PDA

View Full Version : Friday the 13th . . . all was NOT lost



Kane
11-18-2009, 12:46 AM
Even though Friday the 13th (Barnes) may hurt us, all is NOT lost . . . at least not yet ;-)

Just going strictly by the numbers, Duke has the number 10, 17 and 20 recruit on the court already in this year's freshman class. #10 Mason Plumlee, #17 Kelly and #20 Dawkins (Mason won the dunk contest and Kelly won the 3 pt shooting contest in the McDonald's H.S. All American game so they are both really good players). UNC has only one of the top 20 in this year's freshman class. (Whether their So, Jr. and Sr. class of players match their hype remains to be seen)

Next year (http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/espnu100?&season=2010&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fespnu100%3f%26season%3d2 010)UNC has #s 1, 13 and 19 players coming in as freshmen, while Duke has #6 (who some consider #1) and #27 coming into that freshman class. (While this by any measure is NOT good, let's NOT forget that UNC is known for FLOPS like King Rice . . . #1 recruit that sucked!)

The following year (http://http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/espnu100?&season=2011&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fespnu100%3f%26season%3d2 011), UNC has the #3 and #12 players, but two things McAdoo the #3 is ranked low by some scouts #13 in one report I saw and there is a chance we may get the #2 Rivers by stealing him from FL (that class is too far off right now to be too concerned about)

Strictly by the numbers all is far from lost. We have the better coach by far and consider that the last 4 years were severly tilted by the fact that no team in the NBA wanting a clod like Hansborough. With him out of the picture, it would have been much different even though UNC has won 7 out of the last 9 meetings which is absolutely HORRIBLE!!!!!!

I do think however that the time has come to take off our dark blue colored glasses and question how Roy Williams comes in at the last minute and steals a recruit (Barnes) that has been in the Dule fold for a couple of years? I think it's time to question whether Coach K coaching the Olympic team is a plus or a minus? And finally I think we Duke fans must man-up and admit that the glow of Duke basketball has been greatly tarnished by 2 national championships in C.H. in just 5 years and getting out recruited year after year is making things any brighter.

Talent wins 99.9% of the time, no matter who is coaching . . .

Kedsy
11-18-2009, 01:16 AM
Even though Friday the 13th (Barnes) may hurt us, all is NOT lost . . . at least not yet ;-)

Just going strictly by the numbers, Duke has the number 10, 17 and 20 recruit on the court already in this year's freshman class. #10 Mason Plumlee, #17 Kelly and #20 Dawkins (Mason won the dunk contest and Kelly won the 3 pt shooting contest in the McDonald's H.S. All American game so they are both really good players). UNC has only one of the top 20 in this year's freshman class. (Whether their So, Jr. and Sr. class of players match their hype remains to be seen)

Next year (http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/espnu100?&season=2010&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fespnu100%3f%26season%3d2 010)UNC has #s 1, 13 and 19 players coming in as freshmen, while Duke has #6 (who some consider #1) and #27 coming into that freshman class. (While this by any measure is NOT good, let's NOT forget that UNC is known for FLOPS like King Rice . . . #1 recruit that sucked!)

The following year (http://http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/espnu100?&season=2011&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fespnu100%3f%26season%3d2 011), UNC has the #3 and #12 players, but two things McAdoo the #3 is ranked low by some scouts #13 in one report I saw and there is a chance we may get the #2 Rivers by stealing him from FL (that class is too far off right now to be too concerned about)

Strictly by the numbers all is far from lost. We have the better coach by far and consider that the last 4 years were severly tilted by the fact that no team in the NBA wanting a clod like Hansborough. With him out of the picture, it would have been much different even though UNC has won 7 out of the last 9 meetings which is absolutely HORRIBLE!!!!!!

I do think however that the time has come to take off our dark blue colored glasses and question how Roy Williams comes in at the last minute and steals a recruit (Barnes) that has been in the Dule fold for a couple of years? I think it's time to question whether Coach K coaching the Olympic team is a plus or a minus? And finally I think we Duke fans must man-up and admit that the glow of Duke basketball has been greatly tarnished by 2 national championships in C.H. in just 5 years and getting out recruited year after year is making things any brighter.

Talent wins 99.9% of the time, no matter who is coaching . . .

Who wants to take this one? Anyone? Anyone?

UrinalCake
11-18-2009, 05:43 AM
Who wants to take this one? Anyone? Anyone?

Well, it's early but I'll take a stab at some of the low-hanging fruit:

- By "the #6 and #27 recruits" for next year, I assume you're referring to Kyrie Irving and Tyler Thornton. You completely left out Josh Hairston and Seth Curry.

- Assuming that all of UNC's recruits are overrated while all of ours are underrated is pretty optimistic

- Hansbrough was a huge thorn in our side, but he is not the sole reason for their dominance over us. I would actually argue that Lawson was more responsible. Both have done pretty well in the NBA so far.

- This may sound like blasphemy but calling Coach K a better coach than Roy, based on recent results, is somewhat debatable.

- Roy was involved in Barnes's recruitment for almost as long as we were, save for a couple of months. So it's not fair to say that he "stole" him.

- Questioning Coach K's Olympic committment has been an ongoing debate for years now. There are several threads here on DBR devoted to that topic. But I will say that I don't think that it was in any way responsible for us losing Barnes

- "Talent wins 99.9% of the time, no matter who is coaching" - strongly disagree with this. The easy answer is that it takes both, but I would always favor Duke over a more talented team with a lesser coach.

Despite my criticisms of your post, I really like your enthusiasm and agree that we shouldn't take for granted the positive things we have going for us.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-18-2009, 07:17 AM
You've got to like the passion...

oldnavy
11-18-2009, 07:28 AM
Even though Friday the 13th (Barnes) may hurt us, all is NOT lost . . . at least not yet ;-)

Just going strictly by the numbers, Duke has the number 10, 17 and 20 recruit on the court already in this year's freshman class. #10 Mason Plumlee, #17 Kelly and #20 Dawkins (Mason won the dunk contest and Kelly won the 3 pt shooting contest in the McDonald's H.S. All American game so they are both really good players). UNC has only one of the top 20 in this year's freshman class. (Whether their So, Jr. and Sr. class of players match their hype remains to be seen)

Next year (http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/espnu100?&season=2010&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fespnu100%3f%26season%3d2 010)UNC has #s 1, 13 and 19 players coming in as freshmen, while Duke has #6 (who some consider #1) and #27 coming into that freshman class. (While this by any measure is NOT good, let's NOT forget that UNC is known for FLOPS like King Rice . . . #1 recruit that sucked!)

The following year (http://http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/espnu100?&season=2011&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fespnu100%3f%26season%3d2 011), UNC has the #3 and #12 players, but two things McAdoo the #3 is ranked low by some scouts #13 in one report I saw and there is a chance we may get the #2 Rivers by stealing him from FL (that class is too far off right now to be too concerned about)

Strictly by the numbers all is far from lost. We have the better coach by far and consider that the last 4 years were severly tilted by the fact that no team in the NBA wanting a clod like Hansborough. With him out of the picture, it would have been much different even though UNC has won 7 out of the last 9 meetings which is absolutely HORRIBLE!!!!!!

I do think however that the time has come to take off our dark blue colored glasses and question how Roy Williams comes in at the last minute and steals a recruit (Barnes) that has been in the Dule fold for a couple of years? I think it's time to question whether Coach K coaching the Olympic team is a plus or a minus? And finally I think we Duke fans must man-up and admit that the glow of Duke basketball has been greatly tarnished by 2 national championships in C.H. in just 5 years and getting out recruited year after year is making things any brighter.

Talent wins 99.9% of the time, no matter who is coaching . . .

I agree that most of the time King Rice was an average player, however, King Rice played two good games a year, they were both against DUKE!

Hansblah, while an outstanding player was not the primary reason for UNC's "recent" success over us, that would be Ty Lawson.

Talent does not win games alone. The talent has to play the game as a team and that takes good coaching. There are many, many examples of were more talented teams lost in games by being out coached, (UNLV 91') or had underachieving years (GT last few years). And those two example came BC (before caffeine).

kong123
11-18-2009, 07:44 AM
Anyone else afraid that if Nolan plays at last nights level throughout the entire year- that he may follow Kyle to the NBA in May?

flyingdutchdevil
11-18-2009, 07:52 AM
Anyone else afraid that if Nolan plays at last nights level throughout the entire year- that he may follow Kyle to the NBA in May?

Why would I be afraid? I hope that he plays like that every game. And if he does, let him go to the NBA. Hell - it's his decision and with play like that, he deserves to go.

rotogod00
11-18-2009, 08:34 AM
Even though Friday the 13th (Barnes) may hurt us, all is NOT lost . . . at least not yet ;-)

Just going strictly by the numbers, Duke has the number 10, 17 and 20 recruit on the court already in this year's freshman class. #10 Mason Plumlee, #17 Kelly and #20 Dawkins (Mason won the dunk contest and Kelly won the 3 pt shooting contest in the McDonald's H.S. All American game so they are both really good players). UNC has only one of the top 20 in this year's freshman class. (Whether their So, Jr. and Sr. class of players match their hype remains to be seen)

Next year (http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/espnu100?&season=2010&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fespnu100%3f%26season%3d2 010)UNC has #s 1, 13 and 19 players coming in as freshmen, while Duke has #6 (who some consider #1) and #27 coming into that freshman class. (While this by any measure is NOT good, let's NOT forget that UNC is known for FLOPS like King Rice . . . #1 recruit that sucked!)

The following year (http://http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/espnu100?&season=2011&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fespnu100%3f%26season%3d2 011), UNC has the #3 and #12 players, but two things McAdoo the #3 is ranked low by some scouts #13 in one report I saw and there is a chance we may get the #2 Rivers by stealing him from FL (that class is too far off right now to be too concerned about)

Strictly by the numbers all is far from lost. We have the better coach by far and consider that the last 4 years were severly tilted by the fact that no team in the NBA wanting a clod like Hansborough. With him out of the picture, it would have been much different even though UNC has won 7 out of the last 9 meetings which is absolutely HORRIBLE!!!!!!

I do think however that the time has come to take off our dark blue colored glasses and question how Roy Williams comes in at the last minute and steals a recruit (Barnes) that has been in the Dule fold for a couple of years? I think it's time to question whether Coach K coaching the Olympic team is a plus or a minus? And finally I think we Duke fans must man-up and admit that the glow of Duke basketball has been greatly tarnished by 2 national championships in C.H. in just 5 years and getting out recruited year after year is making things any brighter.

Talent wins 99.9% of the time, no matter who is coaching . . .

tell that to harold minor and tim legler

Devilsfan
11-18-2009, 08:41 AM
We need a victory because it's starting to remind me of the dreaded JCS, John Cooper Syndrome (tOSU former football coach that won everything except against Mich.).

ScreechTDX1847
11-18-2009, 09:28 AM
Why would I be afraid? I hope that he plays like that every game. And if he does, let him go to the NBA. Hell - it's his decision and with play like that, he deserves to go.

Ditto. However, Nolan has been cited several times as saying he wants a Duke degree. Additionally, I believe on that webcast he said that he would have gone to K State with Beasley if he didn't want a degree.

freshmanjs
11-18-2009, 09:32 AM
Ditto. However, Nolan has been cited several times as saying he wants a Duke degree. Additionally, I believe on that webcast he said that he would have gone to K State with Beasley if he didn't want a degree.

If he wants a degree from Duke, he will get one. That is completely independent of his decision to return for a senior season or head to nba.

HCheek37
11-18-2009, 09:32 AM
wow this is a fresh interesting discussion

'coach k's recruiting falls apart due to Olympic commitments" :rolleyes:

/thread

sagegrouse
11-18-2009, 09:39 AM
Anyone else afraid that if Nolan plays at last nights level throughout the entire year- that he may follow Kyle to the NBA in May?

This is a fan syndrome known as "every silver lining has a cloud."

Don't worry about it. If Scheyer, Singler and Smith are the three best players in the country this season, you and I can live with the consequences.

sagegrouse

superdave
11-18-2009, 09:52 AM
If Nolan averages 20 ppg game this year and goes pro, I'll be a happy guy. That will mean we went to a Final Four, beat unc twice and had a shot at a Title. He will have earned our respect and well-wishes.

EDIT: Sweet, I'm Shane Battier! A minute ago I was Jimmy Spanarkel.

RoyalBlue08
11-18-2009, 09:54 AM
Anyone else afraid that if Nolan plays at last nights level throughout the entire year- that he may follow Kyle to the NBA in May?
I'm not too worried about Nolan leaving early. I don't know if he really has a position in the NBA to make him a high pick. He is undersized for the 2 and doesn't seem to have the skill set for the 1.

airowe
11-18-2009, 10:17 AM
I'm going to leave the OP out of this.

I'm also going to go out on a limb here (not very far IMO) and say that Kyle Singler and Nolan Smith will be in the NBA draft the same year as Harrison Barnes and John Henson.

It's time to stop thinking of Barnes as a recruit who Duke had in the fold and start thinking of him as a Tarhole. I hate him as much, if not more, than any other player donning the sissy blue.

Kane
11-18-2009, 10:18 AM
I left out Tyler Thornton and Seth Curry . . . Thornton in not even listed in the top 100 recruits by ESPN . . . he's No. 20 at his position . . . and Curry was 35 at his position and NOT listed in the top 100 I would assume.

Kane
11-18-2009, 10:29 AM
I also neglected to mention that UNC has So. players #7, 11 and 29 and since we lost Williams, who BTW had a monster game for Memphis last night, we only have #s 47 and 87 in our So. class . . . that pretty much sucks big wind (http://http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/espnu100?&season=2008&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fespnu100%3f%26season%3d2 008). . . basically we ended up with two "projects"

COYS
11-18-2009, 10:29 AM
I left out Tyler Thornton and Seth Curry . . . Thornton in not even listed in the top 100 recruits by ESPN . . . he's No. 20 at his position . . . and Curry was 35 at his position and NOT listed in the top 100 I would assume.

Curry WAS 35 at his position, but after his freshman year at Liberty I think it's pretty safe to say that he was underrated. While I'm not sure I agree with all the initial points, I have to agree that our recruiting class looks very good next year if you include Curry. Adding Barnes would have made it stellar, but Irving is already a game-changer. Hairston will be very good. Thornton gives us great depth and defensive prowess. Curry can flat out score when he gets going. And if we happen to add Smith, then I think the class will be very close to being stellar. Either way, with the talent we've recruited and the talent we will have returning, even without Singler, we have the potential to be very, very good for many years.

Memphis Devil
11-18-2009, 10:30 AM
Anyone else afraid that if Nolan plays at last nights level throughout the entire year- that he may follow Kyle to the NBA in May?

I Nolan plays all year like he did last night, we will be spending June picking out fabric for a new Final Four banner and possibly a National Championship banner as well! :D

feldspar
11-18-2009, 10:48 AM
Anyone else afraid that if Nolan plays at last nights level throughout the entire year- that he may follow Kyle to the NBA in May?

If Nolan averages 20+ points the entire season, bye bye.

That being said, he won't.

sagegrouse
11-18-2009, 10:54 AM
Even though Friday the 13th (Barnes) may hurt us, all is NOT lost . . . at least not yet ;-)

Strictly by the numbers all is far from lost. We have the better coach by far and consider that the last 4 years were severly tilted by the fact that no team in the NBA wanting a clod like Hansborough. With him out of the picture, it would have been much different even though UNC has won 7 out of the last 9 meetings which is absolutely HORRIBLE!!!!!!

I agree with your last two words.


I do think however that the time has come to take off our dark blue colored glasses and question how Roy Williams comes in at the last minute and steals a recruit (Barnes) that has been in the Dule fold for a couple of years?

This has been done in spades, so I am not sure what original is left to be said except for the motive behind the photo taken in a UNC jersey the night of K's visit. I mean, is Harrison Barnes a snake in all of this?


I think it's time to question whether Coach K coaching the Olympic team is a plus or a minus?

Again, this is not a new subject. Most of us have tried to make a virtue out of a necessity, in that Coach K is going to continue as an Olympic coach, and we might as well make the best of it.


And finally I think we Duke fans must man-up and admit that the glow of Duke basketball has been greatly tarnished by 2 national championships in C.H. in just 5 years and getting out recruited year after year is making things any brighter.

I don't admit anything of the sort. The Duke program would have the same glow as ever if Duke had a couple of FF's and a NC in the past five years, regardless of what UNC did. As it stands, Duke has won 75% of its games in all but one of the last 12 years, averaged nearly 13 ACC wins per season and won the ACC championship eight times in the past 11 years. To me, what tarnishes the program is 13-18 (2-14 in ACC) as in 1995, 11-17 (3-11) in 1983 and 10-17 (4-10) in 1982.

WRT to being "outrecruited year after year," I thought your figures suggested the opposite. But no matter, in any post I make over one paragraph, I am also likely to say something contradictory.


Talent wins 99.9% of the time, no matter who is coaching . . .

Boy, do I disagree with the 99.5% applied to anything in college hoops, given that basketball is a game with a few hundred random events -- shots, rebounds, passes -- that can produce unexpected results.

But really, don't you agree that, for example, the Duke defense, which our recruits didn't bring with them to Duke, has produced a ton of victories?

sagegrouse

NSDukeFan
11-18-2009, 11:37 AM
we only have #s 47 and 87 in our So. class . . . that pretty much sucks big wind [/URL]. . . basically we ended up with two "projects"
Not sure if you have been watching any games yet this year, but one of those projects started a couple of games for us and has a lot of athleticism and size, and the other had a double-double last night and appears to be a very solid option at the 5 for us. And, yes they are still both sophomores. Yes, it would have been nice to have a more heralded recruiting class (by the way, our only one not ranked in the top 10 in the past 6 years, we were 10th), but I expect this class will leave a positive legacy at Duke, even though the most heralded had to leave to be closer to family. I would have to say this doesn't pretty much suck.

Anyone else afraid that if Nolan plays at last nights level throughout the entire year- that he may follow Kyle to the NBA in May?
Not after his first game this year.


Again, this is not a new subject. Most of us have tried to make a virtue out of a necessity, in that Coach K is going to continue as an Olympic coach, and we might as well make the best of it.

I don't admit anything of the sort. ... As it stands, Duke has won 75% of its games in all but one of the last 12 years, averaged nearly 13 ACC wins per season and won the ACC championship eight times in the past 11 years.

Boy, do I disagree with the 99.5% applied to anything in college hoops, given that basketball is a game with a few hundred random events -- shots, rebounds, passes -- that can produce unexpected results.

sagegrouse
I have to agree with your comments here. I wonder if coaching the Olympics has had any positive effect on some of the new offensive and defensive strategies coach K has been using this year?

Kedsy
11-18-2009, 01:23 PM
To me, what tarnishes the program is 13-18 (2-14 in ACC) as in 1995, 11-17 (3-11) in 1983 and 10-17 (4-10) in 1982.

Well, I don't know if a few scattered bad season can "tarnish" a program, but I've been thinking about cycles. Since Coach K's first actual recruiting class started in 1983, the team has had, essentially, three bad seasons -- 1983, 1995, and 2007. The 2007 season was obviously in a totally different class than the other two poor seasons, but still the team in 2007 was clearly a step below almost every year of the K tenure.

So I thought I'd examine how long it took us to "recover" from the first two down seasons to see how our progress since 2007 compares. The answer is each down season was followed by two improving seasons ending with early exits in the NCAAs. It was the third season after where the team finally became a real contender.

post-1982-83 (11-17)
---------------------
1st season (1983-84): 24-10 (7-7 conf); #14 in final AP poll; 3 seed, 2nd round exit (first game because we had a first round bye).

2nd season (1984-85): 23-8 (8-6 conf); #10 in final AP poll; 3 seed, 2nd round exit.

3rd season (1985-86): 37-3 (12-2 conf); #1 in final AP poll; 1 seed, Championship game.


post-1994-95 (13-18)
---------------------
1st season (1995-96): 18-13 (8-8 conf); unranked in final AP poll; 8 seed, 1st round exit.

2nd season (1996-97): 24-9 (12-4 conf); #8 in final AP poll; 2 seed, 2nd round exit.

3rd season (1997-98): 32-4 (15-1 conf); #3 in final AP poll; 1 seed, Final Eight (came within one 2nd half meltdown of the Final Four).


post-2006-07 (22-11)
---------------------
1st season (2007-08): 28-6 (13-3 conf); #9 in final AP poll; 2 seed, 2nd round exit.

2nd season (2008-09): 30-7 (11-5 conf); #6 in final AP poll; 2 seed, 3rd round exit.

3rd season (2009-10): ???


Obviously our two "rebound" seasons were better this time around, but that's probably because the "down" year was so much better than the other two down years. But looking at the above, I'd say we're right on schedule.

Perhaps all the whining for the past two years was just a tad premature?

Carolina_Blue
11-18-2009, 01:31 PM
I Nolan plays all year like he did last night, we will be spending June picking out fabric for a new Final Four banner and possibly a National Championship banner as well! :D


thats gettin a lil ahead of things....I think Duke is underrated this year by the "experts" and I will admit my heels are overrated....I think Kyle Singler is overrated...and I think Nolan Smith is one of the best in the nation...but lets not forget that we return Marcus Ginyard who can shut down the oppositions best offensive threat....leaving yall leaning on Scheyer and Singler....and I think thats a bit risky...im not sold on either one of them

NSDukeFan
11-18-2009, 01:50 PM
thats gettin a lil ahead of things....I think Duke is underrated this year by the "experts" and I will admit my heels are overrated....I think Kyle Singler is overrated...and I think Nolan Smith is one of the best in the nation...but lets not forget that we return Marcus Ginyard who can shut down the oppositions best offensive threat....leaving yall leaning on Scheyer and Singler....and I think thats a bit risky...im not sold on either one of them

After such an impressive performance, perhaps many of us (myself included) are probably getting a bit ahead of ourselves thinking about great possibilities this year. Hopefully, the opposite won't happen after our first poor performance and/or loss.
As far as Singler goes, I personally don't think he is in any way overrated. I believe he is one of the best players in the country, but you are entitled to your opinion. I doubt it will be shared by many on this board. As far as relying on Scheyer and Singler, if Ginyard happened to shut down Smith, I like our chances.

calltheobvious
11-18-2009, 01:53 PM
thats gettin a lil ahead of things....I think Duke is underrated this year by the "experts" and I will admit my heels are overrated....I think Kyle Singler is overrated...and I think Nolan Smith is one of the best in the nation...but lets not forget that we return Marcus Ginyard who can shut down the oppositions best offensive threat....leaving yall leaning on Scheyer and Singler....and I think thats a bit risky...im not sold on either one of them


Three solid-to-very-good years from Scheyer, two very good years from Singler, and two decent-to-solid years + one outstanding game from Smith: these are the bodies of work of the three players you list. And yet you're 'not sold' on Singler or Scheyer, but Nolan is 'one of the best in the nation'?

I'm not sure there's really anywhere to go from here.

kong123
11-18-2009, 02:05 PM
we are really in the same boat as last year. the big 3 have to all have 15+ pt games, each game, in order for us to be considered a final four team. last night we shot over 50% from three, and that simply will not happen every night. it may not happen again this year. sure, we have more depth down low, but until we can get a double double guy down low, we will continue to struggle against the better teams. its all about consistent excellence from our big three and about the rest of the team consistently contributing on the offensive end.

Greg_Newton
11-18-2009, 02:14 PM
thats gettin a lil ahead of things....I think Duke is underrated this year by the "experts" and I will admit my heels are overrated....I think Kyle Singler is overrated...and I think Nolan Smith is one of the best in the nation...but lets not forget that we return Marcus Ginyard who can shut down the oppositions best offensive threat....leaving yall leaning on Scheyer and Singler....and I think thats a bit risky...im not sold on either one of them

Best post ever?:D

No, you're right - Singler is overrated, and can't be counted on... however, Ginyard is a dominant enough that he can be counted on to make one of the "best in the nation" a complete non-factor.

Might want to come with a little substance if you're giong to diss Duke players on a Duke board, buddy...

Kedsy
11-18-2009, 02:18 PM
we are really in the same boat as last year. the big 3 have to all have 15+ pt games, each game, in order for us to be considered a final four team. last night we shot over 50% from three, and that simply will not happen every night. it may not happen again this year. sure, we have more depth down low, but until we can get a double double guy down low, we will continue to struggle against the better teams. its all about consistent excellence from our big three and about the rest of the team consistently contributing on the offensive end.

I entirely disagree with this. Because we've been running a "pro set" for the past couple of years a lot of people seem to think we won't succeed unless we have the elements that tend to succeed in a pro set. As Jumbo pointed out in another thread, we're not doing that this year. We are not stuck relying on 2 or 3 guys for offense.

I also think you'll be surprised how high a percentage we shoot on threes this year -- because it's easier to get into a rhythm when you're shooting in the flow of a motion offense than it is to shoot a standstill three (with defenders flying at you) like you tend to get out of a drive-and-kick. But I also think you'll be surprised to see how well we adapt when the threes aren't falling. This team has a lot of midrange and close-range threats.

uh_no
11-18-2009, 02:22 PM
also

mason didn't win the dunk contest

davekay1971
11-18-2009, 02:25 PM
The level of angst after 3 very good games kills me.

1) Can we appreciate one good game from a player (Nolan) without starting up the anxiety that he's going to go pro?

2) Losing a probable one-and-done recruit, as good as he may turn out to be, does not meaningfully impact the Duke program. Coach K has been here going on 3 decades, and has kept Duke a top tier program since 1986. We have very, very good recruiting classes in place for the next two years. Anyone who thought, for a second, that all may have been lost when Harrison Barnes needs to re-evaluate their thinking.

3) Kong, we are in a very different situation compared to last year. Last year we had an interior of Lance Thomas, Zoubs (with really very little experience due to his injuries), and a deer-in-the-headlights Miles Plumlee. There was NO legitimate inside option. Zoubs is clearly improved over last year, and Miles can't even be compared to the guy we saw last year. Mason, by report, may be an absolute stud right from the get-go. We have a legitimate inside presence to go with one of the best perimeter trios (Smith, Scheyer, Singler) in the nation.

No response is needed for Carolina_Blue's comments. If you aren't sold on Scheyer and Singler yet, you don't know a thing about college basketball.

NSDukeFan
11-18-2009, 02:26 PM
I entirely disagree with this. Because we've been running a "pro set" for the past couple of years a lot of people seem to think we won't succeed unless we have the elements that tend to succeed in a pro set. As Jumbo pointed out in another thread, we're not doing that this year. We are not stuck relying on 2 or 3 guys for offense.

I also think you'll be surprised how high a percentage we shoot on threes this year -- because it's easier to get into a rhythm when you're shooting in the flow of a motion offense than it is to shoot a standstill three (with defenders flying at you) like you tend to get out of a drive-and-kick. But I also think you'll be surprised to see how well we adapt when the threes aren't falling. This team has a lot of midrange and close-range threats.

I agree completely and would add one more time it is easier to shoot threes: when the ball is in the post, the defense is collapsed and the ball is kicked back out. If we continue to use our interior players as scoring options, this should also improve our shooting.

oldnavy
11-18-2009, 02:39 PM
we are really in the same boat as last year. the big 3 have to all have 15+ pt games, each game, in order for us to be considered a final four team. last night we shot over 50% from three, and that simply will not happen every night. it may not happen again this year. sure, we have more depth down low, but until we can get a double double guy down low, we will continue to struggle against the better teams. its all about consistent excellence from our big three and about the rest of the team consistently contributing on the offensive end.

Dude, you are depressing me! I just saw a tremendous game by a group of tremendous players who have the potential to go the distance this year, and you are doom and gloom?? I really hope you can shake it off and enjoy what may be one of the best Duke teams of the decade shaping up... as far as worrying about the future, I like to look at this when I find myself slipping into negativity.... "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matt 6:34 :):)

gumbomoop
11-18-2009, 02:46 PM
thats gettin a lil ahead of things....I think Duke is underrated this year by the "experts" and I will admit my heels are overrated....I think Kyle Singler is overrated...and I think Nolan Smith is one of the best in the nation...but lets not forget that we return Marcus Ginyard who can shut down the oppositions best offensive threat....leaving yall leaning on Scheyer and Singler....and I think thats a bit risky...im not sold on either one of them

Wait, CB. You think Duke is underrated. OK, well Duke was preseason consensus, roughly, 10. So, you agree they're a bit underrated, making them, what, about 7-8 in your view? OK, so if you're not sold on KS and JS, you must think NS is NPOY, for you can't possibly think Duke should be 7-8-ish on the basis of yet-unproven MP1, injured MP2, 2 other frosh, and unspectacular seniors. Or do you imagine OC will average 15/10?

Your (il)logic escapes me, but mostly it's real close to silly - embarrassingly so - to denigrate KS and JS. They're both unusual players: superb while unspectacular..... except when either makes spectacular plays.

Just to be clear, I do think the Heels will be very good by season's end, but are a bit overrated early; seems to me putting them in top 5 preseason was a stretch, despite what promises to be a great frontline. DT is probably a go-to guy, and I'm definitely sold on ED and TZ as real-deals. I suspect the Heels will overcome some, but not all, of their big ?-marks: (1) Can LDII be a reliable PG by late-season? (2) Will MG have to play significant minutes at PG, if DS can't hack it as backup? (3) Will 1 or 2 wings develop reliable 3-pt threat? (4) How long will it take JH to adjust to physicality of college level play?

I do hope you'll rethink your views of KS and JS. Should you refuse, I'll give you this: you've left a written record of sillyness in case you ever need to plead loopyness.

KShip21
11-18-2009, 02:52 PM
thats gettin a lil ahead of things....I think Duke is underrated this year by the "experts" and I will admit my heels are overrated....I think Kyle Singler is overrated...and I think Nolan Smith is one of the best in the nation...but lets not forget that we return Marcus Ginyard who can shut down the oppositions best offensive threat....leaving yall leaning on Scheyer and Singler....and I think thats a bit risky...im not sold on either one of them

Wow!!! This must be one of the "new" tarhole fans. Doesn't sound like you know what you are talking about at all. To quote G. Newton "come with some substance." So the same Kyle Singler who is averaging 20pts, 6 rebs, and 50% from 3, pre- season first team all american, and pre-season ACC player of the year we can't lean on? But you can lean on Ginyard, who until last week hasn't played a game in over a year and has no shot in shutting down our best offensive threat, which is Singler, not Smith. You're not sold on the ACC tourney MVP, a kid averaging double figures for his career and 16 pts and 0 tos per game at pg this season, and one of the smartest players in the league?

SupaDave
11-18-2009, 03:24 PM
Perhaps all the whining for the past two years was just a tad premature?

Or spoiled perhaps?

sagegrouse
11-18-2009, 03:32 PM
but until we can get a double double guy down low, we will continue to struggle against the better teams. its all about consistent excellence from our big three and about the rest of the team consistently contributing on the offensive end.

Miles had 15 pts. and 11 boards in 24 minutes and Zoubs had 9 points and 13 boards in 16 mins. for a combined 24 and 24 in 40 minutes.

Moreover, Mason is reputedly our most skilled big man.

I believe when you refer to the "big three" it's not these guys but S, S and S.

Or maybe I am missing your point....

sgegrouse

Duke Parent 06
11-18-2009, 03:35 PM
The level of angst after 3 very good games kills me.

1) Can we appreciate one good game from a player (Nolan) without starting up the anxiety that he's going to go pro?

2) Losing a probable one-and-done recruit, as good as he may turn out to be, does not meaningfully impact the Duke program. Coach K has been here going on 3 decades, and has kept Duke a top tier program since 1986. We have very, very good recruiting classes in place for the next two years. Anyone who thought, for a second, that all may have been lost when Harrison Barnes needs to re-evaluate their thinking.

3) Kong, we are in a very different situation compared to last year. Last year we had an interior of Lance Thomas, Zoubs (with really very little experience due to his injuries), and a deer-in-the-headlights Miles Plumlee. There was NO legitimate inside option. Zoubs is clearly improved over last year, and Miles can't even be compared to the guy we saw last year. Mason, by report, may be an absolute stud right from the get-go. We have a legitimate inside presence to go with one of the best perimeter trios (Smith, Scheyer, Singler) in the nation.

No response is needed for Carolina_Blue's comments. If you aren't sold on Scheyer and Singler yet, you don't know a thing about college basketball.


I saw last night flashes of the problems we had with Lawson and Villanova: last year: several instances of a fast athletic guard blowing past our bigs for easy layups. I watched the game on TIVO and it was late: Does anybody remember f it tended to happen when we were out of a zone defense?

BlueDevilBaby
11-18-2009, 03:42 PM
This is a fan syndrome known as "every silver lining has a cloud."

Don't worry about it. If Scheyer, Singler and Smith are the three best players in the country this season, you and I can live with the consequences.

sagegrouse

Let's hope the consequences is some hardware. Then they can leave.

NSDukeFan
11-18-2009, 04:07 PM
I saw last night flashes of the problems we had with Lawson and Villanova: last year: several instances of a fast athletic guard blowing past our bigs for easy layups. I watched the game on TIVO and it was late: Does anybody remember f it tended to happen when we were out of a zone defense?

Did you notice that their guards did not beat us much off the dribble and when they did they were shooting over Miles, Zoubs, Kyle and Ryan inside? I liked that most of their baskets came on outside shots with a hand in their face (except for strong inside hoops by their big guy, the ex BC player. He looked solid.)

BlueintheFace
11-18-2009, 04:20 PM
I saw last night flashes of the problems we had with Lawson and Villanova: last year: several instances of a fast athletic guard blowing past our bigs for easy layups. I watched the game on TIVO and it was late: Does anybody remember f it tended to happen when we were out of a zone defense?

Guards getting in the lane off man-to-man is no longer a terrible thing. Seriously. We want to funnel drives right at our big men because... well, they are very big. We have seen this time and time again in the first three games. The real problem is when our bigs all over-commit to one side of the hoop and a crafty guard is able to feed the open weak-side teammate underneath.

I hope I don't have to listen to people complaining about quick guards getting by our wings all season, because to some extent, this is planned for and expected this year. Our defensive strength is at the rim this year.

Additionally, the guards very rarely got to the hoop against us last night.... and especially not in the zone.

Kedsy
11-18-2009, 04:57 PM
Or spoiled perhaps?

Well, yes, I suppose one could phrase it that way. There is certainly a different quality between the comments of those who started following Duke after 1985 and those who were fans before that. There's even a difference between those who started after 1997 and those who suffered through the 1995 debacle. I guess adversity teaches perspective.

SupaDave
11-18-2009, 05:03 PM
Well, yes, I suppose one could phrase it that way. There is certainly a different quality between the comments of those who started following Duke after 1985 and those who were fans before that. There's even a difference between those who started after 1997 and those who suffered through the 1995 debacle. I guess adversity teaches perspective.

I was very much a spectator for the 1995 team and after Coach K took pretty much the very same team the next year and made them successful - I learned to keep my mouth shut.

shoutingncu
11-18-2009, 05:47 PM
I was very much a spectator for the 1995 team and after Coach K took pretty much the very same team the next year and made them successful - I learned to keep my mouth shut.

So you're saying that replacing a Hall of Fame coach can lead to an immediate and drastic reversal of fortune?

oldnavy
11-18-2009, 05:53 PM
So you're saying that replacing a Hall of Fame coach can lead to an immediate and drastic reversal of fortune?

Sure it can. A heel fan should know that better than anyone. Was this a rhetorical question??