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JasonEvans
04-21-2007, 11:45 PM
Poll of Duke fans wishes...

JasonEvans
04-21-2007, 11:50 PM
The Howard option is probably not fair. I guess I should remove it. I could replace it with "2 more years of McBob" but I think it would be embarassing to have a Big fat zero next to his poll option.

-Jason "did I leave anybody out?" Evans

JasonEvans
04-21-2007, 11:52 PM
FWIW, I voted for Elton. folks may forget how dominant he was -- what an amazing shot blocker he was in college -- on both ends of the floor. We hang a pair of extra banners if he sticks around though I voted for him because I loved just watching him play around the basket. You don't see that in college ball anymore.

-Jason "then again, 3 more years of Deng is probably worth an extra national title or two as well" Evans

fan345678
04-22-2007, 12:09 AM
unless you're counting the 2001 banner as an "extra." I don't think we missed Elton (or Corey, or Avery) too much his "senior" year.

NYC Duke Fan
04-22-2007, 01:28 AM
The Howard option is probably not fair. I guess I should remove it. I could replace it with "2 more years of McBob" but I think it would be embarassing to have a Big fat zero next to his poll option.

-Jason "did I leave anybody out?" Evans

If you put Howard in then you would also have to include Kobe who said that Duke was his first choice if he didn't go to the NBA

dukelifer
04-22-2007, 06:57 AM
I went with Deng because that would have given JJ and Shel a championship. My second choice was another year for JWill- because maybe he would have one more championship- the all time ACC and Duke scoring record and he might have been drafted by a different team- so perhaps the accident would have never happened.

Buckeye Devil
04-22-2007, 07:21 AM
Could have brought another NC in the 2002-03 year. I think Syracuse won it all that year and Duke would have been better than the Orange if they would have stayed. I think that hurt more than the defections of Brand, Avery, and Maggette in 99.

rthomas
04-22-2007, 08:57 AM
I know I started the "wish Deng stayed for 3 more years below" but I voted for one more year of JWill (maybe just maybe, he'd still be in the NBA), Dun (maybe, just maybe, he'd never be drafted by Golden State) and Boozer.

devildownunder
04-22-2007, 09:03 AM
because, of all of them, that's the one I am 100 percent certain would have resulted in another championship.

calltheobvious
04-22-2007, 10:37 AM
1999 Duke vs. 2006 Duke-plus-Deng

Elton v Shelden -- Wash (senior Shelden v. soph. Elton)
Avery v. Paulus --Big edge on both ends to Avery
Trajan v JJ --Slight edge to JJ because of superior range
Battier v. Luol --Significant Edge to Louie b/c Shane's offense was not
nearly as polished in '99 as it was by '01
CC v. McRoberts -- Tough match-up for both players. CC would simply
slough off of McRoberts beyond 15 ft, and take his
chances in the post. We saw what CC did to Duncan
at wake in TD's senior season; long night for Josh. But
I don't see how CC makes much hay on the offensive
end either, given who's waiting for him in the paint when
he does drive past Josh.
Maggette and Burgess
v.
Melchionni and Nelson--This one's different on paper than it is inside tv sets.
Maggette only played 8 minutes against UConn, and I
see this one essentially the same way in terms of
minutes. Slight edge to '99 b/c of limited minutes.

The '99 team was the best I've ever seen, and I'm blown away by what I take to be the fact that '06 Duke-plus-Deng would have been very competitive against the earlier group.

JasonEvans
04-22-2007, 10:54 AM
1999 Duke vs. 2006 Duke-plus-Deng

Elton v Shelden -- Wash (senior Shelden v. soph. Elton)

Just so we are clear, I love Shelden and he was a true BEAST in college, but Soph Elton was NATIONAL PLAYER OF THE YEAR and a mega-stud. I think you have to give this edge to 1999. No one contained Elton that year. He was a man playing with boys.

I'll say this-- it would have been a fun matchup to watch.

-Jason "I also think JJ's advantage over Trajan is larger than you indicate" Evans

JasonEvans
04-22-2007, 10:56 AM
If you put Howard in then you would also have to include Kobe who said that Duke was his first choice if he didn't go to the NBA

True-- I forgot about Kobe. But, if I put 4-year-of-Kobe as an option, we would all probably vote for it. It is pretty much a given that we win national titles in 1998, 1999, and perhaps 2000 with Kobe on those teams. 1999 team including Kobe would have been arguably the greatest in NCAA history.

Lord Ash
04-22-2007, 11:06 AM
Deng, so JJ could have a few titles.

Oh... and SLIGHT edge JJ over Trajan?

Listen, I love the Alaskan Assassin, but JJ Redick is in a whole other STRATOSPHERE over Trajan. Not even close.

CDu
04-22-2007, 12:46 PM
1999 Duke vs. 2006 Duke-plus-Deng

Elton v Shelden -- Wash (senior Shelden v. soph. Elton)
Avery v. Paulus --Big edge on both ends to Avery
Trajan v JJ --Slight edge to JJ because of superior range
Battier v. Luol --Significant Edge to Louie b/c Shane's offense was not
nearly as polished in '99 as it was by '01
CC v. McRoberts -- Tough match-up for both players. CC would simply
slough off of McRoberts beyond 15 ft, and take his
chances in the post. We saw what CC did to Duncan
at wake in TD's senior season; long night for Josh. But
I don't see how CC makes much hay on the offensive
end either, given who's waiting for him in the paint when
he does drive past Josh.
Maggette and Burgess
v.
Melchionni and Nelson--This one's different on paper than it is inside tv sets.
Maggette only played 8 minutes against UConn, and I
see this one essentially the same way in terms of
minutes. Slight edge to '99 b/c of limited minutes.

The '99 team was the best I've ever seen, and I'm blown away by what I take to be the fact that '06 Duke-plus-Deng would have been very competitive against the earlier group.


The '99 team would have killed the '06 team:

C - Brand would have handled Williams. We may forget, but Brand was a man amongst boys in college. He made everyone look bad. Remember: Sean May put up big numbers against Williams. Brand would have done so and then some.

PF - Battier was far superior to McRoberts. People say his offensive game wasn't refined, but I think that was more a function of being a team player (the '99 team had tons of weapons, so Battier didn't need to score). Freshman McRoberts was often a non-factor.

SF - We'd probably put Battier on Deng, and have Carrawell guard McRoberts. Battier made his name guarding the other team's best player. I think the '99 team wins both of those matchups.

SG - Here's the one place that the '06 team has the edge (and a big edge). Langdon would NOT be able to contain Redick. I bet we'd see a lot of Maggette and James on him, though. Redick could chase Langdon around screens. Up to 20 feet, the two had similar skill. But '06 Redick combined much deeper range with the ability to attack the basket.

PG - Avery wins this one hands down. He's a better scorer and better shooter than '06 Paulus (though not '07 Paulus), a better playmaker, and a better defender.

Bench:
C - Burgess vs. Randolph (Burgess wins, though it's close).
G/F - Maggette vs. Nelson. Maggette wins comfortably. Maggette was even MORE athletic than a healthy Nelson (he was incredible), and he was a better offensive player. And Nelson wasn't really healthy.
G/F - James vs. Melchionni. James wins comfortably. He is more versatile and a better defender. '06 Melchionni didn't really do much productively (his shot in '06 deserted him, and that was his best attribute).
C - Domzalski vs. Johnson. Again, this isn't close. Domzalski was a high-school All-American and former starter, Johnson was a baseball player.

So the '99 team wins at least 3 of the 5 starting spots, and dominates off the bench. And the '99 team had the versatility and depth to match up such that Redick would have been the only dangerous player on the '06 team. I think the '99 team would have dominated the '06 team. The '06 team could win the occasional matchup when Redick was on fire and Brand/Battier got in foul trouble. But I'd take the '99 team in 9 of 10 games.

throatybeard
04-22-2007, 12:51 PM
All of this "we definitely would have won another championship if X had stayed" is really absurd. It's a single-elimination tournament, and stuff happens.

That said, I too voted for the Luol option, because his counterfactual scenario seems to best bridge the gap between possibly excellent counterfactual teams teams and actual very good teams in 2005, 2006 and 2007.

johnnydakota
04-22-2007, 02:03 PM
The Howard option is probably not fair. I guess I should remove it. I could replace it with "2 more years of McBob" but I think it would be embarassing to have a Big fat zero next to his poll option.

-Jason "did I leave anybody out?" Evans

wow.......

Lord Ash
04-22-2007, 02:20 PM
If I may wander off topic, I think more people are disappointed because they felt like Josh, despite his fantastic skills and basketball ability, wasn't always what seemed to be a good teammate and didn't seem to quite embody the "Duke Way."

Just my two cents, very sorry for dragging things off topic. To get it back ON topic; you are CRAZY to say you would have voted for Josh to come back. Josh over Luol? Josh over JWill and Co.? Even Josh over 4 years of Sean Livingston is a huge stretch (we would have won a championship last year with Sean I think; I think a 6'8" pg with those skills would have been almost unguardable.) So to bring it back on topic, I don't think that option is really needed.

pless55
04-22-2007, 04:38 PM
Luol Deng.

Forrest
04-22-2007, 05:03 PM
I don't know, Jason. I like playing 'what-if' as well as anyone, but most of the choices are too far-fetched to even consider. If we restrict the choices to the five which are 'kinda sorta maybe possibly likely,' one more year of:

Maggette
Dunleavy
Deng
Livingston
Randolph

Which would people prefer? I'd go with Deng, no contest, because he'd have been first-team A-A in 2005, *supported* by Williams, Redick, and Ewing. That team could have won it all, which would be one more for Duke and one less for the Heels - yet another reason to wish Luol, of all players, had stuck it out one more year.

Forrest

Madrasdukie
04-22-2007, 06:21 PM
-Jason "did I leave anybody out?" Evans

This is nitpicking but there was Mr. Humphrey (sp. ?) who was supposed to be a Dukie in '04. And, wasn't there some talk of Baron Davis wanting to come to Duke ?

My vote is for Luol.

SilkyJ
04-22-2007, 06:38 PM
[B][I] And, wasn't there some talk of Baron Davis wanting to come to Duke ?

He went to UCLA for two years then went pro.

OZZIE4DUKE
04-22-2007, 09:59 PM
I started to vote for Elton, because 2 more years of him would have led to a title in 2000 and keeping the title we won in 2001, but I ended up voting for Sean Livingston, because he could have led us to titles in 2005 and 2006, maybe last year and definitely next year. I remember how excited some of our recruiting "guru's" were over getting Livingston's commitment, even if it was for only one year. I for one am disappointed we didn't get to see him at all, but that is just me being selfish for Duke. What could have been ... was.

rthomas
04-22-2007, 10:04 PM
Dude, Baron Davis? He went to some second rate school, if I recall.

Madrasdukie
04-22-2007, 10:20 PM
He went to UCLA for two years then went pro.

Right, I was aware of the fact that Baron Davis went to UCLA, the question was if he was recruited by Duke, then shouldn't he warrant a place in this poll la Kris Humphries in 2004 who ended up playing for Minnesota.

Indoor66
04-23-2007, 07:02 AM
Hey Ozzie, if hop toads had longer legs, they wouldn't bump their butts. lol

DankeShane
04-23-2007, 07:14 AM
I can't believe how little love Elton is getting!

yancem
04-23-2007, 08:20 AM
I can't believe how little love Elton is getting!

Yeah but I think that people are voting based on how a player staying would have effected Duke's seasons. We won the title in 2001 so we couln't have done much better that year. That leaves only 2000 for Brand to make a change in outcome, where as 3 years of Deng probably would have brought at least 1 and maybe 2 more banners to Cameron.

I would have loved to have seen Maggette play in a starring role for a year or two. Not only do I think that it would have helped Duke in 2000 and would have been fun to watch but with the additional exposure and experience he might be a perenial all star and multiple product endorser. Of course have him stay would probably meant ncaa sanctions so I think that I will cast my vote elsewhere.

captmojo
04-23-2007, 08:20 AM
I voted for Elton. What a dominance.

CMS2478
04-23-2007, 09:05 AM
Since another red-shirted year of Nick Horvath wasn't an option. :D

RepoMan
04-23-2007, 09:08 AM
Have to go with Brand. He was dominant from Day 1. No other team had a player who could match him. Imagine the force he would have been his Senior year.

SilkyJ
04-23-2007, 09:08 AM
Right, I was aware of the fact that Baron Davis went to UCLA, the question was if he was recruited by Duke, then shouldn't he warrant a place in this poll à la Kris Humphries in 2004 who ended up playing for Minnesota.

Humphries SIGNED a LETTER OF INTENT with Duke and was coming here until his dad got fresh with K, and we dumped him. Davis may have been interested, but we never signed him to an LOI.

So, if we include Davis that would be opening a large can of worms. That would mean we would have to include all players who Duke was ever interested in or recruited, and then that played at another school.

johnb
04-23-2007, 09:35 AM
How about Bill Bradley? He actually showed up on campus before running off to Princeton (rules were different back then...)

RockyMtDevil
04-23-2007, 10:55 AM
I'll take Deng over all the above...Combining him JJ, Shelden, Daniel would have lead to a final four three years ago, and JJ's senior year wouldn't have ended at LSU..

I say two more Final Four's with Deng.

Funny, Josh may be remembered like Shav. In three years we will be sayin, "who"? Oh yeah, they guy with all the potnetial who couldn't put the ball in the basket....

mgtr
04-23-2007, 11:30 AM
Deng, Deng, Deng. That is what I call ringing the bell! Hands down choice for me.

ikiru36
04-23-2007, 05:10 PM
As another noted, the J-Will, Dun, Boozer is easy for me just for the chance that J-Will might not have been on that bike, that day...

And 02-03 could've been a best-ever contender w/

1 C. Duhon
2 J. Will
3 M. Dunleavy
4 C. Boozer (actually playing his proper position, 20 pounds lighter)
5 S. Williams

Bench
1 Dockery
1/2 Ewing
2 Redick
3 Dahntay
4 Shav
4 Horvath
5 Sanders

I loved Elton, but agree that since we won in 2001 anyways, that makes him a tough pick.

Sentimentality for J Will aside, I'd have to go with Deng. Unless I'm mis-remembering, part of Livingston's choice to jump related to/closely followed Deng's decision so just by Deng staying we might have had Livingston for a year or two (possibly saving him from his own fateful day of injury...). Deng for 4 years and Livingston for 2 would've pretty much guaranteed 1 (and possibly 2 or 3 more National Championships while keeping UNC from one).

Definitely, more than any other such decision (though I certainly don't begrudge him for it), his leaving that early threw Duke's future planning off in ways that we are just now recovering from.

Go Duke!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mapei
04-23-2007, 05:16 PM
I voted for Elton. I can't remember Duke ever having another player like him. I loved Shel and liked Carlos, but Brand was on another level.

I might have voted for another year of JWill, too. To me he was a lot more special than Dunleavy or Boozer and I don't really group them together when I think of him.

I agree that having Deng, JJ and Shel on the same team would have been something to watch.

I liked Josh's game a lot more than most of you, I guess.

tombrady
04-23-2007, 06:02 PM
Sentimentality for J Will aside, I'd have to go with Deng. Unless I'm mis-remembering, part of Livingston's choice to jump related to/closely followed Deng's decision so just by Deng staying we might have had Livingston for a year or two (possibly saving him from his own fateful day of injury...). Deng for 4 years and Livingston for 2 would've pretty much guaranteed 1 (and possibly 2 or 3 more National Championships while keeping UNC from one).

Definitely, more than any other such decision (though I certainly don't begrudge him for it), his leaving that early threw Duke's future planning off in ways that we are just now recovering from.

Go Duke!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think this whole "pretty much guaranteed" national championships thing is so so stupid. if you really think that, i don't know what to say. perhaps a near-guaranteed final four, but championship is so much harder.

remember this time 2 years ago, when everyone was like "well, if redick or shel stays, man we'll be a strong contender, but if they both stay, man we'll probably win the national championship." and then we lost in the sweet 16. with two of the top 5 players in the country. theres no way you can make these national championship claims, it sounds so fanboy its ridiculous.

i would expect this on inside carolina -- "man if we can keep b. wright, we're gonna win it all next year no doubt !!11!!!!loL!" :D :eek: :cool: :mad:

mgtr
04-24-2007, 01:33 AM
How many freshmen at Duke have come in and made the contributions that Deng did? And showed the promise for the future as well? This is really a straight question, because I don't know. There cannot have been many.

Indoor66
04-24-2007, 06:38 AM
How many freshmen at Duke have come in and made the contributions that Deng did? And showed the promise for the future as well? This is really a straight question, because I don't know. There cannot have been many.

Off hand, I can think of Gene Banks, Mike Giminski, Grant Hill, Elton Brand, Jason Williams, and I am sure there are others. Some who would have were hindered by the freshman rules of old.

yancem
04-24-2007, 08:35 AM
Off hand, I can think of Gene Banks, Mike Giminski, Grant Hill, Elton Brand, Jason Williams, and I am sure there are others. Some who would have were hindered by the freshman rules of old.

I'd probably add Dawkins (18 points, 5 assists and 4 rebounds a game)to the list but otherwise I agree.

mgtr
04-24-2007, 09:32 AM
Now that would make a mighty fine all-freshmen team! Quite impressive.

ikiru36
04-24-2007, 03:03 PM
I think this whole "pretty much guaranteed" national championships thing is so so stupid. if you really think that, i don't know what to say. perhaps a near-guaranteed final four, but championship is so much harder.

remember this time 2 years ago, when everyone was like "well, if redick or shel stays, man we'll be a strong contender, but if they both stay, man we'll probably win the national championship." and then we lost in the sweet 16. with two of the top 5 players in the country. theres no way you can make these national championship claims, it sounds so fanboy its ridiculous.

i would expect this on inside carolina -- "man if we can keep b. wright, we're gonna win it all next year no doubt !!11!!!!loL!" :D :eek: :cool: :mad:

TB,

It's hard for me to understand how, especially given that I even included the "pretty much," you would come back with such a harsh post (with no response of your own regarding the question at hand). This is a thread regarding speculating about what might have happened in the past, if something else in the past were different. It seemed obvious to me that this generally implies a more "fun" discussion centered on reminiscences and wishes, not verifiable prognostication.

In any event, I would stand by my "pretty much" as I clearly included in my 'prediction' that Deng staying may have led Livingston to stay as well. If you want to quibble with my guess that the following team would very likely have beaten LSU and was solidly better than sophomore-laden Florida (and the rest of the field) in '06, go right ahead.

starters
1 Livingston-sophomore
2 Redick-senior
3 Deng-junior
4 McRoberts-freshman
5 Williams-senior

bench
1 Paulus-freshman
1/2 Dockery-senior
2/3 Nelson-sophomore
2/3 Pocius-freshman
3 Melchionni-senior
4 Boykin-freshman
5 Boateng-freshman
Coach K

Go Duke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mgtr
04-24-2007, 05:55 PM
ikiru36-

Hard to argue that that would have been one great team. Even if you just add Deng to the mix, but with Livingston also ----- unbelievable. Deng and Livingston would have outathleted (OK, its not a word) LSU, that is for sure. And that is where we got beat.

Uncle Drew
04-24-2007, 10:22 PM
Great post Jason. But my vote would have to go to Kobe if only for one season. Can you imagine if Brand, Avery and Maggette had stayed on WITH Kobe? Throw in Boozer, Mikey D, J-Will and Battier and THAT Would be the greatest college basketball team EVER assembled. UNC fans love to scream about the players they have lost to early entry, with good reason. But we can always tout the team that never was to take on any team they could have put on the floor.

dukeENG2003
04-25-2007, 08:01 AM
after last nights Bulls game, is there any doubt that we'd want Luol Deng?

SilkyJ
04-25-2007, 11:34 AM
after last nights Bulls game, is there any doubt that we'd want Luol Deng?

Not one ounce.

pamtar
04-25-2007, 09:37 PM
I think more people are disappointed because they felt like Josh, despite his fantastic skills and basketball ability, wasn't always what seemed to be a good teammate and didn't seem to quite embody the "Duke Way."

I posted a reply like this one right after the VCU loss and it got deleted by the mod. Maybe, I can slip this one through.
I think Josh was the worst fit Duke has seen in a long time. Whine, whine all the time. No wonder K completely supported his decision. He's had choice words for all other early entries besides Jwil, Elton, and Boozer.