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feldspar
10-22-2009, 11:52 PM
Perhaps I didn't pose my query in a respectable enough fashion for it not to be deleted by the mods so I'll try again.

I'm confused by this statement DBR made in their front-page article:


By the time he announced, everyone who cared already knew that Kyrie Irving was headed to Duke, which is probably too bad. News is news, and there’s definitely a market for this kind of news, but it is too bad that he didn’t get the chance to have his moment. That’s pretty much the world we live in now, unfortunately, where the drive for recruiting news trumps a 17-year-old kid’s chance to have a day in the spotlight.

Maybe I'm not up to speed on how recruiting works, but wouldn't the easiest way for the word not to get out to not tell anybody? And if you tell someone, don't you have the realistic expectation, as people (like us) slobber over every bit of recruiting info possible, that it's going to get out somehow or some way?

I guess I just don't understand. If someone could please explain I'd appreciate it.

-jk
10-23-2009, 12:02 AM
You're first post (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=323140#post32314) is still around, though it may have been moved around.

I think it's a fairly common courtesy to tell the unfortunate coaches that you won't be going there before you go public, as well as telling your future coach. Though it happens, I gather it's rather rare to have a surprise announcement these days.

So it is, indeed, a shame that the coaches, having been extended a courtesy, don't return it in good faith.

-jk

duke09hms
10-23-2009, 12:02 AM
Sometimes the recruit will alert the staff of other schools that he has already chosen another school and is just waiting for the opportune time to announce. Kind of a classy thing to do.

Seems like kyrie might have let some of the other coaching staffs know so they could pursue other players while he waits to announce. I guess they leaked the news though.

As an '09 grad who suffered 4 years of average playmaking, I cannot tell you how badly we've missed a true point since the days of duhon and j-will.

Welcome to Duke, Kyrie!!

Azdukefan
10-23-2009, 12:15 AM
Sometimes the recruit will alert the staff of other schools that he has already chosen another school and is just waiting for the opportune time to announce. Kind of a classy thing to do.

Seems like kyrie might have let some of the other coaching staffs know so they could pursue other players while he waits to announce. I guess they leaked the news though.

As an '09 grad who suffered 4 years of average playmaking, I cannot tell you how badly we've missed a true point since the days of duhon and j-will.

Welcome to Duke, Kyrie!!

Suffered average playmaking? Come on man, you are talking about a couple of thirty win seasons. While we didnt have a true pg, to say there weren't too many plays made is an exaggeration. I wish I could have suffered through all of those horrific wins!

Edouble
10-23-2009, 01:08 AM
As an '09 grad who suffered 4 years of average playmaking, I cannot tell you how badly we've missed a true point since the days of duhon and j-will.

Why can't you tell us?

juise
10-23-2009, 01:27 AM
Suffered average playmaking? Come on man, you are talking about a couple of thirty win seasons. While we didnt have a true pg, to say there weren't too many plays made is an exaggeration. I wish I could have suffered through all of those horrific wins!

Give the man (woman?) a break! He (she?) only had the privilege of observing 4 first round drafts picks and two players who had their numbers retired. It's an outright travesty! No playmakers in that group.


(This thread wasn't going anywhere else productive, so I figured I'd pile on by reminding my fellow alumnus how spoiled we are as Duke fans.)

SilkyJ
10-23-2009, 01:36 AM
in fairness to duke'09, i believe he was referring directly to our PG situation during those years when we had: Ewing, Dockery/Paulus, Paulus, Paulus/Nolan.

Not the greatest true PG playmakers we've ever had. In fact, Dock and Paulus are the only true PGs on that list and were by most accounts "busts" as college players...

Edouble
10-23-2009, 01:46 AM
in fairness to duke'09, i believe he was referring directly to our PG situation during those years when we had: Ewing, Dockery/Paulus, Paulus, Paulus/Nolan.

Not the greatest true PG playmakers we've ever had. In fact, Dock and Paulus are the only true PGs on that list and were by most accounts "busts" as college players...

No Ewing in the years he's (she's) mentioning though, assuming he/she graduated in four years.

Duvall
10-23-2009, 01:54 AM
As an '09 grad who suffered 4 years...

Now this might be why people hate us.

cato
10-23-2009, 02:03 AM
in fairness to duke'09, i believe he was referring directly to our PG situation during those years when we had: Ewing, Dockery/Paulus, Paulus, Paulus/Nolan.

Not the greatest true PG playmakers we've ever had. In fact, Dock and Paulus are the only true PGs on that list and were by most accounts "busts" as college players...

Busts? Really? I don't get too exercised when Monday morning QBs and couch jockeys call arrogant pro athletes "busts", but it's pretty low to call either Dock and Paulus a bust. Both were captains during their career. Both gave their all to Duke and their teammates. I can't think of anything they did to deserve being trashed by anonymous internet posters who call themselves Duke fans.

duke09hms
10-23-2009, 02:37 AM
I think we can all relax a bit, especially since today is such an awesome day.

Sure, I admit that as Duke fans, we have hugely high expectations borne of our past success just like the other elite bball schools (UNC, KU), and so relative comparisons with normal schools don't do us justice.

My point is that our lack of a true playmaking PG, the most important position in college basketball, who can run the offense to create easy high-percentage shots has been especially salient. Failing to get one over the last 4 years while in stark contrast, the heels having a terrific PG during this time didn't help at all either.

Kyrie is a refreshing VERY welcome addition to a team that has lacked his essential skills since Mr. Duhon. We can all celebrate Kyrie's decision today, and look forward to Harrison's visit tomorrow. Can't wait to see him (and hopefully them) play next year!

flyingdutchdevil
10-23-2009, 05:51 AM
Busts? Really? I don't get too exercised when Monday morning QBs and couch jockeys call arrogant pro athletes "busts", but it's pretty low to call either Dock and Paulus a bust. Both were captains during their career. Both gave their all to Duke and their teammates. I can't think of anything they did to deserve being trashed by anonymous internet posters who call themselves Duke fans.

Awesome. Back to this discussion. *Sigh*. Can we agree that Paulus and Dock weren't busts, but never lived up to the expectations that were bestowed upon them at the end of high school?

brevity
10-23-2009, 09:31 AM
Says DBR here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=30028):


By the time he announced, everyone who cared already knew that Kyrie Irving was headed to Duke, which is probably too bad.

1. I do care, but didn't know. The recruiting threads have become unreadable -- the savior complex is getting ridiculous -- so I just wait for announcements.

2. There's really no room for negativity when you make an announcement like this, especially in your opening line. The best reading of the above statement makes the writer sound strangely defeated, and any misreading would suggest that the signing is bad news. Neither is the case, because this is great news. You really want to open with a lamentation for the lack of surprise? Learn to write better.

feldspar
10-23-2009, 12:50 PM
Now this might be why people hate us.

He didn't say "suffered through 4 average seasons."

He said "suffered through 4 years of average playmaking."

Paulus was average. Not great, not outstanding, but average. There were more than enough times he made me want to pull my hair our. Last year was probably a little above average, I'd say, with Scheyer and Nolan carrying more of the playmaking load but I really don't see how you can vehemently argue that Paulus was an "above average" point guard. Why the constant need to blow sunshine up all of our players (especially former players) behinds?

feldspar
10-23-2009, 12:52 PM
Says DBR here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=30028):



1. I do care, but didn't know. The recruiting threads have become unreadable -- the savior complex is getting ridiculous -- so I just wait for announcements.

2. There's really no room for negativity when you make an announcement like this, especially in your opening line. The best reading of the above statement makes the writer sound strangely defeated, and any misreading would suggest that the signing is bad news. Neither is the case, because this is great news. You really want to open with a lamentation for the lack of surprise? Learn to write better.

Yeah, I guess I didn't "care" either. :rolleyes:

Duvall
10-23-2009, 01:41 PM
He didn't say "suffered through 4 average seasons."

He said "suffered through 4 years of average playmaking."

Paulus was average. Not great, not outstanding, but average. There were more than enough times he made me want to pull my hair our. Last year was probably a little above average, I'd say, with Scheyer and Nolan carrying more of the playmaking load but I really don't see how you can vehemently argue that Paulus was an "above average" point guard. Why the constant need to blow sunshine up all of our players (especially former players) behinds?

The problem is not describing Greg Paulus as an average point guard. The problem is describing the experience of living through four years of average point guard play from your team as "suffering."

feldspar
10-23-2009, 02:13 PM
The problem is not describing Greg Paulus as an average point guard. The problem is describing the experience of living through four years of average point guard play from your team as "suffering."

Suffer: 1 a : to submit to or be forced to endure <suffer martyrdom> b : to feel keenly : labor under <suffer thirst>
2 : undergo, experience
3 : to put up with especially as inevitable or unavoidable
4 : to allow especially by reason of indifference <the eagle suffers little birds to sing — Shakespeare>

No, still not seeing a problem here. Fans do this all the time. It's not like he's comparing himself to a tortured prisoner or a cancer patient.

Duvall
10-23-2009, 02:25 PM
Fans do this all the time.

Fans are, by and large, idiots. That doesn't mean that we should encourage them.

duke09hms
10-23-2009, 02:53 PM
so this must be what a recruit feels like, having every word scrutinized and deconstructed.

This thread is becoming irrelevant, but the point is simply how awesome it will be to have a TRUE PG running our offense for the first time in a while.

We should celebrate even more because it has been quite strange for a program of duke's stature to be without a true point guard from 2004 to 2010. I'm not even talking about a star breakdown/nba prospect PG like lawson or collison here, just an above-average college PG with the handle, speed, and vision to create.

Welcome to Duke, Mr. Irving, and best of luck with your senior year!

SupaDave
10-23-2009, 03:04 PM
For those of you who continue to volley the absurd, I don't think you can call anything that has happened at Duke in the last 4 years average. Considering that Duke plays nothing but top level talent in the best conference and still puts up numbers - that alone to me says at a minimum "above average". Oh and a few championships thrown in just for good measure. How in the world do you go from "average" to "outstanding" - leaves a lot of wriggle room for performance measures.

Actually I can think of plays off the top of my head. Greg had some awesome ones his freshmen year and I most certainly remember him lighting up UNC.

G dunking on the whole Maryland team last year was a pretty exceptional play.

Scheyer has done some downright incredible stuff. Singler shooting threes right in opponents faces.

Like seriously, what is AVERAGE? Instead of defining the word "suffer" - you might need to clarify AVERAGE.

You guys even have Duvall being positive so something is wrong!

duke09hms
10-23-2009, 03:21 PM
I think you're missing the point.
Absolutely no one or anyone in their right mind is saying duke has been average the last few years. I mean, come on, 30 win seasons, ACC championships are pretty sweet. No one's going to debate G's ridiculous dunks, Scheyer's sneaky drives into the lane, and Singler's all-around excellence as being average. Freaking awesome plays are how I'd describe them.

But what has been average and what probably has held us back, especially in the tournament, is our point guard play, the ability to create opportunities for others. Especially when opposing teams in the postseason are playing focused D in the half-court, and it becomes harder to sink the mid-long range jump shots.

Duke basketball will probably have gone (for the most part) from 2004 post-Duhon to 2010 without a very good/above-average point guard, the most important IMO position on a college team. Not that we havent accomplished many noteworthy achievements and fielded some truly amazing teams that have been a pleasure to watch in that time, but something has been missing. Something that should not be absent for that long at a school like Duke.

Wander
10-23-2009, 03:34 PM
For those of you who continue to volley the absurd, I don't think you can call anything that has happened at Duke in the last 4 years average.

Actually, the statistics do back up his assertion. Look at kenpom.com, particularly the A/FGM (assist per field goal made) numbers. It's not a perfect stat but it does strongly support the idea that our playmaking has been average the past few years.

And I don't know why you're bringing up G dunking on anyone. The original poster was quite clearly referring to "playmaking" in the traditional basketball sense of the word, not the literally technical one.

feldspar
10-23-2009, 06:55 PM
For those of you who continue to volley the absurd, I don't think you can call anything that has happened at Duke in the last 4 years average.
Really? Not anything?

Hm.

I seem to remember that, in 2007, Duke finished 8-8 in the ACC. That made them 6th out of 12 teams. That seems rather average to me.

At this point, I'm definitely convinced that this is one of the reasons some people hate us. Our fan base irrationally thinks we're the cats pajamas even when we're just average, just because we have Duke on our jersey.

SupaDave
10-23-2009, 08:50 PM
Really? Not anything?

Hm.

I seem to remember that, in 2007, Duke finished 8-8 in the ACC. That made them 6th out of 12 teams. That seems rather average to me.

At this point, I'm definitely convinced that this is one of the reasons some people hate us. Our fan base irrationally thinks we're the cats pajamas even when we're just average, just because we have Duke on our jersey.

But really - one year? I think you are reinforcing your own sentiment...

miramar
10-23-2009, 10:12 PM
Awesome. Back to this discussion. *Sigh*. Can we agree that Paulus and Dock weren't busts, but never lived up to the expectations that were bestowed upon them at the end of high school?

I should think we would be able to do so in a reasonable fashion without too much recrimination. It's a shame we can't. For example, as much as I like Paulus, Rivals had him ranked #11 in the country, one spot behind Hansbrough, but things just didn't work out as well as we would have liked.

No matter what, we should at least be able to agree with Coach K's take: “The last two years we won 59 games without having that so-called breakdown guy or that guy who is going to do something spectacular for you."

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AhdmsG6bbSugw7BxGsi99w3evbYF?slug=dw-duke102309&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Needless to say, we can assume that the "so-called breakdown guy" would be the team's point guard.

If we want to get worked up about something, how about the article's title of "Coach K, Duke Matter Again"? In my book 59 wins (or was it 58?) in two seasons matter a great deal.