Calipari's Legacy: Memphis to vacate all wins from 07-08

[airowe]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4410862

[OldSchool]

If this does turn out to have resulted from the situation of Derrick Rose, it just reinforces what K has been saying - we should let these phenoms go straight to the NBA.

[mgtr]

Winning covers up a lot of sins.

[madscavenger]

(and the shots need a rim).

Just musing whether the NCAA would have been a wee bit more lenient had the Tigers won the whole shebang. i don't really have an opinion on this, but i'd like to hear yours.

[airowe]

I think the bigger question here is when will the NCAA start punishing coaches instead of (or in addition to) programs? Too many of them get away before the punishment comes down and don't face any sanctions at their new schools. I've heard monetary penalties suggested, especially for coaches who either leave coaching altogether or who leave the NCAA and I don't think its too bad of an idea.

[basket1544]

I disagree with the NCAA punishing the school instead of the coach and the players that did the actual dead. I'm not sure how to change this, but Memphis' new coach shouldn't be left with less scholarships or be kept out of the tournament while Kentucky reaps the benefits of getting Calipari out in time. I like that Memphis' record for Rose's season may be vacated (ala UMass) because that at least puts an asterick by Calipari's win-loss record.
-Basket1544

[airowe]

I disagree with the NCAA punishing the school instead of the coach and the players that did the actual dead. I'm not sure how to change this, but Memphis' new coach shouldn't be left with less scholarships or be kept out of the tournament while Kentucky reaps the benefits of getting Calipari out in time. I like that Memphis' record for Rose's season may be vacated (ala UMass) because that at least puts an asterick by Calipari's win-loss record.
-Basket1544

It doesn't look like Memphis' current coach or players will be punished here so NCAA got it half-right. Now, if they could get some concrete proof on Cal and limit his "live" recruiting period by a couple months...

[whereinthehellami]

Seems like some people are saying that Memphis shouldn't be held accountable for hiring Cal despite knowing that he was a win at all costs coach (see UMASS). Coach Cal has been around awhile and is one of the more questionable coaches when it comes to ethics. There is no way that Memphis was innocent when hiring Cal. They wanted to win, no matter the cost.

[airowe]

Seems like some people are saying that Memphis shouldn't be held accountable for hiring Cal despite knowing that he was a win at all costs coach (see UMASS). Coach Cal has been around awhile and is one of the more questionable coaches when it comes to ethics. There is no way that Memphis was innocent when hiring Cal. They wanted to win, no matter the cost.

I'm certainly not saying that. I think the punishment Memphis is receiving is fair. 38 wins vacated, Final Four, Regional Championship banners taken down seems appropriate. But, I don't see why Josh Pastner should be punished more than Cal for something that happened under Cal's watch and I don't think Memphis should be punished any less than Cal.

[studdlee10]

I'm certainly not saying that. I think the punishment Memphis is receiving is fair. 38 wins vacated, Final Four, Regional Championship banners taken down seems appropriate. But, I don't see why Josh Pastner should be punished more than Cal for something that happened under Cal's watch and I don't think Memphis should be punished any less than Cal.

Personally, I think both Memphis and Cal got off too light. Lets not act like Memphis was not complicit in all of Cal's shady dealings. The school knowingly hired a coach who had been caught before and was known to have a checkered past. The school, not Cal, provided a private jet (courtesy of FedEx) and allowed WWW and the FedEx internship program to go on. That is not all on Cal, that is on Memphis. That does not even begin to address the fact that Pastner himself has a bit of reputation as well. It is telling that Arizona did not go hard after him to fill their vacancy.

My feelings for Calipari are pretty well documented. He is scum. The fact that he gets off with no punishment is sickening to me. This isn't his first dance. Not only was he busted at UMass but his list of shady dealings at Memphis go far beyond the Rose incident. College basketball would be better off without the Caliparis, etc of the world. Unfortunately, the NCAA is powerless and gutless.

[thewiseben]

Personally, I think both Memphis and Cal got off too light. Lets not act like Memphis was not complicit in all of Cal's shady dealings. The school knowingly hired a coach who had been caught before and was known to have a checkered past. The school, not Cal, provided a private jet (courtesy of FedEx) and allowed WWW and the FedEx internship program to go on. That is not all on Cal, that is on Memphis. That does not even begin to address the fact that Pastner himself has a bit of reputation as well. It is telling that Arizona did not go hard after him to fill their vacancy.

My feelings for Calipari are pretty well documented. He is scum. The fact that he gets off with no punishment is sickening to me. This isn't his first dance. Not only was he busted at UMass but his list of shady dealings at Memphis go far beyond the Rose incident. College basketball would be better off without the Caliparis, etc of the world. Unfortunately, the NCAA is powerless and gutless.

I dislike Calipari as much or more than most due to his creepy demeanor, the fact that he's left schools and players high and dry, and his all-around air of sliminess, but his critics often make vague and wild accusations about how much wrongdoing the guy has been involved with. Maybe he helped Rose cheat, maybe John Wall and Eric Bledsoe had help achieving academic eligibility, maybe he shot JFK from the grassy knoll, I do not know. But I have never seen or heard any conclusive evidence.

I will grant anyone that the circumstantial evidence against him on some of these things is pretty suspicious, but what evidence do we really have to back up our claims that the guy is a devil (and not in the good way)?

Has any assistant, school administrator, parent, or student-athlete ever said anything substantive? What about the players who chose other schools?

Has anyone got anything solid or are we all going on hearsay? I'm fine if that's what we're going with, because as I stated above, the guy seems like slime, but I'd sure love a little something to justify this feeling of nausea.

[JasonEvans]

2 comments--

Firstly, Calipari is now 2-for-2 in having Final Four appearances vacated... and at two different schools with each appearance many years apart. That is quite an accomplishment. I don't think any other crook coach has complied a record like that. Tark the Shark comes sorta close, having left Long Beach State on probation and then leading UNLV to endless NCAA clashes. But Tark never made a Final Four at Long Beach and several of his Final Fours at UNLV remain in the NCAA record books.

Second comment-- with Memphis vacating all 38 of those wins, it restores an important record to Duke. The record for most wins in a season was 37 before Memphis won those 38 games. The teams that won 37 games are -- Duke, 1986 (37-3), UNLV, 1987 (37-2), Duke, 1999 (37-2), and Illinois, 2005 (37-2).

--Jason "interesting side note-- all of those teams lost the championship game and their chance at win #38" Evans

[roywhite]

I dislike Calipari as much or more than most due to his creepy demeanor, the fact that he's left schools and players high and dry, and his all-around air of sliminess, but his critics often make vague and wild accusations about how much wrongdoing the guy has been involved with. Maybe he helped Rose cheat, maybe John Wall and Eric Bledsoe had help achieving academic eligibility, maybe he shot JFK from the grassy knoll, I do not know. But I have never seen or heard any conclusive evidence.

I will grant anyone that the circumstantial evidence against him on some of these things is pretty suspicious, but what evidence do we really have to back up our claims that the guy is a devil (and not in the good way)?

Has any assistant, school administrator, parent, or student-athlete ever said anything substantive? What about the players who chose other schools?

Has anyone got anything solid or are we all going on hearsay? I'm fine if that's what we're going with, because as I stated above, the guy seems like slime, but I'd sure love a little something to justify this feeling of nausea.

True enough in a legal, "burden of proof" type context. Cal doesn't seem to leave fingerprints.

Where he goes, trouble follows. Two Final Four appearance "vacated" is IMO the strongest "evidence" against his coaching methods and ethics.

[crimsonandblue]

2 comments--

Firstly, Calipari is now 2-for-2 in having Final Four appearances vacated... and at two different schools with each appearance many years apart. That is quite an accomplishment. I don't think any other crook coach has complied a record like that. Tark the Shark comes sorta close, having left Long Beach State on probation and then leading UNLV to endless NCAA clashes. But Tark never made a Final Four at Long Beach and several of his Final Fours at UNLV remain in the NCAA record books.

Second comment-- with Memphis vacating all 38 of those wins, it restores an important record to Duke. The record for most wins in a season was 37 before Memphis won those 38 games. The teams that won 37 games are -- Duke, 1986 (37-3), UNLV, 1987 (37-2), Duke, 1999 (37-2), and Illinois, 2005 (37-2).

--Jason "interesting side note-- all of those teams lost the championship game and their chance at win #38" Evans

Kansas was 37-3 in 2008.

[Quo Vadis]

Yes, it is hard to pin point Cal as being involved in any wrong doing. But it is really easy to not get your hands dirty. Today, it would take severe mental deficencies for a HC to be dumb enough to actually get caught. As long as you don't write anything down, or leave a email, text message, or voice mail detailing the wrong doing, it is hard to be caught.

So, circumstantial evidence is all that can ever exist. The NCAA cannot find bank records, phone records, or anything. They do not exist. No one has them.

Any phone conversations would have taken place over anonymous, pre-paid cell phones purchased at some out of the way truck stop, by a third party "associate" and paid for in cash. Those things don't have records. Offshore banking makes it easy enough to funnel and hide cash payments.

You see how easy it is. Since the NCAA has no subpoena power, they would be hard pressed to find records, even if they existed. Which they don't. In recent years, the only evidence the NCAA can produce comes via disgruntled former advisors/street agents who have been cut out of the loop and then come forward. And even then the evidence is spotty and unreliable, because it is usually only of the he said she said variety. Courts don't like that type of evidence, especially comming from the types of people who become street agents.

But there is enough circumstantial evidence to hang Cal here. How could he not have known about these transgressions. It is willful ignorance of wrong doing. It is the equivalent of buying a vacant lot, intalling poor lighting, hanging up a sign that says "feel free to conduct drug transactions on this lot" and then closing your eyes, covering your ears, and telling the authorities you had no SPECIFIC knowledge of any drug transactions. It is true, but you see the willful ignorance.

I have a feeling the NCAA is playing a deep game here. When they catch Cal at KY, and they will within the next decade, I think they will strip KY of a FF or NC, and issue a show cause for Cal. Prior to Mem, Cal had only had one run in. One point does not a line make. Now he has two points. A line has been established. But, any two points make a line, so it is still a little iffy. But KY knows about the points. When he breaks the rules at KY, and he will if he hasn't already, the NCAA can come down on everybody hard.

Make KY vacate a good season, and show cause Cal, and you will send a message. Restricting his active recruiting? WWW will simply take up the slack and Cal can side step the restrictions in other ways, with ease. Twitter, Myspace, etc make contact easy, and all but untraceable. But a serious penalty levied against a titan would send a message. Here's hoping that happens.

[hurleyfor3]

Hmmm... methinks having to coach Kentucky will serve as plenty of punishment for Coach Cal. Just wait a few years.

[JasonEvans]

Kansas was 37-3 in 2008.

Yikes-- you are right. So sorry!!

--Jason "and the Jayhawks are the lone 37-win team with a national title" Evans

[Memphis Devil]

Memphis certainly is not without blame here. For a program that had long lost its luster, the risk-reward in the Cal hiring was worth it for them. The biggest mistake the University made was essentially turning the entire sports department over to Cal. He even had a say when it came to scheduling football games. Not only is this Cal's second vacated Final Four, but it is the second for Memphis as well (Dana Kirk? in the mid-80's). And for what it is worth, I believe that banner still hangs as well as the one at UMass. Anyone that doesn't expect the same result at UK is fooling themselves as were Memphis fans up until Cal left. Eventually someone in the NCAA will grow a pair and truly investigate WWW, his relationship with Cal, his relationship with top recruits, and his relationship with many agents.

[hurleyfor3]

The biggest mistake the University made was essentially turning the entire sports department over to Cal. He even had a say when it came to scheduling football games.

Didn't Jimmy V have pretty much the same level of control at NC State as this? Hmmm.

[Memphis Devil]

Didn't Jimmy V have pretty much the same level of control at NC State as this? Hmmm.

That is a question I cannot answer (it kind of pre-dates me). But, I am sure that there are many coaches both in bball and fball that have/have had this same level of control. The mistake is giving it the ones with checkered pasts and questionable ethics. While Cal had only one blemish (that I am aware of) on his resume when he came to Memphis, you must admit it was a pretty big blemish. His reputation speaks for itself and where there is smoke there is usually fire. Even Kentucky wouldn't touch Cal two years ago when they hired Billy Clyde even though he did everything but call a press conference and ask them to hire him.

[JasonEvans]

In the category of stuff that will never happen but would be really cool if it did...

Memphis should sue Rose for the harm to its reputation and record book.

Derrick Rose lied to Memphis and defrauded the University in order to be eligible.

--Jason "Cal would have to be a witness... but would it be for the plaintiff or the defendant?" Evans

[JasonEvans]

Interesting-- Doug Gottleib on ESPN just said that he feels this is a major stain on Calipari and it will prevent him from ever reaching the basketball Hall of Fame. He said, "just like Jerry Tarkanian and Eddie Sutton, the Hall does not take guys who cheated to get to the top. Coach Calipari will never make the Hall of Fame."

--Jason "I can now count on one finger the number of times I have applauded the comments of Doug Gottleib" Evans

[thewiseben]

Interesting-- Doug Gottleib on ESPN just said that he feels this is a major stain on Calipari and it will prevent him from ever reaching the basketball Hall of Fame. He said, "just like Jerry Tarkanian and Eddie Sutton, the Hall does not take guys who cheated to get to the top. Coach Calipari will never make the Hall of Fame."

--Jason "I can now count on one finger the number of times I have applauded the comments of Doug Gottleib" Evans

I'm with you that for all intents and purposes, the non-UK public will believe he's been 'up to no-good', but until there is something more substantive, it seems like it will be hard to deny his hall of fame status (should he actually win anything that isn't later stripped away).

The NCAA has done everything it can to avoid any hint of accusing Calipari of doing anything improper, and I think they'll continue to do so unless they have something to back it up while keeping an eye on him (and hopefully World Wide Wes).

I'm glad they're taking an 'innocent until proven guilty' approach on this but I wish someone would hurry up and prove it.

Pitino on the other hand...

[SlimSlowSlider]

Doyel is outraged that Memphis is penalized but Duke never was for utilizing a tainted Corey Maggette.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/5881996/16724605

Doyel is obsessed.

[Vincetaylor]

The NCAA has got to start hitting these cheats where it hurts most...the wallet. Memphis should have to repay any proceeds it received from reaching the Final Four and Calipari should be hit with fines that would be severe enough to make him think twice about cheating.

[thewiseben]

More experienced posters, while I know its probably bad form to bring up trolls like Doyel <shudder>, he (and the people who agree with him) brought up some questionable Duke recruits from years past. I was wondering what others know about the situations.

Doyel's latest rant:
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/5881996/16724605/1

What is the consensus on whatever went down with Maggette?

How about the supposed jobs for Jason Williams/Boozer's parents?

[texas]

as a fan of a team (texas) that lost to this memphis team in the great 8, this is just great news :mad: . . . so frustrating. yes, i'd love to see the NCAA step up and do something with regards to WWW and calipari.

[airowe]

More experienced posters, while I know its probably bad form to bring up trolls like Doyel <shudder>, he (and the people who agree with him) brought up some questionable Duke recruits from years past. I was wondering what others know about the situations.

Doyel's latest rant:
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/5881996/16724605/1

What is the consensus on whatever went down with Maggette?

How about the supposed jobs for Jason Williams/Boozer's parents?

Doyel has a vendetta, not the NCAA. Maggette was never given improper benefits by Duke, like Memphis did with (allegedly) Rose's brother.


Apples and oranges.

[NSDukeFan]

Doyel has a vendetta, not the NCAA. Maggette was never given improper benefits by Duke, like Memphis did with (allegedly) Rose's brother.


Apples and oranges.

What a bizarre article and a completely ridiculous comparison. Doyel says that the NCAA found out after Maggette had left Duke that an AAU coach paid Maggette. He actually never mentioned anything that Duke did wrong, yet feels that the school should be punished because of an AAU coach? What a dumb article.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Aww, I thought Doyel promised to put aside his childish vendetta if K brought home the gold (http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/10912776/1). I'm shocked, shocked, that a high-character guy like Gregg would renege on that. :rolleyes:

[Azdukefan]

Vacate a season? What a thought! I am going to have to go back and unremember that I watched Memphis crumble at the free throw line and that clutch three by Chalmers was ever hit. How about vacate a coach? Coach Cal is exactly why Duke gets accused for "getting all the calls." He rigs things in his favor with little recourse so the same must be going on in Durham. And Doyell can take his thoughts and shove them in a dark hole. Coach Cal needs to be removed from NCAA coaching......period.

[monkey]

Hmmm... just to play Devil's Advocate ... not sure Doyel is completely wrong here. Look Duke had virtually no way of knowing that Maggette took money and was therefore ineligible, so I think stripping us of our 1998-99 wins because he was an ineligible player would have been unfair, especially considering he wasn't even a starter (though a super 6th man). I wonder if they would have had more issues if we won it all that year:(

However, it seems to me that the major reason for stripping Memphis of their wins is the ineligible player issue ... Now Derrick Rose was the reason they won that many games (unlike in Duke's case, where they had McD AAs riding the pine), still, this seems like an extremely harsh punishment if the player and not the University is to blame for the fake SATs. How can they stop or police this behavior? And the NCAA Clearinghouse cleared him to play. Now, if the punishment is really because they believe that Calipari and the University were in cahoots with Rose in making him eligible/punishing them for things they can't prove, this may explain the discrepancy, but this is also fairly unfair to Memphis if not part of the official final conclusions.

[mgtr]

How did the NCAA clearinghouse get the info to clear Rose? Unless Memphis or Calipari somehow participated in getting them fake info, I don't see how anyone but the clearinghouse and Rose are guilty of anything. Maybe the university has to certify the data as correct, I just don't know.
In terms of punishing the University but not the coach, I think the NCAA expects that the university runs the athletic department, not the other way round. Now, where I taught at a then Division II school, that was reasonable. But in a top Division I program, with all the money flowing in various directions, that is probably unrealistic.
If I were Cal, I would have everybody frisked for wires before I talked to anyone anywhere anytime. The NCAA is watching you!

[Greg_Newton]

How did the NCAA clearinghouse get the info to clear Rose? Unless Memphis or Calipari somehow participated in getting them fake info, I don't see how anyone but the clearinghouse and Rose are guilty of anything...

Good point, can anyone decipher what exactly this means?


Paul Dee, the chairman for the COI, said in a teleconference that even though Memphis was not aware of Rose's questionable test score until midway through his freshman year, once the score was invalidated by Educational Testing Service, Rose no longer met the initial eligibility standards.

"This is a situation of strict liability," Dee said. "If he is ineligible and does not meet initial requirements, the penalties are related back to that time and a determination is then made: Did he play in any contests after the fact? In this case, he did."

Calipari was not penalized because he was never included in the original notice of allegations, Dee said. He did, however, stress that vacating the record books carries with it an implied punishment.

I'm not sure what "that time" refers to - is Memphis being punished for the time they unknowingly had an unqualified player on their roster, or just for continuing to play him after they received notice he was ineligible mid-year? Does the "implied punishment" quote imply they think Cal is a little guilty after all? Does the "strict liability" quote imply that Duke maybe should have been liable in '99, or was that a different situation because it was not cut-and-dry that Maggette was ineligible? (i.e. is it the case that receiving money from an AAU coach does not automatically make you ineligible, but faking your SAT does?)

Confusing stuff all around.

[crimsonandblue]

Good point, can anyone decipher what exactly this means?



I'm not sure what "that time" refers to - is Memphis being punished for the time they unknowingly had an unqualified player on their roster, or just for continuing to play him after they received notice he was ineligible mid-year? Does the "implied punishment" quote imply they think Cal is a little guilty after all? Does the "strict liability" quote imply that Duke maybe should have been liable in '99, or was that a different situation because it was not cut-and-dry that Maggette was ineligible? (i.e. is it the case that receiving money from an AAU coach does not automatically make you ineligible, but faking your SAT does?)

Confusing stuff all around.

Well, here's the summary from the NCAA. (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?key=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2009/division+i/memphis+penalties+include+vacation+of+wins+in+2007-08_08_20_09_ncaa_news)

I think the issue for Memphis was that they were made aware in October of a potential issue with Rose's test score. They did a hasty "investigation" of the circumstances surrounding his test score and weren't able to find any grounds to dispute the score. That seems to have consisted of asking Rose whether he really took the test. Knowing that a pall hung over the veracity of the test score, Memphis played Rose the entire season and then learned that the score was invalidated.

I think in most cases, when a school learns there's an issue or possible issue, they hold the kid out for fear of playing an ineligible kid (I recall that happened with Kareem Rush when he was found to have accepted improper benefits from Piggie - Mizzou held the kid out and waited for the NCAA punishment, which was a suspension). Memphis did a cursory investigation and trotted the kid on court.

Now, I think expunging a season from the record books hurts mostly the school's fans. I'd rather see limits on recruiting or something tangible but that doesn't make a mockery of reality.

And the moral of the story is, if someone calls you with questions over a kid during the season, pull the kid until you get the issue resolved or you've got some risk.

[Greg_Newton]

Well, here's the summary from the NCAA. (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?key=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2009/division+i/memphis+penalties+include+vacation+of+wins+in+2007-08_08_20_09_ncaa_news)

I think the issue for Memphis was that they were made aware in October of a potential issue with Rose's test score. They did a hasty "investigation" of the circumstances surrounding his test score and weren't able to find any grounds to dispute the score. That seems to have consisted of asking Rose whether he really took the test. Knowing that a pall hung over the veracity of the test score, Memphis played Rose the entire season and then learned that the score was invalidated.

I think in most cases, when a school learns there's an issue or possible issue, they hold the kid out for fear of playing an ineligible kid (I recall that happened with Kareem Rush when he was found to have accepted improper benefits from Piggie - Mizzou held the kid out and waited for the NCAA punishment, which was a suspension). Memphis did a cursory investigation and trotted the kid on court.

Now, I think expunging a season from the record books hurts mostly the school's fans. I'd rather see limits on recruiting or something tangible but that doesn't make a mockery of reality.

And the moral of the story is, if someone calls you with questions over a kid during the season, pull the kid until you get the issue resolved or you've got some risk.

Thanks... so technically, the difference between this situation and Duke's '99 situation was that Memphis was made aware that something may have been fishy and continued to play him, while Duke was unaware the whole time? Still, this quote (cited in my previous post) seems to imply that awareness isn't even relevant:

"This is a situation of strict liability," Dee said. "If he is ineligible and does not meet initial requirements, the penalties are related back to that time and a determination is then made: Did he play in any contests after the fact? In this case, he did."

I'm just trying to figure out if we have a legitimate reason to dismiss Doyel's article as ridiculous... still hoping we do, but I'm not sure if I'm sold yet...

[longtimefan]

All i can think of is john chaney was correct after all.

[BlueintheFace]

All i can think of is john chaney was correct after all.

I loved... LOVED John Chaney. Still Do.

[theAlaskanBear]

All i can think of is john chaney was correct after all.


Do explain? I would love to hear some wisdom from the man.

[Kdogg]

The NCAA has got to start hitting these cheats where it hurts most...the wallet. Memphis should have to repay any proceeds it received from reaching the Final Four and Calipari should be hit with fines that would be severe enough to make him think twice about cheating.

Isn't this standard procedure? I'm sure the NCAA will take back all the money Memphis was given plus any shares the school has accumulated.

In the past, I've heard of players reimburse their school for such losses. Michigan even sued Chris Webber to recover some of the money they lost.

[mph]

Dana O'Neil of ESPN unloads (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=oneil_dana&id=4411875) on Memphis, the NCAA, and Kentucky. But mostly she unloads on Calipari.

Also, it says a lot about the state of mind of the average UK fan that the governor feels compelled to defend Cal.

[jesus_hurley]

Thanks... so technically, the difference between this situation and Duke's '99 situation was that Memphis was made aware that something may have been fishy and continued to play him, while Duke was unaware the whole time? Still, this quote (cited in my previous post) seems to imply that awareness isn't even relevant:


I'm just trying to figure out if we have a legitimate reason to dismiss Doyel's article as ridiculous... still hoping we do, but I'm not sure if I'm sold yet...

One thing to consider with this is that there's a different president of the NCAA now - and he's taken a number of hits over eligibility (see USC) over the last few years. A lot of this has the feel of trying to set an example without really penalizing Memphis going forward since whatever they do to Memphis can't hurt Cal at UK.


I did a quick search and found this:
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/Story?id=100919&page=1


Precedent for situations in which an ineligible athlete played in a postseason game and the university was unaware of the violations calls for the school to return 45 percent of its game revenue and give up any title it won, spokeswoman Jane Jankowski said.

...

The next step for the NCAA is to see if rules were violated, not if Duke tried to cover up the payments, he said.

“Clearly, we weren’t aware of it,” Rossiter said. “The issue is, was this in fact a violation of NCAA rules, and what do they do about it.”

Now I know we did not give up any titles (ACC), but what I'm reading is when Maggette took money he did it without Duke or Coach K knowing anything about it until after he had left school. And the punishment stated for that is giving up money gained and titles won not vacating wins. In Memphis' (or Cal's to be specific...) case, they were told in October that there were questions around Rose. Instead of holding him out to be 100% certain Cal not only let him play but allowed his brother to fly - for free - on some team charters.

[dukemsu]

Derrick Rose is a multimillionaire.

No player or coach currently at Memphis is being punished.

John Calipari is now the highest paid coach in Division I at maybe the highest-profile program.

Something is very, very wrong here. And I'm not just talking about Memphis or Kentucky.

A truly depressing day all around.

dukemsu

[dukemsu]

What a bizarre article and a completely ridiculous comparison. Doyel says that the NCAA found out after Maggette had left Duke that an AAU coach paid Maggette. He actually never mentioned anything that Duke did wrong, yet feels that the school should be punished because of an AAU coach? What a dumb article.

Doyel is completely in the wrong. He's trying to equate something an AAU coach did with academic fraud. And the stuff about Boozer/Duhon has been covered ad naseum on both these boards and everywhere else.

Doyel is simply paid to be a bomb-throwing hack. He's also on the record as being a big Cal fan just due to Cal's charm.

The guy has zero credibility.

dukemsu

[JasonEvans]

Derrick Rose is a multimillionaire.

No player or coach currently at Memphis is being punished.

John Calipari is now the highest paid coach in Division I at maybe the highest-profile program.

Something is very, very wrong here. And I'm not just talking about Memphis or Kentucky.

A truly depressing day all around.

dukemsu

Wonderful post. Perfectly sums up the ridiculous nature of what happened today. Your comments go hand-in-hand with the column linked above by Dana O'Neil of ESPN.

--Jason "it is sad and pathetic that the NCAA is so impotent or unwilling to actually do something about cheaters like Cal and Rose" Evans

[moonpie23]

HEY....!!!! Wait a minute.......Cheatin' DOES pay.....

[airowe]

The missing piece:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/aug/20/geoff-calkins-course-calipari-knew-now-its-all-aca/

[wilko]

The real victims here are the Memphis Fans.
They have every right to be happy with and excited about their team for the right reasons. They didnt ask for this.

As for Cal...
I cant say 1st hand..... but the evidence at, now, 2 schools is certainly damning evidence about his policys and practices to running a program to me.

I hope he gets what he deserves sooner rather than later, and I hope he gets it good and hard.

[Greg_Newton]

The missing piece:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/aug/20/geoff-calkins-course-calipari-knew-now-its-all-aca/

That's a great article. To ignore Cal and discuss the NCAA for a second... the whole "strict liability" basis for the punishment is seeming stranger and stranger to me. The NCAA's official explanation is that A) Memphis had an ineligible player on their roster during their 38 wins, therefore B) They must forfeit all 38 wins, period. However, this "rule" does not seem to have been the precedent... see Duke '99 if you don't believe me.

This strikes me as a bizarre case of the NCAA either not having the proof or not having the cajones to call BS on Calipari and the administration for being aware of or directly involved with the original fraud, so they instead give a misdirected slap on the wrist for something else that doesn't even make sense. Kind of like when a ref doesn't want to call a foul (in this case, a flagrantly obvious foul) and instead just calls it out of bounds off the offending player even though he didn't touch the ball... everyone knows what's really going on, but the official call doesn't really make sense.

[A-Tex Devil]

What is sad is that the SMU death penalty has made the NCAA gunshy about penalizing schools at all, and television contracts have made it worse.

I am not saying anything is going on as blatant as the old pony express back in the '80s, but there are things going on now that would have put teams on no postseason, no TV probation back in the '80s and '90s. The thing is, the NCAA knows where its bread is buttered and won't punish schools like they used to.

As unfair as it is to the players that come in after a school has been punished, that's the ONLY way schools will make sure they police themselves. The self-policing going on now is kinda a joke. These schools know nothing but a few lost scholarships are coming their way.

We need '80s-''90s footbal style probation back for football and basketball.

Now this may have crippled USC, OU, FSU, Alabama in football and USC, Memphis, Indiana, OU basketball in the past 5 years. And a lot may have been do to single actor head coaches/boosters. But so what?

And yes. If Iron Duke X paid some guy $10,000 to play for Duke and it was found out 4 years later, Duke should be put on no postseason, no TV probation. And 3rd strike equals death penalty.

[mgtr]

What is sad is that the SMU death penalty has made the NCAA gunshy about penalizing schools at all, and television contracts have made it worse.

I am not saying anything is going on as blatant as the old pony express back in the '80s, but there are things going on now that would have put teams on no postseason, no TV probation back in the '80s and '90s. The thing is, the NCAA knows where its bread is buttered and won't punish schools like they used to.

As unfair as it is to the players that come in after a school has been punished, that's the ONLY way schools will make sure they police themselves. The self-policing going on now is kinda a joke. These schools know nothing but a few lost scholarships are coming their way.

We need '80s-''90s footbal style probation back for football and basketball.

Now this may have crippled USC, OU, FSU, Alabama in football and USC, Memphis, Indiana, OU basketball in the past 5 years. And a lot may have been do to single actor head coaches/boosters. But so what?

And yes. If Iron Duke X paid some guy $10,000 to play for Duke and it was found out 4 years later, Duke should be put on no postseason, no TV probation. And 3rd strike equals death penalty.

I agree with this view. Big time college sports has become such a goldmine that the punishments have to be costly, indeed. That would change the cost/benefit analysis of hiring someone "questionable." If the person knowinging broke the rules, the school would suffer severely, not only in prestige but in loss of future revenue and forfeiture of past revenue.

As has been discussed many times here before, a lot of this is brought on by forcing "students" who have no interest in college into pretending to go for one year. Changing that rule (in some way) would help a lot.

[MChambers]

It does seem to me that this latest Calipari fiasco puts Kentucky on notice that it needs to have strong supervision of the basketball program. If (or when) Calipari commits ethical transgressions at Kentucky, Kentucky should get hammered.

[JasonEvans]

Yahoo has another pretty good article (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AradL24zbtjRWTGfO_NzPpc5nYcB?slug=jn-memphis082009&prov=yhoo&type=lgns) on how impotent and pathetic the NCAA looks in all this. It asks some interesting questions:


You’d think the NCAA might also be interested in the fact that Rose – after taking the ACT test three times in his hometown of Chicago and failing to meet eligibility requirements – took the SAT exam one month before he was scheduled to enroll at Memphis. Only this time Rose traveled to Detroit to take the test.

No questions as to why Rose would’ve traveled to Detroit for the exam, or about who may have taken it for him? Even if answers were hard to come by, an attempt would’ve been nice. Dee, though, indicated no such effort was made.

“The information was available that the exam was taken outside of Chicago,” Dee said. “However, when we made the determination that the testing service had canceled the test score, it obviated the need to ask the question as to where the test was taken.”

Really? It obviated the need to get the whole story? No probe into who tied to the Memphis program may have known about it or been involved? No questions about how such a sham could have been orchestrated, perhaps in an effort to prevent it from happening again?

Talk about lazy. Talk about ineffective. Talk about inviting another program or another coach to take their chances.

I only hope that the outrage over the NCAA's lack of teeth will bring about some change... but I sure as heck won't be holding my breath.

One more thing, the argument about not punishing present players for the misdeeds of the past is bunk. If you choose to play for Cal (a guy who has left numerous teams on probation) or for a program with a long history of skirting the edges and being on the infractions radar then you assume the risk that program will be barred from TV or postseason or something. That would be the real teeth in all this. If recruits knew that playing for a crook like Cal was a bigger risk than playing for honest coaches then that would really start to make a difference.

--Jason "playing for a bad guy, even if you are honest yourself, should carry a risk" Evans

[JasonEvans]

It does seem to me that this latest Calipari fiasco puts Kentucky on notice that it needs to have strong supervision of the basketball program. If (or when) Calipari commits ethical transgressions at Kentucky, Kentucky should get hammered.

If anyone knows a Kentucky fan, ask them the following--

Would you rather:

A- Win a national title and then have it vacated by the NCAA 3 years later
or B- Have a good, but not great season (Round of 32) with honest student-athletes and an honest coach

If we are really being honest, almost everyone chooses A. The only way folks start to really fear A is if A carries much worse penalties and embarrassment than "vacated."

--Jason "at Duke we get to choose C- national title contender with honesty" Evans

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

The real victims here are the Memphis Fans.
They have every right to be happy with and excited about their team for the right reasons. They didnt ask for this.

As for Cal...
I cant say 1st hand..... but the evidence at, now, 2 schools is certainly damning evidence about his policys and practices to running a program to me.

I hope he gets what he deserves sooner rather than later, and I hope he gets it good and hard.

I'd say the real victims are the honest players on the team whose wins were vacated.

[Tom B.]

The teams that won 37 games are -- Duke, 1986 (37-3), UNLV, 1987 (37-2), Duke, 1999 (37-2), and Illinois, 2005 (37-2).

--Jason "interesting side note-- all of those teams lost the championship game and their chance at win #38" Evans

Minor correction -- the 1987 UNLV team lost in the semifinals (to eventual champ Indiana), not the finals. Indiana beat Syracuse in the finals.

[wilko]

I'd say the real victims are the honest players on the team whose wins were vacated.

Assuming there are any ... yes. you would be more correct.

[SoCalDukeFan]

1. I now completely understand (probably did before) that Gregg Doyle needs professional help.

2. I think the NCAA would like to see member schools control their athletic programs. The Memphis AD should have been aware that Rose had an unexplainable increase in SAT scores conducted a thorough investigation. They did not do enough. The school gets punished.

3. It would be nice to see NCAA ban coaches from coaching at member schools after a violation such as this. Not sure if it is possible.

4. This reaffirms that the NBA rule of one year past graduation stinks.

5. What really stinks is the Cal and Rose are getting rich.

SoCal

[moonpie23]

It does seem to me that this latest Calipari fiasco puts Kentucky on notice that it needs to have strong supervision of the basketball program. If (or when) Calipari commits ethical transgressions at Kentucky, Kentucky should get hammered.

actually, it doesn't........john is from the bill belechick school....just go ahead and cheat...even if you get caught....NOTHING's going to happen..

the school wants it so bad, they don't care what they do to get it....even if it goes away later..

those bon fires will be just as remembered...

[crimsonandblue]

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/5189/leadecopy.jpg

[airowe]

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/5189/leadecopy.jpg

Haha nice.

I just looked at the brackets from '08. Not sure which #2 seed we were, but if we were the #1 #2 seed, we would have been the #4 #1 seed without Memphis. Things may have changed a lot.

:eek::rolleyes:

[hurleyfor3]

I can't imagine we were the strongest #2 in 2008. We really nosedived at the end of that year. Anyway, if we needed a last-second shot to get by the #15 seed it's hard to imagine doing any better with a different draw. (I was actually in London during the first weekend of that tournament, which turned out to be a good call.)

Fun picture, but you can pretty easily see where the Clone tool was used.