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duke09hms
09-15-2009, 02:30 PM
That richmond loss really hurts even more now . . . but I guess that's why they play the games. Let's go DUKE!!

http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2009/09/15/Football/N.c-c.u.Not.An.Fcs.School-3771939.shtml

doctorhook
09-15-2009, 02:42 PM
Does anybody know exaclty when the game was scheduled, ie was this an AD screw up?

Bluedog
09-15-2009, 02:51 PM
Does anybody know exaclty when the game was scheduled, ie was this an AD screw up?

We canceled the series vs. Louisville, then had to find a replacement for them. Remember them suing us for backing out? We won the case since the judge determined any DI team would be a suitable replacement for Duke. Most good teams have their schedules years in advance...

Edit: I didn't read the article at first; but it says it right there.

throatybeard
09-15-2009, 03:22 PM
We canceled the series vs. Louisville, then had to find a replacement for them.

Why did we do that? A pity, because they're actually beatable nowadays.

pbc2
09-15-2009, 04:04 PM
Why did we do that? A pity, because they're actually beatable nowadays.

This was done during the Alleva years. I am not sure what the motivation was. We did play the first game in what was supposed to be a 4-game series, and lost 40-3 at Wally Wade.

Duvall
09-15-2009, 04:17 PM
This was done during the Alleva years. I am not sure what the motivation was.

[Insert Repetitive Rant here]

blazindw
09-15-2009, 04:19 PM
This isn't news...whether we beat Richmond or not, we need 7 victories this year to be bowl eligible because of the NCCU game. We just need to beat 6 more teams. We have a tough schedule, but a winnable schedule if we play to our potential.

El_Diablo
09-15-2009, 05:18 PM
This isn't news...whether we beat Richmond or not, we need 7 victories this year to be bowl eligible because of the NCCU game. We just need to beat 6 more teams. We have a tough schedule, but a winnable schedule if we play to our potential.

Maybe you're just assuming NCCU is an automatic win, but technically, we only need to beat 5 more teams...if they're the right five teams (i.e., not NCCU). That will give us 6 wins total, and thus eligible.

Although, I guess you could argue that losses to Richmond and NCCU would hurt our chances of getting a bowl bid. On the other hand, it would also mean that we beat at least one team that is currently top-25. Regardless, we'd be eligible.

blazindw
09-15-2009, 05:30 PM
Maybe you're just assuming NCCU is an automatic win, but technically, we only need to beat 5 more teams...if they're the right five teams (i.e., not NCCU). That will give us 6 wins total, and thus eligible.

Although, I guess you could argue that losses to Richmond and NCCU would hurt our chances of getting a bowl bid. On the other hand, it would also mean that we beat at least one team that is currently top-25. Regardless, we'd be eligible.

Nope, not assuming anything. If we won 7 games and neither of them were Richmond or NCCU, we'd still be bowl eligible. Because we had a D-II team that doesn't count, we would need the 7 victories, as far as I know.

duke09hms
09-15-2009, 05:53 PM
because now we have to beat at least 6 BCS teams instead of 5 BCS and 1 FCS team

which means we have to beat 5 of 9 BCS teams left on our schedule instead of 4. I'm as hopeful as anyone, but it is difficult to see that happen . . . Beat KANSAS!!!

-bdbd
09-15-2009, 07:05 PM
Sorry guys -- Richmond, I'm pretty sure, has been on the schedule for a while. NCCU was the late addition to this slate (just last year). At that late a date I'm pretty certain that our options were pretty limited (hence the unusual step of TWO D2 opponents on our schedule this year). I think NCCU would generally be viewed as a "pretty likely win," since they only moved up to D2 last year. When D1 teams schedule D2 opponents it is almost always done with the intent of getting an easy win. That's why the NCAA limits it to just one win vs D2 opponents which can count towards bowl eligibility. Hence, it is pretty rare that D1 teams schedule more than one D2 opponent. Our situation was simply unusual, b/c of the Louisville situation and late need for a schedule-filler.

BTW we sought to drop the Louisville game a couple (3?) years back when Louisville was actually pretty good. So Alleva was almost certainly the scheduler of that one, and of Richmond (with whom we have a bit of history playing them in football -- I recall playing them a couple times when I was in school in the 80's). No way to know they'd be D2 champs though...

FWIW they have a gorgeous campus -- always felt theirs was a rival to Duke's in terms of campus aestetics. And good academics! (I looked seriously at going there before I chose Duke.)

Hopefully in the future we'll be "wiser" in terms of who we pick from D2 to play our "gimme" game against. I do like the cross-town rivalry aspects of the NCCU matchup. Certainly some fence-mending in order post-LAX-scandal....


Regards,

-BDBD

PumpkinFunk
09-15-2009, 07:05 PM
which means we have to beat 5 of 9 BCS teams left on our schedule instead of 4. I'm as hopeful as anyone, but it is difficult to see that happen . . . Beat KANSAS!!!

Especially when 5 of 9 are ranked (GT, VT, Miami, Kansas, Tarholes), and at least two the other 4 are nothing to take lightly (Wake and NC State). The other 2 are UVa are Maryland. So... it'll take some upsets, majorly.

DukeUsul
09-15-2009, 08:57 PM
Ok, so let's go to the source to put this to rest. From the NCAA Postseason Football handbook (http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/champ_handbooks/football/2008/psfootball_handbook.pdf).


A deserving winning team is defined as one that wins a minimum of six games against Football Bowl Subdivision (FBS) competition and has a record that includes more wins than losses. [Exception: Each year, a FBS institution may count a victory against a Football Championship Subdivision (FCS) opponent that has averaged 90 percent of the permissible maximum number of grants-in-aid per year in FCS over a rolling two-year period.]

Per NCAA Bylaw 30.9.2.1 an institution with a record of six wins and six losses may be selected for participation in a bowl game if 1) the institution or its conference has a primary contractual affiliation, which existed prior to the first contest of the applicable season, with the sponsoring bowl organization. In the case of a conference contractual affiliation, all conference teams with winning records must be placed in one of the contracted bowl games before any institution with a record of six wins and six losses may be placed in a contracted bowl game; and 2) all contractual affiliations have been fulfilled and all institutions with winning records have received bowl invitations (either through a contractual affiliation or as an at-large selection).

So this sounds to me like we must either finish 6-6 (where we lose to NCCU) or 7-5 (where we win against NCCU) to be eligible. We must have 6 wins against our remaining FBS schedule.

NovaScotian
09-15-2009, 09:38 PM
[insert repetitive rant here]

fire joe alleva! Fire joe alleva! Fire joe alleva! Fire joe alleva!

RelativeWays
09-16-2009, 07:59 AM
I really don't see Duke making a bowl this year, regardless of the Richmond and NCCU games. I just want to see the team improve from last year and given that Wake, UMD and UVA seem to be about equal to us talentwise, that surely a possibility. I will honestly be happy with 5-7 and ecstatic with 6-6 or above.

El_Diablo
09-16-2009, 08:01 AM
Ok, so let's go to the source to put this to rest. From the NCAA Postseason Football handbook (http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/champ_handbooks/football/2008/psfootball_handbook.pdf).



So this sounds to me like we must either finish 6-6 (where we lose to NCCU) or 7-5 (where we win against NCCU) to be eligible. We must have 6 wins against our remaining FBS schedule.

I agree with everything up to the last sentence. We already have one win, so we only need 5 wins against our remaining FBS schedule.

DukeUsul
09-16-2009, 09:46 AM
I agree with everything up to the last sentence. We already have one win, so we only need 5 wins against our remaining FBS schedule.

Yes of course. "Remaining" should not be in that sentence. :D Thanks.

CDu
09-16-2009, 11:29 AM
I wonder how Vegas handles that. It would makes that "sucker bet" on the 3.5 over/under a LOT more interesting if that the NCCU game won't count toward the win total.

brianl
09-17-2009, 12:21 PM
Isn't it refreshing to be having a thread in which the words Football and Bowl Eligibility are combined?

DukeUsul
09-17-2009, 12:28 PM
Well, we're only two games in. I look forward to this thread hanging around for at least another couple of months. :D

jesus_hurley
09-17-2009, 12:37 PM
Well, we're only two games in. I look forward to this thread hanging around for at least another couple of months. :D

If this thread is still active at the end of October then I'd say Duke has taken a good step towards football respectability. :)

throatybeard
09-18-2009, 11:08 AM
Speaking of boatwreck Joe, he just canceled the LSU series with Tulane. They've played 97 times going back to 1893.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4483965

cspan37421
09-18-2009, 01:39 PM
If we could still go to a bowl by going 5-4 on the rest of our schedule, and that meant 1-4 vs. top 25 teams, I'd consider it pretty lucky for us. I'd have a hard time arguing that a team 0-5 vs. the top 25 deserves a bowl bid.

Yeah, I know you're talking something like 64 teams getting bowl bids and so we don't have to really be better than any top 25 team. But 0-5 really suggests we don't belong. Besides, is it still the case that all but the top bowls are bad financial deals for the schools? I remember years ago SI looking into it, and unless you were playing on New Year's Day (then, an indicator of being in a top bowl), you were losing $$ on the proposition, even if gaining some exposure. (then the difference s/b taken out of marketing and recruiting budget!)

cspan

OldPhiKap
09-18-2009, 03:15 PM
If we could still go to a bowl by going 5-4 on the rest of our schedule, and that meant 1-4 vs. top 25 teams, I'd consider it pretty lucky for us. I'd have a hard time arguing that a team 0-5 vs. the top 25 deserves a bowl bid.

Yeah, I know you're talking something like 64 teams getting bowl bids and so we don't have to really be better than any top 25 team. But 0-5 really suggests we don't belong. Besides, is it still the case that all but the top bowls are bad financial deals for the schools? I remember years ago SI looking into it, and unless you were playing on New Year's Day (then, an indicator of being in a top bowl), you were losing $$ on the proposition, even if gaining some exposure. (then the difference s/b taken out of marketing and recruiting budget!)

cspan

I don't know how the $$ all works out with revenue sharing. But given that money is the reason usually given for the lack of real play-offs, I assume that the big leagues profit even from cruddy bowl games.

(And, as much as I would love to go to another Duke bowl game, I would agree that if can't beat a top 25 team or two then it doesn't make much sense to be invited).

cspan37421
09-18-2009, 03:25 PM
Maybe my SI recollection about bowl games being a bad deal for most schools pre-dates revenue sharing. I date from a time when, IIRC, going 6 rounds in the NCAAs with Johnny Dawkins et al meant a LOT more money than losing in the 2nd round. I'm pretty sure it's not that way anymore on the basketball side, so maybe a lower tier bowl is no longer a bad financial deal.

OldPhiKap
09-18-2009, 03:36 PM
Maybe my SI recollection about bowl games being a bad deal for most schools pre-dates revenue sharing. I date from a time when, IIRC, going 6 rounds in the NCAAs with Johnny Dawkins et al meant a LOT more money than losing in the 2nd round. I'm pretty sure it's not that way anymore on the basketball side, so maybe a lower tier bowl is no longer a bad financial deal.

I don't know either, just suppositioning. (That's probably not a real word but it's Friday afternoon).

Here's to hoping that we're high enough that someone else has to worry about playing on a blue field two weeks before Christmas.

sagegrouse
09-18-2009, 05:54 PM
I'd have a hard time arguing that a team 0-5 vs. the top 25 deserves a bowl bid.



I don't disagree with your sentiment but the college bowl business is a totally different beast these days.

There are 34 listed bowl games for 2009-2010. See this link. (http://www.football-bowl.com/bowl-schedule.html) That means 68 teams are in bowl games. I expect most of these teams will NOT have defeated a top 25 team during this season.

FWIW, the ACC is listed definitively in 7 bowl games, as an alternate (with the MAC) on an 8th and with the remote possibility of having a second team qualify for the BCS series.

This is not like 1962, when the 8-2 ACC champion Blue Devils turned down an invite to the Gator Bowl because it wasn't a major bowl (or at least that's one version of the story). Can you imagine in today's business-oriented college athletics that the players would ever get to vote on a bowl bid? Heck, at Maryland Gary Williams one year spurned an NIT bid and then was told by the AD that, "no, we are accepting the bid."

sagegrouse
'Nature note: while the Greater Sage Grouse is hard to come by in Steamboat Springs, preferring the drier habitats east and west of us., a family of Dusky Grouse has moved into the yard for the last month.'

Indoor66
09-18-2009, 06:31 PM
'Nature note: while the Greater Sage Grouse is hard to come by in Steamboat Springs, preferring the drier habitats east and west of us., a family of Dusky Grouse has moved into the yard for the last month.'

The Greater Sage Grouse also prefers the habitats in the state to the north of you....;)

blazindw
09-18-2009, 07:18 PM
I'd love for us to play in any bowl game, blue turf, dirt field, parking lot, it doesn't matter to me. To become bowl eligible and have a chance to play in a bowl game would be a big deal to me.

Greg_Newton
10-28-2009, 07:14 PM
If this thread is still active at the end of October then I'd say Duke has taken a good step towards football respectability. :)

Bump!:D

Anyway... does anyone know if there is actually a possibility of Duke getting into a bowl at 6-6 if the ACC does not have enough eligible teams? I've heard it mentioned in passing that the ACC could sign a waiver to grant a 6-6 Duke eligibility if not enough teams have winning records, but don't know exactly how that would work.

I know the ACC has 9 bowl contracts including the GMAC Bowl (which I'm pretty sure is non-binding), but are the other 8 bowls contractually required to take ACC teams? Say NCSU/UMd/UVA/FSU all finish with losing records, and Duke finishes 6-6... what happens? Thanks to anyone that can enlighten me.

jimsumner
10-28-2009, 07:27 PM
In order for a 6-6 Duke team to become bowl eligible, the ACC would have to petition the NCAA and the NCAA would have to agree. This only happens if the ACC doesn't have enough bowl eligible teams to fulfill its contracts. How many non-affiliated bowl-eligible teams would there be and how amenable would they be to being bumped by Duke?

Lots of things would have to go right for this scenario to come to fruition.

Maybe going 7-5 would be easier. :)

CameronBornAndBred
10-28-2009, 07:29 PM
Bump!:D

Anyway... does anyone know if there is actually a possibility of Duke getting into a bowl at 6-6 if the ACC does not have enough eligible teams? I've heard it mentioned in passing that the ACC could sign a waiver to grant a 6-6 Duke eligibility if not enough teams have winning records, but don't know exactly how that would work.

I know the ACC has 9 bowl contracts including the GMAC Bowl (which I'm pretty sure is non-binding), but are the other 8 bowls contractually required to take ACC teams? Say NCSU/UMd/UVA/FSU all finish with losing records, and Duke finishes 6-6... what happens? Thanks to anyone that can enlighten me.
The only way I would feel comfortable going to a bowl on a 6-6 record was IF one of those wins is versus Miami or GT.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-28-2009, 07:41 PM
The only way I would feel comfortable going to a bowl on a 6-6 record was IF one of those wins is versus Miami or GT.

Beating Carolina should count double. ;)

loran16
10-28-2009, 08:00 PM
Beating Carolina should count double. ;)

It counts triple in my heart.

RelativeWays
10-28-2009, 08:00 PM
All this bowl talk will look pretty stupid if we can't beat UVA or UNC. Maybe we should cool it until we're at 6 wins THEN its an issue. Right now its nothing.

Greg_Newton
10-28-2009, 08:01 PM
In order for a 6-6 Duke team to become bowl eligible, the ACC would have to petition the NCAA and the NCAA would have to agree. This only happens if the ACC doesn't have enough bowl eligible teams to fulfill its contracts. How many non-affiliated bowl-eligible teams would there be and how amenable would they be to being bumped by Duke?

Lots of things would have to go right for this scenario to come to fruition.

Maybe going 7-5 would be easier. :)

Gotcha, thanks Jim. I ask because it seems that Maryland, NCSU, and UVA have a very good chance of finishing 5-7 or worse (UNC and FSU could easily do the same, but it's a little less likely IMO). If Duke were to finish 6-6 in that scenario, it seems that it might be in the ACC's best interests to petition for the to go to the GMAC bowl, no? It also seems that the fact that the NCCU game didn't count due to a technicality (its "provisional" I-AA status), the NCAA might be sympathetic.

I would be absolutely ecstatic if we went 3-2 in our last 5... just trying to get a feel on what could happen if everything doesn't go right.


All this bowl talk will look pretty stupid if we can't beat UVA or UNC. Maybe we should cool it until we're at 6 wins THEN its an issue. Right now its nothing.

I don't see what the harm is in discussing potential, realistic end-of-season scenarios on a message board. It's been cast as a "beat UVA, UNC and Wake or it's over" scenario, but it may not be quite that simple.

loran16
10-28-2009, 08:13 PM
All this bowl talk will look pretty stupid if we can't beat UVA or UNC. Maybe we should cool it until we're at 6 wins THEN its an issue. Right now its nothing.

Hey, Hey, stop ruining my dreaming!

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-28-2009, 08:14 PM
Hey, Hey, stop ruining my dreaming!
It's a matter of karma.

Jim3k
10-29-2009, 12:28 AM
It's a matter of karma.

In the old days around here we called it offending the Weauxf Gods

OldPhiKap
10-29-2009, 09:23 AM
Maybe going 7-5 would be easier. :)

Going 8-4 would even be better. :^O

We will know we have arrived -- and are truly a bowl-quality team -- when we go from moral victories against big opponents to actual wins.

Why not this team? As good a time as any, sayz I.