he put up his senior year is a bit baffling. He was incredible.

mkirsh
01-07-2010, 05:11 PM
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=22-jason-williams&i=1&p1=jon-scheyer&p2=jj-redick

Scheyer's season so far is right up there with some other great seasons by Duke stars. Scoring might be a bit down from JJ and J-Will, but offensive efficiency, effective FG%, rebounds, assists, assits %, A/TO all as good as or better. I recognize this site compares partial to full seasons so a little apples and oranges, but very impressive nonetheless.


(Just noticed that I'm C-Well, one of my all time favorites, I may never post again)

yancem
01-07-2010, 05:17 PM
His A/TO was never all that good. Even ignoring that... I think you'd hard pressed to find just 25 points and 7.5 assists over a 6 game span.

Williams did have a 5 game stretch in 2000-2001 where he averaged 29 points which is pretty impressive (all against ACC schools too).

JJ had a stretch his senior year of 9 games averaging 33.5 points if you just want to look at scoring. Looking at the #s he put up his senior year is a bit baffling. He was incredible.

Actually, I was thinking last night that Scheyer is having a Redick type senior year. You have to substitute a couple of assists for points but right now Scheyer is approaching the same dominance.

At the beginning of the season Scheyer looked like a 2nd maybe 1st team all acc player. Then as the season has progressed he has developed into a solid 1st team acc, to a favorite for acc POY and a possible national AA and more recently to a possible 1st team AA. If he can keep his numbers near his recent production, it won't be long before the words national POY start appearing in the same sentence as SCHEYER!

Tim1515
01-07-2010, 05:25 PM
I'm not sure if anyone else brought this up but I thought Jon had 3 assists in about the first 3 minutes of play.

Later in the game they showed his stats and he only had 1 listed.

He got an obvious assists to Singler on the break-away layup.

I believe the other 2 I counted were the two Lance jumpers in the first few minutes. I'm not sure what the ruling is exactly with assists as far as continuation is concerned.

Welcome2DaSlopes
01-07-2010, 07:42 PM
I'm not sure if anyone else brought this up but I thought Jon had 3 assists in about the first 3 minutes of play.

Later in the game they showed his stats and he only had 1 listed.

He got an obvious assists to Singler on the break-away layup.

I believe the other 2 I counted were the two Lance jumpers in the first few minutes. I'm not sure what the ruling is exactly with assists as far as continuation is concerned.

I caught that as well, but then when i refreshed the page about 5 mins. later it said three, so i didn't really pay it any mind.

CDu
01-07-2010, 07:57 PM
I'm not sure if anyone else brought this up but I thought Jon had 3 assists in about the first 3 minutes of play.

Later in the game they showed his stats and he only had 1 listed.

He got an obvious assists to Singler on the break-away layup.

I believe the other 2 I counted were the two Lance jumpers in the first few minutes. I'm not sure what the ruling is exactly with assists as far as continuation is concerned.

College is much more stringent in their criteria for assists. So perhaps the powers that be deemed that Scheyer's pass did not directly set up the score (because Thomas didn't head directly into a shot after Scheyer's pass) and so Scheyer didn't get an assist.

For what it's worth, ESPN credits Scheyer with an assist on two of those early buckets, and CBS credits Scheyer with all three plays that you mention in their play-by-play recaps. Of course, those are the only assists those sites credited to Scheyer, so who knows? I suspect that Scheyer was credited with either two or all three.

Jumbo
01-07-2010, 09:48 PM
College is much more stringent in their criteria for assists. So perhaps the powers that be deemed that Scheyer's pass did not directly set up the score (because Thomas didn't head directly into a shot after Scheyer's pass) and so Scheyer didn't get an assist.

For what it's worth, ESPN credits Scheyer with an assist on two of those early buckets, and CBS credits Scheyer with all three plays that you mention in their play-by-play recaps. Of course, those are the only assists those sites credited to Scheyer, so who knows? I suspect that Scheyer was credited with either two or all three.

Yeah. I think they just put up the wrong graphic on TV originally, which happens. They had the right number online and by halftime, both matched.

COYS
01-08-2010, 12:24 AM
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=22-jason-williams&i=1&p1=jon-scheyer&p2=jj-redick

Scheyer's season so far is right up there with some other great seasons by Duke stars. Scoring might be a bit down from JJ and J-Will, but offensive efficiency, effective FG%, rebounds, assists, assits %, A/TO all as good as or better. I recognize this site compares partial to full seasons so a little apples and oranges, but very impressive nonetheless.


(Just noticed that I'm C-Well, one of my all time favorites, I may never post again)

Ignoring the fact that we're not even halfway through the season, yet, I think these numbers make it reasonable to argue that Scheyer is having a BETTER year than Williams or Redick had. The only thing that really sticks out to me is that Scheyer's usage rate is significantly lower than JJ's or Jason's. Otherwise, his free throw rate, assist rate, points per 100 possessions, turnover rate, TS%, 3pt%, etc . . . are all better. Points per game is about the only category in which Scheyer trails these other two legends. If Scheyer nudges his scoring up into the 20's, I think that number may pass the "eye" test more easily and give him even more recognition.

pfrduke
01-08-2010, 12:33 AM
Ignoring the fact that we're not even halfway through the season, yet, I think these numbers make it reasonable to argue that Scheyer is having a BETTER year than Williams or Redick had. The only thing that really sticks out to me is that Scheyer's usage rate is significantly lower than JJ's or Jason's. Otherwise, his free throw rate, assist rate, points per 100 possessions, turnover rate, TS%, 3pt%, etc . . . are all better. Points per game is about the only category in which Scheyer trails these other two legends. If Scheyer nudges his scoring up into the 20's, I think that number may pass the "eye" test more easily and give him even more recognition.

His usage, though, is lower in part because his turnovers are so low. If he had the same TO% as Williams, with all other numbers being equal, his usage would jump to over 25% - still not as high as they are, admittedly, but much higher. Low turnovers, to a certain extent, artificially deflate usage.

ice-9
01-08-2010, 09:38 AM
On the other hand, defenses were designed to stop Williams and Redick. I don't think Scheyer commands that kind of attention...yet.

mus074
01-08-2010, 12:12 PM
His usage, though, is lower in part because his turnovers are so low. If he had the same TO% as Williams, with all other numbers being equal, his usage would jump to over 25% - still not as high as they are, admittedly, but much higher. Low turnovers, to a certain extent, artificially deflate usage.

Agreed 100%, which I why I think "usage" as it has developed is a flawed statistic for comparing the roles of different players. It just occurred to me: Wouldn't it be neat to instead have two usage statistics - one for participation in positive outcomes and one for participation in negative outcomes? Hmmm. I think I may have just found my weekend's yet unallocated time on the computer.... lol

Jumbo
01-09-2010, 05:49 PM
On a happier note, the game at Georgia Tech was another good one for the Scheyer Stats Watch. His 25 points leave him 350 away from 2K. And with 6 assists and 1 turnover, his A/TO for the season is now 93/20 or 4.65:1. Here's the updated point-scoring countdown. (BTW, he's now averaging 20.1 ppg on the season).

18 more games = 19.44 ppg for 2,000
19 games = 18.42 ppg for 2,000
20 games = 17.50 ppg for 2,000
21 games = 16.67 ppg for 2,000
22 games = 15.91 ppg for 2,000
23 games = 15.22 ppg for 2,000
24 games = 14.58 ppg for 2,000
25 games = 14.00 ppg for 2,000

Bob Green
01-09-2010, 05:54 PM
It is starting to appear that Jon Scheyer will easily break the 2,000 point mark. I went back and reviewed the first page of this thread where most posters expressed doubt that Scheyer could get it done. Times have changed. Currently, Scheyer has Big Mo on his side.

Jumbo
01-09-2010, 05:59 PM
It is starting to appear that Jon Scheyer will easily break the 2,000 point mark. I went back and reviewed the first page of this thread where most posters expressed doubt that Scheyer could get it done. Times have changed. Currently, Scheyer has Big Mo on his side.

You need to perform some sort of major un-jinx immediately. Knock on several pieces of wood!

Bob Green
01-09-2010, 06:01 PM
You need to perform some sort of major un-jinx immediately. Knock on several pieces of wood!

I don't really believe in the superstitious stuff - but one positive aspect to our loss to GT is that I finally get to change my underwear. :D

Okay, I'm knocking on wood for Jon.

Jumbo
01-09-2010, 06:04 PM
BTW, Scheyer is now at 1,650 career points, which moved him past Ronnie Mayer into 20th place all-time at Duke. Next up is Randy Denton at 1,658, and then you start to get into some serious names: Bobby Hurley (1,731); Bob Verga (1,758); Jeff Mullins (1,884); Dick Groat (1,886); Grant Hill (1,924) and on and on and on ...

oldnavy
01-10-2010, 06:06 AM
BTW, Scheyer is now at 1,650 career points, which moved him past Ronnie Mayer into 20th place all-time at Duke. Next up is Randy Denton at 1,658, and then you start to get into some serious names: Bobby Hurley (1,731); Bob Verga (1,758); Jeff Mullins (1,884); Dick Groat (1,886); Grant Hill (1,924) and on and on and on ...

Hey Randy Denton is a serious name! He was my first, favorite Duke player!!

AtlDuke72
01-10-2010, 12:56 PM
Hey Randy Denton is a serious name! He was my first, favorite Duke player!!

That's what I was thinking too! He only played three years (frosh not eligible), but he was outstanding.

Indoor66
01-10-2010, 03:42 PM
That's what I was thinking too! He only played three years (frosh not eligible), but he was outstanding.

That is almost understatement. He has a career average of 19.7 ppg and 12.7 rpg. Those are rare stats in any era.

ricks68
01-10-2010, 10:15 PM
BTW, Scheyer is now at 1,650 career points, which moved him past Ronnie Mayer into 20th place all-time at Duke. Next up is Randy Denton at 1,658, and then you start to get into some serious names: Bobby Hurley (1,731); Bob Verga (1,758); Jeff Mullins (1,884); Dick Groat (1,886); Grant Hill (1,924) and on and on and on ...

When you consider that Denton, Verga, Mullins and Groat put those numbers up in 3 years instead 4 years------and that there was no 3 point shot, I think that's where the definition of "serious" is serious.;)

Let us not forget that with those 3 year players there were routinely fewer games played per year, also.

And by the way, how many of the players ahead of those just mentioned played for 4 years, and with the 3 point shot existing?

ricks

Grey Devil
01-11-2010, 01:29 AM
Jumbo, I really appreciate all the effort you put into your role as moderator on this board, including all the work involved in the countdown to 2000 points for Scheyer, charting each game, and especially your attempts to bring rational thinking to the discussion when people get over the top on doomsaying the Devils. So I'm willing to believe you must have just been a bit tired with your (surely unconscious) dissing of Randy Denton. That guy was a stud!

In addition to accomplishing all he did on the court those years were a tumultuous times for basketball at Duke. Not only did Vic Bubas announce his resignation as head coach in the middle of Denton's Duke career, but his replacement, Bucky Waters, was not well received by some/many members of the team. It was widely known/rumored on campus at thet time that several/many of players on the team were in open disagreement with Waters. So Denton's last two years were played under some contentious circumstances that surely impacted his play, and thus his stats. In fact, it wasn't until Bill Foster came to Duke a few years after Denton left that Duke got back to the high standard of competition that Bubas had first created.

BTW, if memory serves me, I believe he also ended up marrying Bubas' daughter (although that, of course, has no relevance to his on-court play).

Grey Devil

(P.S. Jumbo, keep up the good work!)

Jumbo
01-11-2010, 10:14 AM
Jumbo, I really appreciate all the effort you put into your role as moderator on this board, including all the work involved in the countdown to 2000 points for Scheyer, charting each game, and especially your attempts to bring rational thinking to the discussion when people get over the top on doomsaying the Devils. So I'm willing to believe you must have just been a bit tired with your (surely unconscious) dissing of Randy Denton. That guy was a stud!

In addition to accomplishing all he did on the court those years were a tumultuous times for basketball at Duke. Not only did Vic Bubas announce his resignation as head coach in the middle of Denton's Duke career, but his replacement, Bucky Waters, was not well received by some/many members of the team. It was widely known/rumored on campus at thet time that several/many of players on the team were in open disagreement with Waters. So Denton's last two years were played under some contentious circumstances that surely impacted his play, and thus his stats. In fact, it wasn't until Bill Foster came to Duke a few years after Denton left that Duke got back to the high standard of competition that Bubas had first created.

BTW, if memory serves me, I believe he also ended up marrying Bubas' daughter (although that, of course, has no relevance to his on-court play).

Grey Devil

(P.S. Jumbo, keep up the good work!)

Yeah, certainly didn't mean to take away from Denton. His career numbers were remarkable, and it's important to remember how many guys -- including Denton -- produced such lofty totals in only 3 years. I just meant that as far as "names" go at Duke, his isn't usually mentioned in the same group as that next list of guys. Not saying that's correct, just that it's the way things are perceived. And thanks for the props!

Grey Devil
01-11-2010, 08:09 PM
Yeah, certainly didn't mean to take away from Denton. His career numbers were remarkable, and it's important to remember how many guys -- including Denton -- produced such lofty totals in only 3 years. I just meant that as far as "names" go at Duke, his isn't usually mentioned in the same group as that next list of guys. Not saying that's correct, just that it's the way things are perceived. And thanks for the props!

I guess there are a few of us old codgers around from those days that like to remind folks once in a while that excellent basketball was played at Duke before the Coach K era.....and that some of those names should be mentioned more often (which you did, thank you very much!). So thanks for including his name on the list of those yet to be passed so that he could be remembered....and folks could be reminded.

Grey Devil

fogey
01-11-2010, 08:15 PM
I agree with all the raves about Randy Denton, who was either Mutt or Jeff (can't remember who was who there) to Dick DiVenzio, (they were a great combination) but he did not play for Vic Bubas. Bucky was head coach when RD arrived, IIRC.

Newton_14
01-11-2010, 09:18 PM
Yeah, certainly didn't mean to take away from Denton. His career numbers were remarkable, and it's important to remember how many guys -- including Denton -- produced such lofty totals in only 3 years. I just meant that as far as "names" go at Duke, his isn't usually mentioned in the same group as that next list of guys. Not saying that's correct, just that it's the way things are perceived. And thanks for the props!

Actually though, Denton is mentioned a lot by the older fans when discussing players from that era, especially the local fans here. He played in the era just before my first memory of games so I have few memories of him, but I always hear high praise on Denton from those that saw him.

roywhite
01-11-2010, 09:27 PM
I agree with all the raves about Randy Denton, who was either Mutt or Jeff (can't remember who was who there) to Dick DiVenzio, (they were a great combination) but he did not play for Vic Bubas. Bucky was head coach when RD arrived, IIRC.

Not quite correct. Denton and DeVenzio were sophomores on Coach Bubas's last Duke team in 1968-69.

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/seasons/season-stats.php?season=1968-69

Grey Devil
01-11-2010, 09:28 PM
I agree with all the raves about Randy Denton, who was either Mutt or Jeff (can't remember who was who there) to Dick DiVenzio, (they were a great combination) but he did not play for Vic Bubas. Bucky was head coach when RD arrived, IIRC.

Sorry to have to correct you, but both Randy and Dick were in my class and they had two years when Bubas was there and two years with Waters. Dick's best year was his sophomore year and it all went downhill from there. Randy was consistently good all three years he played varsity.

For your viewing pleasure, here's a picture of Vandenburg, Lind, Devenzio, and Denton on the bench with Bubas standing to the right. I think Dave Golden is probably on the left behind the guy standing and clapping (Golden usually was in the starting lineup then). Warren(?) Chapman and Rick Katherman are behind Bubas. I think this picture was taken at the Carolina game when Bubas retired (a year after the famous "Freddie Lind Game").

Grey Devil

ricks68
01-11-2010, 10:21 PM
I might be somewhere in the picture about 4 or five rows back and to the right----but then, I might not.;)

ricks

JasonEvans
01-14-2010, 05:12 PM
BTW, Scheyer is now at 1,650 career points, which moved him past Ronnie Mayer into 20th place all-time at Duke. Next up is Randy Denton at 1,658, and then you start to get into some serious names: Bobby Hurley (1,731); Bob Verga (1,758); Jeff Mullins (1,884); Dick Groat (1,886); Grant Hill (1,924) and on and on and on ...

1662 now, right?

Yo, Jumbo, where is your scoring average for 2000 update?

-Jason "not Scheyer's best game, but he still managed to get a dozen points in a game where his shot was certainly off" Evans

roywhite
01-14-2010, 05:26 PM
In fact, it wasn't until Bill Foster came to Duke a few years after Denton left that Duke got back to the high standard of competition that Bubas had first created.

BTW, if memory serves me, I believe he also ended up marrying Bubas' daughter (although that, of course, has no relevance to his on-court play).

Grey Devil



Vic's daughter Sandy married Duke '72 basketball player Stuart Yarborough. Knew them both back in the day.

Seems to me that I read that Mark Alarie and Yarborough work together as principals for a venture capital firm in the DC area.

Jumbo
01-14-2010, 06:35 PM
1662 now, right?

Yo, Jumbo, where is your scoring average for 2000 update?

-Jason "not Scheyer's best game, but he still managed to get a dozen points in a game where his shot was certainly off" Evans

Ya know, Evans, some people actually have to work every now and then ... ;)

Here's the update:

Scheyer didn't help his cause with only 12 points against BC, but he did pass Randy Denton to move into 19th place on Duke's all-time list. He's now 338 points away from 2,000 career points. His four assists and one turnover put his A/TO for the season at 97/21 or 4.6:1. Here's the current countdown to 2K info:

17 more games = 19.88 ppg for 2,000
18 games = 18.78 ppg for 2,000
19 games = 17.79 ppg for 2,000
20 games = 16.90 ppg for 2,000
21 games = 16.10 ppg for 2,000
22 games = 15.36 ppg for 2,000
23 games = 14.70 ppg for 2,000
24 games = 14.08 ppg for 2,000

oldnavy
01-15-2010, 06:15 AM
Jumbo, thanks for the update, and I apologize for creating such a uproar over Denton. I was only pulling your chain. Denton was the first player I really remember from going to the games as a kid and I remember him being a beast under the basket. Having said that, LET's GO JON!

Jumbo
01-17-2010, 10:28 PM
It is starting to appear that Jon Scheyer will easily break the 2,000 point mark. I went back and reviewed the first page of this thread where most posters expressed doubt that Scheyer could get it done. Times have changed. Currently, Scheyer has Big Mo on his side.


I don't really believe in the superstitious stuff - but one positive aspect to our loss to GT is that I finally get to change my underwear. :D

Okay, I'm knocking on wood for Jon.

All I'm going to say is this: Green, you'd better fix this. Fix it now.

Jon Scheyer's statistical brilliance took a major hit again tonight against Wake Forest. His first single-digit scoring performance of the season didn't help him much on his quest for 2K points -- he's still 329 points away. And he committed 4 turnovers (at least he had 6 assists), putting his season A/TO ratio at 103/25, or 4.12:1. If that's not enough, Scheyer is just 8-for-33 from 3-point range in ACC play, and I'm having flashbacks to last year's slump. So before I get to the countdown, let me repeat myself: Green, you'd better fix this!

16 more games = 20.56 ppg for 2,000
17 games = 19.35 ppg for 2,000
18 games = 18.28 ppg for 2,000
19 games = 17.32 ppg for 2,000
20 games = 16.45 ppg for 2,000
21 games = 15.67 ppg for 2,000
22 games = 14.95 ppg for 2,000
23 games = 14.30 ppg for 2,000

Grey Devil
01-18-2010, 12:39 AM
All I'm going to say is this: Green, you'd better fix this. Fix it now.

Jon Scheyer's statistical brilliance took a major hit again tonight against Wake Forest. His first single-digit scoring performance of the season didn't help him much on his quest for 2K points -- he's still 329 points away. And he committed 4 turnovers (at least he had 6 assists), putting his season A/TO ratio at 103/25, or 4.12:1. If that's not enough, Scheyer is just 8-for-33 from 3-point range in ACC play, and I'm having flashbacks to last year's slump. So before I get to the countdown, let me repeat myself: Green, you'd better fix this!

16 more games = 20.56 ppg for 2,000
17 games = 19.35 ppg for 2,000
18 games = 18.28 ppg for 2,000
19 games = 17.32 ppg for 2,000
20 games = 16.45 ppg for 2,000
21 games = 15.67 ppg for 2,000
22 games = 14.95 ppg for 2,000
23 games = 14.30 ppg for 2,000

Uh, I don't know. The visual imagery of him fixing it is not pleasant.....but probably worth if it works and Scheyer gets back on track!

The take-away from the Wake game for me, however, is that Scheyer may not need to have such a high PPG because it looks like we'll be making a deeper run in both tournaments now that other players are stepping up and we will not be so dependent on Earth (Singler), Wind (Smith), and Scheyer.

Grey Devil

Bob Green
01-18-2010, 02:36 AM
All I'm going to say is this: Green, you'd better fix this. Fix it now....If that's not enough, Scheyer is just 8-for-33 from 3-point range in ACC play, and I'm having flashbacks to last year's slump. So before I get to the countdown, let me repeat myself: Green, you'd better fix this!



I'm boiling chicken bones and chanting as I type...

devildeac
01-18-2010, 07:20 AM
I'm boiling chicken bones and chanting as I type...

You need to get outta Yokosuka and get back to the States where the rituals of drinking Starbucks and eating cinnamon pastries are much more widely accepted.:rolleyes:;)

CDu
01-18-2010, 03:22 PM
It was a rough week for Scheyer, at least statistically. He averaged 10.5 ppg on 7-23 shooting, and had only a 2:1 a:to ratio (I know, just awful!). Thankfully we won both games convincingly in spite of his woes. But hopefully he can bounce back. He's had a history of being a very streaky shooter, and we now have a three-game trend of ice-cold shooting from him from the field.

Hopefully a game against an undersized NC State team will be just what the doctor ordered. He needs to bounce back soon if he wants to stay in the NPOY discussion.

jv001
01-18-2010, 03:44 PM
Bob get out those old briefs and put them back on. Last night Jon had some scowls on his face. Putting too much pressure on himself? Like Jumbo said, hope it's not another shooting slump like last year. Bet Coach K has some things worked out for him against State. Go Duke!

ricks68
01-18-2010, 04:11 PM
The take-away from the Wake game for me, however, is that Scheyer may not need to have such a high PPG because it looks like we'll be making a deeper run in both tournaments now that other players are stepping up and we will not be so dependent on Earth (Singler), Wind (Smith), and Scheyer.

Grey Devil

Earth, Wind and Scheyer??? Pretty good--------------especially when you add a pair of Plumblee's. Maybe we should ask Jason Evans if that would qualify as a full house. But then, at Cameron, it's always a full house.;)

ricks

JasonEvans
01-20-2010, 02:12 PM
Earth, Wind and Scheyer??? Pretty good--------------especially when you add a pair of Plumblee's. Maybe we should ask Jason Evans if that would qualify as a full house. But then, at Cameron, it's always a full house.

ricks

Earth, Wind, and Scheyer is awesome. Someone in Cameron needs to make a sign with

Earth (Pic of Singler looking gritty) http://collegehoopsupdate.com/images/pics/Kyle_Singler_ap.jpg

Wind (pic of Smith blazing past a defender) http://www.theheismanwinners.com/images/NolanSmith_1_.jpg

And Scheyer http://www.thehoopsreport.com/images/scheyer.jpg

--Jason "that poster would especially make it onto TV if the peson holding it was wearing an Afro Wig" Evans

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oaeN9QmwL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

Jderf
01-20-2010, 03:44 PM
Even if Scheyer does go on a shooting slump, I don't think it would affect him or the team in the same way it did last year. Last year, with Scheyer off the ball, if he had a bad shooting night then he had a bad night. But this year, with the ball in Scheyer's hands, there are so many other ways he can contribute to the game that he can still have a good night even if he is cold on the shot.

- jderf

ice-9
01-20-2010, 10:14 PM
Even if Scheyer does go on a shooting slump, I don't think it would affect him or the team in the same way it did last year. Last year, with Scheyer off the ball, if he had a bad shooting night then he had a bad night. But this year, with the ball in Scheyer's hands, there are so many other ways he can contribute to the game that he can still have a good night even if he is cold on the shot.

- jderf


I don't agree with that -- Scheyer takes a large percentage of the team's shots (and probably even larger this season vs. last season), so if he's off we'll struggle in games.

Duke79UNLV77
01-20-2010, 10:21 PM
Over 4 years he just hasn't been a consistently excellent 3-point shooter. Plus, he has trouble finishing drives against more athletic teams.

He will be the glue and leader of this team all year, but I think we'll be better served in the long run if we don't rely quite so heavily on him to score.

CDu
01-20-2010, 10:33 PM
Over 4 years he just hasn't been a consistently excellent 3-point shooter. Plus, he has trouble finishing drives against more athletic teams.

He will be the glue and leader of this team all year, but I think we'll be better served in the long run if we don't rely quite so heavily on him to score.

Well, 50% is a pretty high bar for a guard. I bet there are very few guards in the country who shoot 50% from the field.

That said, he certainly has struggled with his FG% in the last handful of games.

Duke79UNLV77
01-20-2010, 10:42 PM
He's under 50%, often by a good bit, in 8 of the last 9. He went through a very prolonged shooting slump around this time last year. Beyond free throws, he's just not a great pure shooter. Neither is Singler right now, and that is what their games are predicated on.

CDu
01-20-2010, 10:45 PM
He's under 50%, often by a good bit, in 8 of the last 9. He went through a very prolonged shooting slump around this time last year. Beyond free throws, he's just not a great pure shooter. Neither is Singler right now, and that is what their games are predicated on.

I know what you were saying. But under 50% in any given game is not a bad game. I mean, really. The first 5 of the last 9 games he shot the following:

5-12
8-18
4-9
6-13
10-19

Those are all solid shooting performances for a guard. It's really just the last 4 games in which he's shot poorly.

Bob Green
01-21-2010, 03:06 AM
With 21 points in the loss to State, Jon Scheyer is 308 points away from scoring 2,000 in his career:

15 games = 20.6 ppg
16 games = 19.3 ppg
17 games = 18.2 ppg
18 games = 17.2 ppg
19 games = 16.3 ppg
20 games = 15.4 ppg
21 games = 14.7 ppg
22 games = 14 ppg

Jumbo
01-23-2010, 12:37 AM
With 21 points in the loss to State, Jon Scheyer is 308 points away from scoring 2,000 in his career:

15 games = 20.6 ppg
16 games = 19.3 ppg
17 games = 18.2 ppg
18 games = 17.2 ppg
19 games = 16.3 ppg
20 games = 15.4 ppg
21 games = 14.7 ppg
22 games = 14 ppg

Hopefully Bob's stealing my thunder this time will atone for the clear jinx he has put on the Scheyer Stat Watch. I also got some slightly different numbers:

15 more games = 20.53 ppg for 2,000
16 games = 19.25 ppg for 2,000
17 games = 18.12 ppg for 2,000
18 games = 17.11 ppg for 2,000
19 games = 16.21 ppg for 2,000
20 games = 15.40 ppg for 2,000
21 games = 14.67 ppg for 2,000
22 games = 14.00 ppg for 2,000

Meanwhile, with 2 assists and 1 turnover against NC State, Scheyer's A/TO ratio dropped again. It's now "only" 105/26, or 4.04:1. Here's to, say, 30 points and 10 assists against Clemson.

Jumbo
01-24-2010, 10:41 AM
The Bob Green Curse continues. Scheyer had just 11 points against Clemson (well, it would have been 12 if the refs had reviewed that 3 in the corner), as well 3 assists and 3 turnovers. He is now 297 points away from 2,000 for his career, and his A/TO ratio is now 108/29, or 3.7:1. Additionally, here are Scheyer's stats since Bob jinxed him: 13.3 ppg on .327 shooting (.250 from 3-point range); 15 assists; 9 turnovers. It's beginning to look like it will be quite difficult for Scheyer to reach the 2K mark without a deep postseason run. Here's the breakdown:

14 more games = 21.21 ppg for 2,000
15 games = 19.8 ppg for 2,000
16 games = 18.56 ppg for 2,000
17 games = 17.47 ppg for 2,000
18 games = 16.5 ppg for 2,000
19 games = 15.63 ppg for 2,000
20 games = 14.85 ppg for 2,000
21 games = 14.14 ppg for 2,000

Newton_14
01-24-2010, 10:56 AM
The Bob Green Curse continues. Scheyer had just 11 points against Clemson (well, it would have been 12 if the refs had reviewed that 3 in the corner), as well 3 assists and 3 turnovers. He is now 297 points away from 2,000 for his career, and his A/TO ratio is now 108/29, or 3.7:1. Additionally, here are Scheyer's stats since Bob jinxed him: 13.3 ppg on .327 shooting (.250 from 3-point range); 15 assists; 9 turnovers. It's beginning to look like it will be quite difficult for Scheyer to reach the 2K mark without a deep postseason run. Here's the breakdown:

14 more games = 21.21 ppg for 2,000
15 games = 19.8 ppg for 2,000
16 games = 18.56 ppg for 2,000
17 games = 17.47 ppg for 2,000
18 games = 16.5 ppg for 2,000
19 games = 15.63 ppg for 2,000
20 games = 14.85 ppg for 2,000
21 games = 14.14 ppg for 2,000

You know, it will be real crappy if Jon finishes with 1999 points? That was clearly a 3 and like others have said, it makes no sense why they did not review it at the next stoppage of play.

Bob Green
01-24-2010, 01:55 PM
The Bob Green Curse continues....Additionally, here are Scheyer's stats since Bob jinxed him....

I'm doing everything possible to reverse the mojo to pre-jinx status. I need everyone to focus on assisting me in realigning the stars.

JasonEvans
01-25-2010, 11:03 AM
You know, it will be real crappy if Jon finishes with 1999 points? That was clearly a 3 and like others have said, it makes no sense why they did not review it at the next stoppage of play.

The really wierd thing is that there was a stoppage of play right away so it is not like it took long memories to review it. There needs to be someone designated on the Duke bench, a manager or perhaps Steve Johnson, who is assigned to make sure the staff requests a review when a shot that looks like a 3 is not called a 3.

--Jason "a couple 20+ games will get Jon right back on track... heck, I am betting that 15 ppg from now until the end of the season will get him there ;)" Evans

NSDukeFan
01-25-2010, 11:39 AM
--Jason "a couple 20+ games will get Jon right back on track... heck, I am betting that 15 ppg from now until the end of the season will get him there ;)" Evans

You are saying we will make at least the ACC championship and Final Four, or ACC semi and NCAA championship. I hope you are right and am certainly going to enjoy the ride.

BlueintheFace
01-25-2010, 11:44 AM
I'm doing everything possible to reverse the mojo to pre-jinx status. I need everyone to focus on assisting me in realigning the stars.

Two words:

REVERSE MOJO

DukieInBrasil
01-26-2010, 10:30 AM
so far this year the best play on offense for the team is for Jon Scheyer to get to the free throw line, 90+%,which he does a pretty good job of doing. If K could come up with a play which guaranteed the team that Jon would draw a foul with FTs, we would be unstoppable. Jon shooting 90% on FTs is a better deal than Nolan shooting 50% on 3s.

J_C_Steel
01-26-2010, 10:50 AM
Scheyer seems to hit a shooting slump at least once per year, but maintains his value on the court by playing smart defense and taking care of the ball.

In my humble opinion, the Duke offense works best when Scheyer has the ball in his hands, Smith is looking to get open on the wing, and Singler works the baseline. Lately, Smith has been equally adept at scoring whether he has the ball on the wing, at the top of the key, or at the free throw line, but looking at the year as a whole, that's the most effective set up.

As Mason Plumlee develops, it would be great to get him the ball at the high post and take advantage of his passing skill. He can certainly find the open man, and Duke's offense can be absolutely lethal when each of the "Big Three" (or "Earth, Wind and Scheyer" -- JasonEvans) are moving without the ball.

NSDukeFan
01-26-2010, 12:27 PM
so far this year the best play on offense for the team is for Jon Scheyer to get to the free throw line, 90+%,which he does a pretty good job of doing. If K could come up with a play which guaranteed the team that Jon would draw a foul with FTs, we would be unstoppable. Jon shooting 90% on FTs is a better deal than Nolan shooting 50% on 3s.

One of the problems lately, is that when Jon and Kyle have felt they have been fouled and tried to just get a shot up to get to the line, those calls have not been made. I have noticed this a few times the last few games. I agree with you though, that the more Jon gets to the line, the better.

JasonEvans
01-26-2010, 12:40 PM
Jon shooting 90% on FTs is a better deal than Nolan shooting 50% on 3s.

Just for the sake of being silly, I actually tested this theory.

Lets take 10 posessions. Pretend that Jon gets fouled on all 10 and shoots 20 FTs, hitting 18 of them (90%). Getting an offensive rebound on a missed FT is almost impossible so there is no real chance for Duke to get anyhting more out of the 2 missed FTs.

So, 10 Scheyer FT posessions = 18 points.

Now, take 10 more posessions and have Nolan shoot 10 three-pointers. He hits 5 of them for 15 points. But, what happens to the other 5 posessions? What is Duke's chance of getting an offensive rebound on these posessions? Duke is a very good rebounding team. Plus, 3-pointers typically have a better than average chance of resulting in an offensive rebound because they hit the rim harder. I think it may be as much as 40% chance that Duke retains posession on these 5 missed shots. So, that is 2 extra posessions for Duke. Duke is a highly efficent offensive team, so I think it is reasonable to think we would score on half of those offensive rebound posessions for an extra 2 points.

So, 10 Nolan 3-pointer posessions = 17 points.

Of course, it is almost impossible to design a play where the intended result of the play is a player shooting FTs, so this really is moot. I am sure K would love to send Jon to the FT line 20-30 times a game, but this really is not feasable.

-Jason "nice to have good FT shooters on the team, isn't it?" Evans

concrete
01-26-2010, 12:43 PM
One of the problems lately, is that when Jon and Kyle have felt they have been fouled and tried to just get a shot up to get to the line, those calls have not been made. I have noticed this a few times the last few games. I agree with you though, that the more Jon gets to the line, the better.

the problem is that's neither one of their games. If it's a last second shot I would rather see the ball in Nolans hands. Not Mason, not Scheyer, not Singler...for the specific reason that none of those guys can create shots for others off the dribble. And unless Singler is mismatched with a PF, none of them can typically get by the people guarding them.

I would love Jon to give the rock up to Nolan and the end of the game and have Nolan drive while Jon cuts and let Nolan make the decision.

jv001
01-26-2010, 01:17 PM
so far this year the best play on offense for the team is for Jon Scheyer to get to the free throw line, 90+%,which he does a pretty good job of doing. If K could come up with a play which guaranteed the team that Jon would draw a foul with FTs, we would be unstoppable. Jon shooting 90% on FTs is a better deal than Nolan shooting 50% on 3s.

Yea, I like that play. The one which guarantees Jon will go to the line for free throws everytime we run the play. Let's not run anything but that on offense. So Jon will be in the act of shooting everytime up until the 7th foul. Coach K is smarter than I gave him credit for and I knew he was the best coach in college basketball. Go Duke!

JasonEvans
01-26-2010, 01:17 PM
Not Mason, not Scheyer, not Singler...for the specific reason that none of those guys can create shots for others off the dribble.

No offense dude, but... uhhh... have you been watching this year?

I think Jon has done a fabulous job creating for others off the dribble. He gets into the lane pretty darn well and seems to have a knack for finding teammates once he is in the air and all hope seems lost.

His 6+ assist per game average this season would argue against the notion that he does a poor job creating opportunities for his teammates.

Still, I can see why some might want the ball in Nolan's hands late in the game. I think it is a game to game decision depending on which of Earth Wind and Scheyer are having a big game.

--Jason "I do agree that a play for Mason is probably not Duke's top option late in a game... at least at this point in his career" Evans

concrete
01-26-2010, 09:04 PM
No offense dude, but... uhhh... have you been watching this year?

I think Jon has done a fabulous job creating for others off the dribble. He gets into the lane pretty darn well and seems to have a knack for finding teammates once he is in the air and all hope seems lost.

His 6+ assist per game average this season would argue against the notion that he does a poor job creating opportunities for his teammates.

Still, I can see why some might want the ball in Nolan's hands late in the game. I think it is a game to game decision depending on which of Earth Wind and Scheyer are having a big game.

--Jason "I do agree that a play for Mason is probably not Duke's top option late in a game... at least at this point in his career" Evans

I remember when Greg Paulus lead the ACC in assists as freshmen...stats aren't always indicitive of reality. We have a very good offense and Jon dominates the ball enough that he gets the benefit of the assists. I'm not saying he's a bad ball handler or bad decision maker but he's no Jason Williams. He gets caught in the air alot but at 6'6 he's usually taller than his opposing guard and can usually hoist a shot or make a pass outside. But you'll hardly see him take his man, one on one all the way to the hoop. Just my opinion and I've watched pretty much every game that's been on t.v.

Nolan is the shooting guard, but I would put the ball in his hands in any late game situation. Unfortunately, I think Scheyer and Singler are more likely to have a play drawn up for them.

Wander
01-26-2010, 09:09 PM
He gets caught in the air alot but at 6'6 he's usually taller than his opposing guard and can usually hoist a shot or make a pass outside.

And what's wrong with that? Sounds like intelligently making the best use of your physical attributes to me.

DevilHorns
01-26-2010, 09:10 PM
Nolan is the shooting guard, but I would put the ball in his hands in any late game situation. Unfortunately, I think Scheyer and Singler are more likely to have a play drawn up for them.

I dont think this is true at all. Depending on the situation (individual matchups, etc), and who has the hot hand, K will design the appropriate play.

I think in general, that play would likely end up with Nolan. Nolan, IMO, can probably get the best shot off if given 10 seconds. Scheyer and Singler probably both have a higher chance of getting cleanly blocked on a drive as compared to Nolan. In other words, Nolan is more versatile on a drive (to pull up, perhaps drop a floater).