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Newton_14
11-14-2009, 06:51 PM
Monday night in Cameron Duke takes on Coastal Carolina in a 1st round game of the Preseason NIT. Nolan and Mason are out, Jordan will be back.

CC has some size and they are coming off a win against the College of Charleston. Charleston is picked to win their league.

CC has 3 6'7 guys and 1 6'8. They do have a kid that is 6'10 but he only played 4 minutes in their opener.

6'5 Sr Forward Joseph Harris lead the way against Charleston with 21 points and 17 boards. He was supported by 6'7 Chad Gay with 17 points, and 6'2 G Dexter Moore with 10 points.

Should be a good test for our shorthanded team. We will need to execute like we did Friday night, rebound well and D up. I would expect Lance to draw the defensive assignment against Harris and at times Moore.

Should be a win but will have to play hard and earn it.

MarkD83
11-15-2009, 08:33 AM
There were too many recruiting posts at the top of the board so I needed to put something here so we can regain our focus.

Each new season in college basketball is always fun because the roster always changes and you never know what you have until they are on the court.

I have tickets to the games Monday and Tuesday so I get to see first hand how good the freshman are and how much the other players have improved. I also get to see how much different the team is with and without Nolan.

Olympic Fan
11-15-2009, 10:49 AM
And, of course, the coach at CC is the familiar Cliff Ellis, who coached at Clemson from 1985 to 1994. He had them in the NCAA Tournament three times in that span, including the famous 1990 loss to UConn at Tate George in the Sweet 16 (the game before Duke edged UConn on Laettner's first game-winning NCAA shot). He also had six NIT teams.

Ellis also won Clemson its first (and still only) basketball championship since 1939, when he guided the Tigers to the 1990 ACC regular season championship. In fact, he's the only reason there IS an ACC regular season championship. Until 1990, the league merely recognized the team with the best regular season record as the first-place finisher in the regular season.

But since Clemson had never won anything -- and all the fellow ACC coaches liked Cliff -- they voted that spring to officially recognize Clemson and every subsiquent first-place winner as the "ACC regular season champion." (you have to put the words regular season in there ... if you just as ACC champion, you're talking about the tournament winner, which is still the official league championship team).

Clemson was even given a trophy for its 1990 accomplishment -- the only regular season champion to get one of those.

Let's see, Cliff was 3-18 against Duke during his tenure at Clemson with all three wins coming in Littlejohn. He brings an 0-10 record in Cameron into Monday night's game.

PS Cliff Ellis loves beach music. He even recorded an album of shag classics. Maybe the pep band or the Crazies could serenade him with a chorus of "I Love Beach Music"

Bob Green
11-15-2009, 03:38 PM
I have tickets to the games Monday and Tuesday so I get to see first hand how good the freshman are and how much the other players have improved. I also get to see how much different the team is with and without Nolan.

Please post a detailed analysis on Wednesday. I always enjoy reading first hand observations from the various posters and I'm sure the rest of the board would appreciate you sharing your thoughts as well. Thanks in advance.

oldnavy
11-15-2009, 05:08 PM
Monday night in Cameron Duke takes on Coastal Carolina in a 1st round game of the Preseason NIT. Nolan and Mason are out, Jordan will be back.

CC has some size and they are coming off a win against the College of Charleston. Charleston is picked to win their league.

CC has 3 6'7 guys and 1 6'8. They do have a kid that is 6'10 but he only played 4 minutes in their opener.

6'5 Sr Forward Joseph Harris lead the way against Charleston with 21 points and 17 boards. He was supported by 6'7 Chad Gay with 17 points, and 6'2 G Dexter Moore with 10 points.

Should be a good test for our shorthanded team. We will need to execute like we did Friday night, rebound well and D up. I would expect Lance to draw the defensive assignment against Harris and at times Moore.

Should be a win but will have to play hard and earn it.

I look forward to watching our bigs play against some size. Should be interesting to see how we rebound in this one.

The_Greater_Blue
11-15-2009, 07:14 PM
6'5 Sr Forward Joseph Harris lead the way against Charleston with 21 points and 17 boards.

Harris made the Big South 1st team last year and is preseason Big South 1st team this year. Coastal is however, picked to finish in 9th place in the conference. They did beat Charleston in their opener, and as mentioned Charleston is picked to win their half of the Southern Conference ( ahead of Davidson).

That being said, I am looking forward to another strong game by Duke who will have much more size than their opponent.

Bob Green
11-15-2009, 08:35 PM
I look forward to watching our bigs play against some size.

That will happen on Tuesday against Charlotte. The 49ers start a 6'10" 260 Center and 6'8" 235 forward who both recorded double-doubles in their teams first game:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=293172429

Of course, I am assuming Duke and Charlotte both win their Monday night contests.

Highlander
11-15-2009, 10:44 PM
That will happen on Tuesday against Charlotte. The 49ers start a 6'10" 260 Center and 6'8" 235 forward who both recorded double-doubles in their teams first game:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=293172429

Of course, I am assuming Duke and Charlotte both win their Monday night contests.

That will be an interesting matchup. Charlotte will be amped for that game b/c they rarely get scheduled with the ACC schools in house. This is a game that won't mean much to Duke if they win, but might just keep Bobby Lutz around for a few more years if he can pull it out. Charlotte typically has an above average program, but the move to the A-10 has not been good for them. They had a nice rivalry with Cincinatti back in CUSA, but got booted out b/c they don't have a football team.

Reminds me of what Valvano used to say, "Never play schools from your state that aren't in your conference. You have enough enemies already."

crimsonandblue
11-15-2009, 11:29 PM
And, of course, the coach at CC is the familiar Cliff Ellis, who coached at Clemson from 1985 to 1994. He had them in the NCAA Tournament three times in that span, including the famous 1990 loss to UConn at Tate George in the Sweet 16 (the game before Duke edged UConn on Laettner's first game-winning NCAA shot). He also had six NIT teams.

Ellis also won Clemson its first (and still only) basketball championship since 1939, when he guided the Tigers to the 1990 ACC regular season championship. In fact, he's the only reason there IS an ACC regular season championship. Until 1990, the league merely recognized the team with the best regular season record as the first-place finisher in the regular season.

But since Clemson had never won anything -- and all the fellow ACC coaches liked Cliff -- they voted that spring to officially recognize Clemson and every subsiquent first-place winner as the "ACC regular season champion." (you have to put the words regular season in there ... if you just as ACC champion, you're talking about the tournament winner, which is still the official league championship team).

Clemson was even given a trophy for its 1990 accomplishment -- the only regular season champion to get one of those.

Let's see, Cliff was 3-18 against Duke during his tenure at Clemson with all three wins coming in Littlejohn. He brings an 0-10 record in Cameron into Monday night's game.

PS Cliff Ellis loves beach music. He even recorded an album of shag classics. Maybe the pep band or the Crazies could serenade him with a chorus of "I Love Beach Music"

Ask him to sign his book:

http://i43.tower.com/images/mm101125031/beach-music-pat-conroy-paperback-cover-art.jpg

-bdbd
11-15-2009, 11:30 PM
Are we expecting the same starting five vs CC as we saw Fri. night? Will Olek start again, or will K trial a different combo?

It'll be interesting to see if Jordan plays real minutes. I'm curious to see how it gets handled the first time we lose (or get close to losing) 2 of our 3 scholarship guards in a game ...or by combination of injury/foul/fatigue/poor match-ups. This also applies once Nolan Smith gets back. I'd like to learn in Nov. or Dec. how to best handle having just one fully-available scholarship guard, rather than figure it out on the fly in an ACC game in February. Somewhere along the line we're going to lose a couple of the guards in a game to foul trouble or fatigue/injuries, and we need to know how to best deal with it before then.

I'm still expecting to see some degree of pounding it inside against these smaller teams, with Zoubs getting some good minutes and points (Miles P. and Ryan too). Looking forward to the first nationally televised opportunity to see our 09-10 Dukies!!

-BDBD :cool:

jesus_hurley
11-15-2009, 11:34 PM
Are we expecting the same starting five vs CC as we saw Fri. night? Will Olek start again, or will K trial a different combo?

It'll be interesting to see if Davidson plays real minutes. I'm curious to seee how it gets handled the first time we lose (or get close to losing) 2 of our 3 scholarship guards in a game ...or by combination of injury/foul/fatigue. This applies once Nolan Smith gets back. I'd like to learn in Nov. or Dec. how to best handle having just one fully-available scholarship guard, rather than figure it out on the fly in an ACC game in February. Somewhere along the line we'll lose a couple of the guards in a game to foul trouble or fatigue/injuries, and we need to know how to best deal with it.

I'm still expecting to see some degree of pounding it inside against these smaller teams, with Zoubs getting some good minutes and points (Miles P. and Ryan too). Looking forward to the first nationally televised opportunity to see our 09-10 Dukies!!

-BDBD :cool:

After Andre got his 4th foul on Friday Duke went big and Singler moved to the 2. I think Kelly and Lance filled in at the 3 when that happened

El_Diablo
11-15-2009, 11:40 PM
Quincy Miller will be in the house...let's show him a good time! :cool:

msdukie
11-16-2009, 10:07 AM
Clemson was even given a trophy for its 1990 accomplishment -- the only regular season champion to get one of those.



Every ACC Regular-Season Champion (since 1990) has a trophy. It's significantly smaller than, but similar to, the real ACC Championship trophy. There are several of them floating around in the lobbies of Cameron.

Mrezt
11-16-2009, 11:21 AM
Is there any way to watch this if I dont have ESPNU? Like a stream or something

Battierfan01
11-16-2009, 11:32 AM
I clicked on the cbssports.com link that is under the Next Up-Coastal Carolina article on the home page. This link is a preview to the game tonight. Under the preview there is a feature that list a key player for each team and gives their season averages. Coastal Carolina's key player is Joseph Harris. It list that his season average in rebounds is 17.0. Is this right?? Could it be that Coastal Carolina has only played one game and this was his total for that game?? This just seems like a very large number to average in rebounds.

El_Diablo
11-16-2009, 11:35 AM
It list that his season average in rebounds is 17.0. Is this right?? Could it be that Coastal Carolina has only played one game and this was his total for that game??

The answer to both is yes. It's his average, and it's from one game.

BlueintheFace
11-16-2009, 12:18 PM
From Jon Goodman's Blog of foxsports.com:


Coastal Carolina has suspended Danny Nieman, Chad Gray and Marcus Macellari for violating team rules. The trio will sit out tonight’s game against Duke

jesus_hurley
11-16-2009, 01:10 PM
From Jon Goodman's Blog of foxsports.com:

Here it is in non-blog format:
http://www.wmbfnews.com/Global/story.asp?S=11508791

And this is 2/5 of their players 6'7" or taller

Roster: http://www.goccusports.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/coas-m-baskbl-mtt.html

msdukie
11-16-2009, 01:15 PM
Duke just sent me an e-mail saying that upper level tickets are on sale for tonight...

Acymetric
11-16-2009, 02:20 PM
How do tickets work for the following Charlotte-Elon game? Are there separate tickets, or do the tickets for the Duke game allow admittance to the later game as well?

CLW
11-16-2009, 04:14 PM
Lurked here for sometime now. Figured it was time to sign up and start chatting/posting with fellow Duke fans.

Looking forward to tonights game. Hopefully, the absence of two starters will allow the team to develop some depth. I was impressed with Dawkins/Olek/MP1 in the opener. Hopefully, those 3 guys can continue to improve and K will use the bench a little more this year.

For those who might not be able to get tonight's game (I'm stuck in East Tennessee on a business trip) there will be a live feed at:

www.justin.tv/accsportszone2

Mrezt
11-16-2009, 04:23 PM
Lurked here for sometime now. Figured it was time to sign up and start chatting/posting with fellow Duke fans.

Looking forward to tonights game. Hopefully, the absence of two starters will allow the team to develop some depth. I was impressed with Dawkins/Olek/MP1 in the opener. Hopefully, those 3 guys can continue to improve and K will use the bench a little more this year.

For those who might not be able to get tonight's game (I'm stuck in East Tennessee on a business trip) there will be a live feed at:

www.justin.tv/accsportszone2

Thank you! :)

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-16-2009, 05:40 PM
I just realized i had Espnu so i can watch the game on tv now. YAY

riverside6
11-16-2009, 06:46 PM
for those interested in the tempo-based live stats, here you go...

http://www.scacchoops.com/ViewHDGame.asp?hSchedule=3602

Starters are: Scheyer, Singler, Czyz, Thomas, and Mi. Plumlee

BlueintheFace
11-16-2009, 06:53 PM
Lets snrub it up...

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-16-2009, 07:03 PM
Lets go Duke

RoyalBlue08
11-16-2009, 07:04 PM
Where are all the undergrads? The are huge empty spaces at both ends of the floor??

FireOgilvie
11-16-2009, 07:09 PM
We look awful to start. 6-1. Now 6-6. At least 4 of their points came directly from defensive lapses by Olek. The stands are not full, but we do have two games in 2 days, so that makes it kind of tough. Still should be more full though.

juise
11-16-2009, 07:09 PM
ESPN's box score says that Mason has a turnover. I'm guessing that has to be an error. They mean Miles, right?

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-16-2009, 07:10 PM
It's a little sloppy but i'm not worried

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-16-2009, 07:22 PM
Can someone tell the broadcaster it's singler not singular.

Edouble
11-16-2009, 07:28 PM
I love JustinTV. We need Nolan.

Blueequalslife23
11-16-2009, 07:29 PM
Okay, What i've noticed about this season so far is that LANCE and OLEK need to stop putting the ball on the floor!! When these two dribble it's a turnover waiting to happen. Lance moving out to the perimeter is a bad decision. He's took two or three jumpshots so far and they look awful. This doesn't look good.

oldnavy
11-16-2009, 07:29 PM
Someone should tell Andre to stop being so bashful!

Love his moxy!

Oriole Way
11-16-2009, 07:29 PM
Lance Thomas is a walking turnover right now. He's getting too many touches and handling the ball way too much, leading to lots of turnovers.

Blueequalslife23
11-16-2009, 07:33 PM
Lance Thomas is a walking turnover right now. He's getting too many touches and handling the ball way too much, leading to lots of turnovers.

exactly!

Edouble
11-16-2009, 07:34 PM
Wow, a 3-2 Zone. I can't remember the last time I saw us show that. It's pretty scary looking b/c we're so tall.

Blueequalslife23
11-16-2009, 07:37 PM
Turnover. Lance Thomas.

Edouble
11-16-2009, 07:38 PM
Turnover. Lance Thomas.

You would expect a 6'8" senior to get the foul or pass the ball out in that situation.

snowdenscold
11-16-2009, 07:47 PM
justin.tv just died... =(

Edit: the guy accidentally unplugged the stream, haha

Spam Filter
11-16-2009, 07:52 PM
Defense and rebounding may be our strength this year, that's very strange for a Duke team. (The rebounding part).

jv001
11-16-2009, 08:02 PM
Nolan is the missing piece to make our offense run smoothly. Right now Kyle is our only player that looks comfortable drving the ball to the basket. As far as LT goes, he's not playing great and he's not playing all that badly. Andre's shot looks great. Wish Olek would copy that jump shot. Kelly looks ok as well. Seems to know where to be on the court. Not like some freshmen. Look for Jon to get hot in 2nd half. I agree that rebounding could be one of our assets this year. Go Duke!

Blueequalslife23
11-16-2009, 08:03 PM
This offense just looks so uncomfortable. It's so not Duke basketball.

oldnavy
11-16-2009, 08:03 PM
ESPN's box score says that Mason has a turnover. I'm guessing that has to be an error. They mean Miles, right?

Nope, mason turned over a gatoraid on the bench. :rolleyes:

Kind of sloppy, but not too bad. Getting NS back will really help our offensive flow I think

sandinmyshoes
11-16-2009, 08:05 PM
Having Nolan back will be huge. He'll put more pressure on the other team on both ends of the court.

Blueequalslife23
11-16-2009, 08:05 PM
Kyle's Rebounding is really surprising me.

FireOgilvie
11-16-2009, 08:07 PM
I like that Andre has the green light to shoot the open 3, but he is slightly off tonight.

Edouble
11-16-2009, 08:08 PM
Why is Lance shooting a 20' shot?

Blueequalslife23
11-16-2009, 08:08 PM
Lance Thomas thinks he has the green light too. He just doesn't have a jumpshot.

Spam Filter
11-16-2009, 08:12 PM
Our offense just isn't very good without Nolan.

Remains to be seen how much better it will be with him.

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-16-2009, 08:13 PM
Kyle is looking like the NPOY in this game.

Edouble
11-16-2009, 08:16 PM
OK, enough of that guy's dad.

Rudy
11-16-2009, 08:16 PM
Other than Kyle the shooting is bad. The rest of the team was 30% from the floor, in the first half including 1/9 from the three. Rebounding, as expected is dominant. The bigs are collapsing well on the pentrators, so defense is OK. Zoubek played several minutes without fouling at all, got a couple of blocks and rebounds. Lance's game looks the same--good defense, excellent hustle, bad shot. This team needs Nolan and needs Dawkins to shoot better. Kyle's even better than I expected, with a longer range 3 than ever. Czyk OK but still has a ways to go to be good. Offense looks rough but that's standard fare this early in the season.

superdave
11-16-2009, 08:27 PM
We are really scoring off motion and screens tonight. Not much posting up or drives all the way to the hole. Our D is far more help oriented/collapse than high pressure.

Kyle has hit some tough shots off of screens and rebounded very well. I like him crashing the boards from the wing.

Scheyer has played a solid mistake-fee game and looks good off the ball once he makes the initial pass.

Andre: Keep shooting! It will come!

Lance and Brian are making underclassmen mistakes- as Bilas would say, Be Strong with the Ball!

Miles has been tough but probably needs to look post up some more in order to be a scoring threat.

FireOgilvie
11-16-2009, 08:30 PM
Kelly's 3 point stroke is ugly tonight. He has some kind of weird hitch in the middle and he leans forward awkwardly. I know he can make them, but it's not pretty.

I'm glad to see Dawkins starting to hit.

6th Man
11-16-2009, 08:41 PM
Too many 3 point shots. Man...tired of this brand of basketball.

Spam Filter
11-16-2009, 08:49 PM
The good news is right now Singler is on a complete different level.

The bad news is that it's looking very unlikely that he would be back next year given how good he is.

BlueintheFace
11-16-2009, 09:05 PM
Thoughts:

1) Dawkins definitely has the green light. If he gets hot... yikes. Form looked great but his shot was not falling.

2) KS is 1st Team AA, 2nd team at worst. Jay Bilas is just wrong here. The kid is amazing.

3) I actually like this defense a good deal. We really force teams to take jumpers and save ourselves from foul trouble. It should look much better w/ Nolan back.

4) Kelly has great court awareness and vision. Just a smart B-Ball player.

5) Offense still needs plenty of work. Miles really needs to work on establishing position.

ice-9
11-16-2009, 09:13 PM
I didn't think we looked particularly great in the Coastal Carolina game.

Let me preface by saying that Coastal Carolina looks good. They're a solid team and I wouldn't be suprised at all to see them win their conference and make it to the NCAA tournament. Let me also state a disclaimer: I was working while watching both UNCG and CC games so I may have missed some things.

However, our offense looks one dimensional right now, and that one dimension is Singler. This guy is a stud and will carry our team - but teams that rely on one guy don't tend to go far in the NCAA.

Unlike the UNCG game, I didn't see much passing in the CC game. Some of it might be due to the weird triangle and two defense, but still, it seemed like all of our points came from 3 pointers eked from curls and screens (23 out of 54 shots were 3-pointers!) and put backs from rebounds. It's not a bad offense, but it makes us seem like a jump shooting team.

Our post is clearly a work in progress. Against teams like UNCG and CC our post isn't a problem - we can count on getting those offensive rebounds and putbacks - but against bigger and better teams...we'll *need* a good shooting day to win.

We saw some hints as to where our post play can go towards the end of the CC game with the high-low plays, but right now, our post is reactive rather than proactive.

We defeated CC by 25 points, sure, but CC didn't help itself by missing wide open shots that better teams won't miss and by having some of its players suspended on the bench.

The silver lining is that I'm sure by the end of the season we'll be a much better team than we are now.

oldnavy
11-16-2009, 09:13 PM
Thoughts:

1) Dawkins definitely has the green light. If he gets hot... yikes. Form looked great but his shot was not falling.

2) KS is 1st Team AA, 2nd team at worst. Jay Bilas is just wrong here. The kid is amazing.

3) I actually like this defense a good deal. We really force teams to take jumpers and save ourselves from foul trouble. It should look much better w/ Nolan back.

4) Kelly has great court awareness and vision. Just a smart B-Ball player.

5) Offense still needs plenty of work. Miles really needs to work on establishing position.

Miles did a little better there at the end of the game getting position.

Olek was a little off tonight, but to me the POTG was when he drove down the lane and had that sweet drop pass to Miles for the throw down... NICE!

uh_no
11-16-2009, 09:14 PM
Where are all the undergrads? The are huge empty spaces at both ends of the floor??

working possibly?

believe it or not....many students do have prior commitments on mondays at 7 pm

Kedsy
11-16-2009, 09:17 PM
This guy is a stud and will carry our team - but teams that rely on one guy don't tend to go far in the NCAA.


Unless the one guy's name is Larry Bird, or Danny Manning, or Carmelo Anthony... I think you'll find the list of teams that have gone further than expected in the tournament while riding the back of one great player is surprisingly long.

Rudy
11-16-2009, 09:25 PM
Dawkins had open looks from 3 so he took them, took them all. Seems to me if it's not falling for him he ought to try driving the basket more for closer shots or dishes to a big. Andre rarely tried to take it to the basket. Czyg had a nice end of game run, with two straight drives to hoop resulting in baskets, one of his own and one dish to Plumlee.

Scheyer had 2nd game with zero turnovers, but he was 1-5 shooting from the floor.

JaMarcus Russell
11-16-2009, 09:28 PM
I agree with most of the posters here. Singler looks like a NPOY candidate and and a definite All-American. Scheyer seems uncomfortable as the point guard, so it was a good idea to have Dawkins run the point for a few plays so Scheyer could get some space and take open shots.

I anticipate Scheyer to be much better with Nolan in the line-up tomorrow. Dawkins looked fine. He was a bit trigger happy but he has a nice stroke. I am sure Kelly will be better in the future. He is a great passer and more physical than I anticipated, so those are both promising signs.

I was a little disappointed with the lack of an inside game from Miles. We saw a little bit of it at the end of the game, but I wish it hadn't taken 37 minutes for us to see some lobs to Miles.

FireOgilvie
11-16-2009, 09:29 PM
Singler reminds me of Adam Morrison this year, except Singler can actually rebound. Singler looks good on those curl runs. Maybe along with the long hair, Singler should grow out a little mustache...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Adam_Morrison.jpg

Highlander
11-16-2009, 09:29 PM
working possibly?

believe it or not....many students do have prior commitments on mondays at 7 pm

Dude. Give it a rest.

91devil
11-16-2009, 09:35 PM
Is it me, or does Kyle look a bit too thin?

I know they rave about his conditioning, and limited body fat, and how he redefined his body in anticipation of playing more on the perimter.

Still, though, does he look too light to anyone else?

Edouble
11-16-2009, 09:39 PM
Unless the one guy's name is Larry Bird, or Danny Manning, or Carmelo Anthony... I think you'll find the list of teams that have gone further than expected in the tournament while riding the back of one great player is surprisingly long.

Grant Hill.

FireOgilvie
11-16-2009, 09:40 PM
Is it me, or does Kyle look a bit too thin?

I know they rave about his conditioning, and limited body fat, and how he redefined his body in anticipation of playing more on the perimter.

Still, though, does he look too light to anyone else?

He did lose a noticeable amount of weight, but I think it's mostly just fat. I think the strength is still there. I heard he cut his body fat percentage in half roughly. Also, he's playing SG/SF right now, so I think he'll be fine.

darkblue2769
11-16-2009, 09:53 PM
First off, explanation for the emptier than normal stands: it was "freshman night" and the freshman were allowed in first, in a separate line. This may have deterred many upperclassman from coming if they thought they'd get terrible spots.

LT: I actually watched him warming up by himself today, since I was in Cameron really early (like 5:30), and he was nailing shots from just inside the 3-point arc with surprising accuracy (obviously this did not translate in game, just thought I'd point it out).

Andre Dawkins: I think it can stand to be said again that Andre has great form when he shoots, and that the shots just weren't falling. Don't let the percentage fool you; he is going to light some people up with the 3. That being said, he did look a little timid when it came to driving to the hoop. His defender eventually started to give him room to drive, and he still didn't seem comfortable going for it.

Ryan Kelly: Already looks more comfortable on the floor than in previous games. I'm hoping this continues.

Overall, I thought that we could have played a better game, but there were moments when things really clicked. And, as we all know, Singler is our motor. When he's on, we're going to do well. When he's not, it's noticeably tougher.

Also, personal favorite moment: A band member stepped down to offer a Chick-Fil-A sandwich to the Coastal Carolina mascot (a bird, for those who were unaware), prompting a cheer of "Chick-Fil-A."

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-16-2009, 09:54 PM
He did lose a noticeable amount of weight, but I think it's mostly just fat. I think the strength is still there. I heard he cut his body fat percentage in half roughly. Also, he's playing SG/SF right now, so I think he'll be fine.

11 reb is great for a sg

FireOgilvie
11-16-2009, 10:01 PM
11 reb is great for a sg

Yep. He looked good. He was doing a nice job of going to the basket after CC shots from the zone.

I think if Nolan would have played, we would have won by another 15-20 points.

Does anyone know when Mason is coming back? Is there any word at all? I've heard everything from 2 to 8 weeks.

Duvall
11-16-2009, 10:01 PM
first off, explanation for the emptier than normal stands: It was "freshman night"

no more nights.

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-16-2009, 10:15 PM
When Dawkins is hot he can be as good as Jon or Nolan.

I love his jump shot.

COYS
11-16-2009, 10:17 PM
I thought that we played a good game, overall. The lack of consistency and fluidity on offense is easily chalked up to the absence of Nolan and Mason. We were already working in new starting lineup this year with Elliot and Gerald out, Mason, Miles in, and Smith returning to the starting lineup. Now we have to adjust on the fly to no Nolan and no Mason. Hopefully with Nolan in the lineup, Singler will no longer be our only offensive threat and Scheyer will be relieved of running the entire offense every time. Miles plays with great energy, but I think it will be hard for him to be too much more than a solid rebounder and defender who gets a few dunks and put backs in there every once in a while. Hopefully his post game will develop. Also, as other posters have noted, I'm sure that Lance will not have the ball in his hands for extended stretches like he did tonight. I'd love for him to keep on working on his 15-18 foot jumper because that will be open a lot, but otherwise, I'll be content with stellar defense, maybe a few boards, some putbacks, and a few easy buckets from nice interior passing.

Andre didn't hit from downtown tonight, but everyone in the gym knows he can. I'd like to see him attack the basket with confidence when given the opportunity, but the most important offensive asset he can bring is his three point shot. I think we'll see him post some big scoring games this year on days when he gets hot. I'm glad Ryan and Czyz are getting some burn because they will be invaluable on any night when Singler is in foul trouble or (heaven forbid) injured. It's obvious to see, though, that there is a massive gap between the two reserves (assuming Czyz returns to the bench in the near future) and Singler. We may miss Nolan right now. And losing Plumlee hurts. But keeping Singler healthy and foul-trouble free is far more important.

Defensively, I love the zone. It just looks so menacing on TV with our height. We only get taller when Mason comes back, too. As long as our bigs block out well enough (which is something I think we're still mediocre at), we will be collecting a lot of rebounds off of missed jumpers from guards trying to shoot midrange shots over the outstretched arms of Singler, Mason, Miles, Thomas, etc. If we can collect those missed shots quickly and push the ball up the court, we'll get to see a lot of spectacular dunks from our bigs in transition, which will help open up our offense, as well.

Basically, I think this will be the best defensive team Duke has had in the past few years. Our height and the mobility of our forwards are real assets, especially once Mason returns. The jury is out on the offense, but it will only improve as key pieces return from suspension and injury. I've got no problem with us leaning on our defense for a while as the offense sorts itself out.

Poincaré
11-16-2009, 10:26 PM
So no one finds it kind of worrisome that we scored only 74 against a weak team that was much shorter than ours? Perhaps my memory is fading, but in the early part of this decade, didn't national championship level Duke teams regularly destroy teams like Coast Carolina to the tune of 100-50 or 120-70? For now, I am hoping that Nolan's absence is the reason for offensive sputters. If the offense stalls with Nolan at the helm, will that be attributed to the team needing more time to get used to playing with Nolan again? I don't know. Seeing our team crush some unsuspecting team on the offensive end when Nolan returns would go a long way towards reducing flashbacks to recent tournaments in which we just couldn't buy a bucket.

Jumbo
11-16-2009, 10:32 PM
So no one finds it kind of worrisome that we scored only 74 against a weak team that was much shorter than ours? Perhaps my memory is fading, but in the early part of this decade, didn't national championship level Duke teams regularly destroy teams like Coast Carolina to the tune of 100-50 or 120-70? For now, I am hoping that Nolan's absence is the reason for offensive sputters. If the offense stalls with Nolan at the helm, will that be attributed to the team needing more time to get used to playing with Nolan again? I don't know. Seeing our team crush some unsuspecting team on the offensive end when Nolan returns would go a long way towards reducing flashbacks to recent tournaments in which we just couldn't buy a bucket.

No. I find it worrisome that anyone who cares enough about basketball to take the time to post on a message board would even think about being concerned about anything that happened in a 25-point win in the 2nd game of the season where Duke was missing two of its top four players.

Jumbo
11-16-2009, 10:38 PM
working possibly?

believe it or not....many students do have prior commitments on mondays at 7 pm

No one in college has so much work that they can't find a couple of hours to do something beyond studying on week night. I'm sorry, the "studying" excuse has never done much for me -- you never have as much free time in your life as you do in college. It's all about budgeting.

No, I imagine this is part of the trend at Duke where it seems like every year, there are just fewer kids who like or understand basketball. It's amazing how many "Crazies" haven't been to basketball games before they've been to Duke. It's amazing how many show up at games, sit in the front and have no clue what's going on the with the game -- rules, situations, you name it. Look, admissions can and should do whatever it wants, but there's something to be said for bringing in well-rounded kids with social skills and varied interests rather than kids who might've scored 20 points higher on the SAT and believe they need to spend every free moment studying.

Poincaré
11-16-2009, 10:39 PM
No. I find it worrisome that anyone who cares enough about basketball to take the time to post on a message board would even think about being concerned about anything that happened in a 25-point win in the 2nd game of the season where Duke was missing two of its top four players.

Come on. If you can nicely convince those of us who are less knowledgeable, please do so. Surely you can do more than just be dismissive. This kind of response just builds antagonism. I am just going to assume you're having a bad day. We're all "friends" in some loose sense here, right?

AlaskanAssassin
11-16-2009, 10:40 PM
I want to see Andre do athletic dunks in games, sort of in a way Gerald does it. The dunks that I've seen in video clips are just incredible! I'd like for him to showcase it!

Bob Green
11-16-2009, 10:48 PM
I want to see Andre do athletic dunks in games....The dunks that I've seen in video clips are just incredible!

Dunks are great for highlight reels and ESPN Sportscenter plays of the day, but I am much more interested in seeing Dawkins develop into a well rounded ball player who can stretch defenses with his shooting stroke, D-up man to man, get out and run on the break, etc...there seems to be way too much emphasis placed on dunking the ball over someone. I believe Dawkins will show us the ability to take his man to the hole this year, however, I am more interested in seeing him knock down 3-pointers at this point. Dawkins is 5-15 (.333) on 3 point attempts through two games, which isn't great but definitely isn't shabby. His percentage will rise.

RelativeWays
11-16-2009, 10:48 PM
I thought it was a pretty decent game honestly, considering one of our offensive cogs had to sit out. Didn't go inside as much as we could and maybe Duke didn't win as big as we could, but they also never let CC threaten or run either. once it got above 20, it stayed there. The team was efficient for the most part and a 20+ over CC is not going to make anyone look twice and wonder "whats wrong with Duke"

Newton_14
11-16-2009, 10:52 PM
Come on. If you can nicely convince those of us who are less knowledgeable, please do so. Surely you can do more than just be dismissive. This kind of response just builds antagonism. I am just going to assume you're having a bad day. We're all "friends" in some loose sense here, right?

Ok, I will play "good cop" here. There are several reasons the offense looked a little different tonight. As Jumbo pointed out, with Nolan and Mason sitting it changes the approach.

First Jon has way more to do when Nolan is not out there. Combine that with the fact that CoC played mostly triangle & 2 on Jon and Kyle all night and Jon's role changes. He barely looked for his shot in the 1st half. But Kyle was abusing his guy and others were chipping in so Jon focused on getting others the ball vs scoring. Nolan coming back will free Jon up a lot. As will facing normal defenses.


Also the gimmick defense took away our favorite way to feed the post. (From the high post). CoC went man some late in the game and we immediately attacked that with Kelly feeding Miles.

All in all a solid effort. Defense and rebounding was outstanding. Too many turnovers but it's early and they are playing lineups that just have not practiced a lot together.

It wasn't always pretty but it did not need to be. A 25 point win missing 2 key players in the 2nd game of the year when you have practiced all summer with those two guys is actually a good thing.

So no, I for one am not concerned at all. I just want my stud guard and stud center back out there to help!
Oh and don't mind Jumbo.. He is a good guy even when grumpy.. he's just grumpy a lot!
:D

Duvall
11-16-2009, 10:54 PM
Look, admissions can and should do whatever it wants, but there's something to be said for bringing in well-rounded kids with social skills and varied interests rather than kids who might've scored 20 points higher on the SAT and believe they need to spend every free moment studying.

What, exactly? What is to be said?

On the list of priorities for Duke University, recruiting potential basketball fans is pretty low.

Sixthman
11-16-2009, 10:54 PM
So no one finds it kind of worrisome that we scored only 74 against a weak team that was much shorter than ours? Perhaps my memory is fading, but in the early part of this decade, didn't national championship level Duke teams regularly destroy teams like Coast Carolina to the tune of 100-50 or 120-70? For now, I am hoping that Nolan's absence is the reason for offensive sputters. If the offense stalls with Nolan at the helm, will that be attributed to the team needing more time to get used to playing with Nolan again? I don't know. Seeing our team crush some unsuspecting team on the offensive end when Nolan returns would go a long way towards reducing flashbacks to recent tournaments in which we just couldn't buy a bucket.

We played a lot of zone, and they held the ball for a shot at the end of the shot clock on nearly every possession. That means fewer opportunities to score. We shot poorly in the first half, and pretty well in the second. We rebounded pretty well in the first, and not as well in the second. The game was never in doubt and won by 25 in low scoring game. The same as winning by 35 if we had scored 20 more. K said in the postgame that we avoided pushing tempo because it was pointless where we were obviously going to win and needed to stay fresh because we face a potentially tougher game with less than 24 hours to turn around.

walras
11-16-2009, 10:57 PM
Jumbo: I love your posts on basketball, and connected stuff. You're a main strength of this board, and delight to read. But your view that Duke should return to the days of kids who all like sports, and are well-rounded, is not relevant to the university any longer, nor has it been for a number of years now. Yao Ming may be king of the Chinese youth idols, but for a Chinese kid to get into Duke means a lot of studying, and the parents don't take kindly to extra-curricular stuff. The fraction of Duke admits as undergrads from overseas has skyrocketed, as the Northeast US kids have been going elsewhere. The Lacrosse hoax killed Duke at the Exeters and Andovers and Deerfields and the like. Those families have not returned nor will they return, or so admissions believes.

Like it or not, the Duke students are now really not the students of the 1990s, or even the early 2000s.

Walking around campus on a Monday, you no longer hear conversation after conversation about "I was sooo wasted this weekend." You are much more likely to hear about how "I have to skip lunch cause I have to do a tutoring session in Durham in half an hour", or "my lab director wants me prepare some slides for a talk to the neuroinformatics colloquium".

And so it goes.

duke09hms
11-16-2009, 10:58 PM
Tonight, after watching Z get the ball stripped multiple times by a much smaller and less talented team and Lance turn the ball over and over, a question arises.

How is it possible that in 4 years, neither Lance Thomas nor Zoubek have developed any sort of offensive game? I mean, both players seem to play with a lot of heart and seem to have the desire to win. But not even a single go-to move or a semi-consistent jump shot?

We say Coach K is the best basketball coach in the world, but how can it be that under 4 years of his coaching, both Lance and Z are walking turnover machines when they get the ball?

It's not like both are devoid of athletic talent, it's just that they STILL so spastic and uncoordinated. It's hard to not describe this as a failure on the coaching staff.

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-16-2009, 11:03 PM
Tonight, after watching Z get the ball stripped multiple times by a much smaller and less talented team and Lance turn the ball over and over, a question arises.

How is it possible that in 4 years, neither Lance Thomas nor Zoubek have developed any sort of offensive game? I mean, both players seem to play with a lot of heart and seem to have the desire to win. But not even a single go-to move or a semi-consistent jump shot?

We say Coach K is the best basketball coach in the world, but how can it be that under 4 years of his coaching, both Lance and Z are walking turnover machines when they get the ball?

It's not like both are devoid of athletic talent, it's just that they STILL so spastic and uncoordinated. It's hard to not describe this as a failure on the coaching staff.


I find this post soooo funny but yet painfully true. A part inside me feels bad for LT because he had some hype coming out of high school.

Newton_14
11-16-2009, 11:04 PM
Dunks are great for highlight reels and ESPN Sportscenter plays of the day, but I am much more interested in seeing Dawkins develop into a well rounded ball player who can stretch defenses with his shooting stroke, D-up man to man, get out and run on the break, etc...there seems to be way too much emphasis placed on dunking the ball over someone. I believe Dawkins will show us the ability to take his man to the hole this year, however, I am more interested in seeing him knock down 3-pointers at this point. Dawkins is 5-15 (.333) on 3 point attempts through two games, which isn't great but definitely isn't shabby. His percentage will rise.

Good points Bob. Also, with the Triangle and 2 being played that meant Andre was going to be wide open practically every time down on the wing. Well you just cannot shoot it every single time down, so you have to decide when it's right to pull the trigger vs looking for someone else. That's tough on a young freshman.

I thought he did well. He knocked the first one down and then did a "heat check" taking 3 more quick ones. He missed on all and then got a little hesitant and started looking to pass or drive. But during a stoppage for free throws right after missing the 3rd one, he looked over to the bench and was encouraged to keep shooting. All in all he played well. I think he is getting a little bit better each time they go out there. He has a very promising future!

sagegrouse
11-16-2009, 11:05 PM
When Dawkins is hot he can be as good as Jon or Nolan.

I love his jump shot.

Also, imagine how good he will be when he reaches his 16th birthday: he looks so young!

sagegrouse
Edit: Post #1,000

Spam Filter
11-16-2009, 11:06 PM
Why is the non-development of a player always the coaches' fault?

If a coaching staff consistently never have players develop, then maybe one can point to the staff. If under a staff some players develop and some don't, isn't the simpler explanation that what the reason for some players who don't get better are due to those players themselves?

Poincaré
11-16-2009, 11:15 PM
We played a lot of zone, and they held the ball for a shot at the end of the shot clock on nearly every possession. That means fewer opportunities to score. We shot poorly in the first half, and pretty well in the second. We rebounded pretty well in the first, and not as well in the second. The game was never in doubt and won by 25 in low scoring game. The same as winning by 35 if we had scored 20 more. K said in the postgame that we avoided pushing tempo because it was pointless where we were obviously going to win and needed to stay fresh because we face a potentially tougher game with less than 24 hours to turn around.

Well, I guess that is as good an explanation as any. Thanks for the tidbit about the K presser. Perhaps I now should revise my impression of this game. First I thought that it was possibly a harbinger of scoring difficulties to come. I guess it isn't. Unfortunately, it isn't a sign that we will be able score when it counts either. Some reassurance would be nice. Come back soon, Nolan and Mason...

mike88
11-16-2009, 11:20 PM
Some impressions:

1) We played some really good defense at times tonight: both switching man to man, and zone. Our man to man with Lance on the point guard and either Plumlee or Zoubek in the lane made it very difficult for CC to get any reasonable shots, particularly when CC had 1-2 players in the game who did not look to score. I will be interested to see if we continue to lock down against better teams.

2) Kyle Singler is an amazing rebounder, in addition to being the best offensive player we have had since JJ. Our team rebounding looks as good as I have seen it in quite a while . . .

3) Despite his turnovers, I think Lance is playing a solid role for us this year as a defensive stopper. He can hit the 10-12 ft jumper, and we need him to develop confidence in taking it. If he can be strong with the ball and take his time (this cutting down on turnovers, I think he will get major minutes.

4) No one will be happier to have Nolan back on the court than Jon Scheyer. Jon played his usual solid game both tonight and last Friday, but he needs an occasional respite- it will be interesting to see the rotation tomorrow night. Before the season, I thought Jon and Kyle would play 36-37 minutes a game, but that may be an underestimate.

5) I loved to see Andre Dawkins' energy and willingness to shoot the open shot. His stroke looks good, but he will need to figure out how to get looks within the context of the offense. Ryan Kelly, on the other hand, may need to re-tool his shot if he is going to play on the wing. He tends to lunge and "squeeze" off his shot, which is hard to do from the 3 point line. To his credit, he can make shots (I watched him hit 6-8 in a row Friday night in warm-ups) but it is hard to shoot it that way with someone guarding you, or on the move.

6) Lots of empty seats in the student section, and a few upstairs, too. I hope it is better tomorrow . . .fortunately, no "jersey mike's starting line-up" or Michael Buffer tonight.

Poincaré
11-16-2009, 11:21 PM
Jumbo: I love your posts on basketball, and connected stuff. You're a main strength of this board, and delight to read. But your view that Duke should return to the days of kids who all like sports, and are well-rounded, is not relevant to the university any longer, nor has it been for a number of years now. Yao Ming may be king of the Chinese youth idols, but for a Chinese kid to get into Duke means a lot of studying, and the parents don't take kindly to extra-curricular stuff. The fraction of Duke admits as undergrads from overseas has skyrocketed, as the Northeast US kids have been going elsewhere. The Lacrosse hoax killed Duke at the Exeters and Andovers and Deerfields and the like. Those families have not returned nor will they return, or so admissions believes.

Like it or not, the Duke students are now really not the students of the 1990s, or even the early 2000s.

Walking around campus on a Monday, you no longer hear conversation after conversation about "I was sooo wasted this weekend." You are much more likely to hear about how "I have to skip lunch cause I have to do a tutoring session in Durham in half an hour", or "my lab director wants me prepare some slides for a talk to the neuroinformatics colloquium".

And so it goes.

I came to Duke from South America (and a futbol culture), so this comment rings true to me. I remember wondering who the heck this Mike Krzyzewski was. I didn't even hear about him until a couple months into my freshman year. To most of us foreigners, Duke is a great school and nothing else. The concept of college sports as a big attraction is very strange to a lot of us since many kids skip even high school to go directly into a farm team where I come from. It takes time to get used to and to learn to love.

dukelifer
11-16-2009, 11:30 PM
An ugly game - but Duke played a bit to the level of their opponents. Duke- well Dawkins- missed a ton of wide open threes that would have made the margin 40 or more and lets not forget they were playing a bit slower to conserve energy for tomorrow. This game would have been better if Coastal was at full strength as the game would have had a better flow. Duke played solid but not much to take away except Singler's shot has much improved and Dawkins is not bashful- which is good- despite the misses. Very much looking forward to having Nolan in the lineup.

Edouble
11-16-2009, 11:36 PM
I think if Nolan would have played, we would have won by another 15-20 points.


If a coaching staff consistently never have players develop, then maybe one can point to the staff.

Seriously, you guys... "have" is a verb strictly reserved for plural nouns. Use "has" or "had" for singular nouns. I usually hold my tongue, but twice in one night?!?! Do some of us have a Coastal Carolina hangover?

MADevil30
11-16-2009, 11:49 PM
Jumbo: I love your posts on basketball, and connected stuff. You're a main strength of this board, and delight to read. But your view that Duke should return to the days of kids who all like sports, and are well-rounded, is not relevant to the university any longer, nor has it been for a number of years now. Yao Ming may be king of the Chinese youth idols, but for a Chinese kid to get into Duke means a lot of studying, and the parents don't take kindly to extra-curricular stuff. The fraction of Duke admits as undergrads from overseas has skyrocketed, as the Northeast US kids have been going elsewhere. The Lacrosse hoax killed Duke at the Exeters and Andovers and Deerfields and the like. Those families have not returned nor will they return, or so admissions believes.

Like it or not, the Duke students are now really not the students of the 1990s, or even the early 2000s.

Walking around campus on a Monday, you no longer hear conversation after conversation about "I was sooo wasted this weekend." You are much more likely to hear about how "I have to skip lunch cause I have to do a tutoring session in Durham in half an hour", or "my lab director wants me prepare some slides for a talk to the neuroinformatics colloquium".

And so it goes.

Just so everyone knows before we get too deep into the annual "Cameron/Duke students aren't the same as when I went here; the student section tonight was pathetic, something needs to be done; etc" conversation, tonight was Freshman night, meaning that students 200-800 entering Cameron were all freshman. Seeing as this is only their second game ever, I'm not surprised the crowd was lackluster, so lets please not freak out about it too much. Tomorrow is "Club Sports Night" and I know a lot of teams will be getting "rowdy" outside the doors before tip off. Give it some time folks

CMARTZ
11-16-2009, 11:52 PM
Deal with it, man. They're discussing a basketball game...


Seriously, you guys... "have" is a verb strictly reserved for plural nouns. Use "has" or "had" for singular nouns. I usually hold my tongue, but twice in one night?!?! Do some of us have a Coastal Carolina hangover?

Edouble
11-16-2009, 11:59 PM
Deal with it, man. They're discussing a basketball game...

Deal with the high standards of the Elizabeth King Forum on The Duke Basketball Report. This isn't the Duke message board at CBSSportsline. The great thing about this place is you get called out for spelling and grammar, and you get booted for idiocy, trolling, and disrespect. :)

Dukeface88
11-17-2009, 12:02 AM
Jumbo: I love your posts on basketball, and connected stuff. You're a main strength of this board, and delight to read. But your view that Duke should return to the days of kids who all like sports, and are well-rounded, is not relevant to the university any longer, nor has it been for a number of years now. Yao Ming may be king of the Chinese youth idols, but for a Chinese kid to get into Duke means a lot of studying, and the parents don't take kindly to extra-curricular stuff. The fraction of Duke admits as undergrads from overseas has skyrocketed, as the Northeast US kids have been going elsewhere. The Lacrosse hoax killed Duke at the Exeters and Andovers and Deerfields and the like. Those families have not returned nor will they return, or so admissions believes.

Like it or not, the Duke students are now really not the students of the 1990s, or even the early 2000s.

Walking around campus on a Monday, you no longer hear conversation after conversation about "I was sooo wasted this weekend." You are much more likely to hear about how "I have to skip lunch cause I have to do a tutoring session in Durham in half an hour", or "my lab director wants me prepare some slides for a talk to the neuroinformatics colloquium".

And so it goes.

As a current Duke undergrad, I'll point out that it isn't just academics. There are also meetings for student organizations, and some of us have jobs (yes, even at 7 in the evening; you'd be suprised how many people I know working as lifeguards or as part of the library staff). Beyond that, this is the time of the year when papers are generally due, and when the Seniors are going through the application process for grad schools and careers. Things will get less busy for most students once December kicks in. Besides, we've got 4 home games in just over a week. Even the Crazies have to prioritize.

Now, on to the game. I was really encouraged by Andre's play. Getting double digits from a freshman is always nice, and 33% isn't bad for his second college game. I think Kelly will need some development to be more than role-player, but that's a perfectly respectable place for a freshman to be at. Scheyer's shooting was a bit below average (for him at least), but that's probably more a result of Nolan being out than any fault of his own, and he's always been a bit streaky anyway. Even then he posted another 0 turnover game and went 7/7 from the line, so you can't really complain. I think Zoubek has played smarter this year than last. The box score only gave him one turnover this game (2 vs. UNCG) and he hasn't fouled as much, and having a 7-1 Zoub, 6-10 Plumlee (either one) and 6-8 Singler is going to cause some awkward match-ups for other teams even if Zoub doesn't actually generate many points. Lance getting so many touches was probably another symptom of Nolan and Mason being out; I think once they return he'll go back to being used for specific defensive matchups.

More generally, it's really wierd seeing us play so much zone, although I think it's the right move considering our players, and I think we'll have a very good defense. We'll have a much a clearer picture of the offense after tomorrow's game with a more normal line-up.

JaMarcus Russell
11-17-2009, 12:06 AM
Tonight was Freshman night, meaning that students 200-800 entering Cameron were all freshman. Seeing as this is only their second game ever, I'm not surprised the crowd was lackluster, so lets please not freak out about it too much. Tomorrow is "Club Sports Night" and I know a lot of teams will be getting "rowdy" outside the doors before tip off. Give it some time folks

I graduated only a few years ago, but I don't remember any special nights for the Crazies except for Senior Night. Did these special promotions (Club Sports, Greeks, Freshmen, etc) start this year?

Edouble
11-17-2009, 12:07 AM
More generally, it's really wierd seeing us play so much zone, although I think it's the right move considering our players, and I think we'll have a very good defense. We'll have a much a clearer picture of the offense after tomorrow's game with a more normal line-up.

It is weird, but we may have a different defensive look when our two starters are back. Zone is a great way to save legs, and since two players are unavailable and we have three games in five days, we may be using more zone than we would in the regular ACC season. That said, I know it was reported in the preseason that we would be doing some different things defensively, including playing more zone. I was expecting a 2-3 and was suprised at the 3-2. I like the look of the 3-2. Our guys are so long and tall that it made the driving lanes seem to disappear.

Jumbo
11-17-2009, 12:09 AM
Come on. If you can nicely convince those of us who are less knowledgeable, please do so. Surely you can do more than just be dismissive. This kind of response just builds antagonism. I am just going to assume you're having a bad day. We're all "friends" in some loose sense here, right?

I'm having a wonderful day, and we are indeed all friends here. And I don't want my friends to bring themselves down with silly worries that don't contain an ounce of perspective. Again, Duke beat someone by 25 without 2 of its best 4 players. Nothing more needs to be said on the topic.

Jumbo
11-17-2009, 12:26 AM
Couple of quick points, and then I'll return to discussing basketball before Throaty comes after me with a sledgehammer.


What, exactly? What is to be said?

On the list of priorities for Duke University, recruiting potential basketball fans is pretty low.

Obviously I didn't say, or mean, that Duke needs to "recurit potential basketball fans." What I said was that I believe in attracting well-rounded kids, especially among a group of applicants that are all qualified to excel at an elite university. That's all.


Jumbo: I love your posts on basketball, and connected stuff. You're a main strength of this board, and delight to read. But your view that Duke should return to the days of kids who all like sports, and are well-rounded, is not relevant to the university any longer, nor has it been for a number of years now. Yao Ming may be king of the Chinese youth idols, but for a Chinese kid to get into Duke means a lot of studying, and the parents don't take kindly to extra-curricular stuff. The fraction of Duke admits as undergrads from overseas has skyrocketed, as the Northeast US kids have been going elsewhere. The Lacrosse hoax killed Duke at the Exeters and Andovers and Deerfields and the like. Those families have not returned nor will they return, or so admissions believes.

Like it or not, the Duke students are now really not the students of the 1990s, or even the early 2000s.

Walking around campus on a Monday, you no longer hear conversation after conversation about "I was sooo wasted this weekend." You are much more likely to hear about how "I have to skip lunch cause I have to do a tutoring session in Durham in half an hour", or "my lab director wants me prepare some slides for a talk to the neuroinformatics colloquium".

And so it goes.

Those are some interesting points. Some sad points, too. But here's the thing -- Duke's international population is still just 6%. And how many kids each year every came from Exeter and Andover? C'mon, the vast majority of students still come from public high schools all over the country. Smart, well-rounded kids from everywhere continue to apply to Duke. It all becomes a question of what a university -- and it's admissions staff -- values, and how much emphasis it places on various qualities.

Anyhoo, there's nothing I, or anyone else, can do about that, beyond encouraging students who like basketball to go to the games and students who don't know much about basketball to take a crash-course in it, if they've discovered Cameron and find the subject interesting.

ice-9
11-17-2009, 12:27 AM
No, I imagine this is part of the trend at Duke where it seems like every year, there are just fewer kids who like or understand basketball. It's amazing how many "Crazies" haven't been to basketball games before they've been to Duke. It's amazing how many show up at games, sit in the front and have no clue what's going on the with the game -- rules, situations, you name it. Look, admissions can and should do whatever it wants, but there's something to be said for bringing in well-rounded kids with social skills and varied interests rather than kids who might've scored 20 points higher on the SAT and believe they need to spend every free moment studying.

I think it's incredibly condescending to assume that every kid who goes to Duke should be a basketball fan and should know how to play basketball when they see a game in Cameron.

People have varied interests, and -- blasphemous as it may seem on THIS message board -- people go to Duke for academics first and foremost and to experience basketball...second, fifth, sixth?

Kids want to hang out with their friends, see a movie, maybe play some soccer, practice their cello, go on a date or do whatever it is they want to do.

Why do we assume that if they're not studying they should be in Cameron watching basketball?

That if they're not watching basketball they're underground geeks who don't have a life?

Is hanging out on a message board to talk about 18-22 year olds playing basketball (or 16-18 year olds deciding where to play basketball) evidence of "social skills and varied interests?"

The condescension baffles me.

ice-9
11-17-2009, 12:32 AM
Unless the one guy's name is Larry Bird, or Danny Manning, or Carmelo Anthony... I think you'll find the list of teams that have gone further than expected in the tournament while riding the back of one great player is surprisingly long.

That may be true but I think the list of teams that rely on one star and don't make a big impact in the NCAA tournament is MUCH longer.

Regardless, I prefer a team with 3 stars than one with 1 superstar.

I think we sorta have it with Singler, Scheyer and Nolan, but I do wish one of the three would be more post-oriented.

Mason, you can be that guy!!

huied
11-17-2009, 12:32 AM
But your view that Duke should return to the days of kids who all like sports, and are well-rounded, is not relevant to the university any longer, nor has it been for a number of years now. Yao Ming may be king of the Chinese youth idols, but for a Chinese kid to get into Duke means a lot of studying, and the parents don't take kindly to extra-curricular stuff.

Not really sure what's going on here. As a Chinese kid who got into Duke and recently graduated ('07), I feel like this is a gross generalization about international students, especially Chinese students. I will admit - there are those parents who want their kids to study first and do extra-curricular stuff second. But notice that I just said parents and not specifically the parents of a Chinese kid or any nationality for that matter.

I don't agree with your view that Duke students these days are no longer well-rounded. Most of the people I met during my 4 years were some of the most well-rounded people I've ever met. We spent a fair share of time studying, but we also spent a lot of time rooting for Duke sports and *gasp!* actually playing sports too. The people who spent all of their time in the library were definitely in the minority.

I still believe that one of the biggest draws about Duke is the diverse and well-rounded student body. Duke is the perfect harmony of top-notch academics and great athletics that is almost unrivaled (Stanford also meets this criteria). To say that Duke students these days are a bunch of nerdy Asian bookworms is pretty ridiculous.

That being said, I agree with whoever said it is just the 2nd game of the season. Not everybody comes to Duke having read the Encyclopedia of Duke Basketball, but as the year goes on they learn the ins and outs. Let's give the annual back-in-my-day talk a rest until at least midseason.

Dukeface88
11-17-2009, 12:34 AM
It is weird, but we may have a different defensive look when our two starters are back. Zone is a great way to save legs, and since two players are unavailable and we have three games in five days, we may be using more zone than we would in the regular ACC season. That said, I know it was reported in the preseason that we would be doing some different things defensively, including playing more zone. I was expecting a 2-3 and was suprised at the 3-2. I like the look of the 3-2. Our guys are so long and tall that it made the driving lanes seem to disappear.

I don't disapprove, it's just strange to see it after so much man for so long. The good news is the players seem to have adjusted better to playing than I have to watching.

Jumbo
11-17-2009, 12:41 AM
Tonight, after watching Z get the ball stripped multiple times by a much smaller and less talented team and Lance turn the ball over and over, a question arises.

How is it possible that in 4 years, neither Lance Thomas nor Zoubek have developed any sort of offensive game? I mean, both players seem to play with a lot of heart and seem to have the desire to win. But not even a single go-to move or a semi-consistent jump shot?

We say Coach K is the best basketball coach in the world, but how can it be that under 4 years of his coaching, both Lance and Z are walking turnover machines when they get the ball?

It's not like both are devoid of athletic talent, it's just that they STILL so spastic and uncoordinated. It's hard to not describe this as a failure on the coaching staff.

I really don't like the heat Lance and Z are taking in various corners of the board. In particular, I think Lance has done a nice job adjusting to a totally different role, and should continue to improve as the year goes on. I liked that he looked for his jumper, and it wasn't an awful looking shot. He'll knock down a few important ones as the year goes on, and we'll need him as an outlet to do that.

But (and I'll cover this in another thread at some point), I think some of the issues we're seeing (beyond the fact that Nolan is hurt) are related directly to the absence of Mason Plumlee. It's pretty clear that a large part of Duke's motion offense this year will involve using a big man as a high release-valve against pressure -- enter to him at the top of the key or elbow, let Jon cut off the ball, and allow the big man at the high post (who likely won't be guarded by someone capable of intense ball pressure) make a good decision with the ball -- either a pass to the wing, a dribble, or a hi-low entry.

Mason Plumlee is tailor-made for that role. No one else (with the exception of Singler, who has other duties to fill) is. Ryan Kelly might be able to do that down the line, but right now he has too many areas that need improvement. The absence of Mason is forcing guys like LT, Czyz, and even Miles or Zoubs to catch the ball up high and make decisions. They'll get better with time, but I think things would look a lot different with Mason up there.

I also like what I'm seeing as Duke's offense slowly takes form. Again, I've been trying to envision Nolan and Mason operating in the structure we've established, rather than 4 forwards and Jon. And I like what I see. I'll admit that I'm a sucker for read-and-react, semi-patterned offenses, where movement and screening are encouraged. Don't get me wrong -- I like spread attacks, too -- but it's a really nice brand of basketball when guys are passing, cutting and screening constantly. It's even better when that's happening through continuity, as opposed to a short set play, enabling players to follow general guidelines (simple example: after you pass the ball, flow to the weak side), but enabling them to make decisions based on what they see (simple example: if you sense your man overplaying you, cut backdoor. If he's right with you, screen away). Eventually, this can lead to a high level of play where the team is both communicating and reading one another to make the right plays. And so when I see things like I witnessed against UNCG, where Scheyer entered the ball up high, dragged his man to the block, lulled him to sleep while another pass was made on the strong side, then rubbed off a screen to pop wide open on the wing, where a pass was waiting for him to knock down an open three, I'm really encouraged. Because Nolan Smith and Mason Plumlee are both going to be really good in that kind of a system, and Scheyer and Singler are already fantastically suited to play that way. It gives me hope that the offense will not bog down against teams that might be quicker or stronger or bigger, because there will be so many more options than a high screen-and-roll or a spread attack based on dribble-drives.
It'll be a work in progress, and it will look clunky at times. But if K sticks with this and allows his players the freedom to figure things out on their own, come three months from now, we could really be clicking on an offensive level we haven't seen in a while.

Jumbo
11-17-2009, 12:53 AM
I think it's incredibly condescending to assume that every kid who goes to Duke should be a basketball fan and should know how to play basketball when they see a game in Cameron.

People have varied interests, and -- blasphemous as it may seem on THIS message board -- people go to Duke for academics first and foremost and to experience basketball...second, fifth, sixth?

Kids want to hang out with their friends, see a movie, maybe play some soccer, practice their cello, go on a date or do whatever it is they want to do.

Why do we assume that if they're not studying they should be in Cameron watching basketball?

That if they're not watching basketball they're underground geeks who don't have a life?

Is hanging out on a message board to talk about 18-22 year olds playing basketball (or 16-18 year olds deciding where to play basketball) evidence of "social skills and varied interests?"

The condescension baffles me.

I'm not saying every kid who goes to Duke should care about basketball. I'm not even saying half the kids who go to Duke should care about basketball. Duke has an undergraduate enrollment of 6,500. The student section holds, what, 1,400 people? So if roughly 20% of the student body cares about basketball, that's more than enough to create some rocking Crazies.
Believe me, I'm all about doing all the things you mentioned while in college -- kicking around a soccer ball, seeing a movie, going out on a date, getting regularly plastered -- while still excelling academically. I also think that more than 20% of kids between the ages of 18-22 care a good deal about sports. And when you have one of the great venues in all of sports right there on campus, and only 18 home games, in an ideal world, that's also the type of thing you'd throw on your schedule and plan around. Certainly that hasn't been much of a problem in the past.

BlueintheFace
11-17-2009, 12:55 AM
One thing I have noticed in the last two games is the lack of quality opportunities for Jon Scheyer to get his shot. I think (and hope) this might change with Nolan back.... we will see.

Jumbo
11-17-2009, 01:03 AM
One thing I have noticed in the last two games is the lack of quality opportunities for Jon Scheyer to get his shot. I think (and hope) this might change with Nolan back.... we will see.

I think you're right on both fronts. Given the fact that he's been playing with four forwards, he's had a huge ball-handling burden placed on him. And it has been clear that his focus has been on getting other guys the ball in the right spots. Clearly, he knows that he can score when he has to, but especially this early, with such a new approach, other priorities come first.

Nolan will ease that burden as a secondary ball-handler. Duke can play a conventional lineup. Jon can move off the ball and score. We just saw some really, really weird lineups the last two games, and the guys did what they could to get through a tough situation. Let's hope Mason gets healthy soon and everyone else stays healthy, and that we don't have to deal with such issues going forward.

Oriole Way
11-17-2009, 01:06 AM
No. I find it worrisome that anyone who cares enough about basketball to take the time to post on a message board would even think about being concerned about anything that happened in a 25-point win in the 2nd game of the season where Duke was missing two of its top four players.

I'm going to disagree with you a little bit here and say that Andre Dawkins is and will continue to be one of Duke's 4 best players this season. Not only do I think he is a better/more valuable player, but I think he is more essential to the team's success.

This team desperately needs another scoring option aside from the three upperclassmen stars, especially someone who I believe will be an elite 3-pt shooter (an all-time great up there with J.J. Redick, Trajan Langdon, and Shane Battier), but also a player who has the ability to create his own shot (we haven't seen it yet, but Andre has a decent ability to drive to the rim, but more importantly, all he needs is one screen and he has a 3-pt shot opportunity). Dawkins will demand opponents' attention on the offensive end, which will allow the team to spread the floor better and create opportunities for others.

Obviously we have not seen Mason in game action yet, but I do not believe that Mason will be able to create his own shot to the same degree that Andre will. I expect a bulk of Mason's offense to come on putback opportunities and alley-oop dunks, and I also expect Mason to deal with foul trouble throughout the season. As his older brother can attest to, ACC referees and refs in general absolutely love to blow the quick whistle on Duke freshmen big men. I also believe Mason will be impeded by his inability to absorb contact and finish strong in the post, especially once ACC play comes around the the talent-level and size of opposing big men increases substantially. I do expect Mason to be a potential game-changer in the post on the defensive end of the floor, but whereas Miles can fill post needs on both ends of the floor with some of the same skills that his brother has, no one else on the team aside from Nolan Smith and Kyle Singler provides the offensive weapons which Dawkins brings to the table. With all that said, I really believe that Andre Dawkins coming to Duke a year early was the best thing to happen to Duke in a long time, and he will make a huge difference in this team's performance over the duration of the season. Either way, I'm glad that Duke has two such talented freshmen coming into the program.

That gets me to some of my impressions of the team so far and of tonight's game. As you mentioned, Jumbo, it's tough to gauge this team thus far based on two games against drastically inferior opponents without 2 vital players. But we still have some limited information to deal with and impressions to share as a result.

This Duke team will only go as far as it's offense takes it. Offensive efficiency is going to be the key for this season. Limiting turnovers and developing a post presence that can be counted on for some occasional scoring will be the two most important factors in determining how successful Duke's offensive approach will be, because the team absolutely needs to provide support for the Big 3 of Singler, Smith, and Scheyer.

As far as limiting turnovers, Lance Thomas is turning over the ball with alarming regularity and that trend cannot continue. Hopefully it's more of a result of being down 2 key players, but Thomas has killed our offensive flow and efficiency with 10 turnovers in 2 games. I fully expect that to be addressed and corrected, but it's still some cause for concern. I love a lot of what Lance does on the floor - his defensive versatility, his leadership, his extremely high FG% - but I hope he makes quicker, smarter decisions when he has the ball on the offensive end than he's shown thus far. It's a minor concern at this point, but it's something a senior leader needs to take into account.

I'll be looking intently to see how Miles Plumlee performs in the early going. I would like to see him get more touches going forward, because I believe he is our best hope for a consistent offensive post threat - even if it's only 6-10 points per game. Brian Zoubek is a lost cause at this point, and has been for quite some time. Zoubek will be valuable for some spot minutes in situational matchups, but he continues to make several mistakes that he did when he was a freshman. Even though I have come to terms with the big guy never being more than a role player, watching him get stripped in the post by a player half a foot shorter 4 feet away from the basket tonight probably epitomized 4 seasons of Zoubek frustration for me. I really hope he gets no more 8-10 minutes a game once the conference play rolls around, barring injuries to the other post players, knock on wood.

Kyle Singler looks absolutely spectacular. His shot and quickness have improved, and he is playing with confidence on the court. He is hitting both his long-range shots (getting his shots of quickly) and his jumpers on the move, and he continues to rebound exceedingly well in traffic. He looks like an NBA player to me. I haven't seen a Duke junior look this good since Shane Battier's junior season. Unfortunately for us, I can really see Larry Bird falling in love with him, and since the Pacers will most likely be in the lottery this June, I can really see Kyle getting drafted by Indiana in the NBA draft. I hope he stays for his senior season, but I'm really going to closely watch and appreciate Kyle's season as if it's his last.

For me, developing Miles, Mason, and Dawkins will be very important to Duke's prospects in March. We know what we can expect from Singler and Scheyer, and if Smith can take the step forward that many of us are expecting, we will have the foundation of a team that can really make a deep run in the tournament as long as we can avoid further injuries. Getting some help from the supporting cast of characters will be the difference between another frustrating early exit and a deep run that bucks the recent trend of Duke teams in March.

Poincaré
11-17-2009, 01:29 AM
I'm having a wonderful day, and we are indeed all friends here. And I don't want my friends to bring themselves down with silly worries that don't contain an ounce of perspective. Again, Duke beat someone by 25 without 2 of its best 4 players. Nothing more needs to be said on the topic.

Well, perhaps some of you can help assuage your perspective-less friends (kind of like how others have done) instead of shooting them down with summary judgments like these. My thought process, in writing about you "having a bad day" and being "friends", was to invite some analysis from you in a nonthreatening way. Obviously, I failed. Just chalk it up to me being a bad communicator. I really enjoyed the analysis in your long-form posts immediately preceding this one. You can clearly help us out with things like this when you feel like it.

If you know something I don't, then explain it (and hopefully without condescension). Believe me, I'm just itching for reasons to start drinking the kool-aid. I'm not worried about the team because I like worrying. If you can't be bothered to explain it, then let the more patient people on this board do it. We're all smart people here, though our areas of expertise might be different. No one likes to have their intelligence questioned, but most people (myself included) can appreciate a good explanation from a more knowledgeable person.

Here's the thing about Duke grads: we don't accept the words of experts as gospel. Even experts must provide evidence and arguments. If we continue to nitpick an experts' opinion, it's not necessarily because we are trying to cover the sky with our hands or hate that particular expert. We may just be engaging in an honest attempt to discover the truth through dialectical methods. I've heard that it's been endorsed as a good way to learn new things since the time of Socrates...

Of course, if you really were trying to imply that I am an idiot (and it seems that I am not the only one if that is the case) and that's the end of the argument...well, then consider it mission accomplished. In that case, we can just ignore each other and be happier for it.

BlueintheFace
11-17-2009, 01:36 AM
DAWKINS: I don't have much to add to the Dawkins debate except to say that I can already see that he is the kind of kid who is going to improve dramatically from one year to the next. Dawkins with a year of significant experience under his belt is going to be serious business. His body is very obviously going to get more mature and I can already see him picking things up on the defensive end from one game to the next.

DEFENSE: a big part of me misses the pressure man defense, but I have to say I REALLY like how this defense is designed to force teams into jump shots every possession (and when they go inside... Oh My God we are big). I don't get that same level of frustration that I've gotten most of my life when I see a quick guard drive to the rim only for our help defense to rotate a step too late.

NOLAN SMITH: These last two games were fun, but get ready to see a very different team. A better team with more "swagger"... fun times ahead.

flyingdutchdevil
11-17-2009, 04:58 AM
No one in college has so much work that they can't find a couple of hours to do something beyond studying on week night. I'm sorry, the "studying" excuse has never done much for me -- you never have as much free time in your life as you do in college. It's all about budgeting.

No, I imagine this is part of the trend at Duke where it seems like every year, there are just fewer kids who like or understand basketball. It's amazing how many "Crazies" haven't been to basketball games before they've been to Duke. It's amazing how many show up at games, sit in the front and have no clue what's going on the with the game -- rules, situations, you name it. Look, admissions can and should do whatever it wants, but there's something to be said for bringing in well-rounded kids with social skills and varied interests rather than kids who might've scored 20 points higher on the SAT and believe they need to spend every free moment studying.

I apologize for being one of those "Crazies" who hadn't been to basketball games before coming to Duke. Where I lived, basketball wasn't big at all and, I clearly wasn't a "well-rounded kid with social skills and varied interests". Wow...

I became a huge basketball fan and went to as many games as possible my junior and senior years. However, if I had a test or a paper due, which on a Tuesday in mid-November isn't that uncommon, I wouldn't go to the game. Plus, a game isn't a two-hour commitment - it's a lot more. Getting their at least an hour early, the two-hour game, getting home - it all adds up. On top of that, games are exhausting - it's not easy going to a game and then going to the library.

A lot of my friends were huge basketball fans and, more importantly, huge Duke basketball fans coming into college. A few played on AAU teams and prep school teams. Yet, very few actually went to these types of games. It's completely unrealistic to expect CIS to be filled this early.

All in all, I think people are making too big a deal of CIS being "not filled to capacity" this early in the year. We are the best b-ball fans in college hoops, and that won't change.

oldnavy
11-17-2009, 07:17 AM
Well, perhaps some of you can help assuage your perspective-less friends (kind of like how others have done) instead of shooting them down with summary judgments like these. My thought process, in writing about you "having a bad day" and being "friends", was to invite some analysis from you in a nonthreatening way. Obviously, I failed. Just chalk it up to me being a bad communicator. I really enjoyed the analysis in your long-form posts immediately preceding this one. You can clearly help us out with things like this when you feel like it.

If you know something I don't, then explain it (and hopefully without condescension). Believe me, I'm just itching for reasons to start drinking the kool-aid. I'm not worried about the team because I like worrying. If you can't be bothered to explain it, then let the more patient people on this board do it. We're all smart people here, though our areas of expertise might be different. No one likes to have their intelligence questioned, but most people (myself included) can appreciate a good explanation from a more knowledgeable person.

Here's the thing about Duke grads: we don't accept the words of experts as gospel. Even experts must provide evidence and arguments. If we continue to nitpick an experts' opinion, it's not necessarily because we are trying to cover the sky with our hands or hate that particular expert. We may just be engaging in an honest attempt to discover the truth through dialectical methods. I've heard that it's been endorsed as a good way to learn new things since the time of Socrates...

Of course, if you really were trying to imply that I am an idiot (and it seems that I am not the only one if that is the case) and that's the end of the argument...well, then consider it mission accomplished. In that case, we can just ignore each other and be happier for it.

You were questioning the low scoring and margin of victory if I recall correctly and you referenced the teams from earlier in the decade as examples of what you expect. The first thing I would say, is those teams had a kid named Jay Williams. With him we ran a little different style of play. Much more up tempo, so that accounted for the scoring differentials. We haven't had a player of his caliber since.

Maybe next year when KI comes we will go back to that style. With Scheyer running the point, we are not going to "get after it" and push the ball up. That makes for a lower scoring game, and with that will come lower margins of victory, but the key word here is VICTORY.

I think that Nolan will have a significant impact on the offense when he comes back tonight. So don't stress over the two games so far, there really is no need to.

As for the MODS, I think that they get really tired of people questioning every aspect of the team, the staff, the fans, etc... no matter the outcome of the game or in the case last year the season. I understand their frustration. I will say that in your defense, I did not read your post as one that was whinny or histrionic, but there are plenty of posters out there that do nothing but pick the program apart no matter what. I have found the MODS to be fair in my limited dealings with them, so just write this on off as a "failure to comminicate".

Saratoga2
11-17-2009, 08:38 AM
Based on the CC game last night, it will be interesting to see who the starters will be going into the next game. Three are clearly going to start and play a lot of minutes:
Singler
Scheyer
Smith

The other two are not as clear;

Will Plumlee start at center or will Zoubek? Plumlee looks to have the edge to me for starting as well as minutes.

Who will start in the remaining position? I am not sure what to label it since the player chosen could have a lot to do with how the position is played. It could be Dawkins or it could be Thomas. If Dawkins is looked on as a sub for Smith/Scheyer then perhaps Thomas will start. Thomas certainly didn't play his best game last night.

I see Czyz, Kelly and Zoubek getting moderate minutes as subs

davekay1971
11-17-2009, 08:57 AM
Always fun to come in the next day and see how the post-game thread has meandered...

Back to the actual game, I found it a difficult game to break down. We were playing a small team using a fair amount of junk defense, both teams were playing without key elements. The game felt like it never got much of a rhythm going.

The best I could take away from the game is that Jon Scheyer is a basketball god (what's the NCAA record for most consecutive minutes played without a turnover?), Kyle Singler is going to be a scoring machine this year, our backcourt got a LOT deeper when Andre Dawkins decided to come a year early, and Duke's combination of size, quality guard play, and basketball smarts has the potential to lead to some beautiful half-court offense this year.

roywhite
11-17-2009, 09:07 AM
The best I could take away from the game is that Jon Scheyer is a basketball god (what's the NCAA record for most consecutive minutes played without a turnover?), Kyle Singler is going to be a scoring machine this year, our backcourt got a LOT deeper when Andre Dawkins decided to come a year early, and Duke's combination of size, quality guard play, and basketball smarts has the potential to lead to some beautiful half-court offense this year.

The thing that strikes me early on is how our interior defense is improved. Since Shelden departed, it seemed that once teams penetrated, they often get easy looks at the basket inside. Now these shots are being contested...yes, it's early and against lower opponents, but this is encouraging. Miles P. is coming on as a shot-blocker and defender, and brother Mason could do the same when he returns to the lineup. Kyle had a couple of blocks last night and he should be able to do some of that since he won't be matched up against big, strong guys and can free-lance to some degree.

An interesting team, which will get more formidable with the addition of Nolan and then Mason P.

A different group and look, but it will be fun to see how it comes together.

superdave
11-17-2009, 09:10 AM
No fast break points last night...hopefully that changes with a Smith/Scheyer/Dawkins lineup tonight. Easy buckets are necessary.

I do think Dawkins and MP1 are going to be significant pieces.

whereinthehellami
11-17-2009, 09:12 AM
DEFENSE: a big part of me misses the pressure man defense, but I have to say I REALLY like how this defense is designed to force teams into jump shots every possession (and when they go inside... Oh My God we are big). I don't get that same level of frustration that I've gotten most of my life when I see a quick guard drive to the rim only for our help defense to rotate a step too late.

Granted its early but I've seen too many easy buckets given up down low with the size that Duke has. It really bothers me to see Zoobs get drawn away from the hoop on defense, only to have the opposition than have a clear lane to the hoop for an easy score.

Also the team outrebounded CC 40-34 last night. That is way to close for the size differential that Duke has. Singler almost had twice as many rebounds as Zoobs, Miles, and Thomas. Singler is Duke's best rebounder and only really good rebounder IMO. I'm hoping Mason can really clean the rack. Rebounding is a skill. Its about more than just size and heart. The positioning of Duke's frontcourt players on rebounds and defense needs alot of work. Zoobs and Thomas just seems to have hard time with it. I was hoping the light would really come on as seniors but it hasn't. It is what it is. They will be valuable role payers just not anything more than that.


We are the best b-ball fans in college hoops, and that won't change.

I've always found it funny that fans think they are the best in the country. There are alot of fanbases that think they fit this billing. In Duke's case I think Coach K, the small confining court, and TV are the big reasons that the fans get into the game. Take away one of those three and where do the Duke fans rate?

HCheek37
11-17-2009, 09:18 AM
Tonight, after watching Z get the ball stripped multiple times by a much smaller and less talented team and Lance turn the ball over and over, a question arises.

How is it possible that in 4 years, neither Lance Thomas nor Zoubek have developed any sort of offensive game? I mean, both players seem to play with a lot of heart and seem to have the desire to win. But not even a single go-to move or a semi-consistent jump shot?

We say Coach K is the best basketball coach in the world, but how can it be that under 4 years of his coaching, both Lance and Z are walking turnover machines when they get the ball?

It's not like both are devoid of athletic talent, it's just that they STILL so spastic and uncoordinated. It's hard to not describe this as a failure on the coaching staff.

I definitely agree with this and it begs the question why does Coach K have no post presence in his coaching staff? It has to be tough for Wojo, Collins, James, Carrawell, etc to coach and develop post players when they played very little to 0 minutes in the post themselves. Of all years where I'd love to see coach K bring a post guy in to help bring along the big guys. This is the year where the post guys will play the biggest part of this team's success.

Several notes from the game:

Singler really has a nose for the rebound, several times he was in an unconventional spot but was in perfect position to grab the board.

Kelly played better, and got some good looks from 3. Those will fall and he hopefully will play a decent role off the bench.

Dawkins looked comfortable at the point and definitely was ready to fire the 3. He is much further along than I would expect for someone who normally would be a senior in HS right now.

One play that really stuck in my head from the game was the succsesful high-low play late in the 2nd half between Plumlee and Kelly (I believe). This may be a play that is run alot for our post guys that do not have many of their own moves to get them some good looks.

All in all, I'd give the team a 7/10 for the win. Scheyer didn't get many good looks and other than Singler, no one was overly impressive. Back at it tonight against a more formidable opponent.

LETS GO DUKE

Highlander
11-17-2009, 09:28 AM
I don't mean to bag on Lance, but he is turning the ball over way too much for my tastes. He had 5 turnovers last night for the second game in a row, against grossly inferior competition, and that's unusual for a senior. Both nights Duke had 12/13 turnovers, so Lance accounted for over a third of our giveaways. In addition, he doesn't finish well at the rim and is not a strong rebounder, so he makes up for that by being a superior ball defender and above average passer. In addition, his FT shooting has greatly improved from last year.

However, necause he is not an offensive threat, he has to be a strong contributer in most other areas of the game, and the consistent turnovers just detract from that. By my count he's been called for travelling at least THREE TIMES already this season, so the discussion about his lack of footwork certainly seems relevant. I hope as Jumbo said this is due to him playing a hi/lo role on the court that he's not comfortable with yet.

It's like a QB who constantly throws interceptions. He could throw for 300 yards and 3 TDs, but if he has 5 INTs in 2 straight games, he'll probably cost his team the game. And yes, I did just compare Lance Thomas to Jake Delhomme ;)

dukeENG2003
11-17-2009, 09:31 AM
wtf was up with Coastal Carolina's band and cheerleaders and mascot being there? That really bugged me. I really wanted to see a good ole fashioned Mascot fight. My money is on roid-rage small headed devil.

OK performance, didn't blow me away, but given Nolan's absence, I can understand. One thing I'd like to see more is for Olek, Ryan, and Andre to DRIVE the ball. Not necessarily just go straight to the rim, but take a dribble in, see what happens.

Although Andre didn't shoot well, I hope he doesn't stop shooting those shots. He was open, he needs to take those.

theAlaskanBear
11-17-2009, 09:34 AM
Yeah not a pretty game, but you gotta win your fair share of those too. Duke got it done.

1. Playing against the triangle and 2 really threw Duke for a loop starting the game. I actually like this defensive alignment against teams with a couple good guards and only average big men. I think it really disrupted our passing game.

2. We need to practice getting the ball into the post. Other than that Kelly pass, our guys really struggled with getting the ball into the paint.

3. If we played a team that shot well, this could have been an upset.

That said, I cant wait to see the team tonight!

Pernell
11-17-2009, 09:39 AM
First off, Singler looks nothing like Adam Morrison. Singler's
cut is more of a....well I can't even really describe it. Different, but not
worth really focusing on.

I really like this kid Dawkins. Yeah he was kind of jacking up 3's when he first got in, but I like his confidence in taking them. Even after he missed the first three(and granted he missed a couple more afterwards) he still had the same confidence/swagger that he was going to make the next one. And more importantly, he didn't look to the bench to see if Coach K was okay. He just played. Often in years past, players looked to the bench after a bad play--sometimes for good reason as Coach can at times have a quick hook--and be a little hesitant out there. I really like what I saw in this kid. Hopefully he'll continue to improve.

Since I had never seen Olek play much, I didn't know what to expect, but I thought he was pretty good. Definitely athletic and with his athleticism he should be able to get his shot to fall---but that will take a little time.

Singler is well....he's just Singler. He always comes to play and is the leader on this team. Made some deep threes and showed improvement around the basket. Hopefully he'll stay around another year. Love his confidence as well...

Pernell
11-17-2009, 09:42 AM
Oh, I forgot to say something about my Jersey boy Lance.

I'm really at a loss for words. Like Highlander mentioned above, too many turnovers. His postgame is still a little lacking to say the least. I'm just amazed of his level of development. That's about all I'll say. But I guess I will say he seems to be giving a lot of effort.

should_be_working
11-17-2009, 09:45 AM
I don't have much to add as most people have touched on most of it anyway, but I'd like to give some props to CC. They came out with a very good game plan against us and did not seem phased in the least to be playing a top ten team at Cameron. They were poised, and prepared for what we were doing. Had they made more shots (mostly open looks) the score would have been much closer. Those kids played hard and their coach deserves some credit.

It all changes tonight though when Nolan comes back.

jgehtland
11-17-2009, 09:50 AM
Several folks have noted that Andre was jacking up threes with abandon when he entered the game. I'm convinced he was doing that because K told him to -- that triange-and-2 was messing with our offensive flow, and the only way to nullify it was to have a third wing option break it open. With the and-2 stuck to Scheyer and Singler, somebody else had to move in and take those open threes. With Smith in the lineup, that would have been him taking them, but I can almost guarantee K sent Dre in with the words "green light" ringing in his ears.

Other than that, this game told me three important things I didn't really believe until tonight:

1) Jay Bilas is just flat out wrong. No way there are 10 players better than Singler in the country. None.

2) Miles plays better when Mason is around. His confidence is 2x when his little brother is in uniform. I can't say I understand it, but that's what it looks like to me.

3) Nolan is going to WAKE SOME PEOPLE UP. The announcers kept saying "well, Duke is going to need one of Dawkins, MPII or Kelly to step up because the great teams all have 3 really good players, and Scheyer and Singler need help." I don't remember them once mentioning that Smith could play that role. Having seen him preseason, I think his confidence is going to be an enormous asset to the team and people are going to get surprised.

jgehtland
11-17-2009, 09:53 AM
Those bemoaning that he "hasn't developed"......

I'll grant you that he turns the ball over in the post too much. But here is the list of things he does now that he didn't do as a freshman:

1) hit his freethrows
2) rebound in traffic
3) not make me cringe when he shoots the elbow jumper
4) *guard every single position on the floor*

In retrospect, I don't think he has lacked development. I think he's been playing out of position for four years.

RepoMan
11-17-2009, 09:59 AM
I definitely agree with this and it begs the question why does Coach K have no post presence in his coaching staff? It has to be tough for Wojo, Collins, James, Carrawell, etc to coach and develop post players when they played very little to 0 minutes in the post themselves. Of all years where I'd love to see coach K bring a post guy in to help bring along the big guys.

Just awesome.

We have almost touched on all the annual themes in one thread. Nice effort. Clearly, the Board is in mid-season form.

Duvall
11-17-2009, 10:01 AM
I definitely agree with this and it begs the question why does Coach K have no post presence in his coaching staff? It has to be tough for Wojo, Collins, James, Carrawell, etc to coach and develop post players when they played very little to 0 minutes in the post themselves.

I really like the new twist; adds an extra air of absurdity.

Indoor66
11-17-2009, 10:11 AM
I want to see Andre do athletic dunks in games, sort of in a way Gerald does it. The dunks that I've seen in video clips are just incredible! I'd like for him to showcase it!

I would like to see him score on 45+% of his shots taken, from wherever. Dunks count as 2 points. Style is not a factor.

NYDukie
11-17-2009, 10:17 AM
Overall I thought it was a OK performance. Always tough to judge a team the first few games out of the block when they are meshing in new players, playing around injuriers/suspension and against a inferior opponent who has nothing to lose. I won't get into every aspect but here are a few of my comments. Please feel free to add or critique as wanted.

1. I actually liked how Dawkins performed and wasn't afraid. Too often, especially at the guard position of late, I have felt like the freshman have always played hesitant and with the appearance of looking over their shoulder when either making a mistake or shots not falling. I even felt Kelly was ok in this aspect but not with the overall confidence Dawkins had. I think we need more of this from the underclassmen in general, this year and forward and Dawkins hopefully will continue to do so and provide this example. We need this more than ever this year given our lack of guard depth.

2. Kyle was the man and will have to be the man all year. Granted, this was Coastal Carolina but we all know that he offers so much vast abilities that he can do so many things on the court only probably a few can do on a regular basis in the country. Scheyer was rock solid as usual, but Kyle is our thoroughbred.

3. Miles was active and seemed much more sure of himself. If he can be like this on a regular basis, say 10 pts 7-8 rebs and solid defense, his contributions will be tremendous.

4. Due to MP2 and Nolan being out, there was much more liberal use of the players. Hopefully, Coach K will continue to utilize and build the bench. IMO, too often have I seen it start out like this only to see the rotation limited once a tight big non-confernce game is played in December or during our first couple of ACC games, thus losing the confidence built in players. I'd rather see us lose a battle in order to win the war (i.e. continue to rotate guys into real game scenarios rather than mop up detail). Let's see what a Kelly, Olek and Dawkins can do against a UCONN for example if we both get there next week both during the first and second halves and build them up, even if we lose. I'm a big believer in first hand experience and hopefully they will see it.

So there you go, feel free to agree, add some points or blast away in disagreement.

moonpie23
11-17-2009, 10:27 AM
flow........flow of the game, peeps......they're figuring it out. It takes a bit of GAME SPEED experience to get into the flow of the game.

I dvr'd the game cause i had to work till 2 this morning, so, i turned it on and then logged on to read all y'all's comments while the game was running...kinda weird... you should try it sometime......(it's also kind of surreal to turn the tv sound down and listen to bob harris on the radio...it leads the tv action by about 2 seconds.....so bob says "singler for 3 BOTTOM !!!!!!" right when you are looking at kyle pulling up for the shot)

i had read a few of the lance posts and starting just keeping an eye on him. I saw him make a stuff, and turn-around spin move for a basket and some good defensive moves......i know he's not off the chain, but one can hardly say he doesn't have the physical development to add contributions.

i LOVED watching andre...he is fast, smooth and he WILL be off the chain. Kyle looked amazing and john looked like the mother hen trying to sew it all together for the rest of the team....keeping a watchful eye out for who's doing what.

I love kelly's game and i think Mp1 is coming around.....i had noticed last friday night that he has had a lot of "near misses" on scoring.....good moves, good possesions, then missing an easy lay in....he's looking to make them more high percentage shots now...

NO ONE wants to see olek get his game on like me....i would love to see him become a threat with the short jumper.

ok, NOLAN SMITH, no more playing pick up games with euro-pros for YOU.... Now get back to work and get this machine smoothed out !!


GO DUKE

blu62
11-17-2009, 10:33 AM
Are the best because of their creativity, humor, passion and energy. CIS size and the students' access to the best seats are also a factor. I was glad to read that this was freshman night. Hopefully, that explains the newspapers which seemed so UMd (whose students are also passionate, but not in a good way.)

Come on guys, these kids need a little time. From TV land, they were very loud and active. I observed some leadership and see very strong potential.

moonpie23
11-17-2009, 10:35 AM
was it just me? or does the new lighting make the court EXTREMELY bright and color concentrated? (on TV) or was that just LAST night's crew...?

airowe
11-17-2009, 10:44 AM
Everyone's pretty well touched on the quantifiables in this game so I'll leave those alone.

What I was really impressed by last night was the intensity of our guys last night. Vocally, Scheyer and Lance are obviously our leaders. It was refreshing to see Scheyer really laying into guys if they were out of position or not giving it their all. He will be that coach on the floor that K always has with his better teams.

Turnovers notwithstanding, Lance Thomas showed me a lot last night. He seemed to take Andre and Olek under his wing and direct them where and when to cut in the motion offense. On defense he was a whole different animal. He constantly wanted to guard CC's best player and had that killer look in his eyes while clapping his hands and screaming in the other guy's face. Great position and footwork as the pont man in the 3-2 zone defense we were employing. None of their guards were able to penetrate with Lance clogging the middle. This had a lot to do with their guys settling for outside jumpers and moving the ball around the 3-point line, killing the clock, and limiting possessions for us.

It was a great game plan by Cliff Ellis to try and take the air out of the ball and yet we still put up 73 points with just 8 guys and two of our most potent offensive weapons in street clothes.

I'm excited about the return of Nolan "Showtime" Smith tonight and to see this well-oiled machine run.

Indoor66
11-17-2009, 10:52 AM
was it just me? or does the new lighting make the court EXTREMELY bright and color concentrated? (on TV) or was that just LAST night's crew...?

Hi Def maybe?

bird
11-17-2009, 11:17 AM
Several folks have noted that Andre was jacking up threes with abandon when he entered the game. I'm convinced he was doing that because K told him to -- that triange-and-2 was messing with our offensive flow, and the only way to nullify it was to have a third wing option break it open. With the and-2 stuck to Scheyer and Singler, somebody else had to move in and take those open threes. With Smith in the lineup, that would have been him taking them, but I can almost guarantee K sent Dre in with the words "green light" ringing in his ears.



I think Lance was acting under instructions to shoot as well. The theme of the night appeared to me to be: "Duke's looking for a scorer other than Scheyer and Singler." That may be a theme of the season.

superdave
11-17-2009, 11:26 AM
Olek looks like he could be a freight train on the fast break. Perhaps with Nolan back, he'll get some opportunities.

I cant wait for the high-low game to take shape though. Olek Singler Kelly and the two Plums can play the high, and all our big men ought to be able to play the low. We could run that a decent bit of the time if it starts to work.

We just need to spread the minutes around to get some of these guys ready for the ACC. Here's hoping the bench is long through Christmas.

Battierfan01
11-17-2009, 11:30 AM
I was really impressed by Andre last night (and Friday night for that matter). I know that he took and missed a lot of shots, but this kid just looks so comfortable and confident on the floor. He has one beautiful looking jump shot and I think that he will be a big scorer for DUKE in the near future.

Azdukefan
11-17-2009, 11:48 AM
I was really impressed by Andre last night (and Friday night for that matter). I know that he took and missed a lot of shots, but this kid just looks so comfortable and confident on the floor. He has one beautiful looking jump shot and I think that he will be a big scorer for DUKE in the near future.

I couldn't have said it any better. I love this kid and the last freshmen I said that about was Singler, before that JJ and before that Loul. I actually thought he turned down at least three open looks that he should have taken. I am just hoping K continues to give him minutes with Nolan returning. Coming out of high school it was said his shot was a notch below JJ's and his athleticism was a notch below G. If that turns out to be true, watch out!

airowe
11-17-2009, 11:58 AM
That play when Andre took the ball up against one of CC's bigs, got fouled (no call) and somehow got the ball to go in off the glass just before he hit the ground reminded me a lot of G.

Once he is able to assert himself a little more and gets used to the speed of the college game this kid's gonna be nasty.

RelativeWays
11-17-2009, 12:35 PM
Seriously, you guys... "have" is a verb strictly reserved for plural nouns. Use "has" or "had" for singular nouns. I usually hold my tongue, but twice in one night?!?! Do some of us have a Coastal Carolina hangover?


You realize that this does not apply to singular pronouns and I don't think the rule applies to the future conditional tense either, like what Nolan Smith would have or would have not done in a game.

RelativeWays
11-17-2009, 12:56 PM
I should say the conditional tense in general, as what Nolan would have done is past conditional, not future. Still, "have" is correct in this case. It is also always used in present tense for 1st and 2nd person pronouns. If you tell someone "I has a Duke education" they may think you "has" delusions of grandeur

Acymetric
11-17-2009, 01:08 PM
wtf was up with Coastal Carolina's band and cheerleaders and mascot being there? That really bugged me. I really wanted to see a good ole fashioned Mascot fight. My money is on roid-rage small headed devil.

OK performance, didn't blow me away, but given Nolan's absence, I can understand. One thing I'd like to see more is for Olek, Ryan, and Andre to DRIVE the ball. Not necessarily just go straight to the rim, but take a dribble in, see what happens.

Although Andre didn't shoot well, I hope he doesn't stop shooting those shots. He was open, he needs to take those.

Seriously? Even though its on our floor, this is a TOURNAMENT. Other teams cheerleaders, mascots, and bands are generally welcome to come support their team in tournaments. Don't like that? Ask Duke not to host opening rounds of tournaments anymore. Somehow I don't think they'll take your concerns into consideration. This wasn't just a regular home game, nothing wrong with them bringing the supporting cast.

whereinthehellami
11-17-2009, 01:24 PM
And more importantly, he didn't look to the bench to see if Coach K was okay. He just played. Often in years past, players looked to the bench after a bad play--sometimes for good reason as Coach can at times have a quick hook--and be a little hesitant out there. I really like what I saw in this kid. Hopefully he'll continue to improve.

I agree with this. Hopefuly Andre can remain consistent with this attitude as the competition gets tougher.


Jay Bilas is just flat out wrong. No way there are 10 players better than Singler in the country. None.

Did Bilas really say that? I haven't been feeling Bilas for awhile and that might just do it for me. It might be time to file Bilas in my worthless air bag file. His career path is reminding me of Kirk Herbstreet's, who let his honest anlaysis go to his head. Kirk got lost in the land of the SEC.

sagegrouse
11-17-2009, 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireOgilvie
I think if Nolan would have played, we would have won by another 15-20 points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam Filter
If a coaching staff consistently never have players develop, then maybe one can point to the staff.

Quote:
Originally posted by Edouble
Seriously, you guys... "have" is a verb strictly reserved for plural nouns. Use "has" or "had" for singular nouns. I usually hold my tongue, but twice in one night?!?! Do some of us have a Coastal Carolina hangover?

Edouble:

RelativeWays has given his absolute opinion, and although everything necessary has been said, not everyone has said it. Now it's my turn.

Inasmuch as "h-a-s" is used only in the third person singular, indicative mood, and present or present perfect tenses, your rule is pretty much backwards. "Have" is used pretty much everywhere else, including the third person subjunctive present tense ("lest he have".... I am truly making this up, but it may be right).

In the examples you criticize, the first one is correct usage ("conditional perfect") if somewhat muddled prose ("had played" is better than "would have played").

The second one is not correct in U.S. usage but would be correct in the UK where collective nouns like "staff" and "team" are treated as plural. But even in that case, the syntax is so twisted that one has to guess what the meaning is.

You should consider sending problem posters a copy of "Gobbledygook has Got To Go," rather than correcting their grammar.

sagegrouse

mkirsh
11-17-2009, 01:26 PM
Didn't see Friday's game, so my quick thoughts from last night:

Zone D- I knew we were going to play more zone this year, but what I was pleasantly surprised about was how good it looked. We covered a ton of the floor, pressured shots, and rebounded well out of it - pretty impressive for a team that rarely played zone in the past (and actually used 1-3-1 more than 1-2-2 last year if I'm not mistaken). They must have spent a ton of pre-season time working on this, and it's showing well.

Dawkins - not going to repeat a lot of what has been said, but I like what he brings, but really didn't shoot well last night. Not sure if it's just getting settled into the flow of the game (junk defenses often have you shooting in situations that aren't "normal" so can mess with your comfort/confidence), or rushing his shot, or simply not getting enough air under the ball (for as nice a form as he has and rotation he gets, he throws a lot of line drives off the back rim). Hopefully he figures it out and becomes a consistent shooter rather than a streak shooter. Would much rather have someone go 2-5 every night from 3 than someone who goes 0-6 one night and 4-4 the next, hopefully AD will get there.

Kelly - after the board seemed to get a little negative on him as the season approached, I was really impressed. He had a good sense of positioning/spacing on offense, and didn't seem hurried or rushed. Probably one of the better passers on the team. May have gotten lost on man D a few times (our man D actually broke down a lot), but looked like he belonged out there, which is impressive to see from a freshman.

Lance - I think Lance is maybe taking too much heat on these boards. I saw some nice finishes around the rim, better body control, better jumper, and great D. If he can hang onto the ball better, he's an upgrade from Dave McClure in the "glue" sixth man role from last year.

Kyle - was very impressed with his off-season progress. Always was a good shooter, but hitting coming off screens, off the bounce, around curls, etc is very hard to do. Not sure if it was just a hot night, but if he consistently adds that to his already solid play at the rim and hittting spot up J's, his offensive game will be as versitale as any player in the country. I was worried that he was close to some over-the-back fouls on offensive boards, so something to watch as he can't spend much time on the bench this year.

Nolan - when he gets back on the floor, I hope he plays D with his hands in his pockets. Last year he picked up a bunch of hand-check fouls 30 feet from the basket and was limited in a lot of games with 3-4 early fouls. Clearly his brings something to this team that no one else can, and also will make Sheyer a much more effective scorer (which we will need) with someone else to take care of the ball. Zone D, dailing back the ball pressure, etc will help, but we really need Nolan on the floor a lot.

SMO
11-17-2009, 01:53 PM
Did Bilas really say that? I haven't been feeling Bilas for awhile and that might just do it for me. It might be time to file Bilas in my worthless air bag file. His career path is reminding me of Kirk Herbstreet's, who let his honest anlaysis go to his head. Kirk got lost in the land of the SEC.

I also noticed Bilas left Singler off his AA list. I'd love to hear why. Jay?

RepoMan
11-17-2009, 02:03 PM
Notably, he selects Ed Davis and Derrick Favors within his top 10, over Singler.

I continue to believe that Bilas, perhaps understandably, bends over backwards to show no evidence of Duke bias.

whereinthehellami
11-17-2009, 02:04 PM
SIR, Did Singler get a T last night? If so, what for?

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-17-2009, 02:10 PM
Notably, he selects Ed Davis and Derrick Favors within his top 10, over Singler.

I continue to believe that Bilas, perhaps understandably, bends over backwards to show no evidence of Duke bias.

It is understandable to try an not show a Duke bias, but to flat out say Kyle would not be a first or second team all-american is crazy.

sagegrouse
11-17-2009, 02:34 PM
SIR, Did Singler get a T last night? If so, what for?

As I understand the situation, Singler got a personal foul called when jostling during a Coast Carolina free throw. Then, the player at the line took his second shot with no one else at the line (making it appear as technical foul). The the player Singler fouled took his FTs.

There was no technical foul. Inasmuch as I was watching the game at ESPNZone without sound, I was completely confused and had to inquire myself. But then, a Sage Grouse is often confused....

sagegrouse

Greg_Newton
11-17-2009, 02:50 PM
I'm still not sure how big of a contributor he'll be this season, but Kelly looks a TON better than he did this spring/summer, for this reason only: before practices started, he played very timidly and unassertively on defense and on the boards. It was almost like rather than jumping towards the ball/crashing the boards/rotating to contest a shot, he'd kind of shrink behind an opposing player and remove himself from the action.

However, last night he had an intensity and purpose to his movements that was completely lacking before practices... I noticed several times when he swooped in and grabbed a rebound or contested a shot that were just not the type of play he would have made before. With his relatively agile 6-10 frame he can make a solid overall impact on the action (i.e. Kyle) if he plays with intensity and purpose, so it's great to see K's got the fire burning in him a little bit!

jimsumner
11-17-2009, 03:01 PM
"I couldn't have said it any better. I love this kid and the last freshmen I said that about was Singler, before that JJ and before that Loul."

Actually, Redick was a freshman before Deng.

Duke's best freshman between Deng in '04 and Singler in '07 was Scheyer in
'06. I'd be real surprised if Dawkins ends up matching the 12.2 points put on the board by Scheyer as a freshman.

But Dawkins has a pretty high ceiling, combining some pizzaz with solid skills and athleticism. But I predict you'll also love Mason Plumlee before the season is over.

Pernell
11-17-2009, 03:14 PM
Lance - I think Lance is maybe taking too much heat on these boards. I saw some nice finishes around the rim, better body control, better jumper, and great D. If he can hang onto the ball better, he's an upgrade from Dave McClure in the "glue" sixth man role from last year.


And upgrade from McClure. That kid played some solid D as I can recall and while he wasn't the quickest cat, you could tell he had some level of skill and had a level of comfort on the floor. I'm not saying Lance doesn't display a level of skill, he just ridiculously awkward for someone who has been playing b-ball for this long. I mean seriously, I'm just curious what he's been doing during the summers for these past few years. There is no reason why he hasn't developed a quick drop step, head fake, quick dribble, and then take a jump hook, jump shot, layup, or something. Again, he's a Jersey guy and so I have a soft spot for him, but let's be real.

I think someone else mentioned how he yells and directs his teammates. I guess that's all fine and well, but at the end of the day you have to tangibly contribute. Am while I think he does, but just not at the level you would expect after four years of basketball.

gumbomoop
11-17-2009, 03:14 PM
Jon Scheyer is a basketball god.

dk71, your statement reminds me of one of the two most telling statments I can recall over the last decade re Duke players. Early last season, the Playcaller said, of JS: "Jon Scheyer is real good at playing basketball." I prefer his understated praise of JS's marvelous play, but your hyperbole makes the same wise point.

Btw, the other most telling was K on SB: "Just watch Shane. For a few minutes, don't look at anything else on the court. Just watch Shane."

whereinthehellami
11-17-2009, 04:42 PM
As I understand the situation, Singler got a personal foul called when jostling during a Coast Carolina free throw. Then, the player at the line took his second shot with no one else at the line (making it appear as technical foul). The the player Singler fouled took his FTs.

There was no technical foul. Inasmuch as I was watching the game at ESPNZone without sound, I was completely confused and had to inquire myself. But then, a Sage Grouse is often confused....

sagegrouse

Thanks, that was weird. I don't think the announcers ever addressed it (which is not that weird). Coach K did not look to pleased about the ref's explanation and i could hear the ref saying something about #12. I don't know if I have ever seen a FT shooter get consideration like that in the middle of a game.