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loran16
10-18-2009, 01:24 AM
So its basically settled that Duke is going to be favored in this game (My bet is a spread of -6, but perhaps i'm too optimistic).

Maryland just played an absolutely awful game vs UVA, where it turned over the ball multiple times and couldn't get anything more than 3 FGs. I don't think UVA's defense is THAT good, but it's not THAT much better than ours, and i think our O is far better than UVA's.

Also, we'll be at home.

This is a huge game for us to carry our momentum from State and get above 500 in both our overall and conference records. If we win this game, we go to Virginia on a hot streak with a great chance. Lose, and we'll need to re-evaluate. This game SHOULD NOT be like NC State last year...Maryland is not that good.

What do yall think?

CameronBornAndBred
10-18-2009, 07:24 AM
Maryland just played an absolutely awful game vs UVA, where it turned over the ball multiple times and couldn't get anything more than 3 FGs. I don't think UVA's defense is THAT good, but it's not THAT much better than ours, and i think our O is far better than UVA's.

Both UVA and Maryland looked horrible...it was like watching the bad news bears of football....on BOTH sides of the ball. Our defense has to be salivating, and at the same time we have to make sure that we play the same football we did versus VT and NCSU. If we play down to Maryland (or to UVA for that matter) then we could have ugly results. I can't remember the last time Duke could play down to an ACC opponent. (We didn't play down to NCCU, so that's a good sign).

budwom
10-18-2009, 08:43 AM
Given the horrible weather conditions, I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from the UVA-Merlin game, as ugly as it was. I suspect we'll be very slight favorites against MD, but doubt it will be as much as six points...if we don't play well, we won't win. This team simply doesn't have much margin of error.

Newton_14
10-18-2009, 03:04 PM
Both UVA and Maryland looked horrible...it was like watching the bad news bears of football....on BOTH sides of the ball. Our defense has to be salivating, and at the same time we have to make sure that we play the same football we did versus VT and NCSU. If we play down to Maryland (or to UVA for that matter) then we could have ugly results. I can't remember the last time Duke could play down to an ACC opponent. (We didn't play down to NCCU, so that's a good sign).

You hit the nail on the head. If we play the same football we did against VT and NCSU it will be a great day. I do not think the terps can stand up against that kind of effort and execution. Not expecting Thad to go 40 for 50 again obviously, but certainly expect a high level of play from him.

I believe Duke will come out strong and play well on both sides of the ball and walk away with a victory..

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-18-2009, 03:40 PM
You hit the nail on the head. If we play the same football we did against VT and NCSU it will be a great day. I do not think the terps can stand up against that kind of effort and execution. Not expecting Thad to go 40 for 50 again obviously, but certainly expect a high level of play from him.

I believe Duke will come out strong and play well on both sides of the ball and walk away with a victory..

Consistency is the key now. Execution has become more precise and crisp on both sides of the ball. Despite not playing Maryland last year, Coach Cutcliffe and the staff will come up with a thorough game plan. I look forward to seeing what unfolds against Maryland! I continue to believe that the rest of Duke's opponents will face some surprises.

jimsumner
10-18-2009, 04:11 PM
In case, you're wondering, the last time Duke won consecutive ACC games was 1994.

So, how can Duke handle the favorite's role?

It's not like they have a lot of practice.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-18-2009, 04:23 PM
In case, you're wondering, the last time Duke won consecutive ACC games was 1994.

So, how can Duke handle the favorite's role?

It's not like they have a lot of practice.

Learning to handle the role of favorite is part of that much heralded cultural change. It's time!

OldPhiKap
10-18-2009, 04:42 PM
Learning to handle the role of favorite is part of that much heralded cultural change. It's time!

Agreed. I was very impressed with the way the team acted on the field after the State game. They acted like they expected to win, and did not jump around like I did in front of the TV. Very professional. And it shows a certain mind-set that Coach Cut has brought to the team.

CameronBornAndBred
10-18-2009, 04:43 PM
In case, you're wondering, the last time Duke won consecutive ACC games was 1994.
I was wondering, thanks Jim!

CameronBornAndBred
10-18-2009, 04:49 PM
Very professional. And it shows a certain mind-set that Coach Cut has brought to the team.
Remember when we beat JMU last year, and Cut implored the fans not to take the goal posts down? He said "save it". (Actually he said save it for a certain team in less than pleasant terms :D), but to this date, even though the team has had a couple of really nice "signature" wins, the goal posts have stood. I feel the fans as well as the team understand that better days and better victories are in front of us. When those posts do come down, I'll be there. I don't know versus who, I don't know when. But I do know that it will be one of the memorable events of my life. GO DUKE!!!

6th Man
10-18-2009, 04:57 PM
Remember when we beat JMU last year, and Cut implored the fans not to take the goal posts down? He said "save it". (Actually he said save it for a certain team in less than pleasant terms :D), but to this date, even though the team has had a couple of really nice "signature" wins, the goal posts have stood. I feel the fans as well as the team understand that better days and better victories are in front of us. When those posts do come down, I'll be there. I don't know versus who, I don't know when. But I do know that it will be one of the memorable events of my life. GO DUKE!!!

I think it will either be when we beat Wake to end the season with that game making us bowl eligible, or when we take down Alabama next season. Hey...a man can dream can't he? :D

Indoor66
10-18-2009, 04:59 PM
Remember when we beat JMU last year, and Cut implored the fans not to take the goal posts down? He said "save it". (Actually he said save it for a certain team in less than pleasant terms :D), but to this date, even though the team has had a couple of really nice "signature" wins, the goal posts have stood. I feel the fans as well as the team understand that better days and better victories are in front of us. When those posts do come down, I'll be there. I don't know versus who, I don't know when. But I do know that it will be one of the memorable events of my life. GO DUKE!!!

IMO it should NEVER be for a victory over the evil ones. They are not that important that we should risk life or limb over them! :mad:

As Ozzie would day, 9F 9F 9F 9F 9F

Wander
10-18-2009, 05:11 PM
I think the next two weeks are the most important games for Duke football in a long, long time. Win both and we've officially graduated to a mid-level conference team. That would be an impressive accomplishment for a 2nd-year Duke coach.

Greg_Newton
10-18-2009, 05:17 PM
In case, you're wondering, the last time Duke won consecutive ACC games was 1994.

Heck, anyone know the last time we've been favored in an ACC game, period?

loran16
10-18-2009, 05:21 PM
Heck, anyone know the last time we've been favored in an ACC game, period?

Last year. We were favorites over UVA last year.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-18-2009, 05:24 PM
I think the next two weeks are the most important games for Duke football in a long, long time. Win both and we've officially graduated to a mid-level conference team. That would be an impressive accomplishment for a 2nd-year Duke coach.
We've got a superb coach and staff. The guys on this team (regardless of who recruited them) are a living investment in the future. The next two games are important for the fans, too. It's very important to step up and show support by being there in person if at all possible.

Coach Cutcliffe has mentioned the importance of the atmosphere which we, the fans, can create in Wallace Wade just as we do in Cameron.

There will never be too much blue in the stadium!!!!!

Newton_14
10-18-2009, 05:28 PM
In case, you're wondering, the last time Duke won consecutive ACC games was 1994.

So, how can Duke handle the favorite's role?

It's not like they have a lot of practice.

Actually, that is the one thing that worries me a little. Playing as the favorite. Hopefully our guys are grounded and Coach has them in a good mindset. I would think they would not get "the big head" but it is a concern.

Good news is, we have a coach that is fairly decent;) at coaching football and managing teams. He will have them ready.

"Duke Football, A Cut Above"

Bob Green
10-18-2009, 06:54 PM
With the college football season through seven weeks, Duke is rated # 69 by Sagarin:

http://www.kiva.net/~jsagarin/sports/cfsend.htm

We are ahead of N.C. State and Maryland, and within striking distance of Wake Forest, UNC, and Virginia.

We have opened as an 8 point favorite over Maryland:

http://www.vegasinsider.com/college%2Dfootball/odds/las%2Dvegas/

chrishoke
10-18-2009, 07:26 PM
We have to prepare for the worst case senario - in other words, the Maryland team that beat Clemson, not the Maryland team that lost to Middle Tennessee. I hope that Maryland prepares for the Duke team that lost to Richmond and got blown off the field at Kansas.

Newton_14
10-18-2009, 07:27 PM
With the college football season through seven weeks, Duke is rated # 69 by Sagarin:

http://www.kiva.net/~jsagarin/sports/cfsend.htm

We are ahead of N.C. State and Maryland, and within striking distance of Wake Forest, UNC, and Virginia.

We have opened as an 8 point favorite over Maryland:

http://www.vegasinsider.com/college%2Dfootball/odds/las%2Dvegas/

Good stuff Bob! Thanks for sharing. 69th is fair at this point I guess. If we can beat Maryland and UVA it should get us in the top 50. One game at a time though so let's take care of Maryland on Saturday.

"Duke Football - A Cut Above"

OldPhiKap
10-18-2009, 07:55 PM
True, our players are not too familiar with playing as favorites.

However, our entire coaching staff is. Seriously, when is the last time that we had a head coach and staff that were comfortable and experienced in being favored?!? Even Spurrier -- who was there when I was -- had come from the USFL which is a whole different ball game.

We may win, we may lose. But I cannot imagine that we are going in there overconfident, nor can I imagine that we are too full of pressure.

Our house. Our rules.

RIP 'EM UP, TEAR 'EM UP, GIVE 'EM HELL CUT!!!!

devildeac
10-18-2009, 08:06 PM
With the college football season through seven weeks, Duke is rated # 69 by Sagarin:

http://www.kiva.net/~jsagarin/sports/cfsend.htm

We are ahead of N.C. State and Maryland, and within striking distance of Wake Forest, UNC, and Virginia.

We have opened as an 8 point favorite over Maryland:

http://www.vegasinsider.com/college%2Dfootball/odds/las%2Dvegas/

I was kinda hoping we'd be about a 15-16 point underdog as we seemed to play pretty well in that capacity in our last two games.;)

Indoor66
10-18-2009, 08:10 PM
I was kinda hoping we'd be about a 15-16 point underdog as we seemed to play pretty well in that capacity in our last two games.;)

That big underdog thing ain't gonna happen too often now. :D

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-18-2009, 08:24 PM
True, our players are not too familiar with playing as favorites.

However, our entire coaching staff is. Seriously, when is the last time that we had a head coach and staff that were comfortable and experienced in being favored?!? Even Spurrier -- who was there when I was -- had come from the USFL which is a whole different ball game.

We may win, we may lose. But I cannot imagine that we are going in there overconfident, nor can I imagine that we are too full of pressure.

Our house. Our rules.

RIP 'EM UP, TEAR 'EM UP, GIVE 'EM HELL CUT!!!!
Right you are! For all the worrying and testing of "what if" that the fans may be doing, the coach and staff will be wasting no time on that. They know how to prepare and will do so..... don't you believe that can prepare better than Friedgen's staff? I do! Furthermore, it's a matter of being more consistent in execution. I don't expect Thad to have another day like he had on October 10, but I think he will play with more confidence and that the timing with the receivers will continue to improve.

throatybeard
10-18-2009, 09:38 PM
With the college football season through seven weeks, Duke is rated # 69 by Sagarin:

http://www.kiva.net/~jsagarin/sports/cfsend.htm

We are ahead of N.C. State and Maryland, and within striking distance of Wake Forest, UNC, and Virginia.

We have opened as an 8 point favorite over Maryland:

http://www.vegasinsider.com/college%2Dfootball/odds/las%2Dvegas/

Richmond, interestingly, is 53rd, the highest of all AAs.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-18-2009, 09:39 PM
Richmond, interestingly, is 53rd, the highest of all AAs.

Despite some of the notions to the contrary, Richmond has a very good team.

DukeSean
10-19-2009, 12:50 AM
let's remember to PACK THE STADIUM. man I wish I could go myself....someone wanna sponsor a flight and ticket for a poor seminarian?

Newton_14
10-19-2009, 09:28 PM
On the ride home today listening to the Pack Man Show as normal and what do you know... Mark Packer gives Duke some love...

He is discussing the teams in NC and walks through the current state of App St, ECU, unc, NCSU, and Wake, saving Duke for last and asks his guest hosts the question: "So is it possible that here we are on October 19th and Duke is currently the best Football team in the state?"

He was challenged a bit by one guest host. So Packer asks the guy, "Ok then, who is better than Duke at this point?" The answer given is unc due to better athletes.

Pack goes, well they play in 3 weeks so if you had to bet your life on it you are picking unc? The guy waffles and finally says yes. Packer says "Good luck with that"

It was apparent that Packer certainly felt that at this point anyway, Duke is the best team in NC. Does it matter? Not really, but on the other hand it does show Duke has made significant progress in 1.5 years under Cut and things are moving in the right direction. Not that long ago it would not have mattered how bad those other teams were, Duke was still worse.

Yes all of those other teams are struggling, but still given the past 20 years it was nice to hear outsiders say something positive about Duke Football. The next step is to get a compliment like that when the other teams in the state are not struggling but are actually playing well and our Devils are still out performing them.

loran16
10-21-2009, 07:02 PM
Sigh, the game is on ESPN360 this week. My School (Cardozo University- Yeshiva University's Law School) has espn360 access.....but is not open on Saturday's. Moreover, the remote access thingy isn't working.

Anyone know if there's a Legal solution? (I assume illegal solutions are not to be posted on this board, so please don't bother).

Otherwise I'll just listen to Bob again.....but he's painful sometimes.

-bdbd
10-21-2009, 09:47 PM
The MD/DC Media Creating Bulletin Board Material for Duke football....

As any Devils living in the DC area well know, the DC sports media is rife with Terp "homers." Many reports and Sports ancors are out of MD (I think they have a big journalism school there). Pretty much every Duke story in the TV or print media here has a negative tinge to it (or at least sees it through Terp-colored glasses).

So I loved the lead-in last night on the Comcast sports-center equivalent -- probably the "best" of a poor pool here:

"Want to know how bad things have gotten in College Park football?? Well, the Terps are actually underdogs to Duke this weekend! That's right, believe it or not..." They then went on to talk about some new uniforms MD plans to unveil (they showed some mostly-black with red trim new outfits) and suggested "maybe these will be able to change their luck..." :p


Great bulletin board stuff. I guess we'll have to "surprise" a few more "favorites" until they stop thinking of us as doormats. Should motivate a few of the guys to go kick some Terrapin arse.

Looking forward to a great game!

Rip em up, tear em up, give 'em Hell Duke!!

-BDBD

Greg_Newton
10-21-2009, 10:13 PM
Sigh, the game is on ESPN360 this week. My School (Cardozo University- Yeshiva University's Law School) has espn360 access.....but is not open on Saturday's. Moreover, the remote access thingy isn't working.

Anyone know if there's a Legal solution? (I assume illegal solutions are not to be posted on this board, so please don't bother).

Otherwise I'll just listen to Bob again.....but he's painful sometimes.

Quick question about ESPN360 for anyone that's used it - do you need to have an actual Comcast (or other approved ISP) email to log in to watch, or is it enough to just access the site through a Comcast connection? I just pulled it up and it worked, but it's streaming the same thing that's on ESPN so I figured that might be why...

Thanks.

RazzyBailey31
10-22-2009, 02:30 AM
I'm literally in shock Packer would say anything positive about Duke Football. Absolute shock. It was just last year he was mocking Cutcliffe over his comments about turning us into a contender in the Coastal. The times they are a-changin'.





On the ride home today listening to the Pack Man Show as normal and what do you know... Mark Packer gives Duke some love...

He is discussing the teams in NC and walks through the current state of App St, ECU, unc, NCSU, and Wake, saving Duke for last and asks his guest hosts the question: "So is it possible that here we are on October 19th and Duke is currently the best Football team in the state?"

He was challenged a bit by one guest host. So Packer asks the guy, "Ok then, who is better than Duke at this point?" The answer given is unc due to better athletes.

Pack goes, well they play in 3 weeks so if you had to bet your life on it you are picking unc? The guy waffles and finally says yes. Packer says "Good luck with that"

It was apparent that Packer certainly felt that at this point anyway, Duke is the best team in NC. Does it matter? Not really, but on the other hand it does show Duke has made significant progress in 1.5 years under Cut and things are moving in the right direction. Not that long ago it would not have mattered how bad those other teams were, Duke was still worse.

Yes all of those other teams are struggling, but still given the past 20 years it was nice to hear outsiders say something positive about Duke Football. The next step is to get a compliment like that when the other teams in the state are not struggling but are actually playing well and our Devils are still out performing them.

duke23
10-22-2009, 08:54 AM
The Comcast connection should be all you need; I was able to watch the VT game without an email/login.


Quick question about ESPN360 for anyone that's used it - do you need to have an actual Comcast (or other approved ISP) email to log in to watch, or is it enough to just access the site through a Comcast connection? I just pulled it up and it worked, but it's streaming the same thing that's on ESPN so I figured that might be why...

Thanks.

DukeUsul
10-22-2009, 09:40 AM
Quick question about ESPN360 for anyone that's used it - do you need to have an actual Comcast (or other approved ISP) email to log in to watch, or is it enough to just access the site through a Comcast connection? I just pulled it up and it worked, but it's streaming the same thing that's on ESPN so I figured that might be why...

Thanks.

If you are on a participating ISP's connection (Comcast, Verizon, etc.) then you can watch it without authenticating. Just having one of their IP addresses is sufficient. If you are elsewhere in the US on a different ISP's network, then you can authenticate to ESPN360 using your Comcast or Verizon login credentials and still access ESPN360 content on a non-participating ISP's network.

http://espn.go.com/broadband/espn360/faq#5

Highlander
10-22-2009, 10:54 AM
In case, you're wondering, the last time Duke won consecutive ACC games was 1994.

So, how can Duke handle the favorite's role?

It's not like they have a lot of practice.

When was the last time Duke won 2 ACC games in a single season? Was that also 1994?

Highlander
10-22-2009, 11:02 AM
I'm literally in shock Packer would say anything positive about Duke Football. Absolute shock. It was just last year he was mocking Cutcliffe over his comments about turning us into a contender in the Coastal. The times they are a-changin'.

Yeah, I remember that Duke is on "Southern Fried Football Probation" until such time as we become bowl eligible. We've been the laughing stock of college football for some time, and rightly so. Packer IMO has always been fairly even handed, and respects those who earn it, and the fact that he's giving us props means we've earned a little.

However, saying we are the best FB team in NC is one thing. Saying we will compete for a Coastal division championship against GT, VT, and Miami is another.

sagegrouse
10-22-2009, 11:09 AM
When was the last time Duke won 2 ACC games in a single season? Was that also 1994?

When Roof was appointed head coach, the team beat Ga Tech and ended the season with a win over UNC. It looked like "high tide and green grass," to quote an old Stones album.

sagegrouse

Highlander
10-22-2009, 02:29 PM
When Roof was appointed head coach, the team beat Ga Tech and ended the season with a win over UNC. It looked like "high tide and green grass," to quote an old Stones album.

sagegrouse

That's right. I couldn't remember if those two wins were during the same season. Thanks.

jimsumner
10-22-2009, 02:52 PM
"When was the last time Duke won 2 ACC games in a single season? Was that also 1994?"

The wins over GT and UNC in 2003 left Duke 2-6 in the AC. However, Duke had a loss to Clemson in between.

Duke went 2-6 in the ACC in 1998, Goldsmith's last season.

Duke was 3-5 in 1999, Franks' first year. The wins were over Virginia, Maryland, and Wake. The ACC sequence was L-W-L-L-W-L-W-L.

That last loss in '99 was 38-O to UNC. Duke wouldn't win another game after the Wake win until beating ECU in the '02 opener and wouldn't win another ACC game until Roof took over from Franks.

SharkD
10-22-2009, 02:57 PM
If you are on a participating ISP's connection (Comcast, Verizon, etc.) then you can watch it without authenticating. Just having one of their IP addresses is sufficient. If you are elsewhere in the US on a different ISP's network, then you can authenticate to ESPN360 using your Comcast or Verizon login credentials and still access ESPN360 content on a non-participating ISP's network.

http://espn.go.com/broadband/espn360/faq#5

Which is fantastic, given that:
Verizon landline service is abandoning the Durham area (and taking their DSL accounts with them)
Comcast doesn't have a presence in the Triangle and refuses to make any deals with Time Warner Cable
Being an employee/student/affiliate of a University doesn't qualify you for "Remote Access" when away from the University
VPNing from my home Time Warner connection, through Duke, to ESPN360.com is slower than molases going uphill in January and provides a picture quality roughly similar to what you'd see in a penny arcade circa 1905.

-bdbd
10-22-2009, 07:50 PM
Here's another Duke-MD football preview with a slight MD perspective. Good to hear the compliments on Duke's progress under Cut. Keep winning and they might actually start taking us seriously.... ;-)


http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/football/bal-dukefoot1021,0,2598777.story

CameronBornAndBred
10-22-2009, 08:49 PM
We are going to have a huge crowd at our brunchgate..and I'm hoping all of the other tents are equally large...but for those who are coming to the game please stop by and say hey in real life. We are at Devil's Alley..a great time to come by would be during the Devil's Walk. Look for the Brunchgate sign.

Highlander
10-23-2009, 01:15 PM
We are going to have a huge crowd at our brunchgate..and I'm hoping all of the other tents are equally large...but for those who are coming to the game please stop by and say hey in real life. We are at Devil's Alley..a great time to come by would be during the Devil's Walk. Look for the Brunchgate sign.

So you guys are no longer in the back corner of the "B" lot? I may stop by if we get there in time.

whereinthehellami
10-23-2009, 01:36 PM
Coach Cut is getting major props from alot of different sources. I know alot of hardcore Hokie fans that fear Coach Cut, especially once he gets in some more talent. I think Renfree is going to pick up where Lewis left off and is giong to be one of the best QBs in the ACC. Duke plays sound football and is coached up. Not the kind of teams other squads like to face.

CameronBornAndBred
10-23-2009, 02:23 PM
So you guys are no longer in the back corner of the "B" lot? I may stop by if we get there in time.
Nope..we rented one of the Devil's Alley tents this year. We'll be there before and after the game, halftime too.

CameronBornAndBred
10-23-2009, 02:26 PM
Weather forecast is cloudy, 60% rain...we did pretty well in the rain vs. NCCU...but that was NCCU. Maryland did awful in the rain last weekend.

brianl
10-23-2009, 02:28 PM
Cameron B&B, I'll try to stop by on the walk in and say hello.

Go Duke!!

peloton
10-23-2009, 03:12 PM
CB&B, my 16 year old son and I might also drop by to say hello to a fellow DBR member. Are there others in the 'Brunchgate' group who post here who would be there? It would be great to meet some of you guys who frequent the forums. That said, I'm very psyched about this game and am looking forward to seeing how we respond to some recent success. Let's hope we don't have a torrential downpour though.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-23-2009, 03:20 PM
CB&B, my 16 year old son and I might also drop by to say hello to a fellow DBR member. Are there others in the 'Brunchgate' group who post here who would be there? It would be great to meet some of you guys who frequent the forums. That said, I'm very psyched about this game and am looking forward to seeing how we respond to some recent success. Let's hope we don't have a torrential downpour though.

There's another group of us in the tent closest to Cameron and Wallace Wade. Please make a stop on your way! The banner says, "Devil with the Blue Dress On."

CameronBornAndBred
10-23-2009, 03:30 PM
CB&B, my 16 year old son and I might also drop by to say hello to a fellow DBR member. Are there others in the 'Brunchgate' group who post here who would be there? It would be great to meet some of you guys who frequent the forums. That said, I'm very psyched about this game and am looking forward to seeing how we respond to some recent success. Let's hope we don't have a torrential downpour though.
Yup lots from DBR and crazietalk.net are under our tent. Like DitBD said, she is a few spots down, and we have Crazy Towel Guy a couple spots as well.

DukeUsul
10-23-2009, 10:35 PM
So you guys are no longer in the back corner of the "B" lot? I may stop by if we get there in time.

I'll be there too Highlander.... don't know how early. Would be good to see you guys and the family (are you bringing them?).

PumpkinFunk
10-23-2009, 11:30 PM
Looking forward to passing by you all during the Devil Walk. I hope we have a big, loud crowd this week, because we really need it. Gotta build on momentum.

BD80
10-23-2009, 11:41 PM
... VPNing from my home Time Warner connection, through Duke, to ESPN360.com is slower than molases going uphill in January and provides a picture quality roughly similar to what you'd see in a penny arcade circa 1905.

You have to turn the crank faster!

But not too fast!

You should get the hang of it by the second half.

RainingThrees
10-24-2009, 08:36 AM
Almost there!! I won't be going to this game so I ask those that are going to be a little louder to make up for my absence. Lets prove to the nation that we are the favorites to win this game. LET'S GO DUKE!!!

RainingThrees
10-24-2009, 01:50 PM
I'm watching the ESPN gamecast and I think they are calling Thad Lewis Justin Lewis for some reason. They could at least get his name right and maybe show which reciever caught the ball.

duke09hms
10-24-2009, 02:00 PM
Touchdown DUKE!!

Thad Lewis 6/9 for 74 yds on the drive. Possession came on a stop of a MD 4th and 1.

RainingThrees
10-24-2009, 02:04 PM
Maryland just drove across the field easily, but had an incomplete pass on
3rd and goal and they had to kick a field goal.

RainingThrees
10-24-2009, 02:10 PM
Attendence is down. This is why I was asking why we play a football game the same day as a basketball game. People will go to the basketball game that doesn't matter rather than go to a football game that does matter.

SilkyJ
10-24-2009, 02:19 PM
I'm onn blackberry and can't laod snrub. My scores app said MD had ball in the red zone now we have ball, what happened?

RainingThrees
10-24-2009, 02:24 PM
We drove all the way down nearly to their red zone and on our second rush of the game King we fumbled the ball. Maryland just punted from their territory. Duke ball on our 15.

throatybeard
10-24-2009, 02:29 PM
Attendence is down. This is why I was asking why we play a football game the same day as a basketball game. People will go to the basketball game that doesn't matter rather than go to a football game that does matter.

You're right; this sickens me. In all likelihood, we have people standing in line to get into a BB game that doesn't count a few hundred yards from our most important FB game in years.

RainingThrees
10-24-2009, 02:36 PM
Thad is putting on a clinic in passing. You would never know that Vernon is a freshmen the way he is playing. 7-6 Duke, with Duke on Maryland 23.

Papa John
10-24-2009, 02:46 PM
Wow! Cut has these guys playing well! I wish I still lived in Durham--I'd be there!

D looks solid! One minute in the first half to try and put more points on the board...

RainingThrees
10-24-2009, 02:52 PM
Half time. Duke 10 Maryland 6. Duke could have 14 without that fumble, and Maryland would only have 3 if not for an interception. Let's tighten it up and win this game Duke!!!

Vincetaylor
10-24-2009, 02:59 PM
Attendence is down. This is why I was asking why we play a football game the same day as a basketball game. People will go to the basketball game that doesn't matter rather than go to a football game that does matter.

It's pouring down rain outside. Unfortunately, it seems like it always rains for home football games. That is the main reason for the small crowd. No one wants to sit outside and get drenched all day. It's too bad this is the weekend Harrison Barnes is in town. Bad weather does affect your impression of a place.

CMARTZ
10-24-2009, 03:04 PM
It's pouring down rain outside. Unfortunately, it seems like it always rains for home football games. That is the main reason for the small crowd. No one wants to sit outside and get drenched all day. It's too bad this is the weekend Harrison Barnes is in town. Bad weather does affect your impression of a place.


While there is something of a subconscious influence undoubtedly, I like to think that Harrison understands it's not all sunshine 8 miles away :)

Mike Corey
10-24-2009, 03:11 PM
It's pouring down rain outside. Unfortunately, it seems like it always rains for home football games. That is the main reason for the small crowd. No one wants to sit outside and get drenched all day. It's too bad this is the weekend Harrison Barnes is in town. Bad weather does affect your impression of a place.

It rained during Kyrie Irving's OV, too, if memory serves.

FireOgilvie
10-24-2009, 03:35 PM
We were totally robbed on that Vernon catch review. That was a TD.

RainingThrees
10-24-2009, 03:37 PM
Touchdown Duke!!!! But bad sportsmanship on Duke will cost us in the kick-off. 17-6 Duke.

freedevil
10-24-2009, 03:39 PM
Great catch!

Man I hate those touchdown celebration calls...

mph
10-24-2009, 03:40 PM
Touchdown Duke!!!! But bad sportsmanship on Duke will cost us in the kick-off. 17-6 Duke.

Not sure about the penalty. That's a pretty tame TD celebration.

RainingThrees
10-24-2009, 03:49 PM
Not sure about the penalty. That's a pretty tame TD celebration.

I hate these celebration rules. Are players supposed to have no emotions? Good thing soccer doesn't have these calls or else players would always be penalized.

Greg_Newton
10-24-2009, 03:53 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say we may want to tweak our defensive approach to 3rd and longs just a little bit.

SharkD
10-24-2009, 04:09 PM
You're right; this sickens me. In all likelihood, we have people standing in line to get into a BB game that doesn't count a few hundred yards from our most important FB game in years.

Home side was pretty full -- except for the student section, which was noticeably devoid of non-band members.

The GA seats were sparsely filled, as was the "employee season ticket" section (Away-side 35-to-35).

Early in the week, Duke made a push to employees to try to drive up attendance (if a department/unit has 20 employees buy GA tickets, the department gets a signed football from Coach Cut). Given that few University departments have 20 employees (not including faculty), I couldn't wrap my head around the reasoning.

My wife and I stuck it out through the first half downpours, but our 9-month-old got bored of getting splashed and staring at the tops of umbrellas, so we made our escape for home (and a nap for the munchkin).

duke09hms
10-24-2009, 04:13 PM
oh man, turnovers are KILLING us

this game shouldnt even be close

Greg_Newton
10-24-2009, 04:15 PM
Duke ball at on their 40, 6:30 left. Up 4. Come on guys, let's end it here!

Edit: HUGE catch for a 12 yard gain on 2nd and 10 by Johnny Williams. Great hands there.

Greg_Newton
10-24-2009, 04:25 PM
INTERCEPTION VINCENT RAY!!!! Duke ball in MD territory, 4 minutes left. Huge play.

RainingThrees
10-24-2009, 04:26 PM
INTERCEPTION!!!!!! finally we get a break. I believe it was Vinnie Rey with the interception.

JaMarcus Russell
10-24-2009, 04:32 PM
Penalties are just destroying this team. 11 flags for 96 yards.

RainingThrees
10-24-2009, 04:36 PM
Duke recovers the fumble on the punt return!!!!!!!

Greg_Newton
10-24-2009, 04:36 PM
Duke recovers muffed punt!!!! Ballgame!!!!!

The victory formation is a beautiful thing to see right now.

What a big win for us, especially because we did not play well at all. Who would think we could win our 2nd ACC game in a row by playing a mistake-ridden, sloppy game? We were just the better team, which feels great to say.

duke09hms
10-24-2009, 04:37 PM
thad sacked on 3rd and 18 on MD 38
MD punt returner fumbles punt
Duke takes over at MD 21!!!!!!

RainingThrees
10-24-2009, 04:37 PM
Thats going to be it. Sloppy win, we should have blown them out, but a win is a win and I will take that.

JaMarcus Russell
10-24-2009, 04:37 PM
Victory formation! It wasn't the prettiest game, but Duke gets the win.

FireOgilvie
10-24-2009, 04:38 PM
Awesome turn of events. Very sloppy, but I'll take it.

Thad had another good passing game (371 passing yards, 2 TD, 1 Int).

DevilCastDownfromDurham
10-24-2009, 04:39 PM
Woohooo! I don't care how we won, this was a huge game and I'm so happy to come out with a W. :)

weezie
10-24-2009, 04:41 PM
Wow! Hoos better get ready....we're bringing a winning record to Cville.

I gotta get my Duke sweatshirt starched and ironed, I hear they like to dress up for their games :)

SharkD
10-24-2009, 04:41 PM
1st Back to Back ACC wins since 1994

dukestheheat
10-24-2009, 04:43 PM
GREAT JOB football! Back-to-back ACC wins for the first time in I can't remember how long! Whoooo hooooo! 4-3!

dth.

duke09hms
10-24-2009, 04:43 PM
Let's GO DUKE!!!!

WHOOOO! Coach Cut workin his magic, and where did we get ALL these receivers from?!!

RainingThrees
10-24-2009, 04:44 PM
It just boggles my mind that we haven't won back-to-back game since 1994. Lets made it back-to back-to-back against Virginia. GO DUKE!!!!!!!

Greg_Newton
10-24-2009, 04:50 PM
If only we were in the Atlantic division... we'd be tied with BC for 1st place right now!

summerwind03
10-24-2009, 05:00 PM
I'm proud of this team. Let's keep it up.

micah75
10-24-2009, 05:02 PM
Wow... way to go Team!!! Great news.

Greg_Newton
10-24-2009, 05:23 PM
A fun fact: "Varner and Vernon -- the ACC's only two players averaging at least 100 yards receiving -- each hit that mark in this one, with Varner catching eight passes for 120 yards and Vernon finishing with five catches for 102 yards."

Those 2 guys are sure fun to watch... and will be for the next few years!

GADevilFan
10-24-2009, 05:26 PM
Congrats on the win .. 2 in a row .. important .. the ACC will have to start taking notice now. Progress.....

wallyman
10-24-2009, 05:33 PM
:)
impressive about varner and vernon, but I'm guessing someone threw the ball to them. what a two weeks for thad lewis. the guy is putting up monster numbers. great for him to have this kind of senior year.

Greg_Newton
10-24-2009, 05:49 PM
:)
impressive about varner and vernon, but I'm guessing someone threw the ball to them. what a two weeks for thad lewis. the guy is putting up monster numbers. great for him to have this kind of senior year.

Yeah, I didn't realize he piled up another 371 yards today. Add a few drops and balls that went through players' hands (including one to Austin Kelly in the end zone that preceding the goal-line fumble) and it's even more impressive.

In addition, I thought he often looked a little frustrated or "off" today (likely due to the conditions). Don't get me wrong - he made some huge plays, and is a great QB even when he's not in the zone. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if he racked up another 400-450+ yard game against UNC or UVA if the offense really gets into rhythm.

Another thing about Varner and Vernon - I don't think this is a case of hyperinflated stats due to playing with a great QB, they are the real deal. Quite a large number of their yards come after the catch.

-bdbd
10-24-2009, 06:04 PM
CONGRATULATIONS TEAM!

Good to be able to win one when not playing our best and getting heavily penalized (esp towards the end). 'wasn't able to view the game here in DC -- though listening to the one-sided MD radio broadcast was pretty entertaining... Boy, did Fridgen sound waaaay down in the post-game interview -- I imagine the players are worse-- though I don't see his job as really threatened as the DBR headline implies.

For those who watched, WHAT is the deal with our running game??? Down the stretch we really needed SOME running ability of any kind, yet kept passing and passing. Even if they are "possession" (short, safe) passes they still risk stopping the clock, etc. Is the O-line just that poor, or inexperienced? The coaches don't seem to have any confidence in our running ability at important times. Can't wait to get some big/improved recruits in there up front, or more experience for those already there.

Next week at UVA, do you think we'll be favored? I suspect not, but it won't be much either way. The players are desperate to save Groh there, and Duke may be their best (only?) remaing winable game.

Cheers!

-BDBD :cool:

cbfx3
10-24-2009, 06:53 PM
we stuck it out through the whole thing... my daughter tried her best to convince me to leave at the half but there was no way that was happening! I felt the tide of the program took a turn for the better on that long pass the the out of bounds call was reversed. Seemed like the team and the crowd came together and from that moment we were determined to win. I actually feel today was a special day in Duke football history and am proud to have been a small part in it! Too bad the students cant say the same thing. There is plenty of stuff I could have been doing today other than getting soaked and cheering on the devils... seems like the students could take a couple of hours on a wet Saturday and supported their fellow student athletes.... They should show up for the guys like Thad and V.O. that have been through so much. Only just a couple games left at home.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-24-2009, 07:47 PM
we stuck it out through the whole thing... my daughter tried her best to convince me to leave at the half but there was no way that was happening! I felt the tide of the program took a turn for the better on that long pass the the out of bounds call was reversed. Seemed like the team and the crowd came together and from that moment we were determined to win. I actually feel today was a special day in Duke football history and am proud to have been a small part in it! Too bad the students cant say the same thing. There is plenty of stuff I could have been doing today other than getting soaked and cheering on the devils... seems like the students could take a couple of hours on a wet Saturday and supported their fellow student athletes.... They should show up for the guys like Thad and V.O. that have been through so much. Only just a couple games left at home.

I was there all day. Got soaked to the skin. Had laryngitis all this past week. The rain was so heavy that even with their gloves on, the players had trouble holding on to the wet ball. It wasn't pretty, but we didn't go there to be pretty today. We went in there to win!

This was a special day for this program. Yes, it was imperfect, but there's a new direction. You can feel it and you can see it.

I wish some of you guys who are concerned about attendance would come on out to one of the two remaining home games... it will be worth the plane fare!!!!!

peloton
10-24-2009, 08:35 PM
I was at the game with my son and another young Duke fan and in spite of the weather it was a beautiful day :) Maryland obviously *really* wanted to win this one in an effort to start turning things around for their program, but the Devils were not going to be denied today. I saw a mental toughness in this group that I don't believe we've seen in a Duke football team for some time now. Yeah, they had a slight lead in the latter stages of the game but other Duke teams would have probably wilted under the pressure, not pulling out the win. As others have said, do we have some great receivers or what? Thad and those guys are incredibly exciting to watch. Speaking of exciting, we made this game much more exciting than it should have been with all the penalties and the few turnovers we had. Cut took responsibility for both in his post game contents...hopefully he'll be able to (at least) do something about the number of penalties. As shaky as our play was at times today, I'm pretty impressed that we were still able to pull off the victory. This team of course is still a work in progress but we are definitely taking steps towards building a solid program.

By the way, it was a real pleasure to meet some fellow DBR posters down on Blue Devil Alley. We met CameronBornandBred, the Great Oz(zie) :D , and one other guy from north Raleigh (sorry, don't remember your user id.) Gentlemen, we truly appreciated the invitation to partake of some of your food...very generous indeed. Devil in the Blue Dress, we'll be sure to stop by and introduce ourselves next game.

dukelifer
10-24-2009, 08:39 PM
I was there all day. Got soaked to the skin. Had laryngitis all this past week. The rain was so heavy that even with their gloves on, the players had trouble holding on to the wet ball. It wasn't pretty, but we didn't go there to be pretty today. We went in there to win!

This was a special day for this program. Yes, it was imperfect, but there's a new direction. You can feel it and you can see it.

I wish some of you guys who are concerned about attendance would come on out to one of the two remaining home games... it will be worth the plane fare!!!!!

Was there as well with the whole family. It was a very fun atmosphere- albeit very, very wet. For once the opposing crowd was pretty small and quiet- and the Duke crowd made some noise- particularly when they reviewed the out of bounds play. Duke made a lot of mistakes and gave the terps life- but in the end- they made stops and made plays. They believed they were going to win and that is the biggest difference- this team has a little swagger and who knows. We will learn a lot next week.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-24-2009, 09:11 PM
I was at the game with my son and another young Duke fan and in spite of the weather it was a beautiful day :) Maryland obviously *really* wanted to win this one in an effort to start turning things around for their program, but the Devils were not going to be denied today. I saw a mental toughness in this group that I don't believe we've seen in a Duke football team for some time now. Yeah, they had a slight lead in the latter stages of the game but other Duke teams would have probably wilted under the pressure, not pulling out the win. As others have said, do we have some great receivers or what? Thad and those guys are incredibly exciting to watch. Speaking of exciting, we made this game much more exciting than it should have been with all the penalties and the few turnovers we had. Cut took responsibility for both in his post game contents...hopefully he'll be able to (at least) do something about the number of penalties. As shaky as our play was at times today, I'm pretty impressed that we were still able to pull off the victory. This team of course is still a work in progress but we are definitely taking steps towards building a solid program.

By the way, it was a real pleasure to meet some fellow DBR posters down on Blue Devil Alley. We met CameronBornandBred, the Great Oz(zie) :D , and one other guy from north Raleigh (sorry, don't remember your user id.) Gentlemen, we truly appreciated the invitation to partake of some of your food...very generous indeed. Devil in the Blue Dress, we'll be sure to stop by and introduce ourselves next game.
Please do! I'm expecting a special party that day.

Welcome2DaSlopes
10-24-2009, 09:44 PM
I very proud of our team this year. I actually think we can finish above 500.

killerleft
10-24-2009, 09:46 PM
Big win! I haven't enjoyed a good soaking so much in years.

Not a bad crowd considering the weather. But the student attendance was horrible. What gives? I've never seen a less-supportive bunch. Too bad, our guys deserve better.

The students who showed up and stayed were really into the game, and why not? Kudos to the band, also.

DukeCO2009
10-24-2009, 10:02 PM
Big win! I haven't enjoyed a good soaking so much in years.

Not a bad crowd considering the weather. But the student attendance was horrible. What gives? I've never seen a less-supportive bunch. Too bad, our guys deserve better.

The students who showed up and stayed were really into the game, and why not? Kudos to the band, also.

I'd say the student attendance boils down to three factors:

1) The rain. It was absolutely pouring. You can't blame people for not wanting to stand out there in that deluge. FWIW, Tailgate was also a ghost town relative to its normal numbers. Rain, obviously, is a pretty big deterrent for outdoor events.

2) The basketball game--students wanted to get in line.

3) Parents weekend. You'd be surprised how many parents would rather not go to the game, and as a result a good chunk of students get stuck hanging out with mom and dad instead of cheering on the Devils. Also, a good many students sat with their parents instead of in the student section, so student numbers were a bit deceiving.


Really, though, let's not complain. Refer to reason #1. I haven't seen rain like that during a football game in a long, long time. Rather than getting on kids for not showing up, why not applaud those who decided to stick it out for a full four quarters of typhoon-like weather? Saying students don't support the team because they'd rather not get soaked to the bone is ridiculous.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-24-2009, 10:10 PM
I'd say the student attendance boils down to three factors:

1) The rain. It was absolutely pouring. You can't blame people for not wanting to stand out there in that deluge. FWIW, Tailgate was also a ghost town relative to its normal numbers. Rain, obviously, is a pretty big deterrent for outdoor events.

2) The basketball game--students wanted to get in line.

3) Parents weekend. You'd be surprised how many parents would rather not go to the game, and as a result a good chunk of students get stuck hanging out with mom and dad instead of cheering on the Devils. Also, a good many students sat with their parents instead of in the student section, so student numbers were a bit deceiving.


Really, though, let's not complain. Refer to reason #1. I haven't seen rain like that during a football game in a long, long time. Rather than getting on kids for not showing up, why not applaud those who decided to stick it out for a full four quarters of typhoon-like weather? Saying students don't support the team because they'd rather not get soaked to the bone is ridiculous.

I talked to some students before the game.... the point about parents being in town was a major influence on what they chose to do and where they sat if they attended the game. Look for improvement in this area before the end of the season.

Newton_14
10-24-2009, 10:16 PM
I pulled a double and caught both games. Got drenched during the FB game but never left my seat and loved every minute of it!

People, I beg you, please come to the games and support these guys!!! They are playing their hearts out on gameday and deserve better! While it did rain it was not a cold rain so it was more than bearable! Find a way to get there!!

Ok. That said, when was the last time a Duke Football team played a subpar game and still won against an ACC opponent. That is progress! I thought Thad was really on his game until the monsoon set in, but, luckily he and the "Killer V's" we have for recievers still got it done!!

Too many turnovers and too many penalties, but found a way to win!! Great job by our guys!!

And finally I got to meet the great "Ozzie" which was great! I stopped by the tent after the game and unfortunately missed the rest of you guys and gals but hope to catch you at the Ga Tech game!!

Go Duke!!

Devilsfan
10-24-2009, 10:25 PM
We also enjoyed the game. Wake, Va. and college of chapel hill are winable games imo. I don't ever remember saying that before.

Newton_14
10-24-2009, 10:28 PM
We also enjoyed the game. Wake, Va. and college of chapel hill are winable games imo. I don't ever remember saying that before.

3 wins away from bowl eligibility!! It will be tough but the boys can get it done!

killerleft
10-24-2009, 10:38 PM
I'd say the student attendance boils down to three factors:

1) The rain. It was absolutely pouring. You can't blame people for not wanting to stand out there in that deluge. FWIW, Tailgate was also a ghost town relative to its normal numbers. Rain, obviously, is a pretty big deterrent for outdoor events.

2) The basketball game--students wanted to get in line.

3) Parents weekend. You'd be surprised how many parents would rather not go to the game, and as a result a good chunk of students get stuck hanging out with mom and dad instead of cheering on the Devils. Also, a good many students sat with their parents instead of in the student section, so student numbers were a bit deceiving.


Really, though, let's not complain. Refer to reason #1. I haven't seen rain like that during a football game in a long, long time. Rather than getting on kids for not showing up, why not applaud those who decided to stick it out for a full four quarters of typhoon-like weather? Saying students don't support the team because they'd rather not get soaked to the bone is ridiculous.

I'll give you #3.

The football game counted, the basketball game did not. Plus, the basketball game was still there for the watching AFTER football.

Heaven forbid that the little snowflakes should get wet on a 70+ degree day:rolleyes:. And, uh... raingear?

Ultimately, if Duke students can't be bothered to watch Duke football games, that is their choice, whatever the reason. It just makes me a little sad. Also, it tarnishes the whole "Crazie" image. Turns out, Duke just has average student support - at best.

devildeac
10-24-2009, 10:48 PM
I was at the game with my son and another young Duke fan and in spite of the weather it was a beautiful day :) Maryland obviously *really* wanted to win this one in an effort to start turning things around for their program, but the Devils were not going to be denied today. I saw a mental toughness in this group that I don't believe we've seen in a Duke football team for some time now. Yeah, they had a slight lead in the latter stages of the game but other Duke teams would have probably wilted under the pressure, not pulling out the win. As others have said, do we have some great receivers or what? Thad and those guys are incredibly exciting to watch. Speaking of exciting, we made this game much more exciting than it should have been with all the penalties and the few turnovers we had. Cut took responsibility for both in his post game contents...hopefully he'll be able to (at least) do something about the number of penalties. As shaky as our play was at times today, I'm pretty impressed that we were still able to pull off the victory. This team of course is still a work in progress but we are definitely taking steps towards building a solid program.

By the way, it was a real pleasure to meet some fellow DBR posters down on Blue Devil Alley. We met CameronBornandBred, the Great Oz(zie) :D , and one other guy from north Raleigh (sorry, don't remember your user id.) Gentlemen, we truly appreciated the invitation to partake of some of your food...very generous indeed. Devil in the Blue Dress, we'll be sure to stop by and introduce ourselves next game.

I am the dude from north Raleigh/Ralegh/Raw-lee/Rallee;):D. Good to meet you, too.

throatybeard
10-24-2009, 10:57 PM
Look for improvement in this area before the end of the season.

I doubt it. It's always something. It's parents' weekend. There's a completely meaningless BB game in the evening. It's fall break. It's too early in the day. It's raining :rolleyes:. WFU game, it'll be TG, which is a bit more understandable.

I understand the family/vacation reasons, and I don't really think the students "should" support any team. They can use their time however they want. The only thing that gets my goat is this completely pathetic practice of standing in line for an exhibition BB game while the FB team pays its most important home game in years. At that point, you're already using your time on sports.

Student support is what it is. People complain constantly about Ugrad support at the BB games, but again, it's always something. Lousy early opponent. Midterms, finals. Rush. Midweek. Early timeslot. Blah blah blah. It bothers me very little, for MBB, though, because the arena is small and the team is a juggernaut that needs the support less.

Oriole Way
10-24-2009, 11:06 PM
I doubt it. It's always something. It's parents' weekend. There's a completely meaningless BB game in the evening. It's fall break. It's too early in the day. It's raining :rolleyes:. WFU game, it'll be TG, which is a bit more understandable.


Although I agree that student support left a lot to be desired, and has been lackluster for the most part for football and non-premium basketball games, I would disagree about the exhibition game tonight being meaningless.

I think it was very important for the game against Pfeiffer to be sold out and that students let Harrison Barnes know how much he is wanted at Duke. I would say it's definitely the most importance an exhibition game could possibly entail. Calling it the most important exhibition game of the Coach K era might sound oxymoronic, but getting Harrison Barnes would be huge for the program and I'm glad we had a great turnout for the basketball game tonight.

throatybeard
10-24-2009, 11:17 PM
Although I agree that student support left a lot to be desired, and has been lackluster for the most part for football and non-premium basketball games, I would disagree about the exhibition game tonight being meaningless.

I think it was very important for the game against Pfeiffer to be sold out and that students let Harrison Barnes know how much he is wanted at Duke. I would say it's definitely the most importance an exhibition game could possibly entail. Calling it the most important exhibition game of the Coach K era might sound oxymoronic, but getting Harrison Barnes would be huge for the program and I'm glad we had a great turnout for the basketball game tonight.

The point is, there's no way that game wasn't going to have people at it. It's Duke. People will turn out for MBB. Plus, I think Harrison Barnes is intelligent enough to understand he's not going to witness a Carolina game atmosphere at an exhibition game.

I don't understand why it's more important to get three rows farther forward on the TV side instead of supporting Duke in what was arguably its most important football game in 15 years.

PumpkinFunk
10-24-2009, 11:20 PM
The point is, there's no way that game wasn't going to have people at it. It's Duke. People will turn out for MBB.

I don't understand why it's more important to get three rows farther forward on the TV side instead of supporting Duke in what was arguably its most important football game in 15 years.

That's not what it was about... people didn't want to get soaked to watch Duke football. People's parents didn't want to get soaked to watch football. My mom sat through the game, and we showed up an hour before the game to slip into the 4th row within the middle area of Cameron. Men's BB wasn't a problem - they scheduled it so that students could come to both. The weather was an issue, and at a place where tailgate is the attraction of football for most people, a lot of students care more about getting soaked in rain than soaked in beer.

CBDUKE
10-24-2009, 11:31 PM
I just got back home to Chester, Va. from both games. My only different thought from what has already been said is that it didn't start really raining until the second quarter, but the student section was empty at the beginning of the game. Rain is just an excuse. By the way, my clothes are still wet and I'm sitting here reading this thread. Go Duke!!

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-24-2009, 11:33 PM
I hope we can let the issue of who should be attending the football game go. It's a discussion that diminishes the importance of the positive changes underway in the football program. This is a time to celebrate and enjoy a great win for a program on the rise.

Oriole Way
10-24-2009, 11:43 PM
The point is, there's no way that game wasn't going to have people at it. It's Duke. People will turn out for MBB.

First of all, I don't want it to seem like I disagree with you. I agree with you that student attendance for football is a problem, I just believe that tonight's basketball exhibition was pretty much the most important one Duke has ever had.

Even though all exhibition games might be considered sellouts because season tickets account for a lot of sales figures, not all exhibition games are well-attended. I attended several exhibition games during my undergrad years and many of them were nowhere close to full. I remember an ex. game against EA Sports with Brand, Avery, Battier in 98-99 that was probably less than 3/4's full.

I really think selling out tonight's game and having Cameron packed was important.


Plus, I think Harrison Barnes is intelligent enough to understand he's not going to witness a Carolina game atmosphere at an exhibition game.

I don't understand why it's more important to get three rows farther forward on the TV side instead of supporting Duke in what was arguably its most important football game in 15 years.

I completely agree that Duke football deserves more support and that student attendance has been mediocre. But there are two basic realities which make student support difficult: the size of Duke's student body compared to a vast majority of schools with Division 1 teams, and Duke football's brutal, prolonged run of complete ineptitude.

When your student body is one-third or one-fourth the size of most public universities, it's difficult to sell-out a football stadium.

But the more important factor for bad student attendance is that Duke has had a terrible program since Steve Spurrier left and before David Cutcliffe arrived. When a program wins no more than one or two games per season for more than a decade, you lose fan support. Like it or not, most sports fans are bandwagon fans who will come out to support a winner. While students certainly can do better and hopefully will start supporting a great program, the futility of Duke football (and the subsequent lack of student support) should be blamed squarely on the shoulders of a pathetic administration that refused to support the football program and make a winning football program a priority, and that failed to recognize the countless advantages and benefits that a winning program provide for a university.

I hope students come out to support their football team, win or lose, but we have to be realistic when it comes to student attendance at a small private university with an academically-oriented student population.

duke09hms
10-24-2009, 11:46 PM
AGREE!

This week has been a great one for duke. Kyrie's commitment, Duke Football grinding out a mentally tough win over MD, unc's huge choke to fsu, and by all accounts, Harrison Barnes seems to be enjoying himself.

With the type of students duke attracts, most of them can't give up an entire free day for athletics, and because it's mostly either one or the other (bball or football), most students will value the basketball game more. Ensuring the stadium is packed for Harrison Barnes visit is pretty important too. Parent's weekend just introduces another time commitment. Add in the rainy weather, and it's quite understandable. Student-bashing is silly, and when all is said and done, quite pointless because critical posts on DBR aren't going to convince students to attend games.

So instead, let's focus on the positives, which were very many this week.

-bdbd
10-24-2009, 11:47 PM
3 wins away from bowl eligibility!! It will be tough but the boys can get it done!

Sorry Booz, but you just need 6 to qualify for bowl eligibilty. And only one can be fron the second division (which is what we have). We're already 4 - 3... So just gotta get two more... and I think 3 of them are very winable. Mia and GT may be tough though. So, need 2 of the other three probably - UVA, UNC-ch and Wake. I think we will be favored in one or two of the remaining games...so certainly do-able!!

That said, w/o an established track record of fans traveling to bowls, I'd sure feel better about our chances of getting selected if we did have seven wins! But then again, the ACC last year sent 9 teams bowling -- everyone at .500 or better. Heck, I'd even take a trip to Boise or Memphis if the program could take that next big step!!

Wahoo!!

:)

Oriole Way
10-24-2009, 11:48 PM
Sorry Booz, but you just need 6 to qualify for bowl eligibilty. And only one can be fron the second division (which is what we have). We're already 4 - 3... So just gotta get two more... and I think 3 of them are very winable. Mia and GT may be tough though. So, need 2 of the other three probably - UVA, UNC-ch and Wake. I think we will be favored in one or two of the remaining games...so certainly do-able!!

That said, w/o an established track record of fans traveling to bowls, I'd sure feel better about our chances of getting selected if we had seven wins. But then again, the ACC last year sent 9 teams bowling -- everyone at .500 or better. Heck, I'd even take a trip to Boise or Memphis if the program could take that next big step!!

Wahoo!!

:)

Boozer is correct. We need 3 more wins, because the win against NCCU does NOT count for bowl-eligibility.

duke09hms
10-24-2009, 11:55 PM
yeah, the Richmond game is definitely one we'd like to have back . . . we'd be sitting at 5-2, with our only losses to ranked opponents.

It is what it is, and duke's going to have to fight for everything including a bowl game. But there's nothing wrong with that at all

Great job today guys! Wish I were there to see it!

Kewlswim
10-25-2009, 12:07 AM
Hi,

The Cavaliers look beatable. Duke could win THREE ACC games in a row with that one. I hope they play hard (as well as smart) and let the chips fall where they may. I have a good feeling. The kook-aid is starting to taste better again, good thing I got rid of that rancid batch after the Richmond game.

GO DUKE!

killerleft
10-25-2009, 12:33 AM
AGREE!

This week has been a great one for duke. Kyrie's commitment, Duke Football grinding out a mentally tough win over MD, unc's huge choke to fsu, and by all accounts, Harrison Barnes seems to be enjoying himself.

With the type of students duke attracts, most of them can't give up an entire free day for athletics, and because it's mostly either one or the other (bball or football), most students will value the basketball game more. Ensuring the stadium is packed for Harrison Barnes visit is pretty important too. Parent's weekend just introduces another time commitment. Add in the rainy weather, and it's quite understandable. Student-bashing is silly, and when all is said and done, quite pointless because critical posts on DBR aren't going to convince students to attend games.

So instead, let's focus on the positives, which were very many this week.

Maybe Harrison Barnes was wondering why Duke students were standing in line for a "practice" game instead of supporting their football team.

Kewlswim
10-25-2009, 12:40 AM
Maybe Harrison Barnes was wondering why Duke students were standing in line for a "practice" game instead of supporting their football team.

Hi,

I think H is probably thinking about other things, such as what it would be like to play basketball at Duke, not who is going to a football game in a deluge!

GO DUKE!

throatybeard
10-25-2009, 02:27 AM
This thread aptly demonstrates why, if I didn't have two degrees from Duke, I would root against us. The idea that only one sex of one dual-sex sport is all that matters is pretty sick.

I suspect Harrison Barnes has a lot more perspective than the MBB-only fetishists on this board.

FireOgilvie
10-25-2009, 02:42 AM
This thread aptly demonstrates why, if I didn't have two degrees from Duke, I would root against us. The idea that only one sex of one dual-sex sport is all that matters is pretty sick.

I suspect Harrison Barnes has a lot more perspective than the MBB-only fetishists on this board.

The Duke Basketball Report message board filled with Duke basketball fans? Unbelievable.

I don't even see any outrageous anti-football sentiment on here. I'm pretty sure every one of the people on this board wishes that more students would have attended the game. You can't force people to go, especially in the pouring rain against the worst team in the ACC. If it took 35,000 people to fill Cameron, it probably wouldn't have been filled today either.

killerleft
10-25-2009, 09:24 AM
It was nice to see Mike McGee honored at the football game. For you younger folks, he was an All-America lineman at Duke. He was awarded the Outland Trophy, the lineman equivalent of the Heismann, in 1959.

If the Duke administration hadn't been busy de-emhasizing football when he was head coach, Duke's fortunes may have been very different. Mike took lots of criticism for the continued fall of Duke football. In hindsight, he really had no chance to reverse our football downfall.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-25-2009, 10:52 AM
It was nice to see Mike McGee honored at the football game. For you younger folks, he was an All-America lineman at Duke. He was awarded the Outland Trophy, the lineman equivalent of the Heismann, in 1959.

If the Duke administration hadn't been busy de-emhasizing football when he was head coach, Duke's fortunes may have been very different. Mike took lots of criticism for the continued fall of Duke football. In hindsight, he really had no chance to reverse our football downfall.

The only downside to Mike being recognized on the field yesterday is that the rain began to pour really hard once he got in place. Mike McGee has contributed so much to Duke's great football past. In some games his senior year it almost felt as if he put the team on his back to do whatever it took to win. The 1959 season was filled some high peaks and some very low valleys. It was the last year of an offensive style based primarily on running the ball when the passing game was emerging as an important offensive model. The next season Duke began to utilize passing much more and went on to the Cotton Bowl.

formerdukeathlete
10-25-2009, 11:11 AM
It was nice to see Mike McGee honored at the football game. For you younger folks, he was an All-America lineman at Duke. He was awarded the Outland Trophy, the lineman equivalent of the Heismann, in 1959.

If the Duke administration hadn't been busy de-emhasizing football when he was head coach, Duke's fortunes may have been very different. Mike took lots of criticism for the continued fall of Duke football. In hindsight, he really had no chance to reverse our football downfall.

De-emphasis had already taken place, under Doug Knight, as Bill Brill has pointed out.

McGee worked pre-Iron Duke fundraising, when the Athletic Department had tp pay to operate Card Gym, Cameron, the other athletic facilities, pay for scholarships, and operate break-even. Basketball struggled, relatively, and basketball revenue was down. Terry Sanford supported Athletics, but this had its limits, and we, at Duke at the time, were not used to the idea that maybe the University budget ought to pay to operate gyms and maybe the University ought to credit back scholarships as saving financial aid awards.

So, with the need for revenue to justify existence in this generally less than fully supported environment, we had to schedule killer away games for the revenue.

Title IX came along which put further pressure on the University's appreciation of, support for Football.

De-emphasis can be blamed on Doug Knight, faculty hired by his administration, Trustee detachment at the time.

Mike McGee did some very heavy lifting with the help of Carl James and some support by Uncle Terry to keep Football going - at all.

A very capable guy who went on to be AD at Southern Cal and South Carolina.

doctorhook
10-25-2009, 11:24 AM
I agree with all the M. McGee praise, and I can find only one fault with his head coach tenure. Some time after Vince Fusco had his leg broken on a kick, Mike said he was sorry about what happened to Vince, but kickers are like trolley cars, one comes by every few minutes. That remark came back to bite us, and we lost more than one game due to the lack of a kicker.

CEF1959
10-25-2009, 11:32 AM
yeah, the Richmond game is definitely one we'd like to have back . . . we'd be sitting at 5-2, with our only losses to ranked opponents.


Agreed that it would be nice to have that game back, but Richmond is now 7-0. Not exactly a slouch team. So our only losses are to teams that are either ranked or undefeated.

I don't see a 7 win season for us this year, though it could happen. But I'm liking the way things are trending.

DukeCO2009
10-25-2009, 12:03 PM
This just cracks me up to no end.

Everyone, take a chill pill. Please. We WON the game. We. Won. The. Game. Let's celebrate!

Can we please stop this basketball vs. football pi$$ing contest? Students will go see what they believe will have the highest entertainment value. Go ahead, sue them for trying to get front row seats and waiting in line to watch a national powerhouse. Verbally berate them for wanting to soak up the atmosphere of historic Cameron Indoor. Yell at them and tell them they should be elsewhere but a few weeks before you start your annual whining about basketball attendance. :rolleyes:

Also, can we quit making asinine comments like "wear raingear!" and "it didn't start raining until the second quarter"? Come on--EVERYONE bolted for the gates when the skies opened up, alums and undoubtedly a few sanctimonious DBR posters included. Can you really blame them? Revel in the fact that YOU were there to see the game; don't make your enjoyment of it dependent upon who was there enjoying it with you.

Again, WE WON! The players came by and gave high fives to the couple hundred students that stuck it out until the end. They certainly appreciated us. Why can't everyone else?

RelativeWays
10-25-2009, 12:15 PM
I'll admit that I did leave early, but going in, I was having to balance the game with another engagement I had to attend later that afternoon in addition to the weather, but I was not going to miss coming to the game. BTW whoever recommended the pork tenderloin sandwich at WW, you get a gold star from my father and me.

On to the game. Defense was great, the philosophy seemed to be bend but don't break, UMD was able to move the ball, but they either wouldn't score or only get a FG. We outscore them and they just can't keep up.
This is a great plan when the offense doesn't commit turnovers. We have that fumble on the UMD 35 in the 2nd quarter that should have resulted in a field goal at least. A miscommunication between Thad and Connor that resulted in an INT that UMD got a field goal from. And you have the fumble at the one by Thad that should have been a TD and probably the game decider. The defense really pinned its ears back when it counted and they should get the game ball. Still these are easy fixable problems, Duke hasn't fumbled a lot or thrown many ints, the weather played a role. Its a huge character builder to play ugly and still win. Before anyone scoffs, remember that Clemson, who just shocked Miami yesterday, played ugly against Maryland and lost. Its a huge momentum builder. I don't know what to expect with UVA. GT handled them pretty easily and the hoos will want revenge from last year. If Duke wants a shot at a bowl, they realy need to beat UVA next week.

sagegrouse
10-25-2009, 12:27 PM
If Duke wants a shot at a bowl, they really need to beat UVA next week.

In the entire history of DBR, this is the first time this quote has appeared and made sense.

sagegrouse

devildeac
10-25-2009, 01:40 PM
I'll admit that I did leave early, but going in, I was having to balance the game with another engagement I had to attend later that afternoon in addition to the weather, but I was not going to miss coming to the game. BTW whoever recommended the pork tenderloin sandwich at WW, you get a gold star from my father and me.

On to the game. Defense was great, the philosophy seemed to be bend but don't break, UMD was able to move the ball, but they either wouldn't score or only get a FG. We outscore them and they just can't keep up.
This is a great plan when the offense doesn't commit turnovers. We have that fumble on the UMD 35 in the 2nd quarter that should have resulted in a field goal at least. A miscommunication between Thad and Connor that resulted in an INT that UMD got a field goal from. And you have the fumble at the one by Thad that should have been a TD and probably the game decider. The defense really pinned its ears back when it counted and they should get the game ball. Still these are easy fixable problems, Duke hasn't fumbled a lot or thrown many ints, the weather played a role. Its a huge character builder to play ugly and still win. Before anyone scoffs, remember that Clemson, who just shocked Miami yesterday, played ugly against Maryland and lost. Its a huge momentum builder. I don't know what to expect with UVA. GT handled them pretty easily and the hoos will want revenge from last year. If Duke wants a shot at a bowl, they realy need to beat UVA next week.

Agreed about the D. They gave up only 249 yards, with just 67 rushing. The "busted" coverage play (on 3rd and 18:(), accounted for 67 of those passing yards. Vinnie Ray admitted it was his fault as he was out of position and vowed to "make up for it" later. His INT late in the 4th was huge. He certainly atoned for his error. In the comments yesterday, Cut was happy with the "ugly" win, but there are several areas with which he was far from pleased and has promised to rectify those with some, uh, "tough" practices this week.

CameronBornAndBred
10-25-2009, 03:06 PM
Despite the weather, yesterday was a great day. It was an important game, we showed we could win when not much was going right for us on the field. Had a blast cooking with the brunchgate regulars again, as well as meeting new folks such as Peloton. Good to see DPSlaw again, and it was great to meet Bob Green and his father.
UVA will be tough, even though they haven't looked great. Today was a game we can draw on for experience when we aren't playing our best.
We have a winning record in the second half of the season, and that includes our ACC schedule. How huge is that?! GO DUKE!

MulletMan
10-25-2009, 03:17 PM
My socks are still wet. Seriously.

Vinnie made one great play on that pick. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that he was supposed to blitz on that play, recognized the screen and dropped back into coverage. The throw hit him right in the stomach.

Yeah... it rained. Its football. Fans stay. And then they go to Cameron soaked. If you went to the start of the game, you probably should have stayed for the whole thing. However, if you didn't, you're the one who lost out. Not the team. You missed the most fun at a Duke game in a number of years. Sorry for those who couldn't ride out the rain.

One of the best moments of the day was when the official was reviewing the OB / TD call and the students, band, GAs to the endzone side and the team all had thier arms up in the air and were chanting "Touch-Down! Touch-Down!" while the official had the headset on.

CameronBornAndBred
10-25-2009, 03:23 PM
One of the best moments of the day was when the official was reviewing the OB / TD call and the students, band, GAs to the endzone side and the team all had thier arms up in the air and were chanting "Touch-Down! Touch-Down!" while the official had the headset on.
That was funny as hell. I still don't understand what they called. Makes no sense to review for one thing, then overturn that call yet not rule a TD.

DukeUsul
10-25-2009, 03:29 PM
That was funny as hell. I still don't understand what they called. Makes no sense to review for one thing, then overturn that call yet not rule a TD.

I was down in that corner, about 12 rows up. It looked clear to me that he didn't step out of bounds - especially if you look at the divots! The ruling overturned the call on the field that said he stepped out at the six. But the crew observed that he had his knee down on the 1 before the ball crossed the plane. I admit I wasn't able to observe that.

El_Diablo
10-25-2009, 03:29 PM
"THAT'S A TOUCHDOWN" clap clap clap-clap-clap :D

Newton_14
10-25-2009, 03:35 PM
I was down in that corner, about 12 rows up. It looked clear to me that he didn't step out of bounds - especially if you look at the divots! The ruling overturned the call on the field that said he stepped out at the six. But the crew observed that he had his knee down on the 1 before the ball crossed the plane. I admit I wasn't able to observe that.

I watched the replay on the news last night and his knee never touched the ground until he landed in the end zone. I am not sure what that ref was looking at when he backed up to the 6 pointing OB. Terrible. Then they blow the review as well. Unreal..

6th Man
10-25-2009, 03:57 PM
I personally thought the officiating was awful. I am so sick and tired of Duke getting bogus excessive celebration penalties. I never see it called but at Duke. Seems like they get those a lot in Wally Wade. Unless you are in the opposing team's face, let them celebrate a little. He did make one heckuva catch.

Really proud of those guys. Very tempted to make the journey to Charlottesville next Sat. I wish I had bought them through Duke a month or so ago. I don't see them listed anymore. I would much rather be amongst friends than buying them at the game and probably being amongst foes.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-25-2009, 04:01 PM
Duke is now ranked #3 in the Coastal Division behind Georgia Tech and Virginia Tech. How 'bout those Devils?????

Maybe we'll have another Outland Trophy winner this year.......

killerleft
10-25-2009, 04:07 PM
This just cracks me up to no end.

Everyone, take a chill pill. Please. We WON the game. We. Won. The. Game. Let's celebrate!

Can we please stop this basketball vs. football pi$$ing contest? Students will go see what they believe will have the highest entertainment value. Go ahead, sue them for trying to get front row seats and waiting in line to watch a national powerhouse. Verbally berate them for wanting to soak up the atmosphere of historic Cameron Indoor. Yell at them and tell them they should be elsewhere but a few weeks before you start your annual whining about basketball attendance. :rolleyes:

Also, can we quit making asinine comments like "wear raingear!" and "it didn't start raining until the second quarter"? Come on--EVERYONE bolted for the gates when the skies opened up, alums and undoubtedly a few sanctimonious DBR posters included. Can you really blame them? Revel in the fact that YOU were there to see the game; don't make your enjoyment of it dependent upon who was there enjoying it with you.

Again, WE WON! The players came by and gave high fives to the couple hundred students that stuck it out until the end. They certainly appreciated us. Why can't everyone else?

Yeah, that raingear talk is really silly.

I moved on when I saw that the students weren't there in good numbers. Hooted, whistled, had fun, and didn't have to stare at K Tower instead of watching the home team smear the Turtle.

The students are NEEDED by our team NOW. They just aren't going to get it, I guess.

The comment about the team appreciating the students is right on, though. Heck, we all oughta kiss their behinds. With all the reasons for not attending, maybe y'all should just send a designated student to the games with a signed statement telling them how much YOU appreciate THEM. Whoops... I guess they have already received that message loud and clear.

Let me make this crystal clear. The students have non-supported Football for years. Perhaps Duke students just can't be bothered to support anything not ranked in the top ten year-in and year-out. So be it. Just don't come up with any more "reasons" for such behavior other than apathy.

Again, the students who DO show up ARE greatly appreciated. The band does a great job. The cheerleaders are great, too.

loran16
10-25-2009, 04:11 PM
Yeah, that raingear talk is really silly.

I moved on when I saw that the students weren't there in good numbers. Hooted, whistled, had fun, and didn't have to stare at K Tower instead of watching the home team smear the Turtle.

The students are NEEDED by our team NOW. They just aren't going to get it, I guess.

The comment about the team appreciating the students is right on, though. Heck, we all oughta kiss their behinds. With all the reasons for not attending, maybe y'all should just send a designated student to the games with a signed statement telling them how much YOU appreciate THEM. Whoops... I guess they have already received that message loud and clear.

Let me make this crystal clear. The students have non-supported Football for years. Perhaps Duke students just can't be bothered to support anything not ranked in the top ten year-in and year-out. So be it. Just don't come up with any more "reasons" for such behavior other than apathy.

Again, the students who DO show up ARE greatly appreciated. The band does a great job. The cheerleaders are great, too.

Uhhh would it be destructively negative for me to disagree about the cheerleaders? The effort is nice, but H-O-L-D, Hold Em, Duke Hold Em is PAIIIIIIIIIIINFUL

Wander
10-25-2009, 04:12 PM
Eh, I think if anything, Duke got the good end of poor officiating. Varner pretty clearly should have been called for offensive pass interference on his touchdown. That's fine with me, it kinda makes up for Leon Wright's blown interception call against Virginia Tech in my mind, but still... probably shouldn't complain about the refs in this game.

CMARTZ
10-25-2009, 04:14 PM
Yeah, that raingear talk is really silly.

I moved on when I saw that the students weren't there in good numbers. Hooted, whistled, had fun, and didn't have to stare at K Tower instead of watching the home team smear the Turtle.

The students are NEEDED by our team NOW. They just aren't going to get it, I guess.

The comment about the team appreciating the students is right on, though. Heck, we all oughta kiss their behinds. With all the reasons for not attending, maybe y'all should just send a designated student to the games with a signed statement telling them how much YOU appreciate THEM. Whoops... I guess they have already received that message loud and clear.

Let me make this crystal clear. The students have non-supported Football for years. Perhaps Duke students just can't be bothered to support anything not ranked in the top ten year-in and year-out. So be it. Just don't come up with any more "reasons" for such behavior other than apathy.

Again, the students who DO show up ARE greatly appreciated. The band does a great job. The cheerleaders are great, too.

While I agree there is an astonishingly low level of support for Duke football among students, I'm not sure you quite comprehend how difficult some of these students' coursework actually is. This week marks the beginning of the second round of tests (especially in the sciences), and plenty of students who could be attending football games are working their tails off in the library just so they can make the mean score in their classes.

I, for example, would have loved to go to the game yesterday, but I have to contend with 3 tests on just Monday and Tuesday. The rain didn't help the cause either. I'm sure many other students in my organic lecture are in a similar situation.

JaMarcus Russell
10-25-2009, 04:21 PM
The fact that it's Parents' Weekend is a pretty big deal. I watched Duke-NC State with my parents the one time my parents came for that weekend, but it was sunny and in the 70s that day. I also didn't sit in the students section for that game, and I can guarantee you that if it was raining, I wouldn't have been at the game. As much as my dad and I would have wanted to go, there would have been a certain family member who could overrule us on that point :D.

Jim3k
10-25-2009, 04:26 PM
De-emphasis had already taken place, under Doug Knight, as Bill Brill has pointed out.

McGee worked pre-Iron Duke fundraising, when the Athletic Department had tp pay to operate Card Gym, Cameron, the other athletic facilities, pay for scholarships, and operate break-even. Basketball struggled, relatively, and basketball revenue was down. Terry Sanford supported Athletics, but this had its limits, and we, at Duke at the time, were not used to the idea that maybe the University budget ought to pay to operate gyms and maybe the University ought to credit back scholarships as saving financial aid awards.

So, with the need for revenue to justify existence in this generally less than fully supported environment, we had to schedule killer away games for the revenue.

Title IX came along which put further pressure on the University's appreciation of, support for Football.

De-emphasis can be blamed on Doug Knight, faculty hired by his administration, Trustee detachment at the time.

Mike McGee did some very heavy lifting with the help of Carl James and some support by Uncle Terry to keep Football going - at all.

A very capable guy who went on to be AD at Southern Cal and South Carolina.

I dunno what Brill said, but Mike McGee graduated in 1959. At that time Dr. Edens was president and football was very good -- top ten good. The following year Duke went to the Cotton Bowl and Dr. Hart had become president. We remained in the top 10 through 1963.

Knight was not selected until 1963. Both Edens and Hart supported football pretty well.

killerleft
10-25-2009, 04:34 PM
While I agree there is an astonishingly low level of support for Duke football among students, I'm not sure you quite comprehend how difficult some of these students' coursework actually is. This week marks the beginning of the second round of tests (especially in the sciences), and plenty of students who could be attending football games are working their tails off in the library just so they can make the mean score in their classes.

I, for example, would have loved to go to the game yesterday, but I have to contend with 3 tests on just Monday and Tuesday. The rain didn't help the cause either. I'm sure many other students in my organic lecture are in a similar situation.

I DO understand that. Of course, not everyone can be at every event at Duke.

When thousands of students can make an exhibition basketball game against a teensy ball team from a teensy school instead of (or in addition to) supporting the revival of a long-dormant football team, that is a clear flag-waving statement saying "apathy". It is what it is. Most of the students are OK with this. But let's make that the reason. Don't come up with excuses for the whole student body. Coach K doesn't make excuses. Coach Cut doesn't make excuses. Let's just be honest about it.

6th Man
10-25-2009, 04:34 PM
Eh, I think if anything, Duke got the good end of poor officiating. Varner pretty clearly should have been called for offensive pass interference on his touchdown. That's fine with me, it kinda makes up for Leon Wright's blown interception call against Virginia Tech in my mind, but still... probably shouldn't complain about the refs in this game.

Then we will agree to disagree. 3 for 25 for Maryland to 12 for 101 for Duke. A blown OB call on Conner Vernon that should have been a TD...a bogus excessive celebration penalty.

El_Diablo
10-25-2009, 05:08 PM
How many Duke wrestling matches have you been to in the past year? Volleyball? Fencing? Cross-country? LAX? Soccer? Are these Blue Devils less worthy of support than the football team? Are you apathetic about them, even though they've arguably done more to earn your following over the years than the football program has?

If Wallace Wade had been full with the exception of the student section, then you could have reason to complain. But then, the Athletic Department could just shrink the student section if there's demand for more non-student seating. Oh wait...the demand isn't there. Why is that? Why are all the rich alumni not beating down the door to get season tickets? Why are you not complaining about THEIR lack of alumni support (in the form of physical presence)? And for those who do have tickets, why are you not taking them to task for not showing up in force for the Maryland game? In case you missed it, the entire stadium was pretty empty.

These are rhetorical questions...you don't need to answer them. But do us all a favor and stop complaining about student attendance at football games. The weather was bad. Parents were in town. The economy has put a large amount of pressure on current students, and the fact that the football program suddenly aspires to be more than an embarrassment doesn't really inspire a lot of 18- to 22-year-olds (many of whom came to Duke not caring one lick about college football) to want to stand out in the rain while their parents hang out in a hotel room and they have tests looming.

Yes, a lot of students ARE relatively apathetic about Duke football.

It's easy to point the finger at the student body for being apathetic. But Duke University has gone out of its way to cultivate this apathy for years now. It's hard to just flick a switch and erase the inertia that has built up. Especially if the exhortations are done on an anonymous board that is only followed by the fans who (a) care enough about Duke to have been at the game in the first place or (b) had some sort of semi-legit reason to not be there. I mean, if you believe students are apathetic--do you really think they're on DBR reading your post-game thoughts on their attendance?

Jim3k
10-25-2009, 05:20 PM
To add -- I think it's fair to say that when Terry Sanford became president in 1969 he tried to bring it back. After all, he did hire Mike McGee as the head coach. Unfortunately, Mike was hamstrung by some policy decisions that he couldn't change.

Living on the West Coast, I saw two of Mike's teams play -- once in Seattle in 1972 and once in LA in 1975. The team played very well in a loss to UDub (the following year nicking the Huskies in Durham) and got blown out by an unknown Ricky Bell at Southern Cal in 1975. That was a strange year, ending in two ties - one against State and the other against Orange County Community College. Had we won those two, Mike would have had a 6-5 season instead of 4-5-2. His teams always hit hard, but had little depth; plus players were getting much bigger, but his pool of recruits was restricted and he couldn't get what he needed. He was a Murray-bred coach and believed in field position football. In those days people wanted more. He did try to give it to them, but it never happened.

McGee coached for seven years with a 37-47-4 record. I've always wondered whether firing him was a good idea. But Sanford did stick with him for a long time. Unfortunately, what came afterward was worse. Red Wilson: 16-26-1; Steve Sloan: 10-23; then the terrific, though few, Spurrier years (1987-1989)(President Brodie) followed by Barry Wilson (13-30-1); Goldsmith/Franks/Roof.

Goldsmith was able to take advantage of Barry Wilson's recruiting and gave us one good year. But aside from Spurrier, no one was as good as McGee -- not that his record was very good either. Even so, I contend that Mike was done in more by University philosophy than his coaching/recruiting.

DownEastDevil
10-25-2009, 05:38 PM
I was there with my wife and 2 grand kids (7 & 10) and amazingly enough neither one ever ask to leave. We did have our raingear but the conditions were terrible. It was a beautiful site to see everyone waving the white Duke towels. I told my wife that would be something sweet if the stadium was full and those towels were waving. We stayed for the basketball game, spent the night in Raleigh and I took them to the State Fair today. I just got home and I am beat, but it was woth it with the wins and the kids thanking me for a great weekend.

Jim3k
10-25-2009, 05:52 PM
To add -- I think it's fair to say that when Terry Sanford became president in 1969 he tried to bring it back. After all, he did hire Mike McGee as the head coach. Unfortunately, Mike was hamstrung by some policy decisions that he couldn't change.

Living on the West Coast, I saw two of Mike's teams play -- once in Seattle in 1972 and once in LA in 1975. The team played very well in a loss to UDub (the following year nicking the Huskies in Durham) and got blown out by an unknown Ricky Bell at Southern Cal in 1975. That was a strange year, ending in two ties - one against State and the other against Orange County Community College. Had we won those two, Mike would have had a 6-5 season instead of 4-5-2. His teams always hit hard, but had little depth; plus players were getting much bigger, but his pool of recruits was restricted and he couldn't get what he needed. He was a Murray-bred coach and believed in field position football. In those days people wanted more. He did try to give it to them, but it never happened.

McGee coached for seven years with a 37-47-4 record. I've always wondered whether firing him was a good idea. But Sanford did stick with him for a long time. Unfortunately, what came afterward was worse. Red Wilson: 16-26-1; Steve Sloan: 10-23; then the terrific, though few, Spurrier years (1987-1989)(President Brodie) followed by Barry Wilson (13-30-1); Goldsmith/Franks/Roof.

Goldsmith was able to take advantage of Barry Wilson's recruiting and gave us one good year. But aside from Spurrier, no one was as good as McGee -- not that his record was very good either. Even so, I contend that Mike was done in more by University philosophy than his coaching/recruiting.

Correction: I actually saw three of his teams. The best was the one I missed, the 1972 Stanford victory with Ernie Jackson taking an INT to the house for the win.

devildeac
10-25-2009, 05:53 PM
Then we will agree to disagree. 3 for 25 for Maryland to 12 for 101 for Duke. A blown OB call on Conner Vernon that should have been a TD...a bogus excessive celebration penalty.

I'm in this camp here. I was sitting on that side/end of the field and, at first, the ref ran into the end zone with CV and THEN he ran back to the 6-7 yard line and pointed at the ground. Bogus.

No one in my group had a clue about the "excessive celebration" after an amazing one-handed grab for the TD on a pass I thought was uncatchable.

There were several other calls made too, from 10-20 yards away from the plays, that came after the OB call, that folks in my group also found rather suspect. I'm glad we got the intentional grounding call, though it appeared to take a significant amount of jawing from our sidelines and a very late flag to actually make that call.

formerdukeathlete
10-25-2009, 06:05 PM
I dunno what Brill said, but Mike McGee graduated in 1959. At that time Dr. Edens was president and football was very good -- top ten good. The following year Duke went to the Cotton Bowl and Dr. Hart had become president. We remained in the top 10 through 1963.

Knight was not selected until 1963. Both Edens and Hart supported football pretty well.

There may be a way to search Bill Brill's posts.

Doug Knight sat in on the vote by the Duke faculty to de-emphasize Football. Under Knight the University, through its faculty and admins., sent signals to our very successful coaches at the time, Bill Murray and Vic Bubas which arguably lead to their retirements at Duke. Knight was a disaster for Duke athletics. Eddie Cameron lobbied Trustees and prevented quiting d-1 Football, but Knight hired an inept Cornell coach as a compromise, which was defacto de-emphasis while still offering athletic scholarships. With the early retirements of Murray and Bubas, Football and Basketball revenues declined with declining fortunes on the court and field.

Sanford might have saved Duke Football in hiring McGee, and Carl James in his scheduling obtained enough revenue to keep things afloat. Leadership might have been bolder, with bigger commitments to Athletics at the time. For example, we might have gone ahead and gotten rid fo the track to make the Football venue more attractive. I think Sanford was hampered to a degree by the faculty brought in by Knight. Knight's "DNA" in this fashion proved to be a lasting drag, impediment on the Program.

I recall Bill Foster commenting in a talk he gave to students about how he was hopeful at Duke (this was before the 78 run at the national title), but that he was weary of late night calls from faculty / admin.

One such call he quoted, "What in the h*ll are we spending so much money on Basketball for, if you cant even beat Carolina?"

Unbelievable lack of understanding, appreciation of the nature of Athletics and how it fits in with the undergrad experience at Duke. And, a tough climate for Bill Foster, at least that is my impression, and perhaps partly why Bill left as soon as he did.

From Wallace Wade through the 1960s until Doug Knight Athletics at Duke easily funded the student athletic facilities, intramural sports, coaching staffs, scholarships. The University might have been paying for a lot of these things, and that the Athletic department was charged or paid for all of these services limited recruiting budgets, facilities enhancements, coaches salaries.

Nan set us back years, in terms of attacking work hard, play hard (which culture did help recruiting). Before Nan, Brodie was the sweet spot with Spurrier and two consecutive b-ball national championships.

It looks like, as Bill Brill has mentioned, today we are better positioned, and better understand what it takes to support Athletics at Duke. Brodhead and White get it for the most part, which is a good thing.

CameronBornAndBred
10-25-2009, 06:11 PM
I'm in this camp here. I was sitting on that side/end of the field and, at first, the ref ran into the end zone with CV and THEN he ran back to the 6-7 yard line and pointed at the ground. Bogus.

No one in my group had a clue about the "excessive celebration" after an amazing one-handed grab for the TD on a pass I thought was uncatchable.

There were several other calls made too, from 10-20 yards away from the plays, that came after the OB call, that folks in my group also found rather suspect. I'm glad we got the intentional grounding call, though it appeared to take a significant amount of jawing from our sidelines and a very late flag to actually make that call.
I'm not sure if I'm more hoarse from yelling for team or from yelling at the refs.

Tappan Zee Devil
10-25-2009, 06:17 PM
I think Sanford was hampered to a degree by the faculty brought in by Knight. Knight's "DNA" in this fashion proved to be a lasting drag, impediment on the Program.


So - are you saying that faculty hirings should be based on the prospective professor's support of athletics rather than on academic credentials? :confused::(

DevilCastDownfromDurham
10-25-2009, 06:20 PM
How many Duke wrestling matches have you been to in the past year? Volleyball? Fencing? Cross-country? LAX? Soccer? Are these Blue Devils less worthy of support than the football team? Are you apathetic about them, even though they've arguably done more to earn your following over the years than the football program has?

I generally stay out of these debates because I don't think there's much benefit in finger-pointing back and forth, but this is a really great point that gets overlooked way too often. Duke fencers, golfers et al work just as hard and represent the university just as well on and off the field/court/etc.

A lot of schools, especially in the South, have a history of making football a priority and that's great. Football is a lot fun to watch and a high-profile team can do a lot for the school (good and maybe sometimes bad as well). But Duke hasn't emphasized football significantly more than it has other non-basketball sports for decades. As a result, in the lifetime of just about every undergrad Duke football has always been forgettable at best. Even those exceptional Spurrier teams happened before half of the undergrads were born.

For many students the football team is exactly like the fencing team, better to see win than lose, but not a major part of the identity of the university. I hope we can change that and I think Cut has us in the right direction. But until/unless Duke culture changes to make football more fun or more important than tennis or field hockey, it's quixotic to demand that student prioritize one long-ignored sport more highly than others just because a lot of other schools have done so. Supporting football doesn't make one a better fan any more than supporting track and field or rowing, and not coming out for one is, IMO, ethically and until recently practically indistinct from not coming out to support any of the others.

DueBlevil
10-25-2009, 06:53 PM
How many Duke wrestling matches have you been to in the past year? Volleyball? Fencing? Cross-country? LAX? Soccer? Are these Blue Devils less worthy of support than the football team? Are you apathetic about them, even though they've arguably done more to earn your following over the years than the football program has?

If Wallace Wade had been full with the exception of the student section, then you could have reason to complain. But then, the Athletic Department could just shrink the student section if there's demand for more non-student seating. Oh wait...the demand isn't there. Why is that? Why are all the rich alumni not beating down the door to get season tickets? Why are you not complaining about THEIR lack of alumni support (in the form of physical presence)? And for those who do have tickets, why are you not taking them to task for not showing up in force for the Maryland game? In case you missed it, the entire stadium was pretty empty.

These are rhetorical questions...you don't need to answer them. But do us all a favor and stop complaining about student attendance at football games. The weather was bad. Parents were in town. The economy has put a large amount of pressure on current students, and the fact that the football program suddenly aspires to be more than an embarrassment doesn't really inspire a lot of 18- to 22-year-olds (many of whom came to Duke not caring one lick about college football) to want to stand out in the rain while their parents hang out in a hotel room and they have tests looming.

Yes, a lot of students ARE relatively apathetic about Duke football.

It's easy to point the finger at the student body for being apathetic. But Duke University has gone out of its way to cultivate this apathy for years now. It's hard to just flick a switch and erase the inertia that has built up. Especially if the exhortations are done on an anonymous board that is only followed by the fans who (a) care enough about Duke to have been at the game in the first place or (b) had some sort of semi-legit reason to not be there. I mean, if you believe students are apathetic--do you really think they're on DBR reading your post-game thoughts on their attendance?

Agree 100%. And I will add my opinion that the football team and all other Duke athletic programs exist to, in various ways, benefit the university and members of the student body who wish to participate as athletes or to watch the events---the student body does NOT exist to produce an audience for the athletes. The opinion that many people posting here seem to hold that as a Duke student, you are in any way OBLIGATED to go to an athletic event is absolutely absurd. Athletics, collegiate and professional, is about entertainment; if the football game is entertaining to you, then go. It is the FOOTBALL TEAM'S JOB TO BE ENTERTAINING if they want a larger audience. If we were undefeated and competing for conference titles and no one showed up, I can see why you might cite a lack of school spirit, but I'm sorry to report that we're not. 4-8 last year was a great improvement, but to a Duke student who only has followed the team for a year or two, that's still a pretty bad season.

The administration killed Duke Football many years ago, now they're trying to bring it back because it was an absolute embarrassment to this institution, and that's fantastic, but understand that the football culture from the students' perspective will change slowly. Trust that it will change though, if the administration continues their support of the program. I graduated a couple years ago, and I went to a number of football games when a student, but at one point, I stopped because it was clear that Duke (administration) did not give a crap about its football team. Why should I, as a student, support something when the school had so obviously given up on it? If you've been supporting Duke Football for years, then yeah, it's easy for you to get psyched up for the relatively significant (though not mind-blowing) improvements that have occurred over the past two years, but as a student who has not known the program for as long, it's not that easy to suddenly jump into loving the football team. Duke Football (and the administration) will have to regain the students' trust that this is something worth putting effort into. There is optimism on this front, as many of the students I knew (including myself) are actually more "football people" than "basketball people" and really wished Duke had a respectable team, and so if the school continues to have football worth supporting, support WILL increase.

It seems some of you want Notre Dame- or Michigan-style student support from Duke students at the turn of a switch, and I just think it's really disingenuous to think that that can or should happen. I know that some of you probably would agree with the statement that even if Duke lost every single game for ten years, students should still show up and show support for the team because it's a Duke team and that's what loyal fans do. Well, guess what, I'm a loyal fan of Duke University, and I showed my support by doing well in my classes, showing myself and my classmates respect, and conducting my current job to the best of my abilities and representing Duke the way it would want to be represented. I went to certain sporting events because they were fun, not because I felt the teams "needed" my support so badly. If that makes me a bad fan, so be it.

Sorry for the rambling rant... I guess I feel a bit attacked by some of the posts on this thread...

wilko
10-25-2009, 07:33 PM
Sorry for the rambling rant... I guess I feel a bit attacked by some of the posts on this thread...

Its how you feel.
Its a chicken and egg scenario in terms of support.

Im a townie who just happens to be a Duke fan and still lives local.

I took the fam. to the game and we were flooded out at half time. I saw no need to continue soaking my 4 and 7 yos. The last thing they need is to get sick and miss school, which in turn makes me or my wife burn days to stay home with a sick kid (oh Joy).

Im not sorry we went. It was the 1st time for my boys, and Im not sorry we left early. We are ALL glad they won. In our case we wanted to see the team and show them some love and be there for the 2nd straight conf victory. It didnt go as planned but Im no less happy. The guys deserve support. Had the weather cooperated, I thought the turnout would have been great.

If the students dont wanna go fine. If the general public dont wanna go fine.. Why should they go to support a losing effort?... but some wins... NOW thats a different kettle of fish. I'll go see a game they have a chance in.. I can listen to them lose on the radio for free while Im working in the garage

Heres the rub... Duke needs more than the students to show and fill Wally Wade. They need 8k more guys just like me who wanna see a good game and not feel like its a waste. The attendance prob is nothing some wins wont fix.

IF the attendance is still lacking after the wins roll in.. shame on us.
Duke wont contine to back FB if it isnt supported at some point with ticket sales. The Coaches will move to greener pastures,recruits.. well you get the idea... At point WW needs to be full. Continuing to win will do the most good.... but then then its on us to show out.

When will that Point be? who knows... Can they continue to progress?... who knows.
I certainly hope they can. If they do, we'll make more games in the future.

simple as that.

DU82
10-25-2009, 10:41 PM
I dunno what Brill said, but Mike McGee graduated in 1959. At that time Dr. Edens was president and football was very good -- top ten good. The following year Duke went to the Cotton Bowl and Dr. Hart had become president. We remained in the top 10 through 1963.

Knight was not selected until 1963. Both Edens and Hart supported football pretty well.

The conversation was talking about McGee the coach, not the player. That's in the '70s (after the de-emphasis under Pres. Knight.) I wondered at the time why we went up to Michigan or Ohio State or Tennessee (at least we won a few of those) each year (meaning at least one "money" game a year.)

DU82
10-25-2009, 10:48 PM
There may be a way to search Bill Brill's posts.
Sanford might have saved Duke Football in hiring McGee, and Carl James in his scheduling obtained enough revenue to keep things afloat. Leadership might have been bolder, with bigger commitments to Athletics at the time. For example, we might have gone ahead and gotten rid fo the track to make the Football venue more attractive. I think Sanford was hampered to a degree by the faculty brought in by Knight. Knight's "DNA" in this fashion proved to be a lasting drag, impediment on the Program.


Please stop with the "get rid of the track" stuff. While it may be pertinent today, there is no way anybody would have suggested getting rid of it in the '60s or '70s. (And we've had enough in the past to start it up again.)

The only discussion then would have been fixing it to get rid of the bubbles on the synthetic track (they were pretty bad in the late '70s.) It took too long to get that done, but that matched a lot of what was going on with the overall physical infrastructure of the university at the time.

DU82
10-25-2009, 10:55 PM
Its how you feel.
Im a townie who just happens to be a Duke fan and still lives local.

I took the fam. to the game and we were flooded out at half time. I saw no need to continue soaking my 4 and 7 yos. The last thing they need is to get sick and miss school, which in turn makes me or my wife burn days to stay home with a sick kid (oh Joy).

Im not sorry we went. It was the 1st time for my boys, and Im not sorry we left early. We are ALL glad they won. In our case we wanted to see the team and show them some love and be there for the 2nd straight conf victory. It didnt go as planned but Im no less happy. The guys deserve support. Had the weather cooperated, I thought the turnout would have been great.



I personally don't have a problem with anybody (especially those with young kids or sick ones) either not coming because of the weather or leaving early because of it. It was not very comfortable out there, even with rain gear. It's the most rain I remember at WW in the past ten years, other than perhaps the last three minutes of the NCCU game. Glad you made it for as long as you did!

DCDevil1
10-25-2009, 11:00 PM
"But until/unless Duke culture changes to make football more fun or more important than tennis or field hockey, it's quixotic to demand that student prioritize one long-ignored sport more highly than others just because a lot of other schools have done so. Supporting football doesn't make one a better fan any more than supporting track and field or rowing, and not coming out for one is, IMO, ethically and until recently practically indistinct from not coming out to support any of the others."


I understand this viewpoint but I disagree. Fencing or wrestling is not on ESPNU. Fencing and Wrestling are not widely covered by the national media. Fencing and Wrestling do not generate massive revenues for the ACC and Duke. Other sports do not have Duke's tradition of the Iron Dukes and national prominence from past years. Other sports do not have homecoming, alumni parties, and chance for tailgating before watching the game. Oh wait, Duke students do enjoy tailgate, they just forgot what tailgate means or why it started in the first place - as a party and a chance to socialize before the big game. Football is the most popular sport in America (maybe basketball but it is not fencing). Most alumni do not travel hundreds of miles to watch fencing and reconnect with the University. Duke does not use parking passes or season ticket packages for fencing events to raise money for all the other non-revenue sports. Does the fencing team hold Cokes with Cut?

Duke hired a great coach. Cutcliffe has a great staff, recruiting has improved, team performance is infinitely better, Duke just crushed NC State, and there were about 30 students in the student section as the game started. That is beyond pathetic. Football is a chance for fraternities to organize parties, have tailgates, sit with friends, take a date, and cheer for your team, which is infinitely improved and on ESPN.

Duke students camp out for weeks for one game but cant spend 3 hours supporting the improving football team? No students can walk outside their section and cheer for the guys on the Devil Walk? This apathy is understood based on the futility in the past, but this is the present. We are 4 and 3, and have beaten 2 ACC teams in a row.

Somebody in the undergrad community needs to realize that the lack of student support is damaging to the team, to the enthusiasm of the alumni, the fundraising for the university, the chance for building/enhancing decades of tradition, and to support Coach Cut who is changing everything and bringing positive stories about Duke and Duke football.

College football can be a great part of the college experience. Duke Administration is trying to repair the problems from the past, and Coach Cutcliffe is bringing an exciting and winning product for the fans. It is time for the students to support the rebuilding effort.

-bdbd
10-25-2009, 11:03 PM
Boozer is correct. We need 3 more wins, because the win against NCCU does NOT count for bowl-eligibility.

Thanks Oriole -- I stand corrected. I hadn't heard that the NCCU game didn't count. It makes scheduling them this year all that more puzzling... Even Louisville woulda given us a chance at a countable win. So, we need, apparently, to sweep UVA, UNC-ch, & Wake or spring a major upset of one of the top-20 opponents (GT, Mia) to make it. I see UVA and Wake (they were really poor in a loss vs injury-riddled Navy this weekend) as certainly winable... Well, one at a time guys!

BTW, just watched the replay of the football game - local cable here in DC broadcasts it for "MD-Extra." The receiver called out on the six clearly never stepped out at all, both announcers agreed, but I never saw the ref even looking down at feet anyway -- just a guess on his part. On the replay they showed twice his knee hitting at about the half-yard line. But the announcers did not agree with the call, as the ball was obviously through the plane at that point. The announcers were likewise incredulous at the supposed celebration call a couple plays later.

Great feeling that Duke can win one w/o playing its A-game now... but let's not try it again, ok guys??!

-bdbd :D

Jim3k
10-25-2009, 11:17 PM
The conversation was talking about McGee the coach, not the player. That's in the '70s (after the de-emphasis under Pres. Knight.) I wondered at the time why we went up to Michigan or Ohio State or Tennessee (at least we won a few of those) each year (meaning at least one "money" game a year.)

I went back and re-read (i.e., read more carefully) the earlier posts. You are correct and that's what was being said. For some reason I read it as sayin g that the de-emphasis occurred under Knight, but in the late 50's. :o We're all in agreement that it occurred under Knight, beginning with the hire of Tom Harp in 1966.

In fact, I think most of us agree that Mike was the victim of Knight policies and the de-emphasis that damaged the program for decades. Absent the offensive imagination of Spurrier, we might not even have had that success to look back to, Goldsmith's 1994 success notwithstanding.

killerleft
10-25-2009, 11:39 PM
"But until/unless Duke culture changes to make football more fun or more important than tennis or field hockey, it's quixotic to demand that student prioritize one long-ignored sport more highly than others just because a lot of other schools have done so. Supporting football doesn't make one a better fan any more than supporting track and field or rowing, and not coming out for one is, IMO, ethically and until recently practically indistinct from not coming out to support any of the others."


I understand this viewpoint but I disagree. Fencing or wrestling is not on ESPNU. Fencing and Wrestling are not widely covered by the national media. Fencing and Wrestling do not generate massive revenues for the ACC and Duke. Other sports do not have Duke's tradition of the Iron Dukes and national prominence from past years. Other sports do not have homecoming, alumni parties, and chance for tailgating before watching the game. Oh wait, Duke students do enjoy tailgate, they just forgot what tailgate means or why it started in the first place - as a party and a chance to socialize before the big game. Football is the most popular sport in America (maybe basketball but it is not fencing). Most alumni do not travel hundreds of miles to watch fencing and reconnect with the University. Duke does not use parking passes or season ticket packages for fencing events to raise money for all the other non-revenue sports. Does the fencing team hold Cokes with Cut?

Duke hired a great coach. Cutcliffe has a great staff, recruiting has improved, team performance is infinitely better, Duke just crushed NC State, and there were about 30 students in the student section as the game started. That is beyond pathetic. Football is a chance for fraternities to organize parties, have tailgates, sit with friends, take a date, and cheer for your team, which is infinitely improved and on ESPN.

Duke students camp out for weeks for one game but cant spend 3 hours supporting the improving football team? No students can walk outside their section and cheer for the guys on the Devil Walk? This apathy is understood based on the futility in the past, but this is the present. We are 4 and 3, and have beaten 2 ACC teams in a row.

Somebody in the undergrad community needs to realize that the lack of student support is damaging to the team, to the enthusiasm of the alumni, the fundraising for the university, the chance for building/enhancing decades of tradition, and to support Coach Cut who is changing everything and bringing positive stories about Duke and Duke football.

College football can be a great part of the college experience. Duke Administration is trying to repair the problems from the past, and Coach Cutcliffe is bringing an exciting and winning product for the fans. It is time for the students to support the rebuilding effort.

I love you, man!:) But the snowflakes apparently don't want to be part of building a football program. Perhaps after we have something polished and shiny to show them...

loran16
10-26-2009, 12:02 AM
Thanks Oriole -- I stand corrected. I hadn't heard that the NCCU game didn't count. It makes scheduling them this year all that more puzzling... Even Louisville woulda given us a chance at a countable win.

Meh, all 3 of the Triangle schools screwed up scheduling this year and need 7 wins. We did it because, as you point out, we broke the Louisville contract.

I'm not sure why we did it, but we obviously intended to replace them with a servicable opponent....but couldn't find one. Hopefully this isn't a problem next year.

DukeCO2009
10-26-2009, 12:31 AM
I love you, man!:) But the snowflakes apparently don't want to be part of building a football program. Perhaps after we have something polished and shiny to show them...

If you feel so strongly, I would highly suggest taking your concerns directly to the student body in the form of a Chronicle letter to the editor. I'm sure none of the undergrads would appreciate being calling "snowflakes", but you can word it however you like and it will be of no consequence to me. In any event, complaining on a message board isn't going to solve anything at all.

A few other things:

1) Whoever said there were only 30-40 students is grossly over exaggerating to make his/her point more legitimate. I had to sit in the 4th row because the first 3 were full when I arrived at kickoff, so that's more than 40 right there; there were also a good number of people that filled in behind me. I'll add that I actually was able to get front row seat in the second half because, shockingly, the alumni section thinned out so much. I know, I know--those guys are so unsupportive! :rolleyes:

2) Someone mentioned Tailgate, and I just wanted to mention again that it was just as well-attended on a relative basis as the game was. People didn't bail on Saturday at any higher of a rate than they have for previous games.

3) Of the 4+ years I've spent at Duke (first-year grad student at the moment), I can say without hesitation that this season has had, on average, by far the best student attendance. Baby steps, folks. Baby steps. As had been said ad nauseum, you can't just flip a switch. "If you build it, they will come." There's a HUGE football buzz on campus right now. Maybe not enough of a buzz to get a thousand kids out in the rain just yet, but a buzz nonetheless. We're on the cusp.

duke09hms
10-26-2009, 12:32 AM
"But until/unless Duke culture changes to make football more fun or more important than tennis or field hockey, it's quixotic to demand that student prioritize one long-ignored sport more highly than others just because a lot of other schools have done so. Supporting football doesn't make one a better fan any more than supporting track and field or rowing, and not coming out for one is, IMO, ethically and until recently practically indistinct from not coming out to support any of the others."


I understand this viewpoint but I disagree. Fencing or wrestling is not on ESPNU. Fencing and Wrestling are not widely covered by the national media. Fencing and Wrestling do not generate massive revenues for the ACC and Duke. Other sports do not have Duke's tradition of the Iron Dukes and national prominence from past years. Other sports do not have homecoming, alumni parties, and chance for tailgating before watching the game. Oh wait, Duke students do enjoy tailgate, they just forgot what tailgate means or why it started in the first place - as a party and a chance to socialize before the big game. Football is the most popular sport in America (maybe basketball but it is not fencing). Most alumni do not travel hundreds of miles to watch fencing and reconnect with the University. Duke does not use parking passes or season ticket packages for fencing events to raise money for all the other non-revenue sports. Does the fencing team hold Cokes with Cut?

Duke hired a great coach. Cutcliffe has a great staff, recruiting has improved, team performance is infinitely better, Duke just crushed NC State, and there were about 30 students in the student section as the game started. That is beyond pathetic. Football is a chance for fraternities to organize parties, have tailgates, sit with friends, take a date, and cheer for your team, which is infinitely improved and on ESPN.

Duke students camp out for weeks for one game but cant spend 3 hours supporting the improving football team? No students can walk outside their section and cheer for the guys on the Devil Walk? This apathy is understood based on the futility in the past, but this is the present. We are 4 and 3, and have beaten 2 ACC teams in a row.

Somebody in the undergrad community needs to realize that the lack of student support is damaging to the team, to the enthusiasm of the alumni, the fundraising for the university, the chance for building/enhancing decades of tradition, and to support Coach Cut who is changing everything and bringing positive stories about Duke and Duke football.

College football can be a great part of the college experience. Duke Administration is trying to repair the problems from the past, and Coach Cutcliffe is bringing an exciting and winning product for the fans. It is time for the students to support the rebuilding effort.

sure that's great and all. But again, preaching to and complaining about students is about as useful as wishing Calipari would run a clean program. There are an infinite valid reasons why a duke student would not attend a football game, especially given the pursuits/habits of an academically elite student body.

With human nature fickle as it is, you can't exactly blame them for not showing up, especially after they filled the student sections for the richmond game and watched us stink it up in very boring fashion.

Students have no obligation to go to a football game at a small, academically elite private institution which provides a multitude of other valid pursuits, oh and also happens to be top basketball school with a LONG history of disrespecting football. Yeah it'd be nice but no use whining about.

It'd also be nice to just enjoy this awesome win without finding something to complain about.

Duvall
10-26-2009, 01:02 AM
If there's anything lamer than alumni telling students how best to enjoy their collegiate experience, it's non-alumni telling students how best to enjoy their collegiate experience.

Welcome2DaSlopes
10-26-2009, 01:07 AM
It'd also be nice to just enjoy this awesome win without finding something to complain about.

Oh no but then what would we have to talk about:)

DCDevil1
10-26-2009, 01:34 AM
Students have no obligation to go to a football game at a small, academically elite private institution which provides a multitude of other valid pursuits, oh and also happens to be top basketball school with a LONG history of disrespecting football. Yeah it'd be nice but no use whining about.

It'd also be nice to just enjoy this awesome win without finding something to complain about.

I know Duke is elite and the students are busy. But College Football is popular, interesting, exciting, and we are 4 and 3. I know the students are elite, but maybe they could lower their elite standards to support Coach Cutcliffe who is an elite coach with a winning team that is in the media every day and is trying to provide an environment where duke students have positive experience similar to going to Cameron.

I have an MBA from Fuqua and most of my family went to Duke. I went to UVA undergrad. We used to have parties on the lawn before the games, we took dates, we hid bourbon in our pants and purses, and partied like crazy in in the stands. It was awesome. Duke students go to a "tailgate" and then ignore the main event. That is just odd.

Ignoring football made sense when we sucked. We don't. Duke is going bowling. That is fun. Going to a bowl is awesome. If Duke students don't show up, recruits won't pick Duke over the maniacal fan support from Clemson. If Duke students show up like for JMU and a few other games, Cutcliffe can bring in the elite recruits and produce bowls. If Duke students ignore the Devil Walk and don't go to the game we are wasting an opportunity to transform Football Saturdays into legendary days of kicking UNC's butt, having an awesome party and going to a bowl, which is incredibly fun. Duke students like to be ironic and "counter-mainstream"? Ok, go to the game, support your fellow students who'" are working their asses off and beating the state schools with lower admission standards and better recent football histories. Jump on the bandwagon of Cutcliffe and his super-human efforts to transform our terrible recent football image. This is a new day. Embrace it. Kick it, enjoy tailgate and go to the game and watch us win. How can you enjoy this awesome win when you didn't go to the game?

Changing a culture of undergrads is a huge puzzle. Having an ironic tailgate and spurning football is funny and cool until the football team is actually good, and you are missing it. Thad Lewis will be Duke's all-time leader in passing. Vince Oghabasse will be a 1st round draft pick. Conner Vernon is the top freshman receiver in the country and has a better vertical jump than most (maybe all) of the basketball team (37"). Duke has the 6th best passing offense in the country. And there were about 50 students at the football game and yet were lined up for Pfeiffer? Totally stupid.

DukeCO2009
10-26-2009, 01:38 AM
WE WON!

Let's enjoy it, shall we? Someone lock this thread. This back and forth is obnoxious and just getting people--myself included--riled up. As a said in my previous post, write to the Chronicle if you feel the students need a talking to.

GO DUKE!

duke09hms
10-26-2009, 03:24 AM
I have to agree with my classmate.

Let's focus on the positive - the sweet grind-it-out win this weekend that displayed our team's mental and physical toughness.

Any post describing duke students as "totally stupid" probably does not contribute to the discussion, which should be Duke's VICTORY.

Let's GO DUKE!

allenmurray
10-26-2009, 07:48 AM
sure that's great and all. But again, preaching to and complaining about students is about as useful as wishing Calipari would run a clean program. There are an infinite valid reasons why a duke student would not attend a football game, especially given the pursuits/habits of an academically elite student body.

With human nature fickle as it is, you can't exactly blame them for not showing up, especially after they filled the student sections for the richmond game and watched us stink it up in very boring fashion.

Students have no obligation to go to a football game at a small, academically elite private institution which provides a multitude of other valid pursuits, oh and also happens to be top basketball school with a LONG history of disrespecting football. Yeah it'd be nice but no use whining about.

It'd also be nice to just enjoy this awesome win without finding something to complain about.

Umm, given the student's attendance at tailgate (after which I can't imagine much academic work is actually happening) I find this to be a pretty weak argument. I've actually come to the point where I don't care if the students come or not. No one is obligated to watch football. But the reasons given in this thread for their lack of attendance are incredibly lame. (Reasons like 1) academic concerns - hard to believe when literallly dozens of students stumble in a drunken stupor from the tailgate going away from the stadium, 2) rain - um they tent for months in weather far more harsh then rain on a 74 degree day, 3) the economy; the history of disrepspecting football). Simple honesty, "we don't like football and/or we don't like losing so we won't attend until we are a national contender like in basketball" would at least they would get points for being real. But rain? Academics? (I have time to tailgate, but then I have to go study). The recession is keeping me away from the game? Please. They should just be honest.

El_Diablo
10-26-2009, 08:15 AM
Umm, given the student's attendance at tailgate (after which I can't imagine much academic work is actually happening) I find this to be a pretty weak argument. I've actually come to the point where I don't care if the students come or not. No one is obligated to watch football. But the reasons given in this thread for their lack of attendance are incredibly lame. (Reasons like 1) academic concerns - hard to believe when literallly dozens of students stumble in a drunken stupor from the tailgate going away from the stadium, 2) rain - um they tent for months in weather far more harsh then rain on a 74 degree day, 3) the economy; the history of disrepspecting football). Simple honesty, "we don't like football and/or we don't like losing so we won't attend until we are a national contender like in basketball" would at least they would get points for being real. But rain? Academics? (I have time to tailgate, but then I have to go study). The recession is keeping me away from the game? Please. They should just be honest.

Tailgate attendance was very low this week as well. So don't use that as a red herring.

And I'm not saying those other excuses are good excuses. But those little things are all it takes to change some people's minds, and they all came together this week (including the fact that parents were in town), so attendance was lower than in weeks past.

It was a good game, and I'm really glad I went. It's their loss for not coming...

killerleft
10-26-2009, 08:27 AM
I have to agree with my classmate.

Let's focus on the positive - the sweet grind-it-out win this weekend that displayed our team's mental and physical toughness.

Any post describing duke students as "totally stupid" probably does not contribute to the discussion, which should be Duke's VICTORY.

Let's GO DUKE!

I would never call Duke students stupid, but I do regret being primarily responsible for highjacking this thread. I should have started another thread. I apologize.

My "snowflake" reference was more in response to the assumption that young people are somehow really worried about getting wet on a mild day. I know from personal experience that this is not, in general, true. I'm just sad that present Duke students don't consider watching our improving football team to qualify as a reason to put up with the rain.

Go Duke! I guess it takes the perspective of a longtime Duke Football fan to really appreciate the transformation that is taking place on the football field.

allenmurray
10-26-2009, 08:29 AM
Tailgate attendance was very low this week as well. So don't use that as a red herring.

And I'm not saying those other excuses are good excuses. But those little things are all it takes to change some people's minds, and they all came together this week (including the fact that parents were in town), so attendance was lower than in weeks past.

It was a good game, and I'm really glad I went. It's their loss for not coming...

I certainly didn't intend it as a red herring - merely that it completely contradicts the excuse of "academics edging out attendance" at football games. As long as attendance at tailgate is higher than at football it is hard to make a legitimate argument that it is a focus on studying that precludes support for the football team.

The parent weekend thing hurt I am sure. Had it been a beautiful day combined with parent weekend attendance would have been great. The combination of bad weather and parent weekend was a disaster - I don't expect any set of parents (well, me, but I'm a Duke football fan) to sit through that rain for a game, and if I were still a student and my parents were down I wouldn'at have left them alone to go to the game.

formerdukeathlete
10-26-2009, 08:53 AM
So - are you saying that faculty hirings should be based on the prospective professor's support of athletics rather than on academic credentials? :confused::(

Individuals who are biased, prejudiced against any groups, elements of the undergraduate student body should not be hired at Duke.

Think Group of 88 - Nan; think vote to de-emphasize Football - Knight.

I think you would find that faculty hired under Brodhead, Brodie, Sanford were less hostile toward Athletics.

Certainly views toward Athletics do not trump academic credentials. However there are many applicants, many individuals interested in teaching at Duke and among those applicants professors who can relate to the undergrad Duke experience should be given preference.

Brodhead was a more highly regarded academic than Nan, imo, yet he is more interested in, appreciative of Athletics.

Highlander
10-26-2009, 09:33 AM
Attendence is down. This is why I was asking why we play a football game the same day as a basketball game. People will go to the basketball game that doesn't matter rather than go to a football game that does matter.

I thought attendence was pretty good, considering it was pouring down rain for most of the game. Duke fans outnumbered Maryland fans probably 10 to 1, and they didn't leave when the rain got going (although a lot left at halftime). I can't remember the last time that Duke so sufficiently outnumbered the opposition.

It's sad that of our 6 home games, 2 of them have been in the rain, 1 more is over Fall break, and a 4th is over Thanksgiving weekend. A combination of bad timing and bad luck.

devildeac
10-26-2009, 09:40 AM
The attendance was not dreadful as it was listed in the n&o at 24K+, about what I estimated when our Brunchgate group got to our seats about 15 minutes before tip, err, KICK-off. That number accounts for a lot of locals and/or "rich alumni" some of whom I know made the several hundred $$ journey from as far away as New York, Ver-Mont and Florida. I thought that was pretty darned respectable, considering the forecast of a high probability of rain AND T-storms. The crowd was much smaller for the 2nd half and understandably so with those conditions. At least, as allenmurray said, it was 74 degrees and not 44 degrees. And, if it was, I still would have attended but worn clothes appropriate for the weather instead of shorts and a Duke polo. We even "dragged" our unc grad older daughter to the game and had tickets for my sister-in-law (also a unc grad) and her son to attend but he had a last minute make-up soccer match arranged that AM for 3 that afternoon.

I was shocked at the low number of students who attended. My wife and I are Duke parents living locally who had a nice dinner with our daughter and her boyfriend at the new Cuban restaurant in the nicely renovated American Tobacco district of Friday evening and followed that up with divided attendance at a fun dance recital and a fine Duke Jazz ensemble concert on East Campus. We then enjoyed a dessert reception at the Div School from about 930-11`PM. We were pretty tired by our arrival home at midnight, especially with one of us recovering from a mild, but prolonged viral malady over the last couple weeks. We were up early on Saturday so we could spend another 12 hours on campus for a tailgate, FB game, exhibition BB game and then clean up after the tailgate. I'm not sure how "typical" we are as parents, but we have managed to support fervently both of our students' activities at Duke for over 6 years now and will continue to do so for the next 2 years until our daughter graduates. Oh, and BTW, I do take offense at and find "destructively negative" another poster's comment about the "lame" cheers/cheerleaders. Our daughter is one of those young ladies and has returned from a semi-serious foot injury and 2 surgeries in the last 6 months to perform this year. Having 1K or 2K students in the stands would certainly help with some of those "lame" FB cheers about which we commonly complain. Her boyfriend is also one of the FB managers and his parents, also "locals" made the effort to attend both games on Saturday.

Heck, we'd like to attend even more events on campus and be more involved, as I am sure many other alums are, but there is a job to work and a home/yard to maintain and we are fairly well satisfied with our level of participation over the years.

Thanks for reading. I truly hesitated stepping into the fray but just had to post a response after reading through all the discourse so far.

Highlander
10-26-2009, 09:46 AM
I completely agree that Duke football deserves more support and that student attendance has been mediocre. But there are two basic realities which make student support difficult: the size of Duke's student body compared to a vast majority of schools with Division 1 teams, and Duke football's brutal, prolonged run of complete ineptitude.


That's true, but decieving. No one expects Duke to have 4,000 students at a game. Hoever, I counted less than 200 students at the game, excluding the Band, and our tickets are in section 25, right next to the student section. Even for a small school, in the rain, on a day with a basketball exhibition, that number was just embarrassing.

It looked like Maryland had more people in their band than we had students in the student section.

allenmurray
10-26-2009, 10:08 AM
So - are you saying that faculty hirings should be based on the prospective professor's support of athletics rather than on academic credentials? :confused::(

He said nothing of the sort. He said that basketball coaches shouldn't have have to field late night phone calls from faculty complaining about "spending so much money on Basketball, if you can't even beat Carolina?" How you got from there to should faculty hirings should be based on the prospective professor's support of athletics? is a bit of a mystery.

allenmurray
10-26-2009, 10:09 AM
I thought that (the crowd) was pretty darned respectable, considering the forecast of a high probability of rain AND T-storms. The crowd was much smaller for the 2nd half and understandably so with those conditions. At least, as allenmurray said, it was 74 degrees and not 44 degrees.

We arrived late (beginning of the second quarter because wolkpackdevil had to work on Saturday morning) but he, myself, and 10yearoldbluedevil all had a great time. When the first bout of hard rain started we all looked at each other with a glance that said, "should we leave now?". We even utterred those words. Then we decided that one of three things could happen. We could leave and feel like schmucks, we could stay and be miserable, or we could stay and enjoy it. We chose option number three - closed the umbrella and embraced the rain like a bunch of goofy kids playing in the rain after mom has said no. We were thoroughly soaked and mrsallenmurray was none too happy when we arived home drenched to the bone, but we had fun (and she was actually a pretty good sport about it).



I was shocked at the low number of students who attended.

I'm no longer surprised by low student attendance. Sad, but not surprised. As for Saturday, any student who had parents down really should get a "free pass" from criticism for not attending. If the parents didn't want to sit out in the rain I can certainly see that as a more than valid reason for not being at the game. It was clear that the team did appreciate the fans who stayed, and really appreciated the students who were there. I admit I felt a little bad for the players when the ran over to the student seating section to exchange congratulations with the students who were there and the football players had to wait in line to give a high five to a student since there were more football players there than student fans.


Oh, and BTW, I do take offense at and find "destructively negative" another poster's comment about the "lame" cheers/cheerleaders. Our daughter is one of those young ladies and has returned from a semi-serious foot injury and 2 surgeries in the last 6 months to perform this year. Having 1K or 2K students in the stands would certainly help with some of those "lame" FB cheers about which we commonly complain. Her boyfriend is also one of the FB managers and his parents, also "locals" made the effort to attend both games on Saturday.

Word. Unlike the other 6000 or so students who were NOT there, the cheerleaders WERE there, and remained active and vocal despite the weather. I challenge anyone who complains about them to find 25 other students who show 10% as much work and spirit as they do. Be careful whoever made that statement, you might find yourself tracked down by a mean middle-aged posse of tailgaters if you mess with devildeac's daughter again - we are loyal to each other!

MulletMan
10-26-2009, 10:16 AM
Awesome to see this argument still going on Monday morning.

30-40 students? You counted 200? There were THOUSANDS of students at the Pfiefer game? Seriously?

Mmm K... let's be realistic for a second. There were probably BARELY 1,000 students at the basketball game (grads+Ugrads). A good portion of the people in Cameron on Saturday were PARENTS. They do not count as students. Sorry. So there were not THOUSANDS of students in Cameron. Cameron seats 9314... so even 900 is 10%. Its not really the students fault that WW seats 40,000 and even if they sent 1000 students to the WW they still wouldn't "pack" the stands.

I think it is fair to guesstimate ~500 students (ugrad+grad) at the football game. Yes, you may be looking at the "student section" and only counting the 5 rows of kids standing there, but there are many more students in that section sitting farther back, perhaps not wanting to stand, whatever.

Further, many grad students move over into GA for a non-obstructed view of the game. They're old... they have to sit. :D

All in all, it wasn't that bad considering the weather and Parents' weekend. I'm not trying to apologize for poor student attendance in the past, but I will give them a pass for this particular game, and it would be great to get away from the hyperbole in this thread. Just for a while.

And as I said before, for those who didn't attend, it was their loss.

So we go for our 3rd ACC win-in-a-row this week, huh?

sagegrouse
10-26-2009, 10:20 AM
Individuals who are biased, prejudiced against any groups, elements of the undergraduate student body should not be hired at Duke.

Think Group of 88 - Nan; think vote to de-emphasize Football - Knight.

I think you would find that faculty hired under Brodhead, Brodie, Sanford were less hostile toward Athletics.

Certainly views toward Athletics do not trump academic credentials. However there are many applicants, many individuals interested in teaching at Duke and among those applicants professors who can relate to the undergrad Duke experience should be given preference.

Brodhead was a more highly regarded academic than Nan, imo, yet he is more interested in, appreciative of Athletics.

FDA, I am looking for another opportunity to leap to your defense, but I am afraid it will have to wait to another time.

Lets try the reverse of your position (is this the "contrapositive?"): Suppose that the Duke President sent out word that only professors who were pro big-time athletics were to be considered by the academic departments. Do you agree that this would likely lead to the first lynching of a university president in U.S. history? I mean look what happened to Larry Summers at Harvard, when he had the audacity to suggest at an academic conference that male-female differences in interest or aptitude for science was a viable research topic. (Of course, the fact that Summers was hardly Mr. Warmth didn't help him ride out the storm.)

Faculty hiring is carried out by the academic departments based (a) on creative research accomplishments (for tenured positions) or potential (for assistant professors), (b) undergraduate and graduate teaching interests and abilities, and (c) ability to attract research or contract dollars. The last, which applies mostly to the sciences, engineering and academic medicine, goes along with (a) in that funded research leads to publications. Academic departments are pretty darn competitive across universities and are always on the lookout to upgrade the staff. Moreover, academic disciplines are highly detailed and even arcane, so an English prof in the President's office could hardly be expected to make sound judgments about economics or physics.

The University President or (more likely) the Provost can say "no" to an appointment, adjust department budgets (therefore, faculty positions) up and down, and can go to bat with special funding or endowment if a department needs to offer a chair to a major talent.

The real role in athletics of a university president is not in influencing the faculty attitudes toward the football team but in providing resources for athletics and setting policies under which the athletic department operates.

I agree with you that Brodhead seems to be quite willing to give some importance to athletics. Beyond Brodhead, I think there is also a growing realization among universities that athletics benefits the entire university mission and is not just a sop to the alumni and some of the students. Also, it is important that a University perform every mission well, and a laughably awful football program doesn't help at all. And dropping out of the ACC would be a financial disaster, due to the revenues generated by basketball.

The other aspect of athletics is that universities like Duke and Stanford seem to have much more esprit and are far better known than comparable schools like Washington University (StL) or Univ. of Chicago, which are rooted in Division III. (And as a separate point, financially strapped and enrolment-limited colleges are beginning to ADD football programs as a way to attract students and revenues. It turns out that a lot of HS football players would like to play in college, even if they can't qualify for Div I. And these players have the ability to influence where their friends enroll.)

The point you did not make, but which is surely part of your thinking and which the scribe at DIW incessantly emphasizes, is that the growth in non-traditional academic disciplines has made "radical" changes in campus politics. This has occurred over the last 20 years. I wouldn't be surprised if the Gang of 88 stuff has caused some at Duke to rethink some of these academic trends. But for obvious reasons, this is not likely to be a public debate.

sagegrouse

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-26-2009, 11:06 AM
Awesome to see this argument still going on Monday morning.

30-40 students? You counted 200? There were THOUSANDS of students at the Pfiefer game? Seriously?

Mmm K... let's be realistic for a second. There were probably BARELY 1,000 students at the basketball game (grads+Ugrads). A good portion of the people in Cameron on Saturday were PARENTS. They do not count as students. Sorry. So there were not THOUSANDS of students in Cameron. Cameron seats 9314... so even 900 is 10%. Its not really the students fault that WW seats 40,000 and even if they sent 1000 students to the WW they still wouldn't "pack" the stands.

I think it is fair to guesstimate ~500 students (ugrad+grad) at the football game. Yes, you may be looking at the "student section" and only counting the 5 rows of kids standing there, but there are many more students in that section sitting farther back, perhaps not wanting to stand, whatever.

Further, many grad students move over into GA for a non-obstructed view of the game. They're old... they have to sit. :D

All in all, it wasn't that bad considering the weather and Parents' weekend. I'm not trying to apologize for poor student attendance in the past, but I will give them a pass for this particular game, and it would be great to get away from the hyperbole in this thread. Just for a while.

And as I said before, for those who didn't attend, it was their loss.

So we go for our 3rd ACC win-in-a-row this week, huh?
How long has it been since a thread about football brought such passionate posts? While I wish it were possible to move on from the dissection of the crowd and peoples' attendance or lack of it, it's amazing that this discussion sounds a bit those threads debating the Crazies and student attendance at the basketball games.

This thread reflects the bumpy cultural transition the fans are making from where we were to learning to think like winners. Even the dismay over "no running game" sounds an awful lot like the dismay over having to rely on outside shooting.

I look forward to the day when our passionate outbursts are in unison directed more toward our competitors than toward each other.

In the meantime, I'm looking for some new rain gear that's tough enough for the challenges of real football. I don't want to get my blue dress soaked again!

CameronBornAndBred
10-26-2009, 11:09 AM
Word. Unlike the other 6000 or so students who were NOT there, the cheerleaders WERE there, and remained active and vocal despite the weather.
And unlike us in the stands, they did not have raingear as an option. They had long sleeves on after the half, but I imagine that they were all pretty drenched. I never looked down on the track to see any of them complaining, they should be cheered themselves for the job they do.

CameronBornAndBred
10-26-2009, 11:14 AM
So we go for our 3rd ACC win-in-a-row this week, huh?
Hell yeah! Cut said that the next game is always as important as the last, no matter the outcome of the last game. I'd love to win the next 2, to setup the possibility of that 7th vs. GT. (I think if we play our best football, we can beat Tech). That sets up the last 2 games as gravy games.

Tappan Zee Devil
10-26-2009, 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tappan Zee Devil
So - are you saying that faculty hirings should be based on the prospective professor's support of athletics rather than on academic credentials?


He said nothing of the sort. He said that basketball coaches shouldn't have have to field late night phone calls from faculty complaining about "spending so much money on Basketball, if you can't even beat Carolina?" How you got from there to should faculty hirings should be based on the prospective professor's support of athletics? is a bit of a mystery.

He (formerdukeathlete) said
" I think Sanford was hampered to a degree by the faculty brought in by Knight. Knight's "DNA" in this fashion proved to be a lasting drag, impediment on the Program."


Implication is that the faculty brought in under Knight did not support and may have opposed big time athletics.

I asked if he thought that should be considered in hiring.


Also, except at the very highest level, hiring of faculty is done by individual departments, not by the University president (although appointments do need to be approved by the central administration).

allenmurray
10-26-2009, 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tappan Zee Devil
So - are you saying that faculty hirings should be based on the prospective professor's support of athletics rather than on academic credentials?



He (formerdukeathlete) said
" I think Sanford was hampered to a degree by the faculty brought in by Knight. Knight's "DNA" in this fashion proved to be a lasting drag, impediment on the Program."


Implication is that the faculty brought in under Knight did not support and may have opposed big time athletics.

I asked if he thought that should be considered in hiring.


Also, except at the very highest level, hiring of faculty is done by individual departments, not by the University president (although appointments do need to be approved by the central administration).

I was more focused on the Foster quote.

I still think you made a big jump (and put words in his mouth - and I've never been one to defend FDA, with whom I almost always disagree). The leap from his pointing out that there was a time where a number of faculty de-emphasized athletics, to your question if he supports hiring decisions being made on support for athletics, is huge.

It certainly is possible to believe that there is value in hiring "professors who can relate to the undergrad Duke experience" as was stated later.

killerleft
10-26-2009, 11:50 AM
Hell yeah! Cut said that the next game is always as important as the last, no matter the outcome of the last game. I'd love to win the next 2, to setup the possibility of that 7th vs. GT. (I think if we play our best football, we can beat Tech). That sets up the last 2 games as gravy games.

Yesssss! There's plenty of room for improvement, of course. How great is it that we KNOW our guys are capable of winning these games if they play well? I wish I could channel some of my excitement and energy to others who lack that!

allenmurray
10-26-2009, 11:53 AM
Hell yeah! Cut said that the next game is always as important as the last, no matter the outcome of the last game. I'd love to win the next 2, to setup the possibility of that 7th vs. GT. (I think if we play our best football, we can beat Tech). That sets up the last 2 games as gravy games.

Gravy games? No! Instead I see them as games that will put us in the ACC championship, and on to a BCS bowl! :D :D

CameronBornAndBred
10-26-2009, 12:00 PM
Gravy games? No! Instead I see them as games that will put us in the ACC championship, and on to a BCS bowl! :D :D
I don't even want to look past UVA, but IF we are playing WFU and Miami with 7 wins, our team is pressure free. That's why I say gravy, because they would be able just have a hell of a lot of fun. Either way...if we don't go bowling this year, I'm going to be happy all the same. We have taken some major steps to show we are on our way up.

watzone
10-26-2009, 01:09 PM
Austin Kelly talks of the win - http://bluedevilnation.net/2009/10/duke-wr-austin-kelly-talks-about-the-devils-big-win-over-maryland/

JaMarcus Russell
10-26-2009, 01:24 PM
My "snowflake" reference was more in response to the assumption that young people are somehow really worried about getting wet on a mild day. I know from personal experience that this is not, in general, true. I'm just sad that present Duke students don't consider watching our improving football team to qualify as a reason to put up with the rain.

True, but there are lots of parents who wouldn't want to sit in the rain for a football game, and when one's parents fly or drive hundreds of miles to get to campus, I think most kids will feel obligated to spend time with them going to Nasher or something like that instead of the game.

As for the other poster who brought up tailgate, I would guess that 1000-1200 students attend tailgate each weekend except for parent's weekend or when a home game falls on Thanksgiving or Fall Break. That leaves 5,000 undergrads and probably 5,000 grad students who aren't partying or going to the game for whatever reason (academics, sleep, general lack of interest in football, etc). Even if the number of students at the games matched the number of students at Cameron, it wouldn't look nearly as impressive because of the size of the venue.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-26-2009, 01:30 PM
Austin Kelly talks of the win - http://bluedevilnation.net/2009/10/duke-wr-austin-kelly-talks-about-the-devils-big-win-over-maryland/

Thanks for sharing that, watzone. And thanks for bringing us back to the real point of the day: Duke won another football game!

I've noticed several players when interviewed by a various reporters before and after the Maryland game have said that remaining humble was an important part of playing this game and preparing for the next one. This recurring response suggests a theme encouraged by the coaches and embraced by our guys. Another aspect of the Duke way? Sounds like the way winners talk and act.

Tappan Zee Devil
10-26-2009, 03:57 PM
I was more focused on the Foster quote.

I still think you made a big jump (and put words in his mouth - and I've never been one to defend FDA, with whom I almost always disagree). The leap from his pointing out that there was a time where a number of faculty de-emphasized athletics, to your question if he supports hiring decisions being made on support for athletics, is huge.

It certainly is possible to believe that there is value in hiring "professors who can relate to the undergrad Duke experience" as was stated later.


OK - Perhaps I was a little quick to snap at FDA - probably as the result of disagreement and frustration with his past statements.

and yes I agree that there certainly is value in hiring "professors who can relate to the undergrad Duke experience" - although as someone who teaches at a university, I know that the reality at most major research universities (which Duke is) is that in most departments, hirings and promotions are based primarily on publications and research with some weight placed on ability to teach (probably more at Duke than at my university). Hopefully professors are interested in furthering the entire undergraduate experience (i.e things beyond their classroom and lab), but unfortunately thay usually aren't rewarded for it.

6th Man
10-26-2009, 05:18 PM
I've noticed several players when interviewed by a various reporters before and after the Maryland game have said that remaining humble was an important part of playing this game and preparing for the next one.

I took the kids down to the tunnel area after the win Saturday and several of the players came around the track high fiving the fans. Austin Kelly came through and was thanking folks for being there. I know I bleed Duke blue, but how many players in college football come around thanking fans like that? I really think this is a great group of kids and they are working their tails off to give us something to be excited about. Win or lose, these kids have improved tremendously and they are out there competing. They deserve way more respect and support than they are getting. Unfortunatley the very people reading this post are the ones that are out there supporting these guys. So from one fan to another...I appreciate you Duke football guys.

CameronBornAndBred
10-26-2009, 05:59 PM
Win or lose, these kids have improved tremendously and they are out there competing. They deserve way more respect and support than they are getting. Unfortunatley the very people reading this post are the ones that are out there supporting these guys. So from one fan to another...I appreciate you Duke football guys.
The brunchgates continue long after the game is over, and we have started "the reverse Devil Walk" congratulating the guys on the game as they head back to their dorms. They are a bunch of impressive young men and really do seem to appreciate the support and encouragement we give them. If they're lucky, that means food as well...last time one of our brunchgaters handed them out cupcakes...ha! Some stop to talk, but all of them continue on with smiles, even if it wasn't a victory.

cbfx3
10-26-2009, 06:57 PM
As stated in my earlier post I simply wish the students would come out in full force to take part in what is happening with the program. Thad and the rest of the seniors only have just a couple of home games left. These guys deserve the support of their peers. Rain or shine!

towerview road
10-26-2009, 09:15 PM
I think we also need to consider that Duke has changed (even in a decade) since many of us were there.

When I was a student at Duke, football was terrible. No one went to games (nor did tailgate yet exist in its current form) - we perpetually lost and Wally Wade was always full of the opposing team's fans. My freshman year, my father, brother, and I went to the Parents' Weekend football game and my father tried to explain what football was to me (I was one of those girls who had yet to understand the concept of the downs, et. cet.) yet because the Blue Devils never made a down, it was a tad difficult. I remember several sorority sisters bringing football players as dates to a sorority function one spring and how those boys were just miserable - and not just because they were losing. I later became friends with one such player and there were several years when the students/players and the coaching staff just did not work. I don't want to betray any confidences, but, generally speaking, I give a ton of credit to those players who didn't quit the team from the late nineties to Cut's arrival. That's real sportsmanship.

I digress. . . anyways, the point of this post (and I've been reading DBR for years but I have only posted once or twice before, when I felt so moved) is that I don't think we can deny, also, that the demographics of Duke are also changing and limiting the pool of students who may be interested in football, for example. I think it would be great if more Duke students cared about football enough to show up for games, but I think it's equally important that Duke employees (everyone from housekeeping to the Victor Dzau, head of DUMC, and faculty too!) are encouraged to come to games. Did you know that 30,000 people work at Duke or one of its affiliated/related subsidaries (for example, doctors' clinics)? 30,000 people! Do you think that Michigan fills the Big House just with their students? (Fun Fact: Michigan Stadium seats 106,000 people. . . . there are 26,000 undergrads and 15,000 grad students at Ann Arbor. . . you do the math!) I also think it underscores the importance of creating a Duke football fan culture in the Triangle area. Lots of people who live in the RTP area are transplants from other places. Can we become their "local" team -- and provide some fun, low-cost entertainment for those UW fans or UCLA fans who can't easily get to one of their "real" favorites' games very easily? This is going to sound bizarre, and perhaps heretical to sports, but in some ways I think we should try to get more people to WW on game days, and frankly I don't care if they are Duke born- and bred- or if they paint their faces blue or if they are just going to show up and watch (as long as they don't cheer for our opponents!). Growing up, we didn't live near Duke or my father's alma mater, but we still went to college football games and meekly cheered for the team to which we had no ties whatsoever. My dad enjoyed sharing football with my siblings and me - and it was a relatively cheap way to spend a beautiful fall afternoon.

I'm a 3rd generation Duke grad in my family and wish my family or I lived closer so we could come to games. Trust me, if Duke goes bowlin', we'll be there. No matter how long the drive!

towerview road
10-26-2009, 09:34 PM
Oops. I got off-course there. What I was going to say in my earlier post was that if we break down the numbers of undergrads at Duke, we see how small the 'pre-programmed for football' student body really is. For example, did you know that international students now make up about 12% of the student body? I am willing to bet that nearly all of these students have a very different experience with "futbol" growing up. So if we subtract these students, hypothetically, from the student body, we're down to 5400 students, conservatively.

Additionally, students of color have made leaps in enrollment at Duke and the campus has really been diversified (which I think is good and is not up for debate on this thread) - 44.5% of the freshman class identifies themselves as a student of color (Asian-American, African-American, Native-American, Latino/a, et al.) However football has not traditionally been a sport embraced by all communities - some might argue that it is a traditionally Caucasian or African-American sport. Just as someone earlier on this thread suggested that football culture is especially engrained in the South (and as one might argue that ice hockey is much bigger in collegiate sport in the Northeast and Upper Midwest), I would argue that football isn't by and large an especially popular sport in the Asian-American community, who now make up 27% of the student body. So let's subtract 27% of 5400 (1458) - our new number is now 3942.

I know I will probably get attacked for saying that statement: yes, I think it is a generalization and a stereotype, no I am not making a value judgement on whether this is "good" or "bad," and yes, I am aware there are numerous examples of how I am wrong (and there are clear exceptions - particularly for Pacific Islanders, like Native Hawaiians and Samoans, for example). On the other hand I think we all would agree that there just aren't hoardes of Asian-American, or for that matter Latino, football players in the NFL or even collegiate football. Yes, there are some. But a good chunk? Perhaps not.

No, I am not suggesting that someone should choose to support their school or watch a sport because of the color of their skin - or the color of the skin of the players on the field. But I do think it is important to point out though that fewer students may be coming to Duke each year with any pre-existing knowledge of, or even interest in, football. Contrast this to decades ago when my mother attended Duke, for example. Most of her classmates came from the South or mid-Atlantic areas (there were a sizeable chunk from the Northeast and out West, but less so than today). Many of them came to Duke with some sort of existing ties to sports, as competitors or spectators. Not all, but many.

So maybe we shouldn't focus so much on getting a few thousand students - nearly all of whom who applied and chose to attend Duke when the school had a totally terrible record (another clue they might not be huge football fans!) - to attend games and start thinking about how we can get others (employees, faculty, alumni, locals) to come?

P.S. I do hope more students show up, nonetheless. I would kill to live nearby and get to go to games now. Maybe you learn these things with age!

sagegrouse
10-26-2009, 09:45 PM
Additionally, students of color have made leaps in enrollment at Duke and the campus has really been diversified (which I think is good and is not up for debate on this thread) - 44.5% of the freshman class identifies themselves as a student of color (Asian-American, African-American, Native-American, Latino/a, et al.) However football has not traditionally been a sport embraced by all communities - some might argue that it is a traditionally Caucasian or African-American sport. Just as someone earlier on this thread suggested that football culture is especially engrained in the South (and as one might argue that ice hockey is much bigger in collegiate sport in the Northeast and Upper Midwest), I would argue that football isn't by and large an especially popular sport in the Asian-American community, who now make up 27% of the student body. So let's subtract 27% of 5400 (1458) - our new number is now 3942.



Excuse me, but what is going on here? You seem to be conflating the growth of Asiam minorities at Duke with the lack of student interest in college football? This is not only naive but also insulting to just about everybody --readers, students, minorities, etc.

Can we bury this message?

sagegrouse

duke09hms
10-26-2009, 10:05 PM
No, she does bring up somewhat valid points that even though they may not be PC, do have some merit.

Basically she is stating two facts and drawing a connection between them.

1. American football is a sport that really exists only in America, and even in America there are regions that heavily emphasize football, such as the South/SEC country and regions that do not to the same extent (New England for example).

2. Duke has recently become a truly international institution, drawing students from all around the world. Whereas, Duke students used to be drawn mostly from the South, many of the current students are from places in the world that football was not that important such as international students or certain ethnic groups where football is not very popular.

So it stands to reason that a significant portion of Duke's "newer" student body will not be heavily predisposed to follow football. Not saying that they will never become football fans but just that there is no pre-existing inclination for an increasing fraction of the student body.

These two statements are true, and so I think her point is valid.

sagegrouse
10-26-2009, 10:33 PM
No, she does bring up somewhat valid points that even though they may not be PC, do have some merit.

Basically she is stating two facts and drawing a connection between them.

1. American football is a sport that really exists only in America, and even in America there are regions that heavily emphasize football, such as the South/SEC country and regions that do not to the same extent (New England for example).

2. Duke has recently become a truly international institution, drawing students from all around the world. Whereas, Duke students used to be drawn mostly from the South, many of the current students are from places in the world that football was not that important such as international students or certain ethnic groups where football is not very popular.

So it stands to reason that a significant portion of Duke's "newer" student body will not be heavily predisposed to follow football. Not saying that they will never become football fans but just that there is no pre-existing inclination for an increasing fraction of the student body.

These two statements are true, and so I think her point is valid.

Oh! Aside from the unfortunate link of Asian enrolments with student attendance at football, the real silliness is that we are even trying to link changes in the student body to interest in a football program that, prior to Cutcliffe, had lost nearly all of its conference games for 13 years (since 1994). Why is anyone looking for a reason for lack of interest beyond that?

Back in the day we had good attendance with a much smaller undergraduate student body ~4,000 vs. 6,300 today. We also won several ACC football championships. Notice that I am not linking the fact that the majority of students were from the football-mad South to the attendance at football games. Heck we went to the games even though we had (gasp) Saturday AM classes.

sagegrouse

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-26-2009, 10:39 PM
Oh! Aside from the unfortunate link of Asian enrolments with student attendance at football, the real silliness is that we are even trying to link changes in the student body to interest in a football program that, prior to Cutcliffe, had lost nearly all of its conference games for 13 years (since 1994). Why is anyone looking for a reason for lack of interest beyond that?

Back in the day we had good attendance with a much smaller undergraduate student body ~4,000 vs. 6,300 today. We also won several ACC football championships. Notice that I am not linking the fact that the majority of students were from the football-mad South to the attendance at football games. Heck we went to the games even though we had (gasp) Saturday AM classes.

sagegrouse
Not only Saturday classes, but limited cuts for most of that time as well. Miss more than three classes and one might be failing the class. No cuts allowed the day before or the day after a break. I remember hearing about the conflict which arose when Duke was going to the Cotton Bowl in 1960. For the band to be there, the members had to miss the first class following a holiday break... Another infraction which could bring an F in the class. This many years later, I don't even remember how the conflict was resolved.