The rivalry...

[SupaDave]

It seems that a few of the folks on the board can't get past the last few years of the rivalry of Duke vs. Carolina. What many of you need to know is that this has been going on for years. There are even a few folks who say that Dean retired b/c he couldn't keep up with K anymore (you don't hear that much anymore however).

This rivalry takes many twists and turns but it shall always have three things - talent, respect, and hatred.

Please update and educate yourselves b/c the good times shall continue to roll.

See the big names. See the big losses. See the injuries. See the link - please - for some perspective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina%E2%80%93Duke_rivalry

[feldspar]

Good post.

Every rivalry has its ups and downs. Michigan is in the middle of a nasty downturn in their football rivalry with Ohio State.

This too shall pass. Yes, Carolina has owned us lately. They have owned us in recruiting, in head-to-head and in hardware. It's a hard pill to swallow.

But we'll get back there. Heck, this might even be the year when we sweep Kerlina for the first time since 2004! And soon, maybe not this season or the next, we'll be reliving those days when Jason Evans is pining for Carolina to be a quality team again so the rivalry will feel a little more competitive.

[JG Nothing]

It seems that a few of the folks on the board can't get past the last few years of the rivalry of Duke vs. Carolina. What many of you need to know is that this has been going on for years. There are even a few folks who say that Dean retired b/c he couldn't keep up with K anymore (you don't hear that much anymore however).

This rivalry takes many twists and turns but it shall always have three things - talent, respect, and hatred.

Please update and educate yourselves b/c the good times shall continue to roll.

See the big names. See the big losses. See the injuries. See the link - please - for some perspective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina%E2%80%93Duke_rivalry

I certainly expect Duke and Carolina to be elite college basketball programs in the foreseeable future because of the current coaching staffs. However, past performance does not guarantee future returns.

Yes, the balance of power between Duke and unc has cycled in more recent years, but that was due to particular events and situations, not some metaphysical inevitability of the Duke/carolina rivalry.

[Carolina_Blue]

completely agree...I remember the later Dean Smith years....where I was feeling much of how I imagine yall are feeling now...this rivalry is too competitive to be one sided for too long...and as much as I hate and wish I know Duke will be back .... I mean even when Carolina clearly had edge in talent the past few years the games were always coming down to the final minutes....with Duke even winning some games they probably shouldn't have if you just isolated talent....that is why this is the greatest rivalry in all of sports not just the south but in all of sports!...hold on Dukies you will be back....whether I like it or not...trust me Ive been through worse times than you are experiencing right now....i.e. Matt Doherty

[Kedsy]

Yes, the balance of power between Duke and unc has cycled in more recent years, but that was due to particular events and situations, not some metaphysical inevitability of the Duke/carolina rivalry.

It has always cycled, since the beginning of time*. That's SupaDave's point.



* -- at least since the 1950s; I don't really know much of the history before that...

[hurleyfor3]

It has always cycled, since the beginning of time*. That's SupaDave's point.



* -- at least since the 1950s; I don't really know much of the history before that...

Well, there's also the issue of Planck time. If quantum physics is correct we'll never know what happened in the first 10^-43 second after the universe began. [/dork]

[shoutingncu]

completely agree...I remember the later Dean Smith years....where I was feeling much of how I imagine yall are feeling now...this rivalry is too competitive to be one sided for too long...and as much as I hate and wish I know Duke will be back .... I mean even when Carolina clearly had edge in talent the past few years the games were always coming down to the final minutes....with Duke even winning some games they probably shouldn't have if you just isolated talent....that is why this is the greatest rivalry in all of sports not just the south but in all of sports!...hold on Dukies you will be back....whether I like it or not...trust me Ive been through worse times than you are experiencing right now....i.e. Matt Doherty

I'm a little curious as to which later Dean years you're referring to. Was it the '97 Final Four or the '95 Final Four?

Al Featherston had a series of articles posted here last year that were a fantastic comparison:
http://www.accsports.com/articles/200812074255/dean-and-k-legendary-parallels--part-1--.php

Unfortunately, you have to be a subscriber to read them now, but he compared how long it took both Dean and K to get things started, and then spoke of critics claiming that the game had passed Smith by before 1993. It sounds a little familiar now. And Duke certainly had it's own Doherty-esque worse times. A coaching change can do that to a team.

What's great about this rivalry is its longevity. Once Carolina surpassed N.C. State as the premiere program in the ACC, no team could sustain a challenge. Of course there were down years or down stretches, and other teams had their moments (David Thompson, Ralph Sampson), but no other team could stay at, or near, the top spot for as long as Carolina has... except Duke. The hatred comes from many factors, but the rivalry comes from both programs' sustained excellence and the ability of both to bounce back from adversity.

From a purely objective (;)) view, I am very curious to see what happens when Coach K retires... to see if Duke "bounces back" from the adversity of losing a Hall of Fame coach, or to see if the wins and the greatness were just a trend. A thirty (forty?) year trend, but a trend, none-the-less. :)

[whereinthehellami]

I'm a little curious as to which later Dean years you're referring to. Was it the '97 Final Four or the '95 Final Four?

Al Featherston had a series of articles posted here last year that were a fantastic comparison:
http://www.accsports.com/articles/200812074255/dean-and-k-legendary-parallels--part-1--.php

Unfortunately, you have to be a subscriber to read them now, but he compared how long it took both Dean and K to get things started, and then spoke of critics claiming that the game had passed Smith by before 1993. It sounds a little familiar now. And Duke certainly had it's own Doherty-esque worse times. A coaching change can do that to a team.

What's great about this rivalry is its longevity. Once Carolina surpassed N.C. State as the premiere program in the ACC, no team could sustain a challenge. Of course there were down years or down stretches, and other teams had their moments (David Thompson, Ralph Sampson), but no other team could stay at, or near, the top spot for as long as Carolina has... except Duke. The hatred comes from many factors, but the rivalry comes from both programs' sustained excellence and the ability of both to bounce back from adversity.

From a purely objective (;)) view, I am very curious to see what happens when Coach K retires... to see if Duke "bounces back" from the adversity of losing a Hall of Fame coach, or to see if the wins and the greatness were just a trend. A thirty (forty?) year trend, but a trend, none-the-less. :)

You are a smug little hole aren't you. You got that in common with dean.

[SupaDave]

From a purely objective (;)) view, I am very curious to see what happens when Coach K retires... to see if Duke "bounces back" from the adversity of losing a Hall of Fame coach, or to see if the wins and the greatness were just a trend. A thirty (forty?) year trend, but a trend, none-the-less. :)

The good thing about this comment is that Duke's coaching tree will be far more experienced than UNC's was when Dean stepped down.

Many don't remember but ONE of the reasons he stepped down was to give his homeboy Guthridge a shot at the full-time gig.

Dean stepped down right before the 1997-1998 season and his last few teams had been far from dominant. Add in Tim Duncan and a Wake Forest team Dean couldn't handle and a Duke team with a young coach breathing down his neck - Old Dean was feeling the pressure.

Guthridge doesn't (or didn't) do much recruiting b/c of the way things happened and hence the tide turned - quickly. Since 1997 only one other team not named Duke or UNC has won the ACC...

[weezie]

Ive been through worse times than you are experiencing right now....i.e. Matt Doherty

Ahhhh...........the good old days.......

[Duvall]

Many don't remember but ONE of the reasons he stepped down was to give his homeboy Guthridge a shot at the full-time gig.

Dean stepped down right before the 1997-1998 season and his last few teams had been far from dominant.

Wait, what?

Dean's last few teams were plenty dominant, with three Final Fours and one national championship in his last five years.

[Channing]

this seems like an appropriate place to share this website someone shared with me:

www.dukerejects.com

[SupaDave]

Wait, what?

Dean's last few teams were plenty dominant, with three Final Fours and one national championship in his last five years.

Dominant and successful are two different things. I know you like to argue - but geez! One of those years UNC had double digit losses and it was on the back end - not the front. As a matter of fact there are some that would argue that UNC was consistently given easy passes to the Final Four in Dean's years - playing regional cupcakes well into the sweet 16 (Duke has dealt with the same criticism ironically).

[jesus_hurley]

The good thing about this comment is that Duke's coaching tree will be far more experienced than UNC's was when Dean stepped down.

Many don't remember but ONE of the reasons he stepped down was to give his homeboy Guthridge a shot at the full-time gig.

Dean stepped down right before the 1997-1998 season and his last few teams had been far from dominant. Add in Tim Duncan and a Wake Forest team Dean couldn't handle and a Duke team with a young coach breathing down his neck - Old Dean was feeling the pressure.

Guthridge doesn't (or didn't) do much recruiting b/c of the way things happened and hence the tide turned - quickly. Since 1997 only one other team not named Duke or UNC has won the ACC...

And stepped down at the right time (early October) so UNC-CH really didn't have any other choice then to let Gut take over...

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Here's my take on the rivalry in one word..... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJm-UorQu0&feature=player_embedded)

[oldnavy]

Here's my take on the rivalry in one word..... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJm-UorQu0&feature=player_embedded)

OK, that is the funniest thing I have seen in a long time... WOW!

[oldnavy]

From a purely objective (;)) view, I am very curious to see what happens when Coach K retires... to see if Duke "bounces back" from the adversity of losing a Hall of Fame coach, or to see if the wins and the greatness were just a trend. A thirty (forty?) year trend, but a trend, none-the-less. :)

Thirty or 40 years is not a trend. See this is exactly the type of arrogant, condescending crude that makes me loathe tar holes. You want to discuss the rivalry based on the past 5 year success of Roy Williams, but K's 30-40 years is a “trend”... unbelievable!

[shoutingncu]

Thirty or 40 years is not a trend. See this is exactly the type of arrogant, condescending crude that makes me loathe tar holes. You want to discuss the rivalry based on the past 5 year success of Roy Williams, but K's 30-40 years is a “trend”... unbelievable!

I apologize. I guess it was the "trend, none-the-less" part of my original post that, upon re-reading, sounds like I believed what I was typing. Of course it's a ridiculous notion, and I had hoped that it was so ridiculous that my intent was obvious. Duke was "trending" toward greatness before Coach K... maybe not immediately before him, but certainly on the whole. So I do, honestly and sincerely, apologize for mis-representing my beliefs.

I was merely looking forward to (from an objective basketball fan point-of-view, of course ;)) seeing what happens when Coach Krzyzewski steps down. Much like I am interested to see how Carolina handles things when Ol' Roy does the same.

Now, on the 5 year success part, I do take issue, but that's for another post.

[oldnavy]

I apologize. I guess it was the "trend, none-the-less" part of my original post that, upon re-reading, sounds like I believed what I was typing. Of course it's a ridiculous notion, and I had hoped that it was so ridiculous that my intent was obvious. Duke was "trending" toward greatness before Coach K... maybe not immediately before him, but certainly on the whole. So I do, honestly and sincerely, apologize for mis-representing my beliefs.

I was merely looking forward to (from an objective basketball fan point-of-view, of course ;)) seeing what happens when Coach Krzyzewski steps down. Much like I am interested to see how Carolina handles things when Ol' Roy does the same.

Now, on the 5 year success part, I do take issue, but that's for another post.

Apology accepted.

I have thought about the same question. What will happen when K retires? It is a scary thing for me to think about, but it will happen eventually. I expect that he will have a plan in place long before he steps down. Make no mistake, I believe that K will hand select his successor, much like Dean did.
Who that may be is a good question. A lot will depend on how the "family coaching tree" does, but if I had to guess I would say JD is the prime candidate.

I have spoken with a number of UNC fans that were very upset with the way UNC handled Dean's or rather Gutridge's retirement. More than a few true Heel fans were upset with how Matt was handled, and the lack of support given him. That is a huge topic and one I do not know very much about, so that is all I will say about that.

I will say that right now if both Roy and K left, I would say Duke has the advantage as far as the respective coaching tree's go, who does UNC have out there (in the family) that would be considered?

[Duke4life92]

completely agree...I remember the later Dean Smith years....where I was feeling much of how I imagine yall are feeling now...this rivalry is too competitive to be one sided for too long...and as much as I hate and wish I know Duke will be back .... I mean even when Carolina clearly had edge in talent the past few years the games were always coming down to the final minutes....with Duke even winning some games they probably shouldn't have if you just isolated talent....that is why this is the greatest rivalry in all of sports not just the south but in all of sports!...hold on Dukies you will be back....whether I like it or not...trust me Ive been through worse times than you are experiencing right now....i.e. Matt Doherty

Wow i did'nt know we where experiencing hard times now!!Why do tarhole fans seem to think it's all about them :rolleyes:

[Newton_14]

Wow i did'nt know we where experiencing hard times now!!Why do tarhole fans seem to think it's all about them :rolleyes:

Yeah, it is terrible to only go 30-7, win the ACC tournament (something the almighty heels could not get done) and make the Sweet 16. Absolutely putrid. I am not sure how K kept his job with a season like that.

And what's even worse, the only recruits we could bring in were 3 5-Star guys and some unrated kid who transferred in from Liberty of all places!!

Gloom and Doom no matter how you try to spin it.....

9F

[sweetchiba51]

Yeah, it is terrible to only go 30-7, win the ACC tournament (something the almighty heels could not get done) and make the Sweet 16. Absolutely putrid. I am not sure how K kept his job with a season like that.

And what's even worse, the only recruits we could bring in were 3 5-Star guys and some unrated kid who transferred in from Liberty of all places!!

Gloom and Doom no matter how you try to spin it.....

9F

I would trade all of those acc championships for the 2 national championships in the past 5 years any day....

[SupaDave]

I would trade all of those acc championships for the 2 national championships in the past 5 years any day....

Well keep watching... I've got a feeling that we are far from done.

[oldnavy]

Yeah, it is terrible to only go 30-7, win the ACC tournament (something the almighty heels could not get done) and make the Sweet 16. Absolutely putrid. I am not sure how K kept his job with a season like that.

And what's even worse, the only recruits we could bring in were 3 5-Star guys and some unrated kid who transferred in from Liberty of all places!!

Gloom and Doom no matter how you try to spin it.....

9F
I think that is the down side of having experienced sooo much success. We are not measured on the normal scale, we are measured on NC's and Final Four appearances. A five year hiatus from the final four IS noteworthy for our program (I'm OK wiht that btw), but I see good things on the horizon, really good things!

[flyingdutchdevil]

I think that is the down side of having experienced sooo much success. We are not measured on the normal scale, we are measured on NC's and Final Four appearances. A five year hiatus from the final four IS noteworthy for our program (I'm OK wiht that btw), but I see good things on the horizon, really good things!

Exactly! Let's face it - Duke fans are ridiculously spoiled with success in the last 20 years (with 1-2 years withstanding). Anytime we don't make it to the FF or win a NC, the season is considered sub-par. That is a downside of constant winner - when you lose, it's unexpected, painful, and gut-punching.

The 2007 season is a perfect example. At 22-11, Duke considered that season sub-par. The vast majority of programs would LOVE to have that record. But this isn't the majority of programs - this is Duke - an institution coached by one of the greatest coaches of any American sport who has had a plethora of success.

UNC is, unfortunately, the same way. They have just had more success in the last 5 years. However, that is bound to change. Duke and UNC, for the foreseeable future, will still own the ACC and constantly compete for NCs.

One interesting point that someone brought up is what happens when Coach K retires. IMO, that scares the hell out of me. IMO, I don't think Coach K has that strong of a coaching tree, and I would rather have someone other than Brey. Johnny D is too unproven. Capel is awesome and seems like the front-runner. But only 3 years at a BCS school isn't enough to justify him as a legitimate successor. It's going to be so interesting to see what happens. Just like what happens when Ole Roy retires (hopefully with only winning 2 NCs total!).

Anyway, here's to Duke having a great season. And UNC losing every game by 20 points (except when they play us. I want them to lose by 40 points!).

GO NOLAN!!!

[SupaDave]

One interesting point that someone brought up is what happens when Coach K retires. IMO, that scares the hell out of me. IMO, I don't think Coach K has that strong of a coaching tree, and I would rather have someone other than Brey. Johnny D is too unproven. Capel is awesome and seems like the front-runner. But only 3 years at a BCS school isn't enough to justify him as a legitimate successor. It's going to be so interesting to see what happens. Just like what happens when Ole Roy retires (hopefully with only winning 2 NCs total!).

Like I said earlier - Duke's coaching tree will be MUCH more experienced than UNC's was when Dean stepped down.

Tommy Amaker (Seton Hall, Michigan, Harvard)
Bob Bender (Washington)
Mike Brey (Notre Dame)
Jeff Capel III (VCU, Oklahoma)
Johnny Dawkins (Stanford)
David Henderson (Delaware)
Quin Snyder (Missouri, NBDL Austin Toros)

Four former players (Steve Wojciechowski, Chris Collins, Chris Carrawell,and Nate James) currently work under him as assistants at Duke.

AND I wouldn't be surprised to see individuals like Paulus and Jordan Davidson join the ranks...

[flyingdutchdevil]

Like I said earlier - Duke's coaching tree will be MUCH more experienced than UNC's was when Dean stepped down.

Tommy Amaker (Seton Hall, Michigan, Harvard)
Bob Bender (Washington)
Mike Brey (Notre Dame)
Jeff Capel III (VCU, Oklahoma)
Johnny Dawkins (Stanford)
David Henderson (Delaware)
Quin Snyder (Missouri, NBDL Austin Toros)

Four former players (Steve Wojciechowski, Chris Collins, Chris Carrawell,and Nate James) currently work under him as assistants at Duke.

AND I wouldn't be surprised to see individuals like Paulus and Jordan Davidson join the ranks...

Just cus it's experienced doesn't make it great, or even good for that matter. IMO, from that list, there are a fair amount of sub-par performers (Snyder, Amaker) and others who I don't believe would even be considered (Bender is an assistant coach with the Atlanta Hawks and didn't have a great record at Washington. Henderson was fired). Also, many are so unproven (the current Assistant Coaches, for that matter, J. Dawkins). I'm not arguing about UNC, the way Dean left the program, or their assistant coaches - I'm merely arguing that a lack of a true successor coming from Duke's tree is worrisome to me.

That said, K has a bunch of years left. When he retires, then we can argue the hell out of this topics. Until then....

GO NOLAN!!!

[Devilsfan]

Duke with all of its talent and its premier coaching staff should be an elite eight team every year, imo.

[SupaDave]

Duke with all of its talent and its premier coaching staff should be an elite eight team every year, imo.

Really? Did you notice that a school named Dayton is ranked this year? With all the talent other schools are getting you actually believe this? I'm just blown away by this statement.

As Jim Sumner has stated - ALL bets are off come tourney time. Talent and coaching can get you there but hunger gets you the win...

[SupaDave]

Just cus it's experienced doesn't make it great, or even good for that matter. IMO, from that list, there are a fair amount of sub-par performers (Snyder, Amaker) and others who I don't believe would even be considered (Bender is an assistant coach with the Atlanta Hawks and didn't have a great record at Washington. Henderson was fired). Also, many are so unproven (the current Assistant Coaches, for that matter, J. Dawkins). I'm not arguing about UNC, the way Dean left the program, or their assistant coaches - I'm merely arguing that a lack of a true successor coming from Duke's tree is worrisome to me.

That said, K has a bunch of years left. When he retires, then we can argue the hell out of this topics. Until then....

GO NOLAN!!!

Dawkins' title was ASSOCIATE HEAD COACH and he's already showing that he can do some recruiting. I've got a feeling he can do a little coaching too.

Amaker was hamstrung by a Michigan program mired in foolishness and Chris Webber backlash from the famous Mr. Ed. He's done nothing but get great recruits to come play in the IVY league. He's not sub-par.

Caple's unproven? Maybe you don't recall what he did at VCU.

Collins has got coaching in his blood - he was pretty much born a coach.

By the time K retires, most of these guys will have 10+ years coaching experience. That hardly sounds like we wont have much to select from.

[NSDukeFan]

One question I have is: does it matter who has the better coaching tree? Is it guaranteed that either team is restricted to coaches who have been a part of the program. I believe 30 years ago, Duke hired a coach who had not been a part of the Duke program previously and it has worked out pretty well.

[Indoor66]

One question I have is: does it matter who has the better coaching tree? Is it guaranteed that either team is restricted to coaches who have been a part of the program. I believe 30 years ago, Duke hired a coach who had not been a part of the Duke program previously and it has worked out pretty well.

The only pre-ordained successor in Duke Basketball history was Bucky Waters taking over (leaving West Va) after Vic Bubas. I don't think that worked out so well!

I hope that Duke, when seeking a successor to K in a number of years, selects the best available coach, from wherever. Duke should not limit itself to the K tree.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Two Duke basketball coaches have been very outstanding and neither had any ties to Duke before being hired to coach. One even came from a rival! When the time comes that Coach K retires, there should be no restrictions about where the new guy comes from.

[jesus_hurley]

Dawkins' title was ASSOCIATE HEAD COACH and he's already showing that he can do some recruiting. I've got a feeling he can do a little coaching too.

Amaker was hamstrung by a Michigan program mired in foolishness and Chris Webber backlash from the famous Mr. Ed. He's done nothing but get great recruits to come play in the IVY league. He's not sub-par.

Caple's unproven? Maybe you don't recall what he did at VCU.

Collins has got coaching in his blood - he was pretty much born a coach.

By the time K retires, most of these guys will have 10+ years coaching experience. That hardly sounds like we wont have much to select from.

Dawkins isn't doing half bad on the recruiting trail this year either:
http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/classrankings?classyear=2010&classmonth=11&rank=16&viewmore=yes&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2fclassrankings%3fclassyear%3d2010%2 6classmonth%3d11%26rank%3d16%26viewmore%3dyes

[oldnavy]

Two Duke basketball coaches have been very outstanding and neither had any ties to Duke before being hired to coach. One even came from a rival! When the time comes that Coach K retires, there should be no restrictions about where the new guy comes from.

Coach K will pick his time to leave and he will pick his successor. If you do not think that it will be one of his "family", I think you are fooling yourself.

But really, this won't happen for perhaps another 8-10 years, so let's stop talking about it, it makes me sad!

[Heelkiller1]

We are alot better this year than most people expected , and I for one can't wait to shock the WORLD.LOL

[oldnavy]

We are alot better this year than most people expected , and I for one can't wait to shock the WORLD.LOL

With Nolan playing at a high level, there is no ceiling for this team...:)