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oldnavy
11-15-2009, 04:56 PM
38-31 at half. Would be a lot closer if Valpo could have knocked down a few more of their open looks.

Cameron
11-15-2009, 05:24 PM
What channel is this on? Just in North Carolina, I'm assuming.

kong123
11-15-2009, 05:35 PM
No, its on FoxSportsSouth. Its now a 22 point game. The holes sloppy play in the first half has disappeared in the first 8 minutes of the second half. They scored 38 pts in the first half and they have already scored 27 in the first 8 minutes.

Point guard play is really sloppy for them. Neither Drew or Strickland seem to have a clue how to play on the collegiate level.

oldnavy
11-15-2009, 05:37 PM
Thompson is having a great half, only shot he has missed was a dunk.

I am surprised at how easy Valpo's guards are getting to the rim...

ipatent
11-15-2009, 05:41 PM
38-31 at half. Would be a lot closer if Valpo could have knocked down a few more of their open looks.

Just like their NCAA games last year.

UNC has almost no backcourt scoring this game, and I think it is going to be an issue for them this year. Strickland is not impressing me.

kong123
11-15-2009, 05:41 PM
Valpo is a well coached team. Has anyone seen their upcoming schedule? Their schedule is even tougher than the holes schedule.

RelativeWays
11-16-2009, 08:17 AM
UNC looked pretty terrible in that game, maybe they just didn't care. I think they have another game either tonight or tomorrow. I was actually going to pull for the sheep against UK just because Cal is a slimeball and KY fans are delusional and arrogant. Obviously recent events have changed my feelings on that and I hope UK lights them up like a gaudy mall Christmas Tree.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-16-2009, 08:49 AM
UNC looked bad in in stretches against Valpo, no doubt. But we need to look at who Roy had on the floor when they played their worst. He's trying to develop depth. It was not their starting 5, it was freshmen bigs playing against small quick guards that were playing very well (Woods and McPhearson) that highlighted the problem stopping their dribble penetration.

At the beginning of the second half, when the starters came out focused, they dominated, then they eased up and began subbing, (which really made Roy mad, as it should) and Valpo shot lights out. Got to give the guard play for Valpo some credit.

Henson is not ready for prime time, I don't care how much hype he had. Neither is Strickland or McDonald. They are both super talented, but like Freshmen often do, they are struggling with the speed and size of the college game.

The Wear boys are looking more comfortable than those three, and one of them, (I can't keep them straight), likely will get off the bench first. They are going to be very good 4 year players for UNC.

Zeller is coming on guys...

Deon is playing at an All-ACC level, and not that far from All American consideration if he keeps it up.

moonpie23
11-16-2009, 08:51 AM
I was actually going to pull for the sheep



that's just not an option for me.......ever...

oldnavy
11-16-2009, 01:47 PM
UNC looked bad in in stretches against Valpo, no doubt. But we need to look at who Roy had on the floor when they played their worst. He's trying to develop depth. It was not their starting 5, it was freshmen bigs playing against small quick guards that were playing very well (Woods and McPhearson) that highlighted the problem stopping their dribble penetration.

At the beginning of the second half, when the starters came out focused, they dominated, then they eased up and began subbing, (which really made Roy mad, as it should) and Valpo shot lights out. Got to give the guard play for Valpo some credit.

Henson is not ready for prime time, I don't care how much hype he had. Neither is Strickland or McDonald. They are both super talented, but like Freshmen often do, they are struggling with the speed and size of the college game.

The Wear boys are looking more comfortable than those three, and one of them, (I can't keep them straight), likely will get off the bench first. They are going to be very good 4 year players for UNC.

Zeller is coming on guys...

Deon is playing at an All-ACC level, and not that far from All American consideration if he keeps it up.

I think you are missing the point. No one is saying that UNC is horrible, they are not. The issue is that they were ranked as high as #4 in the country, and that was just wrong.

Valpo's guards were getting into the lane with just about every lineup UNC had on the floor. Drew II, Strickland, and McDonald all had trouble with them, plus there wasn't very good rotation over by the bigs to help out. I think that Roy will be getting mad a lot this year...

InSpades
11-16-2009, 01:56 PM
If Duke started the season with a 16 point win over FIU (who then proceeded to lose their next 2 by an average of 30 to Monmouth and Tulsa) and an 11 point win over Valpo I think a panic would set in over these forums. I know it's just a few games but it has been a very unspectacular start to the season for UNC. We will know more on thursday but I am looking forward to it somewhat optimistically :).

Battierfan01
11-16-2009, 02:31 PM
I think you are missing the point. No one is saying that UNC is horrible, they are not. The issue is that they were ranked as high as #4 in the country, and that was just wrong.


I totally agree with you. I have said from day one that UNC is in no way a top five team and I am starting to believe that at this point they are not a top ten team. While they have a lot of talent most of these players are unproven at the college level at this point. I think that a lot of their preseason hype comes from them being the defending National Champs. The game Thursday against Ohio State will be a true test for this team and will give us a better idea of what they have this year.

sandinmyshoes
11-16-2009, 03:00 PM
I'm not falling for it. I dont' care if they go 3-5 over the next eight games of their schedule (a possibility) I'm not going to sleep on them. Just too much talent.

If Williams had wanted to beat Valpo by 30, he could have, but at the expense of honing his younger players.

All that said, a lot of their talent is redundant. That makes them able to overcome some injuries as the season progress, and to give some banged up guys a rest, but you can put only five players on the court at a time and they can't all be post up guys.

I also suspect that Williams will rein in some of that aggressive defense. Valpo kept luring those big guys further and further out and then driving. A more sagging man-to-man would have stopped that.

I also think that this is an excellent year for Coach K to decide on more zone. UNC has faced a lot of zone so far, but none so big as ours will be. It'll be a lot more difficult for them to shoot over our guys in the gaps than with these teams they've faced so far.

But still, they'll continue to develop and get better, so I'm not going to overlook their potential as January rolls around.

jws
11-16-2009, 03:09 PM
I think you are missing the point. No one is saying that UNC is horrible, they are not. The issue is that they were ranked as high as #4 in the country, and that was just wrong.

Valpo's guards were getting into the lane with just about every lineup UNC had on the floor. Drew II, Strickland, and McDonald all had trouble with them, plus there wasn't very good rotation over by the bigs to help out. I think that Roy will be getting mad a lot this year...

No question UNC is ranked far too high to start the season. I suppose our recent success is at least part of the reason for the wildly overblown expectations, as is the much ballyhooed talent of the frosh, but we have a lot of question marks and a lot of weaknesses that many seem to be overlooking. I would have put us somewhere around #15 preseason, and would probably have dropped them a few spots since then.

There is no surer way to get yourself beat than to allow dribble penetration down the middle. It makes help defense extremely difficult and gives the dribbler the entire floor to operate and both sides of the court to find open teammates. It simply cannot be allowed.

sagegrouse
11-16-2009, 03:13 PM
No question UNC is ranked far too high to start the season. I suppose our recent success is at least part of the reason for the wildly overblown expectations, as is the much ballyhooed talent of the frosh, but we have a lot of question marks and a lot of weaknesses that many seem to be overlooking. I would have put us somewhere around #15 preseason, and would probably have dropped them a few spots since then.


I believe that the defending national champion gets a huge "benefit of the doubt" in the preseason polls. I mean, no one really has a basis for ranking most teams (except, I suppose, those returning all their players and adding little new talent) until they actually play games.

Not worth fretting over from either the UNC or the Duke perspective.

sagegrouse

NSDukeFan
11-16-2009, 03:23 PM
I believe that the defending national champion gets a huge "benefit of the doubt" in the preseason polls. I mean, no one really has a basis for ranking most teams (except, I suppose, those returning all their players and adding little new talent) until they actually play games.

Not worth fretting over from either the UNC or the Duke perspective.

sagegrouse

I also expect there will be major changes in the rankings and wouldn't be surprised to see UNC take a dip in the polls. I think the pre-season polls are often done as a predictor of the end of the year and how teams will finish. It seems to me Michigan State often seems to finish better than they start and I wouldn't be surprised to see Kentucky and UNC do the same this year, due to great talent but a lot of inexperience.

BlueintheFace
11-16-2009, 03:35 PM
I've been debating this in my head for quite awhile now, but after seeing Carolina a time or two I think I finally feel comfortable that my instincts could be right.... Carolina will face the very real possibility of not finishing in the top2 of the ACC this season. They could drop as low as 4th.

This team will obviously be much better by the end of the year, but when the grueling ACC schedule gets going, I don't see enough experience or a legitimate closer that would make me think they could win the ACC at all. They WILL struggle.

Toss in deficiencies in FT shooting and Three Point shooting, I just don't see it.

oldnavy
11-16-2009, 03:48 PM
I'm not falling for it. I dont' care if they go 3-5 over the next eight games of their schedule (a possibility) I'm not going to sleep on them. Just too much talent.

If Williams had wanted to beat Valpo by 30, he could have, but at the expense of honing his younger players.

All that said, a lot of their talent is redundant. That makes them able to overcome some injuries as the season progress, and to give some banged up guys a rest, but you can put only five players on the court at a time and they can't all be post up guys.

I also suspect that Williams will rein in some of that aggressive defense. Valpo kept luring those big guys further and further out and then driving. A more sagging man-to-man would have stopped that.

I also think that this is an excellent year for Coach K to decide on more zone. UNC has faced a lot of zone so far, but none so big as ours will be. It'll be a lot more difficult for them to shoot over our guys in the gaps than with these teams they've faced so far.

But still, they'll continue to develop and get better, so I'm not going to overlook their potential as January rolls around.

I don't think Williams/UNC could have beaten them by 30 points. Williams was doing what he always does, rotate players in and out. He was not "experimenting". I just do not think this team is as formidable as a lot of people think, but we will soon find out...

airowe
11-16-2009, 03:58 PM
9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F

If any team deserves the Overrated chant, this year's PUNCs are it.

There will be more than one airball chant when Henson is shooting free throws.

Marcus Ginyard deserves everything he gets from the Crazies this year.

9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F9F

Wheat/"/"/"
11-16-2009, 04:03 PM
If Williams had wanted to beat Valpo by 30, he could have, but at the expense of honing his younger players.

...But still, they'll continue to develop and get better, so I'm not going to overlook their potential as January rolls around.

I agree with this. And it's a a recurring theme with UNC teams that they often play down to the level of the competition, which drives me nuts, but unfortunately that's just the way it often is.

Those two little guards for Valpo played a heck of a game. They hit a lot of tough shots. They weren't just sitting out there flatfooted bombing away. In fact, I'd feel comfortable saying they would have taken Scheyer and Singlar off the dribble too. They deserve our respect for how they played.

There will be growing pains as we go along, but this is a good team. I think the point that pre-season rankings assumed a little better play from the freshmen is correct.

IMO, there are not ten teams out there that would be favored by Vegas over UNC if they played tonight.

Duvall
11-16-2009, 04:06 PM
IMO, there are not ten teams out there that would be favored by Vegas over UNC if they played tonight.

Well, yeah. The Heels are very popular, and there will always be people willing to bet with the hearts rather than their heads.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-16-2009, 04:09 PM
Toss in deficiencies in FT shooting and Three Point shooting, I just don't see it.

I worry more about the free throws myself than anything else...

Wheat/"/"/"
11-16-2009, 04:27 PM
Well, yeah. The Heels are very popular, and there will always be people willing to bet with the hearts rather than their heads.

I don't think the odds makers ever use their hearts...if they even have one...when they set the point spreads.

What I'm saying is there are not ten teams out there that Vegas would favor in a game tonight by X points over the Heels.

IMO, that makes them a top ten team...assuming of course I am correct :)

jws
11-16-2009, 04:28 PM
IMO, there are not ten teams out there that would be favored by Vegas over UNC if they played tonight.

Not sure what difference that makes, but having seen us play and having seen our weaknesses and the trouble some of the youngsters are having learning the offense and the defense, there are more than ten teams I'd give a better than 50/50 shot at beating us on a neutral court if we played right now.

Hopefully, that will not be the case come march.

airowe
11-16-2009, 04:30 PM
I don't think the odds makers ever use their hearts...if they even have one...when they set the point spreads.

What I'm saying is there are not ten teams out there that Vegas would favor in a game tonight by X points over the Heels.

IMO, that makes them a top ten team...assuming of course I am correct :)

It's not that they set the spreads with their hearts. They set them to take advantage of inflated (or deflated) public opinion of a certain team.

Where do you think the public opinion of the Holes lies right now?

Kedsy
11-16-2009, 04:50 PM
I don't think the odds makers ever use their hearts...if they even have one...when they set the point spreads.

They set the point spreads in an effort to get 50% of the people to bet on either side. If that happens it's no risk to the oddsmaker, who will simply make a 10% profit on every transaction. If more people bet one side than the other then the oddsmaker is at risk if the majority is correct.

The point being that the Las Vegas odds do not necessarily reflect what will or should happen, but rather what the betting public thinks will or should happen. Hence the reference to (the bettors') hearts.

sandinmyshoes
11-16-2009, 05:36 PM
I don't think Williams/UNC could have beaten them by 30 points. Williams was doing what he always does, rotate players in and out. He was not "experimenting". I just do not think this team is as formidable as a lot of people think, but we will soon find out...

Yes, he was doing what he always does in running players in and out. He does that especially early in the season. I noticed that the rotation gets tighter as the ACC begins and even tighter as the NCAA tourney progresses.

But all that is beside the point. He obviously didn't want to beat Valpo by thirty, at least not more than he wanted to continue giving his younger guys experience.

Since their starters opened up a decent lead at the beginning of the first half, and then pushed it out to about 25 to start the second half, I think that if Williams had wanted to, he could have gotten a thirty point
win.

I agree that UNC is not a top ten team at this time, but I am not going to be lulled into thinking they are not going to be strong team by January, and a possible Final Four team by March if everything falls into place for them.

It would be interesting to look back at what everyone on this board was saying this point of the season last year, about a team that had an very dominating run in the NCAA to win the title. I remember all the predictions of poor perimeter shooting, bad chemistry and so forth. Nope, I'm not falling for it this year. Not going to do it!

One of my pet peeves is when our fans down play UNC's potential, and then when things turn out like they did last year they start blaming Coach K's recruiting or distribution of minutes, or even turn on the players (not so much on this board) instead of realizing that it was their own royal blue glasses that betrayed them.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-16-2009, 07:34 PM
They set the point spreads in an effort to get 50% of the people to bet on either side. If that happens it's no risk to the oddsmaker, who will simply make a 10% profit on every transaction. If more people bet one side than the other then the oddsmaker is at risk if the majority is correct.

The point being that the Las Vegas odds do not necessarily reflect what will or should happen, but rather what the betting public thinks will or should happen. Hence the reference to (the bettors') hearts.

I know it's alll subjective, but I'm curious, who wants to give me ten teams that you think would be favored in a match up tonight with the Heels on a neutral court?

One thing I don't think people are giving enough weight to when evaluating the Heels to this point is how many players Roy has played, how much, and who played with who.

It matters.

The season is a marathon, not a sprint, and Roy knows it. What purpose would be served by blowing out weaker, early season teams and not letting these young kids see the floor and learn their weaknesses?.

I expect the rotation to start narrowing, at least in number of minutes played, if not number of players, as we move along.

For instance, I'd bet that against OSU on Thursday, it is unlikely that there will be any point in the game that two of these three will not be on the floor together..Deon, Davis, Zeller.

Against Valpo, he played 9 players at least double digit minutes, two more over 8 ,and one 6 minutes.

That's the entire roster playing substantial time, with the exception of walk ons.

It's very hard to get any sort of comfort level on the court that way.

Once again, Valpo's guards played very well too. Those kids were quick, aggressive and made some shots.

I'm not trying to make excuses here for the poor execution on both ends of the floor we saw at times, just trying to provide some perspective to think about.

Indoor66
11-16-2009, 07:54 PM
I know it's alll subjective, but I'm curious, who wants to give me ten teams that you think would be favored in a match up tonight with the Heels on a neutral court?

One thing I don't think people are giving enough weight to when evaluating the Heels to this point is how many players Roy has played, how much, and who played with who.

It matters.

The season is a marathon, not a sprint, and Roy knows it. What purpose would be served by blowing out weaker, early season teams and not letting these young kids see the floor and learn their weaknesses?.

I expect the rotation to start narrowing, at least in number of minutes played, if not number of players, as we move along.

For instance, I'd bet that against OSU on Thursday, it is unlikely that there will be any point in the game that two of these three will not be on the floor together..Deon, Davis, Zeller.

Against Valpo, he played 9 players at least double digit minutes, two more over 8 ,and one 6 minutes.

That's the entire roster playing substantial time, with the exception of walk ons.

It's very hard to get any sort of comfort level on the court that way.

Once again, Valpo's guards played very well too. Those kids were quick, aggressive and made some shots.

I'm not trying to make excuses here for the poor execution on both ends of the floor we saw at times, just trying to provide some perspective to think about.

Wheat, I love you buddy, but I don't care enough about the crew from the dump on the hump to spend that much time thinking about 10 teams to match up with the sheep.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-16-2009, 08:13 PM
Wheat, I love you buddy, but I don't care enough about the crew from the dump on the hump to spend that much time thinking about 10 teams to match up with the sheep.

Fair enough...sort of proves my point that they wouldn't come easy, even for a high powered Duke brain :)

chrisM
11-17-2009, 12:25 AM
If Duke started the season with a 16 point win over FIU (who then proceeded to lose their next 2 by an average of 30 to Monmouth and Tulsa) and an 11 point win over Valpo I think a panic would set in over these forums.

At this point, honestly, I think that most UNC fans don't care that much. Two championships in five years has gotten them past worrying about this particular team. Or at least, that's what the UNC fans around me are like.

Chris