Tailgating, students, & football attendance

[allenmurray]

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=29684

There were a number of posts made in the Duke vs. VT football thread that referenced the alcohol culture at Duke (quite strong) and student football attendance at Duke (incredibly weak). These posts were all pulled due to their venturing too close to public-policy type of discussions (according to a moderator).

I thought this decision rather odd since DBR posted the above linked story, and stories posted to the main page have always been considered appropriate for the Elizabeth King forum.

Student football attendance at Duke is abysmal. Yet pre-game tailgating by students is strong. I routinely pass students walking away from Wallace Wade as I am walking toward the stadium. They are usually dressed in costume, can often be seen taking periodic vomiting breaks during their stroll away from the stadium, and some are barely able to walk without assistance. I certainly acknowledge that is the case on many college campuses. However, my experience in attending football games at other colleges is that the drinking is a part of the football experience, and the students actually end up at the game. Here the drinking experience seems to be not an accompianment to the activity, but is the activity. The studentt attendance at the game is incredibly poor. In fact, if you ranked attendance by groups in 4 year spans the 18 - 21 cohort probably has fewer members than even the toddler and medicare cohorts.

Is it possible for a university to have a good football culture if none of the studetns go to the games?

[Wander]

One of the few things that embarrasses me about Duke. The worst part is that so many of the students (like the dude who wrote that article) actually take pride in not going to football games, which is pathetic beyond words.

[Bluedog]

Well, I think it's somewhat of a chicken and the egg situation. Does more quality on the football field lead to higher attendance or does better student turnout lead to a better product on the field? I think it's a bit of both, but more that if the football team starts producing, students will show up as that's a much more immediate thing. It's been shown in the past that if the team is good, students will come. Not justifying the going to tailgate and not game crowd, but just saying that's how it rolls for lots of people. I do think, however, that lack of student support is somewhat detrimental to recruiting, and thus negatively impacts the quality on the field. But when Duke wins only two home games your entire four years (as they have been doing for the past 10 years), it's hard for certain people to justify going to the game. When I was an undergrad just a few years ago, I'd say the majority of the people that go to tailgate have no interest in going to the game whatsoever (most notably, pretty much 100% of my girl friends had no desire). I'd usually want to go the game after, and it was sometimes hard to find others in my group to go with. Definitely needs to be a major shift in culture to get attendance up, but even with an additional 1,000 people, it doesn't fill the stadium. Not even close.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Cutcliffe has issued a request to the students. From an article in the Hearald-Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com/pages/full_story_sports/push?article-Cutcliffe-+%E2%80%98We+need+that+student+section+full%E2%80% 99+for+home+football%20&id=3790367-Cutcliffe-+%E2%80%98We+need+that+student+section+full%E2%80% 99+for+home+football&instance=main_article)



I was disappointed in the homecoming crowd. I thought North Carolina Central had more students at the game than we did,” Cutcliffe said. “The loyal ones that were out there, they were wet and they were long, and they’re extremely appreciated. But just like our football team, we can all do better.

“We need that student section full. It makes a huge difference.

As for last game, the weather sucked, and being that it rained the whole game I was actually impressed with the attendance (of all the fans, not just students). I hope they turn out in droves, but am less than optimistic for this game due to the fall break.

[Devilsfan]

We sat through the rain last Sat. and I thought the crowd while not what we have seen the last several games pretty good when you consider the weather and the lack of opposition. I personally don't want to see us ever play a team of that caliber. You don't get ready for the ACC by playing cupcakes, imo. I am excited and anxious to see how we preform against the best of the ACC this Sat. I believe we are witnessing the start of the rebuilding of Duke Football. It may take a while but we have the coach and staff to make it happen.

[watzone]

I had an article son this earlier this week - http://bluedevilnation.net/2009/09/student-apathy-is-a-concern-for-duke-football/

The pics I took of students partying one day last season would blow your hair back;)

[formerdukeathlete]

We sat through the rain last Sat. and I thought the crowd while not what we have seen the last several games pretty good when you consider the weather and the lack of opposition. I personally don't want to see us ever play a team of that caliber. You don't get ready for the ACC by playing cupcakes, imo. I am excited and anxious to see how we preform against the best of the ACC this Sat. I believe we are witnessing the start of the rebuilding of Duke Football. It may take a while but we have the coach and staff to make it happen.

I understand ticket sales for the Central game fell well below expectations. The expectations may have been a bit detached from reality. You cant fault students from not being interested in the Central game. They are not from Durham for the very much most part, Central is a not even a full fledged d-1aa program.

Duke is a national school and used to have a national caliber Football program. Stanford is doing a better job of recruiting football players with a national approach. Suggest Cut do less thinking about Durham, and more about finding smart top-rated Football players from across the country. If he helps us get the stadium fixed up and facilities upgraded, he will have helped us get half way there. To get us all the way there, we will have to recruit as well as Stanford is recruiting right now. Focusing on North Carolina (and thinking about playing Central) and getting guys UNC passes on wont quite do it.

[El_Diablo]

Want better support? It's simple: get your team to stop dropping 10-yard passes and missing 32-yard field goals.

[Duvall]

Does student support matter? There simply aren't enough undergrads to noticably affect the crowd at a football stadium. If Duke starts winning enough to draw a sizable crowd to games, the students will come. Until then, student attendance isn't worth worrying about.

[BlueintheFace]

This argument always boils down to the same old conclusion.

If you want student support for a sport at a school where that sport will ALWAYS play second fiddle to the primary one, YOU HAVE TO WIN.

That is really all there is to it. We can wring our hands about it day and night and wish it were not true, but that is just how it is. Toss in the fact that Duke has a relatively small student body and the issue is compounded.

[Devilsfan]

I think the coaches know that winning will produce big crowds. They first need an O line to pass block, where the QB throws for 300 yds down the field and not from sideline to sideline. It's just a matter of a few (3-4) recruiting classes and we should all be much happier. P.S. I don't know what planet some of us are living on but ALL college students enjoy a good time. Duke is no different just an abundance of much higher achievers in the classroom.

[allenmurray]

P.S. I don't know what planet some of us are living on but ALL college students enjoy a good time. Duke is no different just an abundance of much higher achievers in the classroom.

No argument there. However, at some schools students both have a good tailgating and support the football team. At Duke there is a culture of tailgating and then going anywhere other than to Wallace Wade.

[Wander]

Want better support? It's simple: get your team to stop dropping 10-yard passes and missing 32-yard field goals.

True, but Duke students are supposedly the best fans ever, right? I'm not going to blame an individual student for not going to a game because the team isn't very good (OK, maybe just a little), but is it so much to ask that at the very least they don't display their absence as a badge of pride?

Maybe not really relevant, but just for kicks: the school most widely recognized as having the best tailgate has been pretty mediocre in football (Ole Miss).

[Indoor66]

How many of the present students came to Duke to watch football? How many Duke students came to Duke to watch sports? Maybe we all need a little perspective.

[throatybeard]

How many of the present students came to Duke to watch football? How many Duke students came to Duke to watch sports? Maybe we all need a little perspective.

I honestly wouldn't mind if we dropped to D3 in all sports, like Chicago. Obviously, this would have to occur sometime well after Krzyzewski retires. And would probably never happen.

[RelativeWays]

I don't think the quality of opponents has anything to do with the poor attendance. In fact that nobody wants to see Duke play Central because its a sure Duke victory runs counter to the idea that nobody will show up for a game with a team that would clobber Duke (like VT). Tomorrow's game will probably be the worst attendance wise. Fall break, little chance of victory, fragile fanbase, early start, I'd bet money that there will be more VT fans at Wade than Duke fans (its only a couple of hours away anyway). Attendancewould be better against someone like Elon or Davidson, teams Duke would most likely beat or destroy.

I'll be honest. I think if Cutcliffe cannot get this program off the ground to respectability, and I'm talking just winning 5-7 games a year consistantly, then we might want to buck up to the fact that Duke is not a bowl division level team and it would be to their great benefit to move down to more appropriate competition. Lots of teams built their football foundations at the Div 1 AA level, Duke and maybe UVA as well might have to do the same. I don't see any shame in it honestly, and I don't see why the ACC would be so against it. What good is having a 12 team league when really only 9 or 10 of the teams are of equal ability?

[pfrduke]

What good is having a 12 team league when really only 9 or 10 of the teams are of equal ability?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[watzone]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Exactly, football in the ACC brings in money. Yall don't think basketball makes money for Duke? Anyhow, Cut took over a program in shambles so we should give him some time. I mean they have won 5 games under him so far which is an improvement over the last two coaches in a big way. This is a rebuilding year and it was easy to see that coming if you truly know of the situation.

[77devil]

I honestly wouldn't mind if we dropped to D3 in all sports, like Chicago. Obviously, this would have to occur sometime well after Krzyzewski retires. And would probably never happen.

Fortunately, you don't have a vote.

[taiw93]

I honestly wouldn't mind if we dropped to D3 in all sports, like Chicago. Obviously, this would have to occur sometime well after Krzyzewski retires. And would probably never happen.

Throatybeard, I can definitely see where you're coming from with this, but I could not disagree more. Duke's elite D-I athletics program (alright, mostly just the basketball and lacrosse) is what sets it apart from other schools with similar academic reputations (for example, the Ivies sans Harvard, Princeton and Yale). I feel that Duke's combination of elite athletics (and the accompanying school spirit) and academics defines the school's identity, and a move to D-III would destroy this completely.

On a slightly more relevant note, I searched "Duke tailgate" on Youtube and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6VD7rDlcoA) is what I found. Not exactly what I want people to think of when they think of Duke football.

[allenmurray]

On a slightly more relevant note, I searched "Duke tailgate" on Youtube and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6VD7rDlcoA) is what I found. Not exactly what I want people to think of when they think of Duke football.

That is pretty much what I walk my kids through when we come to the football games. Fortunately the 10 year old doesn't come very often and the 15 year old has better sense than the students shown in the videos.

Maybe in the same way that restaurants used to have smokng and no-smoking sections the university could have puking and no-puking parking lots.

[Scorp4me]

Couldn't agree with Wander more. Simply put they are an embarrassment and they embarrass themselves. That they can't see that is simply a sad.

[J.Blink]

I kind of agree with Throaty as well.

Having been an undergrad at Duke and a grad student at UChicago, there's no question in my mind that there were good things about both schools. I think I would've hated being an undergrad at UC (it is the place where fun goes to die, after all), but being a grad student there was fantastic.

I'm obviously a big fan of duke sports (I'm here on DBR on a Saturday night, right? and going to VT game tomorrow) and while I'm not calling for us to be downgraded to D3 or anything like that, I think we could be spending less money on sports and athletics (but I would say the same thing about college sports across the country). While I continue to hope for improvement under Cutcliffe et al, the enormous coaching salaries etc make me cringe. Obviously there are competing camps out there--I would think most of the DBR crowd would solidly pull for us to be a sports powerhouse above all else (while keeping good academics), while many others would pull for us to be an academic powerhouse (while keeping the sports). I don't think the two are incompatible, and would just like to see a nice and balanced middle path. Derisive comments about the new "type" of students who now make up the crazies is somewhat indicative of this divide I think (what "type" of student are we talking about -- "people who don't know basketball," and other comments -- sounds like a euphemisms for nerds and dorks to me!)

Getting offtopic here a lot (and all of this is absolutely IMHO), but I do think Duke had a lot more of a divided campus than UChicago did. In my opinion, Duke was a lot more cliquish with athletes and frats, independents, crazies, etc. Undergrads, graduate students and faculty at UC all interacted together a lot more than is typical I believe.

I know I'm definitely in the minority when I say this -- but when I read about people coming to Duke to watch basketball (for instance see the current k-ville blasphemy thread) I don't see that as necessarily a good thing. But again--everything I've just written here is my personal biases, and I don't expect Duke to decrease funding or efforts for sports.

[Devilsfan]

Throatybeard doesn't get it. Duke is Duke because of the ENTIRE package. Top notch basketball, football that WILL BE competitive (and have a student culture change), soccer, golf etc., camping out and yes tailgating. No well rounded young American wants to go to chicago over a DUKE. Chicago is great for post graduate business study some say, but to get an undergraduate experience compared to a Stanford or Duke, not even close. That's my opinion and nobody can change it.

[YourLandlord]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLFSkxqRu9U&feature=related

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

That is pretty much what I walk my kids through when we come to the football games. Fortunately the 10 year old doesn't come very often and the 15 year old has better sense than the students shown in the videos.

Maybe in the same way that restaurants used to have smokng and no-smoking sections the university could have puking and no-puking parking lots.

We don't park and come in from that direction and we tailgate in the Card Gym lot so I guess we lead a sheltered life. Does the team have to walk through that horrendous scene on their Devil Walk?

This is sickeningly sad.:mad:

[Devilsfan]

Are they hurting anyone? The students are overachievers in the classrooms all week long. How many of the 6000+ undergrads actually attend? I think there are more pressing issues to address than college kids acting like "college kids". Just my opinion.

[El_Diablo]

That is pretty much what I walk my kids through when we come to the football games. Fortunately the 10 year old doesn't come very often and the 15 year old has better sense than the students shown in the videos.

Maybe in the same way that restaurants used to have smokng and no-smoking sections the university could have puking and no-puking parking lots.

This year, all the undergrads are in one lot in the blue zone (first lot on the left, coming from West Campus), and it's fenced off on all sides (even in the back, which usually opens up into the second lot, there is a temporary orange fence with two guards to make sure people aren't coming in/out that way). The only way to "walk through it" is if you choose to enter it from Wannamaker. There's no logical need to enter that lot unless you want to be there--you cannot use it as a shortcut to the stadium, since there's only one place to enter and exit.

The other lots may have some random people partying, but they're not the undergrad lot depicted in these videos.


Does the team have to walk through that horrendous scene on their Devil Walk?

This is sickeningly sad.:mad:

No, the team doesn't have to walk through the undergrad lot. No one does. Please don't be too distressed over some kids just having a good time.

[Brian913]

Harbaugh, who went to Michigan, took the Stanford job notwithstanding that the Football team there averages around 1200 math verbal SAT and that there are significantly higher academic cut-offs than at Duke in Football recruiting.



Is there any link that gives backup for these figures.

[J.Blink]

FDA,

Thanks for the figures. Something for me to chew on.


Throatybeard doesn't get it. Duke is Duke because of the ENTIRE package. Top notch basketball, football that WILL BE competitive (and have a student culture change), soccer, golf etc., camping out and yes tailgating.

In YOUR opinion (and others as well), but hardly everybody's. I'll never forget my freshman year seeing Duhon walk into the dorm--half the dorm was just trying to get a glance at him. He was walking in to work on a school project with a kid in the dorm--who it later turned out, had no idea who Duhon was. He didn't care at all about basketball. I don't think the kids who DON'T care about being sports fan are lesser students, unwanted by Duke, etc.


No well rounded young American wants to go to chicago over a DUKE. Chicago is great for post graduate business study some say, but to get an undergraduate experience compared to a Stanford or Duke, not even close.

I think that's utterly insane. I met my share of "well rounded" people at Duke and Chicago both (is this more of the cliquish attitude I noted earlier?). I likewise met my share of people who were NOT especially well balanced at both schools. You're deluded if you think otherwise. Given your defense of the tailgating videos, do you think that tailgating and cheering for a sports team automatically makes one a well rounded person?


That's my opinion and nobody can change it.

Very nice.

[allenmurray]

This year, all the undergrads are in one lot in the blue zone (first lot on the left, coming from West Campus), and it's fenced off on all sides (even in the back, which usually opens up into the second lot, there is a temporary orange fence with two guards to make sure people aren't coming in/out that way). The only way to "walk through it" is if you choose to enter it from Wannamaker. There's no logical need to enter that lot unless you want to be there--you cannot use it as a shortcut to the stadium, since there's only one place to enter and exit.

The other lots may have some random people partying, but they're not the undergrad lot depicted in these videos.



No, the team doesn't have to walk through the undergrad lot. No one does. Please don't be too distressed over some kids just having a good time.

That was my experience from last year. I've changed where I park since (I walk further just to avoid that scene - It seems perhaps I didn't need to change since the university built a fence around the zoo). Oh well, it is a nice walk.

25+ college students die from alcohol poisoning each year. The over-achievement of Duke students may lead them to feel entitled to their excess, but it won't protect them. And I actually might be a little more sympathetic if they partied as a part of the football experience. They don't. Student attendance is a joke - they don't ocme to the games, they simply have an excuse for public intoxication. Drinking as a part of a social activity is different from drinking soley for the puspose of gettint intoxicated. One leads to levity and friendships, the other to negative health effects and alcohollism.

[El_Diablo]

Drinking as a part of a social activity is different from drinking soley for the puspose of gettint intoxicated.

Tailgate (by itself) IS pretty social if you ask me. It's not like these people are locked in room alone, drinking a Busch Light. They're doing it as part of a huge social experience over the course of several hours on a weekend, and they're having fun with their friends.

A lot of them DO go to the game afterwards...so what if they don't ALL go? Do you really think that there's no social activity involved in Tailgate unless they ALL go to the game afterwards? It's just drinking "soley [sic] for the puspose [sic] of gettint [sic] intoxicated"...unless the subsequent behavior of others (going to the game) imparts some sort of extra meaning to the partying--after the fact? Please.

Some people don't like football at all. Some people like it, but don't want to sit through a one-sided game to cheer for a continually terrible team that suddenly aspires to be mediocre. There's no need to keep people from having a good time just because you think they have some sort of overpowering obligation to go to the football game afterwards in order to justify the fun.

If Duke keeps playing like they did against VT, then the couple hundred students we're talking about (who go to Tailgate but bypass the game) may start changing their minds. It's taken a LOT of time to build up student apathy, and it will take some time to undo it.

Besides, do you really want all those people vomitting in Wallace Wade? :)

[Richard Berg]

No well rounded young American wants to go to chicago over a DUKE.
Except for, you know, the thousands of well rounded young Americans who do precisely that each & every year...

I don't have a problem with tailgate. It keeps the insanity centralized and open. Nobody can complain they weren't invited due to clique status, and it takes very little manpower to keep an eye on the safety of a large crowd. (Pretty sure nobody's ever died from drinking 3% ABV keg beer, Allen. Small groups pounding Jagerbombs behind closed doors is infinitely more dangerous, yet almost impossible to monitor on a broad scale.)

I was against the removal of the overt party scene from the Main West corridor for the same reason. Nan agreed in principle, saying she would've done things differently if her hands weren't tied by the law...

Anyway, my point is that things like tailgating and K-ville are practiced by a distinct (if vocal) minority of Duke students. Only 1/3 of undergrads go Greek. Fewer than 1/4 can fit into the undergrad sections of Cameron (even when filled to capacity, which they haven't been in some time). FWIW, I never went to tailgate, nor did my friends, but I'd bet anything I attended more Duke sports events than Devilsfan.

By contrast, Wally Wade holds over 33k -- even if we somehow doubled the number of undergrads in attendance (generously estimated at 1000), it wouldn't make a dent. UNC and State will always be able to send over a much smaller % of their student base and still take over our home field...and there's nothing we can do about it. Get over it and enjoy the game. 9F! 9F! Unless your plans for improved football facilities also include 20 or 30 new undergrad dorms, hundreds of new faculty, etc.

[JaMarcus Russell]

Is there any link that gives backup for these figures.

Yeah, I would very interested in seeing a link as well. I remember reading about 4 or 5 years ago that Duke's football team had the highest average SAT score in Division 1, ahead of Vandy, Rice, and Stanford. The team average wasn't particularly impressive. If I recall, it was in the 1070-1130 range, but I remember that the article said that it was higher than Stanford's average at the time.

[allenmurray]

Tailgate (by itself) IS pretty social if you ask me. It's not like these people are locked in room alone, drinking a Busch Light. They're doing it as part of a huge social experience over the course of several hours on a weekend, and they're having fun with their friends.

A lot of them DO go to the game afterwards...so what if they don't ALL go? Do you really think that there's no social activity involved in Tailgate unless they ALL go to the game afterwards? It's just drinking "soley [sic] for the puspose [sic] of gettint [sic] intoxicated"...unless the subsequent behavior of others (going to the game) imparts some sort of extra meaning to the partying--after the fact? Please.

Some people don't like football at all. Some people like it, but don't want to sit through a one-sided game to cheer for a continually terrible team that suddenly aspires to be mediocre. There's no need to keep people from having a good time just because you think they have some sort of overpowering obligation to go to the football game afterwards in order to justify the fun.

If Duke keeps playing like they did against VT, then the couple hundred students we're talking about (who go to Tailgate but bypass the game) may start changing their minds. It's taken a LOT of time to build up student apathy, and it will take some time to undo it.

Besides, do you really want all those people vomitting in Wallace Wade? :)

You're kidding, right? I've had cars that would hold more people than Duke students who typically attend football games. ;) Seriously, the student football attendance at Duke is really bad. I do recognize that even if every student came to the games it might not make a real dent in the attendance as Duke has a small population compared to both the size of the stadium and compared to other Division I schools.

While tailgating is a social activity, there remains a large general difference in drinking for the sole purpose of getting as intoxicated as possible, and drinking as a part of a social gathering. Student tailgating parties are really not about tailgating as part of the social aspect of football. They are barely even social gatherings. They are drinking fests. However, I have a feeling you don't believe that binge drinking, alcohol posioning, or other alcohol related problems exist on college campuses given your rigorous defense of the student drinking culture. But they do. Spend the evening in an ER within 10 miles of a college campus some time. Or go to the funeral of a college student who engaged in the increasingly popular ritual of trying to drink 21 shots on their 21st birthday.

I drink. I drink at tailgates (even ones at 9:30 in the morning). But I don't drink until I have reached the point of no longer being able to walk, no longer being able to control my own bodily functions, or no longer being able to remain concious. And frankly, college students or not, I don't understand those who defend those behaviors as "kids being kids". Even as a college student I didn't do that (actually this is one of the areas in which my upbringing served me well. Not that my parents were against drinking, but that they could not afford to send me to college. Working 30 hours a week in a grocery store while you go to school will make you think twice about spending 3 nights a week intoxicated - it is hard to go to work that way, and thus hard to pay the rent and the tuition.).

[El_Diablo]

However, I have a feeling you don't believe that binge drinking, alcohol posioning or other alcohol related problems exist on college campuses given your rigorous defense of the student drinking culture.

Far from it. Of course alcohol problems exist. Here's a newsflash though--they exist outside of Tailgate. They exist outside of Duke. They exist outside of college campuses. Yeah, some of these young adults choose to take it too far at Tailgate. But if you're going to make a public policy argument against the evils of drinking, you're kind of undermining it by saying that it would be okay with you if they all subsequently attended the football game.

In the interest of keeping this outside of the public policy arena, let's try to keep this focused on Duke Football and student attendance rather than abstract harangues against binge drinking...since I think any reasonable person knows that binge drinking can be dangerous.

So you don't like student apathy towards the football program. Fine--I get it. But keep in mind that the percentage of Tailgaters who go to the game is much higher than non-Tailgaters who go to the game. Are you equally upset with the hundreds of students who just stay home entirely? Or go to the library or the mall instead? Where's the righteous frustration with all of them? There are a lot more people doing that than are going to Tailgate--don't they have an obligation to support the team as well?

The underlying problem is that football is a form of entertainment that requires some minor commitment from spectators. Duke football has not been very entertaining in recent years--unless you're a masochist (just kidding!)--so you shouldn't take it out on the students who either (a) don't care about football in general or (b) aren't entertained by Duke football enough to sit through 3 hours of it. Look at attendance now and compare it to three years ago. As the product on the field improves, attendance will improve (from Tailgaters and non-Tailgaters alike). But there will still be people wearing silly costumes and chugging nasty beer beforehand.

[El_Diablo]

For the record, I don't stay in the undergrad lot for more than a few minutes (if at all). I enjoy a cleaner, more laid-back tailgating experience. But to each his own.

[Brian913]

You're kidding, right? I've had cars that would hold more people than Duke students who typically attend football games. ;) Seriously, the student football attendance at Duke is really bad. I do recognize that even if every student came to the games it might not make a real dent in the attendance as Duke has a small population compared to both the size of the stadium and compared to other Division I schools.

While tailgating is a social activity, there remains a large general difference in drinking for the sole purpose of getting as intoxicated as possible, and drinking as a part of a social gathering. Student tailgating parties are really not about tailgating as part of the social aspect of football. They are barely even social gatherings. They are drinking fests. However, I have a feeling you don't believe that binge drinking, alcohol posioning, or other alcohol related problems exist on college campuses given your rigorous defense of the student drinking culture. But they do. Spend the evening in an ER within 10 miles of a college campus some time. Or go to the funeral of a college student who engaged in the increasingly popular ritual of trying to drink 21 shots on their 21st birthday.

I drink. I drink at tailgates (even ones at 9:30 in the morning). But I don't drink until I have reached the point of no longer being able to walk, no longer being able to control my own bodily functions, or no longer being able to remain concious. And frankly, college students or not, I don't understand those who defend those behaviors as "kids being kids". Even as a college student I didn't do that (actually this is one of the areas in which my upbringing served me well. Not that my parents were against drinking, but that they could not afford to send me to college. Working 30 hours a week in a grocery store while you go to school will make you think twice about spending 3 nights a week intoxicated - it is hard to go to work that way, and thus hard to pay the rent and the tuition.).

The problem is with the ridiculous drinking laws and the fact that this is really the only time/place on campus when the administration permits students to drink without massive restrictions.

[killerleft]

The problem is with the ridiculous drinking laws and the fact that this is really the only time/place on campus when the administration permits students to drink without massive restrictions.

That sounds reasonable.

It would be nice if the students understood how much their team needs them right now. And how close we are to getting some wins that will give the students a chance to have some fun without feeling miserable the rest of the day/weekend.

I've seen the tailgate, and I've seen the drunk students throwing up at Wally Wade. Sadly, negotiating the steps is too dangerous for some of them. They shouldn't come to the games.

[allenmurray]

But if you're going to make a public policy argument against the evils of drinking, you're kind of undermining it by saying that it would be okay with you if they all subsequently attended the football game.

I thiink that is a pretty unfair twisting of my words. My point was that drinking as a part of a social event is fundamentally different than drinking as its own raison d'etre. The kind of binge drinking that goes on both at Duke's student tailgates and at many college campuses has drinking not as part of a social activity, but as a quest only to get intoxicated as simply and quickly as possible. Here the drinking experience seems to be not an accompianment to the activity, but is the activity. My statement, And I actually might be a little more sympathetic if they partied as a part of the football experience. was linked directly to the statement, they don't come to the games, (tailgating is) simply an excuse for public intoxication. Drinking as a part of a social activity is different from drinking solely for the puspose of getting intoxicated. That is far, far different from what you implied that I said (that it would be okay with me if only they subsequently attended the football games). You mis-represented both my actual words and my intent.


In the interest of keeping this outside of the public policy arena, let's try to keep this focused on Duke Football and student attendance rather than abstract harangues against binge drinking...since I think any reasonable person knows that binge drinking can be dangerous.

Really? I think a lot of people don't know that (or at least believe it will never be a problem for them. They drink to the point of not being able to walk, not being able to remain upright, not being able to remain concious. Dozens a year die. And yet, folks don't take it seriously, instead they say,


Please don't be too distressed over some kids just having a good time.

[DukeBlueNikeShox]

I honestly wouldn't mind if we dropped to D3 in all sports, like Chicago. Obviously, this would have to occur sometime well after Krzyzewski retires. And would probably never happen.


Why should Duke drop to DIII?! Duke has top 10 programs in: men's basketball, women's basketball, men's lacrosse, women's lacrosse, women's tennis, women's golf, and field hockey....:confused:

[El_Diablo]

The "don't get too distressed" comment was in response to someone's angry face after considering the possibility that the football team might be exposed to the Tailgate lot before the game.

I see you've now focused this discussion on the problems of binge drinking, instead of student attendance at games...

Binge drinking is bad. But it happens every Thursday, Friday, and Saturday night. You think people aren't trowing up in the bathroom at Shooters or at some off-campus party every weekend night? I'm sorry that this is the one time that you're exposed to it nowadays, and that it gets you so upset when you should be enjoying the game. And I'm sorry if my limited treatment of it suggested that I approve of it--I don't. I just shake my head and move on (instead of going on DBR to criticize people who don't voice their moral objections as loudly as me).

Tailgate involves drinking. Some people obviously take it too far, but most people are just there having a good time (interacting with friends and dancing). Just because you see a video posted of someone puking...it doesn't mean everyone is doing it. And on a sidenote: it doesn't even mean that the guy in the video had alcohol poisoning (it could be that he just drank a lukewarm Milwaukee's Best--which tends to make people throw up immediately). You see the aftereffects of some and extrapolate it to the entire group, but (since you're not there) I think you're missing some of the social interaction that goes on, or you're just disregarding it as not "meaningful" social interaction. But to a lot of them, it is.

But yes, I wish less of them drink themselves sick and more of them go to the game afterwards.

[pbc2]

http://www.petersons.com/ugchannel/code/instvcprint.asp?inunid=8805&sponsor=1

from this link, 100% of enrolled students at Stanford scored above 1000 math verbal SAT.

A poster on this Board, dont recall his name at the moment, has a son currently on the Cal Football roster. We were in some give and take on the Football admissions and apparently the team average at Stanford at the time was 1226 math verbal.

As you may know, the NCAA stopped releasing team average data in the late 90s. However, recruiting websites, such as scout and rivals, include player provided academic data. Prior to the 2009 Duke recruiting class there were maybe 3 players on the Duke Football team with below 900 math verbal. Again, based on player provided data, there were perhaps 6 in the 2009 class. Duke's hard and fast SAT cutoff maybe around 850, whereas Stanford's apparently is 1000. I believe Stanford also has team average targets, much like the Ivy League, like Duke used to have. When a Henry Anderson comes up with 1330 math verbal, 31 ACT, this adds to the likelihood of receiving an offer. Cutcliffe does not at this time need to consider team averages, which is counter to the conventional wisdom that athletic teams should be within a certain deviation of the student body in order to prosper academically, socially at a school. Based on ball-parking, based on recruit provided data, the SAT math verbal of our 09 class was below 1000, below Stanford's apparent hard and fast cut-off.

As I mentioned, the leeway the Duke coaching staff currently enjoys is based on the misperception that this is required in order to compete recruiting wise within the ACC. Stanford's approach, mandated by their higher cutoffs, targeting highly-rated players kids with x on their PSAT, x grade points, with a national focus, yields better talent. I dont think our admin realize this fully at this point in time.

Thanks for your post, you make some good points. The only question I have is whether there is a difference in competing in the ACC and PAC-10. I would also point out that while Stanford is having success this season, they were 5-7, 4-8, and 1-11 the past three years (10-26 overall).

[Bluedog]

I would also point out that while Stanford is having success this season, they were 5-7, 4-8, and 1-11 the past three years (10-26 overall).

As opposed to our 1-10, 0-12, 1-11, and 4-8 records over the last four seasons? I'd take Stanford's results...Based on those numbers FDA provided (which I have no reason to not believe and I've heard similar numbers through first hand accounts), not to sound callous and elitist, but I honestly don't understand how Duke football graduates nearly 100% of its players year after year. I know SAT scores aren't everything, but when you are in a class that averages about 1480 on the SAT (M+V; 99th percentile) and you scored barely at the NCAA minimum at 850 (~20th percentile nationwide), how can you possibly handle the same amount of work? I worked extremely hard at Duke and didn't have to overcome such obstacles (although I never had a basketball or football player in any of my classes, being in engineering). Obviously, there are some classes/majors/departments at Duke that are somewhat of a joke compared to the rest of the institution. While I certainly want Duke football to perform well, I agree that the team as an average should be around one std deviation from the rest of the student body from an academic standpoint. That would put the SAT M+V at around 1120 (~65th percentile nationwide; as in, just a slightly above average high school student; not even an above average college student as many who take the SAT never enroll). Perhaps eliminates certain prospects (but exceptions are made since this is an average), but that should be more than doable. Not sure how this relates to tailgating and football attendance though....

[sagegrouse]

...[N]ot to sound callous and elitist, but I honestly don't understand how Duke football graduates nearly 100% of its players year after year.

Grade inflation helps a bunch. Back in the ages when dinosaurs roamed the earth, the All-Men's average was around 2.4. One-third of all first semester men failed to make a 2.0 and had to sit out fraternity rush. The women, of course, were in a different universe, but IIRC their averages were in the 2.8 range. My A in freshman calculus was the only one in a section of 30 or more students. I remember it more because I made so few than because no one else made one. (Yes, grades were posted; this was well before the concept of student privacy became law.) Also, Duke routinely failed to graduate one-third of entering men.

So, if average performance earns a B, then the C is the refuge for below-average students who will graduate on time. Academic advisors and tutors are also a big help -- perhaps more of an early warning system for a student-athlete getting into academic difficulty. Also, I am sure there is an endless search for easy graders in a faculty numbering nearly 1,000. Heck, all students to do that.

What makes the Duke football record amazing is that the record for other schools is so much worse, and all these schools offer majors allied with or under the control of the athletic department. I would like to think that Duke recruits folks who, brilliant or not, really want to get a degree.

sagegrouse

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

As opposed to our 1-10, 0-12, 1-11, and 4-8 records over the last four seasons? I'd take Stanford's results...Based on those numbers FDA provided (which I have no reason to not believe and I've heard similar numbers through first hand accounts), not to sound callous and elitist, but I honestly don't understand how Duke football graduates nearly 100% of its players year after year. I know SAT scores aren't everything, but when you are in a class that averages about 1480 on the SAT (M+V; 99th percentile) and you scored barely at the NCAA minimum at 850 (~20th percentile nationwide), how can you possibly handle the same amount of work? I worked extremely hard at Duke and didn't have to overcome such obstacles (although I never had a basketball or football player in any of my classes, being in engineering). Obviously, there are some classes/majors/departments at Duke that are somewhat of a joke compared to the rest of the institution. While I certainly want Duke football to perform well, I agree that the team as an average should be around one std deviation from the rest of the student body from an academic standpoint. That would put the SAT M+V at around 1120 (~65th percentile nationwide; as in, just a slightly above average high school student; not even an above average college student as many who take the SAT never enroll). Perhaps eliminates certain prospects (but exceptions are made since this is an average), but that should be more than doable. Not sure how this relates to tailgating and football attendance though....

Most of the football players I got to know, back when sagegrouse and I roamed the campus, didn't fit the stereotype of "dumb jocks." Some allowed that to be their public image because it's what was expected, but, in truth, they were bright, highly motivated and did well in their classes. Many majored in various areas of the liberal arts.

Take a look at their accomplishments in life after football. Over the years, Duke football players as a group have ranked among the highest of the various alumni demographic groups in terms of their gifts and service to Duke.

Until very recently, the number of tutors and staff to monitor and support football players' academic progress was fewer people than for the men's basketball team. We can complain about Carl Franks on a variety of fronts, but I remember hearing him tell the Blue Devil Club about his repeated requests for increases in the number of staff members to provide academic support to the football team. I remember Ted Roof working on the same issues of comparable support. The lack of university support for the program cut across all areas of football operations.

[VaDukie]

Bringing this back on topic to students & tailgate...

My perspective as a recent graduate is there's nothing that will change the student apathy other than winning games. Period. We can sit here and complain that the students should do more to support their school (which I believe they should), but students are too busy during the week to devote their Saturdays to cheering for what they believe to be a lost cause. B

There's also a part of the tailgate culture that some people have hinted at but no one has really addressed. It's easy to look at tailgate and dismiss it as a ridiculous display of debauchery, but its actually the only social event on campus where students congregate as a group and aren't divided by Greek affiliation, income, race, etc. Everyone is welcome and everyone has fun. It's hard to emphasize how important this is to the student body. It's probably even more of a unifying experience for the student body than K-Ville - as others have pointed out, no more than 1/4 of the student body can see any game in Cameron. That limit doesn't exist in the Blue Zone.

If the team starts winning then you'll start to see students really care about the games. I don't mean winning as in we have a fighting chance and play tough, but actually WINNING. Those of you paying attention know that student enthusiasm went up big time under Cutcliffe and is slowly growing. The students will care as much as the team gives them a reason to.

I'm sure there's the mindset among some that students should show support no matter what, but its just not realistic right now. You should have as much patience with the student attendance at games as you do with the team's progress on the field.

[bill brill]

from someone who graduated from duke in '52, when the grad rates were dismal. at freshman orientation, dean alan manchester said to look to the left, look to the right, and in four years, two of the three of you wouldn't be here. doubt it was actually that bad, but my first two roommates, 25 and 27 and wwII military, flunked out in one semester. I stayed one step ahead of the grim reaper for four years. by '68, when the faculty wanted to drop football grants and get out of the ACC because they believed good football meant u couldn't have a great academic school, the grad rates of the u. were mid-60s and football in mid-50s. trust me, duke hasn't been an elite school all that long. ironically or not, it pretty well coincides with the Coach K era. but it was a conscious decision to restrict football in the '60s by doug knight and his happy band of faculty that led to 45 years of denigration to the point duke FB was easily the worst program in I-A. only eddie cameron saved scholarship football.
my views:
duke can compete nationally and win big in almost every sport in which it is fully funded. if those sports don't win, they almost surely have mediocre, or worse, coaches.
great teams are only a blessing. duke athletes graduate at a rate as high as, and higher than almost anybody including stanford. I don't believe duke gives diplomas away.
who else has had a shane battier, grant hill, jason williams, nate frieman and amanda blumenherst, my personal alltime great duke grad (four-time A-A; twice national champion team; three times nation's top golfer; three times top golf student, etc. had overal GPA of 3.82 in sport with most missed class time of all. frieman, her boyfriend, broke duke's home run record and had 3.84 GPA?
duke recruits the best fencer and cross country athletes in the nation despite lack of team success. great students and championship-contending teams in all duke sports, if, as kevin white wishes, prograns were fully endowed as they are at stanford.
dropping football to D-3 is idiotic and would cost more than having a good team.
check out attendance in spurrier's last year, '89, coming off 7-3-1 season: northwestern 15,220; clemson 22,600; army 25,200; (now people got excited) maryland 38,517; georgia tech 38,621; n.c. state 41,200. won at unc 41-0, tied for ACC title and played in bowl game; spurrier left. dead meat from then until board changed focus and cutcliffe hired.
I think he is the perfect coach for duke and the future is bright. how bright only time will tell.
makes no sense to assume a fully-funded duke sport can't win and win big.
last view -- that's what would truly set duke apart, and it can be done above board and with good leadership.
I can't comment on the tailgating. I did drink beer virtually every day and I was a lousy student. I did, however, earn my degree and it's one I've been proud of for 57 years.

[OldPhiKap]

from someone who graduated from duke in '52, when the grad rates were dismal. at freshman orientation, dean alan manchester said to look to the left, look to the right, and in four years, two of the three of you wouldn't be here. doubt it was actually that bad, but my first two roommates, 25 and 27 and wwII military, flunked out in one semester. I stayed one step ahead of the grim reaper for four years. by '68, when the faculty wanted to drop football grants and get out of the ACC because they believed good football meant u couldn't have a great academic school, the grad rates of the u. were mid-60s and football in mid-50s. trust me, duke hasn't been an elite school all that long. ironically or not, it pretty well coincides with the Coach K era. but it was a conscious decision to restrict football in the '60s by doug knight and his happy band of faculty that led to 45 years of denigration to the point duke FB was easily the worst program in I-A. only eddie cameron saved scholarship football.
my views:
duke can compete nationally and win big in almost every sport in which it is fully funded. if those sports don't win, they almost surely have mediocre, or worse, coaches.
great teams are only a blessing. duke athletes graduate at a rate as high as, and higher than almost anybody including stanford. I don't believe duke gives diplomas away.
who else has had a shane battier, grant hill, jason williams, nate frieman and amanda blumenherst, my personal alltime great duke grad (four-time A-A; twice national champion team; three times nation's top golfer; three times top golf student, etc. had overal GPA of 3.82 in sport with most missed class time of all. frieman, her boyfriend, broke duke's home run record and had 3.84 GPA?
duke recruits the best fencer and cross country athletes in the nation despite lack of team success. great students and championship-contending teams in all duke sports, if, as kevin white wishes, prograns were fully endowed as they are at stanford.
dropping football to D-3 is idiotic and would cost more than having a good team.
check out attendance in spurrier's last year, '89, coming off 7-3-1 season: northwestern 15,220; clemson 22,600; army 25,200; (now people got excited) maryland 38,517; georgia tech 38,621; n.c. state 41,200. won at unc 41-0, tied for ACC title and played in bowl game; spurrier left. dead meat from then until board changed focus and cutcliffe hired.
I think he is the perfect coach for duke and the future is bright. how bright only time will tell.
makes no sense to assume a fully-funded duke sport can't win and win big.
last view -- that's what would truly set duke apart, and it can be done above board and with good leadership.
I can't comment on the tailgating. I did drink beer virtually every day and I was a lousy student. I did, however, earn my degree and it's one I've been proud of for 57 years.

As they say in my church, "Bingo!"

We have the right guy for the job. Cut can get it done, but it takes time to build the depth you need to move to the upper level. We are light years from where we've been lately, and will be moreso in the next few years.

We are (re)building a program, not playing for instant glory. There is no reason that we cannot be in the top half or third of the ACC shortly. And then upwards.

As far as tailgating -- kids will do what kids will do. Wins put them in the seats. That, too, shall come.

[killerleft]

from someone who graduated from duke in '52, when the grad rates were dismal. at freshman orientation, dean alan manchester said to look to the left, look to the right, and in four years, two of the three of you wouldn't be here. doubt it was actually that bad, but my first two roommates, 25 and 27 and wwII military, flunked out in one semester. I stayed one step ahead of the grim reaper for four years. by '68, when the faculty wanted to drop football grants and get out of the ACC because they believed good football meant u couldn't have a great academic school, the grad rates of the u. were mid-60s and football in mid-50s. trust me, duke hasn't been an elite school all that long. ironically or not, it pretty well coincides with the Coach K era. but it was a conscious decision to restrict football in the '60s by doug knight and his happy band of faculty that led to 45 years of denigration to the point duke FB was easily the worst program in I-A. only eddie cameron saved scholarship football.
my views:
duke can compete nationally and win big in almost every sport in which it is fully funded. if those sports don't win, they almost surely have mediocre, or worse, coaches.
great teams are only a blessing. duke athletes graduate at a rate as high as, and higher than almost anybody including stanford. I don't believe duke gives diplomas away.
who else has had a shane battier, grant hill, jason williams, nate frieman and amanda blumenherst, my personal alltime great duke grad (four-time A-A; twice national champion team; three times nation's top golfer; three times top golf student, etc. had overal GPA of 3.82 in sport with most missed class time of all. frieman, her boyfriend, broke duke's home run record and had 3.84 GPA?
duke recruits the best fencer and cross country athletes in the nation despite lack of team success. great students and championship-contending teams in all duke sports, if, as kevin white wishes, prograns were fully endowed as they are at stanford.
dropping football to D-3 is idiotic and would cost more than having a good team.
check out attendance in spurrier's last year, '89, coming off 7-3-1 season: northwestern 15,220; clemson 22,600; army 25,200; (now people got excited) maryland 38,517; georgia tech 38,621; n.c. state 41,200. won at unc 41-0, tied for ACC title and played in bowl game; spurrier left. dead meat from then until board changed focus and cutcliffe hired.
I think he is the perfect coach for duke and the future is bright. how bright only time will tell.
makes no sense to assume a fully-funded duke sport can't win and win big.
last view -- that's what would truly set duke apart, and it can be done above board and with good leadership.
I can't comment on the tailgating. I did drink beer virtually every day and I was a lousy student. I did, however, earn my degree and it's one I've been proud of for 57 years.

I dunno, Bill. Do you really think such optimism can compete with impatience, spending more money, and playing Davidson and Guilford?

Me, too!

[formerdukeathlete]

I think Bill Brill is absolutely correct that Duke can be very competitive in any sport which is fully funded, our coach is competent, and for which we have facilities roughly on par with the competition. Cutcliffe wants an indoor practice facility; Roof wanted Wade redone sans track. The question, and it really is a question imo if you follow this stuff closely, about Cutcliffe is whether he can adjust his recruiting style to what will work best for Duke. Whether we learn from what Duke is able to do in virtually every other sport or learn from Stanford's example, there are highly regarded football prospects all over the country who are also good students and who will consider coming to Duke because of the academics, what else Duke has to offer, and Football. Incidentally, I agree 100% with VaDukie re Tailgate.

[allenmurray]

There's also a part of the tailgate culture that some people have hinted at but no one has really addressed. It's easy to look at tailgate and dismiss it as a ridiculous display of debauchery, but its actually the only social event on campus where students congregate as a group and aren't divided by Greek affiliation, income, race, etc. Everyone is welcome and everyone has fun. It's hard to emphasize how important this is to the student body. It's probably even more of a unifying experience for the student body than K-Ville - as others have pointed out, no more than 1/4 of the student body can see any game in Cameron. That limit doesn't exist in the Blue Zone.

Even as the person who has been most critical of student tailgate behavior I think this is a very good point. If it has a unifying effect among a campus that can be divided into a lot of sub-groups that often don't interact than that is certainly a point in its favor.


Those of you paying attention know that student enthusiasm went up big time under Cutcliffe and is slowly growing. The students will care as much as the team gives them a reason to.

I wish I agreed with this, I really do. I have been paying attention. I've had season tickets for football for 8 years and have rarely missed a game in that time. With the exception of two games that had great attendance I havn't noticed appreciably higher student attendance over the last two years than in the 3 or 4 years previous to that. That is not to say you are wong, perhaps with such a relatively small student body that can get easily lost in the stadium I am wrong, but I really don't feel as though I have seen an increase in either numbers or enthusiasm among students (there certainly has been an increase in both among non-students, with far greater Durham community support).

[throatybeard]

Another problem is that in roughly 1998-99 or so, they moved the students away from the Duke side of the stadium and next to the visitors on the hot nasty side of the stadium. And we have had so many of those idiotic hot-weather noon and 1:30 starts. And the kids are isolated from the rest of the Duke fans and overrun with Pirates, Hokies, or Tigers.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Another problem is that in roughly 1998-99 or so, they moved the students away from the Duke side of the stadium and next to the visitors on the hot nasty side of the stadium. And we have had so many of those idiotic hot-weather noon and 1:30 starts. And the kids are isolated from the rest of the Duke fans and overrun with Pirates, Hokies, or Tigers.

Last year Coach Cutcliffe requested that the student sections be moved back to the home side and they were relocated to sections are 19-23, very close to where they used to be.

[Devilsfan]

I think it was actually a wife of one of the players that thought the moving of the students was very sound and suggested it to Cut along with the moving of the band. Anyway it's a great move. Everything Cut had endorsed has been a good move. The Devils Walk, and the start of cleaning up the "stadium" called Wallace Wade, playing night games, and building a respectable outdoor practice facility, paying his staff ACC money, replicating the Colts unis, having Eli, Peyton and Heath attend a Duke carolina game in Cameron, using the Manings on his tv show, recruiting some in state are just a few more that have worked. He's a smart man and a great coach imo. Hopefully someday we will have reason to rename our stadium Cutcliffe Field.

[throatybeard]

Last year Coach Cutcliffe requested that the student sections be moved back to the home side and they were relocated to sections are 19-23, very close to where they used to be.

Very very glad to hear it.

Cutcliffe may not succeed given the Sisyphean extent of the task, but at least he knows what real football culture looks like. And I hope he succeeds. Not as much for my alma mater, but for his sake, because I admire him. If Duke benefits from it, praise Tom Cruise, Mary and Jeebus.

[bill brill]

about cut's recruiting? what he's doing makes perfect sense to me. dick crum got fired at unc because he recruited midwest, which he knew better, and overlooked carolinas. duke coaches had traditionally ignored north carolina because of academics (they said). kent mcleod, who gets the recruiting names for cut (he has two fulltime assistants and they have an initial list of 2,000 names), says there always will be 20 to 25 kids in-state that duke can recruit. their goal is to get at least eight. they got nine this year (one from the bahamas played at plumlee's school) and eight commits for next season. unc overlooked state this year and lost good kids to state and duke. unless cut's players don't graduate, I think it's the absolute way go go. we'll see how duke stacks up with stanford in the next few years. the one thing I've learned over the years is that good coaches know a bunch more than we do and I don't second guess.

[killerleft]

Very very glad to hear it.

Cutcliffe may not succeed given the Sisyphean extent of the task, but at least he knows what real football culture looks like. And I hope he succeeds. Not as much for my alma mater, but for his sake, because I admire him. If Duke benefits from it, praise Tom Cruise, Mary and Jeebus.

I don't think Coach Cut would have taken the job if it was THAT hard. Thanks for making me look Sisyphus up, though. It is not nice to mess with the gods, but tweaking Tom O'Brien's nose sure is fun!

Seriously, Throaty, you need some Cutcliffe Kool-Aid! Tastes pretty good (burp).:)

[JaMarcus Russell]

I still have a very hard time believing what another poster wrote about Stanford's SAT scores, especially as Harbaugh has brought in some very competitive recruits. Here's a list of the American Football Coaches Association's Academic Achievement Winner. Notice how many times Duke is on the list, and how Stanford is not on the list even once.

1981: Duke*
1982: Notre Dame*
1983: Notre Dame*
1984: Duke & Notre Dame*
1985: Virginia*
1986: Virginia*
1987: Duke*
1988: Notre Dame*
1989: Kentucky*
1990: Duke*
1991: Notre Dame*
1992: Boston College & TCU*
1993: Duke*
1994: Duke*
1995: Boston College, Duke & Wake Forest*
1996: Boston College, Duke & Vanderbilt*
1997: Duke*
1998: Northwestern
1999: Duke
2000: Syracuse
2001: Notre Dame & Vanderbilt
2002: Northwestern
2003: Duke
2004: Boston College & Northwestern
2005: Duke & Northwestern
2006: SMU
2007: Northwestern & Notre Dame

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=897611

Now Stanford did very well in the APR results last year, but so did Duke. From Go Stanford "Stanford registered a score of 986, placing the Cardinal first among Football Bowl Subdivision programs, ahead of the U.S. Naval Academy (979), Duke and Rutgers (977 each), the U.S. Air Force Academy (976), Rice (975), Boston College (972), along with Notre Dame, Northwestern and Miami, Fla. (all at 969)." Therefore, I am sure they will get some academic awards in the near future.

Also, here is another quote about the academics of the Duke football team, this time in Spring 2009. "56 Duke football players achieved a grade point average of 3.0 or better during the spring, 2009 semester as the program posted a cumulative mark of 3.093…23 players recorded a grade point average of 3.5 or better."

Source: http://bluedevilsfootball.com/index.php?page=33#wideSmallGallery-picture%283%29

[PumpkinFunk]

Even as the person who has been most critical of student tailgate behavior I think this is a very good point. If it has a unifying effect among a campus that can be divided into a lot of sub-groups that often don't interact than that is certainly a point in its favor.

This is pretty not true at all. Tailgate, as we know it now in the Blue Zone, is heavily Greek-dominated. Do I know non-greeks that go to tailgate? Yes. But is tailgate split up heavily along Greek lines? Oh yeah it is. Thinking that tailgate gives us any sense of unity is bogus. It gives us a sense of getting trashed early in the day and then sleeping through the game, forgetting that football is the main event, and not the tailgate. Tailgate is out of hand and the administration is finally cracking down on it now that the football team is more successful.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

This is pretty not true at all. Tailgate, as we know it now in the Blue Zone, is heavily Greek-dominated. Do I know non-greeks that go to tailgate? Yes. But is tailgate split up heavily along Greek lines? Oh yeah it is. Thinking that tailgate gives us any sense of unity is bogus. It gives us a sense of getting trashed early in the day and then sleeping through the game, forgetting that football is the main event, and not the tailgate. Tailgate is out of hand and the administration is finally cracking down on it now that the football team is more successful.

On a different note, PumpkinFunk, I'm a real fan of the band! The Duke band has one of the best drum cadences around! That's one of my favorite tracks on the band CD. I am that rare person who loves a marching band arrangement of "Louie, Louie" and "Hey, Baby!"

See you at the Devil Walk!

[YourLandlord]

This is pretty not true at all. Tailgate, as we know it now in the Blue Zone, is heavily Greek-dominated. Do I know non-greeks that go to tailgate? Yes. But is tailgate split up heavily along Greek lines? Oh yeah it is. Thinking that tailgate gives us any sense of unity is bogus. It gives us a sense of getting trashed early in the day and then sleeping through the game, forgetting that football is the main event, and not the tailgate. Tailgate is out of hand and the administration is finally cracking down on it now that the football team is more successful.

a) you do realize the whole tailgate "tradition" was started by the lacrosse team (and other athletic teams) about 6 years ago, right? Greeks then just played copy cat.

b) many many many non-greeks go to tailgate. anyone can feel comfortable there.

c) The band is great, and I can understand if there is some frustration of not being able to tailgate on game days.

[Jarhead]

This is pretty not true at all. Tailgate, as we know it now in the Blue Zone, is heavily Greek-dominated. Do I know non-greeks that go to tailgate? Yes. But is tailgate split up heavily along Greek lines? Oh yeah it is. Thinking that tailgate gives us any sense of unity is bogus. It gives us a sense of getting trashed early in the day and then sleeping through the game, forgetting that football is the main event, and not the tailgate. Tailgate is out of hand and the administration is finally cracking down on it now that the football team is more successful.
Before the VaTech game I noticed that the student tailgate lot had cars parked in it instead of sx%& faced students. Either they were dumped somewhere out in the Duke Forest, or they did not have their party. Either way, I was glad that the embarrassment of that stupid event was out of sight. I often think that we should bring back the draft, but a better idea would be to require all high school and college aged kids have to go home or return to their dorms every evening when the street lights come on.

[newBlue23]

Before the VaTech game I noticed that the student tailgate lot had cars parked in it instead of sx%& faced students. Either they were dumped somewhere out in the Duke Forest, or they did not have their party. Either way, I was glad that the embarrassment of that stupid event was out of sight. I often think that we should bring back the draft, but a better idea would be to require all high school and college aged kids have to go home or return to their dorms every evening when the street lights come on.

The only reason that the tailgate lot had cars was because most students were off campus because of Fall Break so no student tailgate was planned. Sorry to ruin your excitement.

[allenmurray]

This is pretty not true at all. Tailgate, as we know it now in the Blue Zone, is heavily Greek-dominated. Do I know non-greeks that go to tailgate? Yes. But is tailgate split up heavily along Greek lines? Oh yeah it is. Thinking that tailgate gives us any sense of unity is bogus. It gives us a sense of getting trashed early in the day and then sleeping through the game, forgetting that football is the main event, and not the tailgate. Tailgate is out of hand and the administration is finally cracking down on it now that the football team is more successful.

That is why I said if. I wondered whether it really does have a unifying effect (and if so why getting drunk at 9:00 in the morning is the best way to unify divergent student groups).

[sagegrouse]

... Either way, I was glad that the embarrassment of that stupid event was out of sight. ...

... I often think that we should bring back the draft, but a better idea would be to require all high school and college aged kids have to go home or return to their dorms every evening when the street lights come on.



If Andy Rooney, who must be over 90, ever retires from CBS, I think we have found his replacement.

And BTW, Rooney, who was in the Army during WWII (where he met Walter Cronkite), probably agrees with the Jarhead's opinions.

sagegrouse

[Jarhead]

If Andy Rooney, who must be over 90, ever retires from CBS, I think we have found his replacement.

And BTW, Rooney, who was in the Army during WWII (where he met Walter Cronkite), probably agrees with the Jarhead's opinions.

sagegrouse

I guess that I forgot to attach a big grin to my post to show it's tongue in cheek nature. On the other hand, I don't see any redeeming qualities in those so called tailgates. It would be nice to have a PPB to discuss issues like this.

[Indoor66]

I guess that I forgot to attach a big grin to my post to show it's tongue in cheek nature. On the other hand, I don't see any redeeming qualities in those so called tailgates. It would be nice to have a PPB to discuss issues like this.

How subtle, Jarhead. :)

[Brian913]

I still have a very hard time believing what another poster wrote about Stanford's SAT scores, especially as Harbaugh has brought in some very competitive recruits. Here's a list of the American Football Coaches Association's Academic Achievement Winner. Notice how many times Duke is on the list, and how Stanford is not on the list even once.

1981: Duke*
1982: Notre Dame*
1983: Notre Dame*
1984: Duke & Notre Dame*
1985: Virginia*
1986: Virginia*
1987: Duke*
1988: Notre Dame*
1989: Kentucky*
1990: Duke*
1991: Notre Dame*
1992: Boston College & TCU*
1993: Duke*
1994: Duke*
1995: Boston College, Duke & Wake Forest*
1996: Boston College, Duke & Vanderbilt*
1997: Duke*
1998: Northwestern
1999: Duke
2000: Syracuse
2001: Notre Dame & Vanderbilt
2002: Northwestern
2003: Duke
2004: Boston College & Northwestern
2005: Duke & Northwestern
2006: SMU
2007: Northwestern & Notre Dame

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=897611

Now Stanford did very well in the APR results last year, but so did Duke. From Go Stanford "Stanford registered a score of 986, placing the Cardinal first among Football Bowl Subdivision programs, ahead of the U.S. Naval Academy (979), Duke and Rutgers (977 each), the U.S. Air Force Academy (976), Rice (975), Boston College (972), along with Notre Dame, Northwestern and Miami, Fla. (all at 969)." Therefore, I am sure they will get some academic awards in the near future.

Also, here is another quote about the academics of the Duke football team, this time in Spring 2009. "56 Duke football players achieved a grade point average of 3.0 or better during the spring, 2009 semester as the program posted a cumulative mark of 3.093…23 players recorded a grade point average of 3.5 or better."

Source: http://bluedevilsfootball.com/index.php?page=33#wideSmallGallery-picture%283%29

What previous poster have missed in the "100% of Stanford players score over 1000" on the SATs is that some don't They take ACTs.
From Peterson's Stanford's students score:

Test Scores
SAT critical reading scores over 500 100%
SAT math scores over 500 100%
SAT writing scores over 500 100%
ACT scores over 18 100%
SAT critical reading scores over 600 92%
SAT math scores over 600 95%
SAT writing scores over 600 93%
ACT scores over 24 99%
SAT critical reading scores over 700 57%
SAT math scores over 700 66%
SAT writing scores over 700 63%
ACT scores over 30 77%

Since ACT score of 18 compares to about 870 and 24 compares to 1110, there are a few people falling between those numbers. I would bet that some athletes fall in the bottom end of that range.

These things change every year depending on the athletes attracted to the school. I remember UCLA made a big thing in the late 90s because their players had better SATs than Stanford's.

And Stanford does have a special admissions process for athletes. All recruited athletes have their admission decided by the Director of Admissions personally, the same as at almost every college.

[sagegrouse]

What previous poster have missed in the "100% of Stanford players score over 1000" on the SATs is that some don't They take ACTs.
From Peterson's Stanford's students score:

Test Scores
SAT critical reading scores over 500 100%
SAT math scores over 500 100%
SAT writing scores over 500 100%
ACT scores over 18 100%
SAT critical reading scores over 600 92%
SAT math scores over 600 95%
SAT writing scores over 600 93%
ACT scores over 24 99%
SAT critical reading scores over 700 57%
SAT math scores over 700 66%
SAT writing scores over 700 63%
ACT scores over 30 77%

Since ACT score of 18 compares to about 870 and 24 compares to 1110, there are a few people falling between those numbers. I would bet that some athletes fall in the bottom end of that range.

These things change every year depending on the athletes attracted to the school. I remember UCLA made a big thing in the late 90s because their players had better SATs than Stanford's.

And Stanford does have a special admissions process for athletes. All recruited athletes have their admission decided by the Director of Admissions personally, the same as at almost every college.

I don't know the practice at Stanford, but not all elite schools include the SAT scores of scholarship athletes in their reports. Duke always has; others in the past have not.

I suspect that, with greater visibility into things like this, that Stanford does report athletes SAT/ACT results.

sagegrouse

sagegrouse