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arnie
04-24-2007, 08:15 AM
Interesting that DBR would link to an article blasting the SEC for racist hiring/firing practices. I am not aware of any African American head coaches ever at Duke. Certainly Duke has not hired an African American head coach in a high profile sport.

Does anyone know if we have hired a minority in any NCAA sports? And if not, what possible explanation other than the obvious??

burnspbesq
04-24-2007, 09:50 AM
Interesting that DBR would link to an article blasting the SEC for racist hiring/firing practices. I am not aware of any African American head coaches ever at Duke. Certainly Duke has not hired an African American head coach in a high profile sport.

Does anyone know if we have hired a minority in any NCAA sports? And if not, what possible explanation other than the obvious??

Good heavens. What sort of lunacy is this?

(1) The sport in which there is seemingly the largest pool of qualified African-American head coaches is men's basketball. That job hasn't opened in 27 years, and isn't likely to open soon.

(2) There are arguably only three African-American head coaches in women's basketball with the quality experience to be capable of taking over a high-profile and demanding position such as Duke's. One resigned from her last position under a cloud of suspicion; if she did what she is alleged to have done, that behavior disqualifies her. The other two leveraged the mere availability of the Duke position into significant contract extensions and/or salary increases, and showed no interest in the Duke position as a result. Duke has, in reality, been part of the solution in women's basketball, as two African-American former Duke assistants have gained high-profile head coaching positions.

(3) African-Americans with head coaching experience in football at the BCS-conference level can do a lot better than Duke, as can the small number of African-American co-ordinators who are arguably ready to take the next step.

(4) The pool of African-Americans qualified to coach non-revenue sports at the level at which Duke competes is infinitesimally small. I challenge you to name one African-American who would be qualified to take over, say, the Duke field hockey program is Coach Bozman were to be kidnapped by aliens tomorrow.

It's called an imbalance of supply and demand. It will take at least a generation to change. Racism has not a thing to do with it, and your suggestion to the contrary is scurrilous and indefensible. Get a clue, willya?

wilson
04-24-2007, 10:07 AM
While I think Gary Parrish raises an important point, I think his logic is a bit facile. Kentucky's expectations are somewhat outsized, as we all know. Whereas Tubby got a raw deal, I don't think it's because he is black. It was more because he has been solid, but not spectacular in recent years. More importantly, he has missed out on lots of high-profile recruits. As for Stan Heath, I think past performance cast a shadow on his tenure as well. Arkansas fans doubtless remember the glory days of Nolan Richardson (who, lest we forget, is black), and figure they can recapture them (not entirely dissimilar to many NC State fans' outlook). I don't know the situation at Ole Miss, but I do know they have been entirely irrelevant on the basketball court for pretty much my whole life (the Ole Miss basketball moment I think we all remember most vividly is Bryce Drew's shot to lead Valparaiso to victory over the Rebels in the '98 tournament).

Certainly, there is racism in the south. But I think it's too easy, and somewhat dangerous, to paint the "Southeastern Conference" with the brush of traditional "southern" bigotry. Above all else, SEC schools like to win, and win big. I think the firings reflect that more than prejudice. Presumably, Georgia is right in the center of that supposed "racism belt," but I am a lifelong Atlantan, and I spend lots of time amid UGA fans. Let me tell you: Dennis Felton is going nowhere anytime soon, unless he gets cherrypicked by a higher-profile program. He has been steadily rebuilding the program ever since he arrived, and his performance has won him lots of allies among Dawgs fans. I'm smart enough to know that there are plenty of SEC fans who don't like this or that coach because of the color of his skin (just as there are in every other conference...are you telling me that every Clemson fan just loves Oliver Purnell?). But to level the charge that these coaching changes are due to prevalent, institutionalized racism seems to me like mere sensationalism, not to mention a relatively easy way to meet a deadline.

crote
04-24-2007, 10:17 AM
The Parrish article linked on the front page relied on some pretty dubious reasoning. The University of Arkansas, which has had an African American head basketball coach for the last quarter of a century, has all of a sudden revealed itself to be a prejudicial institution with the hiring of John Pelphrey? Really?

Duvall
04-24-2007, 10:42 AM
(3) African-Americans with head coaching experience in football at the BCS-conference level can do a lot better than Duke, as can the small number of African-American co-ordinators who are arguably ready to take the next step.

It is difficult to reconcile that with the paltry number of African-American head coaches at the Bowl Subdivision level. Has Duke ever interviewed an African-American candidate for one of its too-frequent coaching searches?

MrBisonDevil
04-24-2007, 10:52 AM
Interesting coaching pyramids:

~50% of the Division IA football scholarship athletes are African-American
~25% of the assistant coaches in Division I football are African-American
~3% of all Division IA football programs have an African-American head coach

~50% of the Division IA football scholarship athletes are White
~75% of the assistant coaches in Division I football are White
~97% of all Division IA football programs have a White head coach

Who hires coaches? College presidents & athletic directors
~95% of Division I schools have White presidents
~89% of Division I athletic directors are White

To become a qualified candidate, I think you need to have a real opportunity. Many African-American coaches are placated into positions that provide no real opportunity to move up. “Real Opportunities” is where racism takes its invisible hold. Can we say “Good Ol’ Boy Network?” Honestly, this is a reality in almost every sector in the US. We don’t like it, but it’s immutable (often unseen… but still immutable). It is what it is, folks.

That’s all I have to say…

freedevil
04-24-2007, 10:52 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with Wilson, but wish to stress one thing: the SEC, if anything, is addicted to winning. The firing of a white football coach (Shula) at Alabama, after showing a promising ability to coach, is just one example.

wilson
04-24-2007, 10:58 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with Wilson, but wish to stress one thing: the SEC, if anything, is addicted to winning. The firing of a white football coach (Shula) at Alabama, after showing a promising ability to coach, is just one example.

You're exactly right, but that's part of my point: The issue here is unrealistic expectations and misaligned priorities, not institutionalized racism.

arnie
04-24-2007, 11:16 AM
Am I to believe that no minority football coach would take our job and only 3 minority women's basketball coaches are capable of leading our program??

Wow! Call it what you like, but no one seems to know (or wants to comment on) my original question. Have we ever hired a minority head coach for any our NCAA teams? Additionally, have we ever interviewed a minority for a head coaching positioin. I don't know the answer to these questions.

dcarp23
04-24-2007, 11:24 AM
While I'll be the first to admit that there a) are racists in the South and b) is a disproportionate amount of black coaches in sports, as a Southerner I get tired of people still painting this region of the country with such a bigoted brush. Racism, whether it be overt or subconscious, is just as prevalent in other regions of the country. The South is just an easy target for writers like Gary Parrish who want to show how enlightened they are.

If the number of black coaches in a conference is the be all/end all for determining how progressive a certain region of the country is, let's look at some numbers:

African-American head basketball coaches in the

ACC: Al Skinner (not a southern school), Leonard Hamilton, Oliver Purnell, Dave Leitao, Sidney Lowe, Paul Hewitt, Frank Haith

SEC: Dennis Felton (until recently, Tubby Smith--who wasn't fired, and Stan Heath)

Big 10: Tubby Smith (until recently, Tommy Amaker)

Big East: John Thompson, Norm Roberts, and South Florida (a southern school) just hired Stan Heath

Pac 10: Ernie Kent, Lorenzo Romar, Trent Johnson

Big 12: Mike Anderson, Jeff Capel

So while there is a problem with too few black head coaches, the problem is a tad more pervasive than southerners being bigoted rednecks. Perhaps Mr. Parrish will be more willing to tackle a more complex problem in the future by using methods other than applying stereotypes that are coming on fifty years in age.

MarineTwinsDad
04-24-2007, 12:07 PM
Admittedly, I'm not all that familiar with what is called "racism," as much of my life has been spent in Micronesia and Papua New Guinea. However, I understand that the reason given for having some many athletes of color on sports teams is because they are simply better at the games (more athletic) than "white" players. This is accepted without question. No one ever suggests that race has anything to do with a team putting such a large percentage of a minority race out on a basketball floor.

However, when the discussion switches to coaching, the emphasis changes. If "whites" are represented at a level essentially equal to their population percentage, this is deemed to be "racist" because of the large number of minority athletes. This seems to be somewhat illogical. Is it possible that "white" people may be better at coaching, while African Americans better at playing sports? If it is indeed permissible to have the majority of slots on a team taken by African Americans because they are the best players, why would it be called "racist" to have the majority of coaches from the "white" race? Is there something I'm not getting here?

wilson
04-24-2007, 12:15 PM
Is there something I'm not getting here?

Great post. To answer your question, the only thing you're not getting is that sound logic such as yours is impermissible when it doesn't serve one's agenda. You're admittedly walking a thin line with your questions, but I don't think they're unwarranted.
One problem is that "coaching skills" are usually less quantifiable than on-the-court/field/whatever skills.

burnspbesq
04-24-2007, 12:16 PM
Am I to believe that no minority football coach would take our job and only 3 minority women's basketball coaches are capable of leading our program??

Wow! Call it what you like, but no one seems to know (or wants to comment on) my original question. Have we ever hired a minority head coach for any our NCAA teams? Additionally, have we ever interviewed a minority for a head coaching positioin. I don't know the answer to these questions.

Yes, you are to believe that -- if you care about the truth.

If you are, say, Tyrone Willingham, and you are being pursued (hypothetically, as we have no way of knowing whether this actually happened) by Duke and Washington, why on earth would you choose Duke? If you are Karl Dorrell, a UCLA grad who if finally getting some traction (on and off the field) against USC, why on earth would you leave UCLA for Duke? If you are Sylvester Croom, and you have a chance to be the first African-American head coach in the SEC, why on earth would you pass on that opportunity to be the head football coach at a basketball school?

As far as women's basketball coaches, I would have thought it transparently obvious that I was referring to Dana Chatman, C. Vivian Stringer, and Dawn Staley. If you think I've overlooked some other African-American head coaches who would have been preferable to Coach P as a replacement for Coach G, I'd love to hear your ideas.

As far as your precise questions are concerned, the answer to the first (no) is both a matter of public record and well known to all Duke fans. I'm sure you knew the answer, and asked the question as a rhetorical device. The answer to the second is unknown, and that's fine. Fans' desire to know is properly subordinated to the privacy rights of unsuccessful interviewees.

Look, your user id makes your agenda fairly clear. There are ample reasons to judge Alleva harshly without resorting to unfounded and borderline-defamatory innuendo.

Kewlswim
04-24-2007, 01:17 PM
Hi,

If it appears there are not enough minority coaches with the experience and track-record necessary to be Head Coaches at high-profile schools, how do we as a society make it so that these under-represented coaches get the experience necessary to be able to land jobs at top programs? I don't believe there is instituational racism at Duke, for example, but I do believe when we want to hire a LAX coach--white or black--it is hard to find one that fits what we are trying to do here. Is the answer in having more African-American Assistant Coaches as Coach K has done (ie Tommry, Jeff, etc.)? Does Coach Roof have assistants who could take over for him (I think there are a ton of African-American Coaches who could do the job better than he has and would want to coach at Duke, but apparently I am in the distinct minority when it comes to this point. Please remember that if one is successful at a historically Black college and gets the head job on the Duke football team, that person would receive a nice increase in salary--something I am sure would be welcome). I would go as far as to say I would welcome a female AD. It would be super if there were qualified women who wanted the job. I would be very proud of Duke if they hired an African-American woman as its AD--I bet (I am trying to be nice here) there are lots of women with no experience who would show better sense than Alleva has shown the last few years. Perhaps women who would know what to say about the WBB during, say, the NCAA tournament! My goodness, I am starting to sound grumpy and I was in a good mood today.

GO DUKE!

Classof06
04-24-2007, 03:23 PM
I'm not going to say there's institutionalized racism, but there are things that make you scratch your head. Gary Parrish is not some New York City columnist who has no idea what he's talking about. The guy is from Mississippi, which has 2 SEC schools in its state. I'm not saying everything Parrish says must be taken as truth, but all he did was tell the facts. Here are a few more in both football and basketball

Though not in the SEC, someone brought up Ty Willingham. Willingham won his first 8 games at ND, two over Top 10 teams, finishing 10-3 his first year. But after struggling the next few years, he was fired. Charlie Weis goes 9-3 in his first season, but gets a 10 year, $30-$40 million extension before the year even runs out. Weis has yet to lead ND to a single win as an underdog.

At Alabama, Sylvester Croom, an Alabama Alum and assistant coach for 11 years, was clearly the most qualified candidate for their football vacancy a few years ago. Croom, who was widely considered the frontrunner, ends up losing out to Mike Shula, who had minimal experience in comprasion to Croom. John Mitchell, Croom's former Alabama teammate said shortly thereafter that Alabama would never hire an African-American coach "because nobody there has the guts to pull the trigger."

With Arkansas, Stan Heath replaced Nolan Richardson, the black coach who led Arkansas to the NC in 1994. But what people don't remember is that at the time Heath was hired, Richardson had a lawsuit pending against the University's Board of Trustees for creating a "racially discriminatory environment".

With Tubby Smith, I'm not going to say he got fired because he was black, but I think we all know Kentucky basketball has its history with race relations, or lack thereof. Adolph Rupp wasn't exactly an integrationist and the Rex Chapman confessions of a few years ago are the most recent examples.


Like Parrish says, these are the facts. Make of them what you will...

arnie
04-24-2007, 04:13 PM
You can assume I have another agenda with my postname - but this problem goes a lot deeper than our AD or previous AD's. I am a Duke fan but did not know if we had ever hired a minority coach in any sport until now. You and the other posters can make all the excuses you like, but I find it embarrasing that Duke has never, never, never hired a minority coach in any sport!

Again, DBR links to the SEC in which they are accused of firing a minority coach and we have never, never, never hired one.

darthur
04-24-2007, 05:40 PM
Again, DBR links to the SEC in which they are accused of firing a minority coach and we have never, never, never hired one.

Maybe someone at the DBR just thought it was interesting... Nowhere do they say anything about agreeing with it.

phaedrus
04-24-2007, 06:22 PM
Interesting coaching pyramids:

~50% of the Division IA football scholarship athletes are African-American
~25% of the assistant coaches in Division I football are African-American
~3% of all Division IA football programs have an African-American head coach

~50% of the Division IA football scholarship athletes are White
~75% of the assistant coaches in Division I football are White
~97% of all Division IA football programs have a White head coach

Who hires coaches? College presidents & athletic directors
~95% of Division I schools have White presidents
~89% of Division I athletic directors are White

To become a qualified candidate, I think you need to have a real opportunity. Many African-American coaches are placated into positions that provide no real opportunity to move up. “Real Opportunities” is where racism takes its invisible hold. Can we say “Good Ol’ Boy Network?” Honestly, this is a reality in almost every sector in the US. We don’t like it, but it’s immutable (often unseen… but still immutable). It is what it is, folks.

That’s all I have to say…

if being an assistant coach isn't being in a position to move up, then what is?

Uncle Drew
04-24-2007, 10:17 PM
I read this post the other day along with the initial article but didn't have time to respond until today. But would someone please explain to me why it's important to have a quota based on race, gender etc. that must be adhered to? Years ago many schools assumed it would be good to hire a black coach because they could recruit black players better. John Thompson stated many times he didn't recruit white players because they already had a huge advantage and didn't need assistance. We rake Rupps ghost over the coals for taking the same stance in recruiting, but demonize him for being "white biased". The Imus situation while unfortunate all around showed me how vast the double standard about racism is in this country. (The LAX case taught me a lot too.) But we all know Chris Rock says the same type things about blacks and whites on stage, but it's okay because he's black. Any player who goes to a particular school because their coach is the same race is idiotic. But any school that feels they have to hire a coach of a particular race is just as stupid. In any vacancy the best candidate for the job should be hired regardless of what race they are, despite what some affirmative action quota wants to say.
According to Gary Parish he is ashamed at SEC schools for not hiring black candidates to fill vacancies in football and basketball. Would a hispanic or asian coach be a positive or negative? How about a female coach? Duke has benefitted a lot from players of mixed race in the Coach K era. (Battier, Langdon etc.) If one of them were to become coach at a school some day, does that count towrads the quota or is it nulified due to the coach being part white? I fully realize the injustices suffered by Americans of African descent from the time they stepped foot in the colonies. And God knows no group of people should have had to go through what they did. But at what point is affirmative action, racial double standards etc. enough? There are so many people of mixed race in this country right now (Black, white and every other combination under the sun......I myself have Cherokee blood.) and in 50 years statistics say the majority of citizens will be of mixed race. So when does it all end? When do we face the truth that we are quickly moving to a society where a persons race will require the multiple choice answer e. all of the above? How is an organization that seeks to benefit one particular race any different than the Klan? (Aside from the hoods, cross burning etc.) Is that not the very definition of racism? One can make all the laws and quotas they want to fight racial injustices. But like social security the best intentions often having lingering negative affects with no end in sight.

hughgs
04-24-2007, 10:17 PM
You can assume I have another agenda with my postname - but this problem goes a lot deeper than our AD or previous AD's. I am a Duke fan but did not know if we had ever hired a minority coach in any sport until now. You and the other posters can make all the excuses you like, but I find it embarrasing that Duke has never, never, never hired a minority coach in any sport!

Again, DBR links to the SEC in which they are accused of firing a minority coach and we have never, never, never hired one.

Now you've confused me. Are you merely embarrassed by the fact that Duke has never (seemingly) hired a black head coach or do you still think that there is some sort of institutional racism going on at Duke? You're accusations seemed to have changed and I can't tell if your position has changed.

arnie
04-25-2007, 11:58 AM
My posts have centered on the apparent fact that Duke has never hired a minority head coach in any sport. I am not in a position to say that this is because of institutional racism. However, I suspect we are one of very few (if any) major institutions where this is still true. I believe we should have made signficant attempts to hire minorities - and it does not appear that is the case. Call it what you like, but I think our hiring practices need to change.

CMS2478
04-25-2007, 12:06 PM
My posts have centered on the apparent fact that Duke has never hired a minority head coach in any sport. I am not in a position to say that this is because of institutional racism. However, I suspect we are one of very few (if any) major institutions where this is still true. I believe we should have made signficant attempts to hire minorities - and it does not appear that is the case. Call it what you like, but I think our hiring practices need to change.

First of all let me start by saying I am not a racist by any stetch of the imagination, in fact one of my best friends is an African-American who will be in my wedding coming up. But I don't think you should hire anybody white, black, hispanic, etc. for any job just to be able to say you did and unfortunately that is where our society has come to. My mother was let go of a job because the manager said that they dad to hire certain people to make their company more diverse. She had worked there for many years and was basically told they had to hire enough people of a different race to make their so-called "quota." I am all for equal rights as long as the people are qualified for the job. I am not saying that an African-American is not capable of coaching a team at Duke........but it sounds as though you think we should hire one tommorrow just to be able to say we have a minority coach.

badgerbd
04-25-2007, 12:27 PM
The ranking of coaching positions at Duke starts
1). Men's BB head coach
2). Men's BB Associate Head Coach
3 ties) Men's FB head coach, WBB head, MBB assistant coaches.

For about 10 years 2) has met your quota.

throatybeard
04-25-2007, 01:33 PM
Re: Alabama and Croom...

...one man's loss is another's gain. Mississippi State 24, Bama 16; Tuscaloosa, AL, 11/4/2006

http://msumoron.myweb.uga.edu/croom1.jpg

bill brill
04-25-2007, 01:38 PM
to answer firealleva, one of the four finalists for the men's lacrosse coach was from st. john's, black, and very impressive. he also was, I believe, the lone black coach in the sport. I have talked with some committee members who did the hiring and they said it was the most impressive group ever, but the most impressive was john danowski. not only has he proved to be a terrific hire, but it had to be a plus that his son is the team's best player. as mentioned before, the duke men's basketball job has not been open for 27 years. the women's job was filled for 15. I think the recent women's hire, national coach of the year in '05 and somebody who considered duke her dream job, was right on. many other duke jobs are held by people who have been here a long time. dan brooks of women's golf, the most successful program in the school, 23 years. both tennis jobs, a long time. men's soccer, forever. baseball, as bad, if not worse than football, hired an alum who's parents moved here from new england. he loves duke and has done very well in his second year. football never really has had an open, long, search. and, to be candid, in most sports, there are no or only a handful of black coaches. florida hired carolyn peck in basketball. she had won an ncaa title (beat duke in '99) and been in the wnba. she was physically striking. she got fired at florida because she somehow went winless in the SEC. hire the best available coach, not the race.

Kfanarmy
04-25-2007, 02:26 PM
I've often found it interesting that people are willing, for a variety of reasons, to believe African Americans (black according to the U.S. Census) are somehow more gifted athletes-- Reasons include natural athletic ability, working harder because athletics are the only way out given poor education available, etc. but are not willing to believe that another race may/may not be able to coach better --reasons include institutionally better education, working harder at coaching because of lesser athletic ability. According to the last, 2005, census survey, the black population represents 12.5 percent of U.S. Society, behind White 74.7 and Hispanic 14.5 percent. I'm betting black players in the NFL and NBA represent above 50% of the total. The real money is made by star players. Yet why when we talk opportunity do we not engage in discussions about why african americans are overrepresented in money-making athletic endeavors above white and hispanic kids. White Kids in the U.S are flatly not encouraged at the same level that african americans are...possibly because there are other opportunities. There are quite a few European-white players in the NBA where, I'm admittedly guessing, the encouragement is skewed in exactly the opposite way....they still manage to have white men make NBA teams and excel at a far greater percentage of the whole amateur picture than the U.S. does.

All that is to simply say if you can argue one race has a specific talent to play a game, you can't deny another may have a specific talent to direct it. If you are going to argue quotas, then apply it accross the profession...players, admin personnel and coaches. Ultimately you want the best person for the job at the moment not the best divisionist devisive category (race, gender, nationality--except for the olympics) person for the job. what is fair here...African Americans represent 50 percent of the players therefore there must be 50% African Americans coaches or, the group represents 12.5 percent of society therefore they must have 12.5 percent of the head coaching positions, or African Americans represent 12.5 percent of society so they should represent approximately 12.5 percent of both?

The argument stems from a desire for some to gain an advantage in coaching hires and for others from some society driven need to feel sorry about something they had nothing to do with.

90 percent of the time the best guy probably gets hired (black, white, brown, red, purple) because it would be financially stupid to do otherwise. This kind of perspective has the potential to gain employment for less qualified people (black, white, brown, red, purple) to meet some socialist agenda.

Duvall
04-25-2007, 02:37 PM
hire the best available coach, not the race.

Hard to do that if you never hold an open, long search.

hughgs
04-25-2007, 03:00 PM
My posts have centered on the apparent fact that Duke has never hired a minority head coach in any sport. I am not in a position to say that this is because of institutional racism. However, I suspect we are one of very few (if any) major institutions where this is still true. I believe we should have made signficant attempts to hire minorities - and it does not appear that is the case. Call it what you like, but I think our hiring practices need to change.

I would agree that it is curious that Duke has not had a black head coach, but I think to say that their hiring practices need to change requires that one understand what the hiring practices are. So, what are the current hiring practices and how should they change? Without an idea of the current hiring practices then you're accusing Duke of something they can't defend.

Papa John
04-26-2007, 08:05 AM
Ty Willingham's firing at ND had nothing to do with race, despite what lazy sports "reporters" might say. Willingham was successful right out of the gate at ND, brought in a spectacular recruiting class his first year, then mysteriously got lazy, picked up his golf bag, and completely forgot about the program... He was taking ND football into the tank fast, and the administration decided to stop the bleeding fast and commit to brining in someone who would save the program...

Note also that Weis was offered a contract extension because the statistical performance of the team in his first year [particularly on the offensive side of the ball] clearly demonstrated that these kids were performing much, much better than they had under Willingham... Weis was a heralded offensive coordinator from the pros and toward the end of that season the rumblings that the NY Giants might come a-calling for his services as HC there had begun... Notre Dame offered the contract extension to solidify their commitment to him and allow him to send the message to pro teams like the Giants that he was staying in South Bend...

Note also that Willingham was given an extension, yet he was let go through a contract buyout... In other words, Weis could be bought out if he doesn't perform either...

I agree with what others have said--this is shoddy "journalism"... As a member of the media, these types of stories make me cringe, because it's clear that the guys writing this crap are seeking to exploit a controversial topic to stir up the pot...

calltheobvious
04-26-2007, 09:42 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with Wilson, but wish to stress one thing: the SEC, if anything, is addicted to winning. The firing of a white football coach (Shula) at Alabama, after showing a promising ability to coach, is just one example.


Sorry, free, but Shula was fired because he had given observers no reason to believe that he was indeed a promising coach. Many of his in-game decisions over his four years at Alabama would have been considered egregious errors had they been made by even a first-year junior varsity high school coach. Winning games is not enough when you're leaving victories on the field because of assenine coaching moves.

That said, this only solidifies your point on winning addiction.

Kfanarmy
04-26-2007, 10:06 AM
Sorry, free, but Shula was fired because he had given observers no reason to believe that he was indeed a promising coach. Many of his in-game decisions over his four years at Alabama would have been considered egregious errors had they been made by even a first-year junior varsity high school coach. Winning games is not enough when you're leaving victories on the field because of assenine coaching moves.

I know the point here isn't about Alabama, but I believe Shula suffered his first two years under pretty hard recruiting restrictions, because of boosters paying players long before he got there. Last year his best players were still sophomores and Freshmen and this year will be the first year in a long while where the upperclassmen are represented by a full scholarship load. Shula's coaching decisions weren't questioned until the results were negative. Alabama is still trying to rekindle a tradition of winning that was lost 20+ years ago and they have more monday morning coaches than anywhere I have ever been. Their biggest frustration now is going to be not getting handed championships by manipulating AP/UPI voters into voting for them in multiple loss seasons.

Classof06
04-26-2007, 12:34 PM
Note also that Weis was offered a contract extension because the statistical performance of the team in his first year [particularly on the offensive side of the ball] clearly demonstrated that these kids were performing much, much better than they had under Willingham... Weis was a heralded offensive coordinator from the pros and toward the end of that season the rumblings that the NY Giants might come a-calling for his services as HC there had begun... Notre Dame offered the contract extension to solidify their commitment to him and allow him to send the message to pro teams like the Giants that he was staying in South Bend...


When you compare Willingham's first year to Weis', Willingham's was clearly better, and you cannot tell me any different. Say what you want about kids performing better on the offensive side of the ball, Willingham beat 2 teams that finished in the Top 10 in his first season; Weis beat a #3 ranked Michigan team that ended the season 7-5. Maybe Weis' extension was what it was with the Giants and whatnot, but up until that point, Weis' team had simply not reached Willingham's level of performance, and the extension was premature. Regardless of any of the reasons you listed, the timing of Weis' extension really puts a dent in your argument; he hadn't done anything that Ty hadn't done in his first season. And even if Ty did get his extension as well, was it a 10 year $30-$40 million one?? And was it before the season even ran out or in Mid November?? With all due respect, Notre Dame is fully entitled to do what they want in order to keep the coach they want, but they can't control how it's perceived by the public and neither can you...

Kfanarmy
04-26-2007, 02:01 PM
With all due respect, Notre Dame is fully entitled to do what they want in order to keep the coach they want, but they can't control how it's perceived by the public and neither can you... the point is discussion based on facts. If everyone simply reads what you write, there will be little growth and sharing of knowledge. I'm sure their involvement in NCAA and NFL Championship games is about the same.

calltheobvious
04-26-2007, 02:09 PM
I know the point here isn't about Alabama, but I believe Shula suffered his first two years under pretty hard recruiting restrictions, because of boosters paying players long before he got there. Last year his best players were still sophomores and Freshmen and this year will be the first year in a long while where the upperclassmen are represented by a full scholarship load. Shula's coaching decisions weren't questioned until the results were negative. Alabama is still trying to rekindle a tradition of winning that was lost 20+ years ago and they have more monday morning coaches than anywhere I have ever been. Their biggest frustration now is going to be not getting handed championships by manipulating AP/UPI voters into voting for them in multiple loss seasons.


Shula's coaching decisions have been questioned by a small group since he arrived. Shula's complete deer-in-the-headlights performance at his introductory press conference turned out to be an accurate predictor of the kind of game coach he would turn out to be.

His play-calling went beyond Gene-Stallings conservative. The problem was that he had neither the defenses that Stallings had, nor the respect of his players. The insubordination that was commonplace on Alabama sidelines last year, and evident in newspaper stories, was evidence that his team didn't even believe he was capable of delivering the goods.

I could go on for pages on Shula, but I'll stop far short. If you actually watched all of Alabama's televised games over the last four years and still think Shula was treated unfairly, then I'll simply say that we'll never agree. If you are one of the legions whose perceptions were poisoned by the ESPN-led coaching fraternity who preached that Shula was treated unfairly and that the Bama fans are crazed and unrealistic, I'm happy to share many, many examples of Shula's abject failure as a decision-maker.

FWIW, my father and brother are Auburn alums, and as happy as it would have made me for Shula to retire in Tuscaloosa, I was calling for his firing after the 2005 season, because there was already conclusive evidence--even after a 10-2 season--that he simply didn't have what it takes to even compete for a national championship, much less win one. I'm like Jason Evans in that I'd prefer to have the rivalry be interesting.
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Alabama definitely got what it deserved for not hiring Croom, and instead hiring someone with absolutely no coaching experience that had not come as a result of his famous father.

Kfanarmy
04-26-2007, 04:10 PM
calltheobvious....you didn't address any of the significant points I raised. Apparently you didn't like the way he looked, three years after his introductory speech...don't get it. The point about the players I don't necessarily disagree with, but I think that was greatly impacted by the type of players his predecessors recruited and NCAA restrictions. Living here in Alabama, I saw plenty of Alabama games...the team was in them with a chance to win without the caliber of players opposing teams had. So if the coach keeps the team in games with subpar players, is he overperforming...especially in the SEC where everyone here believes that they have the toughest competition in the U.S? My perceptions haven't been negatively biased by ESPN, though I doubt you could prove the bias...the team has been overrated at points during every season for the last four years. My perceptions, and perhaps yours, have been negatively biased by the ludicrous expectations here of success 20 years ago and the local newspaper, sportsradio, barbershop, shoppingmall and every other kind of expert that are the first to bail from the Albama bandwagon the second the team loses. Imagine the added pressure to their basketball team this year when after two losses local personalities were calling for the coach to be fired....no support for the team when the chips are down but alot of self-congratulatory back slapping when the teams are winning. Fans here were crediting themselves with toughening Florida to win the national championship...how is that possible if the coach was so bad? As I recall they lost 5 games to top 15 teams and one they shouldn't have. 6 losses by an average of a touchdown against arguably one of the toughest schedules in the nation. Fans here pile pressure on the coach and players at the exact moment 92,000 voices of support would help...that is why Shula got fired. It is also why, though I live here but don't hail from here, I find myself routing for the players and team during games and against the school the rest of the week. If fans here put their energy into supporting the coach instead of coach couching I believe you would see a marked increase in the success of both the basketball and football program.

I guess you could take this negative or positive. I think Shula was railroaded out by the local media purposely showing the coach in the worst possible light. I also think there is great potential here being thwarted by the same people and fans who want to kick the team and coach when they are down. It is carcinogenic and strips confidence from the players and coach. Support them in the bad times and you'll get (back?) to the good faster...that is what I'm saying.

bill brill
04-27-2007, 01:23 PM
I obviously didn't make this clear in my first post. nationally, there are a number of black coaches in only men's basketball -- no other sport. football has been considered the problem and there have been precious few opportunities and no real great success stories. clearly the men's basketball at duke has been occupied for 27 years in fine manner. it is reasonable to expect johnny dawkins may replace K -- I hope in a decade or so. as for football, the circumstances of the last few hirings were somewhat unique. barry wilson was elevated when bill walsh wasn't interested. disaster. fred goldsmith was hired on the second try by duke. don't know who else applied and fred had to be talked into it. great start (with wilson's seniors), bad finish. then franks was hired off spurrier's staff and roof was promoted in midyear after wake led 42-0 at halftime in wade. roof beat georgia tech and unc. can't argue with giving him permament job. I'm not saying all the coaching searches made sense -- some weren't even searches. but, in my view, the only possible time when a minority candidate would have had a chance is when goldsmith was hired, and he was a national coach of the year. but some people didn't like the women's basketball hiring, which, considering mccallie's track record, makes no sense to me.

arnie
04-27-2007, 03:05 PM
I am not as familiar with all the present coaches at Duke, but certainly highly esteemed minority track coaches are present throughout the country (in fact one of the most famous comes from this area). I recall that Al Beuhler left a number of years ago (I'm so old that he was my PE instructor one year). Is hiring a minority track coach also out of the question??

Kfanarmy
04-27-2007, 05:32 PM
firealleva;

your original post started with
I am not aware of any African American head coaches ever at Duke. Certainly Duke has not hired an African American head coach in a high profile sport. and ended with
Does anyone know if we have hired a minority in any NCAA sports? And if not, what possible explanation other than the obvious??

can you state concisely 1) what the issue is -- african american hirings with the use of the word "minority" being an appeal to a larger support base for the argument or is it -- minority hirings with african american being the specific example and 2) why, for you personally, it is most important that universities look hard to identify and hire minority/african american (whicever is the point) before "best qualified."

arnie
04-27-2007, 09:57 PM
Your post implies that an African American or minority hiring does not constitute "best qualified". If you think Carl Franks, Ted Roof, the numerous baseball coaches are best qualified you are kidding yourself. I'm done defending my posts on this thread, and if you are proud that Duke has never hired an African American coach, so be it.

Kfanarmy
04-30-2007, 12:01 PM
firealleva;


Your post implies that an African American or minority hiring does not constitute "best qualified". If you think Carl Franks, Ted Roof, the numerous baseball coaches are best qualified you are kidding yourself. I'm done defending my posts on this thread, and if you are proud that Duke has never hired an African American coach, so be it. quite the contrary...yours implies that you want african americans or minorities, not that you wanted Duke to hire Carl Franks or Ted Roof. That's like a polish fan saying their university is racist because they didn't hire Krzyzewski...he isn't available. The logic isn't reversible just because the sentence is...you can be proud if anyone hires the best person available at the time. If you can't be proud because they didn't hire a minority, even if they hired the best available at the time, then there is a different agenda at work...you want the best african american available to fill some other social need. I don't care what the coach is if he is the best available...I do care that others want to make some social stratification more important than best available.