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aheel4ever
10-19-2009, 11:26 AM
"UNC has an imposing winning percentage at the Dean Dome because it has had excellent players, not because the fans are so intimidating. If they were, you wouldn’t hear UNC players constistently saying they like playing in Cameron because of the atmosphere."



If opposing players consistently say they like playing somewhere, how intimidating is it?

Indoor66
10-19-2009, 12:02 PM
"UNC has an imposing winning percentage at the Dean Dome because it has had excellent players, not because the fans are so intimidating. If they were, you wouldn’t hear UNC players constistently saying they like playing in Cameron because of the atmosphere."



If opposing players consistently say they like playing somewhere, how intimidating is it?

Troll much?

Duvall
10-19-2009, 12:02 PM
"UNC has an imposing winning percentage at the Dean Dome because it has had excellent players, not because the fans are so intimidating. If they were, you wouldn’t hear UNC players constistently saying they like playing in Cameron because of the atmosphere."



If opposing players consistently say they like playing somewhere, how intimidating is it?

Because elite players love a challenge, love competition. It's how they got good enough to play at the highest levels of college basketball.

allenmurray
10-19-2009, 12:15 PM
Troll much?

From his/her post count I'd guess about 18 times. :)

Wander
10-19-2009, 12:20 PM
If opposing players consistently say they like playing somewhere, how intimidating is it?

Is that you, Greivis?

chrisheery
10-19-2009, 12:28 PM
I thought the same thing when I read that.

To start, I think we can all agree that the Dean Dome is not an intimidating place to play. It is downright quiet for many games.

As to the question about Cameron, I think it is a reasonable one to ask. Many have all bemoaned the lack of spontineity and "going for the throat" by the crazies in recent years. The underlying theme of that discussion seems to be that Cameron just isn't "scary" like it once was.

Its still the best place in the world to watch a basketball game, still gives a great home court advantage, but it is reasonable to ask why it is considered intimidating if players love playing there and our most loyal fans complain that it is not intimidating anymore. No?

BlueintheFace
10-19-2009, 12:33 PM
Don't feed him... he'll just get more bold

airowe
10-19-2009, 12:38 PM
Cameron can be both enjoyable and intimidating. They're not mutually exclusive.
For high-level college basketball players, an intimidating environment is a challenge, and an environment where they thrive. JJ loved the ire of opposing fans when it was directed at him and not his family.

aheel4ever
10-19-2009, 12:50 PM
I thought the same thing when I read that.

To start, I think we can all agree that the Dean Dome is not an intimidating place to play. It is downright quiet for many games.

As to the question about Cameron, I think it is a reasonable one to ask. Many have all bemoaned the lack of spontineity and "going for the throat" by the crazies in recent years. The underlying theme of that discussion seems to be that Cameron just isn't "scary" like it once was.

Its still the best place in the world to watch a basketball game, still gives a great home court advantage, but it is reasonable to ask why it is considered intimidating if players love playing there and our most loyal fans complain that it is not intimidating anymore. No?

I appreciate the rational response. My intent wasn't to troll, although I'm not surprised that some took it that way.

I do agree that for many games, the Dean Dome is quiter than many arenas. Although, I'd also submit that for most of those games, there's no real need for intimidation of the opponent. I also agree that Cameron is a great environment in which to watch a game. But, is it intimidating?

BD80
10-19-2009, 01:15 PM
I appreciate the rational response. My intent wasn't to troll, although I'm not surprised that some took it that way.

I do agree that for many games, the Dean Dome is quiter than many arenas. Although, I'd also submit that for most of those games, there's no real need for intimidation of the opponent. I also agree that Cameron is a great environment in which to watch a game. But, is it intimidating?

If one's only experience in viewing college basketball were the Dean Dome, I can understand how one could wonder that a college basketball venue could ever be intimidating.

However, there is much anecdotal evidence that Cameron is intimidating, to the point where opposing players have refused to travel with the team to Durham.

Yes, Carolina has had recent success against Duke, but it is cyclical. The winds of change could well be whistling through, whispering "Harrison Barnes, Kyrie Irving, Austin Rivers."

Consider also that one of Carolina's advantages is that they can promise a recruit a chance to play in Cameron each year.

weezie
10-19-2009, 01:23 PM
Consider also that one of Carolina's advantages is that they can promise a recruit a chance to play in Cameron each year.

Well said BD, yes indeed. :D Whereas the Duke recruiters can mention the fact that the deandome is only a quick bus ride away, thereby giving the players a travel break and less time spent away from the hallowed halls of Duke.

Indoor66
10-19-2009, 01:26 PM
Well said BD, yes indeed. :D Whereas the Duke recruiters can mention the fact that the deandome is only a quick bus ride away, thereby giving the players a travel break and less time spent away from the hallowed halls of Duke.

As well as a the nosedome providing a quiet place to play. :p

jipops
10-19-2009, 01:27 PM
Any place that has a history of piping in fake crowd noise should definitely not have a label of Intimidating.

aheel4ever
10-19-2009, 01:27 PM
If one's only experience in viewing college basketball were the Dean Dome, I can understand how one could wonder that a college basketball venue could ever be intimidating.
However, there is much anecdotal evidence that Cameron is intimidating, to the point where opposing players have refused to travel with the team to Durham.

Yes, Carolina has had recent success against Duke, but it is cyclical. The winds of change could well be whistling through, whispering "Harrison Barnes, Kyrie Irving, Austin Rivers."

Consider also that one of Carolina's advantages is that they can promise a recruit a chance to play in Cameron each year.

1. I assure you I've seen many, many games in Cameron.
2. I was referring more to Cameron in more recent years (say, post 2000).
3. Of course, it's cyclical. But, does Duke having Barnes (for sake of discussion), Irving and Rivers make the Cameron arena more intimidating?
4. I agree. It's a great environment to win in.

Duvall
10-19-2009, 01:28 PM
As well as a the nosedome providing a quiet place to play. :p

And for the guys on the bench, a quiet place to study.

RelativeWays
10-19-2009, 03:44 PM
Is this a poke by a UNC fan, sure, but its a legit question and hardly much of a troll post. If you compare the venues as of late, I think Cameron is still one of the premier places to play, the dean dome is a bit more sterile but some of that comes with having a private school with a smaller fan base versus the state school with a huge fan base.

Compared to the 90's the Dean Dome is more active like a college venue as opposed to the wine and cheese crowd but its still got a ways to go to be "intimidating". I think Duke as one of the better winning percentages there of the teams that play UNC at Chapuh Heeyah and thats at its loudest. To be fair to the sheep to an extent, I don't know of any basketball team that plays at a pro style arena that could be considered really intimidating. UMD needs to go back to Cole Field house.

Cameron is still loud, but its nowhere near what it was. I still remember seeing the 92 Duke team destroy Ga Tech by 20 and it was one of the loudest experiences I've ever been two. I been a few times since 2007 and it doesn't quite match up. Now kids relish the opportunity to try to show Duke up on its home floor, remember that Jimmy Baron kid with URI? He thrived off of the crazies. I think thats why K wants the cheer sheets dumped. He wants spontenaity and fans who show a lot of nerve to rattle the other teams players, not prefabricated chants that gives kids a chance to pat themselves on the back for how clever they are.

I think Cameron has become a bit too cute and clever, I think it needs to be a bit mean. Not rude, crude, distasteful or ugly, but mean and maaaaaybe a little condescending to the opposing players. Thats how I remember CIS in the late 80's early 90's.

micah75
10-19-2009, 06:30 PM
I'm not a Carolina fan, but I have to admit I do hate to see all the heavy trash talk directed towards Chappa Heeya. I just feel it's bad karma. Can't we give beaucoop props (sp?) without having to trash our close rival and their players and coach? Seriously. Prop our team, let the other team go its own way. Harsh criticism, however well-intended, seems to me to be a no-win boomerang jinx. IMHO. Based on past experience since 2001. Hint, hint.

Duvall
10-19-2009, 06:56 PM
Cameron is still loud, but its nowhere near what it was. I still remember seeing the 92 Duke team destroy Ga Tech by 20 and it was one of the loudest experiences I've ever been two. I been a few times since 2007 and it doesn't quite match up. Now kids relish the opportunity to try to show Duke up on its home floor, remember that Jimmy Baron kid with URI? He thrived off of the crazies. I think thats why K wants the cheer sheets dumped. He wants spontenaity and fans who show a lot of nerve to rattle the other teams players, not prefabricated chants that gives kids a chance to pat themselves on the back for how clever they are.

I think Cameron has become a bit too cute and clever, I think it needs to be a bit mean. Not rude, crude, distasteful or ugly, but mean and maaaaaybe a little condescending to the opposing players. Thats how I remember CIS in the late 80's early 90's.

So you returned to a place you remembered from your youth, and it turned out to be less impressive than you recalled? I'm not sure that the cheer sheets are to blame here.

RelativeWays
10-19-2009, 08:03 PM
They may not be the root of the problem (maybe something of a scapegoat) maybe the fans in general have become more reserved (me included) Its a bit disconcerting that CIS isn't quite as feared as it used to be and I'd like the pendulum swing back in the other direction a bit.

In a way, I want CIS attendees to have fun and ultimately be good sports, but I want some meanness, arrogance and derision, just a hint, but enough to get under the skin of the opposing players. Everyone hates us and thinks we're a bunch of arrogant d bags. Fine, if they want us Duke fans to be the William Zabka of college basketball, then we'll be the William Zabka of college basketball, and I say we sweep a lot of legs on the way. Might as well have some fun being hated.

camion
10-19-2009, 08:04 PM
So you returned to a place you remembered from your youth, and it turned out to be less impressive than you recalled? I'm not sure that the cheer sheets are to blame here.

I know what you mean. I recently visited the house where I lived as a child and noticed that the doorknobs are lower than they were back then. :o

Edouble
10-19-2009, 09:55 PM
He wants spontenaity and fans who show a lot of nerve to rattle the other teams players, not prefabricated chants that gives kids a chance to pat themselves on the back for how clever they are.

I think it needs to be a bit mean.

I agree. My whole goal as an undergrad was to get into at least one player's head in each game. There were several others who shared this passion. I remember this guy (a Crazy) that I was a little intimidated by, and we were on the same "team". Imagine how the visitors felt!

It doesn't take as much nerve to hide behind a cheer sheet as it does to yell a 20 minute constant stream of insults at a burly 6'8" forward who's stretching out 5 feet away from you.

Duvall
10-19-2009, 10:00 PM
I agree. My whole goal as an undergrad was to get into at least one player's head in each game. There were several others who shared this passion. I remember this guy (a Crazy) that I was a little intimidated by, and we were on the same "team". Imagine how the visitors felt!

It doesn't take as much nerve to hide behind a cheer sheet as it does to yell a 20 minute constant stream of insults at a burly 6'8" forward who's stretching out 5 feet away from you.

I highly doubt that the visitors noticed any of you. They had much more important things to worry about.

Al McGuire was great, but I really hate that he encouraged all of this self-indulgent nonsense. Memo to Duke fans - it isn't about you, and it never was.

SupaDave
10-19-2009, 10:20 PM
I highly doubt that the visitors noticed any of you. They had much more important things to worry about.

Al McGuire was great, but I really hate that he encouraged all of this self-indulgent nonsense. Memo to Duke fans - it isn't about you, and it never was.

Ummm, just to keep this thread in check. I have to disagree that the fans don't matter cause ya know, these are STUDENT athletes who play for their university, ITS fans, the students, and the alumni. They often solicit money from many interest groups to fund certain portions of the athletic program. But that's neither here nor there...

To the point of Cameron being "tougher" to play in - well of course it's hot as all get out in there, there's very little room to manuever, the fans are right on top of you, the noise can be incredible, and you NEVER know just what the Crazies may have for you. So if you're a marquee player you know they are thinking about you and you are thinking about them. You just might give them the finger. But you also want to shoot on Cameron's "soft" rims. There's a plus in there if you can be focused.

Well I'm young but I still managed to go a game in the old gym and a couple in the Dean Dome. The Dean Dome wasn't designed to be intimidating - it was designed to be the triangle's version of a "pro-level" stadium at a time when NC State was still playing on campus in a rickety gym. That was their intent the entire time they designed the Dome. That's what it was all about. NOW that it's not such an imposing building in the grand world of Dallas Cowboys Stadiums it's not considered to be the super structure that it was once heralded to be. Now it's just the Dean Dome. Sit back and relax - enjoy the game.

Duvall
10-19-2009, 10:32 PM
Ummm, just to keep this thread in check. I have to disagree that the fans don't matter cause ya know, these are STUDENT athletes who play for their university, ITS fans, the students, and the alumni. They often solicit money from many interest groups to fund certain portions of the athletic program. But that's neither here nor there...

The fans matter. The people working the concession stands matter. The guys that clean the gym matter. But it's the players that people come to watch, and the sad delusion that the fans in the stands are somehow relevant to the outcome of the game should have been stopped a long time ago.

RelativeWays
10-19-2009, 10:40 PM
The fans matter. The people working the concession stands matter. The guys that clean the gym matter. But it's the players that people come to watch, and the sad delusion that the fans in the stands are somehow relevant to the outcome of the game should have been stopped a long time ago.


So home field advantage is a complete myth and entirely irrelevant. Why do so many teams waste their time trying to get it for the playoffs? Who cares, fans dont affect the outcome at all, no bearing whatsoever.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
10-19-2009, 10:43 PM
The fans matter. The people working the concession stands matter. The guys that clean the gym matter. But it's the players that people come to watch, and the sad delusion that the fans in the stands are somehow relevant to the outcome of the game should have been stopped a long time ago.

In fairness if it is a delusion it's one that K works very hard to encourage. We can all point to instances where a specific chant, stunt, etc. had a specific effect (cf Jackie Manuel's encounter with Speedo Guy) and it is conventional wisdom that teams draw encouragement from fan support (hence all the cries to come out and support the football team).

I don't think there's any doubt that many fans have an inflated sense of their own importance (the phrase "we won" should probably only be applied to players, coaches and managers). But I also think it's fair to say that loud and enthusiastic fan support can have a positive effect on the home team and, in some cases, distract opponents as well.

Duvall
10-19-2009, 10:47 PM
So home field advantage is a complete myth and entirely irrelevant. Why do so many teams waste their time trying to get it for the playoffs? Who cares, fans dont affect the outcome at all, no bearing whatsoever.

Any team is going to be more comfortable playing in the stadium where they play more than half their games, playing in familiar surroundings. And it probably does help to have a crowd rooting for you rather than one rooting against you. But the idea that one type of support is more helpful to the home team or more harmful to the visitors than another is just absurd.

SupaDave
10-19-2009, 10:55 PM
Try playing in front of NO fans. See the difference?

Duvall
10-19-2009, 10:59 PM
Try playing in front of NO fans. See the difference?

But of course that's not what we are talking about. The comparison is not between empty stands and full stands; it is between a loud, supportive crowd and a loud, supportive crowd that is "meaner" and "nastier" and whatever other term is being used to claim that The Fans Were Better In My Day, Darn It.

BD80
10-19-2009, 10:59 PM
The fans matter. The people working the concession stands matter. The guys that clean the gym matter. But it's the players that people come to watch, and the sad delusion that the fans in the stands are somehow relevant to the outcome of the game should have been stopped a long time ago.

Sssshhhhh! Don't tell the Vegas oddsmakers! Those idiots with 100s of millions of dollars on the line (pun intended) actually believe in things like home court and home field advantage, and that some venues provide a greater advantage than others! What morons!

I know we got to sit a bit closer in the old days, but I have personally witnessed, in more than one opponent's eyes, that constant verbal abuse mocking each and every mistake that player makes can very much impact a college player. On those occasions, I also typically realized that I was smaller than most major college basketball players (we were able to sit in the front row, sans a press row, back then), and that thousands of Crazies BEHIND you is of little comfort when face to face with a frustrated and angry opposing player.

If you don't want to be relevant to the game, go watch games at the Dean Dome.

Duvall
10-19-2009, 11:03 PM
In fairness if it is a delusion it's one that K works very hard to encourage. We can all point to instances where a specific chant, stunt, etc. had a specific effect (cf Jackie Manuel's encounter with Speedo Guy) and it is conventional wisdom that teams draw encouragement from fan support (hence all the cries to come out and support the football team).

It makes sense for Krzyzewski to do this. By flattering the fans into deluding themselves into believing that they are actually part of the game, he guarantees years of future ticket sales and booster donations. It's a great plan.

And Jackie Manuel was a terrible free throw shooter that was easily capable of missing four straight free throws in any gym.

SupaDave
10-19-2009, 11:08 PM
It makes sense for Krzyzewski to do this. By flattering the fans into deluding themselves into believing that they are actually part of the game, he guarantees years of future ticket sales and booster donations. It's a great plan.

And Jackie Manuel was a terrible free throw shooter that was easily capable of missing four straight free throws in any gym.

Hmmmm, how deep is this pot you're stirring?

Duvall
10-19-2009, 11:09 PM
I know we got to sit a bit closer in the old days, but I have personally witnessed, in more than one opponent's eyes, that constant verbal abuse mocking each and every mistake that player makes can very much impact a college player.

I'm sure that frustration had nothing with the mistakes that the player made, which, unlike your verbal abuse, actually affected the outcome of the game.

Duvall
10-19-2009, 11:11 PM
Hmmmm, how deep is this pot you're stirring?

What are you talking about?

RelativeWays
10-19-2009, 11:35 PM
It makes sense for Krzyzewski to do this. By flattering the fans into deluding themselves into believing that they are actually part of the game, he guarantees years of future ticket sales and booster donations. It's a great plan.

And Jackie Manuel was a terrible free throw shooter that was easily capable of missing four straight free throws in any gym.

THis may be the most jaded and cynical post I've read here (not the part about Jackie Manuel, he'd brick a hula hoop) but to say that Coach K simply wants to flatter the fans to ensure higher ticket sales doesn't pass the logic test when you really look at it. Cameron is a lot like Wrigley Field, it'll sell out for the experience alone, games that have empty seats have tickets already spoken for. There's no indication that the basketball program is headed for the red anytime soon so no need to inflate the ego of the sycophants so they'll spend more money.

I've seen several games, heard several recounts from players across ALL sports where the fans made a difference. Some guys get rattled, other guys thrive on the antagonism, some can block it out but fans make a huge tangeable impact, emotionally and psychologically. Sure its fun to believe that the crazies are all a bunch of aloof narcissists who only care about being on ESPN, for some that may be true, but good Duke teams feed off of great Duke crowds. I've seen it too much to not believe it. I don't know how anyone can be a sports fan and not believe in it.

sagegrouse
10-20-2009, 12:04 AM
I've seen several games, heard several recounts from players across ALL sports where the fans made a difference. Some guys get rattled, other guys thrive on the antagonism, some can block it out but fans make a huge tangeable impact, emotionally and psychologically. Sure its fun to believe that the crazies are all a bunch of aloof narcissists who only care about being on ESPN, for some that may be true, but good Duke teams feed off of great Duke crowds. I've seen it too much to not believe it. I don't know how anyone can be a sports fan and not believe in it.




BUt not to one's own facts. Uhhh.... Can we have some data to shed some light on home field advantage in ACC hoops?

sagegrouse

FireOgilvie
10-20-2009, 12:24 AM
BUt not to one's own facts. Uhhh.... Can we have some data to shed some light on home field advantage in ACC hoops?

sagegrouse

FWIW, Duke over the last 6 seasons:

39-9 at home and 31-17 on the road in the ACC.

jlear
10-20-2009, 12:26 AM
BUt not to one's own facts. Uhhh.... Can we have some data to shed some light on home field advantage in ACC hoops?

sagegrouse

I tried to think of a stat that by itself had the most potential impact by the crowd/venue. Vegas typically gives Duke 4 to 8 points at home (link (http://www.covers.com/articles/articles.aspx?theArt=168226&t=0))

I looked at the average free throw percentages of 10 opponents last year overall compared to at Duke. You could make an argument that Duke defense wears teams out and that causes a lowered percentage, but 10% lower?

The percent is the difference in Cameron
BC -18.9%
UNC 22.4%
Wake 16.4%
UMD -25.8%
Davidson 6.6%
NCSU -8.1%
Georgetown -15.9%
Vtech -14.1%
UVA -5.0%
UMD 6.7%
FSU -7.5%
Average -10.0%

Regardless of the advantage, I think it is more fun for the players and the crowd to have an active environment. Also I think a player can be motivated by a supportive crowd, similar to how loud fast music helps some of us work out.

jlear
10-20-2009, 12:41 AM
Don't some teams pipe super load recordings of Duke crowds into their practices? I heard Roy Williams does it.

While it is anecdotal evidence, if true, I take that as evidence that it the Duke crowd has an impact and is something to prepare for.

Edouble
10-20-2009, 01:01 AM
pipe super load

Quite a Freudian slip there.

BD80
10-20-2009, 02:01 AM
There is a definite home court advantage in college basketball, the home team wins about two out of three games.

http://chronicle.texterity.com/chroniclesample/20090313-sample/?pg=24

There is though a difference in opinion as to whether crowd support plays a significant role in that advantage.

There is support cited in the article for the theory that a crowd will influence officiating.

I think we have all seen runs where a Duke team feeds off of the crowd, but we have seen times where an opponent has "quieted the crowd." My opinion many years of watching college basketball, is that the crowd makes a difference.

A Dukie conducted a study, showing home court advantage of about 28% from 1998 -2001. Amusingly, Duke had a negative homecourt advantage, as they were undefeated on the road those three years.

http://www.ncsociology.org/advan1.htm

darthur
10-20-2009, 04:30 AM
There is a definite home court advantage in college basketball, the home team wins about two out of three games.

I think that's not an entirely fair measure, as in out-of-conference play, it's common for "minor" teams to travel to play more major teams. Having said that, Sagarin calculates home court advantage in a more sophisticated way, and pretty consistently finds each year that playing at home is worth around an extra 4 points on average.

As for some of the comments about Cameron, I don't like it when people say it needs to be "meaner". Getting into your opponent's head can be helpful, but actually being nasty is nothing to be proud of. When I was a student, Coach K emphasized several times during speeches to tenters that it was more important for fans to support Duke players than it was to go after opponents.

gumbomoop
10-20-2009, 07:49 AM
As for some of the comments about Cameron, I don't like it when people say it needs to be "meaner".

Just an intuitive opinion here - no data - but it strikes me that the most enjoyable craziness stems from humor, not nastiness. Speedo Guy, "Mr. Referee, we beg to disagree," various "props," etc. And it's at least plausible to speculate that making an opponent giggle or guffaw is as effective at messing them up temporarily as attempts at intimidation. Still, I don't doubt that players who can be intimidated..... can be intimidated.

RelativeWays
10-20-2009, 08:31 AM
I've stated that I want the CIS crowd to be meaner, but I also clarified that I didn't mean rude, crude or vulgar. I'm talking about really trying to rattle the opposing players, going for the throat when Duke has the advantage. I am certainly NOT talking about making any player endure the type of slurs and taunts that JJ had to take playing at UMD. I'm talking about if the opponents best player is having an off night, the crazies heckle him every time he touches the ball. If he shoots and misses, let out a HA HA that would make Nelson from the Simpsons blush. See, thats a tad mean, but not nasty, rude or vulgar.