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View Full Version : Gap between UNC and Duke on the court



Duke79UNLV77
11-13-2009, 04:35 PM
Obviously, UNC has had a strong overall edge the last 5 years. This recruiting class was supposed to be our big comeback, but now UNC has a better class than we do. With Henson this year, then Barnes, then McAdoo, they have top-3 players lined up one after another, with tons of depth behind them.

I know we're co-favoritess this year, but is this just a hiccup for them before their next dominant #1 team? Is the gap widening in the coming years?

Don't get me wrong, I have little respect for Ole Roy and wouldn't want to be a UNC fan, but, then again, we can't just "next play" away the possibility that this was a defining moment for the next few years of supremacy.

Kedsy
11-13-2009, 04:39 PM
we can't just "next play" away the possibility that this was a defining moment for the next few years of supremacy.

Well, I think we can.

Exiled_Devil
11-13-2009, 04:44 PM
Well, I think we can.

Me too.

Can we not have DBR self-implode because we didn't get a recruit today?

Duke79UNLV77
11-13-2009, 05:04 PM
Acknowledging the reality that the decision today could determine supremacy of the next few years (upon UNC supremacy over the last 5) isn't imploding.

I'm a proud Duke fan win or lose and wouldn't want Ole Roy as my coach now matter how much he wins. There are more important things in life.

Still, I don't think "next play" should become a trite catchphrase for ignoring reality.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
11-13-2009, 05:06 PM
Still, I don't think "next play" should become a trite catchphrase for ignoring reality.

You must be new around here . . .

Blueequalslife23
11-13-2009, 05:08 PM
I'm going to say it right now. From the beginning i thought Austin Rivers was the savior we need. He's a scoring machine!! He would be the number one player in this class.

Coballs
11-13-2009, 05:28 PM
I'm going to say it right now. From the beginning i thought Austin Rivers was the savior we need. He's a scoring machine!! He would be the number one player in this class.

Maybe. But he's also verbally committed to Florida, so don't get your hopes up.

Blueequalslife23
11-13-2009, 05:32 PM
true, But he also said the only other school he would consider is Duke. And he said they are side by side. AND Doc has been asking some Duke alums about the school lately...

ice-9
11-13-2009, 05:54 PM
Guys...there was a time when Duke was getting all the players it wanted. Somehow somewhere we simply didn't pick the right talent and that translated to losses on the court.

We lost momentum, whereas UNC gained momentum.

UNC gained it on the back of three players: two speedy PGs and one dominant center. None of those players were rated at the top in their respective classes.

So CHILL OUT, you simply never know how things will translate on the court. Irving could be the next Jason Williams. Hairston could be the next Battier. Let's just wait and see.

We're all on DBR not because we love recruiting but because we love Duke basketball. Let's not forget what drives the cart.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
11-13-2009, 06:02 PM
Guys...there was a time when Duke was getting all the players it wanted. Somehow somewhere we simply didn't pick the right talent and that translated to losses on the court.

We lost momentum, whereas UNC gained momentum.

But that's exactly why folks are so concerned. Barnes in and of himself is a great player and high-character guy who would have been nice to have for 1-2 seasons. Losing him on court is sad but not too damaging, especially if Kyle comes back and we land someone else, be that Roscoe or a 2011 player.

The reason this hurts is that Duke's momentum, which was just gather a tiny sliver of speed after recent speedbumps, just hit a big ditch. Barnes is the epitome of a "Duke kid." Academic all-star, high-character, etc. And K went all in for him. And Roy wandered in late to the party and snatched him away with ease. That resonates in a major way with recruits across the country and speaks volumes about the respective influence of both coaches.

Today hurt Duke in every recruiting battle we'll have for the next several years, and that's what has folks concerned.

Exiled_Devil
11-13-2009, 06:09 PM
Guys...there was a time when Duke was getting all the players it wanted.

When was that?

ice-9
11-13-2009, 06:11 PM
I disagree.

I believe recruiting results trail; they do not lead.

Momentum HAS to be built on the court. We simply need to start going deep in the NCAA tournament to achieve positive momentum in recruiting; when we do, the natural attraction of Duke and hardwork of the coaching staff will "close" the deal.

For example, no one thought Calipari was anything until he started dominating at Memphis. Roy Williams was considered a tournament choker until he started winning at UNC. Coach K was a nobody until his remarkable run of Final Fours.

Hermy-own
11-13-2009, 06:15 PM
But that's exactly why folks are so concerned. Barnes in and of himself is a great player and high-character guy who would have been nice to have for 1-2 seasons. Losing him on court is sad but not too damaging, especially if Kyle comes back and we land someone else, be that Roscoe or a 2011 player.

The reason this hurts is that Duke's momentum, which was just gather a tiny sliver of speed after recent speedbumps, just hit a big ditch. Barnes is the epitome of a "Duke kid." Academic all-star, high-character, etc. And K went all in for him. And Roy wandered in late to the party and snatched him away with ease. That resonates in a major way with recruits across the country and speaks volumes about the respective influence of both coaches.

Today hurt Duke in every recruiting battle we'll have for the next several years, and that's what has folks concerned.

I disagree, mostly. While you are correct that it felt like Duke was gaining momentum for the next few years, and while that momentum took a blow, we still have it. Look at it this way:
Our team this year is better than last year, with fewer holes (Only one: no true point guard)
Our team next year will be even better (unless Nolan and Singler both leave)
And our team the following year will be even better(Rivers, Beal?, mature Plumlees & Irving)
Once recruits start seeing Duke go far in the tourney again, then we can battle UNC for recruits on even ground. Frankly, I am more upset about losing Mason than losing Harrison. This could derail Mason's entire season, although I really hope it doesn't. Barnes will probably be a one and done. Even if he stays two years, UNC won't be the favorite for the NC.

Kedsy
11-13-2009, 08:14 PM
The reason this hurts is that Duke's momentum, which was just gather a tiny sliver of speed after recent speedbumps, just hit a big ditch. Barnes is the epitome of a "Duke kid." Academic all-star, high-character, etc. And K went all in for him. And Roy wandered in late to the party and snatched him away with ease. That resonates in a major way with recruits across the country and speaks volumes about the respective influence of both coaches.

Today hurt Duke in every recruiting battle we'll have for the next several years, and that's what has folks concerned.

My guess is even Roy would disagree with your idea of "ease."

I have never been a high profile recruit, and while I've met a few people who were once recruits, I've never spoken to them about their mindset while they were teenagers. So I don't really know what resonates with recruits, in a major way or otherwise, but I'm guessing you don't really know either.

Why do you think "recruits all over the country" will care even a little bit about where Harrison Barnes chose to play his college ball? How could it possibly "hurt Duke in every recruiting battle," when most of them aren't even against UNC?

What has me concerned is your (and unfortunately many others') predilection for hyperbole.

NSDukeFan
11-13-2009, 09:33 PM
My guess is even Roy would disagree with your idea of "ease."

I have never been a high profile recruit, and while I've met a few people who were once recruits, I've never spoken to them about their mindset while they were teenagers. So I don't really know what resonates with recruits, in a major way or otherwise, but I'm guessing you don't really know either.

Why do you think "recruits all over the country" will care even a little bit about where Harrison Barnes chose to play his college ball? How could it possibly "hurt Duke in every recruiting battle," when most of them aren't even against UNC?

What has me concerned is your (and unfortunately many others') predilection for hyperbole.

I agree completely and doubt very much that Barnes thought one iota about Wright, Patterson, Boynton or Wall when making his decision, like fans have. I don't expect Quincy Miller to be dissuaded by this decision, or Brad Beal or Marshall Plumlee, or certainly any recruit after that. Will it affect Austin Rivers? Maybe, though if he is only looking at 2 schools and looks at the talent assembled at Duke, I think he will have an easy choice.

theAlaskanBear
11-13-2009, 09:51 PM
For comparisons sake: who were the last #1 ranked recruits the last 5-6 years, and how many of their teams won a national championship?

Sure, Barnes will probably be a great player, but that doesnt mean we are going to be dominated by UNC. These UNC teams the past 3-4 years, did they have the number one ranked recruit in the country?

Some people have lost all perspective.

Chill out, Duke basketball is not going to collapse because of the decision of one recruit.

Reisen
11-13-2009, 10:30 PM
We've had plenty of top recruits, including #1's (Chris Burgess and Shavlik Randolph come to mind) that didn't translate into dominating success on the court.

We've also had some horrible luck with both recruits and players, having top recruits never show up, having top players leave after a very short period (Luol Deng, eWill)...

All of that can, and will happen to UNC. They've had good teams, but they've also been very, very lucky the past few years, in every facet of the game. We owned them for an extended period before that.

These things ebb and flow. HB chose them over us, let's not lose sleep over it, and concentrate on how lucky we've been with guys like Kyrie Irving.

_Gary
11-13-2009, 11:20 PM
What has me concerned is your (and unfortunately many others') predilection for hyperbole.

But to be fair and completely honest, Kedsy, that cuts both ways. I could just as easily and accurately say that what has me concerned is some fans' predilection for hyperbole by saying "next play" after another bad beat (whether that be on the recruiting front or the NCAA's recently).

This is crushing and completely unexpected from my viewpoint. I honestly thought this kid was coming to Duke and I think DDD is simply stating the obvious.

BTW, no offense intended to you. I just used your post as a jumping in point.

ice-9
11-13-2009, 11:29 PM
I certainly don't want to see the coaching staff getting complacent, but as fans, there's only so much hand wringing you can do because nothing we say will make an impact on the team. (In the short-term, anyway.)

So why all the anguish? Just keep things in perspective.

There was a time after all when people kept saying Duke doesn't recruit kids, Duke selects them. It's UNC's turn to be regarded in that light.

dukelifer
11-13-2009, 11:36 PM
For comparisons sake: who were the last #1 ranked recruits the last 5-6 years, and how many of their teams won a national championship?

Sure, Barnes will probably be a great player, but that doesnt mean we are going to be dominated by UNC. These UNC teams the past 3-4 years, did they have the number one ranked recruit in the country?

Some people have lost all perspective.

Chill out, Duke basketball is not going to collapse because of the decision of one recruit.

Well they are the following
2002 Amare Stoudemire
2003 Lebron James
2004 Dwight Howard
2005 Josh McRoberts
2006 Greg Oden, Kevin Durrant
2007 OJ Mayo or Michael Beasley
2008 Brandon Jennings/Samardo Samuels
2009 Derrick Favors

No championships- college or pro- Perhaps that trend will continue. Anyone know the last time UNC got the number 1 player?

ice-9
11-13-2009, 11:40 PM
Well they are the following
2002 Amare Stoudemire
2003 Lebron James
2004 Dwight Howard
2005 Josh McRoberts
2006 Greg Oden, Kevin Durrant
2007 OJ Mayo or Michael Beasley
2008 Brandon Jennings/Samardo Samuels
2009 Derrick Favors

No championships- college or pro- Perhaps that trend will continue. Anyone know the last time UNC got the number 1 player?

It does kinda suck that the one year we got the #1 player, he turned out to be a bust relative to the others on the above list.

theAlaskanBear
11-13-2009, 11:50 PM
I was refering to #1 ranked recruits who spent at least one year in college, not those that went directly to the pros or overseas.


But the point stands. high school rankings do not a championship make.

Exiled_Devil
11-14-2009, 12:03 AM
I could just as easily and accurately say that what has me concerned is some fans' predilection for hyperbole by saying "next play" after another bad beat (whether that be on the recruiting front or the NCAA's recently).


I don't think that means what you think that means.

Next Play came from Coach K's book and the 2001 season. It's a philosophy of the Duke Basketball program. A good interpretation is this: what just happened cannot be changed. What can be changed is what we do next. This helps players play the game better by not dwelling on missed shots, and helps the program move beyond individual losses. There is no hyperbole in that.

Someone else made the point already - fans really can't do anything to change the outcomes of recruiting or games. The best thing for all of us to do is say next play and move on to watching this season unfold.

_Gary
11-14-2009, 12:15 AM
I don't think that means what you think that means.


Don't try and "Princess Bride" me. You know good and well what point I was making. If you don't, then... forget it. But we both know you get what I'm saying and it is a valid point. For Coach to talk about "Next Play" doesn't negate the fact that many people are burying their collective heads in the sand and trying to find solace in the "next play" mantra. Saying "next play" is fine, but the "next play" needs to be a successful one. At some point if that's all you can say after successive failures (Wright, Patterson, Monroe, Barnes) then a different play needs to be called instead of just acting like it's no big deal.

Bottom line: today's news was a big, big, big deal. It's the culmination of many "big" deals (i.e. key recruiting misses) over the last 5 or so years. We've come in late and strong with some recruits and missed them. We've come in early with others and missed them (to other coaches coming in late and snatching them away). Sorry, but I guarantee you Coach K ain't happy tonight and he did NOT see this coming for months or even weeks. It's no secret that we all thought we had this kid and this is a pretty big blindside. Quoting "next play" just seems incredibly weak at this point, IMHO.

Respectfully,

Gary

throatybeard
11-14-2009, 12:19 AM
Gary's [extremely tired] Chicken Little routine ignores the fact that, as Exiled pointed out, the attitudes of fans have no effect on the results on the court or on the field whatsoever.

Duvall
11-14-2009, 12:22 AM
At some point if that's all you can say after successive failures (Wright, Patterson, Monroe, Barnes) then a different play needs to be called instead of just acting like it's no big deal.

Okay. What play do we run?

_Gary
11-14-2009, 12:24 AM
Gary's [extremely tired] Chicken Little routine ignores the fact that, as Exiled pointed out, the attitudes of fans have no effect on the results on the court or on the field whatsoever.


Come on, Throaty. I'm not playing chicken little here. There have been some honest to goodness huge misses recently, and today's might have been the biggest of them all over the last 5 years in Duke recruiting. It was a big deal. And it does hurt. How that's "chicken little" is beyond me. :confused:

_Gary
11-14-2009, 12:25 AM
Okay. What play do we run?\

The one where we land Barnes instead of losing him to our arch rival. :p

Duvall
11-14-2009, 12:36 AM
\

The one where we land Barnes instead of losing him to our arch rival. :p

Good idea. When you figure out what that is, drop the staff a note. I'm sure they'd love to hear it.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
11-14-2009, 03:09 AM
I disagree.

I believe recruiting results trail; they do not lead.

Momentum HAS to be built on the court. We simply need to start going deep in the NCAA tournament to achieve positive momentum in recruiting; when we do, the natural attraction of Duke and hardwork of the coaching staff will "close" the deal.

I guess I think it's more of a self-reinforcing cycle where recruiting both trails and leads. Good players lead to on-court success, which leads to good players, etc. We had that going to great effect until 2004 when a variety of factors conspired to knock us back. Until/unless we just get really lucky, I don't think it's reasonable to expect regularly going deep in the NCAAs without some major recruiting victories.

After the '95 fallout it was recruiting (Killer B's) that brought back the on-court success that laid the groundwork for subsequent great classes. The hope was that a Barnes/Irving class could do the same.

Which gets me to this:


Why do you think "recruits all over the country" will care even a little bit about where Harrison Barnes chose to play his college ball? How could it possibly "hurt Duke in every recruiting battle," when most of them aren't even against UNC?

The Barnes battle was a big story, not just at Duke but across the HS/AAU landscape. HS players, coaches, etc. know which programs are hot in terms of winning titles, but also in terms of bringing in big name recruits. For a program that is considered fairly uncool and increasingly removed from the "top tier" of schools, a major class highlighted by the number 1 player would have made a huge difference. Assuming Barnes lives up to his hype our on-court performance would have been improved as well.

Instead, we have the fairly humiliating image of K laying it all on the line for a "Duke-type kid" only to have Barnes choose Huckleberry-come-lately. Throw in some tough Barnes quotes (Roy worked harder, better relationship with players, etc.) and the "K is out of touch, Duke isn't a prime location" narrative just gets further reinforced. The sky is definitely not falling, Kyrie is a big point in our favor on and off the court, and I agree that if we can start showing up for the NCAA's we'll look a lot better to recruits. But Barnes' very public snub carries meaningful weight in terms of Duke/K's reputation. Recruits will hear about that from other coaches negatively recruiting against us and, to the extent that this narrative is present in wider circles, it's a problem for us.

MarkD83
11-14-2009, 04:01 AM
Okay. What play do we run?

The one where we offer Eric Beldsoe and Roscoe Smith at the same time we offer John Wall and Harrison Barnes.

Since we are on the topic of UNC vs Duke recruiting it appears to me that Roy Williams recruiting strategy involves anticipating that players will leave early rather than leaving scholarships open. If I count correctly UNC will have commitments from 14 scholarship players for the 2011-12 season.

McAdoo, Hairston
Barnes, Bullock, Marshall
McDonald, Strickland, Henson, Wear, Wear
Drew, Watts, Zeller, Davis

This means he is anticipating that someone is transfering or leaving early.

In 2011-12 Duke has commitments from 9 scholarship players

Irving, Thorton, Hairston
Kelly, Plumlee, Dawkins, Curry
Czyz, Plumlee

So for 2011 Duke could add Rivers, Beal and Plumlee and still have a scholarship for Smith this year.

In this day and age where the players are exerting more control in the recruiting process perhaps Duke should make more offers.

JaMarcus Russell
11-14-2009, 04:12 AM
FWIW, Eric Bledsoe never got an offer from Duke, and I have read that it had to do with his grades (and qualifying academically quite late in his senior year).

However, I do agree that Duke could certainly offer Smith this year, and if he signs, then a 3-man class could be assembled for 2011. This wouldn't even go over the 13 scholarship limit, even though we would probably have only 11 or 12 players in reality by the time everyone stepped on campus in August 2011.

MarkD83
11-14-2009, 04:34 AM
Yes I understand that there was a question about his eligibility. However, making an offer is always contingent upon being eligible. If he is offered and accepts and does not become eligible it is the same result as not offering.

Keep in mind that Coach K is getting a lot of very good recruits. This board keeps pointing out the misses but there are a lot of good "gets" (Henderson, Singler, Smith, Plumlee (s), Kelly, Dawkins, Irving, Thorton, Hairston.....). My opinion is that even though recruits are ranked it may be very difficult to tell the difference between any of the top 50 recruits. Therefore, tweak the recruiting process a bit. For example, if Smith and Barnes both had scholarship offers in August then when Barnes gets to campus you can make the pitch that you may be our number 1 but we are not going to wait around. Same thing with John Wall and Eric Bledsoe.

JaMarcus Russell
11-14-2009, 04:41 AM
Keep in mind that Coach K is getting a lot of very good recruits. This board keeps pointing out the misses but there are a lot of good "gets" (Henderson, Singler, Smith, Plumlee (s), Kelly, Dawkins, Irving, Thorton, Hairston.....). My opinion is that even though recruits are ranked it may be very difficult to tell the difference between any of the top 50 recruits. Therefore, tweak the recruiting process a bit. For example, if Smith and Barnes both had scholarship offers in August then when Barnes gets to campus you can make the pitch that you may be our number 1 but we are not going to wait around.

Agreed on both counts. I think that most coaches do this to a certain extent, and it's extremely prominent in college football at powerhouses like Texas, LSU, and Florida. The top targets are offered early and many commit within weeks of the previous year's National Signing Day. This prevents handouts to handlers in many instances and kind of serves as a variation of the early signing period for college football.

It's a way to get the kids who want to be at a school the most, while not necessarily sacrificing quality too much because only a limited number of players are offered.

As for Bledsoe, I understand your point about his commitment being moot if he can't qualify. However, I would like to think that Duke has higher standards than just the bare NCAA minimums.

MarkD83
11-14-2009, 04:52 AM
Agreed on both counts. I think that most coaches do this to a certain extent, and it's extremely prominent in college football at powerhouses like Texas, LSU, and Florida. The top targets are offered early and many commit within weeks of the previous year's National Signing Day. This prevents handouts to handlers in many instances and kind of serves as a variation of the early signing period for college football.

It's a way to get the kids who want to be at a school the most, while not necessarily sacrificing quality too much because only a limited number of players are offered.

As for Bledsoe, I understand your point about his commitment being moot if he can't qualify. However, I would like to think that Duke has higher standards than just the bare NCAA minimums.

I promised myself that this would be my last take on recruiting because I was really excited about the game last night and how well we played.

I suspect that some recruits keep Duke (or UNC or Kansas for that matter) on their lists because it does elevate their status a bit. I know that John Wall visited alot and so did Harrison Barnes, but how much more dramatic is it when John Wall says I am going to Ky over Duke and UNC or Harrison Barnes says I am going to UNC over Duke and Kansas as opposed to John Wall saying I am going to Ky over Memphis or Harrison Barnes saying I am going to UNC over Iowa State. (All you Iowa State and Memphis fans can flame away. I am on to thinking about this season.)

Rogue
11-14-2009, 07:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jyuwono
Guys...there was a time when Duke was getting all the players it wanted.



When was that?


I personally think it started with the Dawkins class around '84?? Followed by a slew of players for over 15 years.. Ferry, Hurley Laettner, Grant Hill, Dunleavy, J Williams, Battier, S Williams, Maggette, Brand, Redick, I'm sure I'm leaving out many. If I recall, was it King Rice who was "suppose" to be better than Hurley ?? and wasn't it Crawford Palmer who was more highly recruited than Laettner out of high school ?? Was William Avery a top signee ?

We can't get them all,, and not all are the epitome of a DUKE student,, but over the last 5 yrs it seems we've lost more of the top players than we've gotten. ( IMHO )
I also had a down feeling about recruting following the Grant Hill/ Laettner eras, and Coack K turned it around with J Williams and Battier eras

hood7
11-14-2009, 08:49 AM
Okay. What play do we run?

How about the play where we give the ball to Chris Carrawell and/or Nate James and see if they can win the day with some recruits?

_Gary
11-14-2009, 09:29 AM
Good idea. When you figure out what that is, drop the staff a note. I'm sure they'd love to hear it.

LOL, I'm in no way, shape or form even slightly insinuating that I know what the answer to these recent recruiting misses is. I'm only pointing out what I think is extremely obvious: Roy has our number right now. He's outrecruiting us and it's very disheartening. Clearly Coach K targeted and went after Barnes early and by literally all accounts we were the leader until late in the game. How we lost him is still a mystery to me (he and his mother's comments not withstanding).

Coach and the staff have changed their strategy in recruiting recently, or at least tweeked it a bit (BluePlanet.com, a few more high profile national interviews w/guys I know Coach isn't crazy about - Jim Rome, etc.), and yet we still loose out on a game changer... no, a program changer. I don't know what they should do and I'll bet you the staff doesn't really know what's going on right now. It looks to me like they've done everything they can possibly do but it's not been enough. Perhaps it really is a perception issue like a few people have referred to. I don't know. But I do know some of the changes they've made, like DukeBluePlanet, have been done to try and counteract some of the negative perceptions that are out there. I don't know what else they can honestly do.

Just bummed because unlike some of you who say you felt something bad was coming with this announcement, I really thought we had this kid all the way. And he would have shifted the balance of power in the greater Durham area back into our favor. That's simply not the case now and I'm not sure I see anything on the horizon that will change that back up in the near future. Somehow picking up Roscoe and snatching Rivers from Florida would help, but nothing is really going to make what happened yesterday go right away. It's gonna take a while to get over this one.

For me the bottom line is that I feel bad for the staff because I know they've worked their butts off trying to turn things around in the last few years. They really have had a renewed energy and emphasis to get some game-changing players. And we've gotten some. But we just keep missing out on that one last, key player each year that would really put us over the top. That has to be extremely frustrating to the coaching staff. I'm sure they will take this latest beat and attempt to figure out what went wrong, but if this has anything to do with any type of national perception (and I have no idea if that's true or what form it would take) then we are in for a long, uphill struggle. I don't expect Duke to become the darlings of the media any time soon nor do I expect the "Duke gets all the calls" segments to suddenly transfer to "UNC gets all the calls" segments on ESPN. Like I said, I doubt any of this is the problem. But there is certainly seems to be a pattern at this point of missing on guys we've really keyed in on and needed to complete classes.

All we can do now is focus on the current team and give them our full support. I'll be doing that and not thinking about other recruits from here on out until they've signed their LOI. It's just not worth it to follow the process any more. Too many disappointments and heartbreaks recently have killed that for me. I'm focusing on this year's team and that's it from here on out.

Gary

devilpadre
11-14-2009, 09:57 AM
UNC has been on top because of Tyler Hansborough, Tar Heel born and bred, who was ranked just below McRoberts coming out of high school, and because of Raymond Felton and Ty Lawson. Duke could not have recruited Lawson because of academics, IIRC. Other than those point guards and a freaky good if awkward big guy, the teams would have been pretty even for the past five years. Even with them, Duke held its own head-to-head until last year and even then we won the ACC Tournament.

I can't remember anyone else who was better than Henderson, Singler, Scheyer, et al. So now we have a super point guard coming and lots of good, if not great big guys, although Mason Plumlee could be great if he is as good as the hype. I was also impressed with Dawkins last night. Why not see how it plays out? Ole Roy has two recent NCAA titles to pitch. We need only one deeper run in the tournament than UNC and the world will stop tilting toward Chapel Hell.

dukelifer
11-14-2009, 10:02 AM
It does kinda suck that the one year we got the #1 player, he turned out to be a bust relative to the others on the above list.

Well we got Deng who was 2 below Lebron, 4 of the guys never set foot on Campus. Oden was a mini bust- given his health. Durant an Beasley were very good- but not good enough to take their teams to FF alone.

oldnavy
11-14-2009, 10:50 AM
LOL, I'm in no way, shape or form even slightly insinuating that I know what the answer to these recent recruiting misses is. I'm only pointing out what I think is extremely obvious: Roy has our number right now. He's outrecruiting us and it's very disheartening. Clearly Coach K targeted and went after Barnes early and by literally all accounts we were the leader until late in the game. How we lost him is still a mystery to me (he and his mother's comments not withstanding).

Coach and the staff have changed their strategy in recruiting recently, or at least tweeked it a bit (BluePlanet.com, a few more high profile national interviews w/guys I know Coach isn't crazy about - Jim Rome, etc.), and yet we still loose out on a game changer... no, a program changer. I don't know what they should do and I'll bet you the staff doesn't really know what's going on right now. It looks to me like they've done everything they can possibly do but it's not been enough. Perhaps it really is a perception issue like a few people have referred to. I don't know. But I do know some of the changes they've made, like DukeBluePlanet, have been done to try and counteract some of the negative perceptions that are out there. I don't know what else they can honestly do.

Just bummed because unlike some of you who say you felt something bad was coming with this announcement, I really thought we had this kid all the way. And he would have shifted the balance of power in the greater Durham area back into our favor. That's simply not the case now and I'm not sure I see anything on the horizon that will change that back up in the near future. Somehow picking up Roscoe and snatching Rivers from Florida would help, but nothing is really going to make what happened yesterday go right away. It's gonna take a while to get over this one.

For me the bottom line is that I feel bad for the staff because I know they've worked their butts off trying to turn things around in the last few years. They really have had a renewed energy and emphasis to get some game-changing players. And we've gotten some. But we just keep missing out on that one last, key player each year that would really put us over the top. That has to be extremely frustrating to the coaching staff. I'm sure they will take this latest beat and attempt to figure out what went wrong, but if this has anything to do with any type of national perception (and I have no idea if that's true or what form it would take) then we are in for a long, uphill struggle. I don't expect Duke to become the darlings of the media any time soon nor do I expect the "Duke gets all the calls" segments to suddenly transfer to "UNC gets all the calls" segments on ESPN. Like I said, I doubt any of this is the problem. But there is certainly seems to be a pattern at this point of missing on guys we've really keyed in on and needed to complete classes.

All we can do now is focus on the current team and give them our full support. I'll be doing that and not thinking about other recruits from here on out until they've signed their LOI. It's just not worth it to follow the process any more. Too many disappointments and heartbreaks recently have killed that for me. I'm focusing on this year's team and that's it from here on out.

Gary
Dude, I feel your pain, really I do. BUT, we don't know how this all plays out yet. Sure HB was our main target and "the perfect Duke kid", but let's play a what if game. What if, he doesn't materialize into the player everyone says he will? (McRoberts or going back a ways, Sam Bowie), what if we get Roscoe and he turns out to be the better of the two (i.e., Curtis Hunter and David Henderson), what if this years team puts it all together and gets to the FF, and wins it? (long shot, but possible - picture Singler, Scheyer and Smith going OFF!- huhh? I can see it!:D)... etc..

My point is TODAY this really sucks, and I am as dissappointed as the next guy, BUT Coach K is not one to let this go without learning from it. This probably hit him much harder than we expect, but he is a fighter and he will adjust even more. So, before we write off the next decade let's see how this plays out for awhile. I really think we can sweep the heels this year, and then compete with them next year (within the most likely personnel scenerios being discussed).

Do they have big MO and the edge, sure, but really, the true difference maker putting UNC over Duke the past 3 years was simply Lawson. When he was out, we were the better team (IMO). So it is not like we are light years away (i.e.,the early 70's - mid 80's).

After sleeping on it... I think there are several ways that this all works out for us... but only time will tell. I am not writting us off just yet!

GO DUKE and now more than ever GTHC, GTHHHHHHH!!

houstondukie
11-14-2009, 10:55 AM
When you compare the 3 recruiting classes during the period of 2009-2011...

Class of 2009:

unc
John Henson
Dexter Strickland
Leslie McDonald
Travis Wear
David Wear

DUKE
Mason Plumlee
Andre Dawkins
Ryan Kelly
Seth Curry

Class of 2010:

unc
Harrison Barnes
Reggie Bullock
Leslie McDonald

DUKE
Kyrie Irving
Joshua Hairston
Tyler Thornton

Class of 2011:

unc
James McAdoo
PJ Hairston

DUKE
Austin Rivers?
Quincy Miller?
Brad Beal?
Marshall Plumlee?


The advantage right now is obviously UNC, especially with the Barnes committment and the fact that DUKE has no committments from 2011. But the potential is there for DUKE, despite losing Barnes, to come out on top if we can score big with the 2011 class.

IMO, Roy made a mistake when he pursued the Wear twins over Ryan Kelly and Mason Plumlee. I think DUKE got the better of the deal. In fact, I would argue that DUKE has the better recruiting class in 2009, especially with Seth Curry.

Barnes certainly tips the scale more in favor of unc, but hopefully DUKE will have a senior Kyle Singler to balance things out.

DukeSean
11-14-2009, 11:07 AM
IMO, Roy made a mistake when he pursued the Wear twins over Ryan Kelly and Mason Plumlee.

You would be correct. Here's proof: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/varsitytimesinsider/images/2008/01/04/wear.jpg

hahaha

Rich
11-14-2009, 11:08 AM
...and yet we still loose [sic] out on a game changer... no, a program changer.

I'm as disappointed as anyone, but I fail to see how one likely one-and-done kid is a "program changer." The program changers are the Hills, Battiers, Hansbroughs, and Lawsons of the world. The four year players who make an increasing impact year-to-year. Carmelo Anthony brought a championship to Syracuse, but did not change their program.

The_Greater_Blue
11-14-2009, 11:18 AM
Kendall Marshall is a 2010 commit. Leslie McDonald is only in the 09 class.

Kedsy
11-14-2009, 11:33 AM
really, the true difference maker putting UNC over Duke the past 3 years was simply Lawson. When he was out, we were the better team (IMO). So it is not like we are light years away (i.e.,the early 70's - mid 80's).

I completely agree with this. When Lawson didn't play we beat them in '08 and won the ACC championship in '09.

And starting next year we'll have Kyrie Irving, who hopefully will give us what Lawson gave them. The battle for "Greater Durham" (as Gary put it) supremacy is far from over.

Edouble
11-14-2009, 11:55 AM
Well they are the following
2002 Amare Stoudemire
2003 Lebron James
2004 Dwight Howard
2005 Josh McRoberts
2006 Greg Oden, Kevin Durrant
2007 OJ Mayo or Michael Beasley
2008 Brandon Jennings/Samardo Samuels
2009 Derrick Favors

No championships- college or pro- Perhaps that trend will continue. Anyone know the last time UNC got the number 1 player?

Let's not forget the Olympic Championship.

oldnavy
11-14-2009, 12:10 PM
I completely agree with this. When Lawson didn't play we beat them in '08 and won the ACC championship in '09.

And starting next year we'll have Kyrie Irving, who hopefully will give us what Lawson gave them. The battle for "Greater Durham" (as Gary put it) supremacy is far from over.

Yea, losing HB feels like getting jilted for Eddie Haskell, but after the intial shock, we are in a good place. Besides, I like the rivarly to be intense. I almost got bored with it when we were rolling off win after win against the holes. Ol' Roy, love him or hate him, has changed the dynamic and made things a bit more interesting.

_Gary
11-14-2009, 12:13 PM
I like the rivarly to be intense. I almost got bored with it when we were rolling off win after win against the holes. Ol' Roy, love him or hate him, has changed the dynamic and made things a bit more interesting.

Calling Jason Evans. Calling Jason Evans. He said the same thing when Duke was dominating UNC (the best years of my life as a fan, btw) and now look where we are at. Sorry, but I will never, ever understand that philosophy. I would never get bored watching Duke wax the Holes year after year after year. How any fan can think differently is beyond me.

throatybeard
11-14-2009, 12:15 PM
I just posted the link to chat. We are currently playing for the division lead in Football, on national television, and people are whining and crying about UNC basketball.

oldnavy
11-14-2009, 12:24 PM
Calling Jason Evans. Calling Jason Evans. He said the same thing when Duke was dominating UNC (the best years of my life as a fan, btw) and now look where we are at. Sorry, but I will never, ever understand that philosophy. I would never get bored watching Duke wax the Holes year after year after year. How any fan can think differently is beyond me.

I want to "wax" them (win) year after year too! DON'T mistake my enjoying competitive victories more than non-competitive blow outs as sympathy for the heels. I have none of that! And, like I've said the 8-20 year they had was the best BB year of my life (except that my wife was p/o'd for the whole season).

But! For it to be a rivalry it must mean something, and I think for the rivalry it is better when the teams are closer matched. I enjoy a 1 pt win as much if not more than a 20 pt win. Right now we are in a cycle of being the "weaker" (hard to call a 30 win team weak) of the two, but these things run in cycles... we will be back on top soon - possibly this year!

oldnavy
11-14-2009, 12:25 PM
I just posted the link to chat. We are currently playing for the division lead in Football, on national television, and people are whining and crying about UNC basketball.

Throaty, I'm at work and can't watch the game, but your point is well taken.

Vincetaylor
11-15-2009, 01:55 AM
I disagree, mostly. While you are correct that it felt like Duke was gaining momentum for the next few years, and while that momentum took a blow, we still have it. Look at it this way:
Our team this year is better than last year, with fewer holes (Only one: no true point guard)
Our team next year will be even better (unless Nolan and Singler both leave)
And our team the following year will be even better(Rivers, Beal?, mature Plumlees & Irving)
Once recruits start seeing Duke go far in the tourney again, then we can battle UNC for recruits on even ground. Frankly, I am more upset about losing Mason than losing Harrison. This could derail Mason's entire season, although I really hope it doesn't. Barnes will probably be a one and done. Even if he stays two years, UNC won't be the favorite for the NC.

I pretty much disagree with everything you say. Your statement is full of huge what ifs. I would be shocked if we are better than we were last year. We lost our best player for god's sake. Does no one on this board realize that? I'll start paying attention again if we can make it past the Sweet 16 this year...which won't happen.

Edouble
11-15-2009, 02:01 AM
We lost our best player for god's sake.

I would say that occurs more often than not at the end of the year anyway.

Also, I would debate that that happened this past off season. I would take Singler over Hendo if I had to choose.

mo.st.dukie
11-15-2009, 02:42 AM
I pretty much disagree with everything you say. Your statement is full of huge what ifs. I would be shocked if we are better than we were last year. We lost our best player for god's sake. Does no one on this board realize that? I'll start paying attention again if we can make it past the Sweet 16 this year...which won't happen.

Back at the start of the 05-06 season the Florida Gators were ranked #44 in preseason polls after losing their three best players to the NBA (Roberson, Lee, Walsh). They had some young, unproven big men, a PG who was average at best, a very talented versatile wing player, and very little guard depth. Some how they shocked the world winning back-to-back titles. The history of college basketball has many other championship teams that overcame impossible odds when everyone thought they were not championship caliber.

Duke basketball history has teams that struggled through the regular season still make it to the FF. Will it happen with Duke this year? Who knows, but history has shown us that it is possible even when you do lose your best player, or three, from the previous year. BTW, Kyle Singler was nipping on G's heels for "best player" last season (they both averaged 16.5ppg). And did we not lose our best player from 08 (Nelson who led the team in scoring) and still end up with better results in 09 than 08?

Poincaré
11-15-2009, 03:28 AM
I want to "wax" them (win) year after year too! DON'T mistake my enjoying competitive victories more than non-competitive blow outs as sympathy for the heels. I have none of that! And, like I've said the 8-20 year they had was the best BB year of my life (except that my wife was p/o'd for the whole season).

But! For it to be a rivalry it must mean something, and I think for the rivalry it is better when the teams are closer matched. I enjoy a 1 pt win as much if not more than a 20 pt win. Right now we are in a cycle of being the "weaker" (hard to call a 30 win team weak) of the two, but these things run in cycles... we will be back on top soon - possibly this year!

I'm sorry for being a [redacted], but that's not what "wax" means. Moreover, our ultimate wish should be to crush the Holes 200-2 every game, with the 2 points coming in the final seconds when our boys mockingly retreat to the sidelines for their walk-ons. Your hate is seriously lacking. The appropriate role for the Holes in a righteous universe is as exhibition fodder for NC Central. Let's take 9F a little more seriously from now on. It's "Go to hell Carolina" not "Go to detention this Thursday, Carolina", right?

Just in case it's not clear, I'm not entirely serious, but I stand by the general direction of the sentiments expressed above.

oldnavy
11-15-2009, 08:02 AM
I'm sorry for being a [redacted], but that's not what "wax" means. Moreover, our ultimate wish should be to crush the Holes 200-2 every game, with the 2 points coming in the final seconds when our boys mockingly retreat to the sidelines for their walk-ons. Your hate is seriously lacking. The appropriate role for the Holes in a righteous universe is as exhibition fodder for NC Central. Let's take 9F a little more seriously from now on. It's "Go to hell Carolina" not "Go to detention this Thursday, Carolina", right?

Just in case it's not clear, I'm not entirely serious, but I stand by the general direction of the sentiments expressed above.

Well, you may be right, but I think it is just a matter of personal preference. I like the tight victories more, because in my experience, if you drub the heels, the vast majority of their fan base loses interest and pretends not to care. So it is much harder to torment them, however with a close victory they remain engaged, and then get bitterly disappointed at the end. They usually get very angry and are ripe for some serious harassment. Plus they predictably will claim that we got all the calls, and are the luckiest team on earth, which I think is hilarious. Maybe I am a little sick, but that is more fun for me.

Oh, and NEVER question my Hate for the heels... you have no idea!! It was cemented in my heart in 1974... ;)

NYC Duke Fan
11-15-2009, 08:23 AM
You do not need to get the top recruit or the second or third top recruit to win a championship. Maryland, Florida and Michigan State proved that.

If you do not have injuries , have depth, have an excellent backcourt , and some inside presence you can win.

Does Duke have it? I don't know, but they might. The sky is not falling.

Udaman
11-15-2009, 09:15 AM
The sky is not falling...but the fact is UNC has eclipsed us, and done so badly. They have 2 championships over the past 5 years...we have none. They have three Final Four appearances. We have none. Head to head Roy has a winning record on K (though it's a small sample). I think both are great bench coaches and recruiters, though Roy is definitely better at developing (and using) his bench.

When UNC hired Roy, I was bummed, for two reasons. First, because I always liked the guy, and I hated the fact that a coach I liked was heading to UNC. He cares about his kids. He seems like a great person. He emphasizes all that is good with sports. He reminds me a ton of Coach K. But second, because he was a GREAT coach, and I knew UNC would turn things around.

We have a great coach as well...but which one is better, is clearly up for debate. If I had first choice to get a coach, it would be really tough to not take Roy (and the same would be said about Coach K). They would clearly be my #1 and #2 choice, however.

All that said, the Tar Heels are overrated this year, and will struggle. Next year, though, they will be great, as will we. Both will be ranked in the top 5, for sure.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-15-2009, 09:28 AM
Quality depth is the biggest problem I see with this Duke team.

Past the top three players, Scheyer, Singler, Smith...there is a big drop in play.

There is not a proactive player left. They are all reactive players...meaning other top teams matchups will be taking it to them, as opposed to the Duke player being aggressive and able to dictate play.

Remaining players Dawkins, Plumblee's, Curry, Kelly all have skills and will all get better, even Czyz, but I can't see a major impact from them this year to take you to the level you want to reach. Too young and raw.

This team will ride Singler 'till he lathers up and hits the dirt. He's a heck of a player and that horse can run...a couple of at the wire wins and Duke could get late into the tourney.

If they get past the sweet sixteen this year, they will have exceeded my expectations.

SMO
11-15-2009, 09:32 AM
Quality depth is the biggest problem I see with this Duke team.

Past the top three players, Scheyer, Singler, Smith...there is a big drop in play.

There is not a proactive player left. They are all reactive players...meaning other top teams matchups will be taking it to them, as opposed to the Duke player being aggressive and able to dictate play.

Remaining players Dawkins, Plumblee's, Curry, Kelly all have skills and will all get better, even Czyz, but I can't see a major impact from them this year to take you to the level you want to reach. Too young and raw.

This team will ride Singler 'till he lathers up and hits the dirt. He's a heck of a player and that horse can run...a couple of at the wire wins and Duke could get late into the tourney.

If they get past the sweet sixteen this year and they will have exceeded my expectations.

Curry's inability to play could prevent him from having a major impact this year too!

I agree with regard to your Sweet 16 assessment.

_Gary
11-15-2009, 09:41 AM
Quality depth is the biggest problem I see with this Duke team.

Past the top three players, Scheyer, Singler, Smith...there is a big drop in play.

There is not a proactive player left. They are all reactive players...meaning other top teams matchups will be taking it to them, as opposed to the Duke player being aggressive and able to dictate play.

Remaining players Dawkins, Plumblee's, Curry, Kelly all have skills and will all get better, even Czyz, but I can't see a major impact from them this year to take you to the level you want to reach. Too young and raw.

This team will ride Singler 'till he lathers up and hits the dirt. He's a heck of a player and that horse can run...a couple of at the wire wins and Duke could get late into the tourney.

If they get past the sweet sixteen this year and they will have exceeded my expectations.

I agree with everything you said, Wheat. BTW, and I say this in all sincerity, congrats on getting HB. We all know he's a stud and a game-changer and he's exactly the type Duke desperately needed. But I digress.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your comments about having only 3 proactive players, with the rest being reactive. That's very well said, and unfortunately I think it's very much the truth. Don't get me wrong, I love our guys and always will pull for anyone with Duke on their jersey, but we still don't have the horses we used to have in the stables. I think our Final Four run in '04 was the last year we had anything close to a truly championship-like roster.

We have what looks to be a great PG coming in and that does fill a huge void. So that part seems to be taken care of for a couple of years. We'll still have enough 2 guards that can play as well next year, assuming Nolan stays. And I believe between the Plumlee boys we will have a decent 4/5. But we are going to be lacking a Loul Deng type player who can be proactive at the 3 (I'm talking about after Singler leaves) and we definitely lack a strong inside presence, ala an Elton Brand. We have to address those two issues if we want to get back to realistic national title contention.

I just think we need a little more creativity/attacking both on the wings and with our bigs. I'm not sure we have enough of that at either level this year after our big 3, so as Wheat said - quality depth is still an issue even though we may think we have plenty of bodies.


Just my two cents.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-15-2009, 09:43 AM
Curry's inability to play could prevent him from having a major impact this year too!

I agree with regard to your Sweet 16 assessment.

I was thinking Curry was eligible in January. I'm guessing I'm wrong there?

JDev
11-15-2009, 09:52 AM
I was thinking Curry was eligible in January. I'm guessing I'm wrong there?

That would have only been the case if he had transferred mid-year last year, which he didn't. He transferred in the spring, meaning he will have to sit out this entire season.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-15-2009, 10:12 AM
IBTW, and I say this in all sincerity, congrats on getting HB. We all know he's a stud and a game-changer and he's exactly the type Duke desperately needed. But I digress. .

Thanks, I am obviously glad to see a top player choose UNC. The program is definately hot right now.

I'm a little dissapointed in how I've seen many Duke fans react. But message boards are predictable if nothing else good you can say about them during a time like this. I think the media has unfairly piled on too...but who's surprised about that?

For perspective, he's one player, evidently very good, but one player. It's a ten player game these days.

Coach K and the staff did all they could, but the kids mom named him after MJ at birth....Hello? Think Coach K had a tough sell there?

Texas, Villinova, MSU, KY...they didn't get him either and they have built some really strong teams.

The players to win are out there and Coach K is not lazy or prone to quit. He's a great coach and a proven winner. He will re-focus and move on...and his teams will continue to be competitive with the best in the country.

fwin
11-15-2009, 10:23 AM
Me too.

Can we not have DBR self-implode because we didn't get a recruit today?

Sure, but we have to be realistic at the same time. We've not been able to keep up for several years in recruiting. This manifests itself on the court. This hurts recruiting. We need to open our eyes and recognize the situation.

Only success will reverse this situation and, honestly, I'm not sure where that will come from in the immediate future.

eightyearoldsdude
11-15-2009, 10:30 AM
When you compare the 3 recruiting classes during the period of 2009-2011...

Class of 2009:

unc
John Henson
Dexter Strickland
Leslie McDonald
Travis Wear
David Wear

DUKE
Mason Plumlee
Andre Dawkins
Ryan Kelly
Seth Curry

Class of 2010:

unc
Harrison Barnes
Reggie Bullock
Leslie McDonald

DUKE
Kyrie Irving
Joshua Hairston
Tyler Thornton

Class of 2011:

unc
James McAdoo
PJ Hairston

DUKE
Austin Rivers?
Quincy Miller?
Brad Beal?
Marshall Plumlee?


The advantage right now is obviously UNC, especially with the Barnes committment and the fact that DUKE has no committments from 2011. But the potential is there for DUKE, despite losing Barnes, to come out on top if we can score big with the 2011 class.

IMO, Roy made a mistake when he pursued the Wear twins over Ryan Kelly and Mason Plumlee. I think DUKE got the better of the deal. In fact, I would argue that DUKE has the better recruiting class in 2009, especially with Seth Curry.

Barnes certainly tips the scale more in favor of unc, but hopefully DUKE will have a senior Kyle Singler to balance things out.

It probably won't make you feel any better, but Roy went really, really hard after Kelly. Just off the top of my head, in the 2000's, UNC and Duke both went after the following players:

Deng (I think)
Shelden
Shav
Livingston*
Wright
Kelly
Barnes

There are probably a few others, but just in terms of quantity, K has won more battles against UNC overall, and as many battles as Roy has. (Though you could discount Livingston a bit because QT kinda snuck in there with a commitment, but the point remains.)

slower
11-15-2009, 10:33 AM
UNC has been on top because of Tyler Hansborough, Tar Heel born and bred,

What, exactly, are you talking about? Hans is from Missouri.

Wildling
11-15-2009, 11:55 AM
Coach K and the staff did all they could, but the kids mom named him after MJ at birth....Hello? Think Coach K had a tough sell there?


Funny, you mention that Wheat. Last night I was talking to my father in law who is a life long Tarheel fan, and I was telling him how much Roy is just killing my mojo the past couple of days in regards to Barnes.

And he said the same thing to me about his mom naming him after Jordan, which I didn't know before his decision. He also mentioned he was born in North Carolina too but didn't specify where and how long he was here before he moved to Iowa.

Honestly, I stopped listening to him after the naming him after Jordan comment. My mind starting going in reverse thinking I wish I knew that before his decision on Friday, would have put this recruiting battle in a better perspective for me,lol.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-15-2009, 12:55 PM
Putting together a great team is a puzzle, for every coach and program.

The pieces are always changing, whether it's the minds or skill of a 17 to 21 year old kid, an athletic department budget, or keeping up with new media.

Transfers, injuries, personalities etc...it's a difficult game to play, especially when you don't take short cuts.

I don't think many of the fans who are so "the sky is falling" appreciate just how tough it is.

Yes, the staff made some evaluation errors the past few years. But they were also unlucky with a few breaks...(E-Will situation, for instance).

Live and learn, adjust and move forward. UNC had to re-group from the turmoil of 8-20 and coach Doh. Duke is not even close to that sort of low point in the program.

In my business, which is also about evaluation and execution, you can't worry about the one that got away, you worry about how and where to get the next bite.

Way too many times the big ones seem to get away...

Coach K...I feel ya! :)

Ultrarunner
11-15-2009, 01:08 PM
I pretty much disagree with everything you say. Your statement is full of huge what ifs. I would be shocked if we are better than we were last year. We lost our best player for god's sake. Does no one on this board realize that? I'll start paying attention again if we can make it past the Sweet 16 this year...which won't happen.

I pay attention even if we have a repeat of 1995.

And our best player is still on the team. And our second best. I love G but all too often he would drive into traffic without a clue what he was goind to do if he didn't get to the rim. Frequently, he was a black hole in the offense - the ball went to G and never came back.

This team is more athletic than last year, even on the perimeter, and has much better passing and movement (so far). It also has better long range shooting and more good, though not great, options inside. It's a very solid team that is decidedly better than last year.

And everybody keeps crying the blues about UNC (9F!) being better on the court. Could we play this season first before we cauterwaul and capitulate? I'm expecting to beat the Tarheels (9F!) twice this year. They're defense will not be much improved from last year and their offense significantly worse.

Kedsy
11-16-2009, 12:23 AM
I'll start paying attention again if we can make it past the Sweet 16 this year...which won't happen.

This is one of the more repulsive things I've read on these boards. Putting aside your blatant negativism, and the fact that you claim not to be paying attention while you take the time to post on a message board, if you can only be bothered to "pay attention" when your team goes to the Final Eight or beyond then not only are you not a fan, but who would want you as a fan? I'm assuming for the moment you don't have ADD, in which case it might be best for all concerned if you just go ahead and find some other team and attempt to pay attention to them.

Edouble
11-16-2009, 12:47 AM
This team is more athletic than last year, even on the perimeter, and has much better passing and movement (so far). It also has better long range shooting and more good, though not great, options inside. It's a very solid team that is decidedly better than last year.

I think it's too early to say that this team is decidely better than last year's 30 win, ACC Champion team. I think I was actually the first person to respond to the post that your response is in reference to, noting that the best player from last year's squad is still on the team. We are in agreement there... but I really have a hard time buying that this year's team is more athletic than the 2008-09 version. Losing G and EWill is a pretty big blow to the team's overall athleticism. I understand that MP2 is pretty athletic, and Dawkins is no tortoise, but still, I really can't see this year's team being more athletic than last year's. That is a very tough sell.

jws
11-16-2009, 12:48 AM
We've had plenty of top recruits, including #1's (Chris Burgess and Shavlik Randolph come to mind) that didn't translate into dominating success on the court.

We've also had some horrible luck with both recruits and players, having top recruits never show up, having top players leave after a very short period (Luol Deng, eWill)...

All of that can, and will happen to UNC. They've had good teams, but they've also been very, very lucky the past few years, in every facet of the game. We owned them for an extended period before that.

These things ebb and flow. HB chose them over us, let's not lose sleep over it, and concentrate on how lucky we've been with guys like Kyrie Irving.

I think UNC has been extremely UNlucky over the past few years, in that respect. Lost Marvin Williams to the NBA after one season, lost Brandan Wright to the NBA after one season, lost Alex Stepheson to transfer, lost Bobby Frasor for the bulk of his junior season without getting a redshirt(We could sure use Bobby at point this season), lost Ty Lawson for a long stretch in the 2008 season and for a shorter stretch in the 2009 season, and lost Tyler Zeller for most of the 2009 season.

It's when stuff like that happens, when players you were counting on to fill major roles are unexpectedly not there, for whatever reason, that recruiting great depth and playing a deep rotation year in and year out pays off like a slot machine, and at Carolina, it seems that stuff like that happens almost every season.

Kedsy
11-16-2009, 12:50 AM
I think UNC has been extremely UNlucky over the past few years, in that respect. Lost Marvin Williams to the NBA after one season, lost Brandan Wright to the NBA after one season, lost Alex Stepheson to transfer, lost Bobby Frasor for the bulk of his junior season without getting a redshirt(We could sure use Bobby at point this season), lost Ty Lawson for a long stretch in the 2008 season and for a shorter stretch in the 2009 season, and lost Tyler Zeller for most of the 2009 season.

It's when stuff like that happens, when players you were counting on to fill major roles are unexpectedly not there, for whatever reason, that recruiting great depth and playing a deep rotation year in and year out pays off like a slot machine, and at Carolina, it seems that stuff like that happens almost every season.

Everyone thinks their own team is more snakebitten than anybody else's.

flyingdutchdevil
11-16-2009, 04:43 AM
Everyone thinks their own team is more snakebitten than anybody else's.

Completely agreed. All of UNC's "losses", if you can call them that, weren't that major at all. Sure - they lost Marvin Williams after only one year, but he won a national championship in the process! Brandon Wright, after the way he played his freshman year - who could blame him for bolting! Fraser wasn't even the starter, and UNC had a plethora of guards to cover him. Lawson has injured, I agree, but UNC didn't lose him for the important parts of the season. Plus, if I recall, he won a NC.

UNC won two championship in 5 years with completely different squads. That's impressive. Considering their line-up for the next couple of years, they have the strongest chance of any team out there to win another in the next 3 years.

UNC's "luck" is amazing. From recruiting wins to players who turned out much better than expected to Ole Roy being, IMO, the best coach in the NCAA (coaching is both recruiting and on-the-court), UNC has had it all in the last 5 years. Anyone arguing otherwise is a completely sore winner (can't think of a better phrase). Duke had similar "luck", or amazing success, in the late 1990s/early 2000s.

I hate UNC, but I definitely respect them and, more recently, have been afraid of them. Anyway, gotta focus on this year. Go Duke!

kong123
11-16-2009, 07:36 AM
is it luck? back in the early 90's and into the early 2000's, was it luck when we were so dominate? we just happened to be at our best when the holes were going through the coaching pains. i wouldn't say that is luck, just good timing. during that time, we finally had several players leave school early to go to the NBA. the holes have had players leave for a very long time. the difference is, their players are panning out and they have adjusted to players leaving early by changing their recruiting strategy. they recruit to replace each of their players every 2 years to prepare themselves for early departure. the only flaw Roy has in his recruiting is that he is hit or miss with point guards. K's flaw is recruiting big guys in the mold of Laettener. K has to be energized now. if the last few years of UNC domination are not bad enough, then the HB thing has to do it. maybe he will regain the same fire he had when he first started to build the program. and as for us, maybe we should quit crying and support the team we have. remember, you make your own luck, next play.

brevity
11-16-2009, 07:47 AM
Wow. 4 pages of this thread and no one's addressed the main problem.

If there is a "Gap between UNC and Duke on the court," as the thread's title indicates, then maybe someone in Maintenance should repair it. We wouldn't want anyone to fall in that gap and get injured.

Seriously though, I've been observing the repeated chasms between various DBR members in several threads over the past few days and I've noticed something. I think it's time that we consider the possibility that there's a growing subset of Duke basketball fans who may not care as much about this year's Duke basketball squad at all. I'm referring to the people who project rosters in future seasons, as if this is Fantasy College Basketball, and they are some sort of Hoops General Manager.

I can accept the fact that these people create hypothetical rosters out of some sort of compulsion to put a little order in their lives. That's totally fine. Movie people project Oscar nominations months in advance, firmly believing in many films sight unseen, which is pretty much the same thing. (They also have an entire slate of what the Oscar winners in every category should have been in say, 1989, but that's a separate issue.)

The problem is that projecting rosters in the spirit of fantasy recruitment, without any regard for what the players may want/do or even any appreciation for what's currently happening, is not the same as being a fan of the sport. It is neither a heightened nor deviant state of fandom; it's just an entirely separate practice. You can do both, or pick one or the other, but everyone needs to realize that following a team and obsessing over its future are two different things.

This board, and sports fandom in general, will run a lot smoother once people accept that some (but not all) futurists may not be capable of savoring the moment, not knowing what will happen, and enjoying the season as a whole. They've already decided that a championship or two was won by UNC when Harrison Barnes declared, not because they're overreacting or pessimistic, but because they truly believe in a direct, linear, and mathematically exact correlation between so-called savior recruits and titles.

I don't know if they're right or wrong to express their fandom this way, but I do know that this obsession and need for control is very real, and very appealing. They're on an entirely different wavelength -- not better, not worse -- and need to be understood as such.

flyingdutchdevil
11-16-2009, 07:51 AM
is it luck? back in the early 90's and into the early 2000's, was it luck when we were so dominate? we just happened to be at our best when the holes were going through the coaching pains. i wouldn't say that is luck, just good timing. during that time, we finally had several players leave school early to go to the NBA. the holes have had players leave for a very long time. the difference is, their players are panning out and they have adjusted to players leaving early by changing their recruiting strategy. they recruit to replace each of their players every 2 years to prepare themselves for early departure. the only flaw Roy has in his recruiting is that he is hit or miss with point guards. K's flaw is recruiting big guys in the mold of Laettener. K has to be energized now. if the last few years of UNC domination are not bad enough, then the HB thing has to do it. maybe he will regain the same fire he had when he first started to build the program. and as for us, maybe we should quit crying and support the team we have. remember, you make your own luck, next play.

If you hadn't noticed, I placed my "luck" in quotations, thus denoting that it isn't necessarily luck but other factor as well.

My point was merely that UNC has had an amazing run for the last 5-6 years, and that run is going to continue for the next how-many years. And just to clarify, by run, I mean success that leads to national championships. I am not, by any means, attacking or arguing about Duke. This is purely UNC talk. And yes, I agree that we should support the team we have, which I feel is both a good one and will win the ACC.

kong123
11-16-2009, 07:59 AM
my response was really directed towards the readers and responders of this board. the sky is not falling.... the night is darkest right before the dawn.... :cool:

Wheat/"/"/"
11-16-2009, 08:23 AM
It's amazing how lucky you get when you are, and you keep, yourself in a position to get lucky.

In sports, and everything else, my view is that blind luck happens about 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time it's good fortune joining preparation.

Confidence is the other factor that seems to always be hanging around with Mr. Luck...

Newton_14
11-16-2009, 08:53 AM
It's amazing how lucky you get when you are, and you keep, yourself in a position to get lucky.

In sports, and everything else, my view is that blind luck happens about 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time it's good fortune joining preparation.

Confidence is the other factor that seems to always be hanging around with Mr. Luck...

I agree with you for the most part. But you have to admit you caught some breaks in the Spring of 08. Justin Watts being on the team should serve as a reminder that Roy was expecting to lose Lawson, Ellington, and Green as all 3 were dying to go to the NBA.

Green got injured and could not perform well at the combine, and Ellington was told he was not good enough yet.

But the real kicker is that Lawson was gone until he got pulled for loud music which led to the underage drinking charge which led to NBA teams backing off. So he too comes back.

There certainly would have been no title if all 3 go. And if Lawson had gone, regardless of what the other 2 did there is no way they cut the nets down. There were not even able to win the ACC Championship without Lawson.

So there was some good fortune there...

Wheat/"/"/"
11-16-2009, 09:22 AM
I agree with you for the most part. But you have to admit you caught some breaks in the Spring of 08. Justin Watts being on the team should serve as a reminder that Roy was expecting to lose Lawson, Ellington, and Green as all 3 were dying to go to the NBA.

Green got injured and could not perform well at the combine, and Ellington was told he was not good enough yet.

But the real kicker is that Lawson was gone until he got pulled for loud music which led to the underage drinking charge which led to NBA teams backing off. So he too comes back.

There certainly would have been no title if all 3 go. And if Lawson had gone, regardless of what the other 2 did there is no way they cut the nets down. There were not even able to win the ACC Championship without Lawson.

So there was some good fortune there...

Ok...and yea, all that turned out to be fortunate for the Heels, but would any of that have happened had UNC not been unable to recruit those players in the first place? Or develop them into the excellent players they became?

RoyalBlue08
11-16-2009, 09:27 AM
Have watched the opening games of the season for both teams, perhaps we should move this thread in the direction of talking about how much better Duke looks this year than UNC? (I'm assuming that wasn't the "gap" referred to in the title of the thread.) Maybe I'm just a glass half full kind of guy, but I am pretty excited about our chances for another ACC title this year, especially if Mason gets back sooner rather than later.

kong123
11-16-2009, 09:37 AM
they fell out of the top 10 in the AP poll even though they have won all three games by double digits. Guess they were not dominate enough? Valpo made the game look closer than it actually was, hitting 12 of 27 from 3 point range will do that. if they lose 3 games before Christmas, they may fall out of the top 20.

Newton_14
11-16-2009, 09:37 AM
Ok...and yea, all that turned out to be fortunate for the Heels, but would any of that have happened had UNC not been unable to recruit those players in the first place? Or develop them into the excellent players they became?

As I said, I agree with your point. Preparation met opportunity and the rest as they say is history. But things have a way of balancing out. Looking back only to the mid-eighties and Duke and UNC both could easily have 3 or 4 more titles each. They did all the right things to make that happen, yet injuries, early NBA defections, etc etc. NCAA titles do not come easy. People that think Roy is just going to keep winning 1 every 3 years are fooling themselves. It just does not happen that way in this age..

But you are right, luck is but one factor and without all of the preparation/hard work, it gains nothing..

SoCalDukeFan
11-16-2009, 10:55 AM
Wow. 4 pages of this thread and no one's addressed the main problem.

If there is a "Gap between UNC and Duke on the court," as the thread's title indicates, then maybe someone in Maintenance should repair it. We wouldn't want anyone to fall in that gap and get injured.

Seriously though, I've been observing the repeated chasms between various DBR members in several threads over the past few days and I've noticed something. I think it's time that we consider the possibility that there's a growing subset of Duke basketball fans who may not care as much about this year's Duke basketball squad at all. I'm referring to the people who project rosters in future seasons, as if this is Fantasy College Basketball, and they are some sort of Hoops General Manager.

I can accept the fact that these people create hypothetical rosters out of some sort of compulsion to put a little order in their lives. That's totally fine. Movie people project Oscar nominations months in advance, firmly believing in many films sight unseen, which is pretty much the same thing. (They also have an entire slate of what the Oscar winners in every category should have been in say, 1989, but that's a separate issue.)

The problem is that projecting rosters in the spirit of fantasy recruitment, without any regard for what the players may want/do or even any appreciation for what's currently happening, is not the same as being a fan of the sport. It is neither a heightened nor deviant state of fandom; it's just an entirely separate practice. You can do both, or pick one or the other, but everyone needs to realize that following a team and obsessing over its future are two different things.

This board, and sports fandom in general, will run a lot smoother once people accept that some (but not all) futurists may not be capable of savoring the moment, not knowing what will happen, and enjoying the season as a whole. They've already decided that a championship or two was won by UNC when Harrison Barnes declared, not because they're overreacting or pessimistic, but because they truly believe in a direct, linear, and mathematically exact correlation between so-called savior recruits and titles.

I don't know if they're right or wrong to express their fandom this way, but I do know that this obsession and need for control is very real, and very appealing. They're on an entirely different wavelength -- not better, not worse -- and need to be understood as such.

I agree that too many seem to spend too much time worrying about next year and the year after etc. However it seems to me that there are enough fans who care about this year to give the team all the support it needs. I also wonder if it matters that fans in remote locations seem disinterested. Cameron should be packed most games with fans supporting the team.

I, for one, am very interested in this team. We have a player who will finally be playing his best position and could dominate. We will be tall. We have some exciting new talent. We have some excellent returning players. We have a challenge to win without a natural point guard, but hey thats why you have a great coach.

SoCal

Kedsy
11-16-2009, 12:07 PM
back in the early 90's and into the early 2000's, was it luck when we were so dominate?

I know this is ticky tack, but it's a peeve of mine and it's been bothering me for a long time. I don't mean to pick on this particular poster because he's just one of many people on this board who do it, but do we have to use the word "dominate" when we mean "dominant"? I mean, we keep talking about how Duke is such a fine academic institution, don't we?

oldnavy
11-16-2009, 01:26 PM
they fell out of the top 10 in the AP poll even though they have won all three games by double digits. Guess they were not dominate enough? Valpo made the game look closer than it actually was, hitting 12 of 27 from 3 point range will do that. if they lose 3 games before Christmas, they may fall out of the top 20.

GOOD! Now I guess that everybody has gotten a chance to actually see them play the opinion is that they are not THAT good.

The Valpo game should be especially concerning for the holes. If Valpo could have found it's shot earlier in the first half, they could have had the lead at half. Then in the second, UNC comes out, plays more up tempo and rattles Valpo, extends the lead to 22 or so. THEN, they throttle back, and Valpo stats to hit the OPEN (very open) shots that they had missed, PLUS - here is a trouble point - the Valpo guards got into the lane at will to score some easy buckets on the ALL WORLD FRONT LINE!!

sagegrouse
11-16-2009, 01:27 PM
I know this is ticky tack, but it's a peeve of mine and it's been bothering me for a long time. I don't mean to pick on this particular poster because he's just one of many people on this board who do it, but do we have to use the word "dominate" when we mean "dominant"? I mean, we keep talking about how Duke is such a fine academic institution, don't we?

Your words are food for thought. I think I will ruminant on them.

sagegrouse

Rich
11-16-2009, 01:41 PM
We have a player who will finally be playing his best position and could dominate. SoCal

Don't you mean dominant? ;)

jws
11-16-2009, 02:24 PM
Everyone thinks their own team is more snakebitten than anybody else's.

Well, I certainly don't think that, although like most, I certainly notice it more when it's my team getting the snakebite. I just think the notion that UNC hasn't had it's share of bad luck in the area of losing players when they're needed doesn't hold water.

Azdukefan
11-16-2009, 02:29 PM
In response to the name of the thread I will say that after watching UNC last night, the gap between Duke and UNC is getting bigger all the time. Maybe they can get that kid from Iowa who Skype's his coach to enroll soon. Otherwise, they are looking at two, three, maybe four losses at the hands of the devils this season. Someone knew what they were talking about when they started this thread. Duke 4 Life!!!!

Tim1515
11-16-2009, 02:45 PM
Wow. 4 pages of this thread and no one's addressed the main problem.

If there is a "Gap between UNC and Duke on the court," as the thread's title indicates, then maybe someone in Maintenance should repair it. We wouldn't want anyone to fall in that gap and get injured.

Seriously though, I've been observing the repeated chasms between various DBR members in several threads over the past few days and I've noticed something. I think it's time that we consider the possibility that there's a growing subset of Duke basketball fans who may not care as much about this year's Duke basketball squad at all. I'm referring to the people who project rosters in future seasons, as if this is Fantasy College Basketball, and they are some sort of Hoops General Manager.

I can accept the fact that these people create hypothetical rosters out of some sort of compulsion to put a little order in their lives. That's totally fine. Movie people project Oscar nominations months in advance, firmly believing in many films sight unseen, which is pretty much the same thing. (They also have an entire slate of what the Oscar winners in every category should have been in say, 1989, but that's a separate issue.)

The problem is that projecting rosters in the spirit of fantasy recruitment, without any regard for what the players may want/do or even any appreciation for what's currently happening, is not the same as being a fan of the sport. It is neither a heightened nor deviant state of fandom; it's just an entirely separate practice. You can do both, or pick one or the other, but everyone needs to realize that following a team and obsessing over its future are two different things.

This board, and sports fandom in general, will run a lot smoother once people accept that some (but not all) futurists may not be capable of savoring the moment, not knowing what will happen, and enjoying the season as a whole. They've already decided that a championship or two was won by UNC when Harrison Barnes declared, not because they're overreacting or pessimistic, but because they truly believe in a direct, linear, and mathematically exact correlation between so-called savior recruits and titles.

I don't know if they're right or wrong to express their fandom this way, but I do know that this obsession and need for control is very real, and very appealing. They're on an entirely different wavelength -- not better, not worse -- and need to be understood as such.

Thank you.

Forget 2018 recruiting and lets worry about the players today. UNC has done 1 thing over the past 5 years that Duke can't come close to...development.

For whatever reason Duke has landed good players and they've stayed "good". Think about this year's team for UNC...

Thompson was a joke his first year or two...now he's a solid starting center that will probably average 10-15 ppg. While LT and Z will give us good minutes this year...wouldn't you take Thompson's production inside over either?

Ginyard looks like he'll have a solid year, Guys like Green, Wes freakin Miller, Terry. These guys were not the Barnes type stars coming in...they were the Zoubeks, LTs, Marty, Oleks.

As someone pointed out...Duke seemingly won the Mason/Kelly vs Wear Twins battle...but how will that look in 4 years? Are we confident that our boys will develop into their potential...because i promise you the Wear twins will be as valuable to UNC as Thompson is today.

jws
11-16-2009, 02:52 PM
All of UNC's "losses", if you can call them that, weren't that major at all. Sure - they lost Marvin Williams after only one year, but he won a national championship in the process! Brandon Wright, after the way he played his freshman year - who could blame him for bolting! Fraser wasn't even the starter, and UNC had a plethora of guards to cover him. Lawson has injured, I agree, but UNC didn't lose him for the important parts of the season. Plus, if I recall, he won a NC.

The loss of Marvin Williams was huge. His presence on the 2005-06 team would have made it a legitimate final four contender.

I didn't say I blamed Brandan Wright for going to the NBA, nor do I blame Marvin either, for that matter, but that doesn't change the fact that they were both huge losses for Carolina, and Brandan's loss may well have cost us a national championship in 2008.

The notion that Lawson's loss, in the middle of the ACC season, including the first Duke game, wasn't important doesn't hold water either, and Bobby Frasor was out at the same time as Lawson in 2008, leaving Q, the third string PG to carry the entire load. I can still recall our ACC opponents salivating at the thought of UNC being forced to play Q major minutes. That was another instance where Roy's willingness to play an extremely deep rotation, and do it consistently, paid off in spades. Despite his many problems, Roy had stuck with Q his entire career, consistently getting him meaningful minutes in meaningful games, even if it wasn't a lot of minutes. Thus, when called upon to carry the load, Q stepped up and performed above and beyond all expectations.


UNC won two championship in 5 years with completely different squads. That's impressive. Considering their line-up for the next couple of years, they have the strongest chance of any team out there to win another in the next 3 years.

UNC's "luck" is amazing. From recruiting wins to players who turned out much better than expected to Ole Roy being, IMO, the best coach in the NCAA (coaching is both recruiting and on-the-court), UNC has had it all in the last 5 years. Anyone arguing otherwise is a completely sore winner (can't think of a better phrase). Duke had similar "luck", or amazing success, in the late 1990s/early 2000s.

I hate UNC, but I definitely respect them and, more recently, have been afraid of them. Anyway, gotta focus on this year. Go Duke!

No question at all that we Carolina fans have been incredibly lucky for many decades, and the past 5 years exceptionally so, but then again you have too, and other than UCLA's run under Wooden, that stretch you had from 1985-86 to 1993-94 is the most consistently dominant performance I can recall, NCAA Tournament success-wise, by any division I college basketball program.

SMO
11-17-2009, 12:12 PM
Sure, but we have to be realistic at the same time. We've not been able to keep up for several years in recruiting. This manifests itself on the court. This hurts recruiting. We need to open our eyes and recognize the situation.

Only success will reverse this situation and, honestly, I'm not sure where that will come from in the immediate future.

Uh...is landing the #1 PG and #4 overall player not success?

Highlander
11-17-2009, 01:55 PM
One thing I am excited about with this year's Duke/UNC matchups is that, for the first time in 3 years, the best player on the court will be on our team. We haven't been able to say that since JJ and Shelden graduated. Losing Henderson is a blow, but so far Dawkins seems to be well ahead of where EWill was at this point in his career. Compare that to UNC who lost Lawson, Ellington, and Hansbrough as well as some reserves, and we're in much better shape. Almost everyone else on our 30 win team is back from last year, while UNC is starting over with essentially a brand new team.

Duke's weakness is going to be the same as last year - lateral quickness to stay in front of the driver. We have plenty of playable size, three strong stud players to build around, and some freshman with a lot of promise. UNC has one stud player (Davis), a few nice complimentary guys (Ginyard, etc), and a ton of freshman with a lot of promise (Henson, Wear, Wear, etc).

Personally I think we've got a better, more experienced team than UNC this year. A Duke sweep of the series would not surprise me. A UNC sweep would.

oldnavy
11-17-2009, 02:00 PM
One thing I am excited about with this year's Duke/UNC matchups is that, for the first time in 3 years, the best player on the court will be on our team. We haven't been able to say that since JJ and Shelden graduated. Losing Henderson is a blow, but so far Dawkins seems to be well ahead of where EWill was at this point in his career. Compare that to UNC who lost Lawson, Ellington, and Hansbrough as well as some reserves, and we're in much better shape. Almost everyone else on our 30 win team is back from last year, while UNC is starting over with essentially a brand new team.

Duke's weakness is going to be the same as last year - lateral quickness to stay in front of the driver. We have plenty of playable size, three strong stud players to build around, and some freshman with a lot of promise. UNC has one stud player (Davis), a few nice complimentary guys (Ginyard, etc), and a ton of freshman with a lot of promise (Henson, Wear, Wear, etc).



Personally I think we've got a better, more experienced team than UNC this year. A Duke sweep of the series would not surprise me. A UNC sweep would.

I like your post, but I would argue that Davis is not a stud player at this time. Thompson has looked much better than Davis has.

shoutingncu
11-17-2009, 04:20 PM
Personally I think we've got a better, more experienced team than UNC this year. A Duke sweep of the series would not surprise me. A UNC sweep would.

I certainly agree with experience, that is obviously in Duke's favor (as is having the best player on the floor, as you also pointed out), and that a Carolina sweep would be a surprise.

I don't know that I can necessarily agree with Duke being better this early in the season, or at least sweepingly better, but they certainly seem more focused in their early outings.

Personally, I think the teams split, with (gasp) each winning on the road.

Stating the obvious: We'll know a lot more about both teams after they each return from New York.

Johnboy
11-17-2009, 05:23 PM
Quote:
If I recall, was it King Rice who was "suppose" to be better than Hurley ??

Kenny Anderson. IIRC, Dean wanted Anderson really bad and was recruiting Hurley as a backup. K didn't recruit Anderson, recruiting Hurley (and Billy McCaffrey). Anyway, Bobby Cremins beat Dean for Anderson, who said something to the effect that he didn't want to be "just another horse in UNC's stable".

We'll be fine.

Highlander
11-18-2009, 02:29 PM
I like your post, but I would argue that Davis is not a stud player at this time. Thompson has looked much better than Davis has.

Sorry, I meant Thompson. I get UNC's endless supply of 6'10" guys confused.

Kedsy
11-18-2009, 02:31 PM
Sorry, I meant Thompson. I get UNC's endless supply of 6'10" guys confused.

If Davis isn't a lot better than Thompson by the end of the year, Carolina could be in a little trouble.