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SushiChef
09-30-2009, 04:36 PM
http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/k-ville-enough-already

The solution he proposes is essentially like stepping back 25 years and seeing what evolves (hoping the outcome is different than what we have now).


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein

Wander
09-30-2009, 04:51 PM
I don't agree with getting rid of Kville, but he's right that there's a lot wrong with the system. For example, it's basically completely random whether the Head Line Monitor is any good or not, and too often the first tent(s) end up having too many people in them who - I'll say it nicely - don't represent Duke very well. Making things simpler would probably help.

Also, anything by Fanaroff is worth taking seriously.

JasonEvans
09-30-2009, 04:59 PM
So here’s what I’m saying: Toss K-ville and its rules, and replace it with a line. Everyone stands in line. Two hours before game time, you walk into the stadium in order. Get there whenever you want, but once you get there, you have to stay there. If it’s absolutely necessary, let everyone in line have a partner, so that only one of the two people has to be there at a given time. But that’s it.

What is so blasphemous about that? That is pretty much how it worked in my day (1986-89, we sorta invented camping out). I dunno about having only 1 friend, but I could see limiting it to 4 or 5 friends.

I am not saying I am for this or against it, but I do agree that the extent of the rules involving Kville seem a bit out of hand.

-Jason "blazindw needs to chime in-- he's a former head line monitor, IIRC" Evans

hurleyfor3
09-30-2009, 05:02 PM
Geez, I thought the rules had become overly bureaucratic in the early 1990s. For the record, I think they were:

* up to 10 people in a single tent
* one person from the tent has to be in the camp-out area at all times
* everyone has to make three out of five "tent checks" done at random in the 72 hours before tipoff
* if you had a class during one of the five checks, too bad, but they usually didn't check when most people had classes
* No portable generators or anything that requires an electrical outlet. Otherwise anything goes in your tent.

chrisheery
09-30-2009, 05:04 PM
I actually understand where this author is coming from. When I was a student, I found the rules silly and arbitrary and refused to camp out as a result. I say that even though I had looked forward to camping out when I decided to go to Duke.

The other element that always bothered me about kville was the lack of true basketball fans in atendance. I always felt like it was more just a place for people to connect who had little else to do socially. It kinda bothered me that half the people in the student section did not know what a screen roll or zone defense was.

Anyway, I think there should be reform, but I have no idea how it would be done.

Mike Corey
09-30-2009, 05:08 PM
Also, anything by Fanaroff is worth taking seriously.

Agreed. He is a very thoughtful and talented guy.

Don't know if I agree with deregulating KVille, but I do believe that simplifying the process would not be a bad thing.

And for what it's worth, BlazinDW was a terrific HLM. Looking forward to his thoughts.

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-30-2009, 05:20 PM
Change is an essential element of being vital. If the procedure for admitting students into men's games changes into something entirely different than the current form, that's not blasphemous. It's a reflection of the normal process of evolving over time.

juise
09-30-2009, 05:20 PM
And for what it's worth, BlazinDW was a terrific HLM. Looking forward to his thoughts.

As a classmate of his, I agree. 2004 was also the last time that Duke was in the Final Four. Coincidence?

;)

Duvall
09-30-2009, 05:23 PM
I'm not sure the columnist is wrong, and the column certainly isn't blasphemous, but I'm not looking forward to inevitable round of Grant Hill pint-pulling sure to come in this thread.

BlueintheFace
09-30-2009, 05:30 PM
K-ville needs to be simplified, but Alex is basically suggesting an outdated method. The reason we have what we have today is because a long time ago there literally used to be a simple line (what Alex is suggesting) and it became far more chaotic than today's version of K-ville.

lifelongdevil
09-30-2009, 05:34 PM
As a current undergrad, I don't agree with everything that the Chronicle article says, but his ideas are moving in the correct direction. I can also say almost all of my sports loving friends are i favor of heavy deregulation on kville. The majority of those at games now are not the most diehard sports/Duke fans, a fact of which all undergrads are aware.

From what I've heard and seen personally this years line monitor is a big step in the right direction, with some productive and progressive ideas. I'm told there are (yet unannounced) significant changes in the line process for normal games, relating to group size, arrival time, provision of food and beer.

On a related note, Wojo spoke to a frat on campus last night about there being an emphasis on trying to get attendance back up especially among fraternities and groups. (this is second hand). apparently he mentioned the glory days of cameron's past, throwing batteries, condoms..less politically correct times saying "we want that atmosphere, just without the throwing."

SushiChef
09-30-2009, 05:35 PM
I don't agree with getting rid of Kville, but he's right that there's a lot wrong with the system. For example, it's basically completely random whether the Head Line Monitor is any good or not, and too often the first tent(s) end up having too many people in them who - I'll say it nicely - don't represent Duke very well. Making things simpler would probably help.

Also, anything by Fanaroff is worth taking seriously.

I agree that there's something wrong with the system. However, simply proposing that we go back to the way it was 20 years ago makes no sense. Inevitably situations will arise resulting in new rules and eventually things will end up where we are now.

Also, I wouldn't take anyone from Maryland seriously.

SushiChef
09-30-2009, 05:43 PM
I'm not sure the columnist is wrong, and the column certainly isn't blasphemous, but I'm not looking forward to inevitable round of Grant Hill pint-pulling sure to come in this thread.

Perhaps blasphemous was a poor choice of words. Although K-ville is named after someone whom many revere as a god like figure.

Duvall
09-30-2009, 05:45 PM
Perhaps blasphemous was a poor choice of words. Although K-ville is named after someone whom many revere as a god like figure.

Well, I wasn't just making the literal objection. There's nothing at all unusual about complaining about K-ville; such complaints are almost as much of a Duke fan tradition as K-ville itself.

bigj4194
09-30-2009, 05:46 PM
One thing that makes me mad about this article is the guy writing it is a 3rd year grad student who also happened to do his undergrad at duke. from experiences i have had with him he is just arrogant and hates the fact that K-ville exists and he can't get the seats he wants. just my $0.02

lifelongdevil
09-30-2009, 06:01 PM
One thing that makes me mad about this article is the guy writing it is a 3rd year grad student who also happened to do his undergrad at duke. from experiences i have had with him he is just arrogant and hates the fact that K-ville exists and he can't get the seats he wants. just my $0.02

maybe thats because you were Head Line Monitor last year? kind of a conflict of interest. He was an undergrad, he knows the system. From my experience the kid is a real sports fan as well as a duke fan. Don't make character arguments just because you dont like his point. All else aside, Im just glad you're not head line monitor anymore.

zingit
09-30-2009, 07:03 PM
K-ville needs to be simplified, but Alex is basically suggesting an outdated method. The reason we have what we have today is because a long time ago there literally used to be a simple line (what Alex is suggesting) and it became far more chaotic than today's version of K-ville.

Exactly. K-ville IS a "line." What happens if someone gets in line in December? And brings a sleeping bag and tent? Then we have K-ville all over again. I guess you could make a rule saying no one can sleep in K-ville. And have the police enforce it instead of line monitors. Still, Fanaroff didn't spell out any of this in his article.

I also think that line monitors are sort of a necessary evil, because without them people could cut in line, and that would really tick me off if I'd been standing in line for a long time.

I agree that the system needs reform and simplification, but this columnist didn't seem like he'd thought it through very much.

yancem
09-30-2009, 07:13 PM
I'm not sure the columnist is wrong, and the column certainly isn't blasphemous, but I'm not looking forward to inevitable round of Grant Hill pint-pulling sure to come in this thread.

Grant Hill pint-pulling???????????

JBDuke
09-30-2009, 08:04 PM
I was the Head Line Monitor for the '88-'89 season - before there was an official title, even. I was at Duke from '85-'89 and was a line monitor for the last 3 seasons. Over the course of my time at Duke, I saw the beginnings of the line monitor program and the start of a system of rules to try and control the lines and the tenting. I was even responsible for adding a few of them.

With the caveat that I haven't stood in a Cameron line for more more than 20 years now (ouch!), I don't endorse Alex Fanaroff's proposal in the linked column.

A little history may help...

The '85-'86 season was a watershed for Duke basketball, as many of you know. While Duke fans had long established a reputation for their passionate creativity, a couple of factors came about in the mid 80's to make crowd control a problem.

First and perhaps foremost was Duke's burgeoning basketball success. That '86 team represented the first team at Duke in several years to be ranked in the top 5 to start the season, and there was a growing excitement about Duke basketball among most of the student population - and not just the core group of "Crazies" that had given Cameron its reputation. Now, almost all of a sudden, basketball wasn't just a great sport to watch at Duke, it was an "in" thing. Folks that weren't basketball fans began attending in larger numbers. Duke was a "hot" college, and Duke basketball was the "hot" activity. (Second only to the Wednesday night kegs in Stonehenge, but I digress...)

A second factor was the explosive growth in TV coverage of college basketball games. Duke fans these days have it easy in at least one respect - it's easy to follow the team, because almost every game is on national TV. Back in the '80's , this wasn't yet the case. As ESPN took off during this time, college basketball broadcasts went along for the ride. Since Duke was now a program of national importance, the networks were on campus a lot. Folks that were at Duke back in the day will remember the Washington game in 1985 - in part because it was one of the first Duke games in Cameron to be broadcast nationally in a long time. Now, it's commonplace.

Duke's TV exposure has brought a lot of good things to the school, but it's come at a price. Back in the day (I sound like my old man, now.), dressing up for a game meant putting on a Duke T-shirt. The folks that painted themselves up in an effort to get on TV were derided as "media sluts". We even chanted and pointed at them before the games. The media sluts tended to go for the seats that got them the best chance of being shown during crowd shots around timeouts and half-time, so they didn't get in the way of those of us that wanted the prime mid-court seats, thank goodness. But they did take up seats. Now, you have more folks that want to be in games in Cameron, because they want to be on TV.

IMO, these two elements combined, starting largely during the '86 season, to create a great demand for getting into Cameron and getting into particular seats. Lines for games started earlier and got very long, and there was essentially no control over it.

It came to a head in the line for the Carolina game in March of 1986. It was the last home game for the '86 team, it was the Carolina game, it was #1 (Duke) vs. #3 (UNC), it was nationally televised, and it was for first place in the ACC regular season, and therefore the #1 seed in the ACC Tourney. It was kind of a big game. It was the first game for which a large number of folks decided to overnight in line - whether in tents or just standing around. In those days, in anticipation of the doors opening 90 minutes prior to the game, the line would compress from a bunch of folks standing around casually to a densely-packed crowd reminescent of a New York subway at rush-hour. This phenomena typically happened 20-40 minutes prior to the doors opening. For the Carolina game that year, it happened about six hours before the doors opened.

It was a miserable experience. Claustrophobic folks had to get out of line. Folks got uncomfortably crushed. I had one friend that had trouble breathing. I had another that got bruised from being forced up against the chains that lined the sidewalk. To my knowledge, no one got seriously injured, but the chances of it happening were not trivial.

In addition, lots of other problems that had been minor before became more significant. Folks cut in line. Friends "saved" spots in line for their buddies. One fraternity had their freshman hold spaces for the entire frat - 30 guys showed up that morning and jumped into the line. At the very front, I think the tenters defended their positions with tooth and nail and the occasional butter knife lifted from the Oak Room. It was not pretty.

So, for the next season, rules for lining up started to appear, and the line monitoring program really got going. By the time my senior year rolled around, and I was leading the line monitors, we had several rules in place, mostly to combat abuses of the system that had cropped up in the couple of years since we got started. Things like limiting the number of folks in a tent to 10 or so. (In my junior year, a frat had put up one tent and listed 40 or so people as "members" of that tent.) Line monitors kept track of which tents showed up in which order, and what students were linked to what tent. We held onto student IDs if someone needed to hop out of line to grab food or take a bathroom break. We tried to keep things civil. I made sure that the monitors I picked had enough gumption to stand up to anybody, just in case some jerk tried to butt in line. I think it worked pretty well. Could it have been improved? Of course.

In the years since, to the extent that I've followed it, things have gotten more and more complex, and I can understand why there is confusion. Simplifying the process may be a good idea. But I think some sort of line monitoring is needed to prevent a repeat of past incidents. Lining up "in a regular old kindergarten line with a line-leader and a caboose" as Fanaroff suggests is just a bad idea.

Sorry about the ramble, but I thought some perspective on how line monitoring got started would add some perspective...

throatybeard
09-30-2009, 08:28 PM
Here's an idea:

1) Old farts like us who have no stake in this, let's shut up.

2) Let the kids handle it the way they want.

I don't know if there's anything in universe lamer than people who are 24-90 arguing about how people 18-23 should do something over which they have sole control. The kids elect student government, which handles the tenting policy.

I look forward to the first November thread acting like the world is ending because the Ugrads didn't fill their section on a Tuesday exhibition versus East Athletes in Action Turnip State. Not.

airowe
09-30-2009, 09:10 PM
JB,

Thanks for your post. I learned more about K-Ville in that post than I did reading the Kville Tales.

I have a question for you Cameron veterans. I've heard it said a couple places that "Airball" was started at Cameron. Anyone know if this is true?

Duvall
09-30-2009, 09:30 PM
I have a question for you Cameron veterans. I've heard it said a couple places that "Airball" was started at Cameron. Anyone know if this is true?

It is widely claimed that the "Airball" chant originated during the Duke-UNC game on February 24, 1979, when UNC's Chick Yonakor missed a shot badly in the first half, one of only two FG attempts by Carolina in the half. Duke led 7-0 at halftime, and went on to win 47-40.

It is unclear whether this is actually true. (The part about the chant.)

NovaScotian
09-30-2009, 11:15 PM
Exactly. K-ville IS a "line." What happens if someone gets in line in December? And brings a sleeping bag and tent? Then we have K-ville all over again. I guess you could make a rule saying no one can sleep in K-ville. And have the police enforce it instead of line monitors. Still, Fanaroff didn't spell out any of this in his article.

I also think that line monitors are sort of a necessary evil, because without them people could cut in line, and that would really tick me off if I'd been standing in line for a long time.

I agree that the system needs reform and simplification, but this columnist didn't seem like he'd thought it through very much.

you're absolutely right - he's just offering the simplest version of the current rules - a version that is incomplete because each year kids get upset about things like too many tents or too many tarps or whatever, leading to the new rules. this article, like many others by this columnist, wasn't thought through very well other than to calculate the attention it draws.

Johnboy
09-30-2009, 11:20 PM
It is widely claimed that the "Airball" chant originated during the Duke-UNC game on February 24, 1979, when UNC's Chick Yonakor missed a shot badly in the first half, one of only two FG attempts by Carolina in the half. Duke led 7-0 at halftime, and went on to win 47-40.

It is unclear whether this is actually true. (The part about the chant.)

The reason the chant sounds as it does is that when Dean (or anyone else) used to play a delay offense, crowds would chant "Bo-ring". So the story goes, when Yonaker shot his airball, the crowd chanted "Air-ball" in the same tone. IIRC, it was allegedly James (the originator of this very SBBS software) who started the chant.

As for the topic at hand, I agree with Throaty, though I enjoyed JB Duke's post immensely.

lpd1982
10-01-2009, 01:23 AM
I can't find the link, but there was an article in The Chronicle on September 24th on some of the proposed changes. Sounds like an effort is underway to address some of the current challenges. Short of doing away with K-ville as today's columnist put forth, I wish the author had made practical suggestions. It's easy to take shots at reform, harder to make it happen.

LanceChef
10-01-2009, 10:36 AM
I thought that this Fanaroff column was more interesting than some of his other work. A while back on the grad student side, Viking Guy and Mullet Man got their prime spot through showing up early, waiting, and enforcing an organic no-cut policy. Nowadays, it's better to get on an usher's good side, have them put your jacket in the first two rows, and show up at tip, defeating the purpose of standing in line. This change has caused many grad students to give up on lining up early as it's no longer the most effective method for a good spot.

This is relevant as the alternatives Fanaroff mentioned likely give the undergrads similar pause to enduring K-Ville. That is, why camp out all season when you can try for a blue tent, or why walk up when others will get priority in the line? While the suggestion to eliminate tenting was a "baby with the bathwater" approach, perhaps a solution that would be palatable to all is the elimination of alternate ways of entering the line (blue tenting, senior day, etc.). Have a K-Ville with a start date mandated by Duke Athletics, a walk-up line for all games, and have line monitors that exist only to keep track of line order. This way the die-hards can get the front rows, Duke can keep the photo-ops, other students know that they can get into ANY game that's not full, and that all of those in K-Ville know that they're following the only method to get in the lower bleachers.

throatybeard
10-01-2009, 11:49 AM
I thought that this Fanaroff column was more interesting than some of his other work. A while back on the grad student side, Viking Guy and Mullet Man got their prime spot through showing up early, waiting, and enforcing an organic no-cut policy.

This was a lot easier for our group to do, though, than it would be for undergrads to do.

Most of the grad/prof students showed up just a little while before the doors opened. Graduate school is a job, and by and large, people don't have time to tent. So we were really only competing with about three other hardcore groups who would show up, I dunno, 6 hours prior to tip for regular games,

By 2003 and 2004, we basically had an unspoken gentlemen's agreement that as long as the usual suspects were pretty much in the first 30 or so people in line, the Phalanx would stand right under the South goal, one group of law students to camera left by the ushers, and the other group of law students to camera right. This would allow Ed and Jeff to lead cheers. Mind you--we did our best not to violate the unspoken agreement, showing up as early as was feasible, and a few times (Maryland back when they mattered, UNC), we'd spend 3 nights outside in anticipation that the others were going to do 2.

The other thing about the grad student line is that for the biggest games, there's also an agreement, informal at first and the policed by the ushers starting on gameday morning, that it is absolutely OK for people who have been in line the previous night to disappear, and y'know, go to work, come back, and reassume their place in line. I skipped a few classes during UGrad to stay in line. You can't do that when you're, like, the teacher.

So for the above reasons, I really don't think the grad line and the Ugrad line are terribly comparable. In the grad line, the demand for the top seats is lower, so there haven't arisen as many rules and enforcement thereof.

brianl
10-01-2009, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the history lesson JB Duke.

I always wondered some of the details leading up to the creation of K-Ville.

cspan37421
10-02-2009, 07:25 AM
Looks like I was at Duke same years as JB Duke and Jason Evans. JB's history is an awesome reminder of what led me, a football fan mostly from big 10 country, to become a basketball fan in rather short order!

Tenting was generally unnecessary during those years, except standing out several hours in advance was necessary for the UNC home games. I did so in a cold drizzle in, IIRC, the spring of 1987 for Tommy Amaker's last UNC game. It did not turn out well for our guys. But it was pretty miserable - so I can see the appeal of tents and shelter.

I'm not sure I understand how much time a tenter actually spends in the tent and what academic sacrifices are made for the sake of seeing a basketball game in person, but it is hard - at a glance - not to infer that the sports (particularly Duke BB) is wagging the academic dog. And although I'm sure there's a more sensible solution to allocating space inside Cameron, they also want to allocate spaces based on dedication to the team, which right now is measured by time spent in line (or whatever passes for that under the rules). Finding a sensible yet fair way to do this is indeed the job of those currently at the school. But if I were there, I'd want the pendulum swung back a little bit away from the view that "I'm here for basketball, the education is a $40k (now $50k) extra." I figure if you only want BB go follow an AAU or NBA team.

blazindw
10-02-2009, 08:34 AM
Sorry I'm late to this thread, my bread and butter topic. Thanks for pointing this out to me Jason...I've been working hard on the new temporary job and haven't had a day off since I started over a week ago. 12 hour days everyday will get to you, but as a result I haven't been on DBR as much during the day as I usually am.

JB's history lesson is very good and is pretty much what had been told to me by some old Mirecretians who were the first people to camp out for a game. When I became HLM in 2003, I found it awesome that Mirecourt had started K-Ville and that I was the first resident to become HLM. I also had a great sense of K-Ville, having spent my entire 4 years there (2 tenting, 2 as line monitor and HLM). But enough about me, back to the subject at hand.

For some reason, this article will not open at work, but I'm sure it is about the new HLM's plans to try and reconsider the rigor of camping out for basketball games, or, in a gung-ho attempt to freak out Duke Basketball fans everywhere, suggest that K-Ville shouldn't exist. Of course, I think that K-Ville is an integral part of the Duke experience. I knew I wanted to be HLM from the moment I visited campus for Blue Devil Days when I was a senior in high school. I took that job seriously and it is still the best experience I've ever had....not to mention it was a ton of fun.

The most important thing of the K-Ville spirit is that community unity is what drives it. I truly believe that things went so well for the most part while I was there is because everyone was involved...and I'm not just referring to the students and the line monitors (who were an awesome group and really worked wonders). I worked with the Chronicle to advertise for games (and especially Mr. Corey, who was always up at 2am waiting for the numbers from wristband distribution so it would make the morning headlines and always found time and space to assist me in whatever I needed). Juise was great in doing things with EA Sports while I was there and organizing a couple of events. The ushers, the event staff, the cheerleaders, the Dancing Devils, the band, the grad students (especially Throaty, Mullet, Viking Guy and Baldy)...even D.C. and the team and the mascot. I worked with them all to ensure the experience was great for everyone. Was it perfect? No. But together, we made it work. Everyone vibed off each other and if I was doing something that made things more difficult for another group, we worked it out. I truly felt (and still do) that without each one of those groups on the same page, things didn't function as smoothly. As a result, we had an excellent year, and it still warms my heart if I was even a small part of someone having the time of their lives in K-Ville and Cameron that year.

In my opinion, that sense of community has dissipated over the past few years. It's not the fault of the HLMs that succeeded me, nor is it the fault of the students. It's just the way it has become. Communities change every year with the ebb and flow, the coming and going that is college. Every year, a lot of experienced students leave and new kids come in...it is then the new seniors that usually step up and lead the way. That's how it worked for us. My class had a ton of seniors still involved in K-Ville all the way up to the final game against UNC that year. That was instrumental in bringing the freshman into the mix and getting them to love being in K-Ville as much as we had over our 4 years. From what I've seen, that's not the case anymore. It's usually the freshmen learning off the few sophomores that are still there and the line monitors.

I've spoken with the new HLM (he and I are actually good friends) and I know that he has that sense of community that he wants to rebuild. However, it will be much different for him, as the student body is far different from when I was there or some of you were there. People study more...they're involved in more things. That's just the way things have evolved. However, I think that he is on the right track. K-Ville used to be the center of campus life for 2 months each year, and especially during personal checks. It used to be a place that people wanted to go just to hang out, not dreading when it's their turn in the lineup to man their tent. It will take some changes to get back to that, but I think that it can work if everyone there jumps on board and works together.

Sorry that it was so long...as you can imagine, I'm still married to this stuff! Once I'm able to read the article, I can also comment further on the writer's ideas.

Kedsy
10-02-2009, 11:37 AM
A little history may help...

The '85-'86 season was a watershed for Duke basketball, as many of you know. While Duke fans had long established a reputation for their passionate creativity, a couple of factors came about in the mid 80's to make crowd control a problem.

First and perhaps foremost was Duke's burgeoning basketball success. That '86 team represented the first team at Duke in several years to be ranked in the top 5 to start the season, and there was a growing excitement about Duke basketball among most of the student population - and not just the core group of "Crazies" that had given Cameron its reputation. Now, almost all of a sudden, basketball wasn't just a great sport to watch at Duke, it was an "in" thing. Folks that weren't basketball fans began attending in larger numbers. Duke was a "hot" college, and Duke basketball was the "hot" activity. (Second only to the Wednesday night kegs in Stonehenge, but I digress...)

A second factor was the explosive growth in TV coverage of college basketball games. Duke fans these days have it easy in at least one respect - it's easy to follow the team, because almost every game is on national TV. Back in the '80's , this wasn't yet the case. As ESPN took off during this time, college basketball broadcasts went along for the ride. Since Duke was now a program of national importance, the networks were on campus a lot. Folks that were at Duke back in the day will remember the Washington game in 1985 - in part because it was one of the first Duke games in Cameron to be broadcast nationally in a long time. Now, it's commonplace.

Duke's TV exposure has brought a lot of good things to the school, but it's come at a price. Back in the day (I sound like my old man, now.), dressing up for a game meant putting on a Duke T-shirt. The folks that painted themselves up in an effort to get on TV were derided as "media sluts". We even chanted and pointed at them before the games. The media sluts tended to go for the seats that got them the best chance of being shown during crowd shots around timeouts and half-time, so they didn't get in the way of those of us that wanted the prime mid-court seats, thank goodness. But they did take up seats. Now, you have more folks that want to be in games in Cameron, because they want to be on TV.

IMO, these two elements combined, starting largely during the '86 season, to create a great demand for getting into Cameron and getting into particular seats. Lines for games started earlier and got very long, and there was essentially no control over it.

It came to a head in the line for the Carolina game in March of 1986. It was the last home game for the '86 team, it was the Carolina game, it was #1 (Duke) vs. #3 (UNC), it was nationally televised, and it was for first place in the ACC regular season, and therefore the #1 seed in the ACC Tourney. It was kind of a big game. It was the first game for which a large number of folks decided to overnight in line - whether in tents or just standing around. In those days, in anticipation of the doors opening 90 minutes prior to the game, the line would compress from a bunch of folks standing around casually to a densely-packed crowd reminescent of a New York subway at rush-hour. This phenomena typically happened 20-40 minutes prior to the doors opening. For the Carolina game that year, it happened about six hours before the doors opened.

It was a miserable experience. Claustrophobic folks had to get out of line. Folks got uncomfortably crushed. I had one friend that had trouble breathing. I had another that got bruised from being forced up against the chains that lined the sidewalk. To my knowledge, no one got seriously injured, but the chances of it happening were not trivial.


I was at Duke from 1978 to 1982. For me it started with Duke ranked pre-season #1 my freshman year and ended with the team going 10-17 in Coach K's second season. The very first game ever nationally televised in Cameron was during my freshman year (Marquette, for those who care), and interest in the team was high. Many of the same factors JB Duke mentions were in place for us as well, although not nearly as many of the games were televised.

We didn't have tents, however, we had a line. A handful of students sat in line for days (including James of later DBR fame), but for most of us it meant about a three hour wait for the lesser December games, about a six hour wait for ACC games, and generally overnight for the Carolina game. (I think one year my group stayed out two nights for the UNC game, it may have been the 7-0 game, and one of the nights was pouring rain -- not pleasant at all, but worth it.) For the most part, once you got in line you stayed in line. If someone was with a group and they had to go to the bathroom or something, it was accepted. Our friends brought us food and admittedly we often let foodbuyers and girlfriends come into line with us three or so hours before the game. But if someone tried to just cut in line, they had to deal with the wrath of the mob, so it rarely happened. Pledges often saved spaces for fraternity brothers, but it was a source of much grumbling from the many independents in the line.

My brother was at Duke from 1985 to 1989, during the time JB Duke described when the tent city was just beginning. I used to laugh at him that they needed tents, and I used to think it was stupid that people put up a tent and left it there for essentially the whole season. I thought the system was unneccessary and made no sense, but in retrospect that may have been because it was so radically different from the system I was used to.

In the end, I think it's what you're comfortable with, and each year the student body is different. Things change, and so long as our passion for Duke basketball isn't one of them then, speaking only for myself, I'm OK with that.

JasonEvans
10-02-2009, 11:57 AM
JB's history lesson is very good and is pretty much what had been told to me by some old Mirecretians who were the first people to camp out for a game. When I became HLM in 2003, I found it awesome that Mirecourt had started K-Ville...

Really? I am trying to remember who the first folks to pitch a tent were. It happened in 1986, I think. There were a fair number of tents in 1987, IIRC. Me and my group of friends (who were one of the first 3-5 folks in line every game from 1986-89) were in full-fledged, season-long tent mode by our junior year.

The guy who was the king of being first in line was a dude named Andy Lux. If memory serves, he was a member of the crew team. He had this folding chair and no matter how early you went out to line, even weeks in advance, Andy was sitting there in his chair. Dude was an animal!

I recall one year a frat told their pledges their only job was to beat Andy out there for the Carolina game. The pledges failed.

I think the tents and the party got named KVille my junior year, 1988. By then it was kinda a non-stop party for a week or so leading up to the Carolina game. I recall waking up one morning, rolling out of the tent and seeing a piece of paper stuck onto a branch with hand-writing saying, "Krzyzwskiville" on it. I am not sure who came up with that name, but it was a good one.

--Jason "memories... ahhhh" Evans

The Gordog
10-02-2009, 01:41 PM
Really? I am trying to remember who the first folks to pitch a tent were. It happened in 1986, I think. There were a fair number of tents in 1987, IIRC. Me and my group of friends (who were one of the first 3-5 folks in line every game from 1986-89) were in full-fledged, season-long tent mode by our junior year.

The guy who was the king of being first in line was a dude named Andy Lux. If memory serves, he was a member of the crew team. He had this folding chair and no matter how early you went out to line, even weeks in advance, Andy was sitting there in his chair. Dude was an animal!

I recall one year a frat told their pledges their only job was to beat Andy out there for the Carolina game. The pledges failed.

I think the tents and the party got named KVille my junior year, 1988. By then it was kinda a non-stop party for a week or so leading up to the Carolina game. I recall waking up one morning, rolling out of the tent and seeing a piece of paper stuck onto a branch with hand-writing saying, "Krzyzwskiville" on it. I am not sure who came up with that name, but it was a good one.

--Jason "memories... ahhhh" Evans

If you are implying that the name was invented in 1988 then I do not think that is correct. I recall a picture of a sign reading "Krzyzwskiville" in my yearbook - class of '86.

Spencer's Daddy
10-02-2009, 02:01 PM
Duke was a "hot" college, and Duke basketball was the "hot" activity. (Second only to the Wednesday night kegs in Stonehenge, but I digress...)


Please, JB, show some class--it was Wednesday Night Club, not just kegs!

loran16
10-02-2009, 03:03 PM
Fanaroff posted a response on the chronicle sports blog which once again seems poorly reasoned and thought out:

http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2009/10/01/build-a-better-k-ville/

I wrote a reply to it in the comments:

==================================
My reply

"To put it in terms that everyone can understand: K-Ville isn’t Duke Basketball; it’s Duke Football before David Cutcliffe showed up."

And you're once again doing the same thing you did wrong in your first column, you're using dumb hyperbole to draw attention without realizing what you're saying.

What is wrong with K-ville? You posit two points:
1. Tenters tent for 3 months
2. We aren't filling up the games.

#2 is inarguable. Agreed.
But #1 IS NOTE. The waiting for three months arose NATURALLY out of the line process in the late 80s, when people started waiting earlier and earlier until one group of people set up a tent a few days before the game. Is this a bad thing? Why would it be?

The only negatives with blue tenting for 2-3 months I can see are:
1. It might detract from students' academics
2. The alcoholism atmosphere at nights.

#1 is not really a problem. There are so many good students who tent at least once during their college years and the truly good ones are able to do so in a way that doesn't harm their GPAs. They can compensate for tenting and still do well.
#2 is...well, it's a college atmosphere problem, not a K-ville problem. Is the K-ville drinking any worse than a frat party or night at Shooters? I think not.

So what problem is there with k-ville? Because some students don't want to tent that long? That's not a problem, those students can white-tent, and we never seem to have problem maxing out on white+blue tents. And the benefits of K-ville still work:
1. The most devoted fans are getting the best seats
2. The atmosphere is unique to Duke and is not duplicated anywhere.

That's why K-ville is great. That's why your changes shouldn't occur.

===========================
Now there are problems, and i do feel that the line monitors should offer incentives to get more kids into games. For example, I'd wonder if white-tenting slots could be offered first to those whose tent members have swiped in to the most Duke BBall games. I'd imagine this information is available to the administration, it would make white-tenting less random and provide an incentive to going to non-tenting games. Moreover it'd prevent "bad fans" from white tenting and only going to the UNC game and no others.

Now that'd be a solution to a problem that actually exists.
================================

Thoughts? Also if Mr. Fanaroff is reading DBR, mind responding to this thread? Thanks.

JasonEvans
10-02-2009, 03:52 PM
My memory is really bad. The KVille sign may have been there in 1986. It was a long time ago.

As proof that my memory sucks, here is an article from USA Today about the 1989 Duke-Carolina game which states we only camped out for 8 days. I really thought it was longer than that.

Spencer's Daddy was right there alongside me for the campout, but his name did not get mentioned in the article. I was a bigger media slut than him, I guess ;)

http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz214/JasonDukeEvans/Scan0001.jpg?t=1254512998

--Jason "sucks that we lost, but you can bet I framed and kept that article" Evans

Highlander
10-02-2009, 04:06 PM
Here's an idea:

1) Old farts like us who have no stake in this, let's shut up.

2) Let the kids handle it the way they want.

I don't know if there's anything in universe lamer than people who are 24-90 arguing about how people 18-23 should do something over which they have sole control. The kids elect student government, which handles the tenting policy.

I look forward to the first November thread acting like the world is ending because the Ugrads didn't fill their section on a Tuesday exhibition versus East Athletes in Action Turnip State. Not.

Throaty - when I read posts from you like this (and remember that we graduated the same year), I by association become an old fart. Thanks for that. :)

lpd1982
10-02-2009, 05:02 PM
Mr. Fanaroff has no influence over decisions being made on what is happening this year and is sharing a great deal of misinformation. Know that every effort is being made to make positive changes for tenting and walk up lines. All but a few career complainers should be pleased.

JBDuke
10-02-2009, 11:23 PM
My memory is really bad. The KVille sign may have been there in 1986. It was a long time ago.

As proof that my memory sucks, here is an article from USA Today about the 1989 Duke-Carolina game which states we only camped out for 8 days. I really thought it was longer than that.

Spencer's Daddy was right there alongside me for the campout, but his name did not get mentioned in the article. I was a bigger media slut than him, I guess ;)

(image removed)

--Jason "sucks that we lost, but you can bet I framed and kept that article" Evans

What a classic Dean Smith quote: "We weren't out to make a statement....Last year was the first time they won the season series in 23 years." What a snivelly little jerk. Heck of a coach, but still a jerk.

dukestheheat
10-03-2009, 09:04 AM
JB,

Thanks for your post. I learned more about K-Ville in that post than I did reading the Kville Tales.

I have a question for you Cameron veterans. I've heard it said a couple places that "Airball" was started at Cameron. Anyone know if this is true?

...by us but I DO BELIEVE that we started the 'throwing of tennis balls across the court while the opponent was doing warm-ups' (I figure if Jason can name stuff like that that maybe I can and get also get away with it). I was at Duke during the late 1980s when this started happening, and I remember at any one time maybe ten green tennis balls flying over the court during warm-ups. I thought this was hilarious and it got people pumped up! When one wouldn't make it across the court, the ball-kids simply went and scooped them up into a basket and it was done. Everyone just took it all in, and it was un-nerving to the opponent.

And, I wasn't with BOG, but couldn't we bring back some vociferous campus group (I remember Dr. Berlin walking past them before a Virginia game and stopping to tell them to 'behave', but he didn't really mean it) to totally harrass the other team like we did back in the day? Who really cares about political correctness when we're trying to win a basketball game? Maybe this is what K was referring to when he addressed the grad student campout a couple weeks back, making a note about the 'edge' that Cameron needs to give Duke this year.

.....pining for the old days, when I didn't have a damned thing to worry about except going to class,

dukestheheat.

Kedsy
10-03-2009, 11:06 AM
I was at the famous 7-0 game, and we definitely chanted "airball" after Chick Yonakur tossed one over the basket on UNC's only attempted shot of the first half. I have no idea if anybody ever did it before that, but we certainly vocalized it that day.

jyu181
10-03-2009, 11:21 AM
I agree that the most devoted, dedicated fans should get the best seats for the Duke-UNC game (and other good games; Maryland isn't what it once was).

But why is devotion and dedication measured in terms of how long one is willing to sleep in a tent outside Cameron? Why not measure devotion in terms of how many Duke sporting events you attend?

DISCLAIMER: I realize that the below policy I propose is a such a radical change that it will never be actually implemented, for reasons of tradition and nostalgia and the like. But I offer it up as a hypothetical for discussion.

Something that I think would be fair, reasonable, would still reward devotion and avoid some of the current problems with K-ville. With this system there would be no tenting and line monitors.

1.) In order to be admitted to the Duke-UNC game, you must have attended at least 75% of the other home men's basketball games. It doesn't make sense for someone who hasn't attended a lot of other games to be at the Duke-UNC game.

2.) To determine line order, a point system is used. You get one point for every home Duke sporting event you attend (of any NCAA sport that Duke offers). The person with the most points gets to enter first, the person with the second-most points get to enter second, etc.

I think there are several good things about this hypothetical system.

1.) Devotion and dedication is still rewarded. You can ensure yourself a front-row seat to the Duke-UNC game by attending every home game in every sport.

2.) The 75% requirement would boost attendance in the early, non-conference games. In fact, some people might choose to attend the early games to help meet the requirement since these games are typically easier to get into it.

3.) The point system would ensure that the people who get the best seats are the ones who have supported Duke sports the most. In addition, they're more likely to be sports fans and more knowledgeable about sports in general.

4.) Attendance at other sports would be increased. Perhaps more people would go to Duke Football games if it was helping them get better seats for the Duke-UNC basketball game.

5.) The problems about disease, swine flu, alcohol, cleanliness, and trash that currently exist with K-ville would not exist with this system.

6.) It's probably a better use of students' time to be attending home sports game than to sleep in a tent for three months.

What do you think of this (hypothetical) system? I'm prepared to get blasted since it is a huge deviation from Duke tradition, but I think in terms of logistics, school spirit, and proper incentives/rewards it is better than the current system.

loran16
10-03-2009, 01:35 PM
I agree that the most devoted, dedicated fans should get the best seats for the Duke-UNC game (and other good games; Maryland isn't what it once was).

But why is devotion and dedication measured in terms of how long one is willing to sleep in a tent outside Cameron? Why not measure devotion in terms of how many Duke sporting events you attend?

DISCLAIMER: I realize that the below policy I propose is a such a radical change that it will never be actually implemented, for reasons of tradition and nostalgia and the like. But I offer it up as a hypothetical for discussion.

Something that I think would be fair, reasonable, would still reward devotion and avoid some of the current problems with K-ville. With this system there would be no tenting and line monitors.

1.) In order to be admitted to the Duke-UNC game, you must have attended at least 75% of the other home men's basketball games. It doesn't make sense for someone who hasn't attended a lot of other games to be at the Duke-UNC game.

2.) To determine line order, a point system is used. You get one point for every home Duke sporting event you attend (of any NCAA sport that Duke offers). The person with the most points gets to enter first, the person with the second-most points get to enter second, etc.

I think there are several good things about this hypothetical system.

1.) Devotion and dedication is still rewarded. You can ensure yourself a front-row seat to the Duke-UNC game by attending every home game in every sport.

2.) The 75% requirement would boost attendance in the early, non-conference games. In fact, some people might choose to attend the early games to help meet the requirement since these games are typically easier to get into it.

3.) The point system would ensure that the people who get the best seats are the ones who have supported Duke sports the most. In addition, they're more likely to be sports fans and more knowledgeable about sports in general.

4.) Attendance at other sports would be increased. Perhaps more people would go to Duke Football games if it was helping them get better seats for the Duke-UNC basketball game.

5.) The problems about disease, swine flu, alcohol, cleanliness, and trash that currently exist with K-ville would not exist with this system.

6.) It's probably a better use of students' time to be attending home sports game than to sleep in a tent for three months.

What do you think of this (hypothetical) system? I'm prepared to get blasted since it is a huge deviation from Duke tradition, but I think in terms of logistics, school spirit, and proper incentives/rewards it is better than the current system.

:-/ I encourage something like that for deciding who gets to white tent, however i'm not sure i like this for the basic reason:

This does discriminate against those who go to games selectively due to the academics. As a student myself, i made sure to go to every MBB game. I went to every Football game. I didn't however have time to go to other sporting events. I had friends who did for inferno reasons, but they would generally leave early.

Plus i don't think you should need to be as devoted to duke's other sports to be devoted to duke basketball. the other sports should earn their devotion (i'm looking at you football).

Like i said before, i like tenting AS is. I'd make the white tenting sign up less luck determined and more bball attendance performance, personally. But still.