Duke-UNC 2010

[Blueequalslife23]

To be honest... more excited this year than in a long time. I felt as every other year in the last couple we were the underdog. I like our team/ style and watching the holes almost blow that lead tonight is comforting. I'm unbelievably pumped. Any thoughts to the game? Anybody watch the rivalry in a specific way?

[Bob Green]

There is a whole lot of basketball to be played before February 10, 2010. I'm focused on our non-conference foes between now and the start of the ACC season. We have two big games in NYC next week, the ACC-Big Ten Challenge game against Wisconsin, and a return trip to MSG to face Gonzaga on December 19th. Those games represent opportunities for the team to improve on court execution and an opportunity for the youngsters to continue to adjust to the college game. Our first ACC game, on January 3, 2010 is against a very talented Clemson team.

But I guess it is never too early to talk about UNC (who will be improving and adjusting as well).

1.) Our backcourt is much better than Carolina's backcourt. I'm not sure how Carolina deals with our talented and experienced trio. By February I expect Andre Dawkins to be much better than he is in November and he is pretty darn impressive right now.
2.) Carolina's frontcourt is more experienced than our frontcourt and Deon Thompson is a very good player. However, early indications are our frontcourt play is solid with Miles Plumlee having the potential to develop into a beast.
3.) Our bench is more talented than Carolina's bench especially once Mason Plumlee is healthy.

Advantage Duke. I expect we will sweep the Heels this year. Personally, I hope we beat them four times!

[kong123]

We have three players that will average double digits this year, while the hole will probably have 4 or 5. Their balanced scoring will help them through the occasional off night. On the other hand, our big three have to show up every night, with no drop offs. I think saying that our bench is more talented than there's isn't a true statement. They play 10 to 11 guys each night to our 7, maybe 8. As always, it will be a battle, personally I think we will split.

[oldnavy]

We have three players that will average double digits this year, while the hole will probably have 4 or 5. Their balanced scoring will help them through the occasional off night. On the other hand, our big three have to show up every night, with no drop offs. I think saying that our bench is more talented than there's isn't a true statement. They play 10 to 11 guys each night to our 7, maybe 8. As always, it will be a battle, personally I think we will split.

Kong, I get the sense you are a glass half-full type of guy. After watching the holes play 4 times now, and not seeing anything that impresses me about their team, I would say that at this point we are superior to them in every aspect of the game, including frontline play. I think your assessment that we need our three guys to bring it everynight underestimates guys like MP1, MP2 and Dawkins, etc... they have the skills to step up and fill a void. YES, if S, S and S all stink one night we will have a hard time, but come on...

Their bench will shorten come January. The heels will go 8-9 deep and so will we.

I say we have the advantage as far as bench depth and strength, backcourt and that the frontcourt is basically even.

[kong123]

Kong, I get the sense you are a glass half-full type of guy. After watching the holes play 4 times now, and not seeing anything that impresses me about their team, I would say that at this point we are superior to them in every aspect of the game, including frontline play. I think your assessment that we need our three guys to bring it everynight underestimates guys like MP1, MP2 and Dawkins, etc... they have the skills to step up and fill a void. YES, if S, S and S all stink one night we will have a hard time, but come on...

Their bench will shorten come January. The heels will go 8-9 deep and so will we.

I say we have the advantage as far as bench depth and strength, backcourt and that the frontcourt is basically even.

My friend, I would say that your glass that is half full must have a darker tint of blue than mine. I am a guy who calls it like I see it. The last few years we have been very successful in the first few months of the season until we get close to February and March. The reason? We get run down and we find out that our depth and size isn't up to par. So, look at our backcourt. We have great experience from 3 people. Dawkins is a freshmen and will be up and down all year, so if we do not have great consistency from S, S, S, we are going to struggle. Our frontcourt has two new additions from last years team and the one who is expected to be the best has a broken wrist. When he comes back will he be as tentative as Zeller was last year? As many unknowns as the holes have right now, we have nearly as many. The differences are our team has faired better with the cupcakes that we have played and the nucleus of our 08-09 team is back. I just do not want to be overconfident. Confidence is fine, but this early in the season, we are playing as well as we can and the holes are not. From that perspective, they have a lot more room to improve than we do.

Lets have this conversation at the beginning of February, the details will be more fleshed out at that time.

[davekay1971]

Despite Carolina beating OSU, I was underwhelmed by the holes last night. It's always hard to tell if a team is struggling because they're up against a great defense, or because they're just having a bad night. I don't want to dismiss the possibility that Carolina's defense was disrupting OSU, but I had the feeling that it was more a case of OSU shooting themselves in the foot.

I've watched Carolina play complete games twice this year: OSU and Valpo.

My impressions:
The falloff from Lawson to Drew II is remarkable. Drew shows potential, and may develop into a very good PG this year, but he won't be someone who terrifies you or slices up your defense.

Carolina's backcourt will struggle to score at times. Not that they can't do it, but you're not exactly going to be trying to cover Lawson, Ellington, and Green at the arc this year.

Carolina has a TON of talent down low. I'm going to learn to hate Tyler Zeller as much as I hated Hansbrough. Davis is a stud already, and it's only November of his sophomore year. Being that he's a hole, I'd love for him to go pro, like, now, but it would also be kind of fun watching him and Miles battle in the post for three seasons.

Haven't seen enough of some of their freshmen to form a strong opinion yet. The Wear twins look promising. I'll take our Plumlees over their Wears in Battle of The Brothers, though.

All in all, I share Bob's sentiment that we probably have an advantage, right now, over Carolina. Our experienced players (Smith, Scheyer, Singler) are better and more proven than theirs (Ginyard, Thompson). Developing young talent will be key for both teams this year, and the team that develops the young talent better will probably have an advantage in the rivalry.

[airowe]

That Buckeye team relied on one guy last night and they had a hurt Center, who from what little I know about tOSU, is one of their best players. Unless two of our big 3 are hurt, plus Miles, I say we have the upper hand in both games.

And yes, my glass is half full. Always is.

[sandinmyshoes]

I've said this before, but it would be interesting to go back to this point last season and read what people were observing and predicting.

Some people just seem to be always pessimistic. Other people always seem to be optimistic.

It's too early for me to get a feel for how we'll match up against UNC. I think it'll be interesting to see them against Syracuse tonight. I don't think Syracuse is as good as we are, but I think they probably match up against UNC even better than we do. They'll play the zone defense Coach K is incorporating into his defensive arsenal, and they'll do with players that can match UNC's front line in terms of length and speed (I give UNC a slight speed advantage over us in the frontcourt).

It think Syracuse wins this game by perhaps as much as ten points or so. But, if UNC wins by double figures, I'm going to be much more worried about our match up with them.

I'm especially worried that UNC might be developing some three point shooters. Graves has shown flashes, Ginyard is much improved. Drew has also improved (it would have been impossible not to have given his percentages last year). I also keep remembering that Drew won the 3 point contest at the McDonalds AA game.

Thing is, though, that unlike Green, Ellington and to some extent Lawson, UNC's current batch of shooters rely on something more like a spot up shot. Green and Ellington were much better shooters coming off screen than this current lot.

It'll be intersting to watch UNC try to feed the ball through all those long arms in the Syracuse zone, or try to find places to spot up on the perimeter against the quick to react Syracuse zone.

[Kedsy]

I've said this before, but it would be interesting to go back to this point last season and read what people were observing and predicting.

My recollection is last year people were saying we have a chance to play with them head to head. Said or unsaid, I don't think anybody thought we were better.

This year, the talk seems to be we should beat them but they might be as good as we are. It's all dark-blue tinted, of course, but there's a major difference in the tone of the chatter.

[shoutingncu]

...Confidence is fine, but this early in the season, we are playing as well as we can and the holes are not. From that perspective, they have a lot more room to improve than we do.

I certainly think you're half right, and I definitely hope that Duke doesn't improve any, but doubt that will be the case.

I said in another thread that I think right now it's a matter of focus. Most of your team has played together for two years or more, so the learning curve is lessened. Carolina should be good, if not very good, once they start playing forty minutes. That seems a recurring theme the last few years (though the ceiling this year is probably a bit lower).

I still have confidence that Carolina can beat Duke, and so I call a split. But I think that they need to lose first, and the focus and execution will come in the rematch.

[Acymetric]

That Buckeye team relied on one guy last night and they had a hurt Center, who from what little I know about tOSU, is one of their best players. Unless two of our big 3 are hurt, plus Miles, I say we have the upper hand in both games.

And yes, my glass is half full. Always is.

Do we really have to put the t in front of OSU? I actually like OSU, but their emphasis on saying the is obnoxious at best. Was someone confusing them with some other Ohio State University or something?

[airowe]

That's why it's lowercase. Kind of a joke, but I'll leave it out...

[CDu]

If we played the heels right now, I think we'd beat them comfortably. Our perimeter play is just much better right now (probably will remain much better throughout the season). I think we have enough size inside to keep their bigs from completely dominating the glass. And our defense should be enough to keep them from getting easy baskets.

Unfortunately, we don't play them for another several months. And in that time, there is the potential for Henson, Strickland, and Drew to get much better and for Davis to get more comfortable as a full-time force rather than a ~15 minute guy last year.

The question will be whether UNC's bigs can dominate our bigs and whether UNC's perimeter players can do enough to avoid turnovers and create opportunities for their bigs.

If I had to guess, I'd take us in both games this year. I just don't think UNC matches up this year, unless their guards/wings really step it up. Could happen, but right now I'd guess not. Of course, the first matchup is nearly 3 months away, so it doesn't really matter. In that time, either team could get substantially better (or not).

[NSDukeFan]

... your glass that is half full must have a darker tint of blue than mine. I am a guy who calls it like I see it. The last few years we have been very successful in the first few months of the season until we get close to February and March. The reason? We get run down and we find out that our depth and size isn't up to par. ... so if we do not have great consistency from S, S, S, we are going to struggle.
Did you happen to catch the ACC tournament last year. Too bad, it was a great tournament. Also, check out Jon Scheyer's record as a PG last year and when that occurred. If you also review last year (I feel we have better scorers in our frontcourt this year) we did not need all three of our big 3 to have great games to succeed last year. We only struggled if 2 or all 3 struggled and nobody else stepped up. I see no reason for this more experienced group to be less consistent than last year's big 3 and expect to have more scoring from others.

the one who is expected to be the best has a broken wrist. When he comes back will he be as tentative as Zeller was last year?
I don't think the worst case scenario has Mason losing nearly as much time to injury as Zeller did last year, so I expect the impact on his season to not be as much.

As many unknowns as the holes have right now, we have nearly as many. The differences are our team has faired better with the cupcakes that we have played and the nucleus of our 08-09 team is back. I just do not want to be overconfident. Confidence is fine, but this early in the season, we are playing as well as we can and the holes are not. From that perspective, they have a lot more room to improve than we do.
I agree the Holes have lots of potential, but would you be more concerned if we were playing as poorly as they have been instead of playing extremely well against some weaker opponents? Just because we are playing better than them doesn't mean we can't also improve. I would also recommend a little confidence and excitement. It makes the season a lot more fun.



And yes, my glass is half full. Always is.
Agree completely.



Some people just seem to be always pessimistic. Other people always seem to be optimistic.
Count me in the optimistic category, though I certainly recognized last year that UNC had more talent than us last year. Until the games were played, however, I certainly did not concede any games to them head to head.

I'm especially worried that UNC might be developing some three point shooters. Graves has shown flashes, Ginyard is much improved. Drew has also improved (it would have been impossible not to have given his percentages last year).
This is also an area that I am watching closely. If they can shoot even a reasonable percentage, it makes them a lot more dangerous.

[eightyearoldsdude]

There is a whole lot of basketball to be played before February 10, 2010. I'm focused on our non-conference foes between now and the start of the ACC season. We have two big games in NYC next week, the ACC-Big Ten Challenge game against Wisconsin, and a return trip to MSG to face Gonzaga on December 19th. Those games represent opportunities for the team to improve on court execution and an opportunity for the youngsters to continue to adjust to the college game. Our first ACC game, on January 3, 2010 is against a very talented Clemson team.

But I guess it is never too early to talk about UNC (who will be improving and adjusting as well).

1.) Our backcourt is much better than Carolina's backcourt. I'm not sure how Carolina deals with our talented and experienced trio. By February I expect Andre Dawkins to be much better than he is in November and he is pretty darn impressive right now.
2.) Carolina's frontcourt is more experienced than our frontcourt and Deon Thompson is a very good player. However, early indications are our frontcourt play is solid with Miles Plumlee having the potential to develop into a beast.
3.) Our bench is more talented than Carolina's bench especially once Mason Plumlee is healthy.

Advantage Duke. I expect we will sweep the Heels this year. Personally, I hope we beat them four times!

Wow. Were you one of the guys who predicted a title for Duke last year? I know UNC doesn't look great right now, but I'm underwhelmed by both teams. And frankly, it's OK if we don't win the November National Championship, since it does not exist. I would expect significant improvement from UNC over the next few months, especially for Drew, Strick, and Henson. I also think Kelly and Mason will make Duke better in february than you are now.

The preseason weaknesses for UNC were supposed to be point guard play and outside shooting. Drew is pretty good (8 assists to 4 turnovers against a very tall backcourt for OSU), and I think he'll get better. Strick is a work in progress, but he can't help but improve. Our outside shooting is probably not going to be fantastic, but it looks good enough (7 for 15 last night) to keep teams honest. We are winning while not relying on our star freshmen at all, so when they come along we should be pretty good.

On your side, Scheyer doesn't look entirely comfortable running the point, but he's doing a solid job. Dawkins looks great--much better than the kid who transferred to memphis. Singler is going to get his buckets, and Miles looks pretty good when he's facing the basket. Nolan looked good against crappy competition, so I'll reserve judgment until you play a better team. But he is a good defender and looks like he might be finishing better this year. Not too scared of his jumpshot yet though.

I think UNC has a pretty substantial depth advantage, considering we had 9 or 10 guys scoring in the first half. I'd give Duke a big advantage with Singler, and I'd give UNC a post advantage. I think your backcourt will score more than ours, but I think Drew's assist numbers will compare favorably to Scheyer's by the end of the season. And if I was a Duke fan, I'd worry a bit about backcourt depth.

Foul trouble and injuries happen, so this conversation could be really different come February, but right now I expect a split, with two close games. I will say that Singler alone makes Duke's chances of sweeping UNC look better than UNC's chances of sweeping Duke.

[Kedsy]

Carolina is a good team and will end up being a good team -- they've been a good team something like 42 of the last 43 years. But there's good and then there's good. Last year they were good, but there nowhere near that this year.

In fact, this year reminds me a little of 1998-99. UNC was coming off two straight Final Fours (and 3 of the last 4). They'd lost 3 starters and their 6th man, but they returned Ed Cota, who had set the all-time ACC single-season assist record the year before, future NBA starting center Brendan Haywood, and future European pro Ademola Okulaja. They brought it a top flight recruiting class featuring the #6 (Ron Curry), #9 (Jason Capel), and #22 (Kris Lang) incoming freshman in the country. They had future NBA big man Scott Williams on the bench.

The team began the year ranked #11 and ended it ranked #13. They had four double-figure scorers (Cota, Haywood, Lang, and Okulaja) and two more guys who were pretty close to double-figures (Capel and Max Owens). They reached the ACC title game, although they didn't win, and earned a #3 seed in the West Region of the NCAAs, drawing Weber State in their opening tournament game.

Well, we all know what happened then. Most of us probably also remember UNC lost three times to Duke that year.

My point isn't to say that UNC is going down in the first round or that we'll sweep them. My point is that Carolina team was pretty good but not amazing, and when you're a team like that, anything can happen.

Obviously, the same could be said about Duke, but I have a feeling we're somewhat better than that this year. Only time will tell, of course.

[eightyearoldsdude]

Carolina is a good team and will end up being a good team -- they've been a good team something like 42 of the last 43 years. But there's good and then there's good. Last year they were good, but there nowhere near that this year.

In fact, this year reminds me a little of 1998-99. UNC was coming off two straight Final Fours (and 3 of the last 4). They'd lost 3 starters and their 6th man, but they returned Ed Cota, who had set the all-time ACC single-season assist record the year before, future NBA starting center Brendan Haywood, and future European pro Ademola Okulaja. They brought it a top flight recruiting class featuring the #6 (Ron Curry), #9 (Jason Capel), and #22 (Kris Lang) incoming freshman in the country. They had future NBA big man Scott Williams on the bench.

The team began the year ranked #11 and ended it ranked #13. They had four double-figure scorers (Cota, Haywood, Lang, and Okulaja) and two more guys who were pretty close to double-figures (Capel and Max Owens). They reached the ACC title game, although they didn't win, and earned a #3 seed in the West Region of the NCAAs, drawing Weber State in their opening tournament game.

Well, we all know what happened then. Most of us probably also remember UNC lost three times to Duke that year.

My point isn't to say that UNC is going down in the first round or that we'll sweep them. My point is that Carolina team was pretty good but not amazing, and when you're a team like that, anything can happen.

Obviously, the same could be said about Duke, but I have a feeling we're somewhat better than that this year. Only time will tell, of course.

Future NBA big man Scott Williams? I think you're confusing Roy's son Scott (a walk-on point guard) with the 6'10 guy who played four years at UNC and then signed with the Bulls in 1990.

Either way, this UNC team has way more NBA talent on it than the 99 team. Henson and Davis are sure-fire NBA players. I would be pretty surprised if Zeller wasn't a first-round pick after four years, and I would bet that Deon is drafted in the second round this year and makes the regular roster. Strickland has the tools to make it eventually, if he can make better decisions with the ball.

I expect this team to lose some games they shouldn't, due to inexperience and poor FT shooting, but I think the ACC regular season will come down the wire for us and y'all.

[Kedsy]

Future NBA big man Scott Williams? I think you're confusing Roy's son Scott (a walk-on point guard) with the 6'10 guy who played four years at UNC and then signed with the Bulls in 1990.

You're absolutely right, that's exactly what I was doing. My bad. Sorry. That's somewhat embarrassing.

I also agree this UNC team has more talent than that one did, but probably not as much more as you think. Is this year's Zeller better than that year's Okulaja? I don't think so. Will this year's Henson outperform that year's Lang? I'd be surprised. And Haywood was better than Thompson. I don't know who to compare Ginyard to, and I doubt the Wears will get enough minutes to make a difference.

Strickland and McDonald may have been high profile recruits, but so were Curry and Capel. My guess is Capel's 1998-99 production will exceed Strickland's 2009-10 production and that McDonald will do about the same as Curry did. Graves and Owens? Similar. But Cota was approximatley three zillion times better than I perceive Drew to be. So what you have is Ginyard and Ed Davis (for whom that team really didn't have a comparable player) against the advantages the 98-99 team had at center and PG.

Anyway, my point wasn't to say UNC is better or worse than they were then. It was to say that unless you're a dominant team, anything can happen, and I don't think this year's Carolina team is dominant.

[jesus_hurley]

Wow. Were you one of the guys who predicted a title for Duke last year? I know UNC doesn't look great right now, but I'm underwhelmed by both teams. And frankly, it's OK if we don't win the November National Championship, since it does not exist. I would expect significant improvement from UNC over the next few months, especially for Drew, Strick, and Henson. I also think Kelly and Mason will make Duke better in february than you are now.

The preseason weaknesses for UNC were supposed to be point guard play and outside shooting. Drew is pretty good (8 assists to 4 turnovers against a very tall backcourt for OSU), and I think he'll get better. Strick is a work in progress, but he can't help but improve. Our outside shooting is probably not going to be fantastic, but it looks good enough (7 for 15 last night) to keep teams honest. We are winning while not relying on our star freshmen at all, so when they come along we should be pretty good.

On your side, Scheyer doesn't look entirely comfortable running the point, but he's doing a solid job. Dawkins looks great--much better than the kid who transferred to memphis. Singler is going to get his buckets, and Miles looks pretty good when he's facing the basket. Nolan looked good against crappy competition, so I'll reserve judgment until you play a better team. But he is a good defender and looks like he might be finishing better this year. Not too scared of his jumpshot yet though.

I think UNC has a pretty substantial depth advantage, considering we had 9 or 10 guys scoring in the first half. I'd give Duke a big advantage with Singler, and I'd give UNC a post advantage. I think your backcourt will score more than ours, but I think Drew's assist numbers will compare favorably to Scheyer's by the end of the season. And if I was a Duke fan, I'd worry a bit about backcourt depth.

Foul trouble and injuries happen, so this conversation could be really different come February, but right now I expect a split, with two close games. I will say that Singler alone makes Duke's chances of sweeping UNC look better than UNC's chances of sweeping Duke.

Just out of curiosity, where has Leslie McDonald been? I haven't really seen him at all this year.

And you know Ol' Roy would be telling everyone in the media if he was hurt :D

[eightyearoldsdude]

You're absolutely right, that's exactly what I was doing. My bad. Sorry. That's somewhat embarrassing.

I also agree this UNC team has more talent than that one did, but probably not as much more as you think. Is this year's Zeller better than that year's Okulaja? I don't think so. Will this year's Henson outperform that year's Lang? I'd be surprised. And Haywood was better than Thompson.

Strickland and McDonald may have been high profile recruits, but so were Curry and Capel. My guess is Capel's 1998-99 production will exceed Strickland's 2009-10 production and that McDonald will do about the same as Curry did. Graves and Owens? Similar. But Cota was approximatley three zillion times better than I perceive Drew to be. So what you have is Ed Davis (for whom that team really didn't have a comparable player) against the advantages the 98-99 team had at center and PG.

Anyway, my point wasn't to say UNC is better or worse than they were then. It was to say that unless you're a dominant team, anything can happen, and I don't think this year's Carolina team is dominant.

I agree with your fundamental point, that anything could happen with this less-than-dominant team (again, especially because we are inexperienced in the backcourt and a poor free-throw shooting team). So my quibbles are with the details--I think Zeller will be as good for this team as Okulaja was, Graves is much, much better than Owens, and that Drew will ultimately be better than Cota (primarily because of his superior defense--I love me some Easy-Ed, but he didn't play defense and wasn't a shooter...he could throw the alley oop like nobody else, however). Haywood was not a dominant player until his senior year, and even then he had issues finishing (remember "Brenda?"). Capel did have good some production, but he could not create his own shot. Lang was very limited, and had injury issues.

We know that team had exactly one NBA player (who was hardly dominant in college). We know this team has 3 near-certain NBA players, plus 2 more that are realistic possibilities. So I think you are comparing experienced NBDL apples to inexperienced NBA oranges. Both will produce uneven results, but for different reasons.

[Bob Green]

Wow. Were you one of the guys who predicted a title for Duke last year?

No I didn't predict Duke would win the National title last year, but I admit I am an optimist.


I know UNC doesn't look great right now...I would expect significant improvement from UNC over the next few months...

I agree, which is why I said in my post Carolina will be improving and adjusting.


I think UNC has a pretty substantial depth advantage, considering we had 9 or 10 guys scoring in the first half... And if I was a Duke fan, I'd worry a bit about backcourt depth.

I completely disagree with you here. Zeller is the only experience Carolina has coming off the bench. The rest of your bench is unproven freshmen who haven't looked very good so far. Duke has senior Zoubek and senior Thomas (once Mason Plumlee is healthy) who understand their roles and have proven to be effective in big games. Zoubek against Alabi in the ACC Tournament last year is a great example. Then we have freshmen Dawkins and Kelly who have looked pretty good early. Time will tell but I do not believe I'm crawling out onto a limb when I state Andre Dawkins is and will continue to be a better guard than all the guards currently on Carolina's roster.


Foul trouble and injuries happen, so this conversation could be really different come February.

I agree with you again which is why I started my post by saying there is a lot of basketball to be played before February 10, 2010.

[Kedsy]

We know that team had exactly one NBA player (who was hardly dominant in college). We know this team has 3 near-certain NBA players, plus 2 more that are realistic possibilities. So I think you are comparing experienced NBDL apples to inexperienced NBA oranges. Both will produce uneven results, but for different reasons.

Well, you're probably right about this. The only comment I would make is Curry was the #6 recruit in the country and Capel was #10. My guess is at the time people thought they'd end up in the League, just like you're saying about Henson and Strickland. Not saying you're not right this time, just sayin'.

[eightyearoldsdude]

Well, you're probably right about this. The only comment I would make is Curry was the #6 recruit in the country and Capel was #10. My guess is at the time people thought they'd end up in the League, just like you're saying about Henson and Strickland. Not saying you're not right this time, just sayin'.

Yeah, I think curry was a hard one to gauge, given the two sport issue. His is mostly a story of divided focus and injury--he could have been pretty good had he stuck to hoops. I certainly didn't follow recruiting back then, but I would imagine scouts saw in Capel a mobile and versatile forward who could shoot from distance. He probably abused HS kids with his size or shooting, but it should have been pretty clear that he lacked the quickness or athleticism required for dominance at the college or pro level.

to the other guy, regarding bench depth: I would agree that dawkins *could* turn out better than any of our current guards, but I'm not sure it will happen this year. As for the rest of your depth, I would love it if K gave a lot of minutes to Zoubek and Thomas. Just as I'm sure you would love it if Roy gave the wears lots of PT. We'll find out.

[Bob Green]

to the other guy, regarding bench depth: I would agree that dawkins *could* turn out better than any of our current guards, but I'm not sure it will happen this year. As for the rest of your depth, I would love it if K gave a lot of minutes to Zoubek and Thomas. Just as I'm sure you would love it if Roy gave the wears lots of PT. We'll find out.

You are seriously underestimating the impact Zoubek and Thomas can have on games. As far as Coach Krzyzewski giving them "a lot of minutes," both players are role players who understand their role.

For Thomas, he is currently a starter as a versatile defensive specialist as he is a guy who can guard on the perimeter and bang with the big boys. Thomas may move to the bench as the season progresses, but he will play starters minutes all season. The question Thomas needs to answer is can he knock down the 15 foot jumpshot.

Zoubek is an experienced player that provides Coach Krzyzewski options. He will play 18 minutes in some games and only 6 to 8 in others. It all depends on matchups.

Deon Thompson is a very good player (I've been big on DT for several years) who will have a breakout year for Carolina. Ed Davis is solid. After those two, Carolina doesn't have anyone who is better than seniors Thomas and Zoubek. Zeller and Henson certainly may develop into much better players than Zoubek and Thomas but they are not better right now.

[CDu]

Deon Thompson is a very good player (I've been big on DT for several years) who will have a breakout year for Carolina. Ed Davis is solid. After those two, Carolina doesn't have anyone who is better than seniors Thomas and Zoubek. Zeller and Henson certainly may develop into much better players than Zoubek and Thomas but they are not better right now.

I assume you're referring only to the frontcourt. If not, I'd take Ginyard and maybe Drew ahead of those two. But in the frontcourt, the only one I might quibble with is Zeller. I would put him ahead of Zoubs right now. Zeller is more fluid, a much better shooter, and can be an impact player in transition. The only edge I'd give to Zoubek in that comparison is that Zoubek is a better banger and rebounder than Zeller, who I think is more of a finesse player. But overall I'd rank Zeller ahead of Zoubek.

[Bob Green]

I assume you're referring only to the frontcourt...But in the frontcourt, the only one I might quibble with is Zeller. I would put him ahead of Zoubs right now.

Yes, I was referring to frontcourt players. You might have a point in regard to Zeller but I'm not certain. In my opinion, Zoubek is going to benefit greatly from Duke's return to a motion offense and the high-low game. He will be much better as a senior than he was the last three years. Zoubek wasn't suited to Duke's drive and dish offense. I expect he is going to benefit greatly from being on the court alongside another big man such as Miles Plumlee. We will have to wait and see but it isn't going to suprise me if Zoubek puts up some great rebounding numbers this season and scores more points than expected. If he can use that hook shot come January, he could be dangerous, but I expect he will be scoring his points on putbacks and via the high-low pass.

[CDu]

Yes, I was referring to frontcourt players. You might have a point in regard to Zeller but I'm not certain. In my opinion, Zoubek is going to benefit greatly from Duke's return to a motion offense and the high-low game. He will be much better as a senior than he was the last three years. Zoubek wasn't suited to Duke's drive and dish offense. I expect he is going to benefit greatly from being on the court alongside another big man such as Miles Plumlee. We will have to wait and see but it isn't going to suprise me if Zoubek puts up some great rebounding numbers this season and scores more points than expected. If he can use that hook shot come January, he could be dangerous, but I expect he will be scoring his points on putbacks and via the high-low pass.

I certainly hope so. We'll see what Zoubs can do against better comp. I fear that he'll remain just a matchup play. I just think that, with his shooting touch and athleticism, Zeller is useful against more teams than Zoubek will be (unless you need a physical presence to pound the boards, which I don't think Zeller will provide now or later). But I certainly hope I'm wrong.

[eightyearoldsdude]

Well, I'm a guest here so I'll just say that the good news is that we'll find out who is right, and to be clear, I expect that UNC's bench stats will exceed Duke's in both games and that Zeller specifically will outproduce Zoubek.

[jesus_hurley]

I certainly hope so. We'll see what Zoubs can do against better comp. I fear that he'll remain just a matchup play. I just think that, with his shooting touch and athleticism, Zeller is useful against more teams than Zoubek will be (unless you need a physical presence to pound the boards, which I don't think Zeller will provide now or later). But I certainly hope I'm wrong.

The game tonight would have been a perfect Zoubek situation. Syracuse's Onuaku was a large physical player who was able to out muscle the UNC-CH bigs. I think one of the issues with their big men is they are all the same type of player - athletic, but not as willing to bang down low.

[CDu]

Well, I'm a guest here so I'll just say that the good news is that we'll find out who is right, and to be clear, I expect that UNC's bench stats will exceed Duke's in both games and that Zeller specifically will outproduce Zoubek.

I think you're confusing "right now" with "three months from now." I'd say that right now, we have the edge. In three months, who knows? So no, we won't find out who is right. We'll find out the answer to a different question.

If we played right now, I think we'd sweep easily. But a lot can happen in roughly three months, in either direction.

Also, of course UNC's bench stats are likely to exceed Duke's bench stats. Williams is going to give more minutes to his bench regardless of quality because (1) his starting five is likely to be inferior to Duke's starting five and (2) he always uses more players than Coach K. Counting bench stats is not a good measure of the more quality bench - it's just a measure of which bench is used more.

[Heelkiller1]

Watching the first few games of the year (for both teams) ,I think our defense will be too much for the holes..BUT my confidence will rise once I see Duke play some ranked teams.

[Ultrarunner]

Well, I'm a guest here so I'll just say that the good news is that we'll find out who is right, and to be clear, I expect that UNC's bench stats will exceed Duke's in both games and that Zeller specifically will outproduce Zoubek.

Zeller that just managed to get 1 rebound and 3 PF's in 16 minutes? Zoubs may not match him in points but will hold his own in the other aspects of the game.