Williams vs. Coach K

[dukeblue225]

How is it possible that Williams beat K in the ACC Coaches Tournament Finals?
Maybe Williams was statistically better over the past few years. But does history just not matter. Longevity is a vital component to a coach's success. To think that Williams is better because he has a better winning percentage (as of now in his short career) is to be ignorant to history. The only way to judge is after each coach's career is over.

Personally K... and Smith, are on a whole other spectrum because they are more than great coaches, they are great leaders that built their players into men. This is something that Williams (or Calipari or Donovan etc.) will never be able to do. They may be great recruiters and good coaches. But they are not great leaders and they have not built a culture similar to those of K...and Smith.

[jipops]

Yeah the fact that Williams beat Smith in this fantasy world made the whole thing a bit of a joke anyways. Williams is reaping recruiting benefits off of what Dean put together. And let's face it, from a coaching and strategy standpoint Dean was far superior than what Roy is now.

So this makes putting Roy ahead of K just as ridiculous.

[OldSchool]

Personally K... and Smith, are on a whole other spectrum because they are more than great coaches, they are great leaders that built their players into men. This is something that Williams (or Calipari or Donovan etc.) will never be able to do. They may be great recruiters and good coaches. But they are not great leaders and they have not built a culture similar to those of K...and Smith.

I wouldn't put Roy down at the same level of Calipari. He may not be K or Smith, but neither is he as low as Calipari.

[RelativeWays]

Huckleberry Hound also had a good tenure at KU and several good players came out of that program during his time there and pretty much has kept his nose clean (I know KU had a minor violation around the time he left). Ol Roy doesn't have to create a new culture at UNC, he just has to sustain the one Smith created, one he's been a part of for years anyway.

[JasonEvans]

You can hate me for saying it, but I think Dean Smith's innovations make him the ACC's top all-time coach. It is a very close race with K, IMO, and K could pass him in the next few years, but for now I think Dean is #1.

Roy Williams is not even in the conversation-- at least not yet. In a few years, perhaps (if Roy wins another national title and makes a couple more Final Fours... shudder), but to say he is ahead of Dean and K right now is just absurd. I am sure most sane UNC fans would agree.

--Jason "now, someone find me a sane UNC fan to talk to about this ;) " Evans

[Reddevil]

Roy has always had the benefit of coaching at well established flagship programs. He never needed to create one. One could argue that he did pull them back out of the dumpster, but that was for a very short period of time and recruiting was not the problem. Deano and K came into places that had some great history, but they really both created unique cultures that were not part of the past. Putting K and Smith on another level is no insult to anyone, and maybe this one and done fantasy format is not what this was about. Roy is one of the best, and on top of the world, but winning and program building are two different things.

[Quo Vadis]

Roy has always had the benefit of coaching at well established flagship programs. He never needed to create one. One could argue that he did pull them back out of the dumpster, but that was for a very short period of time and recruiting was not the problem. Deano and K came into places that had some great history, but they really both created unique cultures that were not part of the past. Putting K and Smith on another level is no insult to anyone, and maybe this one and done fantasy format is not what this was about. Roy is one of the best, and on top of the world, but winning and program building are two different things.

Sustaining success may be much more difficult than creating success. Look at UCLA, Kentucky, and the post Dean years prior to Roy. Look at 1995. Following a legend is not easy. For a year or two, a new coach can do OK with the legend's recruits, but that is hard to sustain.

Roy has won as many titles as Deano, is recruiting at least as well as Dean did (towards the end), and is only 1 title behind K. Plus over the next two years he has the nucleus and incoming recruits to make another NC run. In six years he has two titles, three FFs, and one near FF that required a late collapse and overtime to squander. It was only slightly worse than Duke's 98 fade against KY.

I am not saying Roy is the best ever, but he is in the discussion. In 5 years, it may not be a discussion if he keeps it up at this level.

[roywhite]

Sustaining success may be much more difficult than creating success. Look at UCLA, Kentucky, and the post Dean years prior to Roy. Look at 1995. Following a legend is not easy. For a year or two, a new coach can do OK with the legend's recruits, but that is hard to sustain.

Roy has won as many titles as Deano, is recruiting at least as well as Dean did (towards the end), and is only 1 title behind K. Plus over the next two years he has the nucleus and incoming recruits to make another NC run. In six years he has two titles, three FFs, and one near FF that required a late collapse and overtime to squander. It was only slightly worse than Duke's 98 fade against KY.

I am not saying Roy is the best ever, but he is in the discussion. In 5 years, it may not be a discussion if he keeps it up at this level.



Hmmm... You're so gracious to our Tarheel neighbors. National championship nucleus in place again? -- that's a stretch IMO; don't really have the guard play. Best ever within 5 years? ---perhaps, but I doubt that K and Dean would be eclipsed so soon.

Vaguely reminiscent of a recent poster we had (since departed) who also had a "classical" handle. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

[superdave]

Matt Doherty recruited the 2005 National Championship team. He has famously pointed that out a few times.

[shoutingncu]

Roy Williams is not even in the conversation-- at least not yet...

--Jason "now, someone find me a sane UNC fan to talk to about this ;) " Evans

Roy has said that he doesn't belong in the conversation with Dean. In fact, I believe his quote was "Roy Williams does not belong in the same sentence as Dean Smith."

And since Coach K certainly is in that sentence, or ahead of it, I'd have to agree that anyone else is fighting for third.

Of course, I'm not sure that I, or Ol' Roy, qualify as a sane UNC fan.

[DDB4208]

I think it's hard to compare coaches at all but it is easier at the end of their careers. I think this is what you will see at the end of their careers if they keep roughly the same pace and both coach until they are 72 (Coach K is 62; Roy is 59).

Coach K (now) - 34 seasons, 833 wins, 3 National Titles, 11 ACC Tourn. Championships, 10 ACC Reg. Season Championships, 10 Final Fours, 25 NCAA Appearances, 1 Olympic Gold Medal

Coach K (retired, 10 years later) - 44 seasons, 1000-1,150 wins, 4-5 National Titles, 14-16 ACC Tournament Championships, 13-15 ACC Reg. Season Championships, 12-13 Final Fours, 35 NCAA Appearances, 2 Olympic Gold Medals

Coach Williams (now) - 22 seasons, 594 wins, 2 National Titles, 6 Conf. Tourn. Championships (2-ACC, 3-Big12, 1-Big8), 12 Conf. Reg Season Championships (3-ACC, 4-Big12, 5-Big8), 7 Final Fours, 20 NCAA Appearances

Coach Williams (retired, 13 years later) - 32 seasons, 900-1000 wins, 3-4 National Titles, 8-10 Conf. Tourn. Championships, 15-19 Conf. Reg. Season Championships, 10-11 Final Fours, 33 NCAA Appearances


Both Coaches have a chance to win over 1,000 games which has never been done before, and when you look at what they are paced to achieve, it is nearly identical. Coach K has coached more seasons already that Roy will likely ever coach. This makes Coach William's achievements more impressive. But when you know that Coach K started at Army and made Duke into one of the greatest basketball schools and that Roy Williams started at two great basketball schools, you know that Coach K had it tougher. But even so both coaches are very similar. Both are in the HOF, both were disciples of legendary coaches and both will (IMO) end with roughly the same amount of: NC's, Wins and Final Fours.

I don't think that of the current elite coaches (Calipari, T. Smith, Wright, Pitino, Self, etc.) only Pitino and Self will come close to what Coach K and Coach Williams will do and even Self and Pitino won't be all that close.

And btw please don't try criticize me for predicting. I know it's not set in stone, but it's what I believe will happen.

[hurleyfor3]

Here's an impending dilemma for unc fans. If Roy wins another title, do you put Roy ahead of Dean because 3>2? And if you do that, you'd have to put K ahead of Dean too because 3>2, right?

[RelativeWays]

Matt Doherty recruited the 2005 National Championship team. He has famously pointed that out a few times.
And he couldn't coach them out of a wet paper bag, who recruits who doesn't mean a hill of beans if the players don't buy in to the coach. I know Huckleberry Hound critics try to downplay the 05 championship because he didn't recruit those. So what? Its obvious D'oh wasn't going to have those guys cut down the nets, and you can't really say any competent coach could have done it either, nothing is a given. Heck, Roy couldn't win it with them in 04, so yeah he did have to do a bit of coaching there. Its the same BS logic sheep fans love to employ about the 08' olympic team. "Oh my grandma could have coached that team to victory" yeah, if your grandma isn't Larry Brown or George Karl, maybe she could have. They couldn't.

[A-Tex Devil]

I don't care what the article/poll says. I know who the best coach is. Period.

[Matches]

Here's an impending dilemma for unc fans. If Roy wins another title, do you put Roy ahead of Dean because 3>2? And if you do that, you'd have to put K ahead of Dean too because 3>2, right?

Let's hope that dilemma isn't impending at all. :D

[dukeblue225]

I don't care what the article/poll says. I know who the best coach is. Period.

I couldn't agree with you more. Coach K in my opinion is the best. I just am upset that in the public opinion Coach Williams is better...which,personally, is just flat out untrue.

[sandinmyshoes]

Let us remember that this sort of "tournament" is ridiculous from the outset. I'm not saying that because Coach K did not "win" the silly thing. I reluctantly agree with Jason Evans in feeling that if I had to choose a coach with the most impact from those in this competition, it would have been Dean Smith. His innovations are numerous, and his concept of a program as family can even be found in our own program. From Smith, to Knight, to Coach K.

Of course, it is the summer basketball doldrums, so it gives us something to talk about, I guess. Even if it does have a Superman vs. Batman debate feel about it.