Carlyle Cup

[chrishoke]

Going into this weekend, Duke and UNC were tied with 5 points in 5 sports up for grabs. Last night the Duke women's lacrosse team beat the holes 11-10 and this morning the Duke women's rowing team finished ahead of the holes giving Duke 2 out of the five points. The holes lead in both men's and women's track and field which finishes today. That leaves men's golf as the likely deciding competition. Round 2 of 3 in the ACC championship is currently being played and Duke currenly holds a 5 stroke lead over an evenly matched hole team. I know I may be the only one who cares, but this is pretty exciting. GO DUKE!!!

[SmartDevil]

Thank you for the update. I'm sure many of us care about the result !

[OZZIE4DUKE]

the Duke women's rowing team finished ahead of the holes giving Duke 2 out of the five points.

As an Iron Duke, I received a "thank you for your support" call from a Duke varsity athlete this past week, as have all (or most of) the other Iron Dukes. Mine happenned to be from a member of the women's crew team, so their beating the holes feels even better than normal, since I now have that connection with the team!

Congrats to all the teams for another great season of Duke athletics, especially the men's golf team during their time of mourning the recent loss of their coach, Rod Myers. Beat carolina!

[chrishoke]

Thanks for the reminder Ozzie, I got a letter from a member of the Men's Golf team, appropriately enough.

9F 9F 9F

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

I surely do!!!! Bringing home the Carlyle would finish this traumatic year in style. These are great kids and I think they all know what's at stake.
Go, go, go Devils!

Love, Ima

[wilson]

The ACC men's golf title now looks out of reach, as Georgia Tech has opened a three-shot lead. The Devils currently lead kuralonna by one stroke. The holes are in the clubhouse, while Duke has three players (the weekend's three best performers) remaining on the course with a collective four holes to play. Down to the wire...

[wilson]

The scores I posted were correct, but the final round is not until tomorrow. Regardless, our Devils are in good shape, still within striking distance of the Jackets and a couple of strokes ahead of kuralonna. Clemson has leapfrogged the holes into 3rd place. So, to repeat my earlier closing...

Down to the wire...

[chrishoke]

1 Georgia Tech -6
2 Duke University -4
3 Clemson -3
4 North Carolina -1

Round 2 is now final

[throatybeard]

There used to be a lot more points in the Carlyle cup. What happened?

[wilson]

Including unc's two track points and Duke's women's lax and rowing points, the current score is 12.5-12.5. Men's golf represents the 26th and final point, the same total as in years past.

[CameronBlue]

That if Duke holds its lead in Men's Golf, the cup still won't be decided until the ACC tournaments for M/W Lax and baseball are held. Carolina has a chance to win back .5 point in both the M/W Lax tournament and Duke, although unlikely, could meet the Holes in the ACC tournament, providing an opportunity to split the baseball point.

[wilson]

Also, if the overall score were to end up at 13-13, unc would retain the Cup, having won it last year. Ties go to the previous winner (like the Ryder Cup, etc.).

[hughgs]

There used to be a lot more points in the Carlyle cup. What happened?

They redid the points a couple of years ago. I think it was to weight the revenue sports a little more.

[wilson]

They redid the points a couple of years ago. I think it was to weight the revenue sports a little more.

According to the official Carlyle Cup website, the point total has remained unchanged throughout the competition's existence:

http://www.carlylecup.com/index2.html

[chrishoke]

Actually, not true.

DUKE CAPTURES CARLYLE CUP
May 20, 2001
After a strong showing in its winter and spring sports, Duke clinched the inaugural Carlyle Cup, the all-sports rivalry with Carolina sponsored by the Greensboro-based jewelry company Carlyle & Co.
The Blue Devils earned the initial trophy by a 27-21 margin over the Tar Heels. The second year of the competition begins next fall.

"We are thrilled to win the inaugural Carlyle Cup," said Duke Director of Athletics Joe Alleva. "It was a spirited competition between two great athletic programs.

"All of the athletes and coaches from each institution should be congratulated for an outstanding year. I would also like to thank Carlyle & Co. for sponsoring this prestigious competition."

UNC dominated the fall season as it claimed victories in men's and women's soccer, field hockey, volleyball and football to take an early 15-1 lead in the competition. Duke's lone fall point was in cross-country.

The Blue Devils had key victories in men's and women's basketball in the winter season, winning all six points, as they cut the lead to 17-8. Carolina's two winter points came in swimming and wrestling. Duke added a point in fencing.

The spring was all Duke. The Blue Devils captured the winner-take-all points in six of seven major sports (men's and women's lacrosse, men's and women's tennis, women's golf and baseball) as they outscored the Tar Heels 19-4 in the spring season to clinch the trophy. Duke also scored a point in rowing, while Carolina got three in men's golf and one in track.

The Carlyle Cup formula was devised by both schools. For sports that did not compete head to head, ACC and/or NCAA competition was used to determine the season series winner. For multiple sports like men's and women's track and cross-country, the ACC Championship finishes of the teams was used to award the point in each to the winner.

Fourteen sports were worth three points each for a total of 42, while six sports that are not equally funded with scholarships by both schools were worth one point each. The grand point total was 48 points.

Duke will be presented the Carlyle Cup, a unique sterling silver and enamel trophy designed exclusively for the competition between the two schools, and will retain it through next year's all-sports competition.

[wilson]

The Carlyle Cup formula was devised by both schools. For sports that did not compete head to head, ACC and/or NCAA competition was used to determine the season series winner. For multiple sports like men's and women's track and cross-country, the ACC Championship finishes of the teams was used to award the point in each to the winner.

Fourteen sports were worth three points each for a total of 42, while six sports that are not equally funded with scholarships by both schools were worth one point each. The grand point total was 48 points.

That's odd...the Carlyle Cup website clearly displays the 2000-01 final tally as Duke 14.5, unc 11.5:

http://www.carlylecup.com/index2.html

Also, as stated in my previous post, all of the previous years' scores listed there reflect a 26-point total. Clearly there has been some tweaking of the formula (it now appears to be one sport, one point). But I wonder what gives with the revisionist history. Maybe the Herald-Sun is handling things?;)

[duketaylor]

As of 1 PM Duke leads unc by 7 shots and is currently in 4th, four shots back of leader GT. Can still win this thing as four shots can be lost on one hole, gonna be a tight finish. Please at least beat the 'Holes.

duke "I wanna work in Durham" taylor

[Indoor66]

Face it, you want to work near the Washington Duke Hotel!

[duketaylor]

Hokies have taken the lead by one over GT and could be the "feel good" story of the week. Since Duke's a bit too far back to win (but, enough ahead of unc;)) GO HOKIES!!!
Carlyle Cup is closer!!

[chrishoke]

It's 3 pm, Duke still up 7 on the bad guys and 5 strokes out of first.

[Bluedog]

Fairly poor final day (+3) to finish in a tie for fourth with FSU (who was -9 on the day) at -1 for the tourney. UNC finished +5 for the tourney. Va Tech and Ga Tech tie at -10 with Va Tech going -9 on the round. Clemson finished third at -6.

http://www.golfstatresults.com/public/leaderboards/team/static/team927.html

[chrishoke]

Well Duke beat the Heels in men's golf, so the Carlyle Cup is ours as long as we cancel the men's and women's lacrosse tournaments.

[LetItBD08]

So does this logic make sense?

Right now we're up by one. Currently we have the full points for the season series with Carolina in both men's and women's lacrosse. We know that we are going to play the men's team again on Friday. We might still have to play the women's team in the ACC tournament if they beat VT. If either one of those Carolina teams beats us then they gain a half point and we lose a half point making the score tied, which is rather bad for us since last year's winner gets to keep the Cup (I don't know if that's the same thing as "winning" for the year).

[duketaylor]

We did beat unc and get a point, although GT caught VT. We finished T-4th. GT and VT should be in a play-off as i type.

[Bluedog]

We did beat unc and get a point, although GT caught VT. We finished T-4th. GT and VT should be in a play-off as i type.

No playoff apparently, GT and VT are just sharing the crown.
http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-golf/spec-rel/042207aaa.html

[wilson]

No playoff apparently, GT and VT are just sharing the crown.

Blecch. Are they gonna kiss their sisters when they get home?

[chrishoke]

Now tied at 13.5 with today's one goal loss to the holes in the Women's lacrosse tournament. SUCKS.

[devildeac]

If the Blue Devil women Lax'ers 'lose' a point(effectively) for their ACC tourney loss today to the evil blues, why don't the men Lax'ers gain another point today for thrashing the 'holes in their ACC tourney match? My guess is 'them's the rules' for the Carlyle Cup but that just does not seem logical.

[bill brill]

the score is now 13-13 but unc would keep the cup. officially, it would go down as a tie, making the overall titles 3 1/2-3 1/2. duke can still win, or lose 13 1/2-12 1/2. unc is all but certain to get a home bid in men's tennis. if duke is in the same pod, likely since the ncaa factors in geography in the opening rounds, duke either has to beat carolina or don't play them. devils won regular season match, in c-hill, 5-2 at time when heels were 20-0. the safest situation would be to avoid them. as far as winning cup is concerned, in women's lacrosse they would have to meet in final four and duke would have to win, thus taking series 2-1. the possibility of meeting is strong because teams are in top four. however, if duke falls to 4, it would have to beat northwestern in the semis. first time, NW 17, DU 5. overall, to be honest given that duke doesn't give grants in either fencing (neither does unc), men's and women's swimming (unc won 2 points), wrestling (unc won) and men's track and field, where duke gives 3 grants out of possible 12.6 (unc won). heels also won women's track, where it is fully funded and duke is not. duke gives far more grants in rowing and won point. now, if devils had just gone for two in football .....

[CameronBlue]

Is there not a chance the teams could meet in the ACC baseball tourney?

[LetItBD08]

I don't think we'll qualify. I believe only the top 8 play.

[chrishoke]

Correct - only the top 8 qualify - we essentially have no chance.

[chrishoke]

the score is now 13-13 but unc would keep the cup. officially, it would go down as a tie, making the overall titles 3 1/2-3 1/2. duke can still win, or lose 13 1/2-12 1/2. unc is all but certain to get a home bid in men's tennis. if duke is in the same pod, likely since the ncaa factors in geography in the opening rounds, duke either has to beat carolina or don't play them. devils won regular season match, in c-hill, 5-2 at time when heels were 20-0. the safest situation would be to avoid them. as far as winning cup is concerned, in women's lacrosse they would have to meet in final four and duke would have to win, thus taking series 2-1. the possibility of meeting is strong because teams are in top four. however, if duke falls to 4, it would have to beat northwestern in the semis. first time, NW 17, DU 5. overall, to be honest given that duke doesn't give grants in either fencing (neither does unc), men's and women's swimming (unc won 2 points), wrestling (unc won) and men's track and field, where duke gives 3 grants out of possible 12.6 (unc won). heels also won women's track, where it is fully funded and duke is not. duke gives far more grants in rowing and won point. now, if devils had just gone for two in football .....

In the NCAA tennis tourny, the duke men are not in the same pod as the heels, but the women are, so they could win back .5 points by beating the heels in chapel hill in the 2nd round - unlikely but possible.

[godukecom]

i may be wrong but arent we in the same pod for women's golf?
i thought i saw that in the paper this morning, aplolgies if i am wrong

[CameronBlue]

I'm pretty sure that the only opportunity to win points in golf is in the ACC Tournament. Duke's taken both golf points anyway.

[bill brill]

the pairings worked out the best possible for duke -- thus far. I have not seen the 64-team field, but since they are not in the same pod, the earliest that duke and unc men tennis could meet is the third round -- unlikely. we don't want to play them since duke won the regular-season meeting. the women could meet in the second round in c-hill. unc won earlier 4-0, but duke is better than it has played. it's a longshot, but certainly possible. if the teams play and unc wins again, nothing has changed and it is still 13-13. the best hope is women's lacrosse. since unc lost in the acc finals, chances are reasonable the teams will be rated 4-5 when the pairings come out. that could lead to a second-round game with the winner getting the full point. only way it won't end up tied with unc holding on to the cup.

[chrishoke]

The women's ncaa lacrosse pairings are now out - duke is the 2 seed and the heels are a 6 seed - they can only meet in the semis of the final 4, and then only if the heels can beat #2 virginia.

[sagegrouse]

Now get this -- to have a chance of winning the Carlyle Cup, Duke needs to root for UNC (and Duke) to win two women's LAX matches in the NCAA tourney, so the teams can meet for a third time and give Duke a chance for an extra one-half point (and the Cup). Of course, there is the risk in Duke losing -- and giving UNC the lead outright.

OTOH, there is a big risk in losing one-half a point in men's tennis in the NCAAs, where Duke and UNC are in the same bracket at UNC and where Duke upset the higher-ranked Heels during the regular season. If Duke were to lose its first-round match, then there would be no chance of facing the Heels again and the threat of losing ground.

Nonsense! To heck with the Carlyle cup, Duke winning and UNC losing under any conditions are more important.:) :) :)

Sage Grouse

[bill brill]

almost no chance duke will meet texas in men's tennis. both have two home matches this weekend and to meet unc in the quarters, duke would have to beat baylor in the round of 16, which ain't happening. we would like devils to win two for director's cup points. somehow duke did get no. 2 seed in women's lax and heels fell to 6th, so they couldn't play before ncaa semis. unc also would have to beat uva at uva. very possible teams meet in women's tennis this week. duke is in unc pod. duke would have to win after losing 4-0 in regular season. my blue devil weekly column this week is on the cup and what a good overall year duke had despite basketball disappointments. only teams that are funded that missed postseason were football, baseball (improved) and rowing. pull for men's lax and women's golf to win titles. duke currently 13th in director's cup, but has good shot at top ten for third straight year.

[sagegrouse]

almost no chance duke will meet texas in men's tennis. both have two home matches this weekend and to meet unc in the quarters, duke would have to beat baylor in the round of 16, which ain't happening. we would like devils to win two for director's cup points.

You are right, Bill. My dyslexia is worse than I thought. When I viewed the NCAA brackets, I had Duke vs. UNC in round 2 -- but not on a second look.

Sage Grouse

[chrishoke]

Women's tennis had a chance to bring home the cup today but lost to the heels 4-1 in C.H. in the 2nd round of the NCAA tourny. The score remains tied. Last chance is w0omen's lacrosse.

[chrishoke]

Women's tennis had a chance to bring home the cup today but lost to the heels 4-1 in C.H. in the 2nd round of the NCAA tourny. The score remains tied. Last chance is w0omen's lacrosse.

Well, the last chance to break the tie is gone - Duke held up its end of the bargain beating J. Hopkins 12-7 but the heels are getting killed by Virginia.
GTHCGTH

[adam]

Did Duke's thumping of UNC in lax today have any affect on The Cup? Just wondering.

[chrishoke]

Did Duke's thumping of UNC in lax today have any affect on The Cup? Just wondering.

No - we had already beat them twice - can you say hat trick.:D

[duketaylor]

Unfortunately the Holes retain the Cup, tying 13-13. GTHC, GTH!!!

[The Gordog]

Unfortunately the Holes retain the Cup, tying 13-13. GTHC, GTH!!!

What a rediculous system where there is no tie-breaker hierarchy !

GTHC! GTH!!!!

[KBCrazie]

What a rediculous system where there is no tie-breaker hierarchy !

There should be a "total wins" criterion that is used in the event of a tie. Presumably Duke would then get credit for "burying" Carolina :D in LAX and any other competitions where they went beyond simply winning the series by one game. Anyone know if that would have brought us the cup this year?

[ikiru36]

Sorry for bringing this thread back up to the top!

I don't know the whole formula but could each school receive an extra half point (or whatever) for actually winning the NCAA title in a relevant sport? That seems like a valid sign of additional dominance and it might help each side avoid having to root for the other to survive long enough to meet so as to get a point back (as happened this year with women's lax, I think). It seems silly (and somewhat revolting) to have to root for UNC in something, to win the Carlyle Cup. Also, it means that for every team, they still have a chance to impact the Cup race up until when their season is completely over.

I don't even know if it would make a difference this year (as I have no idea how many N.C.s UNC may have won). Separately, the fact that there can be a tie seems stupid so they've at least got to fix that somehow.

Go Duke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[hughgs]

Sorry for bringing this thread back up to the top!

I don't know the whole formula but could each school receive an extra half point (or whatever) for actually winning the NCAA title in a relevant sport? That seems like a valid sign of additional dominance and it might help each side avoid having to root for the other to survive long enough to meet so as to get a point back (as happened this year with women's lax, I think). It seems silly (and somewhat revolting) to have to root for UNC in something, to win the Carlyle Cup. Also, it means that for every team, they still have a chance to impact the Cup race up until when their season is completely over.

I don't even know if it would make a difference this year (as I have no idea how many N.C.s UNC may have won). Separately, the fact that there can be a tie seems stupid so they've at least got to fix that somehow.

Go Duke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This would make sense if the idea of the Carlyle Cup was to award the best athletic department. However, it's about the head-to-head competition between the two schools.

[ikiru36]

This would make sense if the idea of the Carlyle Cup was to award the best athletic department. However, it's about the head-to-head competition between the two schools.

Fair enough and absolutely valid I imagine.

(though I really thought it was created to help sell jewelry :0)

Let's at least get a current year's performance tie breaker in there/no way for there to be a numerical tie.

Go Duke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pdth78]

This is basically an "Athletic Dept. Match Play" set up using (I assume) all of the sports both schools offer.

By my count, Duke and Carolina competed 33 times in the 2006-07 season Carlyle Cup. Duke won 19 of those events.

Since match play is applied, only 26 points are available. I will call it "modified" Match Play since Football, Mens Basketball, and Womens Basketball each are worth 2 points instead of 1 like all the other sports.

If the arrangement was purely Match Play (one point for each sport)...Duke would win 12-11. The double weighting of B-ball is not as dramatic for us...these teams play at least 2-3 times each year to earn the 2 points. One game of FB is a bad deal for Duke when 2pts are at stake. It would be fairer to all the competitors if the scoring was brought back to 1 point per eligible sport.

[hughgs]

This is basically an "Athletic Dept. Match Play" set up using (I assume) all of the sports both schools offer.

By my count, Duke and Carolina competed 33 times in the 2006-07 season Carlyle Cup. Duke won 19 of those events.

Since match play is applied, only 26 points are available. I will call it "modified" Match Play since Football, Mens Basketball, and Womens Basketball each are worth 2 points instead of 1 like all the other sports.

If the arrangement was purely Match Play (one point for each sport)...Duke would win 12-11. The double weighting of B-ball is not as dramatic for us...these teams play at least 2-3 times each year to earn the 2 points. One game of FB is a bad deal for Duke when 2pts are at stake. It would be fairer to all the competitors if the scoring was brought back to 1 point per eligible sport.

It's not quite that easy. The competition has to account for the difference between the scholarships that the different schools offer and also for the revenue sports as recognized by the different schools. This is part of the rational given for changing the scoring a few years ago.

[pdth78]

Why do scholarships need to muddy this water?

Mens Lax involved 2 nationally ranked programs and ONE point was available.

Football weighs in with 2 points for the leats mediocre program.

Simplify.

[hughgs]

Why do scholarships need to muddy this water?

Mens Lax involved 2 nationally ranked programs and ONE point was available.

Football weighs in with 2 points for the leats mediocre program.

Simplify.

National rankings don't matter. Once again, it's a contest between UNC and Duke, not how well UNC and Duke do nationally.

I'm not defending the point system, just relating the reasons I read concerning the changes to the point system that was made in the past. One cited reason was that the sports are not equally endowed. A prime example was wrestling. Swimming was also cited a couple of years ago, but the scholarship discrepancy may be changing since Duke got a new coach.

[gep]

Hi... I'm not on either side of this debate on tie-breakers... but as I read through these posts, it occurred to me that, most probably, this discussion of tie-breakers would not be happening if Duke currently had the Cup, and would keep it in case of a tie. I think Duke and UNC had to come up with something, and if it needs tweaking, I hope the powers-that-be can agree on something. (just my 2 cents)... thanks...