Style of play so far

[Jumbo]

I was going to post this in response to the posts after the Charlotte game, but it's really about a larger issue, so I'll start a new thread. I've been saying for a while now that this team is going to be very good, capable of surprising a lot of doubters and fully equipped to challenge for a title. Part of my reasoning was the way I was envisioning this team look not just from a personnel standpoint, but also in terms of style of play and execution. We saw the building blocks of what I imagined in the first two games and then a huge example against Charlotte. And when Mason Plumlee comes back, things are only going to become clearer.

Where to start in explaining this? How about last year's press conference after the loss to Villanova, where Coach K essentially admitted that there were times where we were playing 3-on-5 offensively. Something needed to change, and since we basically had our recruiting class in place, it had to come from a strategic perspective.

Part of the changes were easy. Jon is a natural fit to set up the offense. Nolan, as we saw when he returned from his concussion, is much, much better with an attack mentality (glad the announcers are finally latching on to what we've all known and talked about for some time). Kyle is a matchup problem wherever you play him. We don't have a lot of guards, so we might as well play big. Simple. Cool. But what next?

For starters, don't force a square peg into a round hole. We've got two combo guards and a do-it-all forward. Great! Let them move, cut, screen, make reads. Enough standing still. Enough spread and drive. Let's throw some motion back into the attack. Besides, we're more experienced that we've been, so the players should be ready to handle that.

But what about the bigs? That still looks like 3-on-5. And how do they factor into an approach that involves ball skills, footwork, vision -- movement, passing, cutting? Well, Mason Plumlee was built to play that way. And Ryan Kelly is best utilized in that kind of an approach, too. They're both skilled, tall and can see the floor. Now we're getting somewhere.

Then you're left wth Miles, Lance Zoubs -- and I guess Olek, too. Can they make this work? Well, Lance shouldn't be on the block anyway. Let's see what he can do up high, too. Miles is a freak athlete -- strong, pretty quick, super hops. If nothing else, he can finish down low. Zoubek can catch and finish off a good entry pass, and isn't a bad passer. So how about adding a little high-low action to the motion mix?

Folks, what you're seeing is the early stages of an offensive system which, if it keeps developing, will be much, much tougher to stop on a tough day in March. Spread, drive and kick has its place in basketball, especially with the appropriate personnel. But when you can't get to the rim, or you're not knocking down threes, you're in trouble. From both an aesthetic standpoint, as well as one that gives you the most options and the most margin of error, some form of read-and-react motion is better.

Jay Bilas was right at halftime -- Duke isn't running pure motion. There are a number of set plays. But there's plent of freelance motion going on, too. Players are looking for each other, both with the ball and without it (finding an open spot to cut, a covered man for which to screen). The ball movement is quicker and the passing is better. There are no real ball-stoppers (I loved G, but that was a minor issue, and the ball completely stopped movign when Elliot caught it; Nolan is the only one on this team with even a minor problem in that area, and his is truly minor). And -- this is key -- Players have clealry been instructed to shoot the ball. When Lance is open, he's popping mid-range jumpers. They don't look bad. They'll go in. He'll make himself a threat by midseason -- teams can't ignore him. He needs to keep shooting, and so does Ryan. Trust me on this. And when he's not ignored, he'll have an easier time feeding Miles or Zoubs or Mason in the post from the elbow. He'll be a better screener. Etc. When Olek Czyz is open for threes in the corner, he's taking them. And he's made a couple -- teams can't leave him alone. You're not going to cover Miles Plumlee from 12 feet away? Fine, he'll shoot the short jumper, and he'll make it. And then his confidence builds, so we throw him the ball on the block and he makes a pretty move on the baseline and finishes easily, because he's big and strong and athletic underneath. And you're going to rotate to Jon when he drives? Miles will finish a lob. Oh yes, he will.

We know Dawkins can shoot it, and he's playing well enough already that he allowed K to go to a smaller lineup with Jon, Nolan, Andre and Kyle on the floor together for a stretch. And when Mason comes back? That's another big, skilled, versatile, athletic weapon.

Oh yeah, and all that size? Helps on the boards. And not just because we have someone stationed underneath. With legit size, or even TWO guys with legit size. No, it also helps that instead of battling, say, Trevor Booker for position, Kyle Singler is now flying in for offensive boards while a much smaller player tries to box him out. Scheyer and Smith? Good rebounding guards. Much in the way a nose tackle occupies blockers so linebackers can make plays on D, so, too, do our big guys occupy bodies so our big wings can crash the boards.

But guess what? We can still run, too. We can still pressure the ball, too. You saw that tonight. You'll see more of it going forward, especially when Mason gets back.

Folks, this could get exciting. This team has a LOT of rough areas to smooth out. But there is a plan in place. It's a plan with perhaps the highest upside we've had in a while. It's a plan with built-in fallback options, with enough margin for error to beat a really good team even when certain things go wrong. This team is learning to play a style that is both cerebral and exciting, and as fun as that is for us to watch, it is that much more fun to play in. That should lead to improvement, too.

I can't tell you how long I've been pushing for more motion, more variety
in the attack, more margin for error. Pieces are coming together along those lines. Just get healthy and stay healthy, guys. The plan in place is a really good one.

[Oriole Way]

Great post, I agree with your overall evaluation.

I'm excited about this team because we have someone who I think is the best player in the country in Singler, a smart, crafty senior guard who never turns the ball over in Scheyer, and a breakout talent in Smith who gives Duke a much-needed option to break defenses down off the dribble. I believe most great (championship-caliber) teams need to have at least 3 primary scoring options. Not only does Duke have that, but all three guys have plenty of experience to complement their talent.

As I have mentioned in other game threads, I believe the most important keys for this team are:

- limiting offensive turnovers
- developing a consistent scoring post presence (Miles and Mason, but more so Miles)
- developing secondary scorers (Dawkins, Miles, Mason, Kelly)

I believe this team's size and personnel will allow Duke to be able to count on a fairly consistent rebounding advantage. Defensively we will be playing more zone this season, but I think we can expect a solid defensive team, but obviously not a team that can play all-out man-to-man for a full game the way we've grown accustomed to with Coach K squads.

For this team to be elite and to have a good chance at the Final Four, it will come down to significantly improving our offensive efficiency compared to the past several seasons. Because of the talent of our 3 star players and the talent of the rest of the roster, including the freshmen, I am hopeful that we will see a much better Duke team in March than we've seen in quite a long time (barring those pesky injuries, of course).

[BlueintheFace]

Something else people need to remember. When Lance pops to the top of the key after setting a screen, when he finds himself open to (a) shoot the mid-range jumper, (b) feed the post over the top, or (c) take the big man guarding him off the dribble for a basket or foul... that's going to be Mason Plumlee in a few weeks.

I love Lance and think he is actually playing well on the offensive end, but Mason Plumlee was MADE to be put in that situation. It fits his game so perfectly. Mason is at his best when he is taking big men off the dribble and going to the hoop or hitting that short jumper.

Imagine Nolan wheeling and dealing, Jon taking care of the rock and reading screens to get open for threes or drive the lane, Kyle doing...well EVERYTHING, Miles down low looking for the corner feed in the block or hi-low pass from his brother, and Mason running his offense out of the high post with his brother or taking less athletic men off the dribble. Talk about utilizing strengths.

I just really really hope K keeps this bench as deep as he can.

Another random observation: I think one of our go-to plays when we really need a bucket is Kyle/ Jon running across the lane (baseline) and curling around a post screen to the elbow for the pass and (a) quick shot which both love and can make or (b) driving the lane into the hole the big man has cleared out (as Jon often will do).

[ice-9]

Awesome, great post Jumbo!

This is a nice boost of positivity after the extreme ups and downs of our off-season (Wall, Barnes, Mason's injury).

I too am excited. The UNCG game already gave us a glimpse of what this team can do and the Charlotte game cemented it. Can't wait to get Mason back and to see how that'll take our game to the next level...

[flyingdutchdevil]

Something else people need to remember. When Lance pops to the top of the key after setting a screen, when he finds himself open to (a) shoot the mid-range jumper, (b) feed the post over the top, or (c) take the big man guarding him off the dribble for a basket or foul... that's going to be Mason Plumlee in a few weeks.

I love Lance and think he is actually playing well on the offensive end, but Mason Plumlee was MADE to be put in that situation. It fits his game so perfectly. Mason is at his best when he is taking big men off the dribble and going to the hoop or hitting that short jumper.

Imagine Nolan wheeling and dealing, Jon taking care of the rock and reading screens to get open for threes or drive the lane, Kyle doing...well EVERYTHING, Miles down low looking for the corner feed in the block or hi-low pass from his brother, and Mason running his offense out of the high post with his brother or taking less athletic men off the dribble. Talk about utilizing strengths.

I just really really hope K keeps this bench as deep as he can.

Another random observation: I think one of our go-to plays when we really need a bucket is Kyle/ Jon running across the lane (baseline) and curling around a post screen to the elbow for the pass and (a) quick shot which both love and can make or (b) driving the lane into the hole the big man has cleared out (as Jon often will do).

Great post. Definitely agree with it. But here are the questions: when is Mason coming back? Is his arm broken (which I've heard) or is it a really bad sprain (which I've also heard)? Did he break his dominant (shooting) hand?

I think Mason is key. I am looking forward to his play. But I also really like Thomas in his current role. His defense is amazing, leadership great, and his skills complement the rest. I'm not advocating for LT to start over MP2 (I haven't seen MP2 play, so I don't know), but I really like LT right now. Always have, always will.

[NSDukeFan]

Well, Mason Plumlee was built to play that way. And Ryan Kelly is best utilized in that kind of an approach, too. They're both skilled, tall and can see the floor. Now we're getting somewhere.
Great post! I really like seeing Ryan at the high post. He seems to be a really good passer from there and has enough offensive moves, that if he is overplayed I think he will at times be able to create something for himself there.


Spread, drive and kick has its place in basketball, especially with the appropriate personnel. But when you can't get to the rim, or you're not knocking down threes, you're in trouble.
This is what also really excites me. I didn't think there was anything wrong with the shots we were taking in the Michigan loss last year, it was just a matter of having other options to score when the outside shot isn't falling. When the team is having bad shooting nights (and there will be times when that happens against good teams) I still want us to win those games. I think this offensive system gives us a better chance in those games.


And -- this is key -- Players have clealry been instructed to shoot the ball. When Lance is open, he's popping mid-range jumpers. They don't look bad. They'll go in. He'll make himself a threat by midseason -- teams can't ignore him. He needs to keep shooting, and so does Ryan. Trust me on this.
I definitely trust you on this. I also like Lance taking his man strong to the basket as well, as long as he continues to work on his footwork, so he doesn't travel.


And you're going to rotate to Jon when he drives? Miles will finish a lob. Oh yes, he will.
Can't really argue with you on this point as it was proven emphatically last night.


Oh yeah, and all that size? Helps on the boards. And not just because we have someone stationed underneath. With legit size, or even TWO guys with legit size.
I was really impressed with our rebounding last year and just hope that now that we are bigger we don't stop putting effort in here. We could be an outstanding rebounding team. I felt like Miles and Z were huge presences on the defensive boards last night (and did a good job on offense as well) and there were a number of times where I felt very confident nobody was getting a rebound from them. I hope to see that continue.

But guess what? We can still run, too. We can still pressure the ball, too. You saw that tonight. You'll see more of it going forward, especially when Mason gets back.

I can't tell you how long I've been pushing for more motion, more variety
in the attack, more margin for error. Pieces are coming together along those lines. Just get healthy and stay healthy, guys. The plan in place is a really good one.

I really believe to be a consistently successful team, you need to be able to get easy baskets, as the team will have bad shooting nights. Whether that is off turnovers, fast break points or points in the paint, we need some easy baskets and I look forward to the team generating these in many different ways. Thanks Jumbo for highlighting other reasons to be excited about this team.

[oldnavy]

Great summary Jumbo. Amazing how inserting Nolan into the line up makes so much come together. I have been telling anyone who would listen to me that this year's success rides heavily on Nolan's play and so far he has not disappointed. We have all the pieces to be a great team and Nolan is the catalyst in my opinion. GO DUKE, GTHC, GTH!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I hate to be a bandwagon jumper, but Jumbo, that was an excellent evaluation!

Watching the first half, well the first 17 minutes of the first half last night, it was how easily we scored that really impressed me. It certainly helps when the 3ball goes down, but the defense, movement and passing inside and out was a pleasure to see. Reminded me of 1999 and 2001 :D

Nolan had 2 rebounds where he REALLY soared above the rim to get them - all I could say was "WOW!" His quickness (and speed) really makes a difference in the style this team plays, and they play so well when all is clicking. :cool:

In talking last night with others who have just heard rumors, they've heard that Mason will be back in somewhere between 1 and 4 more weeks. OK, that fits the 4 to 6 weeks we were told when he broke his wrist (it's his non-shooting wrist, to answer that question). Either way, it sounds like a NYC return, just a matter of if it is for the NIT next week or the Gonzaga game on 12/19.

[NYDukie]

I agree with much of the observations made. After the Nova flameout last March and some recruiting loss I read about recently (like no one knows...LOL) some positive news is welcomed. My first impressions is that overall the team looks better than what I anticipated out of the block and it will be interesting to see their further development when Mason comes back and is worked back into the rotation as I see him being a significant part of that. That said, I look forward to see how the team plays and develops in the upcoming weeks against better quality opponents who will be better prepared both with players and coaching schemes. ASU will be the first barometer for us and hopefully UConn to follow along with Wisconsin. I think after those games we will get a better sense of where this season may take us and see how the team responds to adversity (i.e. - how they respond to other teams quality guard depth, ball pressure, equal size, better athletes, etc.) because as you know all teams, even the ones who win it all, will face some form of it during the year. This is a marathon and not a sprint and how the coaches and team responds and grows will be a very important aspect to the team's overall end game given their strengths and weaknesses.

[mehmattski]

I think you're absolutely right about the players being instructed to shoot the ball wherever possible. I have been to all three regular season games and I just remember a sense of not really getting any chants going while Duke had the ball, because we would shoot within the first 10 seconds of the shot clock.

At any rate, our offense will make happy those announcers who belabor the loss of the mid-range jumper!

[davekay1971]

I can't wait to see Mason Plumlee get added into what is already a really, really good mix. How much will his injury set him back? This is a kid with, from what you and other folks in the know have said, has great great potential. He's also a freshman who started his season off with a hand injury. When he's recovered and has a few games under his belt (say, hopefully, by January), do you anticipate he'll be a major contributor in the offense, or do you think he'll take a good part of the season to work himself into the system?

Thanks for the info, as always.

[JDev]

This style of play is such a positive because there really isn't a better way to take advantage of the talent on the roster. The make-up of the team, and the skills of the players individually and collectively really lends itself to this type of play. K has done a great job of seeing what his guys are good at and putting them in the best position to use those skills.

[Indoor66]

Watching them playl, it appears that they enjoy playing together. Chemistry is a key factor in success in BB, and we have chemistry. I see a VERY high ceiling for this team - if they continue on this path.

[superdave]

One of my high school teammates used to always yell "Shoot the pill" from our seats on the end of the bench. I was yelling that last night whenever LT, Ryan, or Andre got even a little bit open. I agree with Jumbo: shoot, baby, shoot! Having our 5-9 rotation guys willing and able to knock down open jumpers vastly expands our options.

Also, with our 4's and 5's able to score, our ppg should go up from last year and easy buckets (stick backs, dunks) should be a larger share of our offense. This is always a good thing.

It also looks like we have big men who can finish on the break. Miles got a steal, two hard dribbles and a dunk last night. I'm assuming Mason can do the same and hopefully Ryan and Olek too.

But our personnel this year means we can match up with almost anyone, but very few will be able to match up with us. We have options, we have diversity and we have six weeks of games with a high margin for error to let guys shoot away.

[HCheek37]

Good OP here, I posted something along these lines in the game thread from last night, but I will reiterate it here. I am excited to see that this team filled with size does not play a "slow big 10 grind". We obviously have athletic big men (yes even Zoubs) and this type of play is encouraging thus far. Everyone that gets minutes minus Zoubs/LT/MP1 can shoot the 3 and drive, so while it may not be the drive and kick offense of last year, it is still a multi-dimensional offense.

I think it will be interesting to see how we play against a grind it out team like ASU and then possibly Uconn who would obviously be the most athletic opponent yet.

[COYS]

To add to everything Jumbo and everyone else has already said, was anyone else impressed by how quickly we played on offense? I don't mean that we were running every single time but we made quick decisions in terms of passing or shooting, cutting, screening, etc. It was very smooth and impressive. Much less pounding the ball into the hardwood than last season. The motion offense looks even more promising when our passing is as decisive as it was for much of last night. It also dramatically increases our overall quickness as a team. Nolan, Kyle and Jon have all noticeably sped up their releases on their shots. If they get an inch of space, they can knock down the jumper. This forces defenses to play even closer to them which makes Nolan's quickness, Jon's craftiness, and Kyle's many talents even more dangerous for drives. I love it.

[oldnavy]

One of my high school teammates used to always yell "Shoot the pill" from our seats on the end of the bench. I was yelling that last night whenever LT, Ryan, or Andre got even a little bit open. I agree with Jumbo: shoot, baby, shoot! Having our 5-9 rotation guys willing and able to knock down open jumpers vastly expands our options.

Also, with our 4's and 5's able to score, our ppg should go up from last year and easy buckets (stick backs, dunks) should be a larger share of our offense. This is always a good thing.

It also looks like we have big men who can finish on the break. Miles got a steal, two hard dribbles and a dunk last night. I'm assuming Mason can do the same and hopefully Ryan and Olek too.

But our personnel this year means we can match up with almost anyone, but very few will be able to match up with us. We have options, we have diversity and we have six weeks of games with a high margin for error to let guys shoot away.

It also doesn't hurt that we have a very good rebounding team either. That gives the team some confidence that if the shot misses there is a good chance for a offensive rebound and put back.

[jv001]

Jumbo once again you nailed it. I believe with Nolan and Mason coming back to the squad, we will be a very good team. Nolan looked so smooth and confident. His shot looks real good and is he quick? Miles is just an amazing athlete and he is showing confidence he lacked last year. LT is playing good perimeter defense and I agree he can hit the midrange jumper. I think when our guys are open, shoot it. We have a good offensive rebounding team and can make some put backs if we miss. One of the anouncers said that Mason would be evaluated today. Let's hope he comes back real soon. And for those that thought Jon could not run the offense, they are wrong. Sure, he's not your typical pg, but he does not make mistakes. Did he have a TO last night? I don't think he had one in the first two games. Man I'm excited about the ceiling of this team. Without anymore injuries, this team could really be hitting it's stride come Feb & Mar. Go Duke!

[DukieInBrasil]

Just to add a couple of observations to the jubilation:
Jon has yet to make a turnover yet through 3 games, that has been talked about some already, but to go along with that, Ryan Kelly has yet to make a TO either and Miles already has more assists this year (2) than he had all of last year (1). We have had more assists than TOs so far, and the turnovers are coming mostly from LT and MP I, who are in general expected to turn the ball over as Forwards. The guards are not turning the ball over hardly at all and, in general, the bulk of our forwards are limiting TOs as well, this is great!
Miles has made such a tremendous transformation so far, it is great to see that he his work in the off season is paying off.
Z has also become, if not a star, a very valuable component of the team.
Olek has also made a big transformation, from being essentially useless in most games, to being a moderately reliable option and worthy of getting serious minutes.
It is nice to see that Andre has no qualms about jacking up 3s, he´s taken 18 already!!!

[trinity92]

Lots of good points as usual Jumbo, but I still don't want Lance taking too many shots from the foul line on out. Reminds me of the Bulls and Knicks in the early '90s-- the Bulls would leave Charles Oakley wide open for the same 15-20 foot shot, making sure to cover the Knicks' bigger offensive threats, basically saying "If Charles Oakley is going to beat us, so be it."

I've watched the games too the past 3 years, and I know Lance can make the shot, but I still want our best jump shooters taking most of the outside shots, whether they're covered or not. It's well worth running an extra 8-10 seconds of offense to get one of them open rather than having Lance pop a 17 footer with 25 seconds left on the shot clock just because he's wide open. Honestly, if a good team were to leave Lance WIDE open for a 15+ foot jumper all game and Lance took 50 shots, who would win?

Lance should take that shot, but never as our first option.

[Reddevil]

This more passing, less dribbling offense compliments this team perfectly. Instead of a true point guard, the team is using two combo guards and point forwards with lots of picks. The decisions are quicker. Everyone has the right to shoot when the open look is there which means more two attempts than threes. Nolan is confident, and it rubs off on the team. Dawkins is precocious. Mason should be back for ACC play. This isn't last years team without G, and EWill. This is a different beast altogether.

[Wander]

But what about the bigs? That still looks like 3-on-5. And how do they factor into an approach that involves ball skills, footwork, vision -- movement, passing, cutting? Well, Mason Plumlee was built to play that way. And Ryan Kelly is best utilized in that kind of an approach, too. They're both skilled, tall and can see the floor. Now we're getting somewhere.

Then you're left wth Miles, Lance Zoubs -- and I guess Olek, too. Can they make this work? Well, Lance shouldn't be on the block anyway. Let's see what he can do up high, too. Miles is a freak athlete -- strong, pretty quick, super hops. If nothing else, he can finish down low. Zoubek can catch and finish off a good entry pass, and isn't a bad passer. So how about adding a little high-low action to the motion mix?

Good description, but I disagree a little with the impression you're giving here. I don't think we'll be the Nolan/Jon/Kyle show with all the frontcourt guys playing various equal roles and taking turns stepping up in different games. My guess is the Plumlees really assert themselves as the obvious 4th and 5th starters. This will give us our first truly complete starting lineup since 2004, which we just would not have starting Lance, Z, Kelly, or Olek. I know I'm harping on those guys a bunch recently but I am very excited about the Plumlees.

[Kedsy]

Great post, Jumbo, I agree with everything you said. I've always preferred a motion offense to the spread-and-drive, especially for a college team (as opposed to NBA).

Having said that, I was never worried about this year's team's offense. I was confident the motion offense would work and that we'd be able to run off defensive rebounds. I expected our size and versatility to cause matchup nightmares for our opponents. In my mind the key was (and still is) how well we can defend quick, athletic teams. Obviously the jury's still out on that, but what we've seen so far is promising. If our defense holds up this is going to be a very fun year.


This isn't last years team without G, and EWill. This is a different beast altogether.

I totally agree with this as well, and I'm glad somebody said it. The team bears very little resemblance to last year's team.

[jv001]

This more passing, less dribbling offense compliments this team perfectly. The decisions are quicker. Everyone has the right to shoot when the open look is there which means more two attempts than threes. This isn't last years team without G, and EWill. This is a different beast altogether.

Your point of this not being like last years team is right on target. Last year when the ball was in Gerald's or Elliot's hands there was way too much standing around waiting for them to drive and shoot or kick out for a 3. This year we have the ball moving, picks being set, offensive rebounds, motion offense, some zone on defense and we are not so dependent on the 3 pointer. I like the moves so far from Coach K. Go Duke!

[uh_no]

Lots of good points as usual Jumbo, but I still don't want Lance taking too many shots from the foul line on out. Reminds me of the Bulls and Knicks in the early '90s-- the Bulls would leave Charles Oakley wide open for the same 15-20 foot shot, making sure to cover the Knicks' bigger offensive threats, basically saying "If Charles Oakley is going to beat us, so be it."

I've watched the games too the past 3 years, and I know Lance can make the shot, but I still want our best jump shooters taking most of the outside shots, whether they're covered or not. It's well worth running an extra 8-10 seconds of offense to get one of them open rather than having Lance pop a 17 footer with 25 seconds left on the shot clock just because he's wide open. Honestly, if a good team were to leave Lance WIDE open for a 15+ foot jumper all game and Lance took 50 shots, who would win?

Lance should take that shot, but never as our first option.

spot on....i was going to post the same thing.....there were collective groans in the student section every time lance checked up for a jumper from 15'

[BlueintheFace]

spot on....i was going to post the same thing.....there were collective groans in the student section every time lance checked up for a jumper from 15'

Disagree strongly. That is the shot defenses will be giving to Mason/ Lance in our offense. Both need to take it and make it. We all know Lance can and has hit it consistently at times. He may struggle with right now, but the team is much better in March if Lance/Mason (and even Kelly) are taking that shot. If defenses lay off them, basket. If they pressure the high post, pass down low to Miles, dunk... or drive the big man forced to step out and defend.

Defenders need to feel that they can hit that shot because if they fear it, that opens up higher percentage shots for our high post players(free throws off the drive and dunks/layups down low).

[MChambers]

Defenders need to feel that they can hit that shot because if they fear it, that opens up higher percentage shots for our high post players(free throws off the drive and dunks/layups down low).

Remember after the Villanova game, Coach K said Duke was playing 3 on 5? Duke needs all five players to present at least some sort of offensive threat.

[Dukerati]

We are a fun and exciting team when everyone can stay on the floor but like most teams in college basketball, we are still overly reliant on our stars. Our motion offense works because we have 2-3 primary scoring threats that the team can work to create shots for. What happens if Scheyer and/or Singler get in foul trouble? I think we all take their basketball IQ for granted but that's one of the main questions that will worry me in March. One bad matchup, 2-3 quick fouls on Scheyer/Singler, :eek:

[RainingThrees]

I love the zone we play. Hopefully we use it a lot early on to gain some experience then use it to throw off good teams like the holes.

[Wander]

We all know Lance can and has hit it consistently at times.

Maybe I'm just blanking, but I really don't remember Lance ever consistently hitting mid range jumpers. I remember him making a few throughout the whole season, with the vast majority of his points coming from layups or tips or occasionally FTs. If someone has an actual number for his jumpers made, feel free to correct me.

[RainingThrees]

I don't remember him hitting them consistantly either, other wise I would have noticed him shooting instead of passing over the years. I think his shot is a new addition to his game.

[SMO]

Maybe I'm just blanking, but I really don't remember Lance ever consistently hitting mid range jumpers. I remember him making a few throughout the whole season, with the vast majority of his points coming from layups or tips or occasionally FTs. If someone has an actual number for his jumpers made, feel free to correct me.

I think you're right. What the original poster may have meant was that we've seen Lance take and make those shots occasionally before. He's never taken them consistently let alone made them, except for perhaps in high school. Since he's made them occasionally and has a decent stroke, there's room for optimism but I wouldn't say that's a shot he's made regularly.

[oldnavy]

We are a fun and exciting team when everyone can stay on the floor but like most teams in college basketball, we are still overly reliant on our stars. Our motion offense works because we have 2-3 primary scoring threats that the team can work to create shots for. What happens if Scheyer and/or Singler get in foul trouble? I think we all take their basketball IQ for granted but that's one of the main questions that will worry me in March. One bad matchup, 2-3 quick fouls on Scheyer/Singler, :eek:

Every team has that worry in March. Two or three quick fouls on Ty Lawson last year and maybe MSU is cutting down the nets. That is why you should find comfort in Scheyer and Singler's BBALL IQ. They are too smart to get those type of fouls, especially in the big games.

[feldspar]

Everyone keeps talking about rebounding, but how about some numbers?

Duke vs. UNCG: Duke outrebounded UNCG 44-26 overall. 15-13 on offensive rebounds.

Duke vs. CC: Duke outrebounded CC 40-34. CC actually outrebounded Duke 15-13 on the offensive glass in that game.

Duke vs. Charlotte: Duke outrebounded Charlotte 46-34. Duke outrebounded on the offensive end 15-12.

So, these numbers are good, but not staggering. We'll have to pick up our rebounding efforts in preparation for a grueling ACC schedule. But we're certainly making strides from last year.

[BlueintheFace]

Maybe I'm just blanking, but I really don't remember Lance ever consistently hitting mid range jumpers. I remember him making a few throughout the whole season, with the vast majority of his points coming from layups or tips or occasionally FTs. If someone has an actual number for his jumpers made, feel free to correct me.

end of last year he broke it out and hit it consistently for a few games....

[Devilsfan]

Hope Nolan can go 40 mins. / game. Without him were not up tempo enough and there's not much help for Singler and Scheyer.

[pfrduke]

Everyone keeps talking about rebounding, but how about some numbers?

Duke vs. UNCG: Duke outrebounded UNCG 44-26 overall. 15-13 on offensive rebounds.

Duke vs. CC: Duke outrebounded CC 40-34. CC actually outrebounded Duke 15-13 on the offensive glass in that game.

Duke vs. Charlotte: Duke outrebounded Charlotte 46-34. Duke outrebounded on the offensive end 15-12.

So, these numbers are good, but not staggering. We'll have to pick up our rebounding efforts in preparation for a grueling ACC schedule. But we're certainly making strides from last year.

I think ratios, rather than raw numbers, give a little more information.

Against UNCG, we rebounded 15 of our 28 misses, or 54% - that's exceptional. On defense, we rebounded 29 of their 42 misses, or 69% - that's good, not great.

Against Coastal, we rebounded 13 of our 31 misses, or 41% - again, that's very good. On defense, we rebounded 27 of their 42 misses, or 64% - that's only ok, and it's not really true to say that Coastal "outrebounded" us on the offensive glass - they just missed more shots.

Against Charlotte, we rebounded 15 of our 37 misses, or 41%. On defense, we rebounded 31 of their 43 misses, or 72% - that's excellent.

Over the three games, were gathering in 45% of our own missed shots and 69% of our opponents'. The offensive number is excellent, the defensive number above average.

[Kedsy]

Hope Nolan can go 40 mins. / game. Without him were not up tempo enough and there's not much help for Singler and Scheyer.

Did he go 40 mins against Charlotte? I missed that.

[oldnavy]

Hope Nolan can go 40 mins. / game. Without him were not up tempo enough and there's not much help for Singler and Scheyer.

We don't need him for 40 mpg, but 30 mpg sure would be nice!

[Dukeface88]

We know Dawkins can shoot it, and he's playing well enough already that he allowed K to go to a smaller lineup with Jon, Nolan, Andre and Kyle on the floor together for a stretch.


Was anyone else surprised to see this? We had a good chuckle in the stands about having all of our guards out at once. I know Coach K likes him some guard play, but dang.

I agree in general with what's been said. The offense the first two games was a bit like a semi; big, powerful, but not exactly exactly the most agile. It works, but it isn't pretty to look at. Last night was totally different- fast, explosive and very fun to watch.


Did he go 40 mins against Charlotte? I missed that.

Box score says 32, but of course there was no need for him to go all the way.
I also thought it was good to see Nolan get some point time while Schuyer rested. I think having the option to switch them out is going to pay off later in the season against the more athletic points that gave us some trouble last year.

[Reddevil]

I'm sure Nolan will play around 30 min./game. While it is obviously true that the team has a better flow when he is in, when he's out Scheyer runs a tight ship and it gives the opponent a different look. This can be used as an advantage in short stretches. I trust the staff will take the positive approach as usual. Let's not even think about injuries though - except when Mason is ready - look out!

[Dukeface88]

I'm sure Nolan will play around 30 min./game. While it is obviously true that the team has a better flow when he is in, when he's out Scheyer runs a tight ship and it gives the opponent a different look. This can be used as an advantage in short stretches. I trust the staff will take the positive approach as usual. Let's not even think about injuries though - except when Mason is ready - look out!

Speaking of Scheyer, he had a pretty nice game himself, even it does seem to have gotten less notice than Nolan's. 20 points and 0 TOs (again) is very good. If he can keep putting up those kinds of numbers we're in for a good year.

[dw0827]

I have a feeling that Coach K really enjoys the versatility of this team. He played a big line up and I'll be darned if I didn't see all three guards (Nolan, Jon, Andre), Singler, and a big guy out there at some point.

EGADS. Small ball. Didn't expect to see that . . . but it made sense and could be the team we see at the end of a lot of games.

The zone is interesting. Personally, I wonder if it isn't more effective when Lance is out on the point. His energy, wing span, and speed really can really cause problem for opposing teams.

This team may not win it all . . . but if you love basketball . . . this will undoubtedly prove to be one of the more interesting and fun teams we've had in many years.

This team simply has to be a coach's dream.

[dukestheheat]

Clearly though, Duke looks totally different with Nolan on the floor! I think that with Nolan's suspension and two game hiatus, we get a glimpse of what we can expect IF one of our guards (in this case, Nolan) gets into serious foul trouble (or, fouls out altogether).

In that situation, we are rebounding and blocking shots but our offense just isn't as good. Dawkins is still working to find his shot and really, that leaves Scheyer and Singler to create the slashing/attack mode.

Bottom-line: We are going to have to find some way to keep all of the guards in the game and on the floor for Duke this year, and if Dawkins can give Duke 11 points per game, we are looking good.

dth.

[MarkD83]

In a separate thread I promised Bob Greene my observations about the past two games since I went to both of them. Since this thread is about style and encompasses more than one game I decided to put my thoughts here. I will try to make this different than most analysis because I won't talk about individual players or statistics. Other folks do excellent jobs with these types of analyses. Instead I will talk about team aspects of the game such as team flexibility, communication and ability to learn as a group.

I saw two completely but equally effective Duke teams the past two days. Coach K will have a lot of fun coaching this team because he can change styles depending upon who Duke is playing and who is injured or in foul trouble. (Note to Dexter Strickland, UNC only has one style of play that requires an ultra-quick point guard. When you get one tell me. Oh I forgot Kyrie Irving is coming to Duke next year.)

On offense Coach K can play the traditional 4 wings (pick 4 Kyle, Ryan, Jon, Andre and Nolan) and one big man with lots of motion or he can play 4 bigs and one guard with three of the bigs being in and around the paint. With this line-up they can do a lot of high low passing or just throw it up on the backboard and grab the offensive rebounds. Out of the 4 bigs set they can also have the bigs be Ryan and Kyle with one or both of them popping out for a three. Call this offense a hybrid between the two. Notice something else that Coach K will love. If Ryan and Kyle are on the floor Duke can switch between any of these three offensives on the fly depending upon who the other team has on the floor.

On defense they can play the traditional overplay on the perimeter defense with the difference this year that the one or two big men in the game will be going for the shot block rather than the charge. If they want to be really nasty then can even give a few hard fouls and anyone that beats a man out front will think twice about who is around to block their shot. (Note: TV pundits will say that Duke still can't cover the perimeter but will fail to notice that the end result will be a forced shot or block and a Duke rebound. Last year when a defender was beaten on the perimeter it meant a layup.) The other option is the 3-2 matchup. This is particularly intriguing for two reasons. First the man in the middle at the top is either Lance or Ryan. No one is going to shot over those guys so the option is to drive. The driver will then be looking at two 6'10" to 7'1" guys on the back of the zone ready to block their shot.

What most impressed me in the two day stretch is that in two games with vastly different styles of play the team was always communicating well with each other. During play you could see everyone directing one another to spots on the floor on defense as well as calling out where the opposing offensive players were on the court (very important in a zone defense). With the clock stopped all of the players were talking about how the last plays went and were very animated about what to do on the next play.

Two final observations about the communication. It appeared that when the underclassmen were directed to do something they only had to be told once. In addition, 80-90% of the communication was not about mistakes being made. That is, not playing the right defense or not being in the right position on offense. Instead it was subtle moves that could improve what they were doing on the court. For instance a couple of times in the first game Andre was open but looked inside or hesitated. He was then told to shoot the open shot. In the rest of the first game and in the second game, Andre fired it up when he was open.

Most importantly about communication even though we have 4-5 sophomores and freshman getting alot of playing time none of them looked lost on the court. That means that the communication was to get the team to learn how to play better together. To let you better understand what I mean even toward the end of last year there were turnovers where the ball was passed where someone wasn't. The discussion in the huddle or between players was about who missed an assignment. In the last two games I did not see turnovers or mistakes that were missed assignments. The mistakes were players getting overzealous or too aggressive. A few encouraging words or adjustments and the mistakes were fixed. Bottom-line this team looks like a group of upperclassmen even though there are 4-5 sophomores and freshmen.

My final lesson/suggestion about this team is... analyzing a player at a time or a game at a time is fun, but is never the whole picture. Coach K may give 4 guards play a lot in one game because he sees great match-ups he can exploit. In the next game 4 bigs may get a lot of playing time. So in addition to the game-to-game analyses perhaps we could have a weekly analysis of the bigger/team oriented issues.

Mark D

[Exiled_Devil]

EGADS. Small ball. Didn't expect to see that . . . but it made sense and could be the team we see at the end of a lot of games.

.

One thing I noticed against Charlotte - no stall ball* in the game at all. I wonder if this will be a new trend this year.


*Classic, sit out by the half-court line and wait until the shot clock is at 8.

[BlueintheFace]

One thing I noticed against Charlotte - no stall ball* in the game at all. I wonder if this will be a new trend this year.


*Classic, sit out by the half-court line and wait until the shot clock is at 8.

Don't count on it. That strategy is only utilized in closer games for obvious reasons.

[Jumbo]

spot on....i was going to post the same thing.....there were collective groans in the student section every time lance checked up for a jumper from 15'

I don't put much stock in "collective groans from the student section." The student section is smart about many, many things. I'm not sure knowledge of shot selection is one of them.

To return to Trinity's point, obviously we don't want Lance shooting 10 jumpers a game. But if he shoots a couple in rhythm, it helps everyone. For one, it keeps the flow of the offense going -- when a shot presents itself, and someone takes it, usually the D is scrambling and usually the rest of the team has a better chance to grab an offensive board. Plus, it establishes everyone on the floor as a threat. That doesn't just manifest itself in individual confidence, but collective confidence. Again, this will pay off in the long haul.

BTW, Charles Oakley was basically the Knicks' best mid-range shooter those years. The Bulls didn't leave him open. He was open because Ewing was being double- and triple- teamed and most of the other Knicks weren't particularly good shooters. The Oak Man really became a very effective mid-range shooter.

[Jumbo]

Good description, but I disagree a little with the impression you're giving here. I don't think we'll be the Nolan/Jon/Kyle show with all the frontcourt guys playing various equal roles and taking turns stepping up in different games. My guess is the Plumlees really assert themselves as the obvious 4th and 5th starters. This will give us our first truly complete starting lineup since 2004, which we just would not have starting Lance, Z, Kelly, or Olek. I know I'm harping on those guys a bunch recently but I am very excited about the Plumlees.

I basically agree, and certainly didn't mean to imply otherwise. In particular, I think Mason Plumlee will be a stud this season. And I think Miles has separated himself from Zoubek. Lance will be quite valuable for a lot of different reasons, though.

[Jumbo]

I love the zone we play. Hopefully we use it a lot early on to gain some experience then use it to throw off good teams like the holes.

Still not a big fan of zone in general, and we didn't play much of it against Charlotte. This isn't surprising -- Nolan was back, which allowed us to play man-to-man easier. And we even played pressure man-to-man -- Scheyer was doing his thing denying on the wing, we switched screens, we contested jumpers. Interestingly, the time I noticed Duke go zone was with a "small" team on the floor -- Scheyer, Smith, Dawkins and Singler together (I think Kelly might've been in too).

[Spam Filter]

It only establishes everyone on the floor as a threat if Lance can hit those shots with some regularity, if he hits 25% of them then it doesn't establish him as a threat at all and eventually team will stop scrambling and start to box out expecting him to miss.

Which is my way of saying that we can let this go a few more games and see if he can start to make that shot, and then re-evaluate, at which point he may no longer get the greenlight to take that shot.

[BlueintheFace]

Still not a big fan of zone in general, and we didn't play much of it against Charlotte. This isn't surprising -- Nolan was back, which allowed us to play man-to-man easier. And we even played pressure man-to-man -- Scheyer was doing his thing denying on the wing, we switched screens, we contested jumpers. Interestingly, the time I noticed Duke go zone was with a "small" team on the floor -- Scheyer, Smith, Dawkins and Singler together (I think Kelly might've been in too).

I prefer man too for the most part (though I like the variety and giving teams different looks from a mental perspective). The zone hurts what should be our large rebounding advantage a bit. Also, the pressure man shouldn't hurt us nearly as much this year with the Plumlee brothers patrolling the paint and looking for blocks. I almost would prefer a top tier guard to drive the lane than sit outside and drain jumper after jumper on our zone since we have a last line of defense this year (or so it seems).

[Dukeface88]

I don't put much stock in "collective groans from the student section." The student section is smart about many, many things. I'm not sure knowledge of shot selection is one of them.

The groans happened after the shots missed, not as they were happening. I think the students know that Lance is more of defensive player. It isn't the same as when Scheyer or Singler miss, they'll get more shots later on. We did the same thing with McClure last year, or when one of the guys who doesn't play much gets shots during garbage time. Incidentally, I see Lance as being a bit like a bigger McClure in terms of role, although turnovers are more of an issue. That's not a bad thing; I always liked McClure even if he wasn't the most athletic or talented guy on the team.

[Bob Green]

I see Lance as being a bit like a bigger McClure in terms of role....

McClure was a much better rebounder than Thomas.

If Duke ends up facing UConn in the NIT Season Tip-Off Championship Game, Thomas' defensive versatility will definitely be an asset Coach K will look to exploit. Jerome Dyson and Kemba Walker are both strong quick guards so I expect Thomas will be asked to help out on the perimeter some, but the Huskies are also big in the frontcourt so he will have to bang with the big boys at times as well. Thomas says he can guard all five positions if asked to and in the UConn game he might be asked.

However, the UConn Huskies have a tough match-up against the LSU Tigers to take care of first. But that is a topic for a different message board...

[flyingdutchdevil]

McClure was a much better rebounder than Thomas.

Thomas has a much better offensive game than McClure and is not afraid to take the shot.

A few times this year already, Thomas has attacked the basket (against CC, I think). McClure would never take a shot unless he was completely open (for instance, when teams would double team G and G would feed a beautiful pass to McClure). I really like Thomas and think he is the x-factor for this team. We know what we're going to get out of the three Ss (Smith is a little more of an unknown, but I have so much faith in him) and the two MPs will provide a lot of minutes and hopefully some good offense. Thomas is the true x-factor: provide some offense and defenses will need to remain honest with him. He is our most important defender and vocal team leader. In effect, he is the ultimate glue guy.

[oldnavy]

The zone hurts what should be our large rebounding advantage a bit.

I was always under the impression that zone defenses favored defensive rebounding. Is there a particular aspect of our zone or man to man that changes the advantage?

[Bob Green]

I don't have anything substantial to add to this great discussion on our style of play. But I would like to point out some specific plays I was really impressed with during the Charlotte game:

1. Jon Scheyer rebounding his own miss on an outside shot and scoring on a lay-up. Twice!

2. The Ryan Kelly to Brian Zoubek high-low pass for an easy bucket.

3. The Jon Scheyer lob to Miles Plumlee who finished with a thundering dunk.

4. Zoubek's hook shot for a basket followed a few possessions later by a left handed hook shot. Yeah, he missed the second shot off the front of the rim, but I was really excited he had the confidence to try a left handed hook. Hopefully he tries again and makes that shot.

5. Jon Scheyer's block that Andre Dawkins gathered in and fed to a streaking Nolan Smith for a fast break dunk.

6. Miles Plumlee stealing the ball on the perimeter and converting a break away dunk.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I don't have anything substantial to add to this great discussion on our style of play. But I would like to point out some specific plays I was really impressed with during the Charlotte game:

1. Jon Scheyer rebounding his own miss on an outside shot and scoring on a lay-up. Twice!

2. The Ryan Kelly to Brian Zoubek high-low pass for an easy bucket.

3. The Jon Scheyer lob to Miles Plumlee who finished with a thundering dunk.

4. Zoubek's hook shot for a basket followed a few possessions later by a left handed hook shot. Yeah, he missed the second shot off the front of the rim, but I was really excited he had the confidence to try a left handed hook. Hopefully he tries again and makes that shot.

5. Jon Scheyer's block that Andre Dawkins gathered in and fed to a streaking Nolan Smith for a fast break dunk.

6. Miles Plumlee stealing the ball on the perimeter and converting a break away dunk.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't 2) supposed to be Ryan Kelly to Miles Plumlee? He did that twice - once in the CC game and the other against Charlotte.

I really like Ryan Kelly. He has the potential to be a great point forward. He is already one of the best passers on this team.

[Bob Green]

If I'm not mistaken, isn't 2) supposed to be Ryan Kelly to Miles Plumlee? He did that twice - once in the CC game and the other against Charlotte.

I really like Ryan Kelly. He has the potential to be a great point forward. He is already one of the best passers on this team.

Kelly might have executed the high-low pass to Miles Plumlee as well but he definitely fed Zoubek for an easy basket in the game against Charlotte.

I agree with you that Kelly is a good passer and he can also knockdown the 15 foot jumpshot so that makes him valuable in the high post.

[Kedsy]

What most impressed me in the two day stretch is that in two games with vastly different styles of play the team was always communicating well with each other. During play you could see everyone directing one another to spots on the floor on defense as well as calling out where the opposing offensive players were on the court (very important in a zone defense). With the clock stopped all of the players were talking about how the last plays went and were very animated about what to do on the next play.


Good communication is the key to good team defense, especially for a K-coached team, so to hear the team (with, in essence, four (soon to be five) new players) is communicating so well so soon bodes very well for this team's future. I think our ability to play solid team defense is the key to our prospects this year.

[bird]

On defense they can play the traditional overplay on the perimeter defense with the difference this year that the one or two big men in the game will be going for the shot block rather than the charge. If they want to be really nasty then can even give a few hard fouls and anyone that beats a man out front will think twice about who is around to block their shot. (Note: TV pundits will say that Duke still can't cover the perimeter but will fail to notice that the end result will be a forced shot or block and a Duke rebound. Last year when a defender was beaten on the perimeter it meant a layup.)
Mark D

In prior years we had discussions that Duke in particular, and good defenses in general, are designed to deny the two most productive types of shots in college basketball: the three point shot and the layup, at the cost of possibly giving up the mid-range jumper. Overplay on the outside to deny the three makes you vulnerable to the drive, but if you defend the rim well that's acceptable because what you are really giving up are the less productive mid-range jumpers. The knock on Duke for years now is that we are vulnerable to quick guard play (see Villanova) because our guards can get beat. What the real criticism is what came afterward; a failure to deal adequately with the penetrator. I still have bad flashbacks about what happened against Villanova, which I had the misfortune to witness personally. I really like your suggestion: lots of quality size means that our overplay on the perimeter is serving a purpose even if we are beaten off the dribble if what happens is that the driver is funneled into a forest of long arms. Using a lot of zone would seem to be defeatist; I don't like the idea of zone for this Duke team or much generally, particularly if it comes at the cost of reduced perimeter pressure.

[Jumbo]

The groans happened after the shots missed, not as they were happening. I think the students know that Lance is more of defensive player. It isn't the same as when Scheyer or Singler miss, they'll get more shots later on. We did the same thing with McClure last year, or when one of the guys who doesn't play much gets shots during garbage time. Incidentally, I see Lance as being a bit like a bigger McClure in terms of role, although turnovers are more of an issue. That's not a bad thing; I always liked McClure even if he wasn't the most athletic or talented guy on the team.

And I can't tell you how many times I heard/saw K yell at McClure "shoot the ball!" Clealry, he wants his players to be aggressive offensively. So stop groaning.

[Jumbo]

I was always under the impression that zone defenses favored defensive rebounding. Is there a particular aspect of our zone or man to man that changes the advantage?

The theory (and truth) is that its much more difficult to rebound out of a zone. And the reasoning is actually pretty simple when you think about it. The most important part of rebounding is boxing out. When you are assigned to a man, it's easy to turn and put a body on him when a shot goes up. But when you are assigned to an area, sometimes you're left scrambling for someone to body-up, and the offensive players have the advantage of sneaking in the gaps to get good positoin before someone gets in the way.

[airowe]

I agree with your take regarding zone and rebounding but that's looking at it a little to broadly. Duke plays a different kind of zone, with man-to-man principles mixed in with zone positioning. This leads to less guys simply guarding a place on the floor and more guys finding the man in their designated place on the floor, and sticking with him, especially after a shot goes up. This is one reason why Duke has been able to rebound well out of zone this year, another reason being height advantage at almost every position on the floor. I saw a couple lineups in the last two games where the smallest guy on the floor for us was Andre Dawkins at 6'4".

[Exiled_Devil]

Don't count on it. That strategy is only utilized in closer games for obvious reasons.

I am making my statement on memories of seasons past when the team would practice the stall game even early in the season. IIRC, two years ago we would stall for 4+ minutes in early season blowouts.

I don't expect to never see stall ball, but I think the limit of guards may cause it to be used less for two reasons:
1. Our pass-centered offense needs more time to develop than stall ball typically gives.
2. Bring able to snag offensive rebounds makes the stall ball less of a necessity.

I may be wrong - I think the next few games will show how much stall ball we practice in game time - but the idea of being up double digits and not slowing down is a pleasant one to me.

[Reddevil]

In prior years we had discussions that Duke in particular, and good defenses in general, are designed to deny the two most productive types of shots in college basketball: the three point shot and the layup, at the cost of possibly giving up the mid-range jumper. Overplay on the outside to deny the three makes you vulnerable to the drive, but if you defend the rim well that's acceptable because what you are really giving up are the less productive mid-range jumpers. The knock on Duke for years now is that we are vulnerable to quick guard play (see Villanova) because our guards can get beat. What the real criticism is what came afterward; a failure to deal adequately with the penetrator. I still have bad flashbacks about what happened against Villanova, which I had the misfortune to witness personally. I really like your suggestion: lots of quality size means that our overplay on the perimeter is serving a purpose even if we are beaten off the dribble if what happens is that the driver is funneled into a forest of long arms. Using a lot of zone would seem to be defeatist; I don't like the idea of zone for this Duke team or much generally, particularly if it comes at the cost of reduced perimeter pressure.

I agree with your general premise, but an extended zone with man principles can be used. I'm sure Coach Krzyzewski (nice to see the full name once in a while) remembers the amoeba!

[Jumbo]

I agree with your take regarding zone and rebounding but that's looking at it a little to broadly. Duke plays a different kind of zone, with man-to-man principles mixed in with zone positioning. This leads to less guys simply guarding a place on the floor and more guys finding the man in their designated place on the floor, and sticking with him, especially after a shot goes up. This is one reason why Duke has been able to rebound well out of zone this year, another reason being height advantage at almost every position on the floor. I saw a couple lineups in the last two games where the smallest guy on the floor for us was Andre Dawkins at 6'4".

Duke has also rebounded well out of the zone because they played bad teams without much height. Also, Duke hasn't played much zone anyway.

[oldnavy]

The theory (and truth) is that its much more difficult to rebound out of a zone. And the reasoning is actually pretty simple when you think about it. The most important part of rebounding is boxing out. When you are assigned to a man, it's easy to turn and put a body on him when a shot goes up. But when you are assigned to an area, sometimes you're left scrambling for someone to body-up, and the offensive players have the advantage of sneaking in the gaps to get good positoin before someone gets in the way.
That makes good sense. I guess my reasoning was that since you push the offense out a little with a zone you would be in better position to rebound. I wonder if there are stats on that type of thing.

[Kedsy]

That makes good sense. I guess my reasoning was that since you push the offense out a little with a zone you would be in better position to rebound. I wonder if there are stats on that type of thing.

If you push the offense further out and they take longer shots there are longer rebounds, which sort of the negates the height advantage. Plus on long rebounds it's harder to put a body on the offensive perimeter player because he can see where the ball's bouncing and your back is to the basket. So my guess is even in your situation, Jumbo's statement is accurate.

[airowe]

That makes good sense. I guess my reasoning was that since you push the offense out a little with a zone you would be in better position to rebound. I wonder if there are stats on that type of thing.

Also, you don't push the entire offense out further, just the perimeter.

For stats on how zone affects rebounding, I direct you here:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/teams/stats?teamId=183

[NSDukeFan]

I agree with your general premise, but an extended zone with man principles can be used. I'm sure Coach Krzyzewski (nice to see the full name once in a while) remembers the amoeba!

The best zone defenses do look like man-to-man as you should still be always guarding someone. So, you are correct that if you are playing zone ideally, you will always have someone to box out. The issue is that it is still more difficult to box out in a zone as there are lots of transitions where you temporarily don't have a man or are switching or trying to figure out which man to guard. This makes it more difficult.
The flip side of course is that the best man to man defense looks like a zone (even moreso in K's system with lots of switches) as everyone on the opposite side of the court is in help side, rotating on ball movement. You could make the argument that in this type of man to man, especially where there are lots of switches, that it can sometimes be difficult to find your man to box out as well.
Given the choice, I would always prefer to rebound out of a man to man defense and that is my biggest concern with zone defense.

[Johnboy]

I agree with your take regarding zone and rebounding but that's looking at it a little to broadly. Duke plays a different kind of zone, with man-to-man principles mixed in with zone positioning. This leads to less guys simply guarding a place on the floor and more guys finding the man in their designated place on the floor, and sticking with him, especially after a shot goes up. This is one reason why Duke has been able to rebound well out of zone this year, another reason being height advantage at almost every position on the floor. I saw a couple lineups in the last two games where the smallest guy on the floor for us was Andre Dawkins at 6'4".

Jumbo is absolutely right that it's easier to rebound out of a man defense than a zone, as a general principle. The "different" thing about Duke, under Coach K, isn't about zone, it's about out man defense. Duke's overplaying man to man often leaves defenders out of position to block out. Rebounding is an area that is somewhat compromised in favor of other things like turnovers, fast-break points, and wearing the other team down.

So this will be an interesting thing to watch - will this particular Duke team actually rebound better out of a zone, where presumably there's a 6'10"+ guy under the basket at all times, or with our man defense, where other teams may try to pull our big guys away from the basket? My guess is that (generally) we'll press less and won't pressure the perimeter quite as much, and that our man to man will be a bit less overplaying this year. So it will be interesting to see.

PS - this post may reiterate much of what's already been said - I wrote it during lunch but didn't post it, and just got back to it.

[BlueintheFace]

Wow, I am kind of surprised that my assertion that zone defense hurts our rebounding has caused such a reaction... It is just an established truth of basketball. I figured my assertion that our pressure man-to-man would be better this year than last would cause more controversy. Just goes to show, never underestimate the poignancy of a "zone comment" on a duke board...

[OldSchool]

I agree with the original post and am very optimistic about prospects for success this year both in the regular season and post-season. I love seeing all of the screening by the bigs and the movement without the ball. Also, with our deep stable of big guys, the constant movement and screening should help physically wear down the other team's front court. Shamari Spears, for example, looked completely worn out at the end of the game the other day while I thought our bigs still looked relatively fresh.

In particular, I see a lot of potential in Mason. Let's hope the injury doesn't keep him out too long so as to defer too much of his development into next year.

I think this team is particularly well-suited to match up with teams like UNC, and I am really looking forward to those games.

But here is my concern: Defending against a strong, quick, veteran stud guard who can score in bunches, the likes of a Jack McClinton or Toney Douglas in prior years.

Yes, it helps to help to have bigger guys up front to deal with the penetration.

But if one of our top three guards (Jon, Nolan or Andre) fouls out, we are on a knife's edge at defending that position. And Andre, while I love his attitude and demeanor, as a freshman is just not yet as physically strong or crafty as he will eventually develop into as a defender. And while it's true we have Lance or Kyle to turn to as well, size doesn't necessarily trump quickness on the perimeter.

On the other hand, with better scoring efficiency this year, a guard can go off on us and have a career day and we may still be in a good position to win the game.

[Kedsy]

But here is my concern: Defending against a strong, quick, veteran stud guard who can score in bunches, the likes of a Jack McClinton or Toney Douglas in prior years.

Yes, it helps to help to have bigger guys up front to deal with the penetration.

But if one of our top three guards (Jon, Nolan or Andre) fouls out, we are on a knife's edge at defending that position. And Andre, while I love his attitude and demeanor, as a freshman is just not yet as physically strong or crafty as he will eventually develop into as a defender. And while it's true we have Lance or Kyle to turn to as well, size doesn't necessarily trump quickness on the perimeter.

On the other hand, with better scoring efficiency this year, a guard can go off on us and have a career day and we may still be in a good position to win the game.

I am not as concerned about teams like last year's Miami or Florida State, who had one ultra-quick guard but average quickness everywhere else. I am somewhat worried about teams like this year's Kansas, whose entire team seems to move at an entirely different speed than almost everyone else. Against such a team if our young players or our big players are a little slow to switch or rotate we will be giving up a lot of easy baskets. Still, I don't think there are too many teams like that, and as the season moves along we should get better and better at it, so I feel pretty good overall.

[bird]

Wow, I am kind of surprised that my assertion that zone defense hurts our rebounding has caused such a reaction... It is just an established truth of basketball. I figured my assertion that our pressure man-to-man would be better this year than last would cause more controversy. Just goes to show, never underestimate the poignancy of a "zone comment" on a duke board...

The discussion spans years. Throatybeard's DBR Manifesto 1(t).

[BlueintheFace]

The discussion spans years. Throatybeard's DBR Manifesto 1(t).

yes i know...thanks. I remember this conversation being very heated in the late 90's in particular, but one of my comments was definitely more controversial than the other... weird

[oldnavy]

Also, you don't push the entire offense out further, just the perimeter.

For stats on how zone affects rebounding, I direct you here:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/teams/stats?teamId=183

Interesting.. Syracuse plays primarily a zone and they averaged 39.6 rpg (08-09), and Duke played primarily man to man and averaged 36.4 rpg (08-09)...

What am I missing?

[pfrduke]

Interesting.. Syracuse plays primarily a zone and they averaged 39.6 rpg (08-09), and Duke played primarily man to man and averaged 36.4 rpg (08-09)...

What am I missing?

This may be a more relevant link.

Syracuse, noted zone team, by rebounding only 64.5% of opponents' misses, ranked 274th in the country (http://kenpom.com/team.php?y=2009&team=Syracuse) in defensive rebounding percentage last season.

Prior years bear this out too - 297th in 2007, 272nd in 2006, 276th in 2005 (a year that they finished 5th in the nation in offensive rebounding, showing that even good rebounders are hampered rebounding out of a zone), and 311th in 2004.

[MarkD83]

In prior years we had discussions that Duke in particular, and good defenses in general, are designed to deny the two most productive types of shots in college basketball: the three point shot and the layup, at the cost of possibly giving up the mid-range jumper. Overplay on the outside to deny the three makes you vulnerable to the drive, but if you defend the rim well that's acceptable because what you are really giving up are the less productive mid-range jumpers. The knock on Duke for years now is that we are vulnerable to quick guard play (see Villanova) because our guards can get beat. What the real criticism is what came afterward; a failure to deal adequately with the penetrator. I still have bad flashbacks about what happened against Villanova, which I had the misfortune to witness personally. I really like your suggestion: lots of quality size means that our overplay on the perimeter is serving a purpose even if we are beaten off the dribble if what happens is that the driver is funneled into a forest of long arms. Using a lot of zone would seem to be defeatist; I don't like the idea of zone for this Duke team or much generally, particularly if it comes at the cost of reduced perimeter pressure.

Don't think of the zone as defeatist. In fact with the two big guys down low in the zone the three perimeter guys can be even more agressive with pressure. If we are in man to man with pressure my fear is the other team does an NBA style offense. Four guys stand on one side of the court and let the best penetrator take his man one on one. If we play essentially man to man on the perimeter and park two big guys in the paint then you can have 5 quick players but they won't get nerar the rim.

[Dukeface88]

And I can't tell you how many times I heard/saw K yell at McClure "shoot the ball!" Clealry, he wants his players to be aggressive offensively. So stop groaning.

Perhaps I didn't express myslf well. We want those guys to shoot. Really, we love it. We just want the shoots to go in when they do. Any groans are expressions of sympathy at the result, not disapproval at the attempt.

[oldnavy]

This may be a more relevant link.

Syracuse, noted zone team, by rebounding only 64.5% of opponents' misses, ranked 274th in the country (http://kenpom.com/team.php?y=2009&team=Syracuse) in defensive rebounding percentage last season.

Prior years bear this out too - 297th in 2007, 272nd in 2006, 276th in 2005 (a year that they finished 5th in the nation in offensive rebounding, showing that even good rebounders are hampered rebounding out of a zone), and 311th in 2004.

See, this is why this board is the best! People here know what the heck they are talking about (almost all the time!).

Thanks for the link, and it does make more sense....

[Jumbo]

This may be a more relevant link.

Syracuse, noted zone team, by rebounding only 64.5% of opponents' misses, ranked 274th in the country (http://kenpom.com/team.php?y=2009&team=Syracuse) in defensive rebounding percentage last season.

Prior years bear this out too - 297th in 2007, 272nd in 2006, 276th in 2005 (a year that they finished 5th in the nation in offensive rebounding, showing that even good rebounders are hampered rebounding out of a zone), and 311th in 2004.

That reminds me. Last year I often referred to offensive rebounding as Duke's "secret weapon." The Pomeroy numbers support that -- Duke finished 32nd in the country with a 37.5 offensive rebound percentage. Our defensive rebounding was not as good. With a bigger team, I'm looking for the D-Reb percentage to increase. The O-Reb may not increase that much, but what I'm looking for are easy baskets off those boards -- tip-ins, dunks, etc -- because of the fact that we have more active bigs who are better finishers than in the past.

[bird]

Don't think of the zone as defeatist. In fact with the two big guys down low in the zone the three perimeter guys can be even more agressive with pressure. If we are in man to man with pressure my fear is the other team does an NBA style offense. Four guys stand on one side of the court and let the best penetrator take his man one on one. If we play essentially man to man on the perimeter and park two big guys in the paint then you can have 5 quick players but they won't get nerar the rim.

Shane Battier played a lot of what amounted to a one-man zone. His mark would be the weakest, not strongest, offensive threat, and he would start in the paint and then run around and make things happen. Battier was, however, unique. Best defensive player ever at Duke? I don't recall a DBR poll on that topic, but he would get my vote. In any event, I am not sure Duke's sucess with the Battier zone is much of a teaching, other than as yet another reflection of K's flexibility in adapting his tactics to talent.