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airowe
10-27-2009, 12:23 PM
I was hesitant to post this in the Elizabeth King Forum because I can see the discussion turning heated rather quickly.

How this guy draws a corellary between Duke fans and students being excited about getting the #2 PG in the nation and annointing him "The Great Black Hope" for Duke Basketball is beyond me and the fact that he is the ONLY person I've seen take this viewpoint yet closes the article with "One can only hope the media doesn't continue to cover this" is beyond me.

I didn't want to link it because I don't want to give this type of story any web traffic, but in order to facilitate discussion here it is:

http://dukechronicle.com/article/you-me-and-kyrie

Indoor66
10-27-2009, 12:36 PM
After your description of the piece, I choose not to read it.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-27-2009, 12:47 PM
I was hesitant to post this in the Elizabeth King Forum because I can see the discussion turning heated rather quickly.

How this guy draws a corellary between Duke fans and students being excited about getting the #2 PG in the nation and annointing him "The Great Black Hope" for Duke Basketball is beyond me and the fact that he is the ONLY person I've seen take this viewpoint yet closes the article with "One can only hope the media doesn't continue to cover this" is beyond me.

I didn't want to link it because I don't want to give this type of story any web traffic, but in order to facilitate discussion here it is:

http://dukechronicle.com/article/you-me-and-kyrie

I read it. It's loaded with all sorts of mean spirited stereotyping of Durham and the people of the region, stereotyping which has been hanging around for years. The insular attitude demonstrated in judging others from the distance of never knowing any of those judged reminds me of two letters to the editor during my time at Duke. One appeared while I was an undergrad; the other some years later while I was a graduate student. Each expressed surprise that we have four distinct seasons in Durham, just as they had at home.

brevity
10-27-2009, 12:53 PM
It's poorly written, weakly argued, and at best tangentially relevant. I'm a former Chronicle columnist (I've written some on race, not much about sports), so to me this looks like an effort that was rushed to print from the early outline stages. It lacks cohesion.

Also, while I'm not in Durham, I don't feel like the columnist is gauging the current temperature on/off campus in any meaningful way. It's as if he tried to hard to find some new and negative spin for the sake of doing so. Maybe the locals will confirm that his sentiment, whatever it is, seems to come out of nowhere.

If I were to guess, the sigh of relief from Duke fans comes not from Mr. Irving's race, but his high profile as a recruit and the position he plays. Closely related to that is Duke's string of almost-misses in recruiting other high school point guards in recent years, specifically John Wall. That the columnist fails to mention any of this rings particularly false.

BlueDevilBaby
10-27-2009, 12:54 PM
I did and wished I had not wasted my time doing so.

YourLandlord
10-27-2009, 01:08 PM
uhhh...this article makes no sense.

allenmurray
10-27-2009, 01:18 PM
I've seen high school work that was better organized and more persuassive than this essay. His statement that "black citizens of Durham who work for the university often work as Subway chef's and bus drivers" shows his own stereotypes and not the reality (particularly withn Duke Health services).

cspan37421
10-27-2009, 02:50 PM
That was painful to read. Who has the over/under on unwarranted assumptions?

aimo
10-27-2009, 03:09 PM
What a moron. There aren't enough obscenities to fully describe the kind of moron that he is.

Taco
10-27-2009, 03:15 PM
http://fu.ckth.at/noise/ti/facepalm-picard-s.jpg

johnb
10-27-2009, 03:25 PM
banal.

I'd say poorly edited except that it seems unlikely that anyone edited it at all.

SupaDave
10-27-2009, 03:28 PM
I made it this far...


Bird’s popularity really only resonated in Massachusetts and Indiana...

Then stopped...

G man
10-27-2009, 03:33 PM
You know what the worst part about this terrible article was? It made me mad enough to actually mentally defend Tyler Hansdork! This was a real piece of you know what! I think we all could care less the color of Kyrie's skin what we do care about is he is a baller.

BlueintheFace
10-27-2009, 03:34 PM
I made it this far...



Then stopped...

yah. that is when I started laughing.

uh_no
10-27-2009, 03:34 PM
I read the article.....as a student here I'm appaled that someone can think the things he does. using a numerous number of metrics, it is inherently clear that race means nothing in terms of the basketball team....we recruit good players, we cheer for good players.....I pointed this out on the chronicles board also, but this year the loudest cheers are for kyle and jon..last year it was G, the year before it was d-mark......they only thing they had in common was being phenomenal players.....not race, not religion.....nothing

Greg_Newton
10-27-2009, 03:36 PM
That is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in that rambling, incoherent article was there even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award the author no points, and may God have mercy on his soul.

:confused:
:rolleyes:

MulletMan
10-27-2009, 03:37 PM
I don't understand his point. Really.

Did he get drunk and write this at Shooter's? I'm confused.

Facts:

Larry Bird is white
Kobe, LeBron and Isiah are not
Larry Bird won the 87 MVP
All are iconic basketball figures
The only one that comes close to being loved by the masses is LeBron (my opinion)
Kyrie Irving, like Kobe, LeBron and Isiah, is African American
Duke is in Durham


That covers what can be gleaned from this article. Otherwise the arguments made lack any sort of cohesiveness, and I'm 99% sure that the youngster has ventured no further than East Campus or Main St. in his time here in Durham.

Oh wait... I did forget one other fact from the article... Kyrie Irving cares nothing about what was written in this "piece". You shouldn't either.

allenmurray
10-27-2009, 03:40 PM
One time I was changing light fixture in a house I was remodeling. I thought I had thrown the circuit breaker, but I had thrown the wrong one. I got a strong dose of 110 current - I didn't just brush against the wires, I full on grabbed them (thinking the breaker had been thrown). That was worse than this article, but not by very much.

taiw93
10-27-2009, 03:40 PM
The thing that really upsets me is the fact that all of the hurtful things said about Duke and its student body (portrayed to be a group of rich, pampered white racists) during the lacrosse case are only reinforced by this article. I wish I had a chance to inform all who read this that this in no way reflects the feelings of the Duke community and student body. Why it was allowed to be punlished is beyond me.

On edit: I'm all for freedom of speech, but I do think something should be done to discipline this student in some way, or at the very least, discourage him from writing such tasteless articles in the future.

uh_no
10-27-2009, 03:56 PM
i encourage all of you to make your thoughts known on the comments section of this article on the chronicle website

west_coast_devil
10-27-2009, 03:57 PM
Yuck...I am angry at myself for reading that article. As mentioned in previous posts, he made no clear or persuasive points what-so-ever! Larry Bird is only iconic in Boston and Indiana... really? nevermind I give up..........
Hate, Hate, Hate

YourLandlord
10-27-2009, 04:02 PM
The thing that really upsets me is the fact that all of the hurtful things said about Duke and its student body (portrayed to be a group of rich, pampered white racists) during the lacrosse case are only reinforced by this article. I wish I had a chance to inform all who read this that this in no way reflects the feelings of the Duke community and student body. Why it was allowed to be punlished is beyond me.

On edit: I'm all for freedom of speech, but I do think something should be done to discipline this student in some way, or at the very least, discourage him from writing such tasteless articles in the future.

So leave a comment!

SupaDave
10-27-2009, 04:03 PM
Yuck...I am angry at myself for reading that article. As mentioned in previous posts, he made no clear or persuasive points what-so-ever! Larry Bird is only iconic in Boston and Indiana... really? nevermind I give up..........
Hate, Hate, Hate

I think Bird is popular in "France" too. :)

(Hick from French Lick)

But seriously, the second I read that I immediately thought about sitting down at my old Apple computer circa 1986 and playing one on one with Dr. J vs. Larry Bird. They actually sold a game with just TWO individuals playing one on one. That was the WHOLE game!!!

MulletMan
10-27-2009, 04:11 PM
i think bird is popular in "france" too. :)

(hick from french lick)

but seriously, the second i read that i immediately thought about sitting down at my old apple computer circa 1986 and playing one on one with dr. J vs. Larry bird. They actually sold a game with just two individuals playing one on one. That was the whole game!!!

that game was the bomb!!!!!

RelativeWays
10-27-2009, 04:14 PM
Reading this piece makes me wonder if the ignorance about Duke's relationship with race lies not with the outsider perception, but with the students who actually attend the university in question. There are some fundamentally wrong things with the piece.

oldnavy
10-27-2009, 04:21 PM
Kyrie Irving is BLACK???? Well, that changes everything!:eek:

Poor kid, life must suck for someone who cannot even enjoy signing a top recruit without looking for some deep dark, diabolical meaning.

nyr484
10-27-2009, 04:22 PM
The writing style reminds me of the "Johnny Rockets" story written by Steve Blake.
http://web.archive.org/web/20021213114039/www.wam.umd.edu/~blakes/project1.html

Indoor66
10-27-2009, 04:24 PM
That is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in that rambling, incoherent article was there even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award the author no points, and may God have mercy on his soul.

:confused:
:rolleyes:

Not me! ;) See post 2 of the thread.

BD80
10-27-2009, 04:34 PM
Reading this piece makes me wonder if the ignorance about Duke's relationship with race lies not with the outsider perception, but with the students who actually attend the university in question. There are some fundamentally wrong things with the piece.

It is disturbing that a student with the supposed intelligence required to get into Duke could be so ignorant (and write so poorly!).

It is unfathomable that the editors of the Chronicle would let such garbage get published!

The only point with a even a modicum of pertinence is that Duke's image will benefit from the addition of a high profile black player, particularly at point guard which will gain more attention, because of the perception we predominantly have white players. Why this point was even worth mentioning in the Chronicle is highly debatable.

The article is so laced with prejudice, and so poorly written that it is an embarrassment to the university and to its current and former students.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-27-2009, 04:36 PM
Reading this piece makes me wonder if the ignorance about Duke's relationship with race lies not with the outsider perception, but with the students who actually attend the university in question. There are some fundamentally wrong things with the piece.

I've talked with many recent Duke students who've come from other regions of the country. What they say about Durham and the perceived dangers and unpleasantness in the city are so similar that I've wondered what the source is on campus.

YourLandlord
10-27-2009, 04:40 PM
What they say about Durham and the perceived dangers and unpleasantness in the city are so similar that I've wondered what the source is on campus.

I'm not so sure it's "perceived" dangers...when students regularly get mugged immediately off campus (or even INSIDE the Bryan center), that is probably a "source" of this perception.

That said, this article is still stupid.

El_Diablo
10-27-2009, 04:42 PM
I've talked with many recent Duke students who've come from other regions of the country. What they say about Durham and the perceived dangers and unpleasantness in the city are so similar that I've wondered what the source is on campus.

Also in today's Chronicle...the Wachovia bank next to East Campus was robbed yesterday.

D'oh!

BlueintheFace
10-27-2009, 04:44 PM
Also in today's Chronicle...the Wachovia bank next to East Campus was robbed yesterday.

D'oh!

...so many bank failure jokes to make here

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-27-2009, 04:44 PM
I lived in Durham for over forty years. I'm not denying there are problems with violence. What I was referring to is ignorance of anything else about Durham.

Saratoga2
10-27-2009, 04:46 PM
My impression is that coach K is totally color blind and recruits the best players avaailable who can meet the academic standards. I believe all the recruits for next year are black so it seems quite a raandom occurence to me. My impression of the kids who come to Duke is that they are intelligent, good kids from good families and who are very good basketball players.

Keep up the good work coach K!

JaMarcus Russell
10-27-2009, 04:50 PM
FWIW, the first two things Duke haters bring up is that the university is located in Durham and that the majority of the basketball players are white.

I have read on several sites that Duke won't be good because there are too many unathletic white players on the team (when in reality, the only two white guys who are unathletic are Zoubek and perhaps Kelly). Olek might not be a great player, but he is clearly a great athlete, and even suggesting that the Plumlees are not athletic makes me laugh, but then again Duke haters aren't always the most logical group.

While there are many points that are at best debatable, I agree with the writer of the column that Duke's national image will improve with a black star like Kyrie Irving. When Brand, McLeod, Langdon, and Avery were the stars at Duke, they didn't get nearly the same amount of hate as the Paulus/Redick teams. The lacrosse case also did point out just how much certain people in the larger Durham community genuinely resent Duke, but the way that the columnist equated that with Durham-based employees at Duke was tactless.

SMO
10-27-2009, 04:51 PM
that game was the bomb!!!!!

Is that the game where you could break the backboard and the little janitor would come out and sweep up the pieces? That game was awesome.

I didn't read this article and refuse to based on the commentary here.

Mike Corey
10-27-2009, 04:52 PM
A learning moment for the writer of the article, hopefully.

People too often argue from the gut rather than from the head. This is clearly one of those instances, and his gut appears to need some filling with facts and figures.

SupaDave
10-27-2009, 04:56 PM
As a person born and raised in Durham, then college in Greensboro, I can honestly say that I didn't know what REAL violence was until I moved to Houston, TX a week after graduation. The news had a TOTALLY different tone...

SupaDave
10-27-2009, 04:57 PM
Is that the game where you could break the backboard and the little janitor would come out and sweep up the pieces? That game was awesome.

I didn't read this article and refuse to based on the commentary here.

Yep!! That's the one! I forgot ALL about the rim breaking!! Yes - me and my cousins played for hours trying to break that rim... (then came "double dribble")

DukeSean
10-27-2009, 04:59 PM
...

that's all I can really muster right now.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-27-2009, 05:00 PM
If you've read this far, it's worth the time to go the the Chronicle online and read the comments made on this article.

lifelongdevil
10-27-2009, 05:04 PM
Don't be too quick to dismiss the argument just because you don't want to deal with the concept of race. I think it was the coach of Navy(maybe air force) a few years back who said they needed more black players with sped/athleticism at the skill positions. The media vilified the comment, but we all knew he as right.

The authors knowledge of late eighties nba popularity isn't perfect, who cares, the larger argument is a valuable one. these days race is a tough thing to discuss, and I credit the author for being willing to go out on a limb. He's not arguing that this is right, just that it occurs.

Sure I'd be jsut as happy with Kyrie if he were white....and still had a quick first step, explosive leap, and lightning speed, but to borrow a phrase from rick pitino, that guy isn't walking through the door. How many top 30 recruits this year are white? Ill give you a hint, its the same as the number of championships we've won since 2001.

KShip21
10-27-2009, 05:27 PM
This article was incredibly disturbing to read, and I feel the writer should have done a little bit more reasearch on the subject before writing. We're excite because Irving is African-American?? There are 40+ pages on Kyrie's recruiting thread, and not once was his race mentioned. This program has been in desperate need of a highly touted PG, and now we have him. End of story.

I can't believe the editor let this be published

RelativeWays
10-27-2009, 05:36 PM
Don't be too quick to dismiss the argument just because you don't want to deal with the concept of race. I think it was the coach of Navy(maybe air force) a few years back who said they needed more black players with sped/athleticism at the skill positions. The media vilified the comment, but we all knew he as right.

The authors knowledge of late eighties nba popularity isn't perfect, who cares, the larger argument is a valuable one. these days race is a tough thing to discuss, and I credit the author for being willing to go out on a limb. He's not arguing that this is right, just that it occurs.

Sure I'd be jsut as happy with Kyrie if he were white....and still had a quick first step, explosive leap, and lightning speed, but to borrow a phrase from rick pitino, that guy isn't walking through the door. How many top 30 recruits this year are white? Ill give you a hint, its the same as the number of championships we've won since 2001.

Well the crux of the opinion is inherently flawed. Neither Irving or Barnes are viewed as landmark recruits because of the color of their skin. Sure Duke is known for having white players and that feeds into some of the disdain that some people have (who are mostly white themselves) but having Irving or Barnes (or both) will not change that any more than G Hill, T Hill, E Brand, C Boozer, J Williams or any of a number of good black players Duke has had over the years. Intelligent people know Duke has good players both black and white. Both Dawkins and Grant Hill are held in as high regard as players as Laettner and Redick

Maxwell1977
10-27-2009, 05:39 PM
Don't be too quick to dismiss the argument just because you don't want to deal with the concept of race. I think it was the coach of Navy(maybe air force) a few years back who said they needed more black players with sped/athleticism at the skill positions. The media vilified the comment, but we all knew he as right.


No we all didn't.

Race is very useful because it exposes people's stupidity.

taiw93
10-27-2009, 05:46 PM
How many top 30 recruits this year are white? Ill give you a hint, its the same as the number of championships we've won since 2001.


Yes, but the white players on Duke have all been top 30 recruits, and have immense talent. I understand that "black players are more athletic and are thus better players" is a common stereotype, but it has not been too much of a concern for Duke. For example, take the Plumlee brothers. Both have extremely high verticals, especially for their height, and Miles was the state high jump champion. Both also happen to be white. End of story.

Duke does not need black players to be successful, and it does not need white players to be successful. It needs GOOD players to be successful. Kyrie Irving happens to be a VERY good player, and plays a position of need for us as well, while also happening to be to be a great kid. And those are the sole reasons why I am happy to get him.

Btw, Have we really gotten to the point where race and athletic ability are not considered to be independent of each other?

rasputin
10-27-2009, 05:50 PM
Don't be too quick to dismiss the argument just because you don't want to deal with the concept of race. I think it was the coach of Navy(maybe air force) a few years back who said they needed more black players with sped/athleticism at the skill positions. The media vilified the comment, but we all knew he as right.

The authors knowledge of late eighties nba popularity isn't perfect, who cares, the larger argument is a valuable one. these days race is a tough thing to discuss, and I credit the author for being willing to go out on a limb. He's not arguing that this is right, just that it occurs.

Sure I'd be jsut as happy with Kyrie if he were white....and still had a quick first step, explosive leap, and lightning speed, but to borrow a phrase from rick pitino, that guy isn't walking through the door. How many top 30 recruits this year are white? Ill give you a hint, its the same as the number of championships we've won since 2001.

And all this time, I thought Kyrie was Greek. ;)

RelativeWays
10-27-2009, 05:54 PM
Duke must have its token black savior!!!!! Why else did we promise Irving and Barnes all the grape drink and Churches Chicken they could eat?



This is ridiculous

wolfpackdevil
10-27-2009, 07:29 PM
I thought Duke student's were smart...

JaMarcus Russell
10-27-2009, 07:44 PM
Well the crux of the opinion is inherently flawed. Neither Irving or Barnes are viewed as landmark recruits because of the color of their skin. Sure Duke is known for having white players and that feeds into some of the disdain that some people have (who are mostly white themselves) but having Irving or Barnes (or both) will not change that any more than G Hill, T Hill, E Brand, C Boozer, J Williams or any of a number of good black players Duke has had over the years. Intelligent people know Duke has good players both black and white. Both Dawkins and Grant Hill are held in as high regard as players as Laettner and Redick

Agreed 100%. The main change that will occur if Duke has 5 black starters is that the predominantly white fans at Maryland, Wake, and BC will have less opportunities to jeer Duke's players. I am sure the UNC fans could care less about the racial make-up of the team. Those games will always be intense :D

CEF1959
10-27-2009, 08:25 PM
Ugly and foolish, but I can't come down too hard on the guy. College newspapers are a good place for young people to make journalistic mistakes like this. I knew everything, even when I was hopelessly wrong, when I was 19 too. I'll bet he catches enough grief to learn from this. And that is why a university exists.

DevilHorns
10-27-2009, 08:45 PM
Not making excuses for the writer of this piece, but I've heard from a lot of people that aren't Duke fans that "we've turned white" and that "coach K can't recruit black players" and that we won't win again at the level that we're accustomed to until we change that.

Now obviously I don't believe this at all (since I know how recruiting is hit or miss and therefore the racial composition of the team is variable), but it has been perpetuated in lay culture IMO to a great extent. I wouldn't be surprised if some of that "culture" is found in the current student body, and so maybe this writer is sort of just reflecting some of his Duke experience, sadly.

throatybeard
10-27-2009, 08:50 PM
Ugly and foolish, but I can't come down too hard on the guy. College newspapers are a good place for young people to make journalistic mistakes like this. I knew everything, even when I was hopelessly wrong, when I was 19 too. I'll bet he catches enough grief to learn from this. And that is why a university exists.

I'm actually on this side. Racism is massively uncool, but to be perfectly honest, when I was a kid, it took me until at least 18 to get right on Gay rights. What can I say, I grew up in rural GA, I had a bunch of prejudiced people around me all the time, and I hadn't really been exposed to other cultures. This kid just needs some time to grow up, and he'll probably be rather embarrassed by this column in 5 or 10 years.

If you're still reinforcing stereotypes about dangerous Black Durham when you're 35 or 40, there's nothing I can say in your favor. But as for this kid, give him some time to learn a lesson or two. Remember a few years ago there was an AfAm kid at Duke who wrote an anti-Semitic column in the paper. Huge uproar. Letters, the whole deal. I bet that guy has gotten right on that issue since then.

BlueintheFace
10-27-2009, 09:00 PM
Somebody remember to post the inevitable letter to the editor in response to this trash that is published

DevilCastDownfromDurham
10-27-2009, 09:15 PM
I am sure the UNC fans could care less about the racial make-up of the team.

I'm not sure about that at all (http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/TheSportingBlog/131379/). Despite all the "Duke is Lilly White, UNC is Progressive" garbage out there, I've seen much more racism in Chapel Hill, including frequent use of "people from Durham" as not-very-subtle code for "scary black people."

SupaDave
10-27-2009, 09:56 PM
I'm not sure about that at all (http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/TheSportingBlog/131379/). Despite all the "Duke is Lilly White, UNC is Progressive" garbage out there, I've seen much more racism in Chapel Hill, including frequent use of "people from Durham" as not-very-subtle code for "scary black people."

Chapel Hill and Durham have been quietly at odd for years and it's much bigger than race...

stillcrazie
10-27-2009, 10:03 PM
I am not sure what to make of this, but a friend of mine who is an African-American grad student at Duke forwarded me the article this morning and basically said it expressed his sentiments and those of other people he knows. It makes me wonder how widespread this opinion is, especially among the local African-American community. This friend is a very thoughtful person, so it makes me less willing to discount the point of view, even though I disagree with it, especially if there is the possibility that I, as a white person, may be missing something.

Indoor66
10-27-2009, 10:06 PM
40 and 50 years ago, people from Durham did not go to Chapel Hill or Raleigh, at all. People in Chapel Hill did not go to Carrboro in those days. US 70 was the main route to Raleigh and NC 54 went from Chapel Hill to Raleigh through the large crossroads of Cary. IBM was the first major company in the Research Triangle Park and Cary in Wake County and Parkwood in Durham County began to grow. Areas were much more insular. It was well into the 70's before commerce in the Triangle began to flourish.

The Durham Expressway opened in the mid-70's and took you to the newly growing RTP. I-40 ended at NC 55 until into the 80's. Things have changed.

allenmurray
10-27-2009, 10:09 PM
Chapel Hill and Durham have been quietly at odd for years and it's much bigger than race...

That is certainly true.

But speaking as someone who has liveed in Durham for 27 years, and who has worked in Chapel Hill for the last 6, there is also truth to DevilCastDown's statement that the term "people from Durham", when used by folks in Chapel Hill, is a reference to African-Americans. It is commonly used that way.


Despite all the "Duke is Lilly White, UNC is Progressive" garbage out there, I've seen much more racism in Chapel Hill, including frequent use of "people from Durham" as not-very-subtle code for "scary black people."

allenmurray
10-27-2009, 10:13 PM
40 and 50 years ago, people from Durham did not go to Chapel Hill or Raleigh.

Some of still don't! :D I hardly ever go to Raleigh (what pray tell, does Raleigh have that Durham does not?) and I wouldn't go to chapel hell were it not for the fact that my office is in Carrboro. If I could tele-commute I'd never cross the Orange County line (especially now that Hillsborough has become Chapel Hill lite). :rolleyes:

CEF1959
10-27-2009, 11:58 PM
May I respectfully suggest that this little opinion piece, written by a college sophomore, is garnering way too much attention here?

BD80
10-28-2009, 12:58 AM
May I respectfully suggest that this little opinion piece, written by a college sophomore, is garnering way too much attention here?

It was published in the Chronicle, and will be used as an example of how Duke students think.

The writer should get a time out.

The editors should be removed and not be allowed to publish under the auspices of the University in any fashion ever again.

Richard Berg
10-28-2009, 01:41 AM
What T-Beard said. How many times have we called NCAA players "kids" and argued for them to get a little slack? It's true. Sophomores are often...well...sophomoric. The opportunity to be exposed to opposing points of view is an integral part of the Duke experience; I hope this young man takes full advantage.

While my knowledge of 80s NBA stars is scarcely better than his, I'll continue to quibble with his basketball-fandom trivia. From what I remember (and I obviously don't speak for all Dukies), there was just as much excitement when we signed Shav, McBob, Greg, and Kyle as there was for Shel, D-Marc, G, or Kyrie. Frankly, I'd say the first group was more highly anticipated than the second, even after you adjust for recruiting rankings.

In fact, I'm guessing much of the disatisfaction that plays out in the author's perception of white players started with top-flight recruits whose success didn't materialize due to a combination of bad luck and expectations that were divorced from reality. If Greg had kept pace with Tywon, Shav stayed healthy, and McBob found an offensive touch I don't think we'd be having this conversation. Unfortunately, they happened to play right into existing stereotypes (slow guards, "soft" big men), a habit that's hard to break no matter how many times we watch tapes of Hurley and Hansbrough. Human brains are really good at finding & reinforcing correlations -- and utterly terrible at estimating their statistical significance or causality.

The stereotype of Durham that's passed on to each influx of students probably follows the same path. Consider: even the most open-minded, fearless, & mobile freshman will have had dozens of rumor-filled conversations in the insular Marketplace before her first opportunity to venture east of Brightleaf. Most will eventually see Durham for themselves and/or start reading local news, but there's no escaping confirmation bias. Not even social science majors are immune :) In any case, it's not hard to see why many leave Duke just as the negative impression has solidified but before it's given a truly critical analysis. Nevertheless, I'm very much in favor of our residential, walkable, undergrad-focused university model -- so this is a shortcoming we'll probably just have to deal with.

JG Nothing
10-28-2009, 02:04 AM
Most of this guy's arguments are pretty flawed, particularly his take on the nature of the Boston Celtics popularity during the Bird era and his attempt to draw parallels between perceptions of Duke and Bird's Celtics. I also don't think many Duke students are obsessing about the racial makeup of the basketball team.
However, his original thesis is pretty similar to what a number of people on this board have claimed is the reason there is so much hatred directed at Wojo, Redick, and Paulus. They are white guards.

When you get past the suffocating political correctness that inevitably governs any discussion about race, there is something extremely relieving about Irving being a 6-foot-1 black guard. Duke’s successful recruitment of the St. Patrick’s prep stud is a gigantic victory in the team likability (and no doubt, diversity) department. In general, athletic and aggressive African-American guards possess enormous potential for improving a team’s fan base, more so than a player of a different race or position: White players invite a kind of natural scorn for being out of place in a mostly black game...
I do not necessarily agree with this statement, but it is similar to a claim about race that has more or less gone unchallenged on this board in the past.

Edouble
10-28-2009, 03:11 AM
The writing style reminds me of the "Johnny Rockets" story written by Steve Blake.
http://web.archive.org/web/20021213114039/www.wam.umd.edu/~blakes/project1.html

Um, what is this? It's awful! Steve Blake wrote this? I can't believe I read the whole thing.

ice-9
10-28-2009, 05:29 AM
There is some truth to the author's points. I have a Duke alum friend -- very bright, very accomplished, very wealthy -- who frequently cites the team as being "too white" as the reason for the (relatively) poor NCAA tourney performance.

Of course he was saying it in half-jest, but you know there is something beneath that facetious comment.

Now...does it mean our happiness over Kyrie's commitment is due to the fact that he's black? Clearly not, or that op-ed piece would have been written when Tyler Thornton accepted. No, the main reason is because Kyrie is expected to be a dominant PG.

But I know my friend out there is feeling just a little bit more relieved.

Sadly, this stuff is out there.

And likely even more so outside the Duke fandom.

sagegrouse
10-28-2009, 07:30 AM
It was published in the Chronicle, and will be used as an example of how Duke students think.

The writer should get a time out.

The editors should be removed and not be allowed to publish under the auspices of the University in any fashion ever again.

The Chronicle is independent of the University and governed by the Board of the Duke Student Publishing Company. I can't remember the governance with respect to editors, although the editor clearly has the ability to remove a columnist.

In defense of editors: the Chronicle is published under the tight deadlines familiar to the daily paper world. It is not clear how much prior review this column received, and how trusted a contributor the columnist was. I am sure it is now being subjected to textual criticism: line, verse, chapter, etc.

My assessment: stupid, stupid, stupid. Wandering into the thickets of racial commentary with a scattershot approach and an almost nonsensical set of statements.

sagegrouse

RelativeWays
10-28-2009, 07:49 AM
If Durham is scary gangland for Duke students, those poor Yale kids must constantly hide under their beds in New Haven. Its far worse than Durham is. Durham has its far share of violent crime but its no worse than Raleigh, Charlotte or Winston Salem. I think Greensboro has the worst crime rate in the state at this point. Durham's reputation is far worse than reality at this point. C'mon, its not Fayetteville.

oldnavy
10-28-2009, 07:55 AM
Kyrie, Lance, Nolan, Andre and for that matter Jon, Mason, Miles, Kyle, Brian, Ryan, and all the others are now DUKE BLUE. Color doesn't matter when you are getting shot at!

The race sentiment is out there though. I hear it from kids in my youth group (white kids). The interesting thing is that everything I hear is that Duke needs MORE black kids. They are not making negative race comments, but race is discussed as a factor. I grew up in Durham, specifically East Durham. I lived there from early 60's to the late 80's, and I WAS a racist. It took me joining the military and becoming born again to get past it.

Georgetown used to get bashed for being "too black" and John Thompson took a lot of heat from not recruiting white kids… this issue has been around for ever and probably will not go away any time soon, unfortunately.

SMO
10-28-2009, 08:56 AM
There is some truth to the author's points. I have a Duke alum friend -- very bright, very accomplished, very wealthy -- who frequently cites the team as being "too white" as the reason for the (relatively) poor NCAA tourney performance.

Of course he was saying it in half-jest, but you know there is something beneath that facetious comment.

Now...does it mean our happiness over Kyrie's commitment is due to the fact that he's black? Clearly not, or that op-ed piece would have been written when Tyler Thornton accepted. No, the main reason is because Kyrie is expected to be a dominant PG.

But I know my friend out there is feeling just a little bit more relieved.

Sadly, this stuff is out there.

And likely even more so outside the Duke fandom.

I know a number of people that fit the description of your friend and don't know squat about basketball either. In fact, I still hear smart people criticize the Hurley/Laettner teams as being "a bunch of white guys". Funny how those teams always did OK.

devildownunder
10-28-2009, 08:58 AM
Hi folks,

I think the writer on this was out of his depth. He was all over the place with his points and he clearly made assertions about things without first-hand, or reliable second-hand information. But we can still take something useful away from what he wrote, I think.

I don't think any reasonable person thinks K recruits colors or that he ever would for any reason. Likewise, the fanbase at Duke very obviously couldn't care less who comes to play at Cameron, as long as they can ball and don't embarrass the university. But there is one group to whom the race/image of the basketball team is (unfortunately) going to matter -- recruits.

Today's recruits aren't much younger than this writer and they hear this kind of sentiment towards Duke all the time: Duke is too white, Duke is too rich or preppy, only unathletic "fundamentally sound" white guys and "soft" black players go there while the "real brothers" who came up hard go elsewhere. These are perceptions of Duke basketball that are out there and that matters to these kids because they don't want to be associated with a school that is not the cool place to be. Some place where if they're black, they'd have to fear people will call them a sell-out and if they're white, they're an overprivileged snob, or worse, a racist.

Duke doesn't deserve those labels and I don't know to what extent these notions exist but they are definitely out there. I've heard them first-hand many times and in recent years, as K has missed out on several top black recruits, it has got worse.

We don't want a situation where top-notch players of any color are turning their backs on Duke because of an image problem. And in that regard, if Irving turns out to be the real deal, he can only help eliminate that as an issue. And that's why I'm viewing Kyrie's signing as a double coup -- top talent and will boost our image with his own. I find it regrettable that his race is a part of that but them's the fact's of life (in our lifetimes anyway) so I'm rolling with it. It doesn't mean I like him any better than any of the other recruits, I just think he has the potential to have a bigger positive impact, for more than the usual reasons.

devildownunder
10-28-2009, 09:06 AM
It is possible to be civil, knowledgable, and racist - there were a number of posts that included all three features on the PPB that appeared with regularity.

In fact, I would argue that racism cloaked in layers of civility is the most dangerous kind of racism of all - it is harder to spot and more ingrained. The klansman in a robe isn't all that scary anymore - we can see him coming. The person who wears a nice suit, speaks the "king's English" and is well versed in debate (yet does and supports things that create real hardship for folks, who for no reason other than skin color, gender, sexual orientation, or other immutble characteristics are not as powerful polticially or financially as others) is a dangerous person indeed. Even if he is civil. Being civil doesn't make you less racist.

Indeed. Yet the term "racist" has come to mean the klansman in the robe to so many people these days that when it is applied to someone, many take it as a misnomer unless they actually see the person standing in the middle of town in a sheet screaming epithets at dark-skinned people who pass by. I've been at a couple of online forums lately where we've been discussing how to "take back" the term racist from people like rush limbaugh (I would argue he perfectly fits the suit-wearing image you describe), who these days use it to actually deflect criticism of the negative racial impact of their actions by immediately saying "i'm not a racist" whenever they take heat. They know that the conduct of the word today is so cartoonish in most Americans' minds that as long as they don't wear a hood, most people will agree with that, and will defend them.

airowe
10-28-2009, 09:16 AM
Hi folks,

I think the writer on this was out of his depth. He was all over the place with his points and he clearly made assertions about things without first-hand, or reliable second-hand information. But we can still take something useful away from what he wrote, I think.

I don't think any reasonable person thinks K recruits colors or that he ever would for any reason. Likewise, the fanbase at Duke very obviously couldn't care less who comes to play at Cameron, as long as they can ball and don't embarrass the university. But there is one group to whom the race/image of the basketball team is (unfortunately) going to matter -- recruits.

Today's recruits aren't much younger than this writer and they hear this kind of sentiment towards Duke all the time: Duke is too white, Duke is too rich or preppy, only unathletic "fundamentally sound" white guys and "soft" black players go there while the "real brothers" who came up hard go elsewhere. These are perceptions of Duke basketball that are out there and that matters to these kids because they don't want to be associated with a school that is not the cool place to be. Some place where if they're black, they'd have to fear people will call them a sell-out and if they're white, they're an overprivileged snob, or worse, a racist.

Duke doesn't deserve those labels and I don't know to what extent these notions exist but they are definitely out there. I've heard them first-hand many times and in recent years, as K has missed out on several top black recruits, it has got worse.

We don't want a situation where top-notch players of any color are turning their backs on Duke because of an image problem. And in that regard, if Irving turns out to be the real deal, he can only help eliminate that as an issue. And that's why I'm viewing Kyrie's signing as a double coup -- top talent and will boost our image with his own. I find it regrettable that his race is a part of that but them's the fact's of life (in our lifetimes anyway) so I'm rolling with it. It doesn't mean I like him any better than any of the other recruits, I just think he has the potential to have a bigger positive impact, for more than the usual reasons.

Your description of the author and his article describe your post as well. I'd like to see one quote where a recruit has said he is afraid to come to Duke because he doesn't want to be portrayed as a rich, white snob or doesn't want to be viewed as a "sellout" to the "real brothers" as you put it.

I'm in between generations where race was a huge issue and one where from all I can tell based on my interactions with younger people is very insignificant. Racism won't go away because a majority of people who lived with the incessant racism when they were growing up won't let it go.

SMO
10-28-2009, 09:25 AM
But there is one group to whom the race/image of the basketball team is (unfortunately) going to matter -- recruits.

Not sure I buy that argument. If race mattered to recruits why would Kyrie Irving, Seth Curry, and other recent black recruits have joined a predominantly white team?

devildownunder
10-28-2009, 09:29 AM
Your description of the author and his article describe your post as well. I'd like to see one quote where a recruit has said he is afraid to come to Duke because he doesn't want to be portrayed as a rich, white snob or doesn't want to be viewed as a "sellout" to the "real brothers" as you put it.

I'm in between generations where race was a huge issue and one where from all I can tell based on my interactions with younger people is very insignificant. Racism won't go away because a majority of people who lived with the incessant racism when they were growing up won't let it go.

airowe,

I would hardly expect one of the recruits to say it.

No, I don't have a recruit quoted as saying "i didn't go to duke because it was too rich/white" but my statements about the perception of the school aren't hearsay. I'm an african-american and went to a black school, if you are not, then maybe i get to hear some conversations you miss out on. I'm telling you, i'm not pulling this out of thin air.

As for the greater issue of race as a whole, I wish what you said were true. sadly, it's not. I think i've probably already gone overboard on this thread with politics in another post, so i won't go further into it than that.

devildownunder
10-28-2009, 09:32 AM
Not sure I buy that argument. If race mattered to recruits why would Kyrie Irving, Seth Curry, and other recent black recruits have joined a predominantly white team?

It's a generalization. I'm not saying there is no one who wants to come to duke who is black. I am saying that any black recruit who does come here will be viewed in some quarters -- not all, not most, just some -- as a sell-out, and that recruit will be aware of that perception when he is making his choice. So i'm just hopeful that the image of the team changes appreciably over the next year or two, so that there is one less reason for someone not to come to Duke.

jv001
10-28-2009, 09:59 AM
Kyrie, Lance, Nolan, Andre and for that matter Jon, Mason, Miles, Kyle, Brian, Ryan, and all the others are now DUKE BLUE. Color doesn't matter when you are getting shot at!

The race sentiment is out there though. I hear it from kids in my youth group (white kids). The interesting thing is that everything I hear is that Duke needs MORE black kids. They are not making negative race comments, but race is discussed as a factor. I grew up in Durham, specifically East Durham. I lived there from early 60's to the late 80's, and I WAS a racist. It took me joining the military and becoming born again to get past it.

Georgetown used to get bashed for being "too black" and John Thompson took a lot of heat from not recruiting white kids… this issue has been around for ever and probably will not go away any time soon, unfortunately.

When you are "born again" it's not hard to love everyone. Thank you for sharing this. Not ashamed and Go Duke!

stillcrazie
10-28-2009, 10:19 AM
I think devildownunder is right -- there are perceptions in the African American community that some of us are not privy to. These perceptions, e.g. Duke cannot or will not recruit certain African American bball players, may be wrong, but they are out there. Kyrie Irving has said that Duke feels like home, but that may not be true for people from different backgrounds. If you take the long view, Duke's recruiting and success is cyclical, and it's time for us to come full circle -- dominate UNC and win a national championship with a team of exceptional players and solid human beings who respect each other regardless of race.

sagegrouse
10-28-2009, 10:55 AM
Hey Guys!

While I thought the column was sloppy and offensive, my friend Devil Down Under is right.

Diversity is an important management objective in most organizations. When I was with a large company, we even had to train our people to make them sensitive to the composition of pictures that were being used in company literature, external and internal. We had a lot of retired military officers and NCOs, so it was easy to come up with an informal picture of five gray-haired guys.

It was always satisfying to take a completely justifiable action to hire or promote a woman or a minority. We certainly didn't want to project an image to our clients and our employees as (literally) an "old boys club."

So, Kyrie Irving is black. Is that a big deal? No. Is it a check mark? Well only maybe, given that the other three new players next year are also black.

sagegrouse

BobbyFan
10-28-2009, 11:21 AM
I'm in between generations where race was a huge issue and one where from all I can tell based on my interactions with younger people is very insignificant.

Racism is much harder to spot today than it was generations ago; however, it doesn't follow that it has proportionately declined. I would agree that the overall degree of racism has decreased, but it still exists. And it is absolutely significant.

MulletMan
10-28-2009, 11:35 AM
Let me just interject here... I am not going to moderate any posts in this thread (in retrospect, that is untrue), as I have already participated in the thread, and I wouldn't want anyone to think that I deleted or modified their post due to a personal agenda.

That being said, I would recommend that everyone think about what they are posting in this thread as a reflection of the Duke community and basketball program.

Additionally, this thread will not devolve into a discussion of the PPB, so just be aware of that.

Gracias.:D

DukieInKansas
10-28-2009, 11:37 AM
I readily admit that I don't get too involved in recruiting issues. I recognize names but not much else about potential recruits. I wait until they start at Duke to pay attention to that part.

That being said, I didn't know about the color of Kyrie's skin until this thread. :o I only knew he was a highly rated prospect. That makes me chuckle. :D

SupaDave
10-28-2009, 12:03 PM
Well I guess it's a good thing that black people don't read message boards. I would encourage some of you to REALLY think before you type - PLEASE.

YourLandlord
10-28-2009, 12:09 PM
getting off track, but this Chronicle article was still dumb.

JBDuke
10-28-2009, 12:30 PM
I am - at least temporarily - closing this thread. From the beginning, it really was much more of a public policy thread than a basketball one, and it's only gotten moreso as the posts accumulated. Additionally, given that the subject is race/race relations/racism, it's a highly flammable one as well. That's the kind of stuff we try to avoid here.

I've also deleted a number of threads regarding the demise of the PPB. They were barely, at best, germane to the thread, and started speculations about why it was shut down and so forth. We've said all we're going to say about the demise of the PPB.

If the consensus of the mods is that this thread should remain on topic due to the loose connection to basketball, one of us will reopen it later.