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View Full Version : MBB: CvCancer Final: Syracuse 87, UNC-CH 71



roywhite
11-20-2009, 06:06 PM
I was impressed with Syracuse last night, and impressed with UNC for most of the game, not so much toward the end.

Should be a good one; slight edge to Syracuse IMO. Their zone defense may expose UNC's lack of consistent outside shooting.

BlueintheFace
11-20-2009, 06:18 PM
I chose OSU by 4 last night, but got it backwards. Unfortunately it was one of the ugliest games I have seen so far this season. I expect a better product tonight. I'm very interested in this game since the Syracuse D is built to make Carolina shoot from outside (a probable weakness this season). Meanwhile, Carolina will shut down the lane with it's size and will force outside shots by the Cuse.

My prediction: Whoever shoots the three better wins..

Indoor66
11-20-2009, 06:20 PM
My prediction: Whoever shoots the three better wins..

Wow, that's a gutsy choice! :D

bdeviled11
11-20-2009, 06:22 PM
I just hope that most of Syracuse's starters aren't in foul trouble with 16 minutes left in the second half

BlueintheFace
11-20-2009, 06:26 PM
Wow, that's a gutsy choice! :D

actually, it kind of is. The correlation between hitting more threes than your opponents and winning is not particularly strong.

CDu
11-20-2009, 06:26 PM
Syracuse has a little more size and a bit better shooting than OSU. However, they aren't nearly as tall as UNC, and they also are generally a pretty bad rebounding team.

Their zone should force UNC into more jumpers (which is not their strength), but it will be interesting to see if those jumpers turn into easy putback opportunities for UNC's big men.

I think Syracuse has a better chance than OSU to beat UNC, but their guards are going to have to do a lot more than OSU's guards did.

CDu
11-20-2009, 06:30 PM
I chose OSU by 4 last night, but got it backwards. Unfortunately it was one of the ugliest games I have seen so far this season. I expect a better product tonight. I'm very interested in this game since the Syracuse D is built to make Carolina shoot from outside (a probable weakness this season). Meanwhile, Carolina will shut down the lane with it's size and will force outside shots by the Cuse.

My prediction: Whoever shoots the three better wins..

The problem is that it's also susceptible to allowing offensive rebounds, which is going to be a strength for UNC this year. I think a team that can force turnovers and is strong on the boards defensively is the team that will give UNC the most trouble. The zone will likely force some missed shots as you note. But as weird as this may sound, that's not necessarily that bad a thing for UNC in this game.

Hopefully the Cuse can get on the defensive glass after those (hopefully) missed long shots by UNC tonight.

Newton_14
11-20-2009, 06:38 PM
I am going with the Orange tonight. They looked really good to me last night and I think they can give this hole team some problems. They played that zone very aggressively last night and caused a lot of turnovers

I just hope this is my head talking and not my heart. Easy to confuse the two when the subject is the holes.


And hopefully it is a watchable game. Last night was awful even with the heroic comeback...

Go Orange! Beat down the holes!

and remember what huck said: teams with holes can't be in the top 5...

sandinmyshoes
11-20-2009, 07:05 PM
I'll just paste my thoughts from another thread:

I think it'll be interesting to see them against Syracuse tonight. I don't think Syracuse is as good as we are, but I think they probably match up against UNC even better than we do. They'll play the zone defense Coach K is incorporating into his defensive arsenal, and they'll do with players that can match UNC's front line in terms of length and speed (I give UNC a slight speed advantage over us in the frontcourt).

It think Syracuse wins this game by perhaps as much as ten points or so. But, if UNC wins by double figures, I'm going to be much more worried about our match up with them.

I'm especially worried that UNC might be developing some three point shooters. Graves has shown flashes, Ginyard is much improved. Drew has also improved (it would have been impossible not to have given his percentages last year). I also keep remembering that Drew won the 3 point contest at the McDonalds AA game.

Thing is, though, that unlike Green, Ellington and to some extent Lawson, UNC's current batch of shooters rely on something more like a spot up shot. Green and Ellington were much better shooters coming off screen than this current lot.

It'll be intersting to watch UNC try to feed the ball through all those long arms in the Syracuse zone, or try to find places to spot up on the perimeter against the quick to react Syracuse zone.

Mrezt
11-20-2009, 07:51 PM
Damn, Syracuse can shoot the 3 well..

kong123
11-20-2009, 07:55 PM
5 for 5 early on, wonder what the game will look like when they cool off a bit?

kong123
11-20-2009, 08:13 PM
despite a hot Syracuse team and UNC's poor shooting, its still a 3 point game. Should be a good second half.

77devil
11-20-2009, 08:52 PM
Ol' Roy just pulled all the starters to send a message-"aw shucks they just won't listen and play defense."

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-20-2009, 08:54 PM
Turning into a blowout

mgtr
11-20-2009, 08:54 PM
UNC down 17 -- amazing.

roywhite
11-20-2009, 08:56 PM
Great start for 2nd half for Syracuse.

Keep it up.

dukemsu
11-20-2009, 08:57 PM
The Orange are cosmic.

Paging Ed Davis. Mr. Davis....

That's a little harsh. But if he's a top 3 pick after this year, wow. The NBA is really drafting on potential.

dukemsu

ChrisP
11-20-2009, 08:58 PM
God, I wish this game was in the NCAA tournament...

dukemsu
11-20-2009, 09:03 PM
Thing is, Syracuse is playing out of control to the point that the Heels can get back in this.

dukemsu

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-20-2009, 09:08 PM
Hopefully cuse slow it down and carry this win out.

Greg_Newton
11-20-2009, 09:10 PM
UNC is an incredibly streaky team right now. This game (and the last game really) has just been a bunch of alternating 15-0 runs by each team.

I just love watching the Wears play. The last play where Wear1 received the pass, bounced it off his knee into several defenders, somehow clumsily got it back, passed to Wear2 inside who missed wide open layup short, then rebounded and scored, represents the Wear Bros. in a nutshell. Like, yeah, they get it done sometimes, but...:rolleyes:

77devil
11-20-2009, 09:14 PM
Syracuse hasn't met a shot it doesn't like.

SMO
11-20-2009, 09:15 PM
81-62 Syracuse with just over 3 to go, and Vitale just mentioned Paulus at quarterback! Holes fans must be loving that. I was hoping UNC would continue to win with high turnovers and sub-standard play so there was no urgency to improve. Oh well. Game's not over yet!

Kedsy
11-20-2009, 09:16 PM
I just love watching the Wears play. The last play where Wear1 received the pass, bounced it off his knee into several defenders, somehow clumsily got it back, passed to Wear2 inside who missed wide open layup short, then rebounded and scored, represents the Wear Bros. in a nutshell. Like, yeah, they get it done sometimes, but...:rolleyes:

Which is Wear1 and which is Wear2? Or does it matter?

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-20-2009, 09:17 PM
Which is Wear1 and which is Wear2? Or does it matter?

It doesn't :)

SMO
11-20-2009, 09:18 PM
I'm surprised at how easily some of 'Cuse's points in the paint are coming. UNC's bigs don't appear to be having a good defensive game.

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-20-2009, 09:19 PM
This game is LOVELY. Havent seen the Heels struggle like this in a pretty long time.

SMO
11-20-2009, 09:23 PM
This game is LOVELY. Havent seen the Heels struggle like this in a pretty long time.

They look a mess. The talent is there, but this season will be a test of Roy's coaching ability.

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-20-2009, 09:23 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Great to see the heels lose.

roywhite
11-20-2009, 09:27 PM
The camera shot of the Heels' bench after the loss with long faces and towels on the head...one of life's pleasures. :)

RelativeWays
11-20-2009, 09:27 PM
They played pretty well against OSU but not so well today. Its great but I can't get too excited because its November. Honestly, if we have to take a punch in the nose, I hope its soon as well so we can improve come ACC time.

jipops
11-20-2009, 09:27 PM
I don't mind seeing the heels lose, but I still feel this can be a very, very good team. They ran into a hot Cuse team tonight. The heels' upcoming schedule is just brutal. They may encounter a couple more losses but I think this will help them come ACC play, which is unfortunate for us.

The Wear boys are legit.

mgtr
11-20-2009, 09:28 PM
Well, dad gum it! Ol' Roy got a whuppin.

airowe
11-20-2009, 09:31 PM
Quite a nice thing to see. The holes are going to see a lot of zone this season.

I named the Wears the Where?s on TDD. I hope it sticks.

roywhite
11-20-2009, 09:31 PM
The Wear boys are legit.

Well, maybe. Give me the Plumlee boys any day of the week.

sandinmyshoes
11-20-2009, 09:32 PM
The 'cuse nearly doubled my prediction.

I can see us playing a lot of zone against UNC. A whole lot.

Still, I remain cautious, wasn't it in Doherty's last year that UNC embarrassed Kansas in the NIT, and still Williams had them in the NCAA championship game -- the famous "I don't give a..." game?

ipatent
11-20-2009, 09:32 PM
UNC lacks reliable perimeter scoring this year. Take away the inside game with an athletic zone and this is what happens.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-20-2009, 09:33 PM
Better enjoy this now. Carolina isn't likely to stay this disorganized throughout the season!

SMO
11-20-2009, 09:33 PM
UNC lacks reliable perimeter scoring this year. Take away the inside game with an athletic zone and this is what happens.

And there's no quick guard to break it down consistently. Unless that changes, they'll see a lot of zone.

Duvall
11-20-2009, 09:33 PM
The Wear boys are legit.

Legit what?

They're okay, I guess, but it seems like they had a lot of turnovers and missed shots to get their points.

I'm surprised by how much Carolina is relying on last year's veterans. Did John Henson and Dexter Strickland play tonight?

SMO
11-20-2009, 09:35 PM
Better enjoy this now. Carolina isn't likely to stay this disorganized throughout the season!

That's what I thought about Duke in 2006/2007 :rolleyes:

moonpie23
11-20-2009, 09:37 PM
Better enjoy this now. Carolina isn't likely to stay this disorganized throughout the season!

totally agree

AlaskanAssassin
11-20-2009, 09:40 PM
What's going on with McDonald? He didn't play against OSU and he only played for like a minute tonight.

zingit
11-20-2009, 09:42 PM
I listened to the beginning of this game on the radio a little bit as I was driving home, and after the first 8 minutes or so the announcer said that he wasn't concerned at all about how many shots UNC was missing because they were all easy shots that just didn't go in. In fact he said he likes to see his team miss easy shots because the law of averages means they'll start hitting them eventually.

Uhhh, Mr. Announcer Guy, I'm not sure that's how it works. Even then, before I knew how the game would turn out, I had to laugh.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-20-2009, 09:44 PM
You saw a young UNC team get rattled in the second half when the shots didn't fall.Deon had a tough nite again with his touch.

'Cuse has very good strenth inside and some real shooters.That's a good team and well balanced.Top 10.

The Wear twins are players.You guys are nutz if you can't see that.

Thought that Strickland had his best game so far, finally seemed to get the speed of the game.

TO's obviously killed them, that's got to get better.

Young team got spanked by a very good team in basically a home game.That's what happened here.

oldnavy
11-20-2009, 09:44 PM
totally agree

Certainly not, but they have a long way to go. While there is a lot of room for improvement, and a lot of talent in certain positions, I am not convinced that all the parts are there to be a really good team. At least not yet.

roywhite
11-20-2009, 09:47 PM
What's going on with McDonald? He didn't play against OSU and he only played for like a minute tonight.

Highly touted classmates Henson and Strickland didn't play all that much, either. Early season...different environment...makes sense to go with experience.

Just my .02 on Leslie McDonald---he's a good player, but not particularly outstanding in any one area (like outside shooting), so it'll take a while for him to earn a role.

oldnavy
11-20-2009, 09:47 PM
Thought that Strickland had his best game so far, finally seemed to get the speed of the game.

Exactly when did this happen??

Wheat/"/"/"
11-20-2009, 09:56 PM
Exactly when did this happen??

When he was on the court.;) Handled the ball Much better than he has and made better decisions with it.

On my blk berry, will try to comment more next couple days...

MB in MD
11-20-2009, 10:00 PM
A gratifying day

I agree the Wears are better than I expected (well, at least one of them is--I could never tell for sure who was who and if they were both playing well or only one was), but on the other hand Henson is much more of a project than I was led to believe.

But I think judging Carolina on this game and getting all optimistic about our future accordingly is way premature. The defense Boeheim threw at them was perfect and took away almost everything Carolina does well If you don't position yourselves well in the seam and decide quickly when you get an instant his rotations will smother you, and decision making is never a young team's strong suit. I doubt they will see a defense like that the rest of the year, and can only hope that K will take a few lessons from his friend Jim.

And who is this Wesley Johnson creature and why didn't he transfer to our school?

jesus_hurley
11-20-2009, 10:01 PM
You saw a young UNC team get rattled in the second half when the shots didn't fall.Deon had a tough nite again with his touch.

'Cuse has very good strenth inside and some real shooters.That's a good team and well balanced.Top 10.

The Wear twins are players.You guys are nutz if you can't see that.

Thought that Strickland had his best game so far, finally seemed to get the speed of the game.

TO's obviously killed them, that's got to get better.

Young team got spanked by a very good team in basically a home game.That's what happened here.

The Where?s (trying airowe...) are decent on the offensive end - they can hit the mid range jumper and put it on the floor to keep the defense honest. As long as they don't try that too often against smaller, quicker players they should be fine Defensively they haven't really shown anything yet. I've said this in another thread as well - it seems like all the UNC bigs have the same skillset. Athletic, but not really willing to mix it up with other big men.



EDIT: dang, didn't see Boozer said the same thing I did

roywhite
11-20-2009, 10:01 PM
When he was on the court.;) Handled the ball Much better than he has and made better decisions with it.

On my blk berry, will try to comment more next couple days...

Perhaps that was progress of sorts, but Strickland's stats were:

0 points
0-3 shooting
1 turnover
1 steal

Not much of an impact.

oldnavy
11-20-2009, 10:04 PM
When he was on the court.;) Handled the ball Much better than he has and made better decisions with it.

On my blk berry, will try to comment more next couple days...

Ok Wheat, I know this had to be a rough night for you so I will lay off. But are you sure you want to use tonights game as an example of when one of your players "got it"? You got run at the beginning of the second half, had 20+ turnovers, scored less than 70 points and you are happy with your back up PG play? I love your positivity!!

superdave
11-20-2009, 10:08 PM
Drew seems like the key for unc this season. I half-watched tonight but he certainly didnt stand out. He's quick but certainly pales to Lawson in that regard. I wonder what other' perceptions of Drew are after two televised top 25 opponents....?

Also, I didnt see Henson any of the time I watched and was suprised to see the Wears. (is it pronounced weer or ware?)

Seems like unc can exploit some matchups if they can establish the run and their size. But it also seems like they can bogged down in the half and still are not committed to defense for 40 minutes. Guess those are the typical pitfalls of an Ole Roy team. That and arrogance.

jesus_hurley
11-20-2009, 10:10 PM
Drew seems like the key for unc this season. I half-watched tonight but he certainly didnt stand out. He's quick but certainly pales to Lawson in that regard. I wonder what other' perceptions of Drew are after two televised top 25 opponents....?

Also, I didnt see Henson any of the time I watched and was suprised to see the Wears. (is it pronounced weer or ware?)

Seems like unc can exploit some matchups if they can establish the run and their size. But it also seems like they can bogged down in the half and still are not committed to defense for 40 minutes. Guess those are the typical pitfalls of an Ole Roy team. That and arrogance.

It's actually pronounced Where?s

natedog4ever
11-20-2009, 10:15 PM
Closing comment on the UNC radio broadcast:

"You don't want to go into the locker room and see certain guys laughing and yucking it up 15 minutes after the second worst defeat of Roy's tarheel career."

This season is going to be fun.

Oh, and one more thing - did anyone see the self-pass Drew threw to himself in the first half? He picked up the ball with both hands while running so he had to let it go, then ran with it down court long enough for it to be considered a pass (I guess), then picked it back up with no call. Now those are some serious point guard skills.

They are going to lose big against Mich. State and Texas, but . . . this Kentucky game is getting intriguing - they suck as well.

jipops
11-20-2009, 10:15 PM
Well, maybe. Give me the Plumlee boys any day of the week.

I'm looking forward to seeing BOTH play, hopefully soon. I haven't seen enough of the Wears to judge their defense but their offense seems pretty advanced already. Fortunately Miles seems to have developed, yes developed, into a very serviceable player on both ends of the floor.

Newton_14
11-20-2009, 10:26 PM
The Where?s (trying airowe...) are decent on the offensive end - they can hit the mid range jumper and put it on the floor to keep the defense honest. As long as they don't try that too often against smaller, quicker players they should be fine Defensively they haven't really shown anything yet. I've said this in another thread as well - it seems like all the UNC bigs have the same skillset. Athletic, but not really willing to mix it up with other big men.



EDIT: dang, didn't see Boozer said the same thing I did

No worries! Just means we both see the same thing. I am trying to decide how much it will hurt them not having the banger inside. Jury still out on that.

And I keep trying to see what Wheat and the other heel guys that post here like Kong123, and 8yearolds see in the Doublemint Where Twins, but I just don't see anything there yet beyond nice fundamentals.

Travis does appear to be the better of the two and he has good ball handling skills, but so far I am still scratching my head. With the nice rotation of Thompson, Davis, and Zeller, not sure why huck insists on giving them so many minutes right away.

HCheek37
11-20-2009, 10:30 PM
ahhh glad to see the holes go down in a ugly ugly fashion. hopefully will see another version of holes lose tomorrow as I'll be at the BC vs UNC football game...GTHC GTH

Newton_14
11-20-2009, 10:33 PM
"Oh, and one more thing - did anyone see the self-pass Drew threw to himself in the first half? He picked up the ball with both hands while running so he had to let it go, then ran with it down court long enough for it to be considered a pass (I guess), then picked it back up with no call. Now those are some serious point guard skills.


2nd- That was actually Strickland with the walk, carry, pass to self. He had just come in the game. The ref totally blew that one.

roywhite
11-20-2009, 10:36 PM
No worries! Just means we both see the same thing. I am trying to decide how much it will hurt them not having the banger inside. Jury still out on that.

And I keep trying to see what Wheat and the other heel guys that post here like Kong123, and 8yearolds see in the Doublemint Where Twins, but I just don't see anything there yet beyond nice fundamentals.

Travis does appear to be the better of the two and he has good ball handling skills, but so far I am still scratching my head. With the nice rotation of Thompson, Davis, and Zeller, not sure why huck insists on giving them so many minutes right away.

Yeah, Thompson, Davis, Zeller, 2 Wears---good players but that UNC team looks so different without the great PG to set the table or take it to the hoop.

Could Drew be that guy? Strickland? Kendall Marshall next year?

I'll take Mr. Steady Scheyer this year and Kyrie in the future; that part of the matchup is tilting towards Durham.

Newton_14
11-20-2009, 10:40 PM
Yeah, Thompson, Davis, Zeller, 2 Wears---good players but that UNC team looks so different without the great PG to set the table or take it to the hoop.

Could Drew be that guy? Strickland? Kendall Marshall next year?

I'll take Mr. Steady Scheyer this year and Kyrie in the future; that part of the matchup is tilting towards Durham.

Yes Roy. We now have the upper hand with the PG slot for the immediate future.
But they also lost the banger in Hans and they have no one in that mold on the current team. Do you see that being an issue as the season moves on or is it somewhat a non-factor??

miramar
11-20-2009, 10:50 PM
Carolina is averaging 19.2 turnovers per game so far vs. 12.5 last year. It won't last forever but it's fun to watch.

roywhite
11-20-2009, 10:52 PM
Yes Roy. We now have the upper hand with the PG slot for the immediate future.
But they also lost the banger in Hans and they have no one in that mold on the current team. Do you see that being an issue as the season moves on or is it somewhat a non-factor??

Losing Hans? huge
These other Carolina big guys have size and ability, but they are "just" good players; Hans was special because he went at it so hard. His production was awesome, and he was a force every night.

UNC has talent and a good coach; they're very likely to improve, but they aren't the same without a Lawson-type or a Hansbrough-type.

natedog4ever
11-20-2009, 10:55 PM
2nd- That was actually Strickland with the walk, carry, pass to self. He had just come in the game. The ref totally blew that one.

Thanks for the correction - I'm slightly dissapointed that it wasn't Drew II (electric boogaloo), but then again it's also funny that it was good old Dex.

Also of note - the half court offense that had Henson dribbling laterally back and forth 35 feet from the basket. I've never seen it before, but it was scary. And by "scary" I mean there is an alien running back and forth across the court.

jipops
11-20-2009, 11:11 PM
You saw a young UNC team get rattled in the second half when the shots didn't fall.Deon had a tough nite again with his touch.

'Cuse has very good strenth inside and some real shooters.That's a good team and well balanced.Top 10.

The Wear twins are players.You guys are nutz if you can't see that.

Thought that Strickland had his best game so far, finally seemed to get the speed of the game.

TO's obviously killed them, that's got to get better.

Young team got spanked by a very good team in basically a home game.That's what happened here.

Ohio State looked much more impressive against Cal, makes that win look better for your boys.

Going back-to-back can't be easy for a young squad. It's actually understandable that things would fall apart a bit.

CDu
11-20-2009, 11:15 PM
And I keep trying to see what Wheat and the other heel guys that post here like Kong123, and 8yearolds see in the Doublemint Where Twins, but I just don't see anything there yet beyond nice fundamentals.

Travis does appear to be the better of the two and he has good ball handling skills, but so far I am still scratching my head. With the nice rotation of Thompson, Davis, and Zeller, not sure why huck insists on giving them so many minutes right away.

Couldn't agree more. When left to their own devices, they are capable of not bungling things (which is more than I can say for many freshman big men). But they aren't impact players anytime soon. They have good touch and don't make bad decisions. But unless someone does the heavy lifting for them, they don't bring much to the table. I guess it's a matter of perspective. If left open, they've got the ability to hit jumpers. If you search for positives, they'll occasionally show you something. But if you are looking for guys who can consistently make plays, they aren't going to fit the bill.

I can't say how much fun this was to watch as a Duke fan. Carolina doesn't get enough pure whoopins. That second half was a thing of beauty.

I'll say this. Marcus Ginyard should be commended for the effort he's put in. I realize he said some dumb things about our program, but he's worked hard and is a competitor, and gets everything out of his skillset. Unfortunately for UNC, he seems to be the only one doing that on this team so far.

Davis's statline looked a lot better than I thought his performance was. He just looks so awkward at times. I don't remember that last year, but that's probably because he had so much more talent around him.

Zeller continues to appear to be purely a finesse big man. Good touch and athleticism, but no desire to mix it up in the paint. One rebound in 16 minutes for a 7-footer? Hmm...

Aside from Ginyard, their guards/wings really took it on the chin tonight. They combined for 2-20 from the field, with only Graves scoring.

The freshmen class for UNC just looks like they have a ton of development to do. The guards are nonexistent, the twins can do stuff if ignored but otherwise are nonexistent, and Henson just appears not ready for college ball. It's surprising. If this team is going to compete, the guards especially are going to have to come a long way.

Let's enjoy it while it lasts. I think we'll get another opportunity or two over the next month, but who knows how long it will last?

Newton_14
11-20-2009, 11:23 PM
Couldn't agree more. When left to their own devices, they are capable of not bungling things (which is more than I can say for many freshman big men). But they aren't impact players anytime soon. They have good touch and don't make bad decisions. But unless someone does the heavy lifting for them, they don't bring much to the table. I guess it's a matter of perspective. If left open, they've got the ability to hit jumpers. If you search for positives, they'll occasionally show you something. But if you are looking for guys who can consistently make plays, they aren't going to fit the bill.

I can't say how much fun this was to watch as a Duke fan. Carolina doesn't get enough pure whoopins. That second half was a thing of beauty.

I'll say this. Marcus Ginyard should be commended for the effort he's put in. I realize he said some dumb things about our program, but he's worked hard and is a competitor, and gets everything out of his skillset. Unfortunately for UNC, he seems to be the only one doing that on this team so far.

Davis's statline looked a lot better than I thought his performance was. He just looks so awkward at times. I don't remember that last year, but that's probably because he had so much more talent around him.

Zeller continues to appear to be purely a finesse big man. Good touch and athleticism, but no desire to mix it up in the paint. One rebound in 16 minutes for a 7-footer? Hmm...

Aside from Ginyard, their guards/wings really took it on the chin tonight. They combined for 2-20 from the field, with only Graves scoring.

The freshmen class for UNC just looks like they have a ton of development to do. The guards are nonexistent, the twins can do stuff if ignored but otherwise are nonexistent, and Henson just appears not ready for college ball. It's surprising. If this team is going to compete, the guards especially are going to have to come a long way.

Let's enjoy it while it lasts. I think we'll get another opportunity or two over the next month, but who knows how long it will last?

I am with you on all of that. And like I said, Ginyard is a great player and will no doubt be the leader of that team. He plays defense the way it is supposed to be played. And I did predict he would step up and improve his 3 point shot and so far he has shown that. I did not like the article and the things he said but I never questioned his skill set and what he brings to the team. Without him they would be in a world of hurt perimeter wise.

It's going to be interesting to see how this team progresses. It's just an odd mix of talent..

Azdukefan
11-20-2009, 11:36 PM
Can you say exposed? Can you say overrated? Can you say......Duke sweep?

-jk
11-20-2009, 11:36 PM
Can you say exposed? Can you say overrated? Can you say......Duke sweep?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves...

-jk

Chris4UNC
11-20-2009, 11:48 PM
Some of you have already seen of your arch-rivals what I have seen. The Heels are going to have a heck of a time against zone defense. There is work to be done for sure. Several things stood out tonight.

(1) When their opponents are breaking down court they are slow getting down court to defend.

(2) They need to get more aggressive under the basket. They did out rebound the Orange but when going up to score they lacked purpose.

(3) Their guards need to attack the basket, drive down the lane more. You depend on guards to run the offense and create scoring. By driving the lane, drawing the defense and finding the open man or getting fouled a guard must make things happen. UNC's guards seem intimidated by the zones getting thrown at them and are simply waiting for their man underneath to get open.

Kedsy
11-20-2009, 11:49 PM
But I think judging Carolina on this game and getting all optimistic about our future accordingly is way premature.

Why would a judgment about Carolina have any bearing on our future one way or the other?

dukemsu
11-21-2009, 12:13 AM
Ah, Roy. From the postgame: "I'd hate to play that non-Division I team that beat them," Williams said.

Even after getting his clock cleaned, Ol' Roy has to get in a backhanded shot at the team he just played. I'm sure he did it with the awshucksdadgumit grin that leaves everyone thinking it was a compliment.

On a more serious note, the Heels will be fine. To expect a team that lost their entire identity to just reload and be a humming machine a few games in is unrealistic. Roy has a ton of pieces to play with, and he'll find a combo that works. When that will be is anyone's guess.

The bigger issue tonight was Syracuse. That is one good-looking basketball team-for November. Great inside-outside balance. No one will want them in their bracket.

dukemsu

-bdbd
11-21-2009, 12:33 AM
Some of you have already seen of your arch-rivals what I have seen. The Heels are going to have a heck of a time against zone defense. There is work to be done for sure. Several things stood out tonight.
(1) When their opponents are breaking down court they are slow getting down court to defend.
(2) They need to get more aggressive under the basket. They did out rebound the Orange but when going up to score they lacked purpose.
(3) Their guards need to attack the basket, drive down the lane more. You depend on guards to run the offense and create scoring. By driving the lane, drawing the defense and finding the open man or getting fouled a guard must make things happen. UNC's guards seem intimidated by the zones getting thrown at them and are simply waiting for their man underneath to get open.

Just watched the very end of the first and most of the second half. Gotta say, that's about as enjoyable a 20 minutes of BB I've seen in a while. While the unc@ch fans posting here want to pretend that it was all "short-term," easily corrected things -- like a few odd turnovers, just a bad shooting night, slowness getting down court, lack of intensity for a couple guys in rebounding -- what I saw was very encouraging, and not stuff all that easily "fixed", regardless whether you think ole Huck is any good at "developing players." (I for one see him as more the master recruiter/salesman, but not a primo X's and O's or player development guy. But hey, if you can bring in the best players, who NEEDS to develop em anyhow??)

What I saw was a team with really mediocre guards in terms of ball-handling and driving ABILITIES (i.e not much a little coaching can do about it likely). I saw a general lack of aggressiveness among most of their players -- inside and out. That's certainly somewhat addressable in coaching, but not the sort of thing that is definitely easily "turned around" anytime soon. These guys are NOT going to turn into a bunch of hyper-aggressive Hansbroughs over night...and even if they did, they won't get the Hansblah allocation of about 12 fouls a night (less than half of which getting called). ;) But most of all, I just don't see this as a team skilled in terms of outside shooting, at all. Nobody seemed able to shoot consistently much beyond 12 feet. That's again something that you can work on, and improve over time, but they certainly don't seem to be starting with an overabundance of natural ability in that area.

As for the Where? brothers, if y'all recall, it was a bit of a minor controversy in recruiting circles that ole Huck took their commits so early in the recruiting process. At the time several on these boards fretted openly about unc@ch getting out ahead of us in the 2009 HS recruiting class -- but by their senior year it was believed by most analysts that, while these two brothers were certainly "good" (think top-35) caliber recruits, they didn't quite pan out as predicted (during their junior year they were maybe forecasted at about 10-15 slots higher). At the same time one of the (same class) recruits that ole Roy passed on in order to take the Wheres?, despite the kid being a stated UNC fan and from a N.C. High School prep program, actually moved UP the lists to top-15 status...a kid by the name of Mason Plumlee.... I look forward to seeing him match up against them come Feb/March. Thanks for the gift Roy! :D

This game certainly makes one feel good about the added amount of zone-D Caoach K is having our squad practice this year. Could be really useful come time of those rivalry games (and probably earlier given our length, and lack of guard depth).... I'm feeling a whole lot better about our chances for winning the regular season, and then winning the ACC championship in Greensboro!

:)

superdave
11-21-2009, 12:57 AM
Yes Roy. We now have the upper hand with the PG slot for the immediate future.
But they also lost the banger in Hans and they have no one in that mold on the current team. Do you see that being an issue as the season moves on or is it somewhat a non-factor??

Davis, Zeller, Thompson, et al do not seem to enjoy contact. A lot of athleticism and finesse, not much bulk and brute force.

And they dont shoot the three well. They better get a lot of tip ins and fast break points this season.

moonpie23
11-21-2009, 01:34 AM
Can you say exposed? Can you say overrated? Can you say......Duke sweep?

dood....stop....

BlueintheFace
11-21-2009, 02:23 AM
Like I said last night. Right now Carolina is an average team that can look great or terrible depending on the matchup. They have the potential to be very good, but they are average right now.

Wander
11-21-2009, 02:30 AM
I said the other day that UNC did not look good against Ohio State, especially on offense. Sure they won, but it's not a single elimination deal in November - you look at how teams perform and improve, and not just whether they win or lose. This loss to Syracuse is not surprising at all. Carolina has a surprisingly low amount of skill on offense, and while it's very early, I suspect Roy is going to have to find another backup point guard (Ginyard?) or increase Drew's minutes - Strickland is absolutely terrible.

Bob Green
11-21-2009, 02:40 AM
I suspect Roy is going to have to find another backup point guard (Ginyard?) or increase Drew's minutes - Strickland is absolutely terrible.

Larry Drew II 25 minutes 0 points
Dexter Strickland 15 minutes 0 points
Justin Watts 6 minutes 0 points
Leslie McDonald 5 minutes 0 points

Carolina has some serious backcourt issues.

oldnavy
11-21-2009, 07:14 AM
Larry Drew II 25 minutes 0 points
Dexter Strickland 15 minutes 0 points
Justin Watts 6 minutes 0 points
Leslie McDonald 5 minutes 0 points

Carolina has some serious backcourt issues.

Yea and the front court has yet to really impress me either. They are big, but not over powering.

Saratoga2
11-21-2009, 07:29 AM
They are a load inside and have two really stellar shooters, one of which can create his own shot. Their defensive awareness and agressiveness is really superior and they really know how to play an effective zone. They will beat a lot of teams and have to be thought of as one of the top ten after what they did to UNC.

UNC on the other hand looked a bit timid inside. Ginyard was their only bright spot for most of the game. They will beat a lot of teams with their size and depth but may fall in the ACC to several. I think of GT and Clemson giving them fits and right now Duke is superior in experience and is learning to play zone. My guess is UNC finishes 4th in the ACC.

Kedsy
11-21-2009, 07:38 AM
They are a load inside and have two really stellar shooters, one of which can create his own shot. Their defensive awareness and agressiveness is really superior and they really know how to play an effective zone. They will beat a lot of teams and have to be thought of as one of the top ten after what they did to UNC.

UNC on the other hand looked a bit timid inside. Ginyard was their only bright spot for most of the game. They will beat a lot of teams with their size and depth but may fall in the ACC to several. I think of GT and Clemson giving them fits and right now Duke is superior in experience and is learning to play zone. My guess is UNC finishes 4th in the ACC.

Hmm. If UNC is really the fourth best team in the ACC, as you say, why should a team who beats the fourth place ACC team by 16 points automatically be considered a top ten team? On the surface, your two statements appear somewhat inconsistent.

oldnavy
11-21-2009, 07:48 AM
Closing comment on the UNC radio broadcast:

"You don't want to go into the locker room and see certain guys laughing and yucking it up 15 minutes after the second worst defeat of Roy's tarheel career."

I can only hope this is true!! Like folks on this board have said, chemistry on a team gets challenged during adversity, let's see how this young group of heels and Ol Huck handle this. I hope they implode like the 8-20 team, but I suspect they won't, so I am going to enjoy this one for a few days!

MB in MD
11-21-2009, 08:29 AM
Why would a judgment about Carolina have any bearing on our future one way or the other?

Well sure, I take your point but what I meant was trying to project what our game against them would be like

CDu
11-21-2009, 08:30 AM
Like I said last night. Right now Carolina is an average team that can look great or terrible depending on the matchup. They have the potential to be very good, but they are average right now.

I agree with you except about the average part. They aren't average, unless you're extending your definition of average quite a bit. I'd say they are a top-25 team right now, and that's far above average.

I agree with you that they are not elite right now, because of the glaring deficiencies (turnovers, lack of shooting, etc). But their size and interior skill alone keep them above average. There's a big difference between elite and average.

Now, compared to some recent years (and not just recent UNC teams), I agree they are a much more pedestrian team. But this year, a much more pedestrian team can qualify as top-25.

kong123
11-21-2009, 08:35 AM
Vitale said last night that if they had Lawson, they would be unstoppable. Its all about guard play.....

roywhite
11-21-2009, 08:39 AM
Vitale said last night that if they had Lawson, they would be unstoppable. Its all about guard play.....

Ty Lawson is not walking through that door.

RainingThrees
11-21-2009, 08:40 AM
Good game last night. What I want to know is how Roy is going to address his teams turnover problems. Despite my dislike for him he is a good coach and will be brooding on his teams major fault.

Heelkiller1
11-21-2009, 08:46 AM
I love seeing (North Carolina routed......) scrolling across the bottom of my screen.No matter who it was that beat them.

oldnavy
11-21-2009, 09:46 AM
That brings me to a point or question rather about Ginyard. Is he a leader??

During the game last night when things were going south for the holes, there was a play that caught my attention. Ginyard went to the lane and got bumped by the big fellow (name?) from Cuse. Ginyard went to the ground and laid there for a second and then got up and ran down the court. On the return trip, he was walking slowly and eventually came out of the game. Two things that caught my attention during that sequence.

1. I noticed that Roy did not even acknowledge Ginyard while he was on the floor, and it took a few seconds for a trainer to come over??? Significant??

2. After some time on the bench he was back out there running up and down like nothing had happened. He had the wind knocked out of him, well OK...

In my OPINION, Ginyard was embarrassed by the play and subsequent no call and feigned an "injury" to cover up. It happens a lot, and is a real pet peeve of mine. That is why I LOVE Singler. Remember how he has got plowed several times and always pops back up with a "is that all you got?" look.

Anyway, the question I have is this, IS Ginyard a true floor leader?

Opinions, please!!

Devilsfan
11-21-2009, 10:11 AM
You got that right, he was embarrassed. You see it alot in players that are made to look bad against their competition and in front of their piers. And it's so nice to see a Carolina team get their butts kicked on national TV in the Garden no less. By one of K's best friends' team.

moonpie23
11-21-2009, 10:25 AM
as much as it was about lawson, hanstravel was the ROCK of carolina's success. there have been plenty of posters here that made statements about what a great player he would have been on duke's team. I wouldn't call him a floor "general", but he was extremely consistant and dependable....

he worked every play...as simple as that sounds, it's the truth......and you know what? he's doing it now for indiana......

now, before i go too far (i don't want to turn this into a hans petting-fest) but has anyone noticed the physical changes in his body this year? he's been in the weight room.

Bluealum
11-21-2009, 10:26 AM
It strikes me as amusing that we can have quite a bit of hyper-ventilating about our perceived recruiting inferiority to our Carolina bretheren, while at the same time postulating about season sweeps and 8-20 seasons (I know this was in jest – extreme example) after a single lousy early season showing against a good team.

Some thoughts after watching the heels (holes if you prefer) for a couple of games.

They really are going to USE all of that interior depth that they have. I had guessed the ‘where bros’ would get very little playing time while Thomson, Davis, and the Giraffe would consume 90% of the PT at the 1 and 2 spots, but ol’ Roy true to form uses everyone even if there are significant drop offs with personnel early in the season.

Frankly, both Ginyard and Drew 2 are better than I anticipated (Ginyard has a better shot – that requires high ceilings – and Drew 2 does handle the ball well) but Strickland and McDonald aren’t as ready as the pale blue optimists would have hoped. Its possible that depth will be more of an issue than quality in their guard spots.

Henson is really a ‘tweener and finding a good fit for him will be a challenge. I suspect he will be great in some matchups and a real liability in others. Same issue we have with Zoubs, although in a very different type of athelete.

Its interesting to contrast the coaching styles of K and ol’ R. K has openly talked about developing his ‘core’ group, and you can see references to this philosophy in our player quotes. K talked about how the 3 S’s will be the strength of our team and he wants to play them a lot together early because of this. Saying things like this gives confidence to his star players, but it also subtly puts a ceiling on the potential roles of the remaining players.

Ol’ R, on the other hand seems to play everybody early. This certainly elongates the time it takes for the team to develop chemistry and it leaves open the question of whom the go-to guys will be for a long time. It does however allow for the possiblity that someone unexpected will develop into a ‘core’ player over the course of the season, and it certainly develops depth.

I would also argue that our team is less susceptible to mental up’s and downs as there are clear leaders who are always on the court ready to push the team when concentration wanes. This leadership may or may not get developed in ol’ R’s system and is more dependent on the personalities of his players, which makes Ginyard and Thompson critical to the development of their team. To OldNavy's question, I think it remains to be seen if Ginyard is a leader, I suspect he will be to an extent because as you noticed ol' R is going to demand it. Even less sure about Deon though...

In short I agree with the posters that say it is too early to judge the heels when playing a good team ideally suited to beat them (solid interior, great zone defense, and excellent 3 point shooting). Syracuse was clearly on and the heels were off. They did make a good OSU team look pretty bad till latter part of the 2nd half the previous day. It is however safe to say that consdering them one of the 5 best teams in the nation is absurd and would be a stretch even for the end of the season. The polls will be adjusted accordingly on Monday anyway.

For our squad, since we are going to gain a lot of confidence early in our ‘core’ team (S,S,S, Miles, Lance, Dawk) I think our potential really hinges on the development and emergence of our non-‘core’ team (Zoubs, Mason-post rehab, Ryan, and perhaps Olek). In that sense the early challenges we have had may wind up being a blessing for this group.

A final point, while I enjoy the rivarly, I hope we (Duke fans) are never as obsessed with the pale blue crew as they are with us. Or for that matter, as Maryland is with us, or NC State can be with the holes for that matter. Obsession is the mark of inferiority, and we have no reason for that. Great coach, great kids, great students, and a whole lot of success.

Hoping for a memorable season, with lots of player development and a whole lot of wins! It certainly looks good early!

moonpie23
11-21-2009, 10:30 AM
welcome Bluealum. pull up a seat... :)

Devilsfan
11-21-2009, 10:40 AM
Looks like the felton/lawson rocketship guard era is oner for now, thank goodness.

airowe
11-21-2009, 11:12 AM
Looks like the felton/lawson rocketship guard era is oner for now, thank goodness.

It ain't coming back next year either. Kendall Marshall does a lot of things well, but being speedy is not one of them...

oldnavy
11-21-2009, 11:26 AM
Looks like the felton/lawson rocketship guard era is oner for now, thank goodness.

Amen to that! I get the sense that at times Drew II tries to be that type of player, but he rarely, rarely (if ever) really beats anyone down the court. Certainly nothing like Lawson or Felton would do.

Vitale is a moron! A lovable Moron, but Moron nonetheless. This team would NOT be unstoppable with Ty Lawson. They would be much better, no doubt, but they still do not have the perimeter shooting (Ellington/Green), or the banger - rock steady post player (Hansblah).

Last year’s team was pretty much unstoppable, but this year’s version needs more than just Ty Lawson to be a dominant team.

ncexnyc
11-21-2009, 11:40 AM
Love seeing the heels get smashed, but I hate to remind everyone we've been down this road before.

Last year after those two early loses, a number of you were gloating and crowing about how they weren't an NCAA Championship caliber team and we saw how that turned out.:(

There's a ton of basketball left to be played and the heels do have talent. I'm sure come March, they'll be right there with us as always.

RainingThrees
11-21-2009, 11:45 AM
In regards to Ginyard i nocticed that to. I really thought he was injured and thought it was strange how fast he came back on without any problems. Faking injuries does happen a lot and I've experienced it playing on sports teams myself, and it is not very good for team chemistry at all.

rsvman
11-21-2009, 11:50 AM
I agree with others who have posted, essentially, that this TarHeel team is not as bad as they looked last night. They have issues to deal with, certainly, but they will get better as the season progresses, and will be up for the rivalry game, to be sure.

I think we have an excellent chance of beating them when we play them, but then again, I think we have a good chance of beating them everytime we play them.

It will not be easy for Roy to replace Hansborough's work ethic and willingness to bang down low, Lawson's speed and ability to drive into the lane, and Green/Ellington's outside shooting ability, but I trust that he will field a competitive team all season long, even if they have some big losses early.

Saratoga2
11-21-2009, 11:50 AM
Hmm. If UNC is really the fourth best team in the ACC, as you say, why should a team who beats the fourth place ACC team by 16 points automatically be considered a top ten team? On the surface, your two statements appear somewhat inconsistent.

They just didn't beat UNC, they trashed them. They will give a lot of people trouble because of their aggressive zone, which most clubs don't see frequently and because they have experience and scoring ability at all positions. I couldn't name 10 other teams better at this point, can you?

The reason I say Clemson will cause UNC trouble is their ball pressure. UNC doesn't have the guards to handle Clemsons high pressure style.

GT have big people who will play tough inside, something UNC can't answer right now at least.

Duke has experience and plays better together. We do have to wait for tests against better teams to see how well our bigs will do against teams with a high quality inside game.

sandinmyshoes
11-21-2009, 11:51 AM
I'll enjoy this gap between the Felton/Lawson era and the beginning of the Marshall era. We're going to change from being frustrated by speed to behing frustrated by savvy passing. Marshall is possibly as good a passer as Cota, but plays harder than Cota ever did.

But the good news is that it's easier to find a defensive game plan against that sort of passer than it is to match up against the kind of speed Felton and Lawson possessed.

They get to worry about that now, with Irving.

sandinmyshoes
11-21-2009, 11:57 AM
In regards to Ginyard i nocticed that to. I really thought he was injured and thought it was strange how fast he came back on without any problems. Faking injuries does happen a lot and I've experienced it playing on sports teams myself, and it is not very good for team chemistry at all.

I confess I went over to IC to hopefully read some handwringing quotes from Williams and his players, but Ginyard actually gave me a chuckle talking about his injury.

"What happened when you got hurt? "

“Two-hundred sixty met 210. That’s really what happened. I just got big-boy’d…Side, rib, I don’t know. Yeah, my stomach’s hurting, but it’s the least of our worries.”


Big boy'd, that's pretty good. :cool:

DevilHorns
11-21-2009, 12:10 PM
Man it felt good to watch that game last night. My gf went to UNC, so she's one of those "fans." I asked her yesterday who UNC played last year in the championship.... she didn't know so I gave her 3 choices: Memphis, Mich St, or UConn. She picked Memphis. I shook my head. The best part of the night was when she said "Why the hell would Roy recruit twins, is this some sort of gimmick?"

It felt good to see the thrashing last night, but I'm sure come ACC time, and come Duke-UNC time, they will be playing well. Hopefully just well and not scary well.

In other news, man I can't wait for Kyrie.

moonpie23
11-21-2009, 12:20 PM
In other news, man I can't wait for Kyrie.

i don't know about y'all, but i'm REALLY gonna enjoy andre/nolan this season......(altho, i am missing ewill :( )

oldnavy
11-21-2009, 12:26 PM
In regards to Ginyard i nocticed that to. I really thought he was injured and thought it was strange how fast he came back on without any problems. Faking injuries does happen a lot and I've experienced it playing on sports teams myself, and it is not very good for team chemistry at all.

It is not good for chemistry no matter who does it, but when it is a senior, go-to guy it really hurts because he sets the tone.

Ginyards whole attitude seems a little arrogant to me, from the way he holds his head (nose up), to the smirk on his face. Plus his comments about Duke... why doesn't he just shut up and play?

kong123
11-21-2009, 01:37 PM
It is not good for chemistry no matter who does it, but when it is a senior, go-to guy it really hurts because he sets the tone.

Ginyards whole attitude seems a little arrogant to me, from the way he holds his head (nose up), to the smirk on his face. Plus his comments about Duke... why doesn't he just shut up and play?

I believe he got the wind knocked out of him. It took him a moment to recover. Did you watch the game or do you just comment on everything without any knowledge? Your comments really discredit this board. Don't be such a homer......

RainingThrees
11-21-2009, 01:39 PM
I believe he got the wind knocked out of him. It took him a moment to recover. Did you watch the game or do you just comment on everything without any knowledge? Your comments really discredit this board. Don't be such a homer......

We're done. The whole board now has no credit at all. Sorry guys, I'm going to have to cancel my account, information here is no longer reliable.

natedog4ever
11-21-2009, 01:46 PM
I believe he got the wind knocked out of him. It took him a moment to recover. Did you watch the game or do you just comment on everything without any knowledge? Your comments really discredit this board. Don't be such a homer......

G in the yard's preseason comments regarding Duke players discredited his university. Oldnavy's comments were clearly based on personal observations, so I will assume he is watching something.

You could be a homer, but this is a Duke board.

oldnavy
11-21-2009, 06:02 PM
G in the yard's preseason comments regarding Duke players discredited his university. Oldnavy's comments were clearly based on personal observations, so I will assume he is watching something.

You could be a homer, but this is a Duke board.

Of course I watched the game and of course I am a homer.

Yes, I heard he had the wind knocked out of him, but when I have had the wind knocked out of me, I did not get right up and run. You simply cannot do it. Your natural instinct is to try and breath almost as a panic instinct. That is why I find it questionable that he popped up and then sprinted down the floor, only to have to sit down when the ref called a timeout. I THINK he was embarassed, it is not fact but opinion...

I will let the MODS determine if I discredit the board,.

moonpie23
11-22-2009, 09:10 AM
I will let the MODS determine if I discredit the board,.

actually, the mods will just determine if you are following the rules, everyone else will determine if you are adrift in the harbor of silent judgement.
:eek:

slower
11-22-2009, 09:27 AM
Your comments really discredit this board. Don't be such a homer......

This is the DUKE Basketball Report, friend. If you're concerned about poor old Ginyard's feelings (especially in light of his yapping), you may want to prepare for a LOT more "homerism" around here.

BTW, a quick perusal of your posting history reveals that you post almost exclusively on 'Hole-related threads. Not that there's anything WRONG with that...:)