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Hancock 4 Duke
11-01-2009, 09:42 PM
Is it me, or are these people just horrible at calling games? There are a number of plays in the World Series of which the call was obvious or close to it, counting the one tonight with Howard sliding "into" home plate. With the proper technology, they could have easily seen that he bounced right over ti. Sheesh.

SMO
11-01-2009, 09:48 PM
Is it me, or are these people just horrible at calling games? There are a number of plays in the World Series of which the call was obvious or close to it, counting the one tonight with Howard sliding "into" home plate. With the proper technology, they could have easily seen that he bounced right over ti. Sheesh.

Totally off topic, but it's not just you. They should be embarrassed.

Jarhead
11-01-2009, 10:04 PM
Is it me, or are these people just horrible at calling games? There are a number of plays in the World Series of which the call was obvious or close to it, counting the one tonight with Howard sliding "into" home plate. With the proper technology, they could have easily seen that he bounced right over ti. Sheesh.

Posada's throw to second made it academic. The ump was a little tentative calling it, though. And it's not just baseball. You can see bad calls in most sports. Well maybe not in golf.

chrisheery
11-01-2009, 10:16 PM
Posada's throw to second made it academic. The ump was a little tentative calling it, though. And it's not just baseball. You can see bad calls in most sports. Well maybe not in golf.

I think CC made that throw, but yeah, the play was over at the point, couldn't be changed.

Maxwell1977
11-02-2009, 08:48 AM
Is it me, or are these people just horrible at calling games? There are a number of plays in the World Series of which the call was obvious or close to it, counting the one tonight with Howard sliding "into" home plate. With the proper technology, they could have easily seen that he bounced right over ti. Sheesh.

Yes, they've been bad, but in this case the ump got it. He didn't call safe until Posada threw to 2nd. He noticed that Howard hadn't touched.

CameronBlue
11-02-2009, 11:14 AM
Last night during Damon's at bat in the top of the ninth, count 2-2, Damon swung and missed for an apparent 3rd strike. The catcher dropped the ball and the umpire called a foul pitch, believing that Damon had made contact. I think the ump made a mistake. The view from the center field camera was obscured at the exact moment the ball crossed the plate but it seemed to me that the arc of the bat and the ball were traveling in different planes. The ball then ricocheted off the catcher's right shin guard specifically the portion protecting the knee. If Damon did actually miss the pitch he could've attempted to run on the catcher's error requiring a throw to first to get the out. Neither the catcher nor the batter reacted as if that were the case, so it seems likely Damon did make contact...but stranger things....Wondering if anyone saw the play similarly. I think the ump confused the sound of the ball hitting the shin guard for bat contact, the catcher was too busy trying to find the ball that had bounced between his legs and Damon just didn't react or was playing it cagey.

Olympic Fan
11-02-2009, 12:02 PM
To me, Ruiz gave a visible reaction to missing the foul tip -- kind of a jerk of frustration because he knew how close it was. The fact that Damon didn't break for first (which he should have done had it missed) or that Ruiz didn't react by grabbing the ball and tagging Damon makes me think they got that call right.

It's kind of like the Howard play in Game 3, when he knew he hadn't caught the ball before it hit the ground. In that case, his reaction would have been to run to the base for the easy double play ... instead, know the ball bounced, he tried to make the tough play and throw the runner out going to second. His reaction was strong evidence that the call was wrong. The reaction of both Damon and Ruiz last night is pretty convincing evidence that the call was right.

And, I agree, the ref got the Howard slide call right -- even if Howard did miss the plate. Of course, this is a pet peeve of mine and goes back to the controversial Matt Holiday play at the plate a couple of years ago. In both case, by the letter of the rule, the runner should have been called safe because the catch blocked the plate without the ball. A defender can NOT impede a baserunner if he doesn't have the ball!

In both the Holliday play and the Howard play, the catcher bumped the runner off the plate while the ball was dribbing away from them.

But these two plays aside, the umps have been horrible this postseason and their blatant mistakes have impacted the outcome of games.

duke23
11-02-2009, 02:15 PM
Here's the official rule (part of 7.06, in case anyone's curious):

NOTE: The catcher, without the ball in his possession, has no right to block the pathway of the runner attempting to score. The base line belongs to the runner and the catcher should be there only when he is fielding a ball or when he already has the ball in his hand.

Emphasis mine. I don't remember the Holliday play well enough, but Posada was definitely in the process of fielding the ball at the time Howard ran into him. The fact that the ball eventually dribbled away as part of Howard crashing through Posada doesn't matter. Howard should not have been called safe or out, which would then put rule 7.08(k) into effect:

In running or sliding for home base, he fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to the base, when a fielder holds the ball in his hand, while touching home base, and appeals to the umpire for the decision.

So regardless of Sabathia throwing the ball to second, the Yankees would have been able to throw home and appeal for the out if the umpire made the correct call.

Olympic Fan
11-02-2009, 03:48 PM
Here's the official rule (part of 7.06, in case anyone's curious):

NOTE: The catcher, without the ball in his possession, has no right to block the pathway of the runner attempting to score. The base line belongs to the runner and the catcher should be there only when he is fielding a ball or when he already has the ball in his hand.


My interpretation of the rule -- and I've had this confirmed by a working minor league ump -- is that the comment "when he is fielding the ball" means that he is actually fielding the ball -- and does not apply when he FAILS to field the ball (as in both the Howard and Holliday plays). It does not say "when he is attempting to field the ball".

The catcher has the right of way when he is attempting to field a batted ball (say on a squeeze bunt down the line). On a batted ball, the defender has the right of way and it's the baserunner's responsibility to avoid him (that also applies between first and second and between second and third).

But a defender waiting to receive a thrown ball does not have the right to impede the runner. A catcher can block the plate as he's catching the ball or after he's caught it, but if he doesn't catch it, he can't block the plate.

_Gary
11-02-2009, 04:40 PM
I definitely thought that was a 3rd strike on Damon and that he did NOT get a piece of the ball. And of course that one call (like so many in these playoffs and WS) had a huge, huge impact on the game. As soon as I realized they were giving Damon a foul tip on that one I thought to myself that somehow that would end up resulting in the Yankees winning the game. Darned if I couldn't have made some serious money on that split second prediction. I just knew that one call would be the difference. Just knew it!

duke23
11-02-2009, 06:17 PM
My interpretation of the rule -- and I've had this confirmed by a working minor league ump -- is that the comment "when he is fielding the ball" means that he is actually fielding the ball -- and does not apply when he FAILS to field the ball (as in both the Howard and Holliday plays). It does not say "when he is attempting to field the ball".

The catcher has the right of way when he is attempting to field a batted ball (say on a squeeze bunt down the line). On a batted ball, the defender has the right of way and it's the baserunner's responsibility to avoid him (that also applies between first and second and between second and third).

But a defender waiting to receive a thrown ball does not have the right to impede the runner. A catcher can block the plate as he's catching the ball or after he's caught it, but if he doesn't catch it, he can't block the plate.

I don't have a replay to look at, but at the time I thought that Posada was in the process of fielding the ball when Howard collided into him. (Though I could be wrong.) It's hard to believe that the rule would imply that the catcher is impeding the runner just because the runner succeeds in preventing the ball from being caught. Then again, I'm not an umpire, but the fact that the rule specifically distinguishes "having the ball in hand" and "fielding the ball" would make me believe that as long as the catcher is in the process of fielding the ball when the runner arrives, the play is legitimate. It says nothing about whether the ball was fielded successfully. And I've never seen it called any other way.

Personally, I always thought it was stranger that a runner is allowed to barrel into a catcher without sliding, but not at other bases.

weezie
11-02-2009, 08:54 PM
Yep, they've been pretty ghastly all regular season and post.

I especially love the floating corners; so suspenseful and unpredictable. Just all over the darned place at home plate...like little fluffy butterflies.

Or an episode of "Lost."