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pratt '04
11-03-2009, 06:58 PM
Nolan apparently played in an unsanctioned game this summer and must sit the first two regular season games. Coach K said this during the pregame radio show tonight.

Bummer for Nolan.

Edouble
11-03-2009, 07:00 PM
Bummer for Nolan.

Bummer for our team.

CameronBornAndBred
11-03-2009, 07:13 PM
Very happy that it's only 2 games.

Indoor66
11-03-2009, 07:20 PM
Oh, heck. That horrid actions have consequences reality strikes again. ;)

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-03-2009, 07:23 PM
This should give Andre some good burn on the court. And yes luckly it's only the first two games.

CDu
11-03-2009, 07:28 PM
Yeah, it'll be okay. I think we'll get past UNC-G and Coastal Carolina without Smith. If anything, it'll give Dawkins and maybe Czyz a bit more of a chance to get their feet wet. And Smith will still have plenty of time to gel with the team before ACC play begins.

camcraz25
11-03-2009, 07:29 PM
What kind of unsanctioned game was it? Like pick-up with UNC players? Surely as a senior he would have figured out by now to avoid situations like that...

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-03-2009, 07:31 PM
What kind of unsanctioned game was it? Like pick-up with UNC players? Surely as a senior he would have figured out by now to avoid situations like that...

He's a Junior my friend.

Maxwell1977
11-03-2009, 07:37 PM
Why is he not playing tonight? This is an exhibition.

Greg_Newton
11-03-2009, 08:06 PM
Why is he not playing tonight? This is an exhibition.

To help prepare the team for the first two games, as per K.

gep
11-03-2009, 08:18 PM
So... Wall is suspended for 2 games... 1 exhibition, 1 regular season. Then Nolan gets suspended for 2 games... both regular season. Interesting...:rolleyes:

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-03-2009, 08:19 PM
hahahaha good point. If it were the other way around they're would be OUTRAGE.

Hancock 4 Duke
11-03-2009, 08:19 PM
That's weird. Nolan is playing right now

gep
11-03-2009, 08:22 PM
That's weird. Nolan is playing right now

Nolan was suspended for 2 regular season games. Apparently Coach K wanted to see how the team functions without Nolan? so he sat the first-half...:rolleyes:

RoyalBlue08
11-03-2009, 08:31 PM
Don't know much about the game. During the radio broadcast tonight they said Nolan originally thought it was just a pick up game with some pro players, but because they kept score and time, it is a violation in which Nolan reported to Duke and Duke reported to the NCAA.

CameronBornAndBred
11-03-2009, 08:44 PM
Don't know much about the game. During the radio broadcast tonight they said Nolan originally thought it was just a pick up game with some pro players, but because they kept score and time, it is a violation in which Nolan reported to Duke and Duke reported to the NCAA.
That sounds strange. What about the summer league they play in, doesn't it include pros as well? All those stats are recorded and reported.

weezie
11-03-2009, 08:48 PM
Oh, thank goodness the NCAA keeps us all safe from degradation. My goodness, what would we do without their benevolent oversight.

mgtr
11-03-2009, 09:08 PM
I wonder if sanctioned means that NCAA gets their cut, and unsanctioned means they don't. Just my inherent cynical nature.

Bob Green
11-03-2009, 09:37 PM
That sounds strange. What about the summer league they play in, doesn't it include pros as well? All those stats are recorded and reported.

The Greater NC Pro-Am (http://www.ncproam.com/) website contains this disclaimer on its front page:


All Division I College players must obtain clearance from their University and view mandatory video. See our Certification section for details.

I believe the issue with Nolan Smith is he didn't obtain permission in advance to participate in the game because he thought it was going to be just pick-up.

airowe
11-03-2009, 09:40 PM
Here's an article on what I assume are the games in question:

http://www.dcmetrosports.com/content/view/5709/54/

As someone said earlier, it's ridiculous that Wall takes money form an agent and Nolan doesn't check to see if the tournament he's in is sanctioned and they both get the same penalty.

Read Icculous.

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-03-2009, 09:43 PM
Here's an article on what I assume are the games in question:

http://www.dcmetrosports.com/content/view/5709/54/

As someone said earlier, it's ridiculous that Wall takes money form an agent and Nolan doesn't check to see if the tournament he's in is sanctioned and they both get the same penalty.

Read Icculous.

Sorta Nolan has to miss two regular season games. While John Wall only has to miss one. SMH

airowe
11-03-2009, 09:59 PM
Sorta Nolan has to miss two regular season games. While John Wall only has to miss one. SMH

Ok. Thanks for making my point even more. Did you understand what I was saying or are you being sarcastic? It's kind of hard to tell with the punctuation errors.

mgtr
11-03-2009, 10:15 PM
Better the first two games than the last two games!

gep
11-03-2009, 10:34 PM
From the link on DBR main page...

http://aboverim.blogspot.com/2009/11/dukes-smith-suspended-two-games.html

***********
In 2004, North Carolina point guard Raymond Felton was suspended for the season opener for playing in an uncertified summer league. The Tar Heels lost that game, against Santa Clara, but they went on to win the national title.
***********

Only difference... I hope we win both games when Nolan's out... but I do hope the national championship follows history:D

lpd1982
11-04-2009, 07:34 AM
Can someone explain to me the reason for the rule? Does it protect the kids, the NCAA, or the college team somehow? Thanks.

JasonEvans
11-04-2009, 08:16 AM
Can someone explain to me the reason for the rule? Does it protect the kids, the NCAA, or the college team somehow? Thanks.

I am not certain, but it is probably intended to protect kids from participating in what could be called try-outs for the pros... or something like that.

--Jason "it may seem silly in this case, but I can imagine situations where this could lead to abuse of student-athletes" Evans

KyDevilinIL
11-04-2009, 08:22 AM
The exact same thing happened in my neck of the woods last season to Western Kentucky guard A.J. Slaughter. He played in an unsanctioned game during the offseason, then sat the first two games of last season.

Slaughter apparently played in the exact same event/game two summers ago without problem, because it was sanctioned then. It somehow became unsanctioned before the next summer, and neither Slaughter nor anyone at WKU realized it until after he'd played in it again.

WKU self-reported that situation. I'm guessing Duke did the same with Nolan.

sandinmyshoes
11-04-2009, 08:34 AM
Considering how we looked in the first half without him, it might be a good thing for the team to get in some games against teams they should still beat handily. There will be times this season where Nolan might be foul trouble or have a tweaked ankle or whatever and the team has got to adjust better than they did last night.

lpd1982
11-04-2009, 08:51 AM
Based on how comfortable he looked after he got in, I was wondering if we shouldn't send some of our other kids to play in these games over the summer!?!?!

MChambers
11-04-2009, 09:06 AM
Considering how we looked in the first half without him, it might be a good thing for the team to get in some games against teams they should still beat handily. There will be times this season where Nolan might be foul trouble or have a tweaked ankle or whatever and the team has got to adjust better than they did last night.

This is actually a good thing, long-term, because the rest of the team and the coaches will learn a little bit about playing without Nolan. It won't be easy, mind you, or pretty, but it will be educational. Good thing Scheyer doesn't get tired.

fuse
11-04-2009, 09:12 AM
I saw the other Nolan thread, and I thought rather than adding to that one, that support for Nolan deserved its own thread.

I'm glad that Nolan has accepted responsibility for his actions.

I'm sure I made much bigger mistakes while at Duke than Nolan did in playing in these unsanctioned summer games.

Nolan, I just want to let you know your Duke family is behind you 100% and that while it is a tough lesson, we'll look forward to having you back.

If nothing else I hope watching your teammates makes you even hungrier to play- it seemed that way last night against Findlay.

Go Nolan, and Let's Go Duke!

Maxwell1977
11-04-2009, 09:22 AM
I saw the other Nolan thread, and I thought rather than adding to that one, that support for Nolan deserved its own thread.

I'm glad that Nolan has accepted responsibility for his actions.

I'm sure I made much bigger mistakes while at Duke than Nolan did in playing in these unsanctioned summer games.

Nolan, I just want to let you know your Duke family is behind you 100% and that while it is a tough lesson, we'll look forward to having you back.

If nothing else I hope watching your teammates makes you even hungrier to play- it seemed that way last night against Findlay.

Go Nolan, and Let's Go Duke!

Is this a joke?

CEF1959
11-04-2009, 12:10 PM
Here's an article on what I assume are the games in question:

http://www.dcmetrosports.com/content/view/5709/54/

As someone said earlier, it's ridiculous that Wall takes money form an agent and Nolan doesn't check to see if the tournament he's in is sanctioned and they both get the same penalty.

Read Icculous.

Wall played on an AAU team, and the team paid his expenses as is always the case. It later turned out that his coach was a registered agent. That's not exactly the same thing as "taking money from an agent" in the sense you imply. There was no suggestion that Wall knew he was a registered agent.

In Nolan's case, he should have known better.

But in any event, rules are rules, and they always seem unfair when applied at the margins. If the speed limit is 30, and you get busted going 31, that feels unfair. But if 30 is the rule, 31 is outside it, and if 31 is ok, then 31 is too. Etc. etc.

Anyway, I don't hear Duke or Nolan Smith complaining. It's a little screw up. And Duke (as a clean program) generally benefits from tight NCAA enforcement.

Let's move on.

airowe
11-04-2009, 12:21 PM
Thanks for the lecture. But, to suggest that Wall didn't know the rules and therefore shouldn't be punished as harshly is saying that Nolan knew the rules and willfully broke them. Ignorance is no excuse for the law. As you say, the rules are the rules and you are punished for breaking them.

Evidently, the rule is one game suspension per each unsanctioned game played. This is why Felton was only suspended one game and Nolan two.

The important thing to remember here is that Nolan self-reported this violation to Duke, which then self-reported it to the NCAA. We should be thankful that we cheer for such a clean program.

allenmurray
11-04-2009, 12:32 PM
Wall played on an AAU team, and the team paid his expenses as is always the case. It later turned out that his coach was a registered agent. That's not exactly the same thing as "taking money from an agent" in the sense you imply. There was no suggestion that Wall knew he was a registered agent.

The team payed for expenses for the team traveling to team functions. Wall's AAU coach/registered agent payed Wall's expenses for trips to visit schools. That is a big differnence (and the reason why the other players on that same AAU team, such as ryan kelly,were not investigated or sanctioned). As a high level AAU coach and a registered agent Wall's coach knew what he was doing was against the rules.

Battierfan01
11-04-2009, 12:37 PM
I agree. Though it seldom happens, when Duke has a NCAA violation, they are very quick to report it. Also when our players violate a rule they report it to staff right away and never try to hide it. This makes me feel proud to be a DUKE fan and cheer for such a clean program. Mama always said its better to tell the truth right away then to have someone find it out later.

Indoor66
11-04-2009, 12:45 PM
The team payed for expenses for the team traveling to team functions. Wall's AAU coach/registered agent payed Wall's expenses for trips to visit schools. That is a big differnence (and the reason why the other players on that same AAU team, such as ryan kelly,were not investigated or sanctioned). As a high level AAU coach and a registered agent Wall's coach knew what he was doing was against the rules.

Who else on that team is being punished? Didn't Wall have to repay some money? Who else repaid money?

CEF1959
11-04-2009, 12:54 PM
Thanks for the lecture. But, to suggest that Wall didn't know the rules and therefore shouldn't be punished as harshly is saying that Nolan knew the rules and willfully broke them. Ignorance is no excuse for the law. As you say, the rules are the rules and you are punished for breaking them.


Both Wall and Nolan were punished for violating NCAA rules. Whining over perceived unfairness between the two situations seems very Kentucky-esque. I vote for moving on to a whine-free zone, as K and Nolan apparently have done.

Newton_14
11-04-2009, 01:26 PM
Who else on that team is being punished? Didn't Wall have to repay some money? Who else repaid money?

What Allen was pointing out is that the reason for Wall's suspension is due to his coach paying Wall's expenses for unofficial visits to schools recruiting him. The monies spent paying for the AAU team's travel to tournaments is not a violation of any kind. That is why no one on the team besides Wall got in trouble.

Wall has to sit the one game and repay the expenses for the unofficial visits.

NSDukeFan
11-04-2009, 01:36 PM
Both Wall and Nolan were punished for violating NCAA rules. Whining over perceived unfairness between the two situations seems very Kentucky-esque. I vote for moving on to a whine-free zone, as K and Nolan apparently have done.

I don't think the poster you were talking about sounded whiny in any way. He or she appeared to be bringing up solid points that were validated by allenmurray's post.

allenmurray
11-04-2009, 01:55 PM
Both Wall and Nolan were punished for violating NCAA rules. Whining over perceived unfairness between the two situations seems very Kentucky-esque. I vote for moving on to a whine-free zone, as K and Nolan apparently have done.

There is a difference between whining and pointing out that what you said was factually incorrect.

CEF1959
11-04-2009, 04:40 PM
No, what I said was correct. And this business of seeking small distinctions to justify whining about "1 preseason +1 season" vs. "2 season" suspensions is exactly the sort of thing I'm decrying. Both violated NCAA rules, both were penalized by being suspended for two games, and if you want to complain that John Wall got off lighter than Nolan Smith based on the distinctions you are drawing, that's whining. It sounds like a twelve-year old complaining to his mother how unfair it is that Johnny got more pudding.

I'll say it again, btw: You don't hear the Duke staff or Nolan Smith crying about it. Only among anal-retentive fandome is this an issue.

Let's man up, turn the page, forget about John Wall, and beat UNC-G.

Go Duke!

airowe
11-04-2009, 05:08 PM
No, what I said was correct. And this business of seeking small distinctions to justify whining about "1 preseason +1 season" vs. "2 season" suspensions is exactly the sort of thing I'm decrying. Both violated NCAA rules, both were penalized by being suspended for two games, and if you want to complain that John Wall got off lighter than Nolan Smith based on the distinctions you are drawing, that's whining. It sounds like a twelve-year old complaining to his mother how unfair it is that Johnny got more pudding.

I'll say it again, btw: You don't hear the Duke staff or Nolan Smith crying about it. Only among anal-retentive fandome is this an issue.

Let's man up, turn the page, forget about John Wall, and beat UNC-G.

Go Duke!

So we can't talk about John Wall. Got it.

And we can't talk about the relative punishment vs. crimes of two players, one who happens to be in our program. Got it.

And we can't be vocal about our feelings on a message board, just because Coach and Nolan aren't expressing their feelings publicly. Got it.

Thanks for keeping us in check CEF1959.

mapei
11-04-2009, 05:11 PM
I don't really care about John Wall. But this sure seems like another stupid rule. I understand Jason's point about its purpose, but it could be crafted more narrowly to accomplish that.

CEF1959
11-04-2009, 05:16 PM
So we can't talk about John Wall. Got it.

And we can't talk about the relative punishment vs. crimes of two players, one who happens to be in our program. Got it.

And we can't be vocal about our feelings on a message board, just because Coach and Nolan aren't expressing their feelings publicly. Got it.

Thanks for keeping us in check CEF1959.

You're welcome, and you can post whatever you want. But if it's whining, I might point that out.

Oh, and it's whining.

3ptSpecialist
11-04-2009, 05:21 PM
Well the good news is Duke's first 2 games won't be difficult and it gives our other guards more playing time, which they need. This might pay off when ACC play comes around.

77devil
11-04-2009, 05:35 PM
You're welcome, and you can post whatever you want. But if it's whining, I might point that out.

Oh, and it's whining.

Suggest you consider acting by your own words. You are whining a lot more about others' posts than anyone else wrote about the infractions.

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-04-2009, 05:38 PM
Suggest you consider acting by your own words. You are whining a lot more about others' posts than anyone else wrote about the infractions.

This sounds like " if my enemies ememy is my friend but my enemy is his own worst enemy is my enemy my friend."


Or someone complaining about people complaining.


I'm agreeing with your post just adding on.

airowe
11-04-2009, 05:51 PM
So, anyways.

I agree with many above in that this will actually help the team. There will absolutely be times when Nolan is sick, injured, or in foul trouble, and we will already be prepared when this happens.

At the game, I noticed a lineup we've been talking about some in the preseason:

Scheyer, Singler, Kelly, Thomas, Miles.

There was a little trouble getting the ball inside on offense, but once that happened there was always a mismatch. Not many teams out there have 3 guys 6'9" or taller in the game at the same time so a smaller guy was caught guarding one of our bigs, and we took advantage.

On D, Lance was able to contain the quicker guard and Scheyer, Singler, and Kelly used their height well to defend the perimeter.

3ptSpecialist
11-04-2009, 06:04 PM
The only problem I see with that line up is speed and pushing the ball. I think Smith driving the lane then kicking it out for an open 3 or to a frontcourt player with a size advantage would be better.

Smith
Scheyer
Singler
Thomas
MP1

I'd like to see Kelly a little before naming a freshman a starter. jmo

airowe
11-04-2009, 06:10 PM
The only problem I see with that line up is speed and pushing the ball. I think Smith driving the lane then kicking it out for an open 3 or to a frontcourt player with a size advantage would be better.

Smith
Scheyer
Singler
Thomas
MP1

I'd like to see Kelly a little before naming a freshman a starter. jmo

I definitely wasn't talking about a starting lineup. Just one for 5-10 mins a game, at most. But, it will be nice to have it implemented before it is needed...

Kedsy
11-04-2009, 06:17 PM
I definitely wasn't talking about a starting lineup. Just one for 5-10 mins a game, at most. But, it will be nice to have it implemented before it is needed...

It doesn't have to be Ryan, either, it could be Mason, which makes it even bigger. Assuming Jon, Lance, and Kyle can handle the other team's perimeter players, those three plus any combination of big men is a huge lineup that will be very difficult for opposing defenses to match up with, and will tire out opposing teams (because defending taller/bigger players in the halfcourt is quite exhausting).

Tucknut
11-04-2009, 06:25 PM
I'm just happy that the issue is not an injury. A healthy Nolan is key this year.

CEF1959
11-04-2009, 06:26 PM
Yeah, anyway....

It's hard to see the team without Nolan as better than (or even close to as good as) the team with Nolan, but I do agree that there are benefits to this two-game thing.

At some point this season, they're going to have to play without one of the three recruited guards. So it's not so bad to get the practice in now, in real game situations. Singler as a 2, Davidson with some PT, Dre' and Scheyer pushed to exhaustion.

Duke should be able to handle UNC-G and CC without him, and Dre' till get lots of PT, which will pay dividends later. Plus, Nolan will come out of that stretch rested, which will be good heading into next few games. The danger is he could be rusty, but I don't see that based on his performance so far.

The trick might be ensuring that Dre' and Scheyer aren't unduly fatigued for the games that follow.

airowe
11-04-2009, 06:32 PM
Just for reference:

Coastal Carolina: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/teams/roster?teamId=324

UNCG: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/teams/roster?teamId=2430

Neither team has much height, so it will be nice to have the bigs guarding smaller guys again.

Nolan will come back just in time for the trip to MSG.

fuse
11-04-2009, 06:41 PM
Is this a joke?

Why would this be a joke that I support Nolan (or any other Duke basketball player)?

The microscope these young kids are under is nothing I've ever experienced, and I was just trying to provide some perspective.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

-g

CEF1959
11-04-2009, 07:06 PM
Nolan will come back just in time for the trip to MSG.

Plus he'll have a chance to get a couple of games in against Elon and Radford the preceding week to work out any kinks.

BTW, it would be fun to see Eric Boateng match up against Duke's bigs in MSG. Jordan Davidson was a freshman with Eric B. The rest of the current players were still in HS.

jimsumner
11-04-2009, 07:26 PM
"I agree with many above in that this will actually help the team. There will absolutely be times when Nolan is sick, injured, or in foul trouble, and we will already be prepared when this happens."

I understand the sentiment. This is a way to make the proverbial lemonade out of the proverbial lemons. Coaches use this all the time. Beats saying "this sucks. We might as well shut it down for awhile."

But let's examine this logically. If it's really going to help the team, why wait for a suspension? Why not hold out Nolan for a game or two anyway?

There may be a time when Singler is sick, injured or in foul trouble. So, why not hold Singler out for a game or two, so that Kelly and Czyz can play? Or hold out Scheyer so that Davidson can get some burn?

I hope I'm not being harsh and this certainly isn't directed at any specific post. But I've just never bought this argument's implications.

And I really hope I'm not registering on anyone's whine-o-meter. :)

airowe
11-04-2009, 07:30 PM
But let's examine this logically. If it's really going to help the team, why wait for a suspension? Why not hold out Nolan for a game or two anyway?

There may be a time when Singler is sick, injured or in foul trouble. So, why not hold Singler out for a game or two, so that Kelly and Czyz can play? Or hold out Scheyer so that Davidson can get some burn?

I hope I'm not being harsh and this certainly isn't directed at any specific post. But I've just never bought this argument's implications.

And I really hope I'm not registering on anyone's whine-o-meter. :)

Jim, I think this is done in small doses, especially in the preseason. We saw lineups during the last two games that definitely won't be in regular rotation come ACC time, but it's nice to get the guys some burn so they'll be game ready.

I don't see this as a strategy to be employed, but rather a positive side effect of what could be a negative occurrence.

I'm going to go eat some local goat cheese now...

CEF1959
11-04-2009, 07:33 PM
+1. It's not a good thing. It's just a bad thing with some redeeming features. Can't ignore the silver linings on the cloud.

Another way to look at it: You don't wish for adversity, but when it comes, it often makes you stronger.

Hope this doesn't threaten anyone's ego. :) Can we stop now?

MChambers
11-04-2009, 08:29 PM
"I agree with many above in that this will actually help the team. There will absolutely be times when Nolan is sick, injured, or in foul trouble, and we will already be prepared when this happens."

I understand the sentiment. This is a way to make the proverbial lemonade out of the proverbial lemons. Coaches use this all the time. Beats saying "this sucks. We might as well shut it down for awhile."

But let's examine this logically. If it's really going to help the team, why wait for a suspension? Why not hold out Nolan for a game or two anyway?

There may be a time when Singler is sick, injured or in foul trouble. So, why not hold Singler out for a game or two, so that Kelly and Czyz can play? Or hold out Scheyer so that Davidson can get some burn?

I hope I'm not being harsh and this certainly isn't directed at any specific post. But I've just never bought this argument's implications.

And I really hope I'm not registering on anyone's whine-o-meter. :)

Because you don't hold out one of your best players just to test the team or develop other players. But in 2000 MSU had Cleaves out for the beginning of the season and I think it made them stronger at the end of the year.

Wander
11-04-2009, 08:44 PM
But let's examine this logically. If it's really going to help the team, why wait for a suspension? Why not hold out Nolan for a game or two anyway?


I remember half-seriously wondering if we would bench Redick for an entire game his senior year. I think I agree with you that it's not a good idea, but I'm not 100% sure (plus, that would have sucked considering JJ was breaking a new scoring record every other game).

allenmurray
11-04-2009, 09:19 PM
No, what I said was correct. And this business of seeking small distinctions to justify whining about "1 preseason +1 season" vs. "2 season" suspensions is exactly the sort of thing I'm decrying. Both violated NCAA rules, both were penalized by being suspended for two games, and if you want to complain that John Wall got off lighter than Nolan Smith based on the distinctions you are drawing, that's whining. It sounds like a twelve-year old complaining to his mother how unfair it is that Johnny got more pudding.

I'll say it again, btw: You don't hear the Duke staff or Nolan Smith crying about it. Only among anal-retentive fandome is this an issue.

Let's man up, turn the page, forget about John Wall, and beat UNC-G.

Go Duke!

The reasons you gave for Wall's suspension were factually incorrect. Your saying they were not does not make it so. I don't care how many games either of them got suspended for, I just think you shouldn't state things as fact that are not true. If Wall's issue had been AAU team travel the same issue/penalty would have applied to Kelly. That was not Wall's issue. His issue was having his expenses paid by a registered agent. Again, pointing out that you can't get your facts straight is not whining, it is pointing out that you can't get your facts straight.

FWIW - I am not defending Nolan or Duke - I actually think our situation is worse in some ways. Unlike Wall, Nolan had a host of college coaches/support staff who should have known better, and who were available to advise him. It was your (again incorrect) assumption that I was defending Nolan/Duke in this matter. I was not - I was simply pointing out that your "facts" were not correct.

airowe
11-04-2009, 09:32 PM
Allen, just so we can move on from this discussion, the whining comment was directed at me from a post earlier in the thread about the relative penalties given to Wall and Nolan.

The poster has yet to address the issue of their facts being incorrect, but did not call anyone but myself a whiner.

Kedsy
11-05-2009, 12:14 AM
"I agree with many above in that this will actually help the team. There will absolutely be times when Nolan is sick, injured, or in foul trouble, and we will already be prepared when this happens."

I understand the sentiment. This is a way to make the proverbial lemonade out of the proverbial lemons. Coaches use this all the time. Beats saying "this sucks. We might as well shut it down for awhile."

But let's examine this logically. If it's really going to help the team, why wait for a suspension? Why not hold out Nolan for a game or two anyway?

There may be a time when Singler is sick, injured or in foul trouble. So, why not hold Singler out for a game or two, so that Kelly and Czyz can play? Or hold out Scheyer so that Davidson can get some burn?

I hope I'm not being harsh and this certainly isn't directed at any specific post. But I've just never bought this argument's implications.

And I really hope I'm not registering on anyone's whine-o-meter. :)

I understand what you're saying, Jim, and I understand why you're saying it, but the real unknown for this team is how will they respond if they're temporarily short a guard. Because in that case some of the game has to be played with one "true" guard plus Kyle and/or Lance playing the "2" (assuming Duke played positions, of course). It doesn't matter which guard is missing, so there's not much additional to be gained by sitting out Jon (once Nolan's suspension was announced, anyway).

Similarly, sitting Kyle would mean more burn for Andre on the wing and/or for the other big players -- nothing that isn't happening anyway, just in a bigger dose. So little would be gained by that.

Personally, I was hoping the one guard lineup would get some run early in the year before Nolan's suspension came down. I don't know whether K was considering it or not, but now that he's forced to do it I'm not unhappy, because I think there's a benefit to trying that sort of lineup.

This isn't to say I would have advocated sitting Nolan out if he hadn't been suspended, but I would have certainly been in favor of trying a one guard lineup for 10 or 15 minutes in these early games. That's why I am among those who say it's not all bad that we get to test that lineup while Nolan is out.

That's my attempt at logical examination. Not sure it makes sense, but I hope it does.

Ohiobobcat204
11-05-2009, 02:05 AM
Its a real shame that Nolan got suspended. Luckily for us, the 2 games he will be missing SHOULD be wins regardless. This may even be a good thing, Andre Dawkins will get a chance to step up early and really show what he can do. I am extremely excited about Dawkins.
On the topic of Nolan, i see him making a rediculous leap this year. Hes got so much talent and looked pretty sick in the blue and white game. I think he may be the teams MVP come seasons end :)

flyingdutchdevil
11-05-2009, 09:07 AM
On the topic of Nolan, i see him making a rediculous leap this year. Hes got so much talent and looked pretty sick in the blue and white game. I think he may be the teams MVP come seasons end :)

Was that intentional? If it was, you missed a 'k'. ;)

I too hope, and believe, that Nolan will take a huge leap this year

Welcome2DaSlopes
11-05-2009, 03:53 PM
Its a real shame that Nolan got suspended. Luckily for us, the 2 games he will be missing SHOULD be wins regardless. This may even be a good thing, Andre Dawkins will get a chance to step up early and really show what he can do. I am extremely excited about Dawkins.
On the topic of Nolan, i see him making a rediculous leap this year. Hes got so much talent and looked pretty sick in the blue and white game. I think he may be the teams MVP come seasons end :)

I hope Nolan becomes at least a third team all-american but if he the MVP of the team then two other guy's really messed up this season which i hope doesn't happen.

CEF1959
11-05-2009, 04:37 PM
The reasons you gave for Wall's suspension were factually incorrect.

No, they WERE correct. Wall got expenses paid like a LOT of AAU kids get expenses paid. They don't have summer jobs, so coaches pay for stuff. It turns out that the money for Wall came from a guy -- his coach -- who turned out to be a registered agent. Neither Wall (nor Ryan Kelly) knew this. Wall's payments were different from Kelly's so Wall got suspended and Kelly didn't. But Wall's suspension was in line with similar incidents in the past. And (more importantly) Nolan's was in line with incidents similar to HIS in the past. Done deal. Most people move on.

But, regardless of those facts, then we had this exchange:

X: It's so unfair that Wall got 2 games including one exhibition and Nolan got two season games.
Y: Don't whine about small differences; they both broke the rules and got punished accordingly.
X: I'm not whining.
Y: Yes, you are whining.
X: Quit whining about my whining. I'm not whining.

That reminds me of how kids react to being told not to whine. What do they do? They whine even harder, "I'm not whining."

It's an attitude about things that I'm talking about involving a fan's reaction to NCAA sanctions. I say let's take the high ground and thereby distance ourselves from other fans of other programs. Dare I mention the Deng flap?

I think it's unseemly to ... er ... comment negatively upon comparative NCAA disciplines. It makes us look like whiners. Remember how much Kentucky fans complain about how unfair the NCAA is to them? Do you really want to be like that? Doesn't it seem like whining when people complain about how unfair the NCAA is to them? Maybe not to you, but it does to me.

So I'm holding us to the same standard, suggesting that complaining about NCAA sanctions in this case is only fodder for the haters who are already prone to see Duke fans as whiners.

If you are worried that you might be on the whine-o-meter, you probably already are.

Ohiobobcat204
11-05-2009, 04:41 PM
I hope Nolan becomes at least a third team all-american but if he the MVP of the team then two other guy's really messed up this season which i hope doesn't happen.

While i do believe Jon and Kyle both probably are the safer bets, having Nolan as MVP of the team wouldnt be an awful situation if he plays at the level many of us think he is capable of

Newton_14
11-05-2009, 10:56 PM
No, they WERE correct. Wall got expenses paid like a LOT of AAU kids get expenses paid. They don't have summer jobs, so coaches pay for stuff. It turns out that the money for Wall came from a guy -- his coach -- who turned out to be a registered agent. Neither Wall (nor Ryan Kelly) knew this. Wall's payments were different from Kelly's so Wall got suspended and Kelly didn't. But Wall's suspension was in line with similar incidents in the past. And (more importantly) Nolan's was in line with incidents similar to HIS in the past. Done deal. Most people move on.



John Wall's suspension was for a registered agent paying John's travel expenses on unofficial visits to schools recruiting him. It had nothing to do with expenses paid to travel to and play in AAU tournaments because the AAU expenses are allowed to be paid by the AAU team and/or coach.

The penalty calls for Wall to sit out 2 games (1 exhibition, 1 regular season) and to repay the travel expenses for the unofficial visits to schools that were recruiting him.

jesus_hurley
11-06-2009, 12:58 AM
John Wall's suspension was for a registered agent paying John's travel expenses on unofficial visits to schools recruiting him. It had nothing to do with expenses paid to travel to and play in AAU tournaments because the AAU expenses are allowed to be paid by the AAU team and/or coach.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/12446705


The school announced Friday that the 6-foot-4 freshman must sit out two games and repay almost $800 in expenses incurred during unofficial visits to schools during his junior year at Word of God Christian Academy.

CEF1959
11-06-2009, 05:13 PM
As I said, Wall got payments from an AAU coach, who turned out to be an agent, unbeknownst to John Wall. Such payments are common. What was different here was that the coach happened to be an AGENT. Ooops. I was correct about all that.

So Wall got suspended in line with past NCAA practice.

Nolan played in an unauthorised game, in violation of NCAA rules.

So he got suspended in line with past NCAA practice.

Some here whined about how unfair the disparity was. Wall got 1 exhibition game plus 1 season game. Nolan got suspended for 2 season games. It also turns out that Nolan might have played in TWO unsanctioned games, which justified a two-game suspension.

In any event, I maintain that whining about that kind of stuff makes us look like, ... well, whiners.

AND I noted that neither Coach K nor Nolan complained. Check it out from Duke Update:

"He shouldn't have done it," Krzyzewski said. "The guys know. And this is what every basketball player has to know, don't play in a game that has time and score (being kept), unless it's a sanctioned game."

Smith, who's from Upper Marlboro, Md., said he played in a summer league game in the Washington, D.C., area while he was home before the second session of summer school. He said he didn't realize he'd made a mistake until he got back to campus.

Krzyzewski said the suspension was for two games because Duke's staff was uncertain whether Smith had played in one game or two and wanted to err on the side of caution in reporting to the NCAA. Smith said he accepted the punishment.

"I was definitely disappointed in myself," he said. " ... With the rules the NCAA has, you've got to get permission as a college athlete. I definitely learned my lesson."

So if neither Nolan nor K is crying about the distinction between Nolan and Wall, why are you?

Let's move on.

Kedsy
11-06-2009, 05:15 PM
As I said, Wall got payments from an AAU coach, who turned out to be an agent, unbeknownst to John Wall. Such payments are common. What was different here was that the coach happened to be an AGENT. Ooops. I was correct about all that.

So Wall got suspended in line with past NCAA practice.

Nolan played in an unauthorised game, in violation of NCAA rules.

So he got suspended in line with past NCAA practice.

Some here whined about how unfair the disparity was. Wall got 1 exhibition game plus 1 season game. Nolan got suspended for 2 season games. It also turns out that Nolan might have played in TWO unsanctioned games, which justified a two-game suspension.

In any event, I maintain that whining about that kind of stuff makes us look like, ... well, whiners.

AND I noted that neither Coach K nor Nolan complained. Check it out from Duke Update:

"He shouldn't have done it," Krzyzewski said. "The guys know. And this is what every basketball player has to know, don't play in a game that has time and score (being kept), unless it's a sanctioned game."

Smith, who's from Upper Marlboro, Md., said he played in a summer league game in the Washington, D.C., area while he was home before the second session of summer school. He said he didn't realize he'd made a mistake until he got back to campus.

Krzyzewski said the suspension was for two games because Duke's staff was uncertain whether Smith had played in one game or two and wanted to err on the side of caution in reporting to the NCAA. Smith said he accepted the punishment.

"I was definitely disappointed in myself," he said. " ... With the rules the NCAA has, you've got to get permission as a college athlete. I definitely learned my lesson."

So if neither Nolan nor K is crying about the distinction between Nolan and Wall, why are you?

Let's move on.

You know, I was trying really hard not to get involved in this, but at this point you're just whining about the whining. (Or non-whining, as the case may, or may not, be).

airowe
11-06-2009, 05:19 PM
Wall played on an AAU team, and the team paid his expenses as is always the case. It later turned out that his coach was a registered agent. That's not exactly the same thing as "taking money from an agent" in the sense you imply. There was no suggestion that Wall knew he was a registered agent.



http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/12446705


As I said, Wall got payments from an AAU coach, who turned out to be an agent, unbeknownst to John Wall. Such payments are common. What was different here was that the coach happened to be an AGENT. Ooops. I was correct about all that.

So Wall got suspended in line with past NCAA practice.


Did you even read this article?


The school announced Friday that the 6-foot-4 freshman must sit out two games and repay almost $800 in expenses incurred during unofficial visits to schools during his junior year at Word of God Christian Academy.



Let's move on.

CEF1959
11-06-2009, 05:29 PM
You know, I was trying really hard not to get involved in this, but at this point you're just whining about the whining. (Or non-whining, as the case may, or may not, be).

Yup, I'm against whining about NCAA sanctions when the coach and player agree the sanctions are fair. If that makes me a "whiner" about whining, so be it. I might also "whine" about other idiocy in the future, especially if I think it makes us look bad. Feel free to whine about that as you see fit.

Now, can we PLEASE move on?

Of course not. Someone can't leave it alone, so he says the following:

Kedsy
11-06-2009, 05:32 PM
Now, can we PLEASE move on?

No offense intended, but you appear to be the one who isn't moving on.

-jk
11-06-2009, 07:54 PM
Enough. Enough whining. And whining about whining. Ad infinitum.

-jk