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Cameron
04-23-2007, 11:54 AM
Now, obviously by looking at my handle, one can tell that I love our historic facility and would NEVER want it to change. Cameron is one of the most legendary sporting venues in all of the world, right up there with Fenway, Wrigley, Lambeau, Madison Square Garden, Michigan Stadium, Rolland Garros, etc. Unquestionably the most recognizable college basketball arena in the country, Cameron is an incredible home-court advantage for Duke University (this season fell in a leap year) and one that would be hard to match in a newer facility.

With all that said, How much longer will Duke continue to play its basketball games in Cameron? One day, no matter how much we don't want to see it happen, we will move into a bigger, more updated facility. It will happen. It's just a matter of when. In my opinion, it will not happen while Coach K is heading the program. Or, for that matter, if anyone one of his current assistants or former players are coaching in Durham. My cousin is pretty good friends with Coach Collins and he's told me that Chris has said several times that Cameron is too special to leave behind, and that Coach K would never even consider it (my sentiments exactly.) However, it will happen someday.

The one plus with a newer, bigger arena in Durham would, obviously, be more seating. It would be great to have more Blue Devil fans have the opportunity to witness a Duke-Carolina game in Cameron, or any game for that matter. Cameron is a truly magical place, and, from the times I have been there, it was like I was in Heaven. Seriously. The place is amazing.

What are you guys thinking? Will we see a new arena anytime soon, in 10 to 15 years, or not until a coach outside the "family" resides in control of True Blue?

Channing
04-23-2007, 12:09 PM
It would be great to have more Blue Devil fans have the opportunity to witness a Duke-Carolina game in Cameron, or any game for that matter. Cameron is a truly magical place, and, from the times I have been there, it was like I was in Heaven. Seriously. The place is amazing.
Blue?

they wont be watching Duke - UNC in Cameron though if we move. I hope it NEVER happens. I dont know why it is inevitable. I honestly dont know if Duke could fill a 15,000 seat arena on a regular base. The student population is not big enough and there isnt enough of an alum base in the area. Heck, as much as I hate to say, we ahvent even been filling cameron every game the last year or so.

jimsumner
04-23-2007, 12:32 PM
Why is a new arena inevitable? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Duke has looked at adding some seats to CIS but the numbers don't make sense. Could Duke fill a new 20,000 seat arena? A new 15,000 one? The demand for seats in Cameron is so acute that it generates revenue-producing Iron Duke memberships. The home-court advantage is significant, as is the PR benefit of playing in warm-and-fuzzy, user friendly classic arena rather than a sterile, antiseptic arena.

Everybody loves Cameron. Spend money to maintain it, improve it where possible (a new scoreboard might make sense), but I don't see the need to replace it.

MulletMan
04-23-2007, 12:38 PM
I think we're more likely to see updates to Cameron than we are to see a new arena. There are a number of reasons for this, even aside from the obvious one of Cameron being one of the most special arenas in all of sports.

Most of the reasons, IMO, are logistical ones. First, there isn't much room on campus to build a new arena... especially one the size of which you speak. I just don't see Duke building something off campus and then busing everyone there. This brings up another issue, which is parking. There is only so much space for Iron Dukes, and the non-student crowd to park on campus. I just don't see how having an arena with 5,000 more seats would alleviate this problem. The new practice facility for both men and women is next door to Cameron, and although Duke does seem to lack foresight in its decisions on when and where to build things on campus recently, I would pressume that a facility of this magnitude would not have been built next to Cameron if Cameron was going to be gone in the next 10-15 years.

My bet is you start to see more new seats and bleachers like have been added around the court. The facility itself is not really in bad shape... that would really be the biggest reason to move. I just don't see it.

ikiru36
04-23-2007, 01:47 PM
I think we're more likely to see updates to Cameron than we are to see a new arena. There are a number of reasons for this, even aside from the obvious one of Cameron being one of the most special arenas in all of sports.

Most of the reasons, IMO, are logistical ones. First, there isn't much room on campus to build a new arena... especially one the size of which you speak. I just don't see Duke building something off campus and then busing everyone there. This brings up another issue, which is parking. There is only so much space for Iron Dukes, and the non-student crowd to park on campus. I just don't see how having an arena with 5,000 more seats would alleviate this problem. The new practice facility for both men and women is next door to Cameron, and although Duke does seem to lack foresight in its decisions on when and where to build things on campus recently, I would pressume that a facility of this magnitude would not have been built next to Cameron if Cameron was going to be gone in the next 10-15 years.

My bet is you start to see more new seats and bleachers like have been added around the court. The facility itself is not really in bad shape... that would really be the biggest reason to move. I just don't see it.

General agreement.

My understanding is that a primary advantage to a new arena, from a monetary standpoint, is often more about luxury boxes than general seating. While I agree that Duke has an interesting fan-base dynamic that would simply not support 20,000 fans/game, there might be money to be made in a newer, slightly larger facility with 10-12K seats, some corporate boxes, and space for concession restaurants, fan store, sufficient restrooms...etc. However... the corporate boxes aside (which it is very hard to envision adding to Cameron without, literally, raising the roof) much of this can be accomplished through the accompanying additions being built already next door. [And I haven't made a game in Cameron since 2005, so perhaps this has already happened.]

Cameron remains a wonderful arena and it is difficult for me to envision willfully changing it for another, unless there is a way to make it slightly larger/taller on its same location, thereby adding a few thousand seats and some luxury boxes.

Go Duke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

watzone
04-23-2007, 02:05 PM
There are plans to spruce up Cameron. Luxury boxes can be added as can a jumbotron and a few other things. Look for it to happen in the next couple of years.

VaDukie
04-23-2007, 02:22 PM
There are plans to spruce up Cameron. Luxury boxes can be added as can a jumbotron and a few other things. Look for it to happen in the next couple of years.

I'm no architect, but how would they fit these additions given Cameron's current space?

OZZIE4DUKE
04-23-2007, 02:34 PM
There are plans to spruce up Cameron. Luxury boxes can be added as can a jumbotron and a few other things. Look for it to happen in the next couple of years.

A new PA system, one where patrons can actually hear the announcer clearly, would be nice too!

watzone
04-23-2007, 03:29 PM
Imagine the jumbotron in one end (perhaps both) of Cameron (these boys are thin now)... if it happens. Changes would obviously go upward which would prevent hurting the outside look of the facility. I am sure they can work it out. I wouldn't think of really large luxery boxes, but more along the line of filling the corners of the place. I just know that changes are coming. Rumor has it that a certain person hates the new seats that do not match on the floor too:) I am not sure if it can be done (boxes), but where there is a will, there is a way. I'm sure John Roth and Bob would appreciate a new bird's nest too.

throatybeard
04-23-2007, 03:56 PM
Where's FDA when we need him?

ikiru36
04-23-2007, 04:01 PM
Imagine the jumbotron in one end (perhaps both) of Cameron (these boys are thin now)... if it happens. Changes would obviously go upward which would prevent hurting the outside look of the facility. I am sure they can work it out. I wouldn't think of really large luxery boxes, but more along the line of filling the corners of the place. I just know that changes are coming. Rumor has it that a certain person hates the new seats that do not match on the floor too:) I am not sure if it can be done (boxes), but where there is a will, there is a way. I'm sure John Roth and Bob would appreciate a new bird's nest too.

Cool! That's exactly what I was guessing at, it sounds like. And as for the bird's nest, man do any of those announcers more than deserve it. I have no idea how former big men like the G man, Dougherty or Elmore manage to fit up there, unless it has already changed in the past few years.

A new scoreboard and/or jumbotron(s) would obviously be a welcome addition too and easier to imagine improving within the confines of the current space. Very exciting and I hope we're talking sooner rather than later (though, the longer you wait, the cooler the technology gets!)

Go Duke!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Long Live Cameron Indoor!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cameron
04-23-2007, 04:25 PM
Thanks for the feedback here guys. I sure hope most of you are right, though, that a change is not inevitable, because Cameron is a one of a kind building.


they wont be watching Duke - UNC in Cameron though if we move.

Lol, not quite sure what I was talking about when I wrote that. I think perhaps I was thinking about one of the ideas I have always had about Cameron, which would be for Duke to add on more seating in the Stadium, say, 3 or 4,000 more chairs, much like the Greensboro Coliseum years ago. This would certainly be an amazing construction project but I think it could be done. We'd probably have to play our home games somewhere else for at least a year, though, so it is not likely this will ever happen. And, since I am not an architect, I am not sure if this could be done at Cameron.

Well, as one poster pointed out above, and this has always been an inner fear of mine for some reason, is it a general consensus that we couldn't fill a 15,000 seat arena, especially considering that Durham isn't exactly a Blue Devil fan haven? Because I would never want to see a new gym built if we couldn't fill it. That wouldn't make much sense, epsecially for recruiting purposes. Let's just hope that this never has to be an issue and that we continue to play under the lights of Cameron.

1Devil
04-23-2007, 04:31 PM
I expect a new arena will be planned after Coach K has retired. And it will of course be named after him.

I think a 12,000 seat arena would be just right for Duke.

devil84
04-23-2007, 04:53 PM
A new PA system, one where patrons can actually hear the announcer clearly, would be nice too!
I second that!!! I'd be content with something that doesn't sound muffled. I haven't understood much of what Art Chandler has said for years.

- della

Indoor66
04-23-2007, 05:32 PM
I expect a new arena will be planned after Coach K has retired. And it will of course be named after him.

I think a 12,000 seat arena would be just right for Duke.

I think that Cameron should NEVER be replaced unless: (a) Hell freezes over, (b) Heaven gets hot and (c) the Dump on the Hump (Chapel Hill) becomes a desirable place in which to live. I know that if I live to be 250 I will not see those events come to pass - especially (c)! :D

MulletMan
04-23-2007, 05:49 PM
I have no idea how former big men like the G man, Dougherty or Elmore manage to fit up there, unless it has already changed in the past few years.


True. However, you've not lived until you've watched Rick Majerus climb the ladder into the Crow's Nest. Good times!

DU82
04-23-2007, 07:27 PM
I'm no architect, but how would they fit these additions given Cameron's current space?

It'll be hard to raise the roof at this point, although I guess extra seats can be built on top of the Bubas concourse. The matching seats on the other side can be built on top of the walkway between Cameron and Card, although that creates circulation problems outside (ie, how to get to the football stadium and athletic fields from main campus if the walkway is narrowed too much.)

There's been talk for a while of building on the main lobby side, cutting through the wall (actually, windows) to add a restaurant/luxury box setup there, along with a fan store. Improving the lobby, as well, of course.

Number one need (although I second Oz's request for a new sound system) is bathrooms, same as Wallace Wade Stadium. It appears that the queue for women's facilities has been shortened by the addition of bathrooms on the Card side, but the line for the men's room gets longer each year (that may be related to the average age of attendees getting higher, and like the building, the older it is, the worse the plumbing works.)

Regarding other improvements, do we really need jumbotrons? They wouldn't be able to show too many replays (don't want the refs to get offended, or more realistically, threatened) perhaps just a more modern scoreboard with smaller screens in the center.

burnspbesq
04-24-2007, 05:45 PM
The precedent for any Cameron expansion would be the expansion of Gallagher-Iba Arena at Oklahoma State, where the existing 6,000 seat arena pretty much ended up as the lower bowl of a 12,000 seater, with the upper deck built around the existing structure and supporting a completely new roof. IANACE (I am not a civil engineer), but I suspect that popping the roof off Cameron might not be feasible -- can you cut the steel beams in order to take off the roof without compromising the support for the walls? And even if it can be done, it certainly isn't a project that can be completed in eight months -- are you ready for a season or two of Duke basketball at the RBC Center, with a schedule built around the Canes and the Pack?

Ima Facultiwyfe
04-24-2007, 05:59 PM
...MORE UNC fans to outnumber us at the annual game.(Bless their obnoxious hearts.) There just aren't that many of us in the Triangle. We don't fill Cameron as it is. Give the loyal few and proud a jumbotron, some bathrooms and more food and call it a day!

Love, Ima

hurleyfor3
04-24-2007, 07:54 PM
My preferred solution to this non-problem is to move the entire campus somewhere else. Then we can build whatever arena we want.

Think I'm kidding? Wake did it. Heck, WE did it in the last century!

The question then becomes, where? Charlotte would kill to have us. But why not something on the coast, or in the mountains?

Indoor66
04-24-2007, 07:54 PM
How about Morehead City?

hurleyfor3
04-24-2007, 07:58 PM
How about Morehead City?

Anything near the Marine Lab makes sense, but OTOH there is the modern sensitivity to building large-scale infrastructure in the path of potential hurricanes.

Charlotte works for a lot of reasons, as it turns out.

msdukie
04-24-2007, 09:51 PM
A jumbotron in Cameron is a terrible idea. The scoreboard is classic (though really from 1988, it looks older), just like Cameron, and part of its charm (though I wish it listed timeouts). There is nothing wrong with the PA. I can hear Art Chandler clearly in Cameron and on ESPN when Dick shuts up. It's not like we have C.A. Dillon. (I hope the K Lab is also working on the Art Chandler replacement robot while it works on building the K replacement robot coach). As for luxury boxes...it wouldn't be Cameron.

Of course, this is the school that destroyed its traditional basketball uniforms, so anything could happen. Maybe the jumbotron will be BLACK....

hurleyfor3
04-24-2007, 10:54 PM
Oh goodness, why on earth do we need a giant teevee in Cameron? If it's so important, can't you just stay home and watch your teevee there instead?

I like our scoreboard. It has everything you need to know during a game and nothing you don't. The lack of timeouts can be forgiven because it dates from an age when the timeout rules were much simpler. On the other hand, we had the foresight to include a tens' digit for the team fouls.

Why do we need to change anything in Cameron? Why, why, why? If anything I'd start getting rid of stuff, such as the ACC logos on the floor and the pretend championship banners (ACC regular season, final poll #1s). Does UCLA hang that kind of stuff? I think not.

When Art Chandler passes the mike as PA announcer we should try to get Gene Honda. He already does the Final Four, but it's not as if we go to those anymore.

Lord Ash
04-24-2007, 11:00 PM
If they make major changes in Cameron/replace it I sincerely hope that concerned alumni stop contributing any money to the athletic department.

Uncle Drew
04-24-2007, 11:33 PM
Okay while I NEVER want to see Cameron replaced EVER. I have to disagree with you guys about being able to fill a 12-15000 person arena. There are a ton of working class Duke fans who would LOVE to attend games that seldom get to. The closest we get to the Cameron atmosphere is Duke vs. Australian National team every four years. While they will actually pay you to attend a Duke football game, Duke mens basketball tickets are hard to come by. And the people making the $$$$ off the lack of seats are scalpers who charge out the wazoo. I know lifelong Duke fans in their 30's who have never seen a single game in Cameron. And we all know what a good brainwashing tool Cameron can be to make lifelong Duke fans among the kids in NC. It's be nice to see kids getting to enjoy the experience. Again I never want to see Cameron replaced. But some of us non Iron Dukes would like to see an ACC game again in person before we die.

accfanfrom1970
04-25-2007, 02:51 AM
Replace the wooden seats with something a little more comfortable....something with a cup holder so you don't kick over drinks. Maybe a bigger store as part of the concourse. Other than that don't change a thing.....

Indoor66
04-25-2007, 07:59 AM
Replace the wooden seats with something a little more comfortable....something with a cup holder so you don't kick over drinks. Maybe a bigger store as part of the concourse. Other than that don't change a thing.....

The seats are made for standing and drinks are for half-time. Be Crazy.

OZZIE4DUKE
04-25-2007, 10:40 AM
Okay while I NEVER want to see Cameron replaced EVER. I have to disagree with you guys about being able to fill a 12-15000 person arena. There are a ton of working class Duke fans who would LOVE to attend games that seldom get to. The closest we get to the Cameron atmosphere is Duke vs. Australian National team every four years. While they will actually pay you to attend a Duke football game, Duke mens basketball tickets are hard to come by. And the people making the $$$$ off the lack of seats are scalpers who charge out the wazoo. I know lifelong Duke fans in their 30's who have never seen a single game in Cameron. And we all know what a good brainwashing tool Cameron can be to make lifelong Duke fans among the kids in NC. It's be nice to see kids getting to enjoy the experience. Again I never want to see Cameron replaced. But some of us non Iron Dukes would like to see an ACC game again in person before we die.

Try coming to Cameron for most any game not against carolina and buy tickets from the season ticket holders who are selling extras at face outside of Cameron. There are almost always (granted, a caveat if you are traveling a great distance, but not if you are within an hour or two of Durham) tickets available. Doesn't mean you will find 2 or 4 together, but lots of single seats can usually be had. Note that face value can range from $25 to $60+ depending on seat location, and there are only about a dozen obstructed view tickets in Cameron (some, but not all of the cheap tix). What do I mean by "lots of single seats"? Anywhere from a couple of dozen to, well, lots. Last year when I unexpectedly had an extra and there were no buyers to be found, I sat with another frustrated seller in his extra seat and we gave my pair to grad students waiting in line. That's gave, as in free. We both would have preferred to sell them at or near face value, but no ticketless fan took the time to come out to Cameron. If memory serves me right, I think it was the Temple game on Jan. 2.

Cameron
04-25-2007, 11:31 AM
Replace the wooden seats with something a little more comfortable

The wooden seats are part of what gives Cameron that special mystique, much like the old yellow seats in Boston Garden. I hope they are NEVER replaced. The same goes with Big Blue (our center scoreboard:)) She brings a lot of nostalgia to the building. Look on the bright side, at least it's not the rusty center piece Kentucky has. That thing is downright ugly.

Indoor66
04-25-2007, 12:13 PM
Those wooden seats are, I believe, original. (I know the frames are original.) My sons and I helped paint the seats back in '77 during the Foster era. Bill was a promoter. Anybody else remember the switch plate covers with Duke on them that were given (or sold) then?

During the renovations in the K era the painted seats were returned to their original color as well as the Oak added around the front of the upper seats and at the north and south end walls.

IRRC, about that time (77-78), the original 1940 floor was replaced (I have a piece that was sold then) and I think the present scoreboard and from-the-ceiling, retractable basket supports were installed. (The old supports sat on the floor and locked into plates set in the floor. They used to be folded and stored in the corners of Cameron when not in use.)

They also used lower the scoreboard to put nameplates in for the visiting teams. IIRC, the school names were painted on glass.

testkid
04-25-2007, 02:08 PM
...MORE UNC fans to outnumber us at the annual game.(Bless their obnoxious hearts.) There just aren't that many of us in the Triangle. We don't fill Cameron as it is. Give the loyal few and proud a jumbotron, some bathrooms and more food and call it a day!

Love, Ima

Why do you guys keep saying we can't fill a 20000 seat arena in the state when we put 19000 in the garden every year. Also wake solded out all their home guys the last few years. There are never that many carolina fans at our game.

CMS2478
04-25-2007, 02:17 PM
Why do you guys keep saying we can't fill a 20000 seat arena in the state when we put 19000 in the garden every year. Also wake solded out all their home guys the last few years. There are never that many carolina fans at our game.

How dare they "solded out all their home guys." ;)

jjasper0729
04-25-2007, 02:52 PM
I'm pretty confident that Cameron won't be replaced by something bigger for a very long time, if ever.

As far as the scoreboard. The actual housing for the scoreboard is not the issue. The controls for it, however, are considerably out of date. If anything on the scoreboard gets replaced, it would be the middle screens to something more modern (a small jumbotron type of screen) with much more modern input controls at the scorer's table.

As far as the PA system, it's pretty close to original. Upgrading the scoreboard screens would probably bring about an upgrade to the PA system as well. I know Dr. Chandler said he would do the games as long as he had breath in his body so we have that for a while.

There's no need for jumbotrons at the ends of the stadium (north and south short ends), especially if the center screens are upgraded to something not at least 20 years old.

As far as things that NEED to be done, from my perspective* when I attend the games, those are the highest priorities.

*note.. my perspective is from the scorer's table as the statistician.

throatybeard
04-25-2007, 02:54 PM
Why do you guys keep saying we can't fill a 20000 seat arena in the state when we put 19000 in the garden every year. Also wake solded out all their home guys the last few years. There are never that many carolina fans at our game.

Explain to me how one annual uber-promoted event for alumni in the most populous MSA in America is even remotely comparable to a long long string of home games in Durham against Davidson/UNCG/West Central Midmajor State.

DukeUsul
04-25-2007, 03:04 PM
Well since we can't decide what the optimal seating capacity would be to satisfy local demand while keeping the light blue horde out..... let's just settle on 9316. I can guarantee you I could find two more Duke fans in the Durham area who would be at every game.

johnb
04-25-2007, 03:04 PM
I agree--an annual game in New York isn't the same thing as 20 games in Durham.

By the way, MSA...?

Mine Safety Appliances Company
Management Science Associates, Inc.
Metropolitan Statistical Areas
Mineralogical Society of America
Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools

I'm guessing 'c.'

watzone
04-25-2007, 03:32 PM
I like the idea of jumbotrons. They do not have to be that large, and there are some advantages to having them. Replays are not that bad a thing, nor are promts for cheering. It is a good way to convey messages, advertising for money, faces during say starting lineups, trivia, crowd shots and more. It 's a major updgrade that pays dividends and you do not have to use them as say the NBA does. IMO, the advantages outweigh the negatives. It wouldn't hut to have a scoreboard with them or it. Just the score, time and say shot clock would be cool. Imagine the reaction when the team needs a lift. That's no knock on the Crazies, yall know how far I go back and how faithful I am. Oh, and it would help for concerts and other events such as banquets. They make them thinner and thinner, so I hope they give the idea some discussion. I can see "defense" coming up when Duke is on a close contest, with the crowd cheering the Devls on. It is a great way to lift a crowd, but that is my opi. I'm good either way.

Now, rest assured I do not want music - I like the traditional college basketball feel. No flashing lights or strobes.

jjasper0729
04-26-2007, 04:19 PM
in response to the jumbotron idea. the prevailing thinking from the people that run the scoreboard is that a jumbotron of some sort (think a little smaller than the rbc center) would replace the current screen set up. there wouldn't be anything in the ends of the stadium, but the jumbotron concept would be in the main scoreboard.

Cameron
04-26-2007, 05:13 PM
Perhaps she needs a few electrical updates, but, aside from that, let's just leave ol' Blue alone. She's a legend.

crimsonandblue
04-26-2007, 07:06 PM
Kansas has made recent renovations to Allen Fieldhouse that are along the lines of what you all are talking about. We built a new hall of athletics/offices off the front of the building, that houses a university athletics museum. They did it in a way that it's consistent with the existing building (i.e. limestone exterior, nothing too modern on the outside) and didn't change the footprint of the building substantially. The major basketball renovations were: (1) all new lighting (obscenely upped the candle power and took some getting used to, but needed to be done); (2) new sound system (greatly improved, although it'll never be like a new stadium); (3) new old seats (took out plastic chairs and installed old chairs reclaimed over the years from old gyms to keep consistent feel); and (4) installed a new jumbotron scoreboard shown below.

http://media.lawrence.com/img/photos/2007/01/10/Collins_fisheye_t800.jpg?90232451fbcadccc64a17de75 21d859a8f88077d


I wasn't a huge fan of the idea of installing the new scoreboard, but it's a nice feature now and they did a good job of making it look like the old board, only bigger and with new features. It's basically a marketing tool for recruits (in addition to some advertising), so if it works, it works. The biggest downside to the new board is it diminished the number of performances of the band/pep squad as they have the board for presentations/music.

RelativeWays
04-26-2007, 07:34 PM
If Duke is having trouble filling Cameron as it is, why is it such a nitemarish proposition to get tickets? You do realize that there are more Duke fans in NC than just the student body, local alumni and the population of the triangle. You have fans in the triad area and central NC like Sanford or Pittsboro where a drive to Durham. I bet Duke could fill a 12000 seat stadium fairly consistently and a larger venue may help serve as an outreach from the university to the great triangle community and NC as a whole. I know the exclusivity is part of Cameron's charm but it can be offputting or intimidating to some. Besides, didn't Appalachian State build a new BBall arena a few years ago that seats around 12000? (my numbers may be waaaaaay off.) What does App have that Duke doesn't? A larger student body surely, but Duke's bball program is national known, which more than counters that.

Its been 15 years since I've seen a game in Cameron and I'd love to go again. This year, the closest I may get is Wallace Wade.

merry
04-26-2007, 07:58 PM
If Duke is having trouble filling Cameron as it is, why is it such a nitemarish proposition to get tickets? You do realize that there are more Duke fans in NC than just the student body, local alumni and the population of the triangle. You have fans in the triad area and central NC like Sanford or Pittsboro where a drive to Durham. I bet Duke could fill a 12000 seat stadium fairly consistently and a larger venue may help serve as an outreach from the university to the great triangle community and NC as a whole. I know the exclusivity is part of Cameron's charm but it can be offputting or intimidating to some. Besides, didn't Appalachian State build a new BBall arena a few years ago that seats around 12000? (my numbers may be waaaaaay off.) What does App have that Duke doesn't? A larger student body surely, but Duke's bball program is national known, which more than counters that.

Its been 15 years since I've seen a game in Cameron and I'd love to go again. This year, the closest I may get is Wallace Wade.

I've been hearing variations of this story ever since I got my first set of season tickets 14 years ago. Sure there are plenty of people who want to go to games but they don't want to pay the going rate. Do you think adding 3000 seats to Cameron (or building a 12000 arena) would mean the Iron Dukes would suddenly drop the contribution requirement?

And as for the single ticket availability I have rarely found any of these fans who's willing to pay face value for Duke tickets to one of the less competitive out of conference games. As someone else noted the face value cost of a pair of upstairs seats for a Duke game is $70 to $120.

jjasper0729
04-27-2007, 08:29 AM
Perhaps she needs a few electrical updates, but, aside from that, let's just leave ol' Blue alone. She's a legend.

I think this is what they have in mind. The screens are very old (last renovation) and the controls are antiquated in todays digital age. My feeling is the housing would stay the same and the screens would get a modern update (a-la that allen fieldhouse thing, just a little smaller). the size of the scoreboard really couldn't be enlarged or it would be disproportionate to the size of the arena.

as far as i'm concerned, everything about cameron is just fine (outside of the scoreboard electronics and the sound system). the upper deck routinely is full (I don't recall seeing a non-weather impacted game not be full). the issue with a full house is mostly with the student section the last few years in my opinion. I sit right across from the main student section and when you have an acc game tip off and the bleachers are no where near full, that's a big statement.

JH22255
04-27-2007, 04:27 PM
ASU's Arena actually seats about 1,000 less than Cameron - 8,325. There are no luxury boxes there, the demand is obviously a bit different. But, having been there, it is possible to make a very nice arena that is smaller than most of the big ones built these days.

4decadedukie
06-22-2007, 10:07 AM
I love Cameron Indoor Stadium – its intimate feel, its classic look, its polished ambiance, its snug size, the proximity of players and fans, in fact everything about it. I know my view is FAR from unique; Cameron, probably along with the Chapel, is the dominant Duke icon and generations of Dukies cherish their memories of the place – both as students and thereafter. In addition, it is a renowned American sports symbol (didn’t SI rate it among the top three (?) locations in US athletics?). Further, Coach K has indicated that he wants Duke to play at Cameron indefinitely, due to the imminence of the team and their fellow students.

However, the “small” arenas (remembering that initially Cameron was the largest basketball venue south of the Palestra) of past generations are being superseded by modern – and sometime horrendously ugly – structures that frequently seat ten-of-thousands more than Cameron. Even the best of these (UVa’s John Paul Jones Center is a good example) lose many wonderful traits to accommodate several/many thousand more fans (and, obviously, the additional revenue created not only by greater capacity, but also by premium-priced special-box, seating).

Therefore, with this well-known information as background, here is my question. By 2030, will Duke build a new “super-sized” basketball stadium, to compete with the Dean Dome, the RBC Center, and so forth? If so, what will be the impacts – both positive and negative – on Duke Basketball?

feldspar
06-22-2007, 10:17 AM
Doubtful. It's hard enough to get people to come to all the games as it is right now. You're not going to be able to fill a whole "super-sized" stadium with as small of a fanbase in NC that Duke has.

The Gordog
06-22-2007, 10:17 AM
No, it won't.

WeepingThomasHill
06-22-2007, 11:12 AM
It is blasphemy to even suggest that Duke would build another facility. Cameron forever!

Oh Canada
06-22-2007, 11:20 AM
Being as I'm from Canada I've only been on a visit to Duke once so I don't have the greatest knowledge of the Durham area. Just wondering why it was stated that it's difficult filling Cameron. Is it the overall population of Durham, the economic status of the residents, or the size of the student body? Just seems like UNC is always quite full so I'm assuming it's because they have a larger student population.

allenmurray
06-22-2007, 11:36 AM
It is not just the larger student population - it is the much larger alumni base. The large majority of UNC students are from NC. The large maorrity of Duke students are not. There is an enormous UNC alumni base within an hour's drive of Chapel Hill. The large majority of Duke students do not stay in the Triangle area after they graduate. The cummulative effect of this over 30 or 40 years is tremendous.

SilkyJ
06-22-2007, 11:37 AM
Being as I'm from Canada I've only been on a visit to Duke once so I don't have the greatest knowledge of the Durham area. Just wondering why it was stated that it's difficult filling Cameron. Is it the overall population of Durham, the economic status of the residents, or the size of the student body? Just seems like UNC is always quite full so I'm assuming it's because they have a larger student population.

Well UNC is a state school so many, if not most, of the students come from NC and stay in NC, and the triangle area is obviously a hot spot for college grads. Duke students come largely from out of state and not nearly as many stay in the state after graduation so our fan base isn't as close by.

Also, and people from NC can correct me, but I think it is more common if you are born in NC and your parents dont have any alegiance, to root for UNC or NC State and not duke

JBDuke
06-22-2007, 11:54 AM
Being as I'm from Canada I've only been on a visit to Duke once so I don't have the greatest knowledge of the Durham area. Just wondering why it was stated that it's difficult filling Cameron. Is it the overall population of Durham, the economic status of the residents, or the size of the student body? Just seems like UNC is always quite full so I'm assuming it's because they have a larger student population.

Well, the larger student population is just part of it. You probably know this, but a lot of folks I talk to are surprised at just how small Duke is. There are around 6000 undergrad students, and they let somewhere around 1200 into the bleachers in Cameron. So, when you see a packed house, about one of every five Duke undergrads is in the building. That's pretty good student support, IMO. Duke also has about 3000 grad students, and I think Cameron seats somewhere between 300 and 500 of them. Carolina has about 28,000 on campus, btw, and State about 30,000.

Duke doesn't have a large alumni contingent in the state of North Carolina. A lot of Duke students come from around the country, and when they graduate, they tend to either go back to where they came from, or migrate to the larger metro areas in the US. Carolina grads and NC State grads largely come from inside the state and tend to stay within the state - thus they both have much larger alumni fan bases in the area.

Now, Duke's fans aren't just alumni and current students, and it's my belief that they could sell a lot more season tickets than they do to fans of the team in the area that can't afford it currently, due to the sky-high required contributions to the Iron Dukes required. The problem is that, to sell those tickets, you'd lose the revenue from the contributions to the Iron Dukes. Right now, Cameron is the driving engine behind the Iron Dukes revenue. Replace Cameron with a larger arena, and then folks won't have to give $5000 a year just to have a shot at season tickets. It takes a lot of extra tickets sold to make up for that lost contribution...

Also, when times aren't so good for Duke basketball (and thanks to Coach K, you have to have a long memory to recall when they weren't), you're still stuck with a big building, and you may have trouble filling it. Many of the local fans are loyal through thick and thin, but many are on the Duke bandwagon. If the road gets bumpy, a lot of folks leave the wagon...

So, between the smaller student population (and the resulting smaller alumni population), the tendency of alumni to not stay in the area, and the potential loss of contribution revenue, it's hard to argue that a large arena makes sense for Duke.

(Now, don't be surprised if a nut under the post name of "formerdukeathlete" chooses to chime in on this topic. It's one of his favorite subjects. It's best to just smile, nod, say "that was interesting", and move on... ;-)

dukerev
06-22-2007, 12:43 PM
One of the positive factors for Cameron is its limited capacity. If there were so many seats that anyone could walk up for any game and get a seat there would be far less reason to ask large amounts of money for those seats. Keep the supply low(er) and the demand stays up. This clearly isn't the only factor, but it is one of the factors. I think we'll see ongoing renovations of Cameron over the next 25-30 years (perhaps adding a jumbotron/better scoreboard of some sort, better restroom facilities and concessions, and eventually maybe luxury boxes). But Cameron is going to be around for a while. Thank goodness.

mepanchin
06-22-2007, 01:15 PM
There are actually more post-graduates than undergraduates on campus now. According to http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/resources/quickfacts.html#admin there are about 6700 post-graduates and about 6100 undergraduates. Duke is not a terribly small university, but it's not really on the level of UNC (with about 26000 total students) and NC State (about 31000 students).

Also, people are generally right about Duke grads often leaving the state, but it is worth noting that usually (at least in the mid 90s) the most represented state in Duke's population is North Carolina with New York, California, Florida following up. At any rate, there is still a wide diversity of students at Duke, while UNC is mostly people from NC. On top of that, even people who don't go to college rarely root for Duke here. The prevailing sentiment seems to be (from my experience) that Duke students are all arrogant, rich northerners (I don't see why the distinction between north and south has to exist in 2007, but whatever). On the other hand, people tend to associate themselves with UNC because it is "their" university - ignoring the fact that many students at UNC are, themselves, arrogant and rich.

Though, I'm not sure we'd have a terribly hard time filling a stadium that is a fair bit bigger. Right now Cameron seats 9314 officially, and I'm pretty sure we'd easily fit 15000 considering how many students can't go to games and considering how many other fans want to go to games but can't. In the grand scheme of things, 6000 people is not a whole lot.

Zeke
06-22-2007, 01:28 PM
With a much larger stadium and a relatively small alumni base it could be that it might end up with a larger percentage of Carolina fans at the Duke/Carolina games than Duke fans. Then the 6th man would be for Carolina - that would be a bummer. I guess you could see it happen for State, WF, and Clemson too.

bbar7502
06-22-2007, 01:47 PM
i agree with the iron dukes comment. if season tickets were open to first come, then it would be full, but then you would lose all of those contributions. i for one would go to every single game and sit in the worst seats (which to me there isn't too many bad seats) if i could get season tickets. i just can't afford to contribute the money like the iron dukes, so I just try to get some outside the stadium and from other people whenever possible. still hoping one day to see a carolina game in cameron one day...

Lord Ash
06-22-2007, 02:34 PM
I would be made SICK, and certainly show it by not donating a penny more, if they got rid of Cameron.

kydevil
06-22-2007, 02:55 PM
I don't think we will have to worry about getting rid of Cameron.

MulletMan
06-22-2007, 05:02 PM
Duke also has about 3000 grad students, and I think Cameron seats somewhere between 300 and 500 of them.

Duke currently has about 7000 graduate and professional students that can get into games. There are 700 tickets / seats allocated for the grad and professional students, and the section is filled for nearly every game. Seriously, between those who have tickets and those who come to the walk-up line (where you can get in if all the graduate tickets haven't been swiped) the grads fill thier section nearly every game, and sometimes help out with the undergrad section.

Strong. Long live The Phalanx! (Oh wait... we're all gone now. Whatever.)

Clipsfan
06-22-2007, 05:09 PM
There are actually more post-graduates than undergraduates on campus now. According to http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/resources/quickfacts.html#admin there are about 6700 post-graduates and about 6100 undergraduates. Duke is not a terribly small university, but it's not really on the level of UNC (with about 26000 total students) and NC State (about 31000 students).

Also, people are generally right about Duke grads often leaving the state, but it is worth noting that usually (at least in the mid 90s) the most represented state in Duke's population is North Carolina with New York, California, Florida following up. At any rate, there is still a wide diversity of students at Duke, while UNC is mostly people from NC. On top of that, even people who don't go to college rarely root for Duke here. The prevailing sentiment seems to be (from my experience) that Duke students are all arrogant, rich northerners (I don't see why the distinction between north and south has to exist in 2007, but whatever). On the other hand, people tend to associate themselves with UNC because it is "their" university - ignoring the fact that many students at UNC are, themselves, arrogant and rich.

Though, I'm not sure we'd have a terribly hard time filling a stadium that is a fair bit bigger. Right now Cameron seats 9314 officially, and I'm pretty sure we'd easily fit 15000 considering how many students can't go to games and considering how many other fans want to go to games but can't. In the grand scheme of things, 6000 people is not a whole lot.

I remember that although NC had the largest representation of any state at Duke, the top ones were all fairly close to each other. I don't think that there were more than 130-140 undergrads from NC each year.

JBDuke
06-22-2007, 05:26 PM
Duke currently has about 7000 graduate and professional students that can get into games. There are 700 tickets / seats allocated for the grad and professional students, and the section is filled for nearly every game. Seriously, between those who have tickets and those who come to the walk-up line (where you can get in if all the graduate tickets haven't been swiped) the grads fill thier section nearly every game, and sometimes help out with the undergrad section.

Strong. Long live The Phalanx! (Oh wait... we're all gone now. Whatever.)

Thanks for the correction (from you and mepanchin). It seems Duke's grad student population has increased dramatically while the undergrads have stayed fairly constant in the years since I was on campus (i.e., the Dark Ages).

Indoor66
06-22-2007, 05:30 PM
It is not just the larger student population - it is the much larger alumni base. The large majority of UNC students are from NC. The large maorrity of Duke students are not. There is an enormous UNC alumni base within an hour's drive of Chapel Hill. The large majority of Duke students do not stay in the Triangle area after they graduate. The cummulative effect of this over 30 or 40 years is tremendous.

This may be anecdotal, but I have heard that every four years, UNC graduates more students than Duke has graduated since it's founding.

I agree with allenmurray on his info quoted herein - and the effect does not take 30 or 40 years to impact the fan and alumni base.

DU82
06-22-2007, 06:18 PM
This may be anecdotal, but I have heard that every four years, UNC graduates more students than Duke has graduated since it's founding.

I agree with allenmurray on his info quoted herein - and the effect does not take 30 or 40 years to impact the fan and alumni base.

I remember that at one time, but as Duke as added more graduates, and UNC hasn't grown significantly, it's no longer true.

Doing the math, Duke adds 1500 new grads a year (not including advanced degrees.) When I graduated in 1982, there were ~1300. That's 25 times 1300+, so over 30,000 easily, with most still with us. Carolina graduates about ~20,000 in four years (basically a current four-year batch of undergrads) so they've fallen behind. However the uninformed still vastly outnumber us.

The (Royal) Blue Devils are catching up to the blue with all the intelligence faded away.

Regarding Cameron, the ever rising cost of the right to purchase tickets scares many away. As many (especially Ozzie) have mentioned, for almost any game other than Carolina and some ACC weekend afternoon games, you can get into Cameron for face value. Just ignore the scalpers and hang out wearing Duke clothes holding up one finger (two if your youngster is with you.) Most of the time, you'll have no problems.

Olympic Fan
06-22-2007, 08:27 PM
The statement that Duke has trouble filling Cameron is extremely misleading and not relevent to the discussion about a larger arena.

The problem is that every seat is sold before the season opens -- either to season ticket holders who have to either be grandfathered into their tickets or to make a large contribution just to purchase the tickets; or to students (both grad and ungrad) who are allotted a significant proportion of Cameron's seats.

The growing problem is that so many fans are only interested in the really big games, that for anything other than Duke-Carolina or maybe Duke-Maryland or Duke-UCLA or whatever, a significant number of season ticket holders and even students don't use their tickets/space.

There are literally thousands and thousands of ordinary Duke fans who can't afford the contribution required to get season tickets who would kill to buy tickets. Or they would pay to stand in the corners that the Duke students don't fill up for the Cornell game or when UNC Greensboro comes.

If Duke had a larger arena -- say 18,000 or so seats -- those extra tickets would sell in a flash ... then the place would look half-empty for another other than the big games.

There are plenty of reasons to keep Cameron -- it's the most unique and admired college arena in the country ... a magnificant asset for the program. Financially, Tom Butters did a study a few years ago which indicated that it would not be cost-effective to replace it.

But don't suggest that Duke needs a small stadium because of its fan base ... the extra fans are out there (for basketball anyway) and would probably attend at a higher rate than the current ticket holders and students, who have become a bit blase with Duke's success. At least they would for a few years, until they also became jaded.

Personally, rather than talk about replacing Cameron, I'd rather work on a better method to distrubute (even re-sell) unused tickets and maybe the way to use the space the undergrads leave empty for so many games.

OZZIE4DUKE
06-22-2007, 09:15 PM
This may be anecdotal, but I have heard that every four years, UNC graduates more students than Duke has graduated since it's founding.


When I was an undergrad in the 70's, people used to say that Penn State had more undergrads (>50,000+) than Duke had graduates since inception (<50,000). That is no longer true, but that was astounding.

Cameron
06-22-2007, 09:58 PM
Fenway...Wrigley... Cameron Indoor.

I hope we never leave.

gep
06-23-2007, 12:06 AM
I'd rather work on ... maybe the way to use the space the undergrads leave empty for so many games.

I recall more and more discussion in the recent years about the student section not being full. I think this is definitely something to pursue. Such as... 5 minutes before tip-off, those standing around outside looking for tickets can pay to get into the student section. This provides 2 positives... [A] the student section will be full, and [B] there would be additional revenue that would not have been there otherwise, since even if the students filled the section, there would be no revenue for those extra bodies. I, for one, would pay and definitely enjoy my one and only visit to Cameron in the student section... even if at the ends... probably more than in the upper sections next to folks that I don't know, and from what's been observed recently, not very vocal fans...

cspan37421
06-23-2007, 12:47 AM
I'm astonished that any home game has empty undergrad seats. During my years it went from you could walk up an hour or two before gametime even for big games (e.g., vs. Oklahoma in '85-'86), to spending 8 hrs in line in a cold rain (UNC 86-87), to not being able to get in at all unless you camped out.

Perhaps it was different for winter break games, but not that I recall. It got to the point - and I had the impression it was still the case - that to see ANY game as an undergrad you had to prove your commitment through tenting, and navigating the associated rules of line checks, etc. Not that I think it is healthy to put hoops above all else in life - but I am shocked to hear that the undergrad section ever has spare room. Either my impressions of 90-06 are wrong or something has changed.

mepanchin
06-23-2007, 01:41 AM
This past year, there were noticeably fewer undergrads than there was in 2006. It was a little sad. Thankfully, the zealous graduate students filled in the gaps and the student section was always full.

merry
06-23-2007, 11:13 AM
Whenever we have this discussion the focus quickly turns to the students. I agree that the student crowd is important, but the upstairs crowd has also declined a lot IMO. I can think of several reasons why this may have happened.

In my fifteen years as a season ticket holder the minimum donation for me to qualify for tickets has tripled. In fact, the minimum donation has gone up twice since 2004, a period during which we didn't make the final four much less win any championships. This has forced out a lot of borderline people like me - people who can't really afford this donation but do it anyway because Duke basketball is their main personal hobby/indulgence. and has brought in instead people who can afford a big donation but who perhaps don't live locally and/or have a busy jobs/lifestyle that involved a lot of things that may conflict with basketball games. They can make the time to come to Durham for 5 or 6 games per year, but not 15+ games including things like UNC-G on a weeknight.

At the same time, there are the people who are grand fathered in, meaning they have had season tickets since 1983 or before. This group includes a lot of great fans, including a number of people who I know post here. It also includes people who no longer live in the area or who have become quite elderly and pass their tickets along to local friends and family.

So you end up with a lot of season ticket holders who practically speaking are not going to come to all of the games. I come to almost all the games but then I live 2 miles from Duke and can for the most part control my business travel to work around the schedule, plus I'm highly incented by the fact that the cost of getting the tickets is a huge percentage of my disposable income.

Duke can't force people who have tickets to come to games. They also don't seem inclined, for understandable reasons, to make it "more affordable" for the average person to qualify. They could probably make it easier for people to turn it their unusable tickets, though. It seems pretty easy to me to turn in seats you cna't use to the Iron Dukes but a lot of people obviously don't do it,

The DBR recently posted a link about how some pro teams have gone to paperless tickets and are connected with a web application where extra tickets can be auctioned off in a controlled environment. Why couldn't Duke do something like that?

People keep saying the student section should be opened up to the general public when it's not full...why not the upstairs as well? Why not pick a time, say the second TV timeout, and if there are empty upstairs seats they could let people in to sit in those. If they went to electronic tickets they'd have an accurate count of how many people were actually in the stands.

gep
06-23-2007, 01:44 PM
Duke can't force people who have tickets to come to games. They also don't seem inclined, for understandable reasons, to make it "more affordable" for the average person to qualify. They could probably make it easier for people to turn it their unusable tickets, though. It seems pretty easy to me to turn in seats you cna't use to the Iron Dukes but a lot of people obviously don't do it,

The DBR recently posted a link about how some pro teams have gone to paperless tickets and are connected with a web application where extra tickets can be auctioned off in a controlled environment. Why couldn't Duke do something like that?

People keep saying the student section should be opened up to the general public when it's not full...why not the upstairs as well? Why not pick a time, say the second TV timeout, and if there are empty upstairs seats they could let people in to sit in those. If they went to electronic tickets they'd have an accurate count of how many people were actually in the stands.

This solution to the upper sections sounds good to me. In fact, why not have an incentive to return tickets that the holder knows will not be used. Like... 1 week before the game, they get $xx refunded, game day $xx refunded, etc. Then, these tickets can be re-sold at face value. Duke doesn't lose anything, the season ticket holder gets something back, and the upper sections fill up again. Also, they could even hold the refund to only if the ticket is actually re-sold (maybe more incentive to "release" their tickets earlier). Then, if the ticket is not re-sold, no one is in an worse position than without the arrangement... except for someone who has to "work" the system.

gvtucker
06-23-2007, 02:49 PM
This solution to the upper sections sounds good to me. In fact, why not have an incentive to return tickets that the holder knows will not be used. Like... 1 week before the game, they get $xx refunded, game day $xx refunded, etc. Then, these tickets can be re-sold at face value. Duke doesn't lose anything, the season ticket holder gets something back, and the upper sections fill up again. Also, they could even hold the refund to only if the ticket is actually re-sold (maybe more incentive to "release" their tickets earlier). Then, if the ticket is not re-sold, no one is in an worse position than without the arrangement... except for someone who has to "work" the system.

There is a system is place that is close to what you're looking for.

If an Iron Duke doesn't use his seats, he can call to a special number at the Iron Duke office and tell them that. The tickets then go to someone on a waiting list at the Iron Duke office. They credit the original ticket holder for a donation to Iron Dukes, and Duke gets the additional revenue of the new sale of the tickets.

I do wish more Iron Dukes would make use of this system, it is modestly cumbersome but it is a way to practically guarantee that the upper section will be full for all games.

merry
06-23-2007, 03:31 PM
I wish more people made use of the Iron Duke ticket system as well. I'm guessing many people do what I do - try to find someone they know to take their tickets and only turn them in to the Iron Dukes as a last resort. Plus I have to wonder what's the benefit of using the Iron Duke system if you've been grand fathered in and aren't making such a big donation. Is the $60 (or whatever it comes to) "contribution credit" you get really that much of an incentive to anyone, particularly to someone who doesn't have to donate the multi-thousands in the first place?

duke2x
06-23-2007, 03:39 PM
As someone who relies primarily on Christmas, road, and NCAA games to watch Duke play in person, I agree. :) Ticketless technologies would help to curb scalping, allow easier transfer of tickets to lesser IDs, etc. It would work better if ID's could get their money back and Duke just sell the same seats as single game tickets to other ID's at double face value (or whatever the market will bear) for each game.

formerdukeathlete
06-24-2007, 09:35 AM
However, the “small” arenas (remembering that initially Cameron was the largest basketball venue south of the Palestra) of past generations are being superseded by modern – and sometime horrendously ugly – structures that frequently seat ten-of-thousands more than Cameron. Even the best of these (UVa’s John Paul Jones Center is a good example) lose many wonderful traits to accommodate several/many thousand more fans (and, obviously, the additional revenue created not only by greater capacity, but also by premium-priced special-box, seating).

Therefore, with this well-known information as background, here is my question. By 2030, will Duke build a new “super-sized” basketball stadium, to compete with the Dean Dome, the RBC Center, and so forth? If so, what will be the impacts – both positive and negative – on Duke Basketball?

USC's new arena - So Cal - is just under 11k. Pitt's new arena is 12.6k. Each has luxury boxes which help with revenue.

When built in 1939 Cameron was the largest of its kind in the South at the time. Its design, with bleacher seating, however was modest. The facility looks like a modest facility.

Tom Butters' study in the mid 1980s I would submit is not valid 20 years later. the population of Raleigh Durham is easily 2 times, if not 3 times as large. The number of Duke alums living in the area has grown tremendously.
For any of you Bill Foster era players out there, feel free to chime in. However, I believe Foster thought Duke needed a new arena as part of a long-term plan to sustain its program. Bubas had reservations about Cameron as to whether it would meet the long-term needs of the University.

The need for a new arena may also become apparent when K retires. No longer will Duke basketball be held together by his skill, will and good deeds. We will need additional revenue to sustain the program. And, a carefully considered, properly sized and configured new arena will need to be part and parcel of increasing revenue.

The number in terms of capacity needs to be at least 12k. This was the sized arena approved by the Duke Trustees in the mid 1980s. I think we go there again for financial reasons. Students can surround the floor. Boxes can be higher up. And season ticket holders sit in between.

Indoor66
06-24-2007, 12:47 PM
However, I believe Foster thought Duke needed a new arena as part of a long-term plan to sustain its program. Bubas had reservations about Cameron as to whether it would meet the long-term needs of the University.

Please delineate the basis for your belief that Bill Foster thought Duke needed a new arena and that Vic Bubas had reservations about Cameron. Both of these men have been my personal friends and I have never heard that.

Olympic Fan
06-24-2007, 01:45 PM
Tom Butters' study in the mid 1980s I would submit is not valid 20 years later. the population of Raleigh Durham is easily 2 times, if not 3 times as large. The number of Duke alums living in the area has grown tremendously.

You miss the point of Butters' study. There was never any question that Duke could fill however many extra seats were added. The expanding population of Durham-Raleigh have nothing to do with that.

What the study concluded is that the extra revenue generated by the extra seats would not pay for the cost of adding the extra seats -- especially not when the reduced contributions that would result (because it would require less of a contribution to buy season tickets) was factored in.

So financially, it makes no sense to expand or replace Cameron. And competitively, if you think Cameron is a disadvantage -- either in terms of recruiting or homecourt advantage during games -- you're nuts. Cameron is a priceless jewel -- the second-greatest asset that Duke basketball has (after Krzyzewski).

As for my earlier remarks about filling the empty seats in Cameron -- I quite agree that the empty seats upstairs are as big or bigger a problem than the unused student seats. I know the Iron Dukes have a mechanism to fill those seats, but it is clumsy and only minimally effective.

Stray Gator
06-24-2007, 03:01 PM
...The problem is that every seat is sold before the season opens -- either to season ticket holders who have to either be grandfathered into their tickets or to make a large contribution just to purchase the tickets; or to students (both grad and ungrad) who are allotted a significant proportion of Cameron's seats.

The growing problem is that so many fans are only interested in the really big games, that for anything other than Duke-Carolina or maybe Duke-Maryland or Duke-UCLA or whatever, a significant number of season ticket holders and even students don't use their tickets/space.

There are literally thousands and thousands of ordinary Duke fans who can't afford the contribution required to get season tickets who would kill to buy tickets. Or they would pay to stand in the corners that the Duke students don't fill up for the Cornell game or when UNC Greensboro comes....

Personally, rather than talk about replacing Cameron, I'd rather work on a better method to distrubute (even re-sell) unused tickets and maybe the way to use the space the undergrads leave empty for so many games.

*******************

Another part of the problem, IMO, is that every time the Iron Dukes raise the minimum contribution required to qualify for season tickets--as they're doing again this year--it forces out more of the ordinary Duke fans and replaces them with corporate sponsors, who can better afford the expense but typically do not match the level of genuine enthusiasm for the team or the game. As a season ticket holder myself, I can identify a number of nearby seats that are obviously held by people or companies who have little or no interest in attending the games themselves, but let various friends or clients use the tickets--all too often, friends or clients who happen to be fans of the opposing team. Between that growing phenomenon and the recent appearance of empty areas of the student section at some home games, the Cameron atmosphere and experience is not as consistently intense as it was just a few years ago.

formerdukeathlete
06-24-2007, 03:38 PM
Please delineate the basis for your belief that Bill Foster thought Duke needed a new arena and that Vic Bubas had reservations about Cameron. Both of these men have been my personal friends and I have never heard that.

Bill Foster spoke with my frat in college - as he did with many residential groups upon request. I distinctly remember him commented about complaints he had received from faculty admin types about money being spent on basketball. Once he was called late in the night after a loss to Carolina, with the faculty person yelling, "Why the hel* are we spending so much on basketball when you cannot even beat Carolina..." Foster then commented that the University hasn't seen anything yet. He complained about his players lifting weights in the basement of the pool building, and that he believed the University will need to replace Cameron at some point to improve recruiting. Vic Bubas - I can only reiterate what I was told by his daughter, a Duke grad, and a school teacher at the time - Cameron was inadequate and the University's resistance toward doing something about it was a goodly part of his reason to retire from coaching.

Re replacing Cameron, among Foster era players, I believe the consensus was that they hoped it would happen - without putting specific words in their mouths, players I recall speaking in this regard include: Mark Crow, Jim Spanarkal, Tate Armstrong, Bob Bender.

As to talk about Cameron being this gem, well it works as a venue making up for its small size when all of the stars are aligned, Duke has a good record, and the student section is hysterical.

Stray is on to something about the upper deck and corporate sponsors.

And, Butters study is ancient history.

With luxury boxes, you have the non-fans who are being taken to the game in the boxes, and if for some reason the boxes are empty, this does not impact the crowd very much. Regular season ticket holders pay something for the privilege - but less than the equivalent today - and revenue per seat is more than made up by what sponsors of luxury boxes pay at the outset and in annual renewal fees. Total revenue is also higher because you have at least 3,000 more upper deck seats. Regarding the cost, amortization of the cost, and whether or not this is justified - if a new arena is useful anywhere close to as long as has been Cameron, I think the cost is recovered plus interest many times. And, if, ultimately, as I suspect, playing in front of larger crowds is necessary in order for Duke to attract top recruits and top coaches, one has to compare the costs to the University of not having a top flight basketball program - these costs are immeasurable.

The only constant in life is change. Cameron is a small old arena with good atmosphere. It will not server the University's needs indefinitely. I suggest it not be demo-ed, but rather kept for volleyball, womens games, wrestling, much like Carmichael at Chapel Hill.

Bob Green
06-24-2007, 06:04 PM
Vic Bubas - I can only reiterate what I was told by his daughter, a Duke grad, and a school teacher at the time - Cameron was inadequate and the University's resistance toward doing something about it was a goodly part of his reason to retire from coaching.

And, if, ultimately, as I suspect, playing in front of larger crowds is necessary in order for Duke to attract top recruits and top coaches, one has to compare the costs to the University of not having a top flight basketball program - these costs are immeasurable.



I have always been under the impression that Vic Bubas retired from coaching due to the rigors of nationwide recruiting. Your comment is the first time I've ever heard the possibility of a connection between Bubas' retirement and the inadequacy of CIS.

As far as playing in front of larger crowds, almost every Duke game is on national TV. Additionally, Duke routinely plays neutral site games in large venues (MSG/Meadowlands). Moreover, Duke does not have a problem attracting top recruits - just look at the number of Big Macs on our 2007-2008 roster.

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

formerdukeathlete
06-25-2007, 10:53 AM
I have always been under the impression that Vic Bubas retired from coaching due to the rigors of nationwide recruiting. Your comment is the first time I've ever heard the possibility of a connection between Bubas' retirement and the inadequacy of CIS.

As far as playing in front of larger crowds, almost every Duke game is on national TV. Additionally, Duke routinely plays neutral site games in large venues (MSG/Meadowlands). Moreover, Duke does not have a problem attracting top recruits - just look at the number of Big Macs on our 2007-2008 roster.

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

The caption is of course a standard disclaimer included with investment management accounts composite performance numbers.

Yes, WITH K, we have had good luck recruiting and have done well. Bubas cited the basketball arena as being problematical in recruiting. As you note, he grew tired of nationwide recruiting. If he had a larger budget and better arena, would he have grown so tired so quickly? When K retires, will Duke be able to lure recruits as easily when we no longer have the best coach? Because most likely we will not have the best coach. (Reversion to the mean - another investment management parlance) But, we will need revenue to try to lure the best coach. Look at Billy Boy's contract. We will need at least 2 million in additiional basketball revenue in my estimation. And, where will this come from? Additional donations? But, what if the basketball program is underperforming? Will Iron Dukes be able to fill the gap? I suggest that a new arena is a hedge (yes, even another) against an inevitable decline in the program.

When considering what to do with Cameron, I believe the University should take the best of Cameron and incorporate this into a larger, revenue maximizing facility. Perhaps bleachers on the floor to allow students to sit together un-separated by aisles. Luxury boxes up top or just above the student section, and season ticket holders everywhere else.

Now that the bloom is off the rose regarding Florida as a retirment destination (hurricanes, overcrowding), there is another trend worth mentioning. That is, that retiring alums of Universities are retiring near where they spent 4 of the most enjoyable years of their lives. Hanover New Hampshire is overrun by Dartmouth alum retirees. So is Madison Wisconsin a popular retirement area for U of Wisc. alums. What I would infer is that there will be more and more Duke alums in the Raleigh Durham area.

Build a new arena. Have luxury boxes where corporate entertain-ees can have catered food and adult beverage. Let more alums in. And keep the student section on the floor.

Duke nets (after amortization of costs of a new arena) a couple more million a year. Duke can hire Billy Boy away from Florida, and, or, money is left over to help the Football program and or help fund other varsity sports at Duke.

Most importantly, in my view, is that this is a hedge against a decline in the basketball program.

jjasper0729
06-25-2007, 04:36 PM
Well UNC is a state school so many, if not most, of the students come from NC and stay in NC, and the triangle area is obviously a hot spot for college grads. Duke students come largely from out of state and not nearly as many stay in the state after graduation so our fan base isn't as close by.

Also, and people from NC can correct me, but I think it is more common if you are born in NC and your parents dont have any alegiance, to root for UNC or NC State and not duke

Being from NC (all but 3 years of my life), my parents had no allegiances other than my father's brother went to NCSU. I actually grew up as a Duke fan (and later grad).

It is true though that being a state school, UNC and NCSU get the lion's share of alumni. The same issue Duke has with local fan base is true of Wake Forest too. There are locals in Durham that do like Duke, but not to the extent that there and the surrounding areas like UNC or NCSU.

As far as Cameron getting supersized and not being able to fill it now, I have been to every home game in the last 7 years save less than 10 over that span. There have been a few games where the upper deck was not full (fall semester games) and/or the student section was no where near full. I've counted in the last couple of seasons too many games against very good teams where the students haven't filled up the bleachers by tip off (shame on them). The other issue is Iron Dukes that sell their tickets outside the stadium for fans of the other team as well.

I don't think they'll be getting rid of Cameron any time soon. They are adding on too many additions right now that are state of the art and will be for a while (Schwartz-Butters, K Academic Excellence) to scrap them and get somethign else. If anything, they could possibly go the Ok. St. route and expand out and up on the current structure (as long as they at least try to get the same blue stone so it doesn't stick out like the structure on the east side of cameron now).

formerdukeathlete
06-25-2007, 11:24 PM
I don't think they'll be getting rid of Cameron any time soon. They are adding on too many additions right now that are state of the art and will be for a while (Schwartz-Butters, K Academic Excellence) to scrap them and get somethign else. If anything, they could possibly go the Ok. St. route and expand out and up on the current structure (as long as they at least try to get the same blue stone so it doesn't stick out like the structure on the east side of cameron now).

Renovating Cameron to increase seating capacity and to add luxury boxes - I believe proposals have been reviewed to do this, perhaps even in the not so distant past. Expressed concern - whether Cameron would lose it character. I am not sure how much room there is to do this - to increase capacity through renovation enough to make it wroth the trouble. Then, there is the problem of where do you play basketball while the renovation takes place. Renovating Cameron could take a year and a half.

John Paul Jones at UVa has an adjacent practive facility. So does So Cal's new arena. The Cameron complex stays in my view when Duke builds a new basketball arena. The basketball tower and practice facilty fit nicely by Cameron. Cameron becomes another practice floor adjacent to these newer buildings. Cameron is ideal for women's games, wrestling and volleyball. The new basketball arena at Duke can be stand-alone with convenient parking and good road access.

A third alternative would be to kill two birds with one stone - build a combined new football and basketball stadium. This seems unlikely - two large a venue for basketball for Duke to retain its traditional home court advantage, though Wade could use to be replaced as well.