PDA

View Full Version : Who would you start?



Jumbo
03-02-2007, 04:38 PM
Who would you start in the Carolina game? (Pick 5, obviously).

Indoor66
03-02-2007, 04:52 PM
Who would you start in the Carolina game? (Pick 5, obviously).

I would rather have 6. Is that OK? Every little bit helps.... :cool:

Jumbo
03-02-2007, 04:52 PM
Feel free to post your reasoning behind your lineup below.

The Gordog
03-02-2007, 05:01 PM
Greg
Jon
Gerald
Markie
Josh

Start with small-ball just to mix them up, and maximize G's minutes. After 3 he comes out. We need to ID our hot handed scorers early on.

Madrasdukie
03-02-2007, 05:14 PM
I'm no basketball expert but nevertheless, here's my ha' penny's worth:

Greg Paulus: runs the point better than anybody else on the team, team's best three point shooter, incredible intensity.

Gerald Henderson: one of the best, if not the best on our team to drive to the basket (good free throw shooter), good defense, great on transition and good intensity esp. in the previous Carolina game.

Lance Thomas: incredible intensity on defense and good rebounder.

Dave McClure: incredible intensity on defense and great rebounder.

Josh McRoberts: great passer, best low post defender on our team and great rebounder.


DeMarcus Nelson and Jon Scheyer: Very active part of the rotation, playing more minutes than Thomas and McClure.
To have Nelson and Henderson run the break, drive to the basket alternatively, maybe complete alley hoops and then have Scheyer and Paulus drive and kick out to each other, seems great.

Cavlaw
03-02-2007, 05:18 PM
I'm torn. On the one hand, quick defenders cutting into the passing lanes frustrates Carolina. On the other, UNC loses the gaems where it gets out rebounded. Josh is a top notch defensive rebounder, but I believe plays a little too high on offense to crash the offensive glass.

He's such a good defender, passes so well and scores enough that I want him on the floor, but I think that means we need another big man around the hoop on offense.

Greg has been playing so well of late he has to start. DeMarcus is our best scorer and an excellent defender so he does, too.

Beyond that trio I'm uncertain. McClure has a bit of the Rodman effect at times, of just being where the rebound comes to, and he does all the little things. Zoubek has the height and is improving his game, and can frustrate Hansborough on the defensive end. Thomas could also fill that role.

And if Henderson is on, he's the guy I want. If he's not, I don't know.

If John has a hot hand, how can you sit him?

And while Marty isn't a guy I would pick to start, because I think the game needs to begin with a focus on defense (where he is improving), if UNC gets flustered and some break opportunities open up like they did for Georgia Tech, he's a guy that I think has the speed and court vision to really exploit them.

You know what I really love about all these guys? The same thing that everyone sees as their downside this year: they're all young. Every one of them is a kid that I lvoe having on this team, and over the next year, they're all going to get that much better.

Heck, they've already come a long way since November. The next couple weeks should be a good bit of fun to watch.

Richard Berg
03-02-2007, 05:26 PM
I think the top 4 are obvious. Greg, Markie, Josh, Scheyer.

My 5th choice goes to McClure as he showed a good ability to contain UNC's front line last time. LT will probably see nearly as many minutes, deservedly so, but I think McClure has a better chance of getting in Wright's freshman head.

Z has vastly improved his defense in the last month. Would be nice to bang up Hansblah a bit, but he's not quick enough to do it for long (nor savvy enough to make up for his feet with his head, yet). When he is in, I'd like to see Josh remain: not for the "twin towers" offense so much as for his help D. Lawson et al are going to penetrate our perimeter -- no way around it -- Z is not ready to consistently take away their lanes while also shadowing big quick forwards.

trinitydevil
03-02-2007, 05:36 PM
I DISTINCTLY remember you telling us that you hated the polls done by imagepro, and now you are doing them? You really are kidding me aren't you? Man does that take some nerve!

I tried to search for your exact comments (because as I recall, they were not politely stated) but the old posts were not available to me. This is unbelievable to me!

No wonder I haven't seen any posts from imagepro, and several others since the change.

Sheer Blasphemy.

Jumbo
03-02-2007, 05:45 PM
I DISTINCTLY remember you telling us that you hated the polls done by imagepro, and now you are doing them? You really are kidding me aren't you? Man does that take some nerve!

I tried to search for your exact comments (because as I recall, they were not politely stated) but the old posts were not available to me. This is unbelievable to me!

No wonder I haven't seen any posts from imagepro, and several others since the change.

Sheer Blasphemy.

A suggestion -- when criticizing someone, at least use words whose definition you understand. Blasphemy (http://209.161.33.50/dictionary/blasphemy).

Anyway, I love polls. I didn't like imagepro's polls because of the tone. In short, he dictated exactly how he wanted people to respond, commanded them to answer in yes/no form when they were often not yes/no questions and remprimanded people for not following his directions.

Most importantly, these new polls have colors. Lots and lots of colors. I like pretty colors.

I appreciate your dredging up old issues from the old board though, in the only post you've contributed here so far. That really adds to the atmosphere of a fresh start that Julio and Boswell are trying to cultivate. Thanks.

Jumbo
03-02-2007, 05:53 PM
I suppose I should post the reasons for my own starting lineup.
Paulus -- No-brainer.
Scheyer -- No-brainer (even though he's struggling with his shot, he's a steadying influence on the court and helps the team in a variety of ways).
McRoberts -- As close to a no-brainer as you can get without being one; as much as he frustrates me on offense, he has to be on the floor for his defense, rebound and ball-handling.
The last two spots are tricky. I went with Henderson and McClure. I just like the way Gerald is playing better than DeMarcus right now. Markie is an outstanding defender, plays very hard and can score in bunches. But his offensive approach can be frustrating. As many have lamented, he tends to drive into the trees without a plan, and struggles to see the floor for kick-outs or dump-off passes. Henderson is bigger, can finish in ways Markie can't, and his floor vision is growing. I'm pretty sure Markie will start, and certainly don't have a problem with it, but I'd go with Henderson over him.
I don't think this is the right matchup for smallball, so the last spot is McClure, Thomas or Zoubek. I think Zoubek's minutes need to be managed carefully, and while he frustratd Hansbrough on the last game, I worry about his effect on Duke's offense early. I considered Thomas, but ultimately went with McClure because I like the job he did on Hansbrough last game. His quickness bothered Tyler, he's strong enough to hold his ground, and his help D is critical against a team with UNC's quickness. Plus, I worry about early foul trouble with Thomas. So, I think starting McClure on Hansbrough and letting Josh handle Wright's length is the best option.
Either way, those guys will all play a lot.

imagepro
03-02-2007, 06:23 PM
Sorry that trinitydevil took up for me. I just got a call from him as he is a good friend of mine. He is from High Point, I from Carolina Beach, but he sits in front of me at Cameron. He told me of your poll, and I wanted to participate and vote too. Is that ok? Like you, I enjoy polls. IN fact, thats why I started them in the first place. That, and a venue for people to say what they want without fear of reprecussion from people like you.

But I am going to respond to your comments about the polls I ran. I never made anyone say yes or no, as you say I did. I encouraged them to offer reasoning with their vote. I DID tell them NOT to blast others for what they said. This was to protect them from people like you Jumbo, who get such enjoyment out of making people feel small. You couldn't refrain from doing it to trinitydevil in your last post!

Anyway, my polls often asked questions such as "who gets the game ball" or "did the slowdown affect the outcome of the game". How is that directing people to say what I wanted them to say? You obviously don't like me, and ONLY because I stood up to you. Well sir, the feeling is mutual.

Anyway, I'm voting in your poll, even if you stole my idea. You can have it.
I won't call the polls stupid or whatever terminology you used, as that would be stooping to your level. Now that you of all people are a moderator, I expect you will ban me. That's ok. I would expect nothing less from someone like you.

Chard
03-02-2007, 06:31 PM
I sat Josh. Sorry. His lack of compusure during the Maryland game again disturbs me.

Zoubek. It all starts with defense, right? He plays well enough and has a natural rebounding edge. Getting rebounds on either end of the floor will slow down the pace. He played very well against UNC last time. Of course, I bring Josh in as soon as possible.

Scheyer. Do I need to state a reason?

Henderson. Hopefully the magic continues.

Paulus. How can you not start him? He is the heart of this team and is running the team very well.

Nelson. He starts out really quick in games. I would be sure to sub for him often and tell him exactly what I want him to do when he goes back in. Run the baseline, get out on the break and shoot the open 3. Do not drive to the middle of the lane unless it is WIDE open.

Jumbo
03-02-2007, 06:32 PM
Sorry that trinitydevil took up for me. I just got a call from him as he is a good friend of mine. He is from High Point, I from Carolina Beach, but he sits in front of me at Cameron. He told me of your poll, and I wanted to participate and vote too. Is that ok? Like you, I enjoy polls. IN fact, thats why I started them in the first place. That, and a venue for people to say what they want without fear of reprecussion from people like you.

But I am going to respond to your comments about the polls I ran. I never made anyone say yes or no, as you say I did. I encouraged them to offer reasoning with their vote. I DID tell them NOT to blast others for what they said. This was to protect them from people like you Jumbo, who get such enjoyment out of making people feel small. You couldn't refrain from doing it to trinitydevil in your last post!

Anyway, my polls often asked questions such as "who gets the game ball" or "did the slowdown affect the outcome of the game". How is that directing people to say what I wanted them to say? You obviously don't like me, and ONLY because I stood up to you. Well sir, the feeling is mutual.

Anyway, I'm voting in your poll, even if you stole my idea. You can have it.
I won't call the polls stupid or whatever terminology you used, as that would be stooping to your level. Now that you of all people are a moderator, I expect you will ban me. That's ok. I would expect nothing less from someone like you.

IP,
I had posted this (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1674#poststop) before your post. I believe you were looking for a fresh start before, right? Fresh start it is.
I'm not trying to make anyone look small. When I'm called "blasphemous," I think it's appropriate to point out that the person hurling the term doesn't know what the word even means. You've got to start seeing things both ways, dude. This is what got us in trouble in the first place; you called me out, said I was sarcastic and belittling, and then started threads like "Debate Jumbo."
This is a new board, and one that is pretty awesome, thanks to the effort of J&B. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt over here; you extended half an olive branch on the stopgap board, and I'll give you the chance to follow through. Peace?
(BTW, I think the concept of internet polls, especially considering the option is embedded in this board software, is fairly old. But if you'd like credit for this, and believe I stole your idea, I can rename this "YOU TELL ME" if you like. Just let me know)

77devil
03-02-2007, 06:36 PM
Sorry that trinitydevil took up for me. I just got a call from him as he is a good friend of mine. He is from High Point, I from Carolina Beach, but he sits in front of me at Cameron. He told me of your poll, and I wanted to participate and vote too. Is that ok? Like you, I enjoy polls. IN fact, thats why I started them in the first place. That, and a venue for people to say what they want without fear of reprecussion from people like you.

But I am going to respond to your comments about the polls I ran. I never made anyone say yes or no, as you say I did. I encouraged them to offer reasoning with their vote. I DID tell them NOT to blast others for what they said. This was to protect them from people like you Jumbo, who get such enjoyment out of making people feel small. You couldn't refrain from doing it to trinitydevil in your last post!

Anyway, my polls often asked questions such as "who gets the game ball" or "did the slowdown affect the outcome of the game". How is that directing people to say what I wanted them to say? You obviously don't like me, and ONLY because I stood up to you. Well sir, the feeling is mutual.

Anyway, I'm voting in your poll, even if you stole my idea. You can have it.
I won't call the polls stupid or whatever terminology you used, as that would be stooping to your level. Now that you of all people are a moderator, I expect you will ban me. That's ok. I would expect nothing less from someone like you.


And direct all this animus at the Tarholes
GTHC GTH
9F 9F 9F 9F

Turtleboy
03-02-2007, 06:43 PM
Paulus-He's our point guard, and a damn good one.

Scheyer - He's a really good basketball player, on offense and defense.

McRoberts - Excellent rebounder, great defender, excellent passer.

Nelson - Great defender and good rebounder with the potential to light it up.

Zoubek - Someone has to be around to rebound when Josh bricks it from five feet.

FWIW, I invented internet polls. It was about eight weeks ago. IT'S A FACT! You can look it up.

sagegrouse
03-02-2007, 06:46 PM
McRoberts -- no issue for me
Paulus -- ditto
Scheyer -- need the scoring (and the savvy)
Nelson -- his scoring is in the first half -- needs to start -- also, muscles are important in this game
McClure -- starting is best for our steadiest defender

Henderson -- points off the bench -- goodness knows we need them
Thomas -- needs to earn minutes through good D (w/o fouling)
Zoubek -- need some production from the big guy
Poat-zeus -- still looking for a breakout game from Marty

Sage Grouse
'Six feet plus of snow in Steamboat in the past week'

Turtleboy
03-02-2007, 06:55 PM
I won't call the polls stupid or whatever terminology you used, as that would be stooping to your level. Now that you of all people are a moderator, I expect you will ban me. That's ok. I would expect nothing less from someone like you.I am pretty sure bannings are up to the administrators. Individual moderators cannot do it. Someone more knowledgable can chime in and correct me, if necessary.

dukelifer
03-02-2007, 07:23 PM
I went with Henderson, Paulus, Scheyer, McBob and Zoubek. Henderson is playing well and played great against UNC last game. He likes the big game. Scheyer will get some open looks as UNC does not defend the three well. I went with Zoubek to start but not to play a lot. I think he would respond well to starting and perhaps be better prepared to enter the game later if Josh/Thomas got into some foul trouble against UNC's bigs. Nelson should spell Henderson and look to shoot from outside and McClure would be in quickly to spell Zoubek.

Jumbo
03-02-2007, 07:43 PM
I am pretty sure bannings are up to the administrators. Individual moderators cannot do it. Someone more knowledgable can chime in and correct me, if necessary.

More to the point, I think banning people because they disagree with you is ludicrous. We've been down that road before.

mike88
03-02-2007, 07:44 PM
Paulus- playing his best basketball right now, and our best shooter- we will need his 3-point shot; my only concern is his ability to defend if he has to guard Lawson

Nelson- our best defender, excellent rebounder; we need him to have a good offensive game (few turnovers, no offensive fouls, but still aggressive)

Scheyer- hoping he gets back into form- he looked tired vs Maryland, but he was key vs Carolina last game

McRoberts: must be smart on defense; I would have him guard Hansbrough to start, but he will see time vs Wright as well

Thomas: if we are going to win, Lance will need to have a good game on defense (few fouls but aggressive) and the boards


off the bench at the first time-out: Henderson for Scheyer or Nelson; McClure or Zoubek for Thomas

allenmurray
03-02-2007, 07:53 PM
I never made anyone say yes or no, as you say I did.

Many of your polls were phrased in a way that required a yes or no answer. I often responded to your polls by saying that the question you posed couldn't be answered in the way that you phrased it. You did in fact ask yes/no questions when the best possible answers were neither a yes or a no.

imagepro
03-02-2007, 08:38 PM
I DID extend an olive branch, which you ignored. Should we start anew? Absolutely. But YOU told trinity that I was unfair in my polls. You said things that are not true. And I did not say the poll was new to the internet, as you implied. I said it was my idea on DBR, and I also explained why I did it, so people could post without retaliation. You failed to mention that, as it was people like you I was trying to avoid. Many people liked my poll, as you are well aware. Why? Because they were not criticized and targeted. Finally there was a place to express views without having to hide from the barrage that was coming. I know you read what people said. Do you not care how they felt? I DID.

As far as sarcasm, issues between you and I resulted ONLY because of your repeated use of it and intended intimidation of others. I have referenced this on numerous occasions. As a result, and as anticipated, you took a dislike to me. Which is ok. I knew you wouldn't like me taking up for others. It was clear what your response would be beforehand.

You do make a good point about the efforts of the DBR staff to improve the site. And actually, I have agreed with some of the things you have said in hte past, although not frequently. And, believe it or not, some people have actually made points contrary to my thinking that have opened my eyes on occasion. As opposed to bashing them, I like to empathize and consider their points. I wonder, without sarcasm as I mean this, have you considered such an approach?

All that being said, I WILL forget all this, and move on. While we don't like each other, we do love DUKE. At least I do. And I love our coaching staff. I have told Coach Dawkins TWICE on the radio show I feel they have done a GREAT job with this young team. Do I like everything they do? Of course not. YOU know I want MP to get more PT. Yet I think they are the best staff in America, if not the entire world. You see Jumbo, just because I don't agree with EVERY thing someone says or does, doesn't mean I don't like/admire/respect them. I can. Try it sometime, you just might feel good about yourself

Buckeye Devil
03-02-2007, 08:41 PM
I am no expert but I voted for:

Paulus - running the offense plus he is showing a desire to take a shot and score when a bucket is needed

Henderson - athleticism which we need on the wing, starting to show the ability to create and score.

McClure - for good defense and the intangibles

Scheyer - hopefully some outside shooting

McRoberts - low post defense, rebounding and a backup ballhandler.

Tough not to include DeMarcus in the mix, but I think he is pressing a little and finding himself in jams that he can't get out of either by passing or making
the shot.

Tough to include Josh as I thought his whole game and demeanor was less than desirable on Wednesday night, but had to look at it objectively.
Hopefully he can put up 15 pts 10 boards and 4-5 blocks. No game from him, no chance for Duke against Carolina.

My biggest problem with the 5 I chose is the ability, or lack thereof, to defend against dribble penetration from Lawson and others, but that is not anything new this year.

By the way-is this poll only for the UNC game? Just wondering since the close of the poll is Monday night.

allenmurray
03-02-2007, 08:44 PM
Try it sometime, you just might feel good about yourself


What an incredibly condescending way to end a post. You are not doing much for your image, pro.

Jumbo
03-02-2007, 08:46 PM
While we don't like each other, we do love DUKE.

I've never said I don't like you. I've never met you. In the past, I have not liked some of what you've said, but those are just words on an internet message board. It's important not to personalize this stuff. It's quite possible to think someone's opinions are completely ridiculous and also think that person is a wonderful humanitarian. So, if you don't like me, that's your preference. I prefer to separate the person from the words/opinions. I think if you try that approach, you might find things more palatable around here. For instance, you might see that when I'm attacking someone's point, I'm attacking that person's knowledge on the subject, not how they take care of their children or how much money they give to charity.
Either way, it is high past time to move on. So, let's do it.

dyedwab
03-02-2007, 09:03 PM
Paulus - He's playing his best basketball right now and he's been our steadiest player for the last few games. Our offense stagnates without him. No brainer

Scheyer - Again, no-brainer. He's a steadying force.

McRoberts - As frustrating as he can be offensively, he is our most important player on the defensive side.

Henderson - He can create his own shot like no one else on the team

McClure - Plays bigger than he is, which is critical against Hansborough and Wright

I think we 8 guys who play solid minutes right now, and even Marty has contributed, so I think we may face less fatigue than we seemed to in Cameron.

feldspar
03-02-2007, 09:04 PM
Any chance we could get a moderator to step in and end the madness?

Oh, wait.....

Jumbo
03-02-2007, 09:07 PM
Any chance we could get a moderator to step in and end the madness?

Oh, wait.....

LOL. Well played.

gw67
03-03-2007, 06:57 AM
First of all I like the chart and the colors. Easy on the eyes for an old timer. Second, I don't care if Attila the Hun puts up the poll. If I find it interesting, I take part, if not, I move to the next post.

My selections for starting line-up against the Heels are : Paulus and Henderson in the backcourt, Nelson on the wing and McRoberts and Zoubek in the frontcourt. These would be my choices for just this game because of the unique matchups the Heels present.

I like Paulus at point because he is easily the best we've got and his offense has been top drawer recently. Can Lawson beat him off the dribble? Sure, but UNC is an inside-outside team and Williams wants his point to feed the post not go one-on-one like Singletary.

I like Henderson over Scheyer for just this game because he will be up against his high school buddy who has gotten much more pub. Should be an incentive to play well.

Nelson is the best combination of offense and defense at the wing position. Although Terry seems to be an afterthought in their offense, he is tall and has some skills. Nelson should be able to use his quickness to get free on offense and he has the strength to cause problems on defense.

McRoberts should match up well against Wright.

I like Zoubek over McClure because his size will give Hansbrough a problem, at least for a few minutes.

gw67

Indoor66
03-03-2007, 07:09 AM
I hope that this puts this crap to rest. We had to put up with it on the old board and, I for one, hoped it would stop. Get a life. This is an opinion board, not life and death. I read many Posts I don't agree with and then move on. I do not aim at Jumbo or Imagepro or any other poster. I want to read all opinions - both thought out and brain f$#*s!

Can we quit the bickering, all grow up, be Duke fans, express our opinions, read or ignore others and get on with life?

DukieUGA
03-03-2007, 10:13 AM
As mentioned earlier, starting Paulus and McRoberts (but IMHO not Scheyer)is kind of a given. Well, since those opening minutes seem to be crucial and we need a rim attacker i'll start Gerald over Jon and Gerald can sit after 3 minutes to allow Jon to come off the bench when the UNC D has been conditioned for driving the lane and he can stretch them back out with 3s and outside jumpers. I'd start Z as well, just so that he can bang with Hansy for the first couple of minutes, who knows maybe he'll be able to frustrate Hansy while McRoberts sticks to Wright. I start Z b/c i don't think that LT on Wright is a good match-up for us and Z vs. TH as well as JM vs. BW seems better than JM vs. TH and LT vs. BW.
So my 5 would be
1 -Paulus
2 -Nelson
3 -Henderson
4- McRoberts
5- Zoubek
with a substitution coming at 3 minutes of McClure/LT for Z and Scheyer for GH.

RepoMan
03-03-2007, 10:28 AM
I suppose I should post the reasons for my own starting lineup.
Paulus -- No-brainer.
Scheyer -- No-brainer (even though he's struggling with his shot, he's a steadying influence on the court and helps the team in a variety of ways).
McRoberts -- As close to a no-brainer as you can get without being one; as much as he frustrates me on offense, he has to be on the floor for his defense, rebound and ball-handling.
The last two spots are tricky. I went with Henderson and McClure.

The only change I would make is to leave Markie in the starting line-up. First, this is a big game, and the atmosphere is a lot to handle. So, tie goes to the vet. (That's a big reason why I'd put McClure in there as well). Freshman are more likely to make self-destructive mistakes at the beginning of games like this. (If Lance started, I bet he'd have 2 fouls before we got 5 minutes into the game.) Also, Markie seems to be a leader on this team, and he has been in that role most all of the season. I wouldn't want to rock his confidence, and instead would use this as an opportunity to pump him up with the importance of his leadership. Last, I like the idea of bringing in a high energy spark after the game is underway. At the first tv timeout (assuming no major foul issues before then), I'd replace Markie and McClure with Gerald and Lance.

Turtleboy
03-03-2007, 10:40 AM
More to the point, I think banning people because they disagree with you is ludicrous. We've been down that road before.Because they disagree with you, perhaps. Because they disagree with me, however ...

Dukebacker
03-03-2007, 01:48 PM
hmm...

The ideal starting line up for me would be.

Paulus- 3 ball is big for us. We need him to shoot good three's and have minimum turnovers.
Scheyer- Needs to hit all open 3's. Pleeeeasse hit all the threes you take.
Henderson-Nelson is just to inconsistent right now.
McClure-Defensive stud
McRoberts- Needs to have a big game as well and shut down Carolina on the glass.

Zoubek needs to come in as well for a good defensive presence.

Anyways GO DUKE


GTHC

FewFAC
03-03-2007, 03:11 PM
I shudder to think about the matchup issues presented by this game.

Starters:
Zoubek
McRoberts
McClure
Thomas
Henderson

I am highly dissatisfied with the inability of the offense to create points, and if the point guard is going to be unable to create offense outside of his own shot, why even bother having a 1G?

I am not particularly enamored of the motion IQ of any of the players on this team, but I do not exactly see anyone head and shoulders above anyone else in terms of their understanding and execution, nor any real dropoff given the relatively low motion IQ presented by the entire team.

Anyway, the main rationale for my lineup is I think the command and control structure favored by the coaching staff has been exposed for its severe limitations re: the development of players this year, so I would favor any approach that led to the most talented players getting on the floor and taking the shackles off of them.

I would allow them to play the style of basketball most comfortable and fun for them, exchanging more possessions and turnovers for fewer possessions which by necessity must be more highly valued. These kids do not look like they are having fun, and I am not having any fun watching them.

Jumbo
03-03-2007, 04:26 PM
FewFac,
Are you serious with that? If so, I will give you a serious response. But I've had trouble detecting sarcasm from you in the past, so I wanted to clarify first. Thanks.

FewFAC
03-03-2007, 04:45 PM
Jumbo,

I am not here to bait you into any type of response, and I am pretty well versed in most, if not all, of the responses likely to be engendered by my thoughts.

The question was asked, and I gave my thoughts, but I do not exactly feel the necessity for a discussion of any type on its merits, or on anything else, as I feel the discussion is far overdone. Differing minds can differ, and this is an area on which I simply differ from most.

Regardless, I have been pretty consistent in my position, a consistency that reflects a serious lack of attention to an issue that appears crystal clear to me. I can respect the accomplishments of a HOF'er, but that does not equal infallibility either.

And while I think these kids have done a pretty good job, I think they are far under their potential, and I don't think a substantial case can be made re: player development outside of the self-motivation of a select few.

Jumbo
03-03-2007, 05:31 PM
Jumbo,

I am not here to bait you into any type of response, and I am pretty well versed in most, if not all, of the responses likely to be engendered by my thoughts.

The question was asked, and I gave my thoughts, but I do not exactly feel the necessity for a discussion of any type on its merits, or on anything else, as I feel the discussion is far overdone. Differing minds can differ, and this is an area on which I simply differ from most.

Regardless, I have been pretty consistent in my position, a consistency that reflects a serious lack of attention to an issue that appears crystal clear to me. I can respect the accomplishments of a HOF'er, but that does not equal infallibility either.

And while I think these kids have done a pretty good job, I think they are far under their potential, and I don't think a substantial case can be made re: player development outside of the self-motivation of a select few.
Fewfac,
I didn't think you were trying to bait me at all. I found your take surprising, so I wanted to make sure I was understanding you clearly before replying. As I said, I've had trouble recognizing sarcasm in the past.
Anyway, of course you are entitled to your opinion. By sharing it, one would assume you're also interested in discussing it. I certainly would like to, as I have some very different opinions (and can't quite grasp your lineup). I have to run, but I'll write back later. I look forward to an interesting dialogue.

Troublemaker
03-03-2007, 05:56 PM
As an FYI, Duke has opened as 10-pt underdogs for tomorrow's game.

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/odds;_ylt=Aps4H3cYGw1b0YI9vHUG8lrevbYF

The last time we were that big an underdog has to be 1996.

Ralph-Wiggum
03-03-2007, 06:04 PM
I would start Zoubek, Thomas, Pocius, McClure, and Henderson. But then again, I'm a Carolina fan. :p

Seriously, though, I think your best 5 are Scheyer, Paulus, McRoberts, Nelson, and Henderson.

Troublemaker
03-03-2007, 06:19 PM
I would start Zoubek, Thomas, Pocius, McClure, and Henderson. But then again, I'm a Carolina fan. :p

Seriously, though, I think your best 5 are Scheyer, Paulus, McRoberts, Nelson, and Henderson.

You know, that's not bad. I wouldn't mind going small and trying to force turnovers with quickness. I think Nelson might be able to muscle Wright a bit if given the chance.

imagepro
03-03-2007, 07:53 PM
You too can use sarcasm! Well done. I'm glad Jumbo and I are not the only ones. But he & I have truly reconciled. He has obviously decided to be nice to people. If it lasts is up to him, but I really think he will follow through. I admit I am impressed with his new attitude.

And as far as my "image" on this board-- it really means absolutely NOTHING to me. ZERO, ZILCH, NADA. Man this is my "comic relief" so to speak. My exercise when I can't ride bikes or surf. And also, I can buy no groceries or pay no taxes from income derived here, though it would be nice!

But my images, in magazines worldwide, is a completely different story. Thanks for reminding me of that!

1Dukie
03-03-2007, 08:53 PM
Greg Paulus - Leadership, court vision
Jon Scheyer - Shooting ability
Gerald Henderon - Attacks the rim
DeMarcus Nelson - Defense/Rebounding
Josh McRoberts - Post presence/Defense

Run the Heels out of the Dome. :D

Jumbo
03-03-2007, 09:46 PM
Ok, so back to your original post. Here's what I don't understand:
You want to start Zoubek, McRoberts, Thomas, McClure and Henderson. That's certainly a huge lineup, but, well, I'm not quite sure how it works. You've only got one player (Henderson) who can hit a jump shot. You've got two players (Henderson and McRoberts) who can handle the ball. You've got two guys who can guard a perimeter player (McClure, Henderson). So, what advantage (other than extreme size) do you see such a lineup giving us?

On to your other points.

-You asked why we should start Paulus if he isn't creating shots for others; I'd reply that he's knocking down some huge jumpers. Do you think outside shooting is important?

-I'm surprised to see you put Scheyer on the bench, too. I might be wrong, but I thought you were a big fan of his play (I could've sworn you were the Chicago guy who was praising him even well before he put on a Duke uniform). How come you've got him out of your lineup?

-I can't agree with you on the "motion IQ." Especially given how young this team is, I think they've dramatically improved their motion IQ. Scheyer and Paulus move with, and without, the ball very well. Henderson has improved dramatically. Nelson is still lacking in this area, but the other guys all seem to be grasping the offense now too. I don't think team play is Duke's problem -- the lack of a go-to scorer and/or creator is. What examples have you seen of this lack of "motion IQ?"

-Re: "command and control," I've got to disagree again. In the past, I've been critical of the way K has seemed to control the offense, especially during the J.J. years. Far too often, Duke just stood around while J.J. ran off screens. If that didn't work, Duke dumped the ball into Shelden on the block. This year, I think we've seen the most movement and purest motion in many years. And K has adjusted on the fly; he's no longer running the offense through McRoberts on the left elbow or left block, and he's put in the weave to get guys moving and the offense flowing. There's a lot less standing around this year; it's stark if you look at some older game tapes.

-I have a hard time believing that Zoubek, Thomas and McClure are more "talented" than Scheyer, Nelson and Paulus. What do you mean by "talented?"

-I agree that the team often looks like it's not having fun. But fun is often the byproduct of just playing well. Duke was having a ton of fun in the first half against St. John's, and there were no shackles there -- Coach K had them pushing the ball, they were forcing turnovers and getting layups/dunks on the break. I just think better teams force Duke to grind it out.

-Why are you not enjoying watching this team?

-I don't believe anyone is infallible either, including HOF coaches.

-In what ways is this team playing below its potential? What were your expectations? How has the team failed to reach those expectations? What players, in particular, are playing below their potential? And why do you think that's the case?

-I'm of the firm belief that player development (in terms of skills, strength, etc.) occurs during the offseason. That's not to say guys can't improve over the course of the season. But McClure's not going to learn new form on his jumper during the year. McRoberts is going to have a hard time working on new post moves. Zoubek's legs won't get any stronger. Why? Limited practice time. These guys only have so many hours to work together, and there's a ton of strategy that has to be covered in that time, in addition to fundamental work. Again, you'll see that most individual growth occurs between seasons. With that having been said, I don't think you're fair about player development. We've seen several changes within the season. Notably, Paulus has changed his game to the point where he is now a serious scoring threat and is much less turnover prone. Henderson's understanding of the game, court vision and ability to set up his moves have grown tremendously. And Zoubek was a severe defensive liability for much of the season; in recent games, his defense has been noticably better. Those are just three examples, but I'm also curious how you are able to determine who the "select few" are who are "self-motivated" and how you're able to know that the staff hasn't played any role in their development.

Anyway, you've got some pretty strong opinions here, and I'd love for you to expound on them. If you've got some particular insight into what's been going on with the team, now's the time to share. Either way, it would be great if you could address some of the more interesting issues you raised.

Jumbo
03-03-2007, 09:51 PM
[quote=imagepro;1886]You too can use sarcasm! Well done. I'm glad Jumbo and I are not the only ones. But he & I have truly reconciled. He has obviously decided to be nice to people. If it lasts is up to him, but I really think he will follow through. I admit I am impressed with his new attitude.[quote]

Well, I'm not sure if we're ever going to see eye-to-eye on the definition of "nice." And I still believe that if people are going to post critical things about anyone on the internet, they should be prepared to accept any criticism that comes in response. That said, my goal is certainly to be more patient, and to try a more delicate approach rather than lashing out right away.

johnnydakota
03-04-2007, 06:02 AM
I would love to hear someone explain to me why Josh shouldn't start and play at least 37 minutes. His D has been 1st team All ACC, at least. He handles the ball and relieves pressure from the ballhandlers better than any big in the country. He is the best passing big in the country. He is an outstanding rebounder. He sees the floor and has a very high bball IQ. Until his recent offensive slump, he had a stretch of scoring double figures in 15 of 16 at one point. He brings fire and attitude that, while some criticize it for being too emotional, fires up his team and shows he cares. As for the comment on him in the Maryland game, go back and watch it. No one on either team had more deflections, tips, dives for loose balls, etc.. LOSE A COUPLE OF GAMES, AND THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A SCAPEGOAT. Yeah, he shouldn't start.

CDu
03-04-2007, 08:18 AM
Well, I don't think the starting lineup matters as much as the rotations in this game (I'll explain below), but here goes:

Paulus - we have to have a point guard. Moreover, UNC is a pretty good matchup for him, because UNC's defense doesn't pressure the ball very well.

Scheyer - he's good defensively, and can be good offensively. He rarely makes mistakes, and when the shot is falling, he's a huge asset.

Nelson - he's our best defender, and he's capable of defending a variety of players. On top of that, he has a knack for getting out to fast starts in games.

Thomas - he's a great energy guy, and he can challenge Wright. I'm not dead-set on him over McClure, but I'd rather save McClure from early foul trouble.

McRoberts - he's the closest thing to a consistent offensive post presence we have.

Henderson and McClure will of course get plenty of minutes in my scenario (McClure would likely end up with several more minutes than Thomas). Their versatility will be very important when Roy throws in the myriad of players at Duke.

I think it will also be important to use Zoubek and Pocius efficiently. 5-10 well-timed minutes each should help keep the top 7 fresh enough to come on strong late in the game, without compromising the competitiveness in the first 35 minutes. UNC is the one team that can really wear us down with their depth and tempo, so utilizing those guys will be very important.

DukieUGA
03-04-2007, 12:01 PM
i'm gonna have to agree with Jumbo's evaluation of this team in contrast to fewFAC. fF's lineup has no ball-handler at all, even if you "despise" Paulus as a PG he still has the best handle on the team, for better or worse. And to fF, being able to score points is also part of a PGs role on the team. fF also seems to be very down on Nelson, and i must admit Nelson frustrates me too, but he is a great defender, good rebounder and the best player on the team for finishing on the break and creating break opportunities.
I too would not start Scheyer against UNC, he has been really cold lately and as Jumbo mentioned, Paulus' outside shooting is so much better now that it would just be repetitive to have both of them out there, when Duke really needs another dimension on offense. That's why i would start Henderson, to have that extra dimension. Plus GH can only go for about 3 minutes at a time, so it'd be good to have him open the game at high octane.

Fish80
03-04-2007, 12:04 PM
Upon further reflection, I think you put Zoubek in the starting line up for offense. Here's a quick look at points per game and per minute:

DeMarcus Nelson* 14.2 0.45
Josh McRoberts* 12.7 0.36
Jon Scheyer* 12.4 0.37
Greg Paulus* 10.8 0.34
Gerald Henderson* 6.5 0.35
David McClure* 4.6 0.21
Lance Thomas* 4.2 0.28
Brian Zoubek* 3.3 0.44
Marty Pocius* 1.5 0.21

Start DeMarcus, Josh, Jon, Greg, and Brian for points and for size and match ups, putting Brian on Handsblahblah. Henderson has a slight edge on Paulus in PPM, but we need Paulus at point. Henderson is first off the bench, and he and McClure get major minutes. Bring Lance and Marty in early and base their minutes on how they do.

Chard
03-04-2007, 12:12 PM
I would love to hear someone explain to me why Josh shouldn't start and play at least 37 minutes. His D has been 1st team All ACC, at least. He handles the ball and relieves pressure from the ballhandlers better than any big in the country. He is the best passing big in the country. He is an outstanding rebounder. He sees the floor and has a very high bball IQ. Until his recent offensive slump, he had a stretch of scoring double figures in 15 of 16 at one point. He brings fire and attitude that, while some criticize it for being too emotional, fires up his team and shows he cares. As for the comment on him in the Maryland game, go back and watch it. No one on either team had more deflections, tips, dives for loose balls, etc.. LOSE A COUPLE OF GAMES, AND THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A SCAPEGOAT. Yeah, he shouldn't start.

Sure. His continued lack of composure. The Maryland game was a regression in my opinion. He was spending time complaining about the refs, didn't look like his head was in the game and focused, he was throwing forearms and elbows after getting his shot blocked or a shot not falling. His stats are not in question. His leadership is. A team captain does not act like that. So, I benched him. Who said anything about the loss being Josh's fault? That was never brought up.

johnnydakota
03-04-2007, 12:39 PM
Coach K praised his leadership, comparing him to a great "senior leader". You would know better though, right? Are you suggesting a one-game send a message benching, or just because he's not good enough to be a starter? I say Duke would be sub-.500 w/o him.

Chard
03-04-2007, 01:49 PM
Coach K praised his leadership, comparing him to a great "senior leader". You would know better though, right? Are you suggesting a one-game send a message benching, or just because he's not good enough to be a starter? I say Duke would be sub-.500 w/o him.

I don't know if you are being serious with your last question or just being facetious. Of course Josh is good enough to start. That is ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Yes, I am suggesting a one-game benching to let him know that he needs to keep his composure. Where did you get that quote? After the Maryland game? No, I don't know better than Coach K since my view is very limited. Why the sarcasm? Someone asked a poll question and I gave my answer. We're all playing coach when we answer. No need to get chippy. Didn't Josh sit before the first UNC game? Seems that K doesn't know better either, hun?

Houston
03-04-2007, 02:17 PM
I would start: McRoberts, Thomas, Nelson, Henderson (T. Hill and McCaffrey part II) and Paulus. Although it is late in the season, the team must reinvent itself like the 2000-2001 team when Boozer got hurt. If coach goes with the current rotation, they will not make it past the round of 32 in the tournament. The team needs to get quicker and more athletic. The defense must create some easy baskets. I would make Jon the sixth man, where is role would be to provide instant offense. Since Jon is not the shooter or scorer like a young JJ, this team is better served with Henderson. Status quo equals three loses in our next five games.

DukeDevilDeb
03-04-2007, 02:39 PM
How can you say that Paulus has been unable to create offense? Were it not for his offense, I'm not sure we would have scored against Maryland. He has been a major offensive force in several games, and I think you may be watching Marty and thinking he's Greg.

DukeDevilDeb
03-04-2007, 02:43 PM
Ditto!

Ps Go To Hell, Carolina!

CDu
03-04-2007, 03:09 PM
How can you say that Paulus has been unable to create offense? Were it not for his offense, I'm not sure we would have scored against Maryland. He has been a major offensive force in several games, and I think you may be watching Marty and thinking he's Greg.

There are two types of creating offense. You can create offense for yourself, and you can create offense for others. Point guards are supposed to be able to do both, but need to primarily do the latter.

I'm not sure what the other poster was suggesting, but I'd argue that Paulus has not created offense for others very well, and he certainly hasn't done so on a consistent basis. He has hit shots very well at times, and has occasionally shown flashes of his skill at setting up others. But he has struggled at creating offense for others this year.

If Paulus was a shooting guard, he'd be having a fantastic season. But point guards are held to a different standard.

Les Diables Bleus
03-04-2007, 05:45 PM
Paulus - Had a rocky start this season, but now he's playing the best ball of his career at Duke. Has developed into a great shooter.

Zoubek - Big man inside. Duke vs. UNC at Cameron this year: need I say more? He completely D'd up Hans blah-blah when he started. Just needs to lift a little more.

Thomas - Great defender, good all-around player.

Henderson - A domination station vs. UNC (excpet that little incident at the end of the game is debatable)

Scheyer - Good shooter and all-around player.